December 16, 2024 • 30 mins
Do law enforcement officials really use psychics to solve cases? To find out, Lucy speaks with a psychic who worked on Dia's case. She also talks to a police psychologist who conducted studies with psychics while she was at the Los Angeles Police Department.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi, it's Lucy. This is a bonus episode of Where's Dea,
So if you haven't listened to the series yet, please
listen to that first, because our episode today is diving
into one of the more polarizing elements of the story,
the use of psychics in criminal investigations. While I reported
(00:43):
on the case of Dea Abrams, I found myself trying
to make sense of whether psychics are actually utilized in investigations,
and if so, whether they are actually helpful. I know
this part of the story was a sticking point for
a lot of you, and it's something I've been doing
more digging on since we released our last episode. You
(01:05):
might remember that Keith Harper, DEA's boyfriend, enlisted the help
of an organization called find Me to help him locate Dea.
Find Me was founded by ex DEA agent Kelly Snyder,
and relies on information from psychics to find missing people.
(01:26):
Harper first learned about find Me and Kelly Snyder because
of another missing person's case back in twenty twelve. A
thirteen year old named Dylan red Wine disappeared while he
was visiting his dad, who lived in Colorado. My producer
Jacob spoke with Kelly and Harper about the Dylan red
Wine case while they searched for Dea at Lake Hennett.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
He saw the case that we worked and we found
the guy, or found the kid, and the psychics actually
told us who killed him?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
What was the outcome there was there arrestmaker.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Oh yeah, it was the father killed him. It was
a big divorce and the kid hated the father and
the court forced him to go there on a visitation
and end result was he killed him. How did you
find the general area? A psychice told us where to go?
We went there and literally the guy who was in
(02:27):
charge of the investigation wanted us to go to the
twelve thousand foot level and work our way down, which
we did, but no one indicated that the kid was
up that high, and then went down to where our
psychic said that we may find him. And then the
team went in and Kiki was the name of the
(02:48):
dog that found him, found him within about twenty minutes
after going into the woods. And twenty minutes yeah, so yes.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
According to Kelly, the psychic was the one to point
them in the right direction, and then the search dog
did the rest of the work. The whole thing turned
into a bit of a circus, with a ton of
press coverage and at least a few articles which did
mention that investigators followed tips from psychics and mediums. Mark
(03:22):
Dylan's father was eventually arrested, and in twenty twenty one,
he was found guilty of murdering Dylan and sentenced to
forty eight years in prison. Reading about the case made
me understand the appeal of how Kelly works, and Harper
clearly felt the same way.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Nobody had a clue where he was.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Searches were done.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
He just like he disappeared into thin air, and then
Kelly comes in and within days solves the damn case.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, I'll take credit for it, but it's actually the
dogs and the psychics. The forty five million dollar reward
was worth it.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Yeah, I got forty five dollars. Solve it today.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Quick disclaimer here, we couldn't corroborate if Kelly's psychics actually
contributed to Dylan's case. One news article did mention cops
received tips from psychics, but only said that quote as
a matter of due diligence, law enforcement had to follow
up on many of them, and then another local news
story said that Dylan was found thanks to hours of
(04:37):
police manpower, not some psychic tip off. But there is
a testimonial on the find me website from a sergeant
investigator on the case. He thanked find me for their
help with searchers and wrote we are forever in their debt.
All of this made me more curious about how psychics
(05:00):
work with law enforcement and whether their work has any merit.
So in this episode, I'm asking a psychic and a
police psychologist about that. I'm Lucy Sheriff, and this is
Where's Deer. Today's episode all about psychics. We're going to
(05:37):
hear from a police psychologist in a bit, but let's
start with the psychic he actually worked on DEA's case.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
Psychics look like everyday people. I mean people are usually
shocked when they find.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Out what I do.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
This is Dave Campbell. He's based in Arizona, and the
first thing I learned while talking with him is that
in addition to being a psychic, he has a few
other skills too.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
Well, so a hypnotherapist. They talk to people when they sleep.
I talk to dead people. Wow, all kinds of fun stuff.
And then I'm also as an astrologer and I also
wrote the book called Forensic Astrology, which is solving crimes
using astrology, which works amazingly and synchronistically. If people have
(06:26):
no clue what that is either they think it's just
sunfighting astrology, and I'm saying, oh, the pastis did it?
Speaker 4 (06:31):
No, No, that's not it. We like to blame pass
for everything anything, So.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I'm of Icy's moon, so I can half take offense
to that.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Dave has been working with fire Me for years and,
like I said before, contributed to DIA's case, so I
wanted to hear about his experience and process. I would
love to hear how you got involved with Kelly Snyder,
like how you met him, because the funny thing about him,
it's like he is like the most unlikely person that
(07:06):
would be working with psychics, Like he's grasp She's like
like just me and potatoes.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
Guy.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I was like, well, who are you yourself?
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (07:16):
And a retired DEA agent. Yeah yeah, not You're typical.
So it's really synchronistic too, because during my schooling with
the astrology, my teacher really always liked to do mystery charts,
and I was solve crimes or figure out who murdered
who or where's this personnet? Are they alive or dead?
(07:38):
And so to bring in district attorneys that were working
on case and give us a bunch of cases just
with their charts, and we would amaze them with what
we could come up with. And so I started thinking,
you know, this really works, and so I just went
further and further and then did it on my own.
And I thought, how can I get in touch with
and just put it out there in the universe. And
(07:59):
then so one of my other friends said that she
was taking the same astrology class that she just found
this retired DEA agent who was helping find missing children
and what I wanted to join with her because she
knew I was interested. And I'm like, oh yeah, so
it kind of found me. I put it out there
and it found me synchronistically, and that was like two
(08:22):
thousand or two thousand and one. Well, I've been with
Kelly ever since. So it's been a long time and
I've worked on I don't even know how many cases.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And how does it work.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Does he put out a call and then you guys
kind of decide whether you want to help.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Yeah, we.
Speaker 6 (08:41):
Each case, he sends it to all of us and
we all just return it in what we get within
a week. I try to do all of them as
much as I can, Like sometimes I usually will meditate
on it first. I'll read the story like what we
do now, and we know very little. We usually just
get like they were missing on this day they were
last seen, and what's the circumstances what happened. So I
(09:05):
usually will get their birth date, I'll do their chart
the day they were missing, you know, put it all together,
see what I can see. I start pulling in the
information even then, you know, like as I say, oh,
it looks like this is very bad, you know, and
I can usually even then determine whether they're dead or not.
And then I do a meditation. I ask them if
(09:26):
they're in spirit, if they want to come and connect
with me. Sometimes they will, and sometimes they will launch,
and sometimes they refuse, which is because sometimes they don't
want to be found right at the moment. So I
do it day by day so I can keep getting
more information, and then I'll do like a terror reading
on it, and then I'll just do another psychic you know,
(09:47):
try to get any information I can get, and then
finally look at the charts and then usually I kind
of all kind of a puzzle starts to come together.
I never get paid to do any with a find
me stuff, and I don't want to, you know, it's
it's just what I do back for society and any
police work I've ever done when they come. I mean
(10:09):
I've had an independent police departments come to me too,
I know recharge.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So you worked on DA's case.
Speaker 6 (10:19):
Yes, I don't want to talk too much in detail
about it, but I will say, you know, general things.
I have really reluctance to talk about personal cases because
if there's still any open ended to it, or it's
not solved and put to bed in prison time you
can I mean, I've been stocked and almost killed before,
so I don't want that to happen. Yeah, not my
(10:40):
favorite thing to do. So I'm really reluctant to say
specifics on any case other than you know, unless I
know it's can't come back.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
But I did work on it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Can you remember what I mean?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The anyone I can think of is medium? What mediums
you used to work on DA's case? Were you using cards?
We're using astrology?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
I almost always use astrology.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Almost every case, and then I don't always use terror
but sometimes I do if I need more information or
want more, or if I just get.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Pulled to it. I always meditate.
Speaker 6 (11:23):
I always get psychic scept as well, and it usually
even starts with the charts, and usually.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
If the even is better.
Speaker 6 (11:34):
Which I keep trying to tell people, if they would
give me the birth time of the person, it's like
nine day difference. It's like pleasy, hanzy information versus sharp,
clear perceptive, like I know exactly this.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Did you get a hard time of No, there's no
time of birth. Why don't I try to find it?
Speaker 4 (11:52):
That would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I can find it.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Yeah, okay, that would be very helpful.
Speaker 6 (11:57):
So yeah, like I say, I usually work on a
case for usually about a week, and then once I've
turned it in, I kind of let everything go. I've
had to learn to do that otherwise are we bonkers?
And I tried to let everything go in that even
if it's not solved or whatever. I just you can't
hang on to it unless it comes up again, and
if he asks me, then I.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Revisited going back to the astrology. I'm really fascinated how
you use it to locate somebody or to find out
what happened.
Speaker 6 (12:31):
Okay, so there's two different methods you can do profiling
with it. I did a whole case study of serial
killers charts, which was really crazy and fascinating to see
if there was patterns, to see if I could tell
why they did what they did. And there's similar patterns
in almost all of them.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Are they Is that why you made the no?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
No?
Speaker 7 (12:51):
I was just.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Yeah. So the profiling is one thing.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
And then also the transit to the time of the
planets of like, somebody gets killed, the day and time
of that killing is a chart itself, and so I
overlay it with the chart of the natal chart and
see what was happening, it was triggering if if there
was potential for you know, if it shows murder, it
should then it'll be in the chart. Then if they
(13:19):
give me suspects or if I can find, you know, suspects,
I can do their natal chart and the transits for
that day. Does it look like they were triggered to violence?
If not, they probably didn't do it. But I also
see if there was a violent combination between the two people.
So I'm looking at a lot of different things, a
lot of different charts together.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And what like, what do you say to people who
are skeptical about all of this, because obviously there's a
lot of non believers out there. Do you kind of
just strug them off or.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I don't pay attention anymore? I don't really care.
Speaker 6 (13:53):
I mean, I've proved myself so many times, and I
think the being scientifically tested really gave me confidence to like,
you know, like I don't need to prove myself anymore.
If you want to prove it to yourself, then come
to get a reading. I actually have quite a few
friends that are cops, so they come to me for readings,
(14:16):
and I've had detectives come for readings I've had, you know,
so they know I can do what I do. They
come to my medium night and get you know, they'll
bring their families. So yeah, I'm sure they don't talk
about it too much. But it is really frustrating because
some police departments refuse our answers. Even if we gave
it to them and said this is where the body
(14:37):
is or who did it, they won't take it. And
I'm like, that's just crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Why do you think there's this reluctance to acknowledge the
usefulness of psychics.
Speaker 6 (14:51):
I think that they partly it's ego like that they
want to be the ones responsible, which is okay, and
I think that the police do.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
They do fine. They do the actual work.
Speaker 6 (15:03):
We're just a tool that they could use a tool,
and that's it. They still have to do all the
please work and you know, due diligence and go be
the ground.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
But I do think.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
They should use this a lot more than they do,
and I would rather they do it sooner than later,
because usually when later been a missing person means they're
already passed ninety percent of the time in my case,
so I would rather find them while they're still alive
and could be saved, rather than when they've gone cold
and can't figure it out and it's too late.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I desperately want to believe Dave, but there's another side
of me that still has questions. And until I can
find a cop who will openly say, yes, we've used
psychics to help as solve a murder or find a
missing person, I think those questions will always remain. After
the break. I speak with a researcher who conducted studies
(16:04):
with psychics while she was at the Los Angeles Police Department.
Speaker 7 (16:09):
We found with the psychics did come up with some
very interesting clueser information.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
It's hard to say how seriously law enforcement listens to
psychics like Dave. A lot of departments categorically say they
don't use them, at least that's what I've read. The
research on psychics and crime solving is also pretty sparse,
but one study caught my eye, an older one from
nineteen seventy nine. There was a collaboration between the Los
(17:01):
Angeles Police Department and an associate professor at Los Angeles
City College.
Speaker 7 (17:07):
Yeah, just for fan We'll do anything. People will cancer,
will go to Mexico and eat grapefruit or whatever it is.
I mean, people will try anything, and the police departments
won't stop people from doing what they think they need
to do as long as it doesn't interfere with the
police worker or the investigation to get the job done.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
This is doctor Susan Sachs Clifford.
Speaker 7 (17:34):
I'm a licensed psychologist and a board certified in police
and Public safety, and I spent fourteen years with LAPD
in the beginning of my career, and then for many
years I've had a private consulting business, consulting with law
enforcement and public safety agencies, mostly on assessment.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
In the seventies, Susan was a staff psychologist with the LAPD,
eager to put her knowledge of research design and evaluation
to use, which is how she became involved in this
study of psychics.
Speaker 7 (18:08):
At that time, a group of psychics approached LAPD and
they had some credentials on and I don't recall their association,
and we decided to do a well designed study on
actual cases to see if they could provide information that
(18:29):
would lead to the solution of crimes. LAPD was completely
open to it, and we sat down with the representatives
of the parapsychologists and designed a formal study.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
What do you think it was about the environment that
made it right for this study? Do you think it
was the fund that it was la Was it the seventies?
You said the LAPD were open to it, which now sounds,
you know, feel surprising to hear.
Speaker 7 (19:02):
Well, I think it would not be surprising, and I
think that people have images of rigid approaches and rigid mindsets.
But truthfully, if anything would work, it would be looked at.
And I was new and young and had my credentials,
(19:24):
and I don't remember if I brought it forward, or
if they had brought it to me, but saying, well,
let's you know, we're not going to shut down all
these people that come forward, but we also can't invest
a lot of time because we're really trying to get
something done to solve these crimes. So let's take a
(19:44):
look at it. You know, who knows. And I remember
being very very happy to be able to do an
actual research design, you know, and off we went.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So can you explain the setup of the study and
how did you decide what you were going to ask?
Speaker 7 (20:05):
The study was actually very interesting because, as I said,
the parapsychologists had a lot of input. What we decided
was to take a number of cases. I don't remember
if it was ten or a dozen, but we took
cases that actually had been solved but were not published,
so the information wasn't out there, but the cases that
(20:26):
had been solved. The parapsychologists suggested that we take evidence
from those cases, put them in sealed envelopes, have the
psychics put their hands above the envelopes, not touch the envelopes,
and come up with details of the crime and see
if any of those details match the actual actual crime.
(20:50):
And then we went to wherever they wanted to meet,
and mostly was the homes of the psychics. A very
diverse group of people, I mean really some you know,
people that would want to make you smile, you know,
tinfoil on their head and whatever, and others who were
you know, you know, business attire, all kinds of people.
(21:14):
And we did that. We gathered all the information that
they had to say, and then we looked at actual statistics.
What were the elements of the crime, So what were.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Can you kind of give me the top line of
the results and what that was in there.
Speaker 7 (21:32):
So what we found with the psychics did come up
with some very interesting clueser information. For example, one said
that he or she I don't remember which saw a
very brightly painted coal full door. Well, it turns out
that the victim did in fact live behind a brightly
(21:54):
painted I think it was a green door, and that
was like ooh, but it didn't lead to anything. It
didn't lead to further ability to research or to find anything.
Another one had said that he sees the victim has
been in a bar within the last week. That was true,
(22:14):
but again it didn't lead to a solution. And yet
a third said that he saw a church, and the
victim had been a caretaker and a church. Those were
the three sort of clues that we got that were
somewhat related to the crimes, but not enough information to
take another step.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
So just a quick recap here. Even though the psychics
in their study got certain details right, they didn't end
up providing any information that would help police departments solve
the cases. The paper wraps up with this we are
forced to conclude, based on our results, that the usefulness
(22:57):
of psychics as an age in criminal investigation has not
been validated. Later on, Susan helped out with another study
to see if the results would be read lolicated. This
time the researchers added two control groups, college students and
homicide detectives.
Speaker 7 (23:19):
And then my job was to go to the homicide investigators,
which was quite interesting. These were the old homicide investigator
teams that you would envision, you know, crusty, own guys
with a cigar and tons and tons of experience with
the homicides. But they were also very kind and cooperative
(23:40):
and did exactly what we told them to do. But
can you imagine telling and experienced homicide investigator, oh you
can't look in the bag and you can't touch the bag,
just float your hand above us and tell us about
the crime. So I had some eye rolls, and you know,
I think they put up with me because I was,
you know, bright eyed and excited in twenty three.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
That's hilarious.
Speaker 7 (24:05):
It really was. Most of my career was like that.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
The researchers surveyed all three groups. They looked to see
how many of the details each group got right about
the cases. The study seemed to confirm the results of
the first. Even though each group got some details right,
none of them came up with information that would help
actually solve a case. And not only did the psychics
(24:30):
fail to come up with useful information, the homicide detectives
got just about as many details right as they did.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
And the reason was they just went into their experience
and pulled out the most common threads or the most
common issues that they would find in all of their experience. Again,
it would not have led particularly to a solution of
a crime, but it might have narrowed down their search
(25:01):
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Now, these studies were both fairly small, the authors recommended
further research into this area. So, like I said, I
couldn't find much. I asked Susan about this.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
I think, first of all, it's not front and center
of what most agencies do. And I think it was
unique at that time because there was a cooperation and
everybody went in the department and they really went out
on a limb. I'm not sure that they expected any results,
but they gave it an honest look and put resources
(25:38):
into it. I don't know, I don't know why. I
think maybe that study was sort of the end agencies
looked at that and said, well, okay.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
I did find, by the way, a five page a
journal I guess general article. It appeared on the Department
of just US Department of Justice, and it was about
the usefulness of psychics and police investigations and the annotation
is their usefulness is controversial, but psychics have long been
(26:11):
a more undoubtedly continue to be involved in unsolved criminal investigations.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
And that was in nineteen ninety three. I don't know
if you ever saw that.
Speaker 7 (26:21):
I didn't, but that that does make sense.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, so that kind of really piqued my interest, and yeah,
I was so desperate to see if there was anything else.
So it feels like there's there's sort of like rumors
floating around, but that they have been used, but it
feels like no one's quite willing to come and say
on the records, you know, we use them and successfully so.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And I kind of wonder if there's a stigma around it.
Speaker 7 (26:53):
And I I think that if it was terribly useful,
it would be it would be a wonderful tool. I
just never heard that. Certainly, there are people who are intuitive,
very intelligent, and and me approach things in a different way.
I mean, we see on television, you know, all kinds
(27:14):
of superhero types who you think outside the box and
see things differently, and that's you know, that's all good.
But the psychic ability, and again they put their hands
above that envelope. I don't know that it would have
been any different had they opened the envelope. I mean,
(27:36):
I don't think it would have added anything really. But
this has been around for centuries, for centuries and centuries,
you know, back from ancient Rome to the Oracles. You know,
it's always been around. People are always wanting and hoping,
(27:57):
and I imagine it will be around for centuries to come.
I just don't know of any other well designed research
studies with a control group that I have seen that
would provide any anything solid.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
It's a shame there hasn't been more research into using
psychics to help law enforcement, or if they already are
working together, that law enforcement isn't more open about it.
Surely finding missing people is the priority, right rather than
keeping up appearances. I couldn't help thinking back to what
(28:38):
Kelly Snyder said about Riverside's reluctance to use his information
to find Dea. What if the cops had searched Lake
Hemis sooner like Kelly was urging them to. What if
they'd search that strange Arizona coordinate. There wasn't too far
from Harper's route to New Mexico. By the way, I
(28:59):
found DEA's birth time, and I've passed it on to
Dave Campbell, so you can look into a case again
with this new detail. Maybe I believe in it all,
Maybe I don't, but I'm going to be very intrigued
to see what he comes up with. Where's Dear Is
(29:46):
written and hosted by me Lucy Sheriff. Our producer is
Daphne Chen, editing by Karen Shakerji, fact checking by Lauren Vespoli.
Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Original score by Echo
Shaw's mastering by Jacob Gorsky. Where's is a co production
(30:10):
of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. You can listen to all
of Where's Dea right now ad free by becoming a
Pushkin Plus subscriber. Find Pushkin Plus on the Apple show
(30:31):
page for Where's Dea, or at pushkin dot fm slash
plus
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi, it's Lucy. This is a bonus episode of Where's Dea,
So if you haven't listened to the series yet, please
listen to that first, because our episode today is diving
into one of the more polarizing elements of the story,
the use of psychics in criminal investigations. While I reported
(00:43):
on the case of Dea Abrams, I found myself trying
to make sense of whether psychics are actually utilized in investigations,
and if so, whether they are actually helpful. I know
this part of the story was a sticking point for
a lot of you, and it's something I've been doing
more digging on since we released our last episode. You
(01:05):
might remember that Keith Harper, DEA's boyfriend, enlisted the help
of an organization called find Me to help him locate Dea.
Find Me was founded by ex DEA agent Kelly Snyder,
and relies on information from psychics to find missing people.
(01:26):
Harper first learned about find Me and Kelly Snyder because
of another missing person's case back in twenty twelve. A
thirteen year old named Dylan red Wine disappeared while he
was visiting his dad, who lived in Colorado. My producer
Jacob spoke with Kelly and Harper about the Dylan red
Wine case while they searched for Dea at Lake Hennett.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
He saw the case that we worked and we found
the guy, or found the kid, and the psychics actually
told us who killed him?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
What was the outcome there was there arrestmaker.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Oh yeah, it was the father killed him. It was
a big divorce and the kid hated the father and
the court forced him to go there on a visitation
and end result was he killed him. How did you
find the general area? A psychice told us where to go?
We went there and literally the guy who was in
(02:27):
charge of the investigation wanted us to go to the
twelve thousand foot level and work our way down, which
we did, but no one indicated that the kid was
up that high, and then went down to where our
psychic said that we may find him. And then the
team went in and Kiki was the name of the
(02:48):
dog that found him, found him within about twenty minutes
after going into the woods. And twenty minutes yeah, so yes.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
According to Kelly, the psychic was the one to point
them in the right direction, and then the search dog
did the rest of the work. The whole thing turned
into a bit of a circus, with a ton of
press coverage and at least a few articles which did
mention that investigators followed tips from psychics and mediums. Mark
(03:22):
Dylan's father was eventually arrested, and in twenty twenty one,
he was found guilty of murdering Dylan and sentenced to
forty eight years in prison. Reading about the case made
me understand the appeal of how Kelly works, and Harper
clearly felt the same way.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Nobody had a clue where he was.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Searches were done.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
He just like he disappeared into thin air, and then
Kelly comes in and within days solves the damn case.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Well, I'll take credit for it, but it's actually the
dogs and the psychics. The forty five million dollar reward
was worth it.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Yeah, I got forty five dollars. Solve it today.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Quick disclaimer here, we couldn't corroborate if Kelly's psychics actually
contributed to Dylan's case. One news article did mention cops
received tips from psychics, but only said that quote as
a matter of due diligence, law enforcement had to follow
up on many of them, and then another local news
story said that Dylan was found thanks to hours of
(04:37):
police manpower, not some psychic tip off. But there is
a testimonial on the find me website from a sergeant
investigator on the case. He thanked find me for their
help with searchers and wrote we are forever in their debt.
All of this made me more curious about how psychics
(05:00):
work with law enforcement and whether their work has any merit.
So in this episode, I'm asking a psychic and a
police psychologist about that. I'm Lucy Sheriff, and this is
Where's Deer. Today's episode all about psychics. We're going to
(05:37):
hear from a police psychologist in a bit, but let's
start with the psychic he actually worked on DEA's case.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
Psychics look like everyday people. I mean people are usually
shocked when they find.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Out what I do.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
This is Dave Campbell. He's based in Arizona, and the
first thing I learned while talking with him is that
in addition to being a psychic, he has a few
other skills too.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
Well, so a hypnotherapist. They talk to people when they sleep.
I talk to dead people. Wow, all kinds of fun stuff.
And then I'm also as an astrologer and I also
wrote the book called Forensic Astrology, which is solving crimes
using astrology, which works amazingly and synchronistically. If people have
(06:26):
no clue what that is either they think it's just
sunfighting astrology, and I'm saying, oh, the pastis did it?
Speaker 4 (06:31):
No, No, that's not it. We like to blame pass
for everything anything, So.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
I'm of Icy's moon, so I can half take offense
to that.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Dave has been working with fire Me for years and,
like I said before, contributed to DIA's case, so I
wanted to hear about his experience and process. I would
love to hear how you got involved with Kelly Snyder,
like how you met him, because the funny thing about him,
it's like he is like the most unlikely person that
(07:06):
would be working with psychics, Like he's grasp She's like
like just me and potatoes.
Speaker 5 (07:12):
Guy.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I was like, well, who are you yourself?
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (07:16):
And a retired DEA agent. Yeah yeah, not You're typical.
So it's really synchronistic too, because during my schooling with
the astrology, my teacher really always liked to do mystery charts,
and I was solve crimes or figure out who murdered
who or where's this personnet? Are they alive or dead?
(07:38):
And so to bring in district attorneys that were working
on case and give us a bunch of cases just
with their charts, and we would amaze them with what
we could come up with. And so I started thinking,
you know, this really works, and so I just went
further and further and then did it on my own.
And I thought, how can I get in touch with
and just put it out there in the universe. And
(07:59):
then so one of my other friends said that she
was taking the same astrology class that she just found
this retired DEA agent who was helping find missing children
and what I wanted to join with her because she
knew I was interested. And I'm like, oh yeah, so
it kind of found me. I put it out there
and it found me synchronistically, and that was like two
(08:22):
thousand or two thousand and one. Well, I've been with
Kelly ever since. So it's been a long time and
I've worked on I don't even know how many cases.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And how does it work.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Does he put out a call and then you guys
kind of decide whether you want to help.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Yeah, we.
Speaker 6 (08:41):
Each case, he sends it to all of us and
we all just return it in what we get within
a week. I try to do all of them as
much as I can, Like sometimes I usually will meditate
on it first. I'll read the story like what we
do now, and we know very little. We usually just
get like they were missing on this day they were
last seen, and what's the circumstances what happened. So I
(09:05):
usually will get their birth date, I'll do their chart
the day they were missing, you know, put it all together,
see what I can see. I start pulling in the
information even then, you know, like as I say, oh,
it looks like this is very bad, you know, and
I can usually even then determine whether they're dead or not.
And then I do a meditation. I ask them if
(09:26):
they're in spirit, if they want to come and connect
with me. Sometimes they will, and sometimes they will launch,
and sometimes they refuse, which is because sometimes they don't
want to be found right at the moment. So I
do it day by day so I can keep getting
more information, and then I'll do like a terror reading
on it, and then I'll just do another psychic you know,
(09:47):
try to get any information I can get, and then
finally look at the charts and then usually I kind
of all kind of a puzzle starts to come together.
I never get paid to do any with a find
me stuff, and I don't want to, you know, it's
it's just what I do back for society and any
police work I've ever done when they come. I mean
(10:09):
I've had an independent police departments come to me too,
I know recharge.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So you worked on DA's case.
Speaker 6 (10:19):
Yes, I don't want to talk too much in detail
about it, but I will say, you know, general things.
I have really reluctance to talk about personal cases because
if there's still any open ended to it, or it's
not solved and put to bed in prison time you
can I mean, I've been stocked and almost killed before,
so I don't want that to happen. Yeah, not my
(10:40):
favorite thing to do. So I'm really reluctant to say
specifics on any case other than you know, unless I
know it's can't come back.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
But I did work on it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Can you remember what I mean?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The anyone I can think of is medium? What mediums
you used to work on DA's case? Were you using cards?
We're using astrology?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
I almost always use astrology.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Almost every case, and then I don't always use terror
but sometimes I do if I need more information or
want more, or if I just get.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Pulled to it. I always meditate.
Speaker 6 (11:23):
I always get psychic scept as well, and it usually
even starts with the charts, and usually.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
If the even is better.
Speaker 6 (11:34):
Which I keep trying to tell people, if they would
give me the birth time of the person, it's like
nine day difference. It's like pleasy, hanzy information versus sharp,
clear perceptive, like I know exactly this.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Did you get a hard time of No, there's no
time of birth. Why don't I try to find it?
Speaker 4 (11:52):
That would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I can find it.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Yeah, okay, that would be very helpful.
Speaker 6 (11:57):
So yeah, like I say, I usually work on a
case for usually about a week, and then once I've
turned it in, I kind of let everything go. I've
had to learn to do that otherwise are we bonkers?
And I tried to let everything go in that even
if it's not solved or whatever. I just you can't
hang on to it unless it comes up again, and
if he asks me, then I.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Revisited going back to the astrology. I'm really fascinated how
you use it to locate somebody or to find out
what happened.
Speaker 6 (12:31):
Okay, so there's two different methods you can do profiling
with it. I did a whole case study of serial
killers charts, which was really crazy and fascinating to see
if there was patterns, to see if I could tell
why they did what they did. And there's similar patterns
in almost all of them.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Are they Is that why you made the no?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
No?
Speaker 7 (12:51):
I was just.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Yeah. So the profiling is one thing.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
And then also the transit to the time of the
planets of like, somebody gets killed, the day and time
of that killing is a chart itself, and so I
overlay it with the chart of the natal chart and
see what was happening, it was triggering if if there
was potential for you know, if it shows murder, it
should then it'll be in the chart. Then if they
(13:19):
give me suspects or if I can find, you know, suspects,
I can do their natal chart and the transits for
that day. Does it look like they were triggered to violence?
If not, they probably didn't do it. But I also
see if there was a violent combination between the two people.
So I'm looking at a lot of different things, a
lot of different charts together.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And what like, what do you say to people who
are skeptical about all of this, because obviously there's a
lot of non believers out there. Do you kind of
just strug them off or.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
I don't pay attention anymore? I don't really care.
Speaker 6 (13:53):
I mean, I've proved myself so many times, and I
think the being scientifically tested really gave me confidence to like,
you know, like I don't need to prove myself anymore.
If you want to prove it to yourself, then come
to get a reading. I actually have quite a few
friends that are cops, so they come to me for readings,
(14:16):
and I've had detectives come for readings I've had, you know,
so they know I can do what I do. They
come to my medium night and get you know, they'll
bring their families. So yeah, I'm sure they don't talk
about it too much. But it is really frustrating because
some police departments refuse our answers. Even if we gave
it to them and said this is where the body
(14:37):
is or who did it, they won't take it. And
I'm like, that's just crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Why do you think there's this reluctance to acknowledge the
usefulness of psychics.
Speaker 6 (14:51):
I think that they partly it's ego like that they
want to be the ones responsible, which is okay, and
I think that the police do.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
They do fine. They do the actual work.
Speaker 6 (15:03):
We're just a tool that they could use a tool,
and that's it. They still have to do all the
please work and you know, due diligence and go be
the ground.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
But I do think.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
They should use this a lot more than they do,
and I would rather they do it sooner than later,
because usually when later been a missing person means they're
already passed ninety percent of the time in my case,
so I would rather find them while they're still alive
and could be saved, rather than when they've gone cold
and can't figure it out and it's too late.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I desperately want to believe Dave, but there's another side
of me that still has questions. And until I can
find a cop who will openly say, yes, we've used
psychics to help as solve a murder or find a
missing person, I think those questions will always remain. After
the break. I speak with a researcher who conducted studies
(16:04):
with psychics while she was at the Los Angeles Police Department.
Speaker 7 (16:09):
We found with the psychics did come up with some
very interesting clueser information.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
It's hard to say how seriously law enforcement listens to
psychics like Dave. A lot of departments categorically say they
don't use them, at least that's what I've read. The
research on psychics and crime solving is also pretty sparse,
but one study caught my eye, an older one from
nineteen seventy nine. There was a collaboration between the Los
(17:01):
Angeles Police Department and an associate professor at Los Angeles
City College.
Speaker 7 (17:07):
Yeah, just for fan We'll do anything. People will cancer,
will go to Mexico and eat grapefruit or whatever it is.
I mean, people will try anything, and the police departments
won't stop people from doing what they think they need
to do as long as it doesn't interfere with the
police worker or the investigation to get the job done.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
This is doctor Susan Sachs Clifford.
Speaker 7 (17:34):
I'm a licensed psychologist and a board certified in police
and Public safety, and I spent fourteen years with LAPD
in the beginning of my career, and then for many
years I've had a private consulting business, consulting with law
enforcement and public safety agencies, mostly on assessment.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
In the seventies, Susan was a staff psychologist with the LAPD,
eager to put her knowledge of research design and evaluation
to use, which is how she became involved in this
study of psychics.
Speaker 7 (18:08):
At that time, a group of psychics approached LAPD and
they had some credentials on and I don't recall their association,
and we decided to do a well designed study on
actual cases to see if they could provide information that
(18:29):
would lead to the solution of crimes. LAPD was completely
open to it, and we sat down with the representatives
of the parapsychologists and designed a formal study.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
What do you think it was about the environment that
made it right for this study? Do you think it
was the fund that it was la Was it the seventies?
You said the LAPD were open to it, which now sounds,
you know, feel surprising to hear.
Speaker 7 (19:02):
Well, I think it would not be surprising, and I
think that people have images of rigid approaches and rigid mindsets.
But truthfully, if anything would work, it would be looked at.
And I was new and young and had my credentials,
(19:24):
and I don't remember if I brought it forward, or
if they had brought it to me, but saying, well,
let's you know, we're not going to shut down all
these people that come forward, but we also can't invest
a lot of time because we're really trying to get
something done to solve these crimes. So let's take a
(19:44):
look at it. You know, who knows. And I remember
being very very happy to be able to do an
actual research design, you know, and off we went.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So can you explain the setup of the study and
how did you decide what you were going to ask?
Speaker 7 (20:05):
The study was actually very interesting because, as I said,
the parapsychologists had a lot of input. What we decided
was to take a number of cases. I don't remember
if it was ten or a dozen, but we took
cases that actually had been solved but were not published,
so the information wasn't out there, but the cases that
(20:26):
had been solved. The parapsychologists suggested that we take evidence
from those cases, put them in sealed envelopes, have the
psychics put their hands above the envelopes, not touch the envelopes,
and come up with details of the crime and see
if any of those details match the actual actual crime.
(20:50):
And then we went to wherever they wanted to meet,
and mostly was the homes of the psychics. A very
diverse group of people, I mean really some you know,
people that would want to make you smile, you know,
tinfoil on their head and whatever, and others who were
you know, you know, business attire, all kinds of people.
(21:14):
And we did that. We gathered all the information that
they had to say, and then we looked at actual statistics.
What were the elements of the crime, So what were.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Can you kind of give me the top line of
the results and what that was in there.
Speaker 7 (21:32):
So what we found with the psychics did come up
with some very interesting clueser information. For example, one said
that he or she I don't remember which saw a
very brightly painted coal full door. Well, it turns out
that the victim did in fact live behind a brightly
(21:54):
painted I think it was a green door, and that
was like ooh, but it didn't lead to anything. It
didn't lead to further ability to research or to find anything.
Another one had said that he sees the victim has
been in a bar within the last week. That was true,
(22:14):
but again it didn't lead to a solution. And yet
a third said that he saw a church, and the
victim had been a caretaker and a church. Those were
the three sort of clues that we got that were
somewhat related to the crimes, but not enough information to
take another step.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
So just a quick recap here. Even though the psychics
in their study got certain details right, they didn't end
up providing any information that would help police departments solve
the cases. The paper wraps up with this we are
forced to conclude, based on our results, that the usefulness
(22:57):
of psychics as an age in criminal investigation has not
been validated. Later on, Susan helped out with another study
to see if the results would be read lolicated. This
time the researchers added two control groups, college students and
homicide detectives.
Speaker 7 (23:19):
And then my job was to go to the homicide investigators,
which was quite interesting. These were the old homicide investigator
teams that you would envision, you know, crusty, own guys
with a cigar and tons and tons of experience with
the homicides. But they were also very kind and cooperative
(23:40):
and did exactly what we told them to do. But
can you imagine telling and experienced homicide investigator, oh you
can't look in the bag and you can't touch the bag,
just float your hand above us and tell us about
the crime. So I had some eye rolls, and you know,
I think they put up with me because I was,
you know, bright eyed and excited in twenty three.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
That's hilarious.
Speaker 7 (24:05):
It really was. Most of my career was like that.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
The researchers surveyed all three groups. They looked to see
how many of the details each group got right about
the cases. The study seemed to confirm the results of
the first. Even though each group got some details right,
none of them came up with information that would help
actually solve a case. And not only did the psychics
(24:30):
fail to come up with useful information, the homicide detectives
got just about as many details right as they did.
Speaker 7 (24:37):
And the reason was they just went into their experience
and pulled out the most common threads or the most
common issues that they would find in all of their experience. Again,
it would not have led particularly to a solution of
a crime, but it might have narrowed down their search
(25:01):
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Now, these studies were both fairly small, the authors recommended
further research into this area. So, like I said, I
couldn't find much. I asked Susan about this.
Speaker 7 (25:15):
I think, first of all, it's not front and center
of what most agencies do. And I think it was
unique at that time because there was a cooperation and
everybody went in the department and they really went out
on a limb. I'm not sure that they expected any results,
but they gave it an honest look and put resources
(25:38):
into it. I don't know, I don't know why. I
think maybe that study was sort of the end agencies
looked at that and said, well, okay.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
I did find, by the way, a five page a
journal I guess general article. It appeared on the Department
of just US Department of Justice, and it was about
the usefulness of psychics and police investigations and the annotation
is their usefulness is controversial, but psychics have long been
(26:11):
a more undoubtedly continue to be involved in unsolved criminal investigations.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
And that was in nineteen ninety three. I don't know
if you ever saw that.
Speaker 7 (26:21):
I didn't, but that that does make sense.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, so that kind of really piqued my interest, and yeah,
I was so desperate to see if there was anything else.
So it feels like there's there's sort of like rumors
floating around, but that they have been used, but it
feels like no one's quite willing to come and say
on the records, you know, we use them and successfully so.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And I kind of wonder if there's a stigma around it.
Speaker 7 (26:53):
And I I think that if it was terribly useful,
it would be it would be a wonderful tool. I
just never heard that. Certainly, there are people who are intuitive,
very intelligent, and and me approach things in a different way.
I mean, we see on television, you know, all kinds
(27:14):
of superhero types who you think outside the box and
see things differently, and that's you know, that's all good.
But the psychic ability, and again they put their hands
above that envelope. I don't know that it would have
been any different had they opened the envelope. I mean,
(27:36):
I don't think it would have added anything really. But
this has been around for centuries, for centuries and centuries,
you know, back from ancient Rome to the Oracles. You know,
it's always been around. People are always wanting and hoping,
(27:57):
and I imagine it will be around for centuries to come.
I just don't know of any other well designed research
studies with a control group that I have seen that
would provide any anything solid.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
It's a shame there hasn't been more research into using
psychics to help law enforcement, or if they already are
working together, that law enforcement isn't more open about it.
Surely finding missing people is the priority, right rather than
keeping up appearances. I couldn't help thinking back to what
(28:38):
Kelly Snyder said about Riverside's reluctance to use his information
to find Dea. What if the cops had searched Lake
Hemis sooner like Kelly was urging them to. What if
they'd search that strange Arizona coordinate. There wasn't too far
from Harper's route to New Mexico. By the way, I
(28:59):
found DEA's birth time, and I've passed it on to
Dave Campbell, so you can look into a case again
with this new detail. Maybe I believe in it all,
Maybe I don't, but I'm going to be very intrigued
to see what he comes up with. Where's Dear Is
(29:46):
written and hosted by me Lucy Sheriff. Our producer is
Daphne Chen, editing by Karen Shakerji, fact checking by Lauren Vespoli.
Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Original score by Echo
Shaw's mastering by Jacob Gorsky. Where's is a co production
(30:10):
of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. You can listen to all
of Where's Dea right now ad free by becoming a
Pushkin Plus subscriber. Find Pushkin Plus on the Apple show
(30:31):
page for Where's Dea, or at pushkin dot fm slash
plus
Host
Lucy Sherriff
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