June 23, 2025 • 19 mins
In this episode CEO of Patties Food Group Paul Hitchcock shares his 'rule of three' to help weed out non-performers. Plus, how moving quickly when restructuring a business can save heartache as well as money, and lessons from a product launch that didn't work.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Australian Financial Review. If I hear any of our
managers talking about the same individual three times, it's now
the manager who's the problem, and I'll pull them out.
Hang on, you've talked about this person, this is the
third time. What are you doing about it? Because clearly
(00:26):
there's a problem and you've now said up three top. Thanks,
you are now the problem manager.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hi. I'm Sally Padden, the editor of Boss from the
Australian Financial Review, and welcome to fifteen Minutes with the Boss,
a podcast about success and failure and everything in between.
And along the way we're having to get some really
great advice from our leaders. My guest today is Paul Hitchcock,
(00:59):
the chief executive of Patty's Food Group. Hi, Paul, how
are you? Hi? Sally, thank you so much for coming in. Paul,
as I said, you're the chief executive of Patty's Food Group,
which makes four and twenty Pies, Nanas and Herbert Adams Pies,
as well as Legos and Lean Cuisine, among lots of
(01:20):
other brands. You have annual sales of eight hundred and
fifty million dollars and apparently you sold six hundred million
pies sausage rolls and party pies. In the past twelve months,
you have eighteen hundred employees. And my fun fact is
that at an AFL Grand Final at the MCG, you
(01:40):
can expect to sell thirty thousand pies. So actually, just
on that, are you a party pie guy or a
sausage role guy?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I'm both both. I love them both. But we have
party pies at work in our reception area and Marry,
our receptionist fills the pie warmer every morning with little
party pie. So tween meetings, I often sneak a party
pie in the morning or the afternoon and at lunchtime.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Ah do So how many would you have a day?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Ah? Look, I try not to have more than three.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I would find that really really hard. If I were
working in office where they were piping hot I assume
roles on tap.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yes, it's all for quality control, of course, Sally.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Of course, of course it is. I can imagine. Now
we don't have much time. Let's start the clock. My
first question is about your morning routine. What time do
you get at what happens?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Well, it varies on the day. So I live in
Sydney but work in Melbourne, so I travel every week.
We have seven factories, so I'm quite often traveling there.
So if i'm if I'm around home or in the
hotel in Melbourne at six am, I get up. I'm
normally at the office between seven seven thirty. Sometimes I
walk in the mornings, sometimes I exercise in the evening.
And the weekends I'm always up early for a hike
(02:51):
or a long walk or a bike ride, so I
like to keep active.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Okay, my next question is about a pivotal moment in
your career. Was there a project that you worked on
or a promotion that you were given that somehow changed
the whole trajectory of what you were doing.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Early two thousands, I was working for Goodminfielder and I
was the sales director of the commercial division. And Goodmanfielder
is at that stage it was a publicly listed food company.
Sales were over two billion back then and we're on
the stock market. We were taken over by a New
Zealand billionaire, Graham Hart. At the time. It was a
two billion dollar takeover and I had a couple of
(03:29):
coffees with him as part of his DD and when
he took over the business and one Friday afternoon he
called me and said, Paul, we're restructuring the company. I'd
like you to run the commercial division and take on
all the factories. Are you up for that? And I
said yes, let me tell you the rest. So your
boss has just left the building, his direct reports, your peers.
If you want any of them, there's seven of them.
(03:50):
If you want any of them, please tell me Monday.
Think about your structure over the weekend, take me throughout
Monday morning, and we'll announce the organization Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right, And you had no idea that your boss had
left the building or was about to leave the building.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I was in a meeting with them not thirty minutes before,
and he gave me a wave. I was in another man.
He gave us a wave as he walked out the door,
and I wondered why he was waving. He just had
the call. So then on the Monday, I took ran
through my structure of my division. And bear in mind
I had never run factories before, but I knew someone
that had so, and I was picking my team. He
(04:24):
agreed with my structure, my people, not that he knew them,
had faith in me and the team, and we restructured
this two and a half billion dollar business over the weekend,
myself and two of the other divisional who became divisional
mds as well.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And what did you learn from that process about structuring
teams and how to take on a much bigger role
at the drop of a hat.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Well, first thing I learned was when you were having
a casual coffee with someone, don't assume it's a casual coffee.
Clearly it was a job interview. I just was honest
about what I thought. He asked me, did we have
too many meetings? Was our new development process fast enough?
There are whole lot of things, and I just answered
them honestly. I didn't try and overthink it and say
are these politically correct? Is this what he wanted to hear?
(05:09):
I just said what I thought. You know. Fortunately, that
helped me get the job. So that's the first thing
and the other thing I learned. If you're going to
make change, make it quickly. We restructured, We didn't mess around.
We changed people very very quickly, and we got the
business focused on our customers and growing the business without
an axe hanging over people's head. Was quite often when
(05:30):
business is announced, a corporate restructure, a strategy review, and
we'll all will be a real revealed in three months.
That is the worst thing you can do to people.
It's unkind to the individuals, and it also they take
their focus off the business and they start focusing on
themselves because everybody's got bills to pay, mortgages, family. So
(05:51):
it's totally understandable if you've got to make change, do
it quick.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And how did that whole process really change your career?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, he gave me the opportunity to run a business.
Up until that, I was working for or I'd work
for a number of corporates and I perhaps didn't fit
the mold. I was probably a little rough around the edges.
I was a bit disappointed in the business businesses I
worked for that I hadn't been given the chance to
be a general manager. And I think he saw something
gave me the opportunity. I grasped it with both hands.
(06:17):
From that, I became a public company CEO after that,
and I've been in general management probably for the last
twenty five years. So he gave me a chance when
a lot of the corporates wouldn't, and I probably wasn't ready.
I was surprised as hell that he called me, but
I just took the opportunity with both hands and never
looked back.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Fantastic. Okay, well, my next question is, what's the best
piece of career advice you've ever been given?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Make the tough people calls. People don't make the tough
people calls. There may be people who are underperforming, people
that are just in the wrong job. The business may
have outgrown them, and loyalty sometimes and procrastination and avoiding
conflict is what puts a lot of people off. And
I've been of that too. When I took on my
(07:02):
first public company, roles company called Corporate Express, I didn't
know anything about the industry. It was all new to me.
I had my own board, I was appointed by a
great chairman, and I came into the business and I
looked at my team and I figured that they must
be good because they'd been in the business a long time,
and two of them in particular, who were internal candidates
for the job, and I was an external who I thought, well,
(07:25):
these guys will really support me. And I took a
year and I let them go, and it was probably
the best thing for everybody. We just mutually agreed, and
I took too long.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So I think a lot of people would say that
the reason that they don't want to make those tough
people decisions is because it's hard to have that conversation.
There is loyalty and there are all other emotions wrapped
up in that. How do you go about having the conversation.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think you've got to back yourself and nothing's black
and white. When I joined Patties within the first two days,
by the end of the second day, I knew who
was in, who was out, and who was in the
wrong job, and direct reports of that. Five of them
I let go within the first three months, and the
other two I put into other jobs. And I have
a rule in our business. If I hear any of
(08:11):
our managers talking about the same individual three times, it's
now the manager who's the problem, and I'll call them out.
Hang on, you've talked about this person. This is the
third time. What are you doing about it? You are
now the problem? Manager?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Why three?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Well? The first time, someone might say to me, and
we do it when we're doing talent reviews, it's oh, well, look,
I'm just not sure you know. But look it's been
tough and there've been some issues in their team. So
I'll give them a benefit of the doubt. The second
time might be a little time later, talk about Okay,
I look, well I'm working on them. They still haven't
(08:47):
quite got there, but gee, they've improved a little bit.
The third time, I'm going, okay, hello, come on, this
is enough time. Either you're the problem or they're the problem. Right.
If they're the problem, do something about it. Or if
you're not going to do something about it, and you're
the problem and stop winging.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I love that rule. That's really good.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
You know. In our business, we give feedback. We take feedback,
people give me feedback. We try and encourage everybody to listen.
So I tend to not tell my team to hire
or fire someone. And nine to nine percent of the time,
whoever my direct reports preferred candidates to join our business,
I will sign off on.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So terminating people is a hard conversation. Do you have
tips for that? Is there a certain way that you
structure that conversation when someone is underperforming and they have.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
To go normally, if you're doing it fairly, you've had
conversations and then you give them the opportunity so when
you meet them the second time, it's not a complete surprise.
You're not just saying, oh, hang on, here's the door,
see you later, and they go, what's this all about?
But being honest with yourself, can they make it? And
if I think the person can get there, I will
really work my butt off to try and make them successful.
(09:54):
But I make the call early, and if I don't
think they can do it, that's it. Better to make
the call early and move on.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, Paul. On that note, we're going to take a
short break, but don't go away. We're going to come
back and open the Chatterbox.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Thanks looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Sally, Welcome back to fifteen Men's with the Boss. I'm
here with Paul Hitchcock, the chief executive of Patty's Food Group. Now, Paul,
this is our section called the Chatterbox. In front of
(10:34):
you is this lovely shiny brown box inside which are
about fifteen questions. I'm going to ask you to pick
out some and we'll get going with some more Q
and a. Okay, in your experience, what is the best
way to get a promotion, Like, if you're trying to
move up the company ladder, what's the best way to
do that? To get noticed?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Just work hard, don't put on a show. Just do
the best you can. Don't try and brown nose think
you're talking to the right people. Just put your head down,
work hard. You will get noticed. And I look for
people that have got authentic right attitude, work hard, the
work ethics are big. It's something I look for.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Actually, and just on that. Do you also look for
people who will challenge you or change challenge your ideas?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Absolutely? I mean the last thing I want is a
whole bunch of yes people in my company. I want
people with diversity of thought, diversity of culture. I want
people to be challenging us as a business and ask
those questions and not be afraid to stand alone when
there's groups thing going on and have a view to
the contrary. I really like that. I encourage it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I love that. Have another fish in the box, dank you.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I'd like to get a peak before you get that.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I'm afraid that's illegal in this game. That's illegal. When
was the last time you gave up doing something or
had to quit doing something because it wasn't working.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think with our manufacturing, what I've learned with our business,
we're really good at making things. And there's a couple
of times where we've gone offshore to import products. Customers
were telling us they wanted these premium suites, these cakes.
So we found somewhere in Italy that would make these cakes.
And I went and tasted all these cakes with my
marketing and head of sales, and they fed us and
(12:22):
we love these work in Australia. So we came up
with a brand, brand, new brand. We brought container loads
of these things across Dead Flop. We lost a lot
of money. And you know, I just learned, first of all,
when it comes to stakeholders, whether it's your customers or others,
where it's not their money, they't say anything because it's
(12:45):
not their money.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So they're just answering a survey or through in a
focus group. They'll say what they like, but they may
not actually put their money where they're out face.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
That's right, if there's nothing at risk for them, they'll
give us our opinion. New brands is really really hard
bringing products in from the other side of the word,
and container loads in a category that we weren't that
familiar with was a problem. And so you know, in
the end of the day, we just came back to know,
let's make the products ourselves. Shorter supply chains and focus
(13:12):
on our brands and really try and grow those brands,
because starting a new brand is really, really tough, and
were better to put our energy and focusing on the
core than it is to go and do the shiny
new thing. And whilst these cakes tasted great, we burned
a lot of cash.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And how long did it take you before you realize
that this was not going to work and you quit
the project?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
About nine months? I think we knew after a month
and we put the patient on life support. We tried everything,
we promoted, we did everything, and in the end it
was like, no, we just have to make the call, cut, delete,
let's move on.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So if that ever happened again, you would make the
call pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I think the next time, and we've done a few
things like this is just just try and manage the
resk and think about, well, what if this doesn't work.
We were so convinced of eating these products, all right,
so three men eating cakes? Oh gee, what could go
wrong there? We thought that Australians would would eat these products,
and they were good tasting products, but for the price,
and we didn't get the best positioning in store. Perhaps
(14:08):
our execution what it wasn't as good as it should be.
But we should have thought, well, what if this goes right?
What if the consumers have we got the RST price point?
Should we just do a small trial. Should we just
pick a small retail bring some of the products into
a market trial. Yes, that's what we should have done. No,
we wanted to do a big bang national launch.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So do you also think that if you had more
diversity in that team, you might have worked at that sooner.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
We were three like minded people, and we'll quite often
do that, and our teams will say, we'll want one
person to have a contrary view because group think takes over.
And probably what we needed was someone to say, yeah,
but what if it doesn't work, what if the price
is too high, what if the customers don't give it
the best location, what if oussies don't like it? What if?
What if? And so now in our meetings, that's why
(14:50):
we'll always have someone who will take a country view.
What could go wrong here? And it challenges us? And
if we can answer all the questions or at least
have a plan to manage it, then we'll do it.
Everything's going to work, you know when you're trying new things.
You've got to accept this. Some failures and that's okay.
We want failures because you'll find the good ones. But
be considered planned and think about what could go wrong
(15:10):
and have plans for that.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Very good advice. I love that lesson. Okay, have a
fish in the box. Thank you. What's the piece of
advice that you would give your younger self?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Have more confidence?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So at one point did you lack a lot of confidence? Yes,
until about what age? Probably about forty, Okay, that's quite
a while.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah, I probably didn't think I was good enough.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
So that's interesting. So what at around the age of
forty made that switch for you where you went from
being not confident to being confident that you could do
good job.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I think it was getting the opportunity to at Goodman
Fielder with Graham Heart. I'm going hang on, he's clearly
seen something here, you know, somebody giving me a break.
And when I came and I've sort of continued to grow,
and when I came into Patties, I absolutely had no
doubt what I was going to do with that company.
I had no doubt what I was going to do
with the team. I had no doubt that we could
be a billion dollar company. But if you'd ask me
(16:04):
in my early days, it's like, oh gee, I'm not sure.
Leads to procrastination. You start doubting yourself on decisions. You
know where I grew up. I grew up in New Zealand,
in a very poor part of town. My father was
a motor mechanic, you know, and he's a big drinker.
Probably most of the time as I knew my father,
he'd been drinking. My mother was worked in a shoe factory.
(16:25):
I sort of grew up in that environment. You sort
of don't know what's possible. And as you as you mature,
as you move in other circles, you see, oh wow,
I can do this, and so I think it's just
sort of evolves over time. I don't think there was
one particular moment.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
As you say you had your time over again, you
would have tried to feel more confident from an earlier age.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yes, back myself.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Thank you, Paul. On that note, you have passed with
fine colors. The chatterbox section, and I've now got one
final question, which is, if you weren't the chief executive
of Patty's Food Group, what would you be doing I
would be on boards. Would you do listed boards or
(17:07):
unlisted both.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
If I do unlisted boards, it'll be a businesses that
I can put some money into because I do want
to make a difference. I would be spending some time
coaching CEOs. I've learned a bit over the years and
I think that I could help others. I'd probably do
a bit of coaching of sports teams sports ago I
did coaching of touch rugby at Roseville College. I love
(17:30):
that I love to learn guitar.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Okay, have you ever played the guitar?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Never? But I'm on TikTok quite like the pieces on
the around the guitar. So I'll probably wait until i've
the executive full time gigs finished, but I'd love to
learn the guitar.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And that is our time up. Paul, Thank you so
much for coming in and chatting to me today. I
really love your advice about making the tough people calls
early on and the rule of three when you're managing people,
if you've mentioned somebody three times in a negative light,
it's probably time to fix that problem, whoever the problem
might be. I like the way that in the meetings
(18:06):
you always make sure that you've now got a contrary view,
so there's always someone playing the devil's advocate. And I
wish you all the luck with your future TikTok and
guitar playing career. And on that note, thank you so
much following us to spend fifteen minutes with the Boss.
It's been an absolute delight.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Thank you, Sally, Thank you very much, and.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you like the
podcast and you want to hear more, consider sharing the
podcast or writing a review, as it helps us to
reach more people and follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
At The Financial Review, we investigate the big stories about markets,
business and power. For more, go to AFI dot com
(18:50):
and you can subscribe to The Financial Review the daily
habit of successful people at AFI dot com slash subscribe.
This podcast was hosted by me Ally Patton, produced and
edited by Mandy Coolan. Head of audio is Alex ga
and our executive producer is Fiona Bffini.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
The Australian Financial Review
The Australian Financial Review. If I hear any of our
managers talking about the same individual three times, it's now
the manager who's the problem, and I'll pull them out.
Hang on, you've talked about this person, this is the
third time. What are you doing about it? Because clearly
(00:26):
there's a problem and you've now said up three top. Thanks,
you are now the problem manager.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hi. I'm Sally Padden, the editor of Boss from the
Australian Financial Review, and welcome to fifteen Minutes with the Boss,
a podcast about success and failure and everything in between.
And along the way we're having to get some really
great advice from our leaders. My guest today is Paul Hitchcock,
(00:59):
the chief executive of Patty's Food Group. Hi, Paul, how
are you? Hi? Sally, thank you so much for coming in. Paul,
as I said, you're the chief executive of Patty's Food Group,
which makes four and twenty Pies, Nanas and Herbert Adams Pies,
as well as Legos and Lean Cuisine, among lots of
(01:20):
other brands. You have annual sales of eight hundred and
fifty million dollars and apparently you sold six hundred million
pies sausage rolls and party pies. In the past twelve months,
you have eighteen hundred employees. And my fun fact is
that at an AFL Grand Final at the MCG, you
(01:40):
can expect to sell thirty thousand pies. So actually, just
on that, are you a party pie guy or a
sausage role guy?
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I'm both both. I love them both. But we have
party pies at work in our reception area and Marry,
our receptionist fills the pie warmer every morning with little
party pie. So tween meetings, I often sneak a party
pie in the morning or the afternoon and at lunchtime.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Ah do So how many would you have a day?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Ah? Look, I try not to have more than three.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I would find that really really hard. If I were
working in office where they were piping hot I assume
roles on tap.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yes, it's all for quality control, of course, Sally.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Of course, of course it is. I can imagine. Now
we don't have much time. Let's start the clock. My
first question is about your morning routine. What time do
you get at what happens?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Well, it varies on the day. So I live in
Sydney but work in Melbourne, so I travel every week.
We have seven factories, so I'm quite often traveling there.
So if i'm if I'm around home or in the
hotel in Melbourne at six am, I get up. I'm
normally at the office between seven seven thirty. Sometimes I
walk in the mornings, sometimes I exercise in the evening.
And the weekends I'm always up early for a hike
(02:51):
or a long walk or a bike ride, so I
like to keep active.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Okay, my next question is about a pivotal moment in
your career. Was there a project that you worked on
or a promotion that you were given that somehow changed
the whole trajectory of what you were doing.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Early two thousands, I was working for Goodminfielder and I
was the sales director of the commercial division. And Goodmanfielder
is at that stage it was a publicly listed food company.
Sales were over two billion back then and we're on
the stock market. We were taken over by a New
Zealand billionaire, Graham Hart. At the time. It was a
two billion dollar takeover and I had a couple of
(03:29):
coffees with him as part of his DD and when
he took over the business and one Friday afternoon he
called me and said, Paul, we're restructuring the company. I'd
like you to run the commercial division and take on
all the factories. Are you up for that? And I
said yes, let me tell you the rest. So your
boss has just left the building, his direct reports, your peers.
If you want any of them, there's seven of them.
(03:50):
If you want any of them, please tell me Monday.
Think about your structure over the weekend, take me throughout
Monday morning, and we'll announce the organization Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right, And you had no idea that your boss had
left the building or was about to leave the building.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I was in a meeting with them not thirty minutes before,
and he gave me a wave. I was in another man.
He gave us a wave as he walked out the door,
and I wondered why he was waving. He just had
the call. So then on the Monday, I took ran
through my structure of my division. And bear in mind
I had never run factories before, but I knew someone
that had so, and I was picking my team. He
(04:24):
agreed with my structure, my people, not that he knew them,
had faith in me and the team, and we restructured
this two and a half billion dollar business over the weekend,
myself and two of the other divisional who became divisional
mds as well.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And what did you learn from that process about structuring
teams and how to take on a much bigger role
at the drop of a hat.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Well, first thing I learned was when you were having
a casual coffee with someone, don't assume it's a casual coffee.
Clearly it was a job interview. I just was honest
about what I thought. He asked me, did we have
too many meetings? Was our new development process fast enough?
There are whole lot of things, and I just answered
them honestly. I didn't try and overthink it and say
are these politically correct? Is this what he wanted to hear?
(05:09):
I just said what I thought. You know. Fortunately, that
helped me get the job. So that's the first thing
and the other thing I learned. If you're going to
make change, make it quickly. We restructured, We didn't mess around.
We changed people very very quickly, and we got the
business focused on our customers and growing the business without
an axe hanging over people's head. Was quite often when
(05:30):
business is announced, a corporate restructure, a strategy review, and
we'll all will be a real revealed in three months.
That is the worst thing you can do to people.
It's unkind to the individuals, and it also they take
their focus off the business and they start focusing on
themselves because everybody's got bills to pay, mortgages, family. So
(05:51):
it's totally understandable if you've got to make change, do
it quick.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And how did that whole process really change your career?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, he gave me the opportunity to run a business.
Up until that, I was working for or I'd work
for a number of corporates and I perhaps didn't fit
the mold. I was probably a little rough around the edges.
I was a bit disappointed in the business businesses I
worked for that I hadn't been given the chance to
be a general manager. And I think he saw something
gave me the opportunity. I grasped it with both hands.
(06:17):
From that, I became a public company CEO after that,
and I've been in general management probably for the last
twenty five years. So he gave me a chance when
a lot of the corporates wouldn't, and I probably wasn't ready.
I was surprised as hell that he called me, but
I just took the opportunity with both hands and never
looked back.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Fantastic. Okay, well, my next question is, what's the best
piece of career advice you've ever been given?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Make the tough people calls. People don't make the tough
people calls. There may be people who are underperforming, people
that are just in the wrong job. The business may
have outgrown them, and loyalty sometimes and procrastination and avoiding
conflict is what puts a lot of people off. And
I've been of that too. When I took on my
(07:02):
first public company, roles company called Corporate Express, I didn't
know anything about the industry. It was all new to me.
I had my own board, I was appointed by a
great chairman, and I came into the business and I
looked at my team and I figured that they must
be good because they'd been in the business a long time,
and two of them in particular, who were internal candidates
for the job, and I was an external who I thought, well,
(07:25):
these guys will really support me. And I took a
year and I let them go, and it was probably
the best thing for everybody. We just mutually agreed, and
I took too long.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
So I think a lot of people would say that
the reason that they don't want to make those tough
people decisions is because it's hard to have that conversation.
There is loyalty and there are all other emotions wrapped
up in that. How do you go about having the conversation.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I think you've got to back yourself and nothing's black
and white. When I joined Patties within the first two days,
by the end of the second day, I knew who
was in, who was out, and who was in the
wrong job, and direct reports of that. Five of them
I let go within the first three months, and the
other two I put into other jobs. And I have
a rule in our business. If I hear any of
(08:11):
our managers talking about the same individual three times, it's
now the manager who's the problem, and I'll call them out.
Hang on, you've talked about this person. This is the
third time. What are you doing about it? You are
now the problem? Manager?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Why three?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Well? The first time, someone might say to me, and
we do it when we're doing talent reviews, it's oh, well, look,
I'm just not sure you know. But look it's been
tough and there've been some issues in their team. So
I'll give them a benefit of the doubt. The second
time might be a little time later, talk about Okay,
I look, well I'm working on them. They still haven't
(08:47):
quite got there, but gee, they've improved a little bit.
The third time, I'm going, okay, hello, come on, this
is enough time. Either you're the problem or they're the problem. Right.
If they're the problem, do something about it. Or if
you're not going to do something about it, and you're
the problem and stop winging.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I love that rule. That's really good.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
You know. In our business, we give feedback. We take feedback,
people give me feedback. We try and encourage everybody to listen.
So I tend to not tell my team to hire
or fire someone. And nine to nine percent of the time,
whoever my direct reports preferred candidates to join our business,
I will sign off on.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So terminating people is a hard conversation. Do you have
tips for that? Is there a certain way that you
structure that conversation when someone is underperforming and they have.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
To go normally, if you're doing it fairly, you've had
conversations and then you give them the opportunity so when
you meet them the second time, it's not a complete surprise.
You're not just saying, oh, hang on, here's the door,
see you later, and they go, what's this all about?
But being honest with yourself, can they make it? And
if I think the person can get there, I will
really work my butt off to try and make them successful.
(09:54):
But I make the call early, and if I don't
think they can do it, that's it. Better to make
the call early and move on.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Okay, Paul. On that note, we're going to take a
short break, but don't go away. We're going to come
back and open the Chatterbox.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Thanks looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Sally, Welcome back to fifteen Men's with the Boss. I'm
here with Paul Hitchcock, the chief executive of Patty's Food Group. Now, Paul,
this is our section called the Chatterbox. In front of
(10:34):
you is this lovely shiny brown box inside which are
about fifteen questions. I'm going to ask you to pick
out some and we'll get going with some more Q
and a. Okay, in your experience, what is the best
way to get a promotion, Like, if you're trying to
move up the company ladder, what's the best way to
do that? To get noticed?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Just work hard, don't put on a show. Just do
the best you can. Don't try and brown nose think
you're talking to the right people. Just put your head down,
work hard. You will get noticed. And I look for
people that have got authentic right attitude, work hard, the
work ethics are big. It's something I look for.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Actually, and just on that. Do you also look for
people who will challenge you or change challenge your ideas?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Absolutely? I mean the last thing I want is a
whole bunch of yes people in my company. I want
people with diversity of thought, diversity of culture. I want
people to be challenging us as a business and ask
those questions and not be afraid to stand alone when
there's groups thing going on and have a view to
the contrary. I really like that. I encourage it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I love that. Have another fish in the box, dank you.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I'd like to get a peak before you get that.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I'm afraid that's illegal in this game. That's illegal. When
was the last time you gave up doing something or
had to quit doing something because it wasn't working.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I think with our manufacturing, what I've learned with our business,
we're really good at making things. And there's a couple
of times where we've gone offshore to import products. Customers
were telling us they wanted these premium suites, these cakes.
So we found somewhere in Italy that would make these cakes.
And I went and tasted all these cakes with my
marketing and head of sales, and they fed us and
(12:22):
we love these work in Australia. So we came up
with a brand, brand, new brand. We brought container loads
of these things across Dead Flop. We lost a lot
of money. And you know, I just learned, first of all,
when it comes to stakeholders, whether it's your customers or others,
where it's not their money, they't say anything because it's
(12:45):
not their money.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So they're just answering a survey or through in a
focus group. They'll say what they like, but they may
not actually put their money where they're out face.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
That's right, if there's nothing at risk for them, they'll
give us our opinion. New brands is really really hard
bringing products in from the other side of the word,
and container loads in a category that we weren't that
familiar with was a problem. And so you know, in
the end of the day, we just came back to know,
let's make the products ourselves. Shorter supply chains and focus
(13:12):
on our brands and really try and grow those brands,
because starting a new brand is really, really tough, and
were better to put our energy and focusing on the
core than it is to go and do the shiny
new thing. And whilst these cakes tasted great, we burned
a lot of cash.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
And how long did it take you before you realize
that this was not going to work and you quit
the project?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
About nine months? I think we knew after a month
and we put the patient on life support. We tried everything,
we promoted, we did everything, and in the end it
was like, no, we just have to make the call, cut, delete,
let's move on.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So if that ever happened again, you would make the
call pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I think the next time, and we've done a few
things like this is just just try and manage the
resk and think about, well, what if this doesn't work.
We were so convinced of eating these products, all right,
so three men eating cakes? Oh gee, what could go
wrong there? We thought that Australians would would eat these products,
and they were good tasting products, but for the price,
and we didn't get the best positioning in store. Perhaps
(14:08):
our execution what it wasn't as good as it should be.
But we should have thought, well, what if this goes right?
What if the consumers have we got the RST price point?
Should we just do a small trial. Should we just
pick a small retail bring some of the products into
a market trial. Yes, that's what we should have done. No,
we wanted to do a big bang national launch.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
So do you also think that if you had more
diversity in that team, you might have worked at that sooner.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
We were three like minded people, and we'll quite often
do that, and our teams will say, we'll want one
person to have a contrary view because group think takes over.
And probably what we needed was someone to say, yeah,
but what if it doesn't work, what if the price
is too high, what if the customers don't give it
the best location, what if oussies don't like it? What if?
What if? And so now in our meetings, that's why
(14:50):
we'll always have someone who will take a country view.
What could go wrong here? And it challenges us? And
if we can answer all the questions or at least
have a plan to manage it, then we'll do it.
Everything's going to work, you know when you're trying new things.
You've got to accept this. Some failures and that's okay.
We want failures because you'll find the good ones. But
be considered planned and think about what could go wrong
(15:10):
and have plans for that.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Very good advice. I love that lesson. Okay, have a
fish in the box. Thank you. What's the piece of
advice that you would give your younger self?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Have more confidence?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So at one point did you lack a lot of confidence? Yes,
until about what age? Probably about forty, Okay, that's quite
a while.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah, I probably didn't think I was good enough.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
So that's interesting. So what at around the age of
forty made that switch for you where you went from
being not confident to being confident that you could do
good job.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
I think it was getting the opportunity to at Goodman
Fielder with Graham Heart. I'm going hang on, he's clearly
seen something here, you know, somebody giving me a break.
And when I came and I've sort of continued to grow,
and when I came into Patties, I absolutely had no
doubt what I was going to do with that company.
I had no doubt what I was going to do
with the team. I had no doubt that we could
be a billion dollar company. But if you'd ask me
(16:04):
in my early days, it's like, oh gee, I'm not sure.
Leads to procrastination. You start doubting yourself on decisions. You
know where I grew up. I grew up in New Zealand,
in a very poor part of town. My father was
a motor mechanic, you know, and he's a big drinker.
Probably most of the time as I knew my father,
he'd been drinking. My mother was worked in a shoe factory.
(16:25):
I sort of grew up in that environment. You sort
of don't know what's possible. And as you as you mature,
as you move in other circles, you see, oh wow,
I can do this, and so I think it's just
sort of evolves over time. I don't think there was
one particular moment.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
As you say you had your time over again, you
would have tried to feel more confident from an earlier age.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yes, back myself.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Thank you, Paul. On that note, you have passed with
fine colors. The chatterbox section, and I've now got one
final question, which is, if you weren't the chief executive
of Patty's Food Group, what would you be doing I
would be on boards. Would you do listed boards or
(17:07):
unlisted both.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
If I do unlisted boards, it'll be a businesses that
I can put some money into because I do want
to make a difference. I would be spending some time
coaching CEOs. I've learned a bit over the years and
I think that I could help others. I'd probably do
a bit of coaching of sports teams sports ago I
did coaching of touch rugby at Roseville College. I love
(17:30):
that I love to learn guitar.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Okay, have you ever played the guitar?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Never? But I'm on TikTok quite like the pieces on
the around the guitar. So I'll probably wait until i've
the executive full time gigs finished, but I'd love to
learn the guitar.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And that is our time up. Paul, Thank you so
much for coming in and chatting to me today. I
really love your advice about making the tough people calls
early on and the rule of three when you're managing people,
if you've mentioned somebody three times in a negative light,
it's probably time to fix that problem, whoever the problem
might be. I like the way that in the meetings
(18:06):
you always make sure that you've now got a contrary view,
so there's always someone playing the devil's advocate. And I
wish you all the luck with your future TikTok and
guitar playing career. And on that note, thank you so
much following us to spend fifteen minutes with the Boss.
It's been an absolute delight.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Thank you, Sally, Thank you very much, and.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Thank you to everyone for listening. If you like the
podcast and you want to hear more, consider sharing the
podcast or writing a review, as it helps us to
reach more people and follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
At The Financial Review, we investigate the big stories about markets,
business and power. For more, go to AFI dot com
(18:50):
and you can subscribe to The Financial Review the daily
habit of successful people at AFI dot com slash subscribe.
This podcast was hosted by me Ally Patton, produced and
edited by Mandy Coolan. Head of audio is Alex ga
and our executive producer is Fiona Bffini.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
The Australian Financial Review
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