March 1, 2022 • 24 mins
Glory talks to culture critic and author Zeba Blay about her book Carefree Black Girls: A Celebration of Black Women in Popular Culture and creating space for Black women to heal. In this episode, they explore Zeba’s mental health journey, how the internet shaped her writing, and why her work centers Black life.
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Pushkin. Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:38):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisious History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple
podcast or at pushkin dot com. Celebrating and spotlighting and
(01:12):
expanding stories about black women. I know that is my
purpose here. That is the thing that makes the writing
worth it. Because writing is hard. It is hard. Yes.
(01:32):
Zeba Blay is a writer and pop culture critic who
centers black life in everything she writes. She's also the
force behind the hashtag care free black Girl, which is
taken on a life of its own. It's part activism,
part mantra, part safe space. She released the book of
(01:52):
essays named after her viral hashtag in twenty twenty one,
and it was our February book Club pick. Welcome to
Well Read black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't even
know you needed. I'm your host ry Adam. Each week
(02:13):
I sit in conversation with one of my favorite authors.
We talk about the craft of writing and of course,
what it means to be well read. On today's episode,
Zeba and I talk about how she handled her mental
health journey, how the Internet shaped her writing, and how
intentionality is a bomb for her work. Welcome, ZeVA. How
(02:51):
are you just very excited to see your face and
be talking to you because you know I'm a stand
So yeah, do you remember when you first started writing?
Do you remember the first thing that you wrote that
really made you feel brave? So? I come from a
family of writers. My father's a journalist and Ghana mom
was a journalist. Everyone as a writer, so I grew
(03:14):
up always knowing that this was a form of expression
that I was innately plugged into. There was something in
my lineage that made it easy for me back then.
Now it's not so easy. But I started writing when
I was like ten, like little short stories. I would
like read The Babysitters Club and then like make my
own version of that kind of stuff. But I think
(03:35):
when I first really began to like find my voice
was the Internet, you know, discovering the Internet and discovering
sites like zanga and live journal was a really really
big one for me. I started my live journal when
I was fifteen, and I ended it when I was
like twenty one. And it's so crazy because my voice
(03:57):
hasn't really changed a lot, which I find very interesting.
And so it was on live journal and tumbler in
those kind of spaces where I really started to develop
a sense of myself and especially a sense of myself
in relation to hop culture. When you say that your
live journal hasn't changed much, what do you mean in particular?
Is there a tone that you still embody when you write? Well,
(04:20):
for one thing, it's all very sad, and I think
that I'm a sad writer, and I realized I'm like, wow,
Like I've been using writing as a way to heal
since I was a teenager and I didn't even know it.
So there's a lot of themes about just what I'm
going through and the art that I was being drawn
to as a way to deal with that pain. But
(04:41):
then I find that, like, I can be really dry
and sort of snarky in a way that I don't
even realize. And then reading back some of these entries,
I was like Oh, this girl had opinions about things,
you know, and it's like I would suggest to any
writer listening to this, Like I know people cringe thinking
about their old writing, but just go back and see
(05:01):
who you were. It's so revealing about a lot of things,
and like it's been a really cool experience. Actually, I
definitely have like tons and tons of journals from when
I was in primary school in high school, and it's true,
like you go back and it's like the essence of
who you are at like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, it's still
there even as an adult. But I want to talk
(05:23):
more about just a mindset. This might sound a little silly,
but I really think there's like a ZeVA aesthetic. Like
I love watching you on social It really is, girl.
It's like it's just so because it's so bright and
vivid and authentic. It's like all of you in your
joy and in your pain, and it feels very effortless.
But I know it's not. I know that you are
(05:44):
so intentional about what you share. Can you talk about
the intentionality and how you're able to do it? I
see myself as many things. I am a writer, but
I'm also a curator. You know in a sense, that's
what I'm doing on my Instagram page. I'm a tourist,
I'm very sensual, I love beauty. These are the fundamentals
of my personality, and these are the ways in which
(06:08):
I makes sense of world, makes sense of my life,
and find that joy a miss the pain. My next
book is about being of a generation where we literally
saw the Internet. Bro we grew with it right and
when we first interacted with this place, it was about
chat room, it was about connection. It was about hey, like,
(06:31):
what's this weird thing? And we are the only generation
who really had a complete perspective of that journey from
a place of connection to a place of commodification. How
do I commodify myself? How do I brand myself? You know,
we're constantly told as as creative people, as writers, that
you have to have a presence on the Internet in
(06:53):
order to have a career. I questioned that, like, I'm like,
is that true or is that something we're just being
told so that we play the game. The Internet for
me has always been about connection. There was a point
like two years ago when I was just like what
is this fool? Like, I have anxiety? What is this place?
Is like a place for me to go and feel
(07:14):
anxious about posting a selfie like this is not the
connection that I'm looking for. And so it was through
that discomfort and trying to figure out a way to
get that same vibe I had as a kid and
a teenager. People will send me messages about how these
images have meant so much to them, and I love
(07:34):
to hear that, and I think the gag for me
is that the same you know, like this is also
feeding me as much as it's feeding other people. And
that's the thing that I go to the internet forth
and again, like I can post these images about what
it means to struggle with your mental health and then
get hundreds of messages from black women who are like, wow, girl, same,
(07:56):
thank you so much. I feel seen. That is what
I think keeps me online. No, I'm the same way.
I mean the community and the response of the engagement
it fortifies you in such a real way. You speak
to that clearly in your introduction. I have your book
here is like highlighted this like all the tabs, and
(08:17):
there is this one line that like stood out to me,
and you say all this to say, the essays in
this book came together as I fell apart, and writing
about black women is the thing that put me together again,
that got me through, that helped me become reacquainted with
the concept of joy and freedom. And I think that's
all what you're speaking to. The Black women. Us together collectively,
(08:39):
uplift each other and encourage each other, help us see
the vision and affirm one another. And when it all
seems bleak and dark and at times hopeless, you know,
I would love to speak to that experience of just
like the collective love that we have from one another,
and how you've been able to not only create this
(08:59):
beautiful book in this career, but how your mental health
has been able to be boosted, you know. And it
feels like a simple thing, but it can be life saving. Yeah, yeah,
really can. For me. More than anything, what it gives
me is purpose being someone who is in a save
of depression and a save of anxiety. I need purpose
(09:22):
to sort of center myself and miss that storm, you know,
Like I know, ultimately when I write, it's something ancestral,
it's something bigger than me. And centering my writing specifically
on celebrating and spotlighting and just like expanding stories about
(09:43):
black women. I know that is my purpose and that's
the thing that makes the writing worth it, because writing
is a hard It is a hard, yes, if you
don't have that thing that makes it worth it. And
that thing could be whatever, though I see now more
(10:04):
than ever it can't be money. It can't be cloud.
That can't be the reason that you write. It's not sustainable.
It has to be about something outside of you, something
that's not tied at all to your ego. And I
think in the moments when I'm like the least attached
to my ego, I'm able to see through my pain
and my depression and get to the heart of matter.
(10:27):
We'll be back with more from Zeba Blay. I'm Glory Adam,
and you're listening to well read black Girl Today. I'm
talking to authors Zeba Blay, who's twenty twenty one debut
(10:50):
book Care for You. Black Girls, A Celebration of Black
Women in Pop Culture, is a thought provoking series of
essays centered on black life. I want to talk about
You mentioned curation earlier, and I agree you are a
wonderful curator and I loved how you set up these essays.
(11:11):
Can you talk about the structure and why you decided
to start off with Bodies and then closed with Free
of Cares. Can you talk about the process of putting
it together and what motivated you? It was definitely a
process because some of these essays I didn't even want
to be in the book, or like, because there were
like there's like four more essays that could have been
(11:32):
in the book. It was kind of like a puzzle
to figuring out what made sense in this overall theme
that felt like it only made sense in my head.
Initially the book was going to start with the Cardi
b chapter, and then it just felt like it made
more sense to start with the bodies because I feel
like when we talk about the black women in pop culture,
(11:53):
the body is often such a huge part of that discussion,
and so I sort of wanted to have that set
the tone. And then I always knew that Free of
Cares was going to be the last chapter in the
book because I was building towards white care free black
girls even means, and I like that it's the last
chapter that I wrote. It was the hardest chapter that
(12:13):
I wrote. Is a chapter that is definitely doing a
lot of things. There is what it's working. Yeah, for
those whoever they're the book. Yeah, can you give us
like a summary of that closing chapter. That closing chapter
opens talking about the phrase I'm free white in twenty
one that used to be a staple in old Hollywood movies.
(12:37):
And then from there we moved to talking about the
carefree BlackGirl movement itself. You know, what that even was?
What hashtags even do? Then we go into talking about
Brianna Taylor and her presence on the internet online, and
then the nmification of her name, and like grappling with
whether that actually means justice. I think for me, like
(13:01):
carefree black Girls was a hashtag that when it became
very popular a few years ago, there was a lot
of critique of it, you know, And it was that
critique of it that I was interested in. I'm less
interested in the girl with the three sea hair in
the crochet top and the flower crown, like that is
one thing, But I want to talk about why that
image is even conjured up for some people, you know.
(13:24):
So the chapter is really just a meditation on white
means to be free in a society that is fundamentally unfree,
you know. And that's a big question that I don't
fully answer, But I like that you know. No. I
think what that chapter does too is just open up
all these different possibilities. And again you talk about so
(13:45):
many things, and you close with the Kambahi River Collective
and this idea of, you know, the destruction of all
systems of oppression, and then you plainly say that destruction
begins with me. I love that kind of just like
freedom on the page, because you're asking questions that you
don't know the answer too necessarily, but you're not afraid
to ask them nonetheless, you know. Yeah. And I like
(14:07):
that you said that freedom on the page because I
think the whole time I was writing this book, I
was trying to be free on the page, and I
knew that I was holding myself back, and I was
in that chapter that I feel like I finally let
go a little bit. I feel like, when it comes
to your criticism, when it comes to your vulnerability, you
(14:30):
have a clarity about who you are. How did you
cultivate that honesty and that clarity? You know? I thought
about that a lot in the time since the book
has come out, because when I write, I just write.
I just have to keep going, you know, I can't
look back. And I think that's part of why I'm
able to do that because anytime that I write, I'm
(14:52):
trying to be honest. I'm not even trying to be good.
I'm just trying to be honest with myself, and honestly
takes an ability to let the thing out and not
dwell on it, you know. So there's that I think also,
being vulnerable for me hasn't always been about bravery, but
(15:12):
has been more about survival. Like I grew up in
a family where everything was hidden, no one talked about
how they felt or what they were going through, And
now in my adulthood, I can look back and see
the damage that that did personally to myself, to my family,
(15:34):
and the damage that that does to all of us.
And so there was a point in my life as
a writer where I knew that if I didn't share
what I was grappling with, what I was thinking about,
what my days were, I would die, you know, to
be quite honest. And so for me, it's always been
about resisting the need to disappear, you know. I think
(15:59):
that that's it's such a brave testimony to your work,
and I'd be curious to hear if you would define
it this way. But I do feel like your work
serves as a type of activism. And I'm thinking of
the piece that you did about the woman who made
the false allegation mark. Yes, that piece was bookmarked, okay,
(16:20):
But what you wrote was so pointed in like very clear,
like your stance, your ideology, how you felt about the situation,
but also the facts of the case. I mean even
the title of it was Amy Cooper and knew exactly
what she was doing. You speak to like what motivated
you to write that and how you were able to
really encourage other people to like, hey, this isn't okay. Yeah,
(16:40):
we can't let this happen. That was written at her post.
I was there for about five or six years, and
that was a time in my life as a writer
when I was writing a lot of think pieces and
quick hits on sort of like the racism of the day,
and often I made myself feel as if I had
to explain you know, that essay could have literally just
(17:04):
been one sense, like it was a sentence I knew
that had to be in there was like white people
are aware of racism, like they know what exists and
they actively participate in it. And that situation was a
prime example. So let's stop playing games. I'm gonna write
this piece and I'm going to call you out. You know, yes,
And that was a piece that I'm really proud of. Actually,
(17:25):
if we talk about pride, because I was like, I'm
done explaining. I'm tired of explaining. We explained all of
twenty twenty six and y'all don't care, right, right, So
call a thing you had the reckoning. Yeah, I'm the
same way too, Like I like to be uncomfortable at times,
to be uncertain, because what those moments and those feelings
(17:45):
lead to our real transformation. Like if you don't know something,
that means you have to go out and seek it
and understand and really sit with it and to take
it back to your book. I feel that like it's
okay for you not to have this like perfect understanding
of something you can learn. You can learn it and
become a better self. What are the things you feel
like you're still learning? What's inspiring you right now? I
(18:10):
think as a writer, I am still learning how to
let go. I think when I write, I have a
long process of just like getting over myself so that
I can get to the page. And it was very
difficult in writing this book, and it's getting a little easier.
But it's a process letting go. As a process, I'm
(18:33):
learning how to mother myself, take care of myself. And
I want to like write more books. I want to,
you know, write TV shows. I want to write movies.
And that is this whole new world that I'm entering
that I'm figuring out. I think those are the main
things that I'm learning. But there's like a lesson every day.
(18:54):
You know. Hi, I'm Zeba Blay and you're listening to
well read black Girl. Okay, it's time for rapid fire up. Okay, okay, okay.
(19:18):
So we're gonna just ask you a bunch of questions
and just like first answer, it comes to mind. First,
one favorite character from the TV show Girlfriends and why, oh, okay, Joan.
I know people don't like Joan for whatever reason, but
I just like a goofy black girl. You know. Oh
that's good. Okay, Name three items on your desk. One
(19:41):
is a little triptic tarot spread that my friend Kevin
gave me. And then I have a copy of Carefree
Black Girls, because that's like my motivations, Like, girl, you
wrote a book. And then I have an hourglass that
I like to use because I'm a procrastinator. That sound good.
Maybe I need al Oh favorite Ghanaian dish? Oh my god,
(20:06):
how can I choose? Oh? Okay, so favorite deaf is
uh banquein Okra soup. And then probably red Red which
is plantains and beans and foodfu. Of course, who doesn't
love foo? Yeah? I know food food so good? I
like five are all it's all good. It's all good. Um.
(20:29):
Name a movie that never gets old that you can
watch over and over and over and over again. Probably
Jimani not so cute waiting to exhale. What is better
the book or the movie? Okay, this is this is tricky.
(20:50):
I'm gonna have to say the movie is better. I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. I know it's it's I know it's so
hard because like Angela Bass Whitney Houston. Yeah, yeah, like
the visuals are so and then the soundtrack like all
of it just a great story. Maybe we'll just bring
(21:10):
you back for every episode. Well I talk about every
book and every movie. Oh my goodness. Well I'm so again.
I'm so happy. I'm like you are part of our
community forever and always. I'm so glad that we're on
our first season of our podcast, and like, it's just
I'm really really grateful for your work and just for you,
just like you as a person, as a human, and
(21:32):
like I'm grateful, thank you for having me. Whenever I
talk with Ziba, I'm reminded how important it is to
tell your story, no matter how scary it can be.
As black women, we need to take care of ourselves
and continue to create spaces where we take care of
(21:53):
each other. Ziba shows us how we put ourselves back
together through literature, one page at a time. Her debut book,
care Free Black Girls, a celebration of Black women in
pop culture, is out now. In our next episode, I'll
be joined by author Disha fill y'all well read black Girl.
(22:22):
It's a production of Pushkin Industries. It is written and
hosted by me Glory Dam and produced by Cher Vincent
and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor is Keishall Williams. Our
engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias.
(22:42):
Our executive producers are Miya Lobel and Leet Hall Molad
at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Fane Carl Migliori Jason Gambrel,
Julia Barton, Jen Goera, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You
can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Well read
black Girl. You can find pushkin and all social media
(23:05):
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(23:28):
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(23:52):
on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to
listen
Pushkin. Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts.
Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my
(00:38):
weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a
book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week.
You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts
like Revisious History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign
up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple
podcast or at pushkin dot com. Celebrating and spotlighting and
(01:12):
expanding stories about black women. I know that is my
purpose here. That is the thing that makes the writing
worth it. Because writing is hard. It is hard. Yes.
(01:32):
Zeba Blay is a writer and pop culture critic who
centers black life in everything she writes. She's also the
force behind the hashtag care free black Girl, which is
taken on a life of its own. It's part activism,
part mantra, part safe space. She released the book of
(01:52):
essays named after her viral hashtag in twenty twenty one,
and it was our February book Club pick. Welcome to
Well Read black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't even
know you needed. I'm your host ry Adam. Each week
(02:13):
I sit in conversation with one of my favorite authors.
We talk about the craft of writing and of course,
what it means to be well read. On today's episode,
Zeba and I talk about how she handled her mental
health journey, how the Internet shaped her writing, and how
intentionality is a bomb for her work. Welcome, ZeVA. How
(02:51):
are you just very excited to see your face and
be talking to you because you know I'm a stand
So yeah, do you remember when you first started writing?
Do you remember the first thing that you wrote that
really made you feel brave? So? I come from a
family of writers. My father's a journalist and Ghana mom
was a journalist. Everyone as a writer, so I grew
(03:14):
up always knowing that this was a form of expression
that I was innately plugged into. There was something in
my lineage that made it easy for me back then.
Now it's not so easy. But I started writing when
I was like ten, like little short stories. I would
like read The Babysitters Club and then like make my
own version of that kind of stuff. But I think
(03:35):
when I first really began to like find my voice
was the Internet, you know, discovering the Internet and discovering
sites like zanga and live journal was a really really
big one for me. I started my live journal when
I was fifteen, and I ended it when I was
like twenty one. And it's so crazy because my voice
(03:57):
hasn't really changed a lot, which I find very interesting.
And so it was on live journal and tumbler in
those kind of spaces where I really started to develop
a sense of myself and especially a sense of myself
in relation to hop culture. When you say that your
live journal hasn't changed much, what do you mean in particular?
Is there a tone that you still embody when you write? Well,
(04:20):
for one thing, it's all very sad, and I think
that I'm a sad writer, and I realized I'm like, wow,
Like I've been using writing as a way to heal
since I was a teenager and I didn't even know it.
So there's a lot of themes about just what I'm
going through and the art that I was being drawn
to as a way to deal with that pain. But
(04:41):
then I find that, like, I can be really dry
and sort of snarky in a way that I don't
even realize. And then reading back some of these entries,
I was like Oh, this girl had opinions about things,
you know, and it's like I would suggest to any
writer listening to this, Like I know people cringe thinking
about their old writing, but just go back and see
(05:01):
who you were. It's so revealing about a lot of things,
and like it's been a really cool experience. Actually, I
definitely have like tons and tons of journals from when
I was in primary school in high school, and it's true,
like you go back and it's like the essence of
who you are at like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, it's still
there even as an adult. But I want to talk
(05:23):
more about just a mindset. This might sound a little silly,
but I really think there's like a ZeVA aesthetic. Like
I love watching you on social It really is, girl.
It's like it's just so because it's so bright and
vivid and authentic. It's like all of you in your
joy and in your pain, and it feels very effortless.
But I know it's not. I know that you are
(05:44):
so intentional about what you share. Can you talk about
the intentionality and how you're able to do it? I
see myself as many things. I am a writer, but
I'm also a curator. You know in a sense, that's
what I'm doing on my Instagram page. I'm a tourist,
I'm very sensual, I love beauty. These are the fundamentals
of my personality, and these are the ways in which
(06:08):
I makes sense of world, makes sense of my life,
and find that joy a miss the pain. My next
book is about being of a generation where we literally
saw the Internet. Bro we grew with it right and
when we first interacted with this place, it was about
chat room, it was about connection. It was about hey, like,
(06:31):
what's this weird thing? And we are the only generation
who really had a complete perspective of that journey from
a place of connection to a place of commodification. How
do I commodify myself? How do I brand myself? You know,
we're constantly told as as creative people, as writers, that
you have to have a presence on the Internet in
(06:53):
order to have a career. I questioned that, like, I'm like,
is that true or is that something we're just being
told so that we play the game. The Internet for
me has always been about connection. There was a point
like two years ago when I was just like what
is this fool? Like, I have anxiety? What is this place?
Is like a place for me to go and feel
(07:14):
anxious about posting a selfie like this is not the
connection that I'm looking for. And so it was through
that discomfort and trying to figure out a way to
get that same vibe I had as a kid and
a teenager. People will send me messages about how these
images have meant so much to them, and I love
(07:34):
to hear that, and I think the gag for me
is that the same you know, like this is also
feeding me as much as it's feeding other people. And
that's the thing that I go to the internet forth
and again, like I can post these images about what
it means to struggle with your mental health and then
get hundreds of messages from black women who are like, wow, girl, same,
(07:56):
thank you so much. I feel seen. That is what
I think keeps me online. No, I'm the same way.
I mean the community and the response of the engagement
it fortifies you in such a real way. You speak
to that clearly in your introduction. I have your book
here is like highlighted this like all the tabs, and
(08:17):
there is this one line that like stood out to me,
and you say all this to say, the essays in
this book came together as I fell apart, and writing
about black women is the thing that put me together again,
that got me through, that helped me become reacquainted with
the concept of joy and freedom. And I think that's
all what you're speaking to. The Black women. Us together collectively,
(08:39):
uplift each other and encourage each other, help us see
the vision and affirm one another. And when it all
seems bleak and dark and at times hopeless, you know,
I would love to speak to that experience of just
like the collective love that we have from one another,
and how you've been able to not only create this
(08:59):
beautiful book in this career, but how your mental health
has been able to be boosted, you know. And it
feels like a simple thing, but it can be life saving. Yeah, yeah,
really can. For me. More than anything, what it gives
me is purpose being someone who is in a save
of depression and a save of anxiety. I need purpose
(09:22):
to sort of center myself and miss that storm, you know,
Like I know, ultimately when I write, it's something ancestral,
it's something bigger than me. And centering my writing specifically
on celebrating and spotlighting and just like expanding stories about
(09:43):
black women. I know that is my purpose and that's
the thing that makes the writing worth it, because writing
is a hard It is a hard, yes, if you
don't have that thing that makes it worth it. And
that thing could be whatever, though I see now more
(10:04):
than ever it can't be money. It can't be cloud.
That can't be the reason that you write. It's not sustainable.
It has to be about something outside of you, something
that's not tied at all to your ego. And I
think in the moments when I'm like the least attached
to my ego, I'm able to see through my pain
and my depression and get to the heart of matter.
(10:27):
We'll be back with more from Zeba Blay. I'm Glory Adam,
and you're listening to well read black Girl Today. I'm
talking to authors Zeba Blay, who's twenty twenty one debut
(10:50):
book Care for You. Black Girls, A Celebration of Black
Women in Pop Culture, is a thought provoking series of
essays centered on black life. I want to talk about
You mentioned curation earlier, and I agree you are a
wonderful curator and I loved how you set up these essays.
(11:11):
Can you talk about the structure and why you decided
to start off with Bodies and then closed with Free
of Cares. Can you talk about the process of putting
it together and what motivated you? It was definitely a
process because some of these essays I didn't even want
to be in the book, or like, because there were
like there's like four more essays that could have been
(11:32):
in the book. It was kind of like a puzzle
to figuring out what made sense in this overall theme
that felt like it only made sense in my head.
Initially the book was going to start with the Cardi
b chapter, and then it just felt like it made
more sense to start with the bodies because I feel
like when we talk about the black women in pop culture,
(11:53):
the body is often such a huge part of that discussion,
and so I sort of wanted to have that set
the tone. And then I always knew that Free of
Cares was going to be the last chapter in the
book because I was building towards white care free black
girls even means, and I like that it's the last
chapter that I wrote. It was the hardest chapter that
(12:13):
I wrote. Is a chapter that is definitely doing a
lot of things. There is what it's working. Yeah, for
those whoever they're the book. Yeah, can you give us
like a summary of that closing chapter. That closing chapter
opens talking about the phrase I'm free white in twenty
one that used to be a staple in old Hollywood movies.
(12:37):
And then from there we moved to talking about the
carefree BlackGirl movement itself. You know, what that even was?
What hashtags even do? Then we go into talking about
Brianna Taylor and her presence on the internet online, and
then the nmification of her name, and like grappling with
whether that actually means justice. I think for me, like
(13:01):
carefree black Girls was a hashtag that when it became
very popular a few years ago, there was a lot
of critique of it, you know, And it was that
critique of it that I was interested in. I'm less
interested in the girl with the three sea hair in
the crochet top and the flower crown, like that is
one thing, But I want to talk about why that
image is even conjured up for some people, you know.
(13:24):
So the chapter is really just a meditation on white
means to be free in a society that is fundamentally unfree,
you know. And that's a big question that I don't
fully answer, But I like that you know. No. I
think what that chapter does too is just open up
all these different possibilities. And again you talk about so
(13:45):
many things, and you close with the Kambahi River Collective
and this idea of, you know, the destruction of all
systems of oppression, and then you plainly say that destruction
begins with me. I love that kind of just like
freedom on the page, because you're asking questions that you
don't know the answer too necessarily, but you're not afraid
to ask them nonetheless, you know. Yeah. And I like
(14:07):
that you said that freedom on the page because I
think the whole time I was writing this book, I
was trying to be free on the page, and I
knew that I was holding myself back, and I was
in that chapter that I feel like I finally let
go a little bit. I feel like, when it comes
to your criticism, when it comes to your vulnerability, you
(14:30):
have a clarity about who you are. How did you
cultivate that honesty and that clarity? You know? I thought
about that a lot in the time since the book
has come out, because when I write, I just write.
I just have to keep going, you know, I can't
look back. And I think that's part of why I'm
able to do that because anytime that I write, I'm
(14:52):
trying to be honest. I'm not even trying to be good.
I'm just trying to be honest with myself, and honestly
takes an ability to let the thing out and not
dwell on it, you know. So there's that I think also,
being vulnerable for me hasn't always been about bravery, but
(15:12):
has been more about survival. Like I grew up in
a family where everything was hidden, no one talked about
how they felt or what they were going through, And
now in my adulthood, I can look back and see
the damage that that did personally to myself, to my family,
(15:34):
and the damage that that does to all of us.
And so there was a point in my life as
a writer where I knew that if I didn't share
what I was grappling with, what I was thinking about,
what my days were, I would die, you know, to
be quite honest. And so for me, it's always been
about resisting the need to disappear, you know. I think
(15:59):
that that's it's such a brave testimony to your work,
and I'd be curious to hear if you would define
it this way. But I do feel like your work
serves as a type of activism. And I'm thinking of
the piece that you did about the woman who made
the false allegation mark. Yes, that piece was bookmarked, okay,
(16:20):
But what you wrote was so pointed in like very clear,
like your stance, your ideology, how you felt about the situation,
but also the facts of the case. I mean even
the title of it was Amy Cooper and knew exactly
what she was doing. You speak to like what motivated
you to write that and how you were able to
really encourage other people to like, hey, this isn't okay. Yeah,
(16:40):
we can't let this happen. That was written at her post.
I was there for about five or six years, and
that was a time in my life as a writer
when I was writing a lot of think pieces and
quick hits on sort of like the racism of the day,
and often I made myself feel as if I had
to explain you know, that essay could have literally just
(17:04):
been one sense, like it was a sentence I knew
that had to be in there was like white people
are aware of racism, like they know what exists and
they actively participate in it. And that situation was a
prime example. So let's stop playing games. I'm gonna write
this piece and I'm going to call you out. You know, yes,
And that was a piece that I'm really proud of. Actually,
(17:25):
if we talk about pride, because I was like, I'm
done explaining. I'm tired of explaining. We explained all of
twenty twenty six and y'all don't care, right, right, So
call a thing you had the reckoning. Yeah, I'm the
same way too, Like I like to be uncomfortable at times,
to be uncertain, because what those moments and those feelings
(17:45):
lead to our real transformation. Like if you don't know something,
that means you have to go out and seek it
and understand and really sit with it and to take
it back to your book. I feel that like it's
okay for you not to have this like perfect understanding
of something you can learn. You can learn it and
become a better self. What are the things you feel
like you're still learning? What's inspiring you right now? I
(18:10):
think as a writer, I am still learning how to
let go. I think when I write, I have a
long process of just like getting over myself so that
I can get to the page. And it was very
difficult in writing this book, and it's getting a little easier.
But it's a process letting go. As a process, I'm
(18:33):
learning how to mother myself, take care of myself. And
I want to like write more books. I want to,
you know, write TV shows. I want to write movies.
And that is this whole new world that I'm entering
that I'm figuring out. I think those are the main
things that I'm learning. But there's like a lesson every day.
(18:54):
You know. Hi, I'm Zeba Blay and you're listening to
well read black Girl. Okay, it's time for rapid fire up. Okay, okay, okay.
(19:18):
So we're gonna just ask you a bunch of questions
and just like first answer, it comes to mind. First,
one favorite character from the TV show Girlfriends and why, oh, okay, Joan.
I know people don't like Joan for whatever reason, but
I just like a goofy black girl. You know. Oh
that's good. Okay, Name three items on your desk. One
(19:41):
is a little triptic tarot spread that my friend Kevin
gave me. And then I have a copy of Carefree
Black Girls, because that's like my motivations, Like, girl, you
wrote a book. And then I have an hourglass that
I like to use because I'm a procrastinator. That sound good.
Maybe I need al Oh favorite Ghanaian dish? Oh my god,
(20:06):
how can I choose? Oh? Okay, so favorite deaf is
uh banquein Okra soup. And then probably red Red which
is plantains and beans and foodfu. Of course, who doesn't
love foo? Yeah? I know food food so good? I
like five are all it's all good. It's all good. Um.
(20:29):
Name a movie that never gets old that you can
watch over and over and over and over again. Probably
Jimani not so cute waiting to exhale. What is better
the book or the movie? Okay, this is this is tricky.
(20:50):
I'm gonna have to say the movie is better. I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. I know it's it's I know it's so
hard because like Angela Bass Whitney Houston. Yeah, yeah, like
the visuals are so and then the soundtrack like all
of it just a great story. Maybe we'll just bring
(21:10):
you back for every episode. Well I talk about every
book and every movie. Oh my goodness. Well I'm so again.
I'm so happy. I'm like you are part of our
community forever and always. I'm so glad that we're on
our first season of our podcast, and like, it's just
I'm really really grateful for your work and just for you,
just like you as a person, as a human, and
(21:32):
like I'm grateful, thank you for having me. Whenever I
talk with Ziba, I'm reminded how important it is to
tell your story, no matter how scary it can be.
As black women, we need to take care of ourselves
and continue to create spaces where we take care of
(21:53):
each other. Ziba shows us how we put ourselves back
together through literature, one page at a time. Her debut book,
care Free Black Girls, a celebration of Black women in
pop culture, is out now. In our next episode, I'll
be joined by author Disha fill y'all well read black Girl.
(22:22):
It's a production of Pushkin Industries. It is written and
hosted by me Glory Dam and produced by Cher Vincent
and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor is Keishall Williams. Our
engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias.
(22:42):
Our executive producers are Miya Lobel and Leet Hall Molad
at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Fane Carl Migliori Jason Gambrel,
Julia Barton, Jen Goera, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You
can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Well read
black Girl. You can find pushkin and all social media
(23:05):
platforms at pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for
our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If you love this
show and others from Pushkin industry, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.
Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content
and uninterrupted listening for four ninety nine a month. Look
for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you're
(23:28):
already a subscriber, make sure to check out my exclusive
Bookmark series on Pushkin Plus. Starting on February eighteenth. You'll
hear extended interviews with book club members, bookstore owners, and more.
And do you get to hear what's on my mind,
What's on my radar, and of course what's on my
reading list each week. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen
(23:52):
on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to
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