February 1, 2022 • 32 mins
Korean-American author and teacher Min Jin Lee and Glory chat about how Lee’s work on and off the page constantly challenges society to change. They also talk about how reading can radicalize young people and through stories we can create a version of the world we want to see.
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:37):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisionist History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus and Apple podcast subscriptions. I think
(01:06):
the hardest thing about writing a memoir in any form,
any length is stepping forward. It's just like the act
of stepping forward. So I want you to understand that
what you're doing is also an active resistance. Ninjin Lee
knows a lot about resistance. As a writer, professor, and advocate.
(01:31):
She has spent her career pushing back against the patriarchy
racism in her community and encouraging a new generation of
readers to do the same. In her writing, Men reminds
us not to let the choices we've made for ourselves
to be our only story. In her activism, Men give
(01:51):
space to emerging writers, knowing that the path to creating
work is filled with roadblocks, especially for women. Of color.
Her career has given us a model to follow where
being your complete self is its own act of resistance.
(02:25):
Welcome to well Bred Black Girl, the literary kickback you
didn't know you need it. I'm your host, Glory Adam.
Each week, I'll speak with my favorite authors, makers, and
thinkers about how they found their voice, hone their craft,
navigated publishing, and showed up in the world. After the Break,
(02:46):
author Minjin Lee and I will talk about her early career,
how she advocates for young authors, and what she has
learned about being an immigrant writer. Menjin Lee was a
(03:09):
student of bellehook not just in the classroom, but in life,
immigrating to the US when she was seven years old.
Growing up in Queens, New York, Lee was a young
lawyer before she left to follow her calling becoming a writer.
In college, she learned from the one and only Belle
Hooks that community and the power of her ethics define
(03:33):
how she moves through the world. Like Belle Hooks, men
Jin Lee is encouraging young writers and mentoring emerging artists
of color in an industry not built for them. In
her acclaimed novels, but Chinko and Free Food for millionaires.
She speaks to the immigrant experience. In her upcoming memoir,
she will open the door to her personal journey of
(03:56):
self discovery and how creating the world you wish to
live in is within reach. I spoke to Men a
few weeks before bell Hooks is passing, so there won't
be any mention of that in our conversation. You can
hear the joy, the sheer joy, in Men's voice whenever
she speaks of her teacher. I remember the first time
(04:26):
meeting you. We were no, no, this was actually at
book expo. Oh, yes, we were ever years ago, I know,
And I remember this was like the very beginning of
Well Read Black Girl, and I was like so nervous.
I was like, oh, I'm gonna have lunch with men,
Like what do I do? Like should I bring something?
And you were just so kind and so generous because
(04:48):
I was struggling, like I don't belong people aren't going
to take me seriously, and you were just like, stop it.
You're here, You're enough, and you belong here. And this
was in the first five minutes of us meeting each other. Oh. Well,
you know, it's funny because whenever I see young folks
going author and doing things they want to do. I
(05:09):
just feel like, what and I do to build some
part of your scaffolding because I didn't have so much
to that in my publishing career. I think that is
what keeps you at the forefronts creatively and otherwise, because
you're thinking in a way that's progressive. It's moving us forward.
Oh thank you. It's so interesting because you're not only
(05:31):
a phenomenal writer, you're also an incredible lawyer as well,
and your trajectory has just had so many unconventional turns weird.
But can we start at the beginning on how you
even decided to write this story? How you even change
from becoming a lawyer to being a writer? Oh gosh,
I was. I was twenty five when I was really
(05:52):
unhappy as a lawyer, and then twenty six I was
still working really hard as a lawyer. And then one
day I got a really super hard assignment after finishing
another super hard assignment, and I'd build three hundred hours
in the office in a month, and I thought, I
can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. And
then I wrote my first novel, which God rejected everywhere.
(06:16):
I wrote a second novel which was a precursor to Pachinko.
And then I wrote another novel which became Free Food
for Millionaires, which I published in two thousand and seven,
So I quit in nineteen ninety five, and then I
published in two thousand and seven, which means it took
twelve years to publish a book. So when I seem
grateful to have published two books, it comes out of
(06:39):
this space of it takes longer for us. Yeah, it
just takes longer for us. It takes longer for women.
It takes longer for women of color. It takes longer
for people of color. It takes longer if you don't
have connections, if you don't have powerful friends, And it's fine,
(07:00):
you just keep going, You just keep going. But it
motivated me to write Pachinko, which is my second book,
was a story that I heard in college, and I
carried that with me. Yeah, I love the first line
of Pinchingko. History has failed us, but no matter. And
I'm thinking so much of the present moment and the
work that you do, as I mean, would you call
(07:23):
yourself a historian? Oh golly, you know that's a real
honorific for me, because I have so much respect for
history and for historians. I try to approach it like
a journalist, historians, sociologist, anthropologist, and a little bit like
a legal person because I'm so pissed about everything, Like
(07:47):
I'm so angry about everything around the world, because I'm
so disappointed. People don't think I'm an angry person when
they meet me, but inside I'm pissed. I just want
you to know that behind a smile, I'm really angry
because I think things are so unfair. I think things
are so unfair, and I think it's because I'm so
attached to fairness for the world, for everybody, and trying
(08:10):
to figure out, well, how does my work as a
writer approach that, what can I do to sort of
create change? And somewhere along the line, I've decided that somehow,
telling stories, either in fiction or in nonfiction, we can
approach a new reality. So even though I'm writing history
for my second book, in a way, I'm actually creating
(08:33):
a new version of the world that I want. Yes, yes,
I'm listening. Way, I really believe in moving towards things
that will, you know, impact our life for the good,
because I think that, like there's something to be said
about this responsibility of telling stories when it comes to
being a person of color, being a black woman, and
(08:54):
to tell them accurately. Right, let's make sure we're like
represented in a right way, because we know what it's
like to have our history forgotten and a raised and
to be not cited. So in a lot of ways,
we are like using our writing to correct their storical record.
You know, we're thinking of our collective communities, and we're
using terms like writer of color, you know, Asian American,
(09:17):
African American. Can you talk about what it's meant for
you to really, you know, interact with those terms, whether
it's writer of color or Asian American, And to what
extent those have been, you know, identity markers for you
or even like shaped have you how you see yourself
and how you share your work with the world. I
(09:40):
think there are many, many, many writers in my respective
community who really hate those terms. Hatea Yeah, they'll say,
don't call me an immigrant writer, don't call me an
Asian American writer, don't call me a feminist, don't call
me this. And I understand that, I totally understand that.
But I am an immigrant writer. I am a daughter
(10:04):
of refugee. I lean into it. I lean into it
because I like being Korean a lot. I'm not saying
they don't. I'm not leaving it at the door. Like
I'm a Presbyterian. It's like a really weird thing in
my community that I go to church, but it is
who I am. It is the way I think about
(10:24):
the world, and I have just decided that that's just
the way I work, and I like it. I write
about Korean people, and yes, there are people too, but
they're also Korean people. It's a very specific thing, you know.
I think the way we're understood is something that we
can control somewhat, but not one hundred percent. But I
(10:48):
feel a very strong sense of getting things right I do.
I am going to share a quote with you, one
of my favorite quotes. Sometimes people try to destroy you
precisely because they recognize your power, not because they don't
see it, but because they see it and they don't
want it to exist. And that is from the one
and only Bellehooks, who is your professor at one point
(11:09):
and one of the writers that influences you. Oh my gosh,
oh my gosh. Well, just so much respect for Bell Hooks.
What a pioneer of thinking, what a pioneer of intellectual magnitude,
And I feel like she really doesn't get the kind
of credit that she deserves. Do you have like a
(11:31):
memory of being and Belle Hooks's class or anything that
you'd like to share with us. Oh, I've took two
of her classes, So I remember being a young person
thinking my life is changing, My life is changing because
I value my thoughts as a thinker. Now that may
(11:53):
seem like a dumb thing for other people, but for me,
I didn't see myself as an intellectual. Like witnessing Belle Hooks,
Gloria Watkins honoring our thoughts collectively and individually and thinking
about what we said really seriously, you start to wonder, oh,
maybe I matter, Like maybe the things that I say matter.
(12:14):
And it wasn't like when I was a child or
even a young person people walked around and saying like, Oh,
tell me, what do you think? They were waiting for
my great thoughts or my great words. So in a way,
to be in the presence of such a great mind,
it's really quite an honor. And she was so clear
(12:35):
about the brilliance of the literature created by black women
in this country, and and she made us see the
books not just for what they are beautiful artworks, but
also contextually. And I think that really changed me. It
really really changed me. And I didn't even know I
was being changed in that moment. And that's the power
(12:57):
that you have as a great person, I think, Yeah,
that was the same reaction for me encountering Bellhooks. It
was just like a media belonging. And then she also
allows you to question the things that you don't understand.
She is like encouraging you to question your own position
and your own power. And I don't think I had
done that before encountering her work. Yeah. And the other
(13:18):
person who really changed me, and I never had a
chance to meet her as Audrey Lord. I read her
at the same time. Yes, there's something to be said
about reading something and being completely and instantly ragalized, Like
you're just like, my life is changing through reading this
because I can see another way and recalling those moments
as first encountering Audrey Lord and Belle Hooks. As a teacher,
(13:42):
how do you then share that information with your students?
That what a great question, Glory, what a great question.
Instant radicalization right that scares people and I'm like, no, no, no, no,
you need this like you need water and air. And
it's not radicalization of the way people think of something scary.
(14:02):
It's a wonderful, powerful thing. Yeah. And I want to
talk about the importance of Audrey Lord's work and Belle
Hoax's work and the other persons can really crunch on
the word just a one word, intersectionality. Yes, just that
one word. If you understand that one word, you can
understand why your life is complicated and how your identities
(14:30):
are so complicated. And it's a good thing, not a
bad thing. And I can't leave part of it at
the door whenever you just want me to. Yes, I
got to bring it in. And I think the way
they have advanced philosophy and thought in the world is
not being acknowledged. So to go back to your question,
how do I share this enthusiasm with my students, I
(14:51):
say exactly what I just said to you right now,
which is, please don't be scared. Please don't politicize it
in a negative way just because you don't understand it.
And also because white supremacy prohibits us from thinking about
women of color and bipoc women as philosophers as intellectual
(15:12):
thought leaders. That's going to prevent you from getting your
superpowers because I'm always saying, hey, you want knowledge, you
want knowledge from everywhere, and then you want to give
it credit around the globe, not just in a little
tiny shelf in a bookstore. I'm Glory Adam, and this
(15:42):
is well read, black girl. I'm speaking with men gin Lee.
This conversation reminds me of a picture you shared on
social media a while ago. It's this beautiful black and
white photo of you reading on the D train in
New York. There's Grapeitia all over the train and you
look so cheek. I'm like, she's fifteen in this picture.
She looks like a model, so amazing. But what would
(16:02):
you tell, like young fifteen year old men about the
woman you've become, the experiences you've had. What would be
the advice to her? Oh? I love that photograph. It
was taken because Smithsonian Magazine did a feature on my
high school, the Bronx High School of Science, and I
was one of the kids, so they profiled and I
(16:23):
didn't know about that photograph until much later. But in
that photograph, and I mentioned this because I think that
your listeners might understand I'm wearing a thrift store coat,
like I paid fifteen dollars that coat, and I was
wearing my little Mickey mouse pin because a friend of
mine gave it to me, and I thought I looked
so cool. And then years later I read an essay
(16:48):
by Bell Hooks about it was like really like one
of these like seven hundred word essays or something about
how she had gone to a country in Africa and
she had gone into a tiny hut and it was
really spare and clean and beautifully swept, and she said
it was like a monk's cell, and there was so
much beauty in it. And then she made this argument
(17:10):
that being poor doesn't mean that you don't understand aesthetics
or beauty. Right. So this is the thing that I
wanted to say about that image and about being a
young person, is I didn't have much, but I felt
good about myself and I thought I could create beauty
(17:32):
even from a thrift store. I thought that I could
be cool with my little broken down knapsack, my fifteen
dollars a coat, because in my mind I was powerful
as a reader. I was reading a book in Spanish,
like how cool am I I was reading Borhees in Spanish,
(17:54):
and you know, it was a free book. It wasn't
even my book. It was a book from school. And
I'm wearing my dorky glasses. But in my little mind,
in my kind of fantasy mind, I was creating me
and I thought, even though nobody knew, I thought that
I could do it. And that's the thing I really
(18:16):
want young people to keep. I love em, I love
you more. I do want to talk to you about
your memoir. I know you're working on name Recognition and
the memoir of Visibility and Voice, And what is that
experience for you right now writing that and reflecting on
your life. Are there moments that you're really honing in on.
(18:38):
Is it something that feels at a fine I'm working
on a memoir right now and it feels terrified. So
I'm very curious about how this experience for you after
writing these two incredible novels. What is it like to
tell your own story? Oh, it's really scary. It's really scary.
But I write a lot of essays and some people
say they're really easy to write. They're so hard for
(19:00):
me to write. They're hard for me to write because
if you're really honest, you realize that you're going to
walk out there naked. So when you look at the
cellulait of your life and you're thinking, well, are people
going to judge me? And you're like, yeah, some people
are going to judge you, but how else will they
know you? And I think working on name recognition is
(19:23):
all about how do we as PIPOC women feel about
being known? Right? And I really wonder what you think
about this glory It's yeah, what it is like you
have to really like strip down to your core and
you have to be like you said, you have to
be messy, and you have to be unafraid of being vulnerable.
Like it requires you to put your full self out
(19:44):
there because when you share the you know, the story
of messing up or failing or taking a risk like
that is what brings people closer. But I've been trying
my hardest to really put it all out there in
the memoir, like because I've been thinking of it as
a legacy piece too, like this is my family story,
this is the story my son's gonna read. And I
guess like the messiest part of my story is definitely
(20:06):
like you know, how I experience my mom's depression and
how that impact in my life life and how I
essentially turned to books as a sense of like healing
and therapy. But that's very scary to talk about, you know,
But I also recognize how that can help so many
people who have been in similar situations or you know,
being like first generation, being the oldest daughter, like all
(20:27):
these things. If I'm brave enough to share it can
really help other people. But it is a challenge for
shore men because it's like it's your life. You know.
What you're talking about right now is really an active service.
And I've thought about this a lot, because if you
have a love ethic and you have a service ethic,
(20:49):
and BIPAC women are essentially trained for service. That's true. However,
if you took that idea and allegorized it in terms
of our intellectual work as well, in honor and in
service to our mothers and our grandmothers, our aunts who
didn't get this opportunity, because why did we get this education,
(21:11):
why did we get people in our lives and our communities?
How do we create a sense of service of telling
the truth about how difficult it was? Yeah, because what
does depression mean for BIPOC women's lives, especially if you
are working so hard but telling that story glory, it's
so important to recognize it's also a story of service
(21:35):
plus love for your mom. Like we keep thinking about posterity.
It's like, oh, this is the record that we leave behind. Yes,
that's true, but perhaps that is the record that you
need to create in order for you to move ahead.
You're going to make me cry because it is so true.
It feels like it's something that I want to not
(21:56):
only acknowledge for my son and for my mother, but
for myself too, you know, to like write down my
complete journey and acknowledge it and move forward from it
telling a new story. So it has taken a lot
of time energy to really even get to that place
of Okay, I can say this, and I can say
this without being afraid. I have a question for you.
(22:17):
Am I allowed to ask you a question? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
go ahead. How did your mom feel about you writing
your book? Oh? Man, it's been like in the beginning,
because it's been like three years now, but in the
beginning she was very like we were doing interviews and
we were going back and forth, and as it's gotten longer,
I think she's just like more skeptical. She's like, what
are you writing? Why is it thinking so long? You know,
(22:39):
well you just had a baby. Yeah, yeah, that too.
But she's very supportive, but I think she is curious
about like what the story fully will be and she
always reminds me, like, you know, make sure you were
telling it from your perspective, and it brought us closer
to it definitely has brought us a lot closer. I
love that. I think the hardest thing about writing a
(23:03):
memoir in any form, any length is stepping forward. It's
just like the act of stopping forward. So I want
you to understand that what you're doing is also an
active resistance. Thank you, Thank you man, Thank you for
just encouragement and just like the clarity of your voice,
because even having your friendship is also so valuable and
(23:26):
it gives me like this, I'm like, I can do it.
I can do this, and I can't. I can't be
afraid of it. And even when I am afraid, I'm
going to do it anyway. I'm mentioned Lee and you're
listening to well read Black Girl. Oh we're gonna do
(23:49):
rapid fire questions. Oh that's what we're gonna do. We're
gonna do some fun questions that are gonna be said.
Boom boom boom. Okay, first thing, name three things on
your desk, teapot um, your plugs, and my bible? Awesome.
What are your top three favorite pieces of candy? I
(24:10):
love Snickers, good one. I also like Mary Jane. That's
a very old school candy. And I also liked Toots
year Olds. Oh yeah, that's another class of candy. I
used to love the City Pops, Oh delicious. Okay. What
was the last movie you watched? Oh, Eternals. It's directed
by Chloe Joe and I was so amazed that she
(24:32):
made a Marvel movie. You know, it's quite something. I
have to see that. I love Marvel movies. Okay. Last one.
Favorite birthday traditions. I buy myself a present. Is it
like something lavish or is it just like something like
you're like, I have to get myself a present every year.
(24:52):
I'll buy something really nice. I will, And I think
it's because I grew up without having any birthday parties
and hardly any presents, like just because my parents are
always working and we need have money. And now that
I'm older, like I'll just go out and get myself
what I like. And I think it's maybe it's just
stave off being disappointed. It's a little bit of that.
(25:13):
I'm really worried that I'll be disappointed. I'll be like,
I'm going to take care of this by myself. I'm
sorry if that sounds unexpectant and probably not terribly optimistic,
but no, I'm it's so funny. Maybe it's like the
scorpion you because I do something similar where I give
my Like our family we do in exchange and we
basically give a list of three things, or like, these
(25:34):
are the three things that I like, and to surprise me,
you pick one of the three things. I'm going to
control my surprise menu, right right, So I'm still surprised,
but these are the three things. So we do that
every year. That's like how we do our holiday gifts.
We have to do our goodbyes, but I want to
I don't want to say goodbye. I know, I literally
(25:55):
I wish I could telepoort into your living room. I
love you so much. I'm so grateful. I'll make your
breakfast glory. But also I'm so proud of you glory.
I'm really proud of you. I think that you're doing
such a good thing for all people of color. Yeah,
I don't actually think it's just for our community. Our presence,
our visibility, our work makes a difference for everybody. Whenever
(26:20):
men and I speak, I come away learning so much
about writing and to be honest myself. Men's love, ethic
and her care for students, her readers, her community are
so inspiring. When I first read Patchenko, I was awe
struck by some of the themes she took on, like
(26:41):
motherhood and finding your home. Her writing has continue to
encourage writers and readers around the world. But what I
really aspire to is her honesty. She wants us to
get angry, fight the injustices in the world, and she
supports us in our convictions. Her writing is her superpower,
(27:03):
and we should all aspire to her strength. We'll be
right back with one of our Well Read Black Girl
book club members. We love our community. It's what makes
(27:35):
Well Red Black Girl such a warm, safe space for
so many readers. Right now, we're going to check in
with one of our book club members, Patrushka Basin Larson
in Harlem. She's a woman of many talents. She's a
member of the Well Read Black Girl community, a professor
at City University of New York, and a business coach.
Most importantly, she is the co founder of sugar Hill Creamery,
(27:57):
one of my favorite ice cream shops. Welcome, Patricia, Hi Glory.
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Tell me about your experience in the Well Read Black
Girl book Club and how is it different from other
book clubs you've been a part of in the past.
As a person who likes to read and who has
organized her own book clubs as well as been a
(28:18):
part of others, what has been so amazing about the
Waldweed Black Girl community has just been the representation, the
quality of books, and the conversations that happen as a result.
I am always here for a sister circle with people
that I know and don't know. And that is exactly
the vibe that I have always gotten when being in
amidst other Waldwere Black Girl book club members, when they're
(28:40):
sitting around the table talking about a text that we've
all read. I love that. It makes me think of
Paul Marshall and this idea of sitting around the kitchen
table together. That is like the space and the energy
we're always trying to cultivate. We want to be in community,
but we also want to be in solidarity because you
are a mother and you are such a wonderful community advocate.
(29:03):
How do we get more young people, more young women,
more students, just how do we get them interested in
reading the way that we teach us by doing, We
don't teach by saying, And so how do we get
more young people reading? Well? Well read black girl right
like having spaces of community around the written word such
(29:27):
that it's represented. So just continuing to do what you do,
glory and inspiring others to do the same. Thank you
for Jushka. For more of our conversation, be sure to
check out our bookmark series on pushkin Plus. Thank you
(29:50):
so much for joining me speaking with men gen Lee
about being vulnerable, about telling our own stories and in
the process, discovering your own inter stringth it's actually a gift.
In the episodes ahead, I'll be speaking with Anita Hill,
Jacqueline Woodson, and Gabrielle Union in honor of the incomparable
(30:13):
Bell Hooks, whom we lost in twenty twenty one. I
would leave you with these words from her, when we
dare to speak in a liberatory voice when we threaten
even those who may initially claim to want our words.
In the act of overcoming our fear of speech, of
being seen as threatening, and the process of learning to
(30:35):
speak as subjects, we participate in the global struggle to
end domination when we end our silence. When we speak
in a liberated voice, our words connect us with anyone
anywhere who lives in silence. Well Read black Girl is
(31:05):
a production of Pushkin Industries. It is written and hosted
by me Glory Eta and produced by Scher Vincent and
Brittany Brown. Our associate editor is Keishell Williams, Our engineer
is Amanda ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias.
Special thanks this week to Vicki Merrick. Our executive producers
(31:29):
are Mia Lobell and Leet Hall Molad. At Pushkin, thanks
to Heather Fane, Carly Migliori, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and
Jacob Wiseberg. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram
at Well Read black Girl. You can find Pushkin and
all social media platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can
(31:50):
sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If
you love this show and others from Pushkin industry, consider
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that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four ninety
nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions,
(32:11):
and if you're already a subscriber, make sure to check
out my exclusive Bookmark series on Pushkin Plus. Starting on
February eighteenth. You'll hear extended interviews with book club members,
bookstore owners, and more. And do you get to hear
What's on my mind, What's on my radar, and of
course what's on my reading list each week. To find
(32:33):
more pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you like to listen
Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:37):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisionist History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus and Apple podcast subscriptions. I think
(01:06):
the hardest thing about writing a memoir in any form,
any length is stepping forward. It's just like the act
of stepping forward. So I want you to understand that
what you're doing is also an active resistance. Ninjin Lee
knows a lot about resistance. As a writer, professor, and advocate.
(01:31):
She has spent her career pushing back against the patriarchy
racism in her community and encouraging a new generation of
readers to do the same. In her writing, Men reminds
us not to let the choices we've made for ourselves
to be our only story. In her activism, Men give
(01:51):
space to emerging writers, knowing that the path to creating
work is filled with roadblocks, especially for women. Of color.
Her career has given us a model to follow where
being your complete self is its own act of resistance.
(02:25):
Welcome to well Bred Black Girl, the literary kickback you
didn't know you need it. I'm your host, Glory Adam.
Each week, I'll speak with my favorite authors, makers, and
thinkers about how they found their voice, hone their craft,
navigated publishing, and showed up in the world. After the Break,
(02:46):
author Minjin Lee and I will talk about her early career,
how she advocates for young authors, and what she has
learned about being an immigrant writer. Menjin Lee was a
(03:09):
student of bellehook not just in the classroom, but in life,
immigrating to the US when she was seven years old.
Growing up in Queens, New York, Lee was a young
lawyer before she left to follow her calling becoming a writer.
In college, she learned from the one and only Belle
Hooks that community and the power of her ethics define
(03:33):
how she moves through the world. Like Belle Hooks, men
Jin Lee is encouraging young writers and mentoring emerging artists
of color in an industry not built for them. In
her acclaimed novels, but Chinko and Free Food for millionaires.
She speaks to the immigrant experience. In her upcoming memoir,
she will open the door to her personal journey of
(03:56):
self discovery and how creating the world you wish to
live in is within reach. I spoke to Men a
few weeks before bell Hooks is passing, so there won't
be any mention of that in our conversation. You can
hear the joy, the sheer joy, in Men's voice whenever
she speaks of her teacher. I remember the first time
(04:26):
meeting you. We were no, no, this was actually at
book expo. Oh, yes, we were ever years ago, I know,
And I remember this was like the very beginning of
Well Read Black Girl, and I was like so nervous.
I was like, oh, I'm gonna have lunch with men,
Like what do I do? Like should I bring something?
And you were just so kind and so generous because
(04:48):
I was struggling, like I don't belong people aren't going
to take me seriously, and you were just like, stop it.
You're here, You're enough, and you belong here. And this
was in the first five minutes of us meeting each other. Oh. Well,
you know, it's funny because whenever I see young folks
going author and doing things they want to do. I
(05:09):
just feel like, what and I do to build some
part of your scaffolding because I didn't have so much
to that in my publishing career. I think that is
what keeps you at the forefronts creatively and otherwise, because
you're thinking in a way that's progressive. It's moving us forward.
Oh thank you. It's so interesting because you're not only
(05:31):
a phenomenal writer, you're also an incredible lawyer as well,
and your trajectory has just had so many unconventional turns weird.
But can we start at the beginning on how you
even decided to write this story? How you even change
from becoming a lawyer to being a writer? Oh gosh,
I was. I was twenty five when I was really
(05:52):
unhappy as a lawyer, and then twenty six I was
still working really hard as a lawyer. And then one
day I got a really super hard assignment after finishing
another super hard assignment, and I'd build three hundred hours
in the office in a month, and I thought, I
can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. And
then I wrote my first novel, which God rejected everywhere.
(06:16):
I wrote a second novel which was a precursor to Pachinko.
And then I wrote another novel which became Free Food
for Millionaires, which I published in two thousand and seven,
So I quit in nineteen ninety five, and then I
published in two thousand and seven, which means it took
twelve years to publish a book. So when I seem
grateful to have published two books, it comes out of
(06:39):
this space of it takes longer for us. Yeah, it
just takes longer for us. It takes longer for women.
It takes longer for women of color. It takes longer
for people of color. It takes longer if you don't
have connections, if you don't have powerful friends, And it's fine,
(07:00):
you just keep going, You just keep going. But it
motivated me to write Pachinko, which is my second book,
was a story that I heard in college, and I
carried that with me. Yeah, I love the first line
of Pinchingko. History has failed us, but no matter. And
I'm thinking so much of the present moment and the
work that you do, as I mean, would you call
(07:23):
yourself a historian? Oh golly, you know that's a real
honorific for me, because I have so much respect for
history and for historians. I try to approach it like
a journalist, historians, sociologist, anthropologist, and a little bit like
a legal person because I'm so pissed about everything, Like
(07:47):
I'm so angry about everything around the world, because I'm
so disappointed. People don't think I'm an angry person when
they meet me, but inside I'm pissed. I just want
you to know that behind a smile, I'm really angry
because I think things are so unfair. I think things
are so unfair, and I think it's because I'm so
attached to fairness for the world, for everybody, and trying
(08:10):
to figure out, well, how does my work as a
writer approach that, what can I do to sort of
create change? And somewhere along the line, I've decided that somehow,
telling stories, either in fiction or in nonfiction, we can
approach a new reality. So even though I'm writing history
for my second book, in a way, I'm actually creating
(08:33):
a new version of the world that I want. Yes, yes,
I'm listening. Way, I really believe in moving towards things
that will, you know, impact our life for the good,
because I think that, like there's something to be said
about this responsibility of telling stories when it comes to
being a person of color, being a black woman, and
(08:54):
to tell them accurately. Right, let's make sure we're like
represented in a right way, because we know what it's
like to have our history forgotten and a raised and
to be not cited. So in a lot of ways,
we are like using our writing to correct their storical record.
You know, we're thinking of our collective communities, and we're
using terms like writer of color, you know, Asian American,
(09:17):
African American. Can you talk about what it's meant for
you to really, you know, interact with those terms, whether
it's writer of color or Asian American, And to what
extent those have been, you know, identity markers for you
or even like shaped have you how you see yourself
and how you share your work with the world. I
(09:40):
think there are many, many, many writers in my respective
community who really hate those terms. Hatea Yeah, they'll say,
don't call me an immigrant writer, don't call me an
Asian American writer, don't call me a feminist, don't call
me this. And I understand that, I totally understand that.
But I am an immigrant writer. I am a daughter
(10:04):
of refugee. I lean into it. I lean into it
because I like being Korean a lot. I'm not saying
they don't. I'm not leaving it at the door. Like
I'm a Presbyterian. It's like a really weird thing in
my community that I go to church, but it is
who I am. It is the way I think about
(10:24):
the world, and I have just decided that that's just
the way I work, and I like it. I write
about Korean people, and yes, there are people too, but
they're also Korean people. It's a very specific thing, you know.
I think the way we're understood is something that we
can control somewhat, but not one hundred percent. But I
(10:48):
feel a very strong sense of getting things right I do.
I am going to share a quote with you, one
of my favorite quotes. Sometimes people try to destroy you
precisely because they recognize your power, not because they don't
see it, but because they see it and they don't
want it to exist. And that is from the one
and only Bellehooks, who is your professor at one point
(11:09):
and one of the writers that influences you. Oh my gosh,
oh my gosh. Well, just so much respect for Bell Hooks.
What a pioneer of thinking, what a pioneer of intellectual magnitude,
And I feel like she really doesn't get the kind
of credit that she deserves. Do you have like a
(11:31):
memory of being and Belle Hooks's class or anything that
you'd like to share with us. Oh, I've took two
of her classes, So I remember being a young person
thinking my life is changing, My life is changing because
I value my thoughts as a thinker. Now that may
(11:53):
seem like a dumb thing for other people, but for me,
I didn't see myself as an intellectual. Like witnessing Belle Hooks,
Gloria Watkins honoring our thoughts collectively and individually and thinking
about what we said really seriously, you start to wonder, oh,
maybe I matter, Like maybe the things that I say matter.
(12:14):
And it wasn't like when I was a child or
even a young person people walked around and saying like, Oh,
tell me, what do you think? They were waiting for
my great thoughts or my great words. So in a way,
to be in the presence of such a great mind,
it's really quite an honor. And she was so clear
(12:35):
about the brilliance of the literature created by black women
in this country, and and she made us see the
books not just for what they are beautiful artworks, but
also contextually. And I think that really changed me. It
really really changed me. And I didn't even know I
was being changed in that moment. And that's the power
(12:57):
that you have as a great person, I think, Yeah,
that was the same reaction for me encountering Bellhooks. It
was just like a media belonging. And then she also
allows you to question the things that you don't understand.
She is like encouraging you to question your own position
and your own power. And I don't think I had
done that before encountering her work. Yeah. And the other
(13:18):
person who really changed me, and I never had a
chance to meet her as Audrey Lord. I read her
at the same time. Yes, there's something to be said
about reading something and being completely and instantly ragalized, Like
you're just like, my life is changing through reading this
because I can see another way and recalling those moments
as first encountering Audrey Lord and Belle Hooks. As a teacher,
(13:42):
how do you then share that information with your students?
That what a great question, Glory, what a great question.
Instant radicalization right that scares people and I'm like, no, no, no, no,
you need this like you need water and air. And
it's not radicalization of the way people think of something scary.
(14:02):
It's a wonderful, powerful thing. Yeah. And I want to
talk about the importance of Audrey Lord's work and Belle
Hoax's work and the other persons can really crunch on
the word just a one word, intersectionality. Yes, just that
one word. If you understand that one word, you can
understand why your life is complicated and how your identities
(14:30):
are so complicated. And it's a good thing, not a
bad thing. And I can't leave part of it at
the door whenever you just want me to. Yes, I
got to bring it in. And I think the way
they have advanced philosophy and thought in the world is
not being acknowledged. So to go back to your question,
how do I share this enthusiasm with my students, I
(14:51):
say exactly what I just said to you right now,
which is, please don't be scared. Please don't politicize it
in a negative way just because you don't understand it.
And also because white supremacy prohibits us from thinking about
women of color and bipoc women as philosophers as intellectual
(15:12):
thought leaders. That's going to prevent you from getting your
superpowers because I'm always saying, hey, you want knowledge, you
want knowledge from everywhere, and then you want to give
it credit around the globe, not just in a little
tiny shelf in a bookstore. I'm Glory Adam, and this
(15:42):
is well read, black girl. I'm speaking with men gin Lee.
This conversation reminds me of a picture you shared on
social media a while ago. It's this beautiful black and
white photo of you reading on the D train in
New York. There's Grapeitia all over the train and you
look so cheek. I'm like, she's fifteen in this picture.
She looks like a model, so amazing. But what would
(16:02):
you tell, like young fifteen year old men about the
woman you've become, the experiences you've had. What would be
the advice to her? Oh? I love that photograph. It
was taken because Smithsonian Magazine did a feature on my
high school, the Bronx High School of Science, and I
was one of the kids, so they profiled and I
(16:23):
didn't know about that photograph until much later. But in
that photograph, and I mentioned this because I think that
your listeners might understand I'm wearing a thrift store coat,
like I paid fifteen dollars that coat, and I was
wearing my little Mickey mouse pin because a friend of
mine gave it to me, and I thought I looked
so cool. And then years later I read an essay
(16:48):
by Bell Hooks about it was like really like one
of these like seven hundred word essays or something about
how she had gone to a country in Africa and
she had gone into a tiny hut and it was
really spare and clean and beautifully swept, and she said
it was like a monk's cell, and there was so
much beauty in it. And then she made this argument
(17:10):
that being poor doesn't mean that you don't understand aesthetics
or beauty. Right. So this is the thing that I
wanted to say about that image and about being a
young person, is I didn't have much, but I felt
good about myself and I thought I could create beauty
(17:32):
even from a thrift store. I thought that I could
be cool with my little broken down knapsack, my fifteen
dollars a coat, because in my mind I was powerful
as a reader. I was reading a book in Spanish,
like how cool am I I was reading Borhees in Spanish,
(17:54):
and you know, it was a free book. It wasn't
even my book. It was a book from school. And
I'm wearing my dorky glasses. But in my little mind,
in my kind of fantasy mind, I was creating me
and I thought, even though nobody knew, I thought that
I could do it. And that's the thing I really
(18:16):
want young people to keep. I love em, I love
you more. I do want to talk to you about
your memoir. I know you're working on name Recognition and
the memoir of Visibility and Voice, And what is that
experience for you right now writing that and reflecting on
your life. Are there moments that you're really honing in on.
(18:38):
Is it something that feels at a fine I'm working
on a memoir right now and it feels terrified. So
I'm very curious about how this experience for you after
writing these two incredible novels. What is it like to
tell your own story? Oh, it's really scary. It's really scary.
But I write a lot of essays and some people
say they're really easy to write. They're so hard for
(19:00):
me to write. They're hard for me to write because
if you're really honest, you realize that you're going to
walk out there naked. So when you look at the
cellulait of your life and you're thinking, well, are people
going to judge me? And you're like, yeah, some people
are going to judge you, but how else will they
know you? And I think working on name recognition is
(19:23):
all about how do we as PIPOC women feel about
being known? Right? And I really wonder what you think
about this glory It's yeah, what it is like you
have to really like strip down to your core and
you have to be like you said, you have to
be messy, and you have to be unafraid of being vulnerable.
Like it requires you to put your full self out
(19:44):
there because when you share the you know, the story
of messing up or failing or taking a risk like
that is what brings people closer. But I've been trying
my hardest to really put it all out there in
the memoir, like because I've been thinking of it as
a legacy piece too, like this is my family story,
this is the story my son's gonna read. And I
guess like the messiest part of my story is definitely
(20:06):
like you know, how I experience my mom's depression and
how that impact in my life life and how I
essentially turned to books as a sense of like healing
and therapy. But that's very scary to talk about, you know,
But I also recognize how that can help so many
people who have been in similar situations or you know,
being like first generation, being the oldest daughter, like all
(20:27):
these things. If I'm brave enough to share it can
really help other people. But it is a challenge for
shore men because it's like it's your life. You know.
What you're talking about right now is really an active service.
And I've thought about this a lot, because if you
have a love ethic and you have a service ethic,
(20:49):
and BIPAC women are essentially trained for service. That's true. However,
if you took that idea and allegorized it in terms
of our intellectual work as well, in honor and in
service to our mothers and our grandmothers, our aunts who
didn't get this opportunity, because why did we get this education,
(21:11):
why did we get people in our lives and our communities?
How do we create a sense of service of telling
the truth about how difficult it was? Yeah, because what
does depression mean for BIPOC women's lives, especially if you
are working so hard but telling that story glory, it's
so important to recognize it's also a story of service
(21:35):
plus love for your mom. Like we keep thinking about posterity.
It's like, oh, this is the record that we leave behind. Yes,
that's true, but perhaps that is the record that you
need to create in order for you to move ahead.
You're going to make me cry because it is so true.
It feels like it's something that I want to not
(21:56):
only acknowledge for my son and for my mother, but
for myself too, you know, to like write down my
complete journey and acknowledge it and move forward from it
telling a new story. So it has taken a lot
of time energy to really even get to that place
of Okay, I can say this, and I can say
this without being afraid. I have a question for you.
(22:17):
Am I allowed to ask you a question? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
go ahead. How did your mom feel about you writing
your book? Oh? Man, it's been like in the beginning,
because it's been like three years now, but in the
beginning she was very like we were doing interviews and
we were going back and forth, and as it's gotten longer,
I think she's just like more skeptical. She's like, what
are you writing? Why is it thinking so long? You know,
(22:39):
well you just had a baby. Yeah, yeah, that too.
But she's very supportive, but I think she is curious
about like what the story fully will be and she
always reminds me, like, you know, make sure you were
telling it from your perspective, and it brought us closer
to it definitely has brought us a lot closer. I
love that. I think the hardest thing about writing a
(23:03):
memoir in any form, any length is stepping forward. It's
just like the act of stopping forward. So I want
you to understand that what you're doing is also an
active resistance. Thank you, Thank you man, Thank you for
just encouragement and just like the clarity of your voice,
because even having your friendship is also so valuable and
(23:26):
it gives me like this, I'm like, I can do it.
I can do this, and I can't. I can't be
afraid of it. And even when I am afraid, I'm
going to do it anyway. I'm mentioned Lee and you're
listening to well read Black Girl. Oh we're gonna do
(23:49):
rapid fire questions. Oh that's what we're gonna do. We're
gonna do some fun questions that are gonna be said.
Boom boom boom. Okay, first thing, name three things on
your desk, teapot um, your plugs, and my bible? Awesome.
What are your top three favorite pieces of candy? I
(24:10):
love Snickers, good one. I also like Mary Jane. That's
a very old school candy. And I also liked Toots
year Olds. Oh yeah, that's another class of candy. I
used to love the City Pops, Oh delicious. Okay. What
was the last movie you watched? Oh, Eternals. It's directed
by Chloe Joe and I was so amazed that she
(24:32):
made a Marvel movie. You know, it's quite something. I
have to see that. I love Marvel movies. Okay. Last one.
Favorite birthday traditions. I buy myself a present. Is it
like something lavish or is it just like something like
you're like, I have to get myself a present every year.
(24:52):
I'll buy something really nice. I will, And I think
it's because I grew up without having any birthday parties
and hardly any presents, like just because my parents are
always working and we need have money. And now that
I'm older, like I'll just go out and get myself
what I like. And I think it's maybe it's just
stave off being disappointed. It's a little bit of that.
(25:13):
I'm really worried that I'll be disappointed. I'll be like,
I'm going to take care of this by myself. I'm
sorry if that sounds unexpectant and probably not terribly optimistic,
but no, I'm it's so funny. Maybe it's like the
scorpion you because I do something similar where I give
my Like our family we do in exchange and we
basically give a list of three things, or like, these
(25:34):
are the three things that I like, and to surprise me,
you pick one of the three things. I'm going to
control my surprise menu, right right, So I'm still surprised,
but these are the three things. So we do that
every year. That's like how we do our holiday gifts.
We have to do our goodbyes, but I want to
I don't want to say goodbye. I know, I literally
(25:55):
I wish I could telepoort into your living room. I
love you so much. I'm so grateful. I'll make your
breakfast glory. But also I'm so proud of you glory.
I'm really proud of you. I think that you're doing
such a good thing for all people of color. Yeah,
I don't actually think it's just for our community. Our presence,
our visibility, our work makes a difference for everybody. Whenever
(26:20):
men and I speak, I come away learning so much
about writing and to be honest myself. Men's love, ethic
and her care for students, her readers, her community are
so inspiring. When I first read Patchenko, I was awe
struck by some of the themes she took on, like
(26:41):
motherhood and finding your home. Her writing has continue to
encourage writers and readers around the world. But what I
really aspire to is her honesty. She wants us to
get angry, fight the injustices in the world, and she
supports us in our convictions. Her writing is her superpower,
(27:03):
and we should all aspire to her strength. We'll be
right back with one of our Well Read Black Girl
book club members. We love our community. It's what makes
(27:35):
Well Red Black Girl such a warm, safe space for
so many readers. Right now, we're going to check in
with one of our book club members, Patrushka Basin Larson
in Harlem. She's a woman of many talents. She's a
member of the Well Read Black Girl community, a professor
at City University of New York, and a business coach.
Most importantly, she is the co founder of sugar Hill Creamery,
(27:57):
one of my favorite ice cream shops. Welcome, Patricia, Hi Glory.
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Tell me about your experience in the Well Read Black
Girl book Club and how is it different from other
book clubs you've been a part of in the past.
As a person who likes to read and who has
organized her own book clubs as well as been a
(28:18):
part of others, what has been so amazing about the
Waldweed Black Girl community has just been the representation, the
quality of books, and the conversations that happen as a result.
I am always here for a sister circle with people
that I know and don't know. And that is exactly
the vibe that I have always gotten when being in
amidst other Waldwere Black Girl book club members, when they're
(28:40):
sitting around the table talking about a text that we've
all read. I love that. It makes me think of
Paul Marshall and this idea of sitting around the kitchen
table together. That is like the space and the energy
we're always trying to cultivate. We want to be in community,
but we also want to be in solidarity because you
are a mother and you are such a wonderful community advocate.
(29:03):
How do we get more young people, more young women,
more students, just how do we get them interested in
reading the way that we teach us by doing, We
don't teach by saying, And so how do we get
more young people reading? Well? Well read black girl right
like having spaces of community around the written word such
(29:27):
that it's represented. So just continuing to do what you do,
glory and inspiring others to do the same. Thank you
for Jushka. For more of our conversation, be sure to
check out our bookmark series on pushkin Plus. Thank you
(29:50):
so much for joining me speaking with men gen Lee
about being vulnerable, about telling our own stories and in
the process, discovering your own inter stringth it's actually a gift.
In the episodes ahead, I'll be speaking with Anita Hill,
Jacqueline Woodson, and Gabrielle Union in honor of the incomparable
(30:13):
Bell Hooks, whom we lost in twenty twenty one. I
would leave you with these words from her, when we
dare to speak in a liberatory voice when we threaten
even those who may initially claim to want our words.
In the act of overcoming our fear of speech, of
being seen as threatening, and the process of learning to
(30:35):
speak as subjects, we participate in the global struggle to
end domination when we end our silence. When we speak
in a liberated voice, our words connect us with anyone
anywhere who lives in silence. Well Read black Girl is
(31:05):
a production of Pushkin Industries. It is written and hosted
by me Glory Eta and produced by Scher Vincent and
Brittany Brown. Our associate editor is Keishell Williams, Our engineer
is Amanda ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias.
Special thanks this week to Vicki Merrick. Our executive producers
(31:29):
are Mia Lobell and Leet Hall Molad. At Pushkin, thanks
to Heather Fane, Carly Migliori, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and
Jacob Wiseberg. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram
at Well Read black Girl. You can find Pushkin and
all social media platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can
(31:50):
sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If
you love this show and others from Pushkin industry, consider
subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription
that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four ninety
nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions,
(32:11):
and if you're already a subscriber, make sure to check
out my exclusive Bookmark series on Pushkin Plus. Starting on
February eighteenth. You'll hear extended interviews with book club members,
bookstore owners, and more. And do you get to hear
What's on my mind, What's on my radar, and of
course what's on my reading list each week. To find
(32:33):
more pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or
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