February 1, 2022 • 35 mins
Glory chats with activist and author Tarana Burke about her memoir Unbound: My Story of Liberation and the Birth of the Me Too Movement, and using her story as a form of activism. In this episode, they also talk about embracing the freedom to be unapologetically Black and how that journey has led to Tarana becoming an author and leader.
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
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(01:02):
up is painful for the southern black girl, being aware
of her displacement is the rust on the razor that
threatens the throat. It is an unnecessary insult. Everybody has
a story, Like so many young people, I found mine
(01:22):
in the words of Maya Angelo. Reading her autobiography made
me care less about being likable. I felt more deserving.
I wasn't sure what exactly because I was twelve, but
I recognized the feelings of worthiness in her work. I
know why The Cage Bird Sings wasn't just an autobiography,
(01:43):
it was a testimony. I wanted to control my narrative
the way she controlled hers. I devoured her books to
understand her audacity. Maya Angelo taught me how to be fearless,
how to live with compassion, and most importantly, how to
tell my story. Welcome to Well Read Black Girl, the
(02:21):
literary kickback you didn't even know you needed. I'm your host,
Gloria Adam. For years, the Well Read Black Girl community
has come together to honor the work of female, fem
and non binary writers of color, and now we're inviting
you to join the party. Each week, I'll be talking
(02:42):
to writers, thinkers, and makers about how they found their
voice home their craft, navigated the wild world of publishing,
and showed up in the world. We moved through the
current cultural moment where art, justice and literature collide, and
pay homage to the literary legacies of the women who
(03:05):
paved the way. You'll hear from bookstore owners, literary a gets,
and Well Read Black Girl book Club members themselves on
what they're reading and what it means to be well read.
After the Break, author and activist Toronto Burke and I
(03:26):
discuss her childhood love for reading, how the Me Too
movement led to her lifelong dream of writing, and how
protecting your story can lead to freedom. But before she
shares her story, please be aware that parts of this
conversation allude to sexual abuse and trauma. Hi, I'm Torona
(04:02):
Burke and you're listening to well read black girl. Maya
Angelo will always embody what it means to be a free,
beautiful black person, and Toronto Burke holds that same sense
of freedom. Her work is compelling, unapologetic, but also super compassionate.
(04:24):
As the founder of the Me Too movement, she aims
to protect and liberate black womanhood. Toronto Burke has become
one of my heroes, sitting alongside Maya Angelo in my
mind and of course, on my bookshelf. She is part
of a lineage of black women who organize and take
up issues that are impacting people who live on the margins.
(04:48):
Her first book, Unbound, was released in September twenty twenty one,
and tells her story from the very very beginning. She's
here today to share that beautiful story with us. Hi,
(05:09):
how are you? How are you? I am like all
up in your background. I see the flowers. She looks
so beautiful. It look like something. I'm so excited. Okay,
before we fully fully start full disclosure, you are my
first interview really, yes, yes, okay, So do you want
(05:29):
to introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Toronto Burke, author of Unbound,
my memoir and you are your best thing and founder
to Me Too movement. That was my first time introducing
myself as an author. So I just want to say
thank you for that. I've never done that before. Oh
look at you. Congratulations to Ronna or should I say
author Toronto Burke? Okay, okay, so let's get started. Was
(05:53):
reading a big part of your childhood? Yeah, it's a
big part of my childhood. I grew up in a
house full of books, and I talk about this in
my book a lot. But my mother was is an
avid reader, voracious reader, and he read mostly literature by
black women, and so I read mostly black women, right.
(06:16):
That was? That was I was like raised by black
feminist literature. I always say it was the kind of
thing where I had to do book reports even when
school was out right, my mother would give me book
reports to do in the summertime. I also went to
the library after school, and my mother would actually take
books from me as punishment, like other kids would be like,
(06:37):
you can't watch TV. She's like put those books down,
you know. Like, so yeah, I definitely I loved, loved,
loved reading. It was just my escape, you know, like
most people, it was a it was an escape. My
grandfather introduced political literature to me. He literally saw me
reading Roots one day and he was like, oh, oh
you're ready. Oh you're reading Roots, so you're ready, And
(06:59):
he just like opened up a floodgate of political literature.
So between the two of those things, it was that's
how I grew up. I can see Little Toronto reading Roots.
It's so easy to see how your journey has taken
you to now publishing your own memoirs. Like you are
on tour and your book is out in the world.
(07:19):
How does it feel. It depends on the day, but
it's it's a little bit generally of a surreal feeling.
You know. A lot of amazing things have happened to
me since me Too a viral, Right, I've been all
around the world and gotten all kind of you know, accolades,
and met all kind of people. But the only thing
(07:40):
that has happened to me that was actually something that
was a goal in my life was to write. So
the ability to you know, get a book deal, have
somebody say we are interested in your life, we want
to know your story, especially since young Toronto, was like,
I'm gonna be like Maya Angelo, I'm gonna write a
whole bunch of books about my life. And yeah, I'm like,
(08:02):
am I an author? That's hard to even call myself that,
as though that's the thing I've always wanted to be.
I'm like, oh, I'm an author. You are and author?
Embrace it. Embrace it. I mean, I love to hear
that connection with my Angelo because that connection is so
so deep for me as well. I think she, for
so many young black girls and women, is just like
(08:25):
the icon. You know, she's the first one to do
it with such transparency and vulnerability. And you addressed that
in your book How she inspired you in so many ways.
Can you talk about the first time you encountered her
work and what that felt like. Well, the first time
was in my mother's house, right. My mother had her
first editions just by virtue of buying them when they
came out, those first few books that had like the Rainbow,
(08:47):
and you remember that. That's why I was drawn to
her initially because her books were pretty and I was twelve,
you know, I was like eleven, twelve years old. I
was just like, oh, I want to read these pretty books.
And then when I read her work, I read I
Know Why the Cagebird Sings when I was about twelve,
and I encountered her story and it was so similar
(09:09):
to mine in some ways. When her being you know,
sexually assaulted at such a young age, I was like, Oh,
this is my best friend, you know. And you know,
when I think about it now, I don't know that
I knew that she was a real person, right. I
don't think until I got to maybe high school or
right before high school, like I realized she's a living
this is her life, you know what I mean, Like
(09:30):
I connected it, yeah, as her she was just a
character to me, you know, like if she was a
character that I love. And then when I discovered she
was real, I was like, Oh, this is the most
magical person in the whole white world, right, you know,
she's just amazing. That is so amazing me because I
read the book around that same age too, I was
(09:51):
like probably twelve for maybe eleven, and I really connected
to the relationship she had with her brother, you know.
So there's so many ways that you connect with her story.
But this was her real life, her real life, right.
It's crazy and so wild, but also like the Bluest
Eye in Seely, Like those are fictional characters, but they
also felt very reminiscent. It's like they're a trio, a sisterhood,
(10:14):
all three of these young beautiful black girls. Yeah, we
know what they look like because of the descriptions in
the book. And so these are black girls that either
feel like you or you know them. You know somebody
liked them, right. They just felt very familiar and opposite
of what we saw on TV. And I love all
these characters that allow us to see ourselves but also
see ourselves like in a beautiful, full way, Like we
(10:37):
can be complicated, we can be messy, we can just
be vulnerable. And I think that's like the through line
throughout your entire book, Unbounds that came out in September
twenty twenty one. It's all about vulnerability. And I wanted
to talk to you about that headspace you were in
because memoirs are really really difficult tasks. But you did it,
and you did it so well, so well done. But
(11:02):
how were you able to not only like relive these
like dark moments in your past, but do it with
such authenticity and just courage. You know, some of the
writing in the book are built on writing that I did,
like years ago, right, thinking I just need to get
this out and get it down. I used to have
(11:23):
a blog, a writing blog. My girlfriend, you know, Emony Perry,
who is just she's I can't She's a literary angel.
But the first piece of advice she gave me was
to write down everything that I remember from childhood to now,
like every significant memory, not details about it, but just
(11:46):
like a line, which was such a useful exercise. It
took me forever, but it was such a useful exercise
because it started jogging my memories. One memory was spark
another one. And then I went through and I collected
every bit of writing that I had ever done that
was remotely personal, that talked about life, or that maybe
(12:06):
connected to one of those memories. And I started off
with all of that. And so Imani helped me initially
create not a timeline, but something in the vein of
a timeline, so that I could pull out what felt
relevant and create the arc of the story. Then the
pandemic hit, so so my headspace was like shut down.
(12:30):
So I didn't write a ton in the first part
of twenty twenty. I just had so much anxiety and
what have you. The bulk of this book was written
between September in this past March, which is why this
is sort of a whirlwin two because I had to
keep coming in and out of this particular place that
I needed to go in order to write. But I
(12:51):
couldn't stay there because it was it was sometimes it
was painful, sometimes it was just you know, it was
I had all these ranges of emotions that I didn't
want to live in and live with every single day.
So I'd write for like a week straight, just churn
it out, and then I wouldn't write anything for like
another week, much to the chagrin of my editors, but
(13:12):
you know, that's the only way I could get it done. Well.
You know, it's such an interesting thing because I was
talking to Ashley s Ford and she recently finished her memoir,
and she said, if you're writing a memoir, you need
to have a therapy session twice a week, if not more,
because you know, you find yourself in these memories and
putting it down on paper, you are reliving them. Another
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part of that reliving is healing, so you do share
your healing and how you were able to just kind
of have more clarity about who you are and what
your story is. So what do you think you learned
the most as you were writing the memoir? You know,
there there was a humbling and that's the best way
I can think of at the moment that happened in
(13:55):
this writing process for me. And I came into it thinking, well,
it's my life, right. I fought to make sure I
wrote my book. I had. This is my second deal,
and I actually walked away from the first one because
they wanted me to have a ghostwriter, and I was like, one,
I'm a writer, I am not who I'm not having
my life ghost written, right Like, So I was determined
(14:15):
to do it myself, even though I didn't know at
all how to write a book and it's so hard.
And so I came into it thinking, I know my
life story. I'm the you know, the only expert on
my life story. But they are different parts of us.
And so there was a part of me that held
(14:37):
onto a story that I thought I needed to tell,
and then there was another part of me that was like,
that's not the whole story. Says like if you you know,
like you that other part of me sits quietly in
the corner and mine's business. And then they were like, well,
if you're gonna wake it up, then we're gonna tell
the story, you know. And it was humbling to have
to like face some of these things that I thought
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I had worked through or that I had figured out,
or sometimes I was writing things not how I'd be like, oh, shoot,
that's not what happened. That's not what happened, like I
had been telling myself it happened this way for so long,
or even when I talked to friends to try to
be like, oh remember that time when such and such
and such do you remember that? And they tell the
story and I'm say, oh, wait, that's how you remember it.
(15:22):
I thought it was, you know it was that was
really humbling, Like okay, okay, it's like you have to
reframe in your mind, like like what really, what's my truth?
You know? What's my truth? Yeah? You know. And I
was so committed to like I want to tell what happened,
but like the version of like what happened that we
(15:42):
keep is for our safety, you know. That's That's one
of the things I certainly learned. I had a version
of things that happened to me that it's true, but
it protects you from the full story, even the story.
I had written down a story when I was first
assaulted at seven, a long time ago, and i'd worked
(16:04):
out some years before that this narrative that I told
myself that what my abuser said to me probably didn't happen,
like he probably didn't say those words, and I think
I had told myself that he said, like this is
what happens to ugly little girls. I don't really have
a memory of that. I think I created that memory
(16:26):
and inserted it in the story at some point to
justify other beliefs that I had about myself. And I
had worked out in therapy that that probably didn't happen.
But when I was writing the story, it kept coming
to me, like you forgot to add that, and I
was like, you don't actually I had to like say, like,
you don't actually remember that, right, Like I don't want
(16:48):
to add something here that's that's not true. And if
it is true, and I'm still shaky about it, I
just let it, you know, And I think I wrote
in a book I'm not sure what he said, but
this is what I know. Those are the kind of
moments where I was like, Okay, when I put this down,
I'm not gonna write for a week. No. It was hard, Yeah,
because essentially what you're doing is you're talking to years
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seven year old self, and now that you have the
space and the reflection, what would you say to her now,
you know, as an adult and you know all the
things that you've encountered in your life, what would you
turn around to say to seven year old Toronto. Well,
it's what I had to say when I was writing,
that you're okay, you're safe. What happened to you was
(17:31):
horrible and but we're going to get through it, right, Like,
I think what was happening when I was writing is
that seven year old Toronto was fighting like don't don't
tell not don't tell the truth, like tell a lie,
but don't say that, you know what I mean? Like,
there was a part of me and it's not just
seven year old Toronto inside Toronto that's been protective of
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outside Toronto for a long time. It's like, don't say that.
We don't talk about this, you know, even in the
beginning when I was talking about you know, the way
people think about me and how they think, you know,
people who think you're ugly or that story about the
man calling me ugly. It was the most difficult chapter.
She've written that as an essay, a really short essay
(18:13):
some years prior, and never really that many people read it,
but it felt necessary to include because there was some
part there's some part of me that I also wanted
to talk about the compounded reality of being a black
girl in America. There is the way the world perceives you,
(18:35):
and make sure that you know that they perceive you
that way. There is the internalized depression that we deal with,
and that the repercussions of that that we deal with
from people in our own community. And then if there's abuse,
there's the the you know, the trauma from that abuse.
If there's poverty, there's a trauma from that poverty. Like
I want to paint a full picture, because we don't
(18:57):
see black girl's humanity in its fullness often enough. I
think I'm glory, Adam, this is well read black Girl. Today,
(19:29):
I'm speaking with Toronto Burke about her recent memoir Unbound. Toronto,
what made you decide to share at this moment, especially
when it comes to being so public about your life,
because you've been writing for a really long time. So
what is it about this moment in particular that felt
so necessary to tell your story. I think the timing
(19:52):
is more or less, you know, related to how long
it took me to write the book. But it still
was important now because the movement is only getting bigger,
and as it gets bigger, people take the liberty to
try to define it and or use it for their
own purposes or distorted And I wanted it to be
(20:13):
on record right that this is the origins, and this
is where it comes from, and this is the reason why,
like this is inextricably linked to black girlhood and you
can't remove that no matter what you do. So at
some point I just knew I needed to have that down.
I thought it was important that it was recorded for
(20:34):
future generations, for whoever is looking at you know the
history of this movement, that this existed for these reasons,
no matter what anybody else tells you. I'm I'm so
happy to hear you say that, because I think that
it's so essential to correct the historical record and to
have our voices out there in the public sphere, and
(20:57):
not to do it timidly. I know we're almost at time.
I absolutely love the title of the book, and I
wanted to know how you came up with the title
abound and what it means to you. So I'm one
of the people who helped me the book was Garret Kennedy.
He's a writer. Uh, he used to be a writer
for La Times. He has a he's a oh yeah,
(21:17):
he wrote the NWA book about the NW A book
and he has Yes, he has a book coming out
about Whitney Houston in February. Um. But Garrick was my
personal editor, so I had my every everybody, every black
writer I knew, told me, get you another editor, so
like you have a black editor if you don't have.
(21:39):
And I love my editor, Brent Flatiron is great. She
was an amazing to work with. But Garrick was my
like sort of writing coach and and and I would
send him my work to edit. Garrick is actually who
came up with the title. So I had another title
in mine and I was desperate to find another one.
And we do this sometimes, we like we're gonna figure
(21:59):
it out in ten minutes, let's go. And we knew
we wanted like one word, and so we were going
back and forth, and I know this is a dramatic story,
but this is really how it happened. I was sitting
in his house and he turned to me. He was like, Unbound,
and I said, oh my god, that's it. That's it.
(22:20):
I just got chilled. I mean it was literally like that.
And he said unbound, and I was just like I
got that same film and I was like, oh my god,
that's it, that's it. That is the that is the word,
that is the title. And it just captured all of
that for me. You know, like, this is about us
unbinding ourselves from these various things that tie us down,
(22:41):
that keep us from growing and moving forward and feeling freedom.
Uh so, yeah, it was. It was. I love him
so much and I love him for that. He's an
incredible writer. And that title, it perfectly describes your experience.
And now I'm thinking about you know, you are author,
you're a writer, you're all the things. So what does
(23:02):
the future hold? Will there be more memoirs write about
like the movement? Like I feel like there's so much,
so much for you to give. I don't know, it's
a lot. Let me tell you. So the you know,
when you you've been through this process, so you have
two books, you know, when you're in those meetings, the
marketing meetings, when they're when they're writing before you launch, right,
(23:23):
and um, they were introducing some new assets that we're
going to go out into social media, what have you?
And the assets said unbound the first memoir by Ronald Burke,
and I was like, so John put that on it.
They were manifesting for you. They were manifesting. They said, oh,
(23:46):
this is not gonna be the last. So out of
my mind. I remember joking with with Garrick and some
of my friends and saying, like a crazy I'm not
doing this again. But you know what, I want to
write a novel at some point in my life. So
that has just always been a dream. At some point
I plan on doing that. Um, there is more writing coming.
(24:06):
That's that's a short answer. I've been in a lot
of requests to have a version of the book or
something for young adults, which I really want to do
because fifty a book is about me as a young adult,
right and or a young person and um, and I
just don't think we talk about or talk to young
people directly enough about this as a phenomenon that happens
(24:30):
in their lives regularly. So I'm definitely thinking about that,
and I feel like there's a part two bubbling up
in my spirit. But we'll see. I see it too,
And there's so much more life to be lived in
stories like I want everything that you left on the
cutting room floor, bring it to us, to us, and
(24:51):
I cannot wait for a novel. I like, that's that's
gonna be. We gonna bring you back for another episode
because I want to hear the fiction. Yeah, it's a
science fiction and there you know, what do you what
do you think going to be historical fiction? The book
that's been brewing in my spirit. During the quarantine part
of the pandemic, I started doing it. I got really
heavy into my family research and I have discovered an
(25:12):
ancestor who I'm madly in love with, and I just
I'm doing more research on her now. So I feel
like I want to fictionalize and tell her story, sort
of filling the blanks in her story. So, girls, that's
so incredible from you know all the things, that's so
excited for you. It's all it's all gonna happen. It's
(25:35):
all gonna be happening. We're gonna be here Supportine. Now.
I appreciate it. Okay to Ronna, I wanted to play
a game that I like to call rapid Fire Up. Okay.
I love those where I ask you questions and I
(25:55):
want to hear the first thing that comes to your mind.
As long as you don't ask me my favorite book,
because that'll be terrible. You know what, We're not gonna
go there. We're gonna start off with some fun ones.
What's your theme song? Can't Keep a Good Woman Down
by Mary J. Bline. I like that one. Okay, coffee
or tea tea? Name three of the favorite things on
your desk? Oh? I have a sign that says stupid
(26:17):
people get on my nerves that my daughter bought me,
my ghost stapler, which I really love, and my moleskin. Okay.
What's your favorite piece of clothing that makes you feel powerful? Oh? Powerful?
M I have a blouse that has these really this
black blouse that has a bow and it has these
(26:39):
big puffy sleeves. And years ago I took my license pictures,
the best driver's license picture I ever took. It's like,
I love this blouse, so I love him. Do you
have a mantra something you recite before giving a speech?
I don't know that I have a mantra, but that
quote by Corner West is one that I refer too often.
You can't lead to people if you don't love the people,
(27:00):
and you can't save the people if you don't serve
the people perfection. Okay, And so last two, what's your sign?
And do you know your brising, moon and sun? Oh? Absolutely?
My son sign is Virgo, My rising is also Virgo,
and my moon is in Pisces. I'm a triple Virgo
because my mercury is in Virgo. Which rules are That's
(27:22):
a ruling planet. So I am all Virgo. Everything vigers unite.
That's right. Oh, I love that. Okay. And the last
one is a special one for us. What does it
mean to you to be well read? Oh? Oh, what
it means everything. I think that I would not be
(27:44):
able to write well without being well read. I wouldn't
be able to like show up in the world the
way that I'm able to show up if I wasn't
well read. And I think it means having books in
your life that provide you guidance, that provides you levity,
that provides you escape, but that that really are sort
(28:05):
of help you just grow as a person, and those
books happen to be from me, mostly by black women authors,
but several others. You know, I love some black men's too,
So yeah, I take pride in being well read. It
was you know, I don't think I would have advanced
in life without having books for sure. You know, I
(28:26):
love this platform. I love well read black Girl. I
love everything that you're doing because I remember the first
time I saw the name, I was like, that's me.
Oh well read black girl. You know, yeah, it feels
like a club. It really, it really doesn't. Even with
everything that's going on with the pandemic, even though we
can't like meet in person, I'm still like, you know,
(28:46):
this is our creative church. This is our family reunion.
Whether we're in person or virtual, the love and energy
is always there. And I'm so grateful. Like you're like
my first person. I said, Okay, I said, please, mama,
oh give us give us the thumbs up. Yes, indeed,
(29:08):
thank you so much, trying to thank you for everything, hugs,
doing the Seely clan clap, Yes, congratulations. Toronto Work is
living proof that there are no defined boundaries to being
an activist or an author. She shows us how activism
(29:30):
can come in many forms and how your own story
can serve as a catalyst. Her courage to open up
about her past allows us to reckon with our own
like mine. Angelo's. Toronto's memoir is enduring. It calls out
to us to be clear about our identities and what
we care about, what we stand for. I hope their
(29:52):
stories are more than inspiring to you and move you
towards action. Toronto's book Unbounds, my story of liberation and
the birth of the Me Too movement, is out now.
After the break, we're taking a trip to one of
my favorite bokstores in Washington, DC to see what they're
(30:13):
excited to read this year. Here at Well Read black Girl.
We love a local bookstore, so of course I've got
(30:34):
to shine a light on some of my faves. From
time to time, I'll check in with bookstore owners about
why they open their shops and see if they have
any staff picks for us. On today's Indie first, we're
checking in with the owners at sant kofa bookstore in Washington,
d C. Hey, Shri Kiana, how are you thank you
(30:56):
for joining us today? Can you tell us a little
bit about Saint Kofa and your background. Sure, Shirikiana Grima
is my name. I own with Hiley, my husband, Hannah
Garrima sank Cofa Video and bookstore located in Washington, DC,
Chocolate City, and we had intended to use the building
(31:16):
to produce our films and maybe sell them as well
as other films by African filmmakers and other filmmakers of color.
So we saw this space and highly my husband just
looked at it and said, you know, we should just
have a bookstore here as well. And it's now twenty
five years that is so amazing. And as I said before,
(31:38):
thank Cofa holds a special place in my heart because
of my experience at Howard and just reading like so
much in your bookstore and learning so much about myself.
So thank you. And you're going to share some staff
picks with us right What are you guys reading at
thank Cofa right now? I'm excited to share titles that
are coming down the pike in twenty twenty two based
(32:00):
on staff recommendations. Hi, my name is Mikayla and the
book I recommend is called Memphis. It's an upcoming novel
by Terror and Stringfellow, and I'm really excited about it.
I'm from Mphis and I love reading about my hometown.
My name is Jonathan. I'd like to recommend the book
of Blood and Sweat, Black Lives in the Genesis of
White Power and Wealth by Clyde w Ford. It takes
(32:21):
a very interesting approach in telling the story of the
accumulation of white wealth in America through black labor. Hi.
I'm Christina and the book I recommend is Black Love
Matters by Jessica P. Pride. I'm excited about this book
because black love is grossly underrepresented in the media, and
this anthology promises new thoughts and ideas on black love
(32:47):
in media representation. I can't wait to read it. Thank
you again to Toronto Burke. It's been amazing to witness
your growth and transformation. Congratulations you are an author and inspiration.
(33:12):
I also have to give a special ancestral shout out
to the Light from Above Maya Angelo. Thank you so
much for your words, your wisdom. We love you. Thank
you all for joining me. This season. I'll be talking
with authors like Gabrielle Union, Elizabeth Assovado, Anita Hill. I mean,
(33:33):
those are just a few names. Next episode, I'll be
talking to men Gin Lee, the author of Pichinko and
Free Food for Millionaires, about her upcoming memoir and her
radical thoughts on why young people should be reading. And
that episode's actually out now, so let it roll. So
until next time on Well Read Black Girl, tell your
(33:55):
friends to tell their friends so we can all be friends.
Well Read black Girl. It's a production of Pushing Industries.
It is written and hosted by me Glory Edam and
(34:15):
produced by Cher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor
is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and
our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Special thanks this week to
Vicki Merrick. Our executive producers are Miya Lobell and Leet
Hall Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Famee, Carly Migliori,
(34:40):
Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at Well Read black Girl.
You can find Pushkin and all social media platforms at
Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter
at pushkin dot Fm. If you love this show and
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(35:03):
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(35:28):
And do you get to hear what's on my mind,
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Pushkin Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
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(00:38):
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(01:02):
up is painful for the southern black girl, being aware
of her displacement is the rust on the razor that
threatens the throat. It is an unnecessary insult. Everybody has
a story, Like so many young people, I found mine
(01:22):
in the words of Maya Angelo. Reading her autobiography made
me care less about being likable. I felt more deserving.
I wasn't sure what exactly because I was twelve, but
I recognized the feelings of worthiness in her work. I
know why The Cage Bird Sings wasn't just an autobiography,
(01:43):
it was a testimony. I wanted to control my narrative
the way she controlled hers. I devoured her books to
understand her audacity. Maya Angelo taught me how to be fearless,
how to live with compassion, and most importantly, how to
tell my story. Welcome to Well Read Black Girl, the
(02:21):
literary kickback you didn't even know you needed. I'm your host,
Gloria Adam. For years, the Well Read Black Girl community
has come together to honor the work of female, fem
and non binary writers of color, and now we're inviting
you to join the party. Each week, I'll be talking
(02:42):
to writers, thinkers, and makers about how they found their
voice home their craft, navigated the wild world of publishing,
and showed up in the world. We moved through the
current cultural moment where art, justice and literature collide, and
pay homage to the literary legacies of the women who
(03:05):
paved the way. You'll hear from bookstore owners, literary a gets,
and Well Read Black Girl book Club members themselves on
what they're reading and what it means to be well read.
After the Break, author and activist Toronto Burke and I
(03:26):
discuss her childhood love for reading, how the Me Too
movement led to her lifelong dream of writing, and how
protecting your story can lead to freedom. But before she
shares her story, please be aware that parts of this
conversation allude to sexual abuse and trauma. Hi, I'm Torona
(04:02):
Burke and you're listening to well read black girl. Maya
Angelo will always embody what it means to be a free,
beautiful black person, and Toronto Burke holds that same sense
of freedom. Her work is compelling, unapologetic, but also super compassionate.
(04:24):
As the founder of the Me Too movement, she aims
to protect and liberate black womanhood. Toronto Burke has become
one of my heroes, sitting alongside Maya Angelo in my
mind and of course, on my bookshelf. She is part
of a lineage of black women who organize and take
up issues that are impacting people who live on the margins.
(04:48):
Her first book, Unbound, was released in September twenty twenty one,
and tells her story from the very very beginning. She's
here today to share that beautiful story with us. Hi,
(05:09):
how are you? How are you? I am like all
up in your background. I see the flowers. She looks
so beautiful. It look like something. I'm so excited. Okay,
before we fully fully start full disclosure, you are my
first interview really, yes, yes, okay, So do you want
(05:29):
to introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Toronto Burke, author of Unbound,
my memoir and you are your best thing and founder
to Me Too movement. That was my first time introducing
myself as an author. So I just want to say
thank you for that. I've never done that before. Oh
look at you. Congratulations to Ronna or should I say
author Toronto Burke? Okay, okay, so let's get started. Was
(05:53):
reading a big part of your childhood? Yeah, it's a
big part of my childhood. I grew up in a
house full of books, and I talk about this in
my book a lot. But my mother was is an
avid reader, voracious reader, and he read mostly literature by
black women, and so I read mostly black women, right.
(06:16):
That was? That was I was like raised by black
feminist literature. I always say it was the kind of
thing where I had to do book reports even when
school was out right, my mother would give me book
reports to do in the summertime. I also went to
the library after school, and my mother would actually take
books from me as punishment, like other kids would be like,
(06:37):
you can't watch TV. She's like put those books down,
you know. Like, so yeah, I definitely I loved, loved,
loved reading. It was just my escape, you know, like
most people, it was a it was an escape. My
grandfather introduced political literature to me. He literally saw me
reading Roots one day and he was like, oh, oh
you're ready. Oh you're reading Roots, so you're ready, And
(06:59):
he just like opened up a floodgate of political literature.
So between the two of those things, it was that's
how I grew up. I can see Little Toronto reading Roots.
It's so easy to see how your journey has taken
you to now publishing your own memoirs. Like you are
on tour and your book is out in the world.
(07:19):
How does it feel. It depends on the day, but
it's it's a little bit generally of a surreal feeling.
You know. A lot of amazing things have happened to
me since me Too a viral, Right, I've been all
around the world and gotten all kind of you know, accolades,
and met all kind of people. But the only thing
(07:40):
that has happened to me that was actually something that
was a goal in my life was to write. So
the ability to you know, get a book deal, have
somebody say we are interested in your life, we want
to know your story, especially since young Toronto, was like,
I'm gonna be like Maya Angelo, I'm gonna write a
whole bunch of books about my life. And yeah, I'm like,
(08:02):
am I an author? That's hard to even call myself that,
as though that's the thing I've always wanted to be.
I'm like, oh, I'm an author. You are and author?
Embrace it. Embrace it. I mean, I love to hear
that connection with my Angelo because that connection is so
so deep for me as well. I think she, for
so many young black girls and women, is just like
(08:25):
the icon. You know, she's the first one to do
it with such transparency and vulnerability. And you addressed that
in your book How she inspired you in so many ways.
Can you talk about the first time you encountered her
work and what that felt like. Well, the first time
was in my mother's house, right. My mother had her
first editions just by virtue of buying them when they
came out, those first few books that had like the Rainbow,
(08:47):
and you remember that. That's why I was drawn to
her initially because her books were pretty and I was twelve,
you know, I was like eleven, twelve years old. I
was just like, oh, I want to read these pretty books.
And then when I read her work, I read I
Know Why the Cagebird Sings when I was about twelve,
and I encountered her story and it was so similar
(09:09):
to mine in some ways. When her being you know,
sexually assaulted at such a young age, I was like, Oh,
this is my best friend, you know. And you know,
when I think about it now, I don't know that
I knew that she was a real person, right. I
don't think until I got to maybe high school or
right before high school, like I realized she's a living
this is her life, you know what I mean, Like
(09:30):
I connected it, yeah, as her she was just a
character to me, you know, like if she was a
character that I love. And then when I discovered she
was real, I was like, Oh, this is the most
magical person in the whole white world, right, you know,
she's just amazing. That is so amazing me because I
read the book around that same age too, I was
(09:51):
like probably twelve for maybe eleven, and I really connected
to the relationship she had with her brother, you know.
So there's so many ways that you connect with her story.
But this was her real life, her real life, right.
It's crazy and so wild, but also like the Bluest
Eye in Seely, Like those are fictional characters, but they
also felt very reminiscent. It's like they're a trio, a sisterhood,
(10:14):
all three of these young beautiful black girls. Yeah, we
know what they look like because of the descriptions in
the book. And so these are black girls that either
feel like you or you know them. You know somebody
liked them, right. They just felt very familiar and opposite
of what we saw on TV. And I love all
these characters that allow us to see ourselves but also
see ourselves like in a beautiful, full way, Like we
(10:37):
can be complicated, we can be messy, we can just
be vulnerable. And I think that's like the through line
throughout your entire book, Unbounds that came out in September
twenty twenty one. It's all about vulnerability. And I wanted
to talk to you about that headspace you were in
because memoirs are really really difficult tasks. But you did it,
and you did it so well, so well done. But
(11:02):
how were you able to not only like relive these
like dark moments in your past, but do it with
such authenticity and just courage. You know, some of the
writing in the book are built on writing that I did,
like years ago, right, thinking I just need to get
this out and get it down. I used to have
(11:23):
a blog, a writing blog. My girlfriend, you know, Emony Perry,
who is just she's I can't She's a literary angel.
But the first piece of advice she gave me was
to write down everything that I remember from childhood to now,
like every significant memory, not details about it, but just
(11:46):
like a line, which was such a useful exercise. It
took me forever, but it was such a useful exercise
because it started jogging my memories. One memory was spark
another one. And then I went through and I collected
every bit of writing that I had ever done that
was remotely personal, that talked about life, or that maybe
(12:06):
connected to one of those memories. And I started off
with all of that. And so Imani helped me initially
create not a timeline, but something in the vein of
a timeline, so that I could pull out what felt
relevant and create the arc of the story. Then the
pandemic hit, so so my headspace was like shut down.
(12:30):
So I didn't write a ton in the first part
of twenty twenty. I just had so much anxiety and
what have you. The bulk of this book was written
between September in this past March, which is why this
is sort of a whirlwin two because I had to
keep coming in and out of this particular place that
I needed to go in order to write. But I
(12:51):
couldn't stay there because it was it was sometimes it
was painful, sometimes it was just you know, it was
I had all these ranges of emotions that I didn't
want to live in and live with every single day.
So I'd write for like a week straight, just churn
it out, and then I wouldn't write anything for like
another week, much to the chagrin of my editors, but
(13:12):
you know, that's the only way I could get it done. Well.
You know, it's such an interesting thing because I was
talking to Ashley s Ford and she recently finished her memoir,
and she said, if you're writing a memoir, you need
to have a therapy session twice a week, if not more,
because you know, you find yourself in these memories and
putting it down on paper, you are reliving them. Another
(13:35):
part of that reliving is healing, so you do share
your healing and how you were able to just kind
of have more clarity about who you are and what
your story is. So what do you think you learned
the most as you were writing the memoir? You know,
there there was a humbling and that's the best way
I can think of at the moment that happened in
(13:55):
this writing process for me. And I came into it thinking, well,
it's my life, right. I fought to make sure I
wrote my book. I had. This is my second deal,
and I actually walked away from the first one because
they wanted me to have a ghostwriter, and I was like, one,
I'm a writer, I am not who I'm not having
my life ghost written, right Like, So I was determined
(14:15):
to do it myself, even though I didn't know at
all how to write a book and it's so hard.
And so I came into it thinking, I know my
life story. I'm the you know, the only expert on
my life story. But they are different parts of us.
And so there was a part of me that held
(14:37):
onto a story that I thought I needed to tell,
and then there was another part of me that was like,
that's not the whole story. Says like if you you know,
like you that other part of me sits quietly in
the corner and mine's business. And then they were like, well,
if you're gonna wake it up, then we're gonna tell
the story, you know. And it was humbling to have
to like face some of these things that I thought
(14:59):
I had worked through or that I had figured out,
or sometimes I was writing things not how I'd be like, oh, shoot,
that's not what happened. That's not what happened, like I
had been telling myself it happened this way for so long,
or even when I talked to friends to try to
be like, oh remember that time when such and such
and such do you remember that? And they tell the
story and I'm say, oh, wait, that's how you remember it.
(15:22):
I thought it was, you know it was that was
really humbling, Like okay, okay, it's like you have to
reframe in your mind, like like what really, what's my truth?
You know? What's my truth? Yeah? You know. And I
was so committed to like I want to tell what happened,
but like the version of like what happened that we
(15:42):
keep is for our safety, you know. That's That's one
of the things I certainly learned. I had a version
of things that happened to me that it's true, but
it protects you from the full story, even the story.
I had written down a story when I was first
assaulted at seven, a long time ago, and i'd worked
(16:04):
out some years before that this narrative that I told
myself that what my abuser said to me probably didn't happen,
like he probably didn't say those words, and I think
I had told myself that he said, like this is
what happens to ugly little girls. I don't really have
a memory of that. I think I created that memory
(16:26):
and inserted it in the story at some point to
justify other beliefs that I had about myself. And I
had worked out in therapy that that probably didn't happen.
But when I was writing the story, it kept coming
to me, like you forgot to add that, and I
was like, you don't actually I had to like say, like,
you don't actually remember that, right, Like I don't want
(16:48):
to add something here that's that's not true. And if
it is true, and I'm still shaky about it, I
just let it, you know, And I think I wrote
in a book I'm not sure what he said, but
this is what I know. Those are the kind of
moments where I was like, Okay, when I put this down,
I'm not gonna write for a week. No. It was hard, Yeah,
because essentially what you're doing is you're talking to years
(17:10):
seven year old self, and now that you have the
space and the reflection, what would you say to her now,
you know, as an adult and you know all the
things that you've encountered in your life, what would you
turn around to say to seven year old Toronto. Well,
it's what I had to say when I was writing,
that you're okay, you're safe. What happened to you was
(17:31):
horrible and but we're going to get through it, right, Like,
I think what was happening when I was writing is
that seven year old Toronto was fighting like don't don't
tell not don't tell the truth, like tell a lie,
but don't say that, you know what I mean? Like,
there was a part of me and it's not just
seven year old Toronto inside Toronto that's been protective of
(17:52):
outside Toronto for a long time. It's like, don't say that.
We don't talk about this, you know, even in the
beginning when I was talking about you know, the way
people think about me and how they think, you know,
people who think you're ugly or that story about the
man calling me ugly. It was the most difficult chapter.
She've written that as an essay, a really short essay
(18:13):
some years prior, and never really that many people read it,
but it felt necessary to include because there was some
part there's some part of me that I also wanted
to talk about the compounded reality of being a black
girl in America. There is the way the world perceives you,
(18:35):
and make sure that you know that they perceive you
that way. There is the internalized depression that we deal with,
and that the repercussions of that that we deal with
from people in our own community. And then if there's abuse,
there's the the you know, the trauma from that abuse.
If there's poverty, there's a trauma from that poverty. Like
I want to paint a full picture, because we don't
(18:57):
see black girl's humanity in its fullness often enough. I
think I'm glory, Adam, this is well read black Girl. Today,
(19:29):
I'm speaking with Toronto Burke about her recent memoir Unbound. Toronto,
what made you decide to share at this moment, especially
when it comes to being so public about your life,
because you've been writing for a really long time. So
what is it about this moment in particular that felt
so necessary to tell your story. I think the timing
(19:52):
is more or less, you know, related to how long
it took me to write the book. But it still
was important now because the movement is only getting bigger,
and as it gets bigger, people take the liberty to
try to define it and or use it for their
own purposes or distorted And I wanted it to be
(20:13):
on record right that this is the origins, and this
is where it comes from, and this is the reason why,
like this is inextricably linked to black girlhood and you
can't remove that no matter what you do. So at
some point I just knew I needed to have that down.
I thought it was important that it was recorded for
(20:34):
future generations, for whoever is looking at you know the
history of this movement, that this existed for these reasons,
no matter what anybody else tells you. I'm I'm so
happy to hear you say that, because I think that
it's so essential to correct the historical record and to
have our voices out there in the public sphere, and
(20:57):
not to do it timidly. I know we're almost at time.
I absolutely love the title of the book, and I
wanted to know how you came up with the title
abound and what it means to you. So I'm one
of the people who helped me the book was Garret Kennedy.
He's a writer. Uh, he used to be a writer
for La Times. He has a he's a oh yeah,
(21:17):
he wrote the NWA book about the NW A book
and he has Yes, he has a book coming out
about Whitney Houston in February. Um. But Garrick was my
personal editor, so I had my every everybody, every black
writer I knew, told me, get you another editor, so
like you have a black editor if you don't have.
(21:39):
And I love my editor, Brent Flatiron is great. She
was an amazing to work with. But Garrick was my
like sort of writing coach and and and I would
send him my work to edit. Garrick is actually who
came up with the title. So I had another title
in mine and I was desperate to find another one.
And we do this sometimes, we like we're gonna figure
(21:59):
it out in ten minutes, let's go. And we knew
we wanted like one word, and so we were going
back and forth, and I know this is a dramatic story,
but this is really how it happened. I was sitting
in his house and he turned to me. He was like, Unbound,
and I said, oh my god, that's it. That's it.
(22:20):
I just got chilled. I mean it was literally like that.
And he said unbound, and I was just like I
got that same film and I was like, oh my god,
that's it, that's it. That is the that is the word,
that is the title. And it just captured all of
that for me. You know, like, this is about us
unbinding ourselves from these various things that tie us down,
(22:41):
that keep us from growing and moving forward and feeling freedom.
Uh so, yeah, it was. It was. I love him
so much and I love him for that. He's an
incredible writer. And that title, it perfectly describes your experience.
And now I'm thinking about you know, you are author,
you're a writer, you're all the things. So what does
(23:02):
the future hold? Will there be more memoirs write about
like the movement? Like I feel like there's so much,
so much for you to give. I don't know, it's
a lot. Let me tell you. So the you know,
when you you've been through this process, so you have
two books, you know, when you're in those meetings, the
marketing meetings, when they're when they're writing before you launch, right,
(23:23):
and um, they were introducing some new assets that we're
going to go out into social media, what have you?
And the assets said unbound the first memoir by Ronald Burke,
and I was like, so John put that on it.
They were manifesting for you. They were manifesting. They said, oh,
(23:46):
this is not gonna be the last. So out of
my mind. I remember joking with with Garrick and some
of my friends and saying, like a crazy I'm not
doing this again. But you know what, I want to
write a novel at some point in my life. So
that has just always been a dream. At some point
I plan on doing that. Um, there is more writing coming.
(24:06):
That's that's a short answer. I've been in a lot
of requests to have a version of the book or
something for young adults, which I really want to do
because fifty a book is about me as a young adult,
right and or a young person and um, and I
just don't think we talk about or talk to young
people directly enough about this as a phenomenon that happens
(24:30):
in their lives regularly. So I'm definitely thinking about that,
and I feel like there's a part two bubbling up
in my spirit. But we'll see. I see it too,
And there's so much more life to be lived in
stories like I want everything that you left on the
cutting room floor, bring it to us, to us, and
(24:51):
I cannot wait for a novel. I like, that's that's
gonna be. We gonna bring you back for another episode
because I want to hear the fiction. Yeah, it's a
science fiction and there you know, what do you what
do you think going to be historical fiction? The book
that's been brewing in my spirit. During the quarantine part
of the pandemic, I started doing it. I got really
heavy into my family research and I have discovered an
(25:12):
ancestor who I'm madly in love with, and I just
I'm doing more research on her now. So I feel
like I want to fictionalize and tell her story, sort
of filling the blanks in her story. So, girls, that's
so incredible from you know all the things, that's so
excited for you. It's all it's all gonna happen. It's
(25:35):
all gonna be happening. We're gonna be here Supportine. Now.
I appreciate it. Okay to Ronna, I wanted to play
a game that I like to call rapid Fire Up. Okay.
I love those where I ask you questions and I
(25:55):
want to hear the first thing that comes to your mind.
As long as you don't ask me my favorite book,
because that'll be terrible. You know what, We're not gonna
go there. We're gonna start off with some fun ones.
What's your theme song? Can't Keep a Good Woman Down
by Mary J. Bline. I like that one. Okay, coffee
or tea tea? Name three of the favorite things on
your desk? Oh? I have a sign that says stupid
(26:17):
people get on my nerves that my daughter bought me,
my ghost stapler, which I really love, and my moleskin. Okay.
What's your favorite piece of clothing that makes you feel powerful? Oh? Powerful?
M I have a blouse that has these really this
black blouse that has a bow and it has these
(26:39):
big puffy sleeves. And years ago I took my license pictures,
the best driver's license picture I ever took. It's like,
I love this blouse, so I love him. Do you
have a mantra something you recite before giving a speech?
I don't know that I have a mantra, but that
quote by Corner West is one that I refer too often.
You can't lead to people if you don't love the people,
(27:00):
and you can't save the people if you don't serve
the people perfection. Okay, And so last two, what's your sign?
And do you know your brising, moon and sun? Oh? Absolutely?
My son sign is Virgo, My rising is also Virgo,
and my moon is in Pisces. I'm a triple Virgo
because my mercury is in Virgo. Which rules are That's
(27:22):
a ruling planet. So I am all Virgo. Everything vigers unite.
That's right. Oh, I love that. Okay. And the last
one is a special one for us. What does it
mean to you to be well read? Oh? Oh, what
it means everything. I think that I would not be
(27:44):
able to write well without being well read. I wouldn't
be able to like show up in the world the
way that I'm able to show up if I wasn't
well read. And I think it means having books in
your life that provide you guidance, that provides you levity,
that provides you escape, but that that really are sort
(28:05):
of help you just grow as a person, and those
books happen to be from me, mostly by black women authors,
but several others. You know, I love some black men's too,
So yeah, I take pride in being well read. It
was you know, I don't think I would have advanced
in life without having books for sure. You know, I
(28:26):
love this platform. I love well read black Girl. I
love everything that you're doing because I remember the first
time I saw the name, I was like, that's me.
Oh well read black girl. You know, yeah, it feels
like a club. It really, it really doesn't. Even with
everything that's going on with the pandemic, even though we
can't like meet in person, I'm still like, you know,
(28:46):
this is our creative church. This is our family reunion.
Whether we're in person or virtual, the love and energy
is always there. And I'm so grateful. Like you're like
my first person. I said, Okay, I said, please, mama,
oh give us give us the thumbs up. Yes, indeed,
(29:08):
thank you so much, trying to thank you for everything, hugs,
doing the Seely clan clap, Yes, congratulations. Toronto Work is
living proof that there are no defined boundaries to being
an activist or an author. She shows us how activism
(29:30):
can come in many forms and how your own story
can serve as a catalyst. Her courage to open up
about her past allows us to reckon with our own
like mine. Angelo's. Toronto's memoir is enduring. It calls out
to us to be clear about our identities and what
we care about, what we stand for. I hope their
(29:52):
stories are more than inspiring to you and move you
towards action. Toronto's book Unbounds, my story of liberation and
the birth of the Me Too movement, is out now.
After the break, we're taking a trip to one of
my favorite bokstores in Washington, DC to see what they're
(30:13):
excited to read this year. Here at Well Read black Girl.
We love a local bookstore, so of course I've got
(30:34):
to shine a light on some of my faves. From
time to time, I'll check in with bookstore owners about
why they open their shops and see if they have
any staff picks for us. On today's Indie first, we're
checking in with the owners at sant kofa bookstore in Washington,
d C. Hey, Shri Kiana, how are you thank you
(30:56):
for joining us today? Can you tell us a little
bit about Saint Kofa and your background. Sure, Shirikiana Grima
is my name. I own with Hiley, my husband, Hannah
Garrima sank Cofa Video and bookstore located in Washington, DC,
Chocolate City, and we had intended to use the building
(31:16):
to produce our films and maybe sell them as well
as other films by African filmmakers and other filmmakers of color.
So we saw this space and highly my husband just
looked at it and said, you know, we should just
have a bookstore here as well. And it's now twenty
five years that is so amazing. And as I said before,
(31:38):
thank Cofa holds a special place in my heart because
of my experience at Howard and just reading like so
much in your bookstore and learning so much about myself.
So thank you. And you're going to share some staff
picks with us right What are you guys reading at
thank Cofa right now? I'm excited to share titles that
are coming down the pike in twenty twenty two based
(32:00):
on staff recommendations. Hi, my name is Mikayla and the
book I recommend is called Memphis. It's an upcoming novel
by Terror and Stringfellow, and I'm really excited about it.
I'm from Mphis and I love reading about my hometown.
My name is Jonathan. I'd like to recommend the book
of Blood and Sweat, Black Lives in the Genesis of
White Power and Wealth by Clyde w Ford. It takes
(32:21):
a very interesting approach in telling the story of the
accumulation of white wealth in America through black labor. Hi.
I'm Christina and the book I recommend is Black Love
Matters by Jessica P. Pride. I'm excited about this book
because black love is grossly underrepresented in the media, and
this anthology promises new thoughts and ideas on black love
(32:47):
in media representation. I can't wait to read it. Thank
you again to Toronto Burke. It's been amazing to witness
your growth and transformation. Congratulations you are an author and inspiration.
(33:12):
I also have to give a special ancestral shout out
to the Light from Above Maya Angelo. Thank you so
much for your words, your wisdom. We love you. Thank
you all for joining me. This season. I'll be talking
with authors like Gabrielle Union, Elizabeth Assovado, Anita Hill. I mean,
(33:33):
those are just a few names. Next episode, I'll be
talking to men Gin Lee, the author of Pichinko and
Free Food for Millionaires, about her upcoming memoir and her
radical thoughts on why young people should be reading. And
that episode's actually out now, so let it roll. So
until next time on Well Read Black Girl, tell your
(33:55):
friends to tell their friends so we can all be friends.
Well Read black Girl. It's a production of Pushing Industries.
It is written and hosted by me Glory Edam and
(34:15):
produced by Cher Vincent and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor
is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and
our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Special thanks this week to
Vicki Merrick. Our executive producers are Miya Lobell and Leet
Hall Molad. At Pushkin thanks to Heather Famee, Carly Migliori,
(34:40):
Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at Well Read black Girl.
You can find Pushkin and all social media platforms at
Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter
at pushkin dot Fm. If you love this show and
others from Pushkin Industry, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin
(35:03):
Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and
uninterrupted listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for
Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you're already
a subscriber, make sure to check out my exclusive Bookmark
series on pushkin Plus. Starting on February eighteenth. You'll hear
extended interviews with book club members, bookstore owners, and more.
(35:28):
And do you get to hear what's on my mind,
what's on my radar, and of course what's on my
reading list each week. To find more pushkinn podcasts, listen
on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to
listen
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