March 21, 2025 • 51 mins
Welcome to a special episode from Mamamia's podcast for Gen X women, MID.
This episode is all about all. Specifically, it’s about finding it in your MID years. Maybe for the second, fourth, first time.
This is a story about Dr Amantha Imber, an organisational psychologist who got divorced a few years ago. When Amantha knew she wanted to re-partner, she went about it with a typical approach to efficiency - going on more than 50 first dates in her first stint of online dating.
Those dates had strict rules and boundaries, time limits and schedules and… they didn’t work. So then, Amantha drew up a brief and cold-called a long list of people in her circle who might know the person she was looking for…. But… well, that didn’t work either.
You can learn more about Amantha and follow her work here.
You can purchase Amantha's book The Health Habit here.
You can also listen to her podcast, How I Work, here.
THE END BITS:
You can listen to our second ever episode was called the Mid Life Dating Pool Has Wee In it, and it was about Catherine Mahoney’s chaotic app-dating world and it was very very funny here.
You can listen to our episode with Divorce & Separation coach, Nikki Parkinson, here.
Share your feedback! Send us a voice message or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au
Follow us on Instagram @MidbyMamamia or sign up to the MID newsletter, dropping weekly here.
CREDITS:
Host: Holly Wainwright
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Grace Rouvray
Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, four or five six listeners. My name is Naima Brown,
and I'm the executive producer of Mid with Holly Wainwright,
Mamma MIA's flagship podcast for our gen X listeners, and
we are bringing you a special episode today, four or
five six ers, because it's about finding love in your
mid years. This is a conversation with doctor Amantha Imber.
(00:20):
She's an organizational psychologist who got divorced a few years ago.
When she knew she was ready to repartner, she went
about it with a typical approach to efficiency, which meant
that she went on more than fifty first dates in
her first stint of online dating. How did this work
out for her? Is it a happily ever after? You'll
have to listen. I hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm writing a brief.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
It's for my perfect second husband, actually my first husband,
because my current one, Brent, is not really my husband,
but my boyfriend. He's been my boyfriend for twenty years
this year. And my boyfriend and I have.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Two children, a more brggage, a dog.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Two decades of shared history and stories and travels and
shared friendships and families and illnesses and deaths and miscarriages
and weddings and funerals and money worries and work stress
and fights and diagnoses and at least five different homes
and wordle and sundowners and a great.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Deal of laughter.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
For now, at least, we are stuck too, and with
each other. But if I, like my guest today, found
myself suddenly single again, would I, like my guest today,
get busy with a blank page, fill in and Excel spreadsheet,
devoid of history and the messiness of familiarity, and ask
myself what.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Do I want next?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And if I did, would the universe laugh at me
the way it did twenty years ago, when I was
convinced what I wanted was not what was right in
front of me, but a whole list.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Of unchecked boxes.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I'd dated musicians and artists and cliff scaling, risk takers,
addicts and travel as an earnest world changes. I had
the words life less ordinary taped on a corkboard somewhere,
and I took those words to mean chaos and drama
and constant movement manifestos.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That's not what I got.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
If the universe knew anything, it was that I'd had
my fill of all that. But back to the blank
sheet of my imagination. If I was single, with all
my mid wisdom under my arm, like my guest today,
would I devise a strategy, write up some rules, enforce
the guardrails, start a stop watch and email chain, a
(02:35):
crowdsourcing plan. I doubt it. I'm not a strategist. I'm
a panser, not a plotter. But if we are here
and the lines must be filled in, I would learn
to click on my Excel cells and I would drag
and drop and I would write kind, funny, kind, tall, kind, smart, kind, warm, kind, optimistic, kind, creative, kind, calm, kind, hot,
(03:07):
and probably because this was my brief and only my brief,
I would feed it into a hungry AI assistant and
it would split out a photo of print, and that
would be really, really annoying and also perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Hello, My name is Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife,
mid family, mid long relationship. Today's episode is all about love. Specifically,
it's about finding it in your mid years, maybe for
the second time, maybe for the fourth, maybe for the first.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
We've touched on this.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Before here and mid Our second ever episode was called
the midlife Dating Pool?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Has we in It?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And it was about Katherine Mahoney's chaotic app dating world,
and it was very, very funny, and you all told
me that you wanted more of those stories. And so
today something very different about dating after a divorce, A
story about a woman who did it in the most
methodical way. I can imagine a woman who knew exactly
what she wanted, and her particular list of needs and
(04:15):
wants weren't necessarily the same as her friends, and the
way she was going to find the partner that she
knew she wanted was probably not going to be the
same either. Doctor Amantha Imber is one of the most efficient, productive,
and interesting people I know. She is an organizational psychologist,
and organizational psychologists are amazing, and she is the creator
(04:37):
of the innovation business Inventium, and she hosts the podcast
How I Work. And she is the author of a
few books and the mother to one child. And she
also got divorced a few years ago. Organizational psychologists don't
necessarily date the same way chaotic writers do. It seems
Amantha took an efficient approach when she decided she wanted
(04:59):
a new She decided to balance quantity and quality on
the dating apps, and she went on fifty one first
dates in her first stint of online dating. Those dates
had strict rules and boundaries, time limits and schedules, and
they didn't work. So then Amantha drew up a brief
and cold called a whole lot of people in her
(05:19):
circle who might know the person she was looking for.
But well, that didn't work either, So what did I'm
going to let her tell you that, Amantha, You're getting married.
Massive congratulations, Thanks Holly, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I need to.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Let the mids in on the fact that I have
interviewed you before a couple of times. Actually, but the
last time we had a proper chat I looked today,
it was actually eight years ago.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Oh my gosh. And that was in Melbourne, yep, it was.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
And it was in Melbourne, and we were talking about
because you owned your own company, and you were talking
about this wild way of working where people could work
remotely from wherever they wanted to, and all these things
that at the time was so mind boggling that I
came back to work and said to everybody, you won't
believe it. Fast forward eight years and a lot has changed,
(06:13):
but also a lot has changed in your life since then.
Catch me up quickly, on what's been going on with
you in the last eight years.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Oh well, look, lots changed at work, and you know,
we've now been doing the four day week for the
last four years, and that's you know, that's a whole
other topic of conversation. But in my personal life, the
most significant thing that has happened is that I got
divorced in twenty nineteen and I am getting married in
(06:43):
March twenty twenty five, which is.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Very exciting and I need. That's what we're here to
talk about, because a lot of midlife women are divorced,
dating not dating, deciding if they want any part of
it ever again. And I would love to hear from you,
who's one of the smartest women I know for sure.
Was it soon after your divorce that you were like,
I know, I want to repartner, or did you go
(07:08):
through that period of time where you were like, never again.
I think I want to be single forever.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
I think before the separation and then the divorce happened,
I'd probably been grieving that relationship for a while, and
so I think, you know, in any relationship breakdown, I
think there's always one person that probably knows first. Sometimes
it is mutual but I think oftentimes, and stories I've
heard from my friends that have been separated is that
(07:35):
they will have grieved if they were the one making
the decision before the actual relationship ended. And so I
can't remember when exactly I knew that I definitely wanted
to repartner, but it would have only been a few
months after the breakdown of the relationship. So I definitely
(07:56):
knew that one of my values is that life is
best shared with someone and that's just me, and I
knew that I felt that way, and so I knew
that I wanted to take finding a new partner really seriously.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
And you did.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
I want to know, first of all, because I imagine,
correct me if I'm wrong that you went to the
apps first, and the apps didn't really exist probably the
last time you were single. Certainly the last time I
was single, there was like RSVP online, and I did
play with that a bit, but the whole dating app
revolution hadn't started.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
How did you find the apps first?
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Up? Oh wow, Yeah, it's totally different world because I
was with my ex husband for thirteen years, so there
was definitely no apps, but RSVP was definitely a thing.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
So when I decided I was ready to date again,
which was a few months after the separation. I think
I tried bumble first and it was Man, it's like it's.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
A whole other world. It is so strange.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
And I was very reliant on the apps because the
two main years where I was dating before I met
Neo my soon to be husband, was twenty twenty and
twenty twenty one, and I live in Melbourne and I
was locked down for a good part of those two years,
so APPS was really the main way to meet people.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I can imagine that that was also made it particularly difficult,
because I mean, apart from the fact that you're all
locked in your houses, but it was also the extra
level of how careful is everybody? Do we meet up
under what circumstances? It's not like you're going to bars
and things like that. It was very, very different.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
It certainly was, and I think they needed to be
quite a high level of trust to meet up with
someone face to face, which you know, oftentimes might have
been for like a walk around the park wearing a mask,
which I mean, what strange way to get to know
someone when you can't even read their facial expressions. But
I think what was good about online dating is that
(10:10):
for me, given like you know, part of my work
is around productivity and using time more wisely, is that
it's also quite efficient in that you can screen a
lot of people a lot more quickly than you can
if you're just reliant on meeting people in real life
or through connections in the workplace, or you know other
ways that people meet their partners.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So yeah, so the listeners understand you are a psychologist,
you are a productivity expert, you're an academic, You're big
on research, you're big on efficiency. So did you devise
a kind of system for how to weed out the
wheat from the chaff in the dating world?
Speaker 5 (10:47):
I did.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
What I realized pretty early on is that there is
a huge amount of quantity.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Time is finite.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
I run a business, and so therefore I work something
that resembles full time hours. I've got a daughter that
is with me fifty percent of the time. I've got friends,
I've got family, and so there's a part of time
that I carved out for dating, and I wanted to
use that time really well as opposed to almost have
the dating apps become like social media is for a
(11:15):
lot of people where you're just kind of mindlessly on
it without too much of an end goal. So I
tried to be very conscientious almost in how I use the.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Apps and siphon off time that you're like, I'm going
to look at it between this time and this time.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
I absolutely did.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Yeah, yeah, Like I didn't stick to that one hundred
percent of the time, but most of the time I
was quite conscious. It's like, okay, if I'm opening up
Bumble or Hinge, and they were my main go tos.
I tried Tinder, which just don't even get me started
on how that's the Yeah, there's no way.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So they're all quite different.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
They're very different. They're very different.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
I would have a bit of a process where you
connect with someone if you've both I guess liked each other.
And granted things might have changed in terms of the
features of these apps given where now you know, I
think three years that's all that. But then what was
really important for me is rather than just exchanging words,
and I mean, words are important, and we're both writers,
(12:17):
so I think you and I can appreciate the importance
of how someone uses words. But beyond that, I mean,
so like good grammar matters to me. Which might sound superficial,
but I think it's important.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I know it does to me too, and I worry
that it makes me a snob, but it's very much.
I think it's just if that's part of your value, like,
if that's part of what you do in your value system.
It's very hard if somebody just it doesn't use grammar
and doesn't and spells everything wrong and.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
And then I had to try to develop other heuristics,
like things that would just help me shortcut decision making,
because if you agonize over every single person that you're
looking at on an app, I mean it's a never
ending task. And so just for the sake of using
my time, well, I thought, I just need some quick
decision making rules that will help me decide yes I
(13:07):
want to know more or no swipe left, which I
think is the direction that you say no in man,
I think.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I've just repressed all this stuff, Holly.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
So I had a thing where I would move to
voice memo quite quickly, because I think you can tell
a lot about someone by their voice and how they
speak and just what energy they bring to a conversation.
And so I would move from text to voice fairly quickly,
and because I think that feature was just being introduced
(13:37):
at the time, it was a little bit unusual, and
so people would often reply by, oh, I didn't even
know that there was a voice recording feature in the app,
and we would exchange a few messages and I would
just get a bit of a feel for them. So
again I could go, Hm, does this feel like someone
that has the kind of energy that I want to
be with? And again, I mean, I'm sure that there
are lots of people in the world that are fantastic
(13:59):
that probably wouldn't say great in a voice memo, And yes,
I ruled them all.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
Out because of this little heuristic that I developed.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
But time is finite, and so I had to keep
coming back to that and going, look, I just I
need decision making criteriously and I'm not agonizing some things.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And then so you went on some dates from the
dating apps, but then you decided to come off the
apps for a while and try a different kind of
dating experiment. Did you not meet anybody good on the
dating apps that first time around?
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Look?
Speaker 4 (14:29):
I reckon all up, I calculate it. I probably went
on about fifty first dates. Wow, yeah, answer, that's loads
it's so many over two years, and some of those.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Did you have like rules about the dates too, like
how long they could be, what they were and that
kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Of course I didn't tell me.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I feel like, when you go on a date, a
lot of people feel an obligation just to stay for
a decent amount of time.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
But for me, I just thought, if we're both.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Sitting there and there's clearly no connection, just call it early.
And so I would typically I think my shortest dates
for about forty five minutes, because I felt like that
was long enough. I mean, often you can tell in
the first five minutes, but I tried not to hang
on to those first impressions as well. It's really easy
to form like very quick impressions when you start a date.
(15:22):
But I would try to just you know, force particularly
any judgmental parts.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Of my brain to just go no, no, remain open.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
But I sort of thought, look, after forty five minutes,
I'm just going to call it. And sometimes I was
honest and I just said I just don't feel like
there's a connection here. Other times I just made up
a lie, yeah, and said that I had to go
to you know, in my mind, protect the other person's feelings.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
So I did a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Some of those first dates turned into second dates and more,
but most did not, And that was fine, because you know,
it takes meeting a lot of people to find the
person that you feel the disconnection.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Were you ever like, oh, you know, this is exhausting.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
What's that movie?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Where is he? I?
Speaker 5 (16:06):
As Charlotte m Sacks in the city?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Where is he?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Did you?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Did you feel like that?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (16:13):
My gosh, Holly.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
After so many dates, I would be driving home and
I would call my best friend and I would say,
I've just been on another date and it didn't work,
And like, am my standards too high? Am I expecting
too much? Like what am I doing wrong? And just oh, man?
Like there were so many low points in that two years,
(16:37):
But I think somewhere inside of me I felt I
did feel truly optimistic, even though there were lots of
low points and lots of nights just feeling really lonely
and discouraged on that drive home from the date. But
I think, you know, I was definitely holding onto some
optimism and hope, which I think you have to if
you're going to deal with the apps, because the apps
(16:59):
can be credibly depressing.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
And you're a pragmatic, practical person, right, And I imagine
that that helps in this situation because if you're meeting
somebody and it's obvious there's no chemistry, hopefully you're not
walking away from it going there's something wrong with me,
because that's not what it's about, right, That's not what
it's about at all. But that can be tough on
the ego after a while if you do internalize it.
(17:23):
So having that pragmatic approach is probably really helpful.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, I think it is helpful. I think also I
ended up like just I did so much research into
almost like how to be at and how to make
a good decision.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Yeah. I read a lot of books.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
And one of the lessons that stuck with me that
I tried to implement but I found it really hard
is to always default to a second date. Whereas for me,
I've gone into dating, going one date and if I'm
not enamored, then I'm calling it. So I changed my
approach part of the way through to go I'm defaulting
to a second date unless there's a massive problem or
(18:00):
red flag on the first date, which I felt just
having that rule helped me keep an open mind. But
it did get to a point where about two years
of doing this.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I just thought, I'm so over this. Surely there's got
to be a better way of finding people.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
And so I my resid an email out to a
few close friends and I said, Okay, I want your ideas.
I'm still dating, I'm still single, but I'm taking it
really seriously finding a new partner. Give me some ideas
of like what would you do if you or me
and you could, you know, avoid the apps but still
find dates.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
And I remember someone someone emailed me back and.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
They said, well, you know, you know lots of people
like you, you know, host a podcast that's very popular.
You've got like, you know, large networks through work. Surely
with all those kind of assets in inverted commas, you
could utilize those to find a date.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
And I thought, oh, that's interesting. And so I then.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Decided that I would try to crowdsaw dates. So what
the approach was, it was quite specific. So I put
together a list of people who I would call a
little bit more than acquaintances, so they weren't my inner
circle of friends. Because my inner circle of friends they
knew I was looking for someone. They know me if
they knew someone, they would have introduced me. So yeah,
(19:19):
so I went sort of down the friendship tears, if
you like, to people that knew me and knew my
values and kind of who I am as a person,
but is not someone that would necessarily, you know, if
they knew a person that they thought, oh they could
be great for Amantha, it just wouldn't be top of mind.
So I literally I opened up Excel and I created
a spreadsheet and I wrote down all these people's names.
(19:40):
And the other thing is I was specifically thinking about
who were the most well networked people of.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
That most people, yeah, who.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Knew the most And then I put together a one
page brief of what I was looking for.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Okay, I need to know what was on the brief, Amantha.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Well, it had a few second so it had just
basic demographics because for age demographics brought age and location
demographics because that was important. I didn't want a long
distance thing, and I didn't want to be dating someone
you know it was like twenty years younger or you know,
thirty years older.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Yeah, and I decided that that wasn't for me.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I had thought about what are the most important values
and what are the most important qualities.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Something I really discounted when I was dating in my twenties,
where I think I sort of focused on, you.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Know, more of the superficial things that a lot of
us have focused.
Speaker 6 (20:36):
On in our twenties, like you know, are they smarter,
are they funny? And you know they have a good job,
and is the hot all that sort of thing, But
somewhere along the lines, like I think of the guys
that I dated in my twenties and the decisions I made,
kindness didn't really feature.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
And so for me, that was front and center.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I wanted someone who at their core was just a beautiful,
kind person. And I feel that, you know, now in
my forties, I understand how important that is for a relationship,
But for a lot of the dating that I did
in my younger years, it's like I was looking for
qualities that just it didn't matter. And I knew I
also wanted someone that had a real kind of learning
(21:16):
growth kind of mindset.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Because that's how you are. You know, you're you're a searcher.
You're a learner or a researcher. You yeah, you're constantly curious. Yes,
you wouldn't want to be with someone who was this
is it, this is the way things are closing?
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Not yeah, And like I even think about some of
the rituals that that Neo, my partner, and I have,
and it's like for a lot of people they would
think that, like these are mad rituals, like what are
you doing? But for us, because we're very similar in
our value set, it just makes sense because.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm just ask you about that one second.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
We're going to get onto Neo in a bit when
we when we when we find him.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
But when I love this idea of.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Ask when you when you actually articulate what you want,
because I've heard women of all kinds of different ages
talk about this. Jesse Stevens, who's my co host on
out Loud. Not long before she met her partner Lucas,
she said she'd been disastered and she was only in
her twenties, but she had been disastrously dating and she
did write a list and a lot of people teased
her about it because they're like, you shouldn't be so
(22:17):
close minded. You know, it's kind of a bit judgmental
to write a list. You know, Lightning strikes in all
kind of ways, and just like what you just said
kindness was top of her list, and then she met
the guy and he was very kind when you wrote
your list, and then you shared that list with your circle.
A that feels like quite a vulnerable thing to do,
(22:37):
like kind of showing that to people in your world
like I do. It can even be vulnerable saying I
really would like to meet someone and I haven't, but
also these are the things that matter to me. Were
you worried about that vulnerability and were you worried about
seeming I don't know, And so a twofold question, Well,
did the vulnerability worry you? And do you think there's
just power in getting really clear about what matters to you?
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Yes? And yes.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
So I still remember how I felt when I called
these people. Actually had a list of fifty people, and
I thought, I'm just going to start with ten, treated
as an experiment, And I remember every one of those
ten phone calls, and I felt so nervous.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I felt sick in the stomach.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
It felt like a really big deal to put yourself
out there and say I'm like, unashamedly looking for a
partner and I really want your help. I was so nervous,
and what I got on the receiving end and keeping
in mind these people like I knew them, but I
didn't know them well, Like I knew them well enough
for them to be on the list well.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Enough they were going to pick up the phone or
onunce your email and be like, Hi, i'mnthing a good
tear from you. But then they'd be like, oh, that's
what we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Today, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
And I remember every one of them was just like
so so honored to be asked and so excited to help.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
And I ran it as.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Like a four week campaign where every week I would
send them like a little nudge, a little question to
try to trigger memories around all the people that they
might know. And then I think I had some kind
of an incentive, not that they needed an incentive, because
I think they just you know, enjoyed the idea of
helping that I'd make it. I think I was going
to make a hundred dollar donation to charity for every
(24:17):
date that I went on that they found me.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Yeah, And the experiment was an utter failure.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Not a single date came out of that experiment.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Why do you think that was?
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Well, I think it was because I had a very
clear brief, and it wasn't an extensive brief, it wasn't
a long brief. I think all up there were nine
points that was it because I think one of the
arts of making a great brief is making it very
succinct as opposed to a whole shopping list, and that
was really hard, but it was a good process to
(24:52):
go through. I think for myself in going what are
the absolute must haves here? But I also think it
is hard to find someone that is your person. I
think it's harder when it's when you're in your forties
because just I mean statistically, a lot of people are
still married. It's not like in your twenties, where the
(25:13):
majority of people are probably single or in you know,
like not non life committed relationships. So just statistically, it's
really different. And I think when you're in your forties
and beyond, like you're really clear on who you are
and what you value and what is important and what
you won't compromise on. And I think that for me
(25:36):
because I had no biological clock ticking, I had my
beautiful daughter she's now ten. There's also no sense of
urgency as well, and that changes everything when it comes
to dating.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
As a woman.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
That's so interesting because it's true. It's like you this,
to put it in very basic language, you don't need
to settle, like you know what I mean, You don't
need It's not you don't necessarily need a partner for
financial reasons or to have a baby with, or to
buy a house or whatever, because you're well established in
your life, your career.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
You've got your beautiful daughter, as.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
You say, so a partner, as you said at the beginning,
you said, I know that life is for me. Life
is better shared. That's your goal. It's not just anyone
will do. It's got to be shared with the right person.
Not that not that we all go around thinking anyone
will do. But a lot of those filters, you know,
they're stronger at this point because you don't need to settle,
(26:32):
right I think so.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
I think when you're racing against a clock as a woman,
if you do want to have children, then it just
I think sometimes it can lead to more pragmatic decision making.
And I hold no judgment against that because I totally
get that.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
I totally get that.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
But my experience was it was very, very different without
at any kind of timeline, Like yes, I wanted to
find someone you know, and sooner would have been better
than later. But equally it had to be an additive
because life was really good before Neo, and unless that
was going to add something really wonderful to life, then
(27:17):
why why would you? Because obviously relationships involve sacrifices as well,
and so you know, the additive needs to be strong.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
So we've written this type brief. I'm just imagining your friends.
The reason that you didn't get dates out of that
going through it because the brief was type being like, well,
yes he's smart, but he's not creative, and they're like
crossing it out and then or whatever it was. Anyway,
then so that didn't work and you went back on hinge.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Now quite quickly you did meet Neo.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Do you think the list exercised the brief helped you
further clarify things when you did go back into app world?
Speaker 5 (27:56):
It absolutely did.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
But I also think I mean, like, look, it was
putting pen to paper with what I knew inside to
be true. But with Neo, I'd like, it wasn't an
arming and r ring, like oh you know, I remember
like our first phone call that we had, so we connected,
(28:19):
we messaged we voice memode, and then we had a
phone call, and I used to have this rule for
when we would get to the phone call part of
the dating process, which which i'd strongly recommend instead of
just going straight to a face to face date, because
you can tell a lot in a phone conversation. I
used to have this rule that I wouldn't let a
phone conversation go over an hour because which sounds like
(28:44):
quite an anal strange rule, but the reason for it
is that I'd had experiences where I had connected with
someone on the app, and like, I can think of
a couple of instances where we talked for like two
or three hours on the phone. And when you talk
to someone for that long and they're a stranger and
they're normally you know, I feel like when it's a
phone conversation, you sort of let it let down some
(29:05):
of your guard and you can talk about things that
are quite vulnerable because there's no visual, there's just voice.
And something about that I think brings on to honesty
in a yeah and an intimacy in the conversation. And
what then I'd done between the phone conversation and the
face to face date in those instances is that I've
just started to project all these qualities onto the person.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
That really I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
I just talked to them on the phone. And then
the first date was a real letdown, and so I thought,
I'm just going to limit that first phone conversation to
an hour. It's like, it's long enough to get a
really good feel for someone, but it's not so long
that you're learning all this stuff and then forming, like
starting all these assumptions and projections of what this person
(29:50):
could possibly be. Because I found that that's really unhelpful
going into a date.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
After this shortbreak, we're going to hear about a month
first date with Neo and whether all her hard work
paid off.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Stay with us.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So, your first conversation with Neo did it break this rule?
Speaker 5 (30:11):
Yeah? It did, But I told him about the rule.
I look, I remember, you know. It was in the evening.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I think we got to about nine o'clock at night
and I looked at my watch and I said, Neo,
so I've got this rule, and I got to cut
the phone conversation short now and I explained why, and
because he's as nerdy as me, he's like, I totally
get it. And then we just ended up talking I
think for another fifteen or twenty minutes, and then I'm like, Okay.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
We really have to go. Now this rule has been broken.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
But I think I just I knew after that phone
conversation that I think this guy's pretty special.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
I think this is going to be a good first date.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Tell me about your first date.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
I remember one of the I think like it was
kind of like a bit of a pet peeve where
I feel like I spent a lot of my life,
you know, in charge and in a leadership kind of
role as a business owner, and I really appreciated it
when the person that I was dating would take charge
and take some initiative in terms of what are we
doing for the first date or the second date. And
it's kind of owned some of those decisions because I
(31:11):
will naturally go to that role. But I really like
it when I'm relieved of that role. And I remember
Neo texted me and he said, so, I've been thinking
about what we could do for our first date, and
what do you reckon about going bowling?
Speaker 5 (31:23):
And I thought, oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Like he's you know, a bit like quirky and creative,
and he's put some thought into it, and he had
his reasons for suggesting bowling, and then we'd go for
a drink afterwards. So we went tenpin bowling, and I
remember that there was just really fun eighties music blasting
over the speakers, and you know, this like one or
two hour, you know, several games of bowling. It was
(31:48):
just it was fun and it was silly, and it
was lighthearted and it was flirty and you know that,
Like there was a bit of conversation, but there wasn't
pressure on the conversation, and then when we went to
a bar afterwards, it's like we just you know, dealt
in the conversation.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
I think the date ended at like two in the morning,
which I mean like my bedtimes ten.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I know you're alive. That's what I know about you.
You're alark. It's you're an early morning person.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I am so like, I don't do two am, but
on this first date I did.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
So it was pretty obvious straight away that this was
special and different to those other fifty first dates very much.
And so did was it all sort of plane sailing
from there? I mean, we've already put a spoiler at
the beginning of this episode, which is that you are
getting married and Neo is the man you're getting married to.
(32:40):
But I guess what I want to know is, you know,
when you are falling in love in mid you've got
it's very different in a way from when you're young
and you're you know, you haven't got all the experiences
in the wisdom of what can go wrong, or how
sometimes things that start beautifully you can fall apart, or
(33:01):
sometimes people who charm the pants off you, maybe literally,
maybe figuratively, can then turn out to have some serious
red flags and that can make us all you know,
it can it can complicate things right because we're wiser
and more experienced, but that also can mean we're more guarded,
Like how was it was it immediate that you could
(33:21):
trust him that things were going to go well?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
How did it progress?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
There were two things that I think about that I
think served me really well in terms of navigating that.
The first is that I became really good through all
the dating that I did over those two years, just keeping.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
An eye on whether words.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Matched actions, because people can say a lot of good
words in dating, but often the actions or the behavior
won't align with those words. And what became really clear,
particularly in those first six months where you're falling in
love but you're also getting to know someone well and
certainly like you know in the three years that we've
(34:03):
been together, is that the words always matched the actions,
and for me, that was really important. The second thing
that was really helpful is that I had done maybe
I've been, you know, in and out of therapy for
a lot of my life. I think as a psychologist,
even though I'm an organizational psychologist not a clinical one,
(34:24):
I've always just really believed in the value of therapy,
and so, you know, I've had chunks of my life
where I've been very committed to therapy. And during those
two years of dating, I was seeing a therapist fortnightly,
sometimes weekly, and a lot of the discussion was around
relationships and dating and experiences that I was having. And
(34:47):
what I came to realize is, you know, and I
imagine you've probably had guests talk about attachment theory, and
what I learned about myself is that I have the
tendency to to have like an anxious attachment system like
that can get activated where I'm not sure where I stand,
(35:07):
but I think when you've got that anxious attachment system
being activated, what tends to happen when you're in those
early stages of dating and you're kind of not quite
sure where you stand, You're not quite sure if they
feel the same way. You can confuse that anxiety for
lust or god to be love.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
For butterflies and the yes, can I just ask you
on that? MEA did an episode of No Filter about
attachment theory with an expert, and we'll put a link
in the show notes. But is the ideal situation that
you and the person you pair with have the same
attachment type or that you have complementary attachment types.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
I would say one thing you don't want is you
don't want someone who who is kind of anxiously attached
matching with someone who is an avoidant where they avoid intimacy.
That like, if you look at any unhealthy relationship or
kind of dating situation, there's a high probability that that
(36:07):
pattern the problem is going on. But the thing is, like,
based on the person who you're with, and depending also
on what their attachment style is, that can bring out
a different attachment style in you. So what I felt
with Neo and what I think if I hadn't gone
through those two years of therapy, I would have misinterpreted.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
What was going on is.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
That I didn't like I felt butterflies, and I felt
excited to see him. But I didn't feel that anxiety
that I in past situations had mistaken for falling in love.
It just felt like I felt really safe, and I
don't think i'd experienced that with anyone that I dated.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
I knew exactly where I stood.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
And what happened with that experience with this, I guess
secure attachment that Neo offered me, and just this confidence
in where we stood, it meant that my anxious attachment
system wasn't activated, and so therefore it's like I was
just really present and I wasn't making up stories in
my mind, and I wasn't thinking that, Oh, because I
(37:15):
feel this way, it must mean that I'm madly in
love and.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
This is my person.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Instead, I knew it was coming from I guess like,
you know, a more secure place.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
Now.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
I've heard you and Neo interviewed, and it's clear that
you are. You have a lot of shared passions. You're
both really curious, really interested in experimenting with different ways
of living, different health things, different habits. Tell me a
little bit about how you knew that he was indeed
your person in this healthy way.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Oh gosh, I mean, there there were so many things.
I think one thing that we.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Do that was a monthly ritual.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
We've sort of we've adapted the ritual slightly, but for
the first couple of years of the relationship. And I
think if some Neo's suggestion, but the fact that it
was Neo's suggestion, but it could have been mine's suggestion.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
I just don't I can't remember tells you a lot.
It's just like how.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Similar we are in terms of our mindedness. Is that
we decided that we would have a monthly meeting about
our relationship. We used to call it our monthly check in. Wow,
we still call we still call it our monthly check in.
And we devised a series of questions and I can
share some of them with.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
You, you know.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Yeah, Yeah, that would basically be a chance where we
actually have time carved out, and typically it was on
a date night. You know, we would go out to
a restaurant or you know, we've got that space where
we're actually talking and reflecting about us and about how
we're behaving towards each other and about how we're feeling,
so you know, some of the questions like somewhere about
(38:51):
you know, acknowledging the positives. Like one question was what
are we appreciating most about the other person?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Which is so simple, but.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It's really powerful to actually sit down with your partner
once a month and here, what are they appreciating and
also think about that to them. You know, we also
would talk about what do we need from the other
person that we're not getting, which again just having that
space where a lot of times that's an uncomfortable conversation
to have, but if you've got this time carved out
(39:21):
where like there is space and the freedom to just go, okay,
this is the conversation that we're having, and it feels
much more comfortable to bring that up. We also like
reflect and go what have been our best connection moments
in the month just gone, and again being mindful, because
if we're mindful of those, then we can go how
can we recreate more of those those really powerful moments.
(39:42):
So they're just some examples, and so we did that
pretty religiously for a good two and a half years.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
And that shows obviously or compatibility because there would be
some people you could be dating who you'd say I
think we should do this, and they'd.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Be like, are you joking? That would be their worst nightmare.
They would be running out the door.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
So it's beautiful that you've found somebody who you know
that you found each other rather in this way. Tell
me a little bit too, for the listeners who are
dating and they've got kids.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
You obviously you have a daughter. She's ten. NEO doesn't
have kids, is.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
That right, correct? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
But being you and the very mindful person you are,
I know that you were did a lot of research
in the best way to introduce this person who you
knew was going to be around to your daughter. Tell
me what you learned about that and what worked and
what didn't.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
I think so midway through my whole dating experience, I
had this conversation with Michael kr Greg, who I guess is,
you know, probably one of the most well known psychologists.
I think he is a child psychologist or a clinical
psych Yeah. Yeah, and his advice really formed I guess
some of the principles that I had around how was
(40:54):
I going to integrate this person that I knew I
wanted to be my life partner into Frankie's world.
Speaker 5 (41:02):
My daughter and there.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Are a few things that he gave advice on. He said, ideally,
wait at least six months before introducing your new partner
to your daughter, and his reasons for that. And actually
Neo was the only person I dated that Frankie did
end up meeting, because obviously, if you go through a divorce,
I mean, that is an enormous amount of change and instability,
(41:27):
and I just wanted to protect her from any more
of that wherever that was in my control.
Speaker 5 (41:33):
And so I think I felt like six months was
long enough to.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Go, Yeah, there is a very very high likelihood that
this person will be around for a very very long time,
and so I wanted to be really clear on that
before Frankie and Neo met. Neo and I actually spend
a lot of time like curating what would that first
meeting be, Like, A lot of thought went into that, like,
(41:57):
for example, we wanted it to be on Frankie's home ground,
because it could have been at Neo's place, it could
have been in a neutral place like a cafe or
a park, but we wanted it to be in the
place where Frankie felt safest, and that was at my home.
And then we also wanted kind of a fun activity.
So it wasn't this like intense. Okay, let's just sit
down and have a big long conversation, you know, over
(42:19):
a meal or something that you know that can be
maybe a bit intense. We thought, what's like a fun
activity that we can all do together, and so we
decided that we'd make pizza together. And so Neo went
to all this trouble to cook pizza dough from scratch
the night before, but the yeast was off and the
pizza dough failed, and so he was like stressing about
(42:40):
his pizza dough that has failed. Ended up going to
the supermarket and border base, and then we made pizza together,
and then I think we ended up watching a movie
together that afternoon.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
So a lot of thought went into that and just thinking.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
What is going to make this the best and most
positive and most comfortable experience for Frankie.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Were you really nervous because I imagine, without obviously wanting
to pry into Frankie's world at all, but I imagine
for you you're thinking, I really love this guy, like
I can see a future. But if she hates him,
or if she's not comfortable in his presence, or if
she's not. If this doesn't work, then this changes everything.
So were you really nervous about that meeting too?
Speaker 4 (43:19):
It's funny, I was more nervous about telling Frankie that
I'd been dating someone.
Speaker 5 (43:25):
Right, because she didn't know anything about my dating life.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
She didn't, you know, like I kept that very very
separate to my role as a mum.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
With Frankie.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
We know other friends of mine had made different choices,
and you know that they might have had older kids
where that actually show them the apps and get them
a bit involved.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
But Frankie had no idea.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
And I remember one night, like I you know, we
were sitting in bed talking, you know, before bedtime, and
I remember I was so nervous and I shared the
news with her and I said, I've you know, I've
met Salmon and we've been dating, and I'd really like
you to meet them.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
Would you like to meet them? And she like she
was all excited.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
She said, oh, does that mean you're getting married? And
I get to go to a wedding?
Speaker 5 (44:07):
And I think she was stabbed at the time.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Maybe when I say no, it doesn't quite mean that,
but and anyway, so it went from there and then
I think about a week later we had the meeting.
So I was actually more nervous about that, just telling
her that like her mum, who she's only ever known
in relation to her dad, is now bringing another man
into this family system. So that was really nerve wracking.
(44:32):
But she was like really good and happy about that.
I actually wasn't nervous about how Frankie and Neo would
get along, because yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (44:42):
Just wasn't nervous about that.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
I knew, I think I just I just knew that
they would, and I knew like just what a beautiful,
kind of fun person Neo was, and just how caring
and thoughtful he was, And I just thought, man, like,
you know, I just think Frankie is, you know, just
the luckiest girl to have like this amazing male role model,
(45:04):
you know, in addition to her dad, like in her life.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Oh how gorgeous?
Speaker 3 (45:12):
After this break? How did Amantha know she was ready
to get married again? Stay right here, we'll be back
in a minute. We've got to get to the point
at which you have decided to get married again. So
tell me, was this always did you? After your divorce?
(45:33):
Did you ever think I'm not going to get married again?
Or is it something you were very keen to happen
or what and how did it come about?
Speaker 4 (45:40):
I would say I just had no attachment to it.
I thought, maybe I will, maybe I won't. It wasn't
something I was aspiring to. It wasn't something I was
aiming for. But I remember about two years into our relationship,
you know, we talked about this. We talked a lot
about our views on marriage. Neo felt pretty similarly to me,
and that, you know, he been married before, he'd been
(46:01):
married for nineteen years or with his last partner for
nineteen years, and you know, we could both give or
take marriage. And then I remember we'd been on the
Separate Bathrooms podcast together when I was promoting The Health Habit,
my last book, and they had introduced Neo as my husband,
and we just had like a bit of a laugh
(46:22):
about it. Afterwards I heard that, I was like, that's
a bit awkward, But because we talked about it so much,
it just wasn't awkward. But I can imagine it would
have been awkward for us for some people. But anyway,
it just we I remember we went on a walk
a little bit after we'd recorded that podcast episode, and
you know, I said like like where are you at,
(46:42):
Like what do you think about getting married? And we
just had this like walking conversation where we talked about
for both of us in a very similar way, our
views on marriage had changed, and we felt that it
was actually something that had started to feel important. And
I think also thinking about Frankie and the security that
(47:02):
she feels, I thought, you know, as a child, when
you've been through a divorce, I think there's something that
maybe feels like there's some stability when there is a marriage.
And you know, again like no judgment on anyone else's choices,
but it just felt right for us, and so we decided.
Then we sort of said, I think this is something
(47:24):
that we want to do. And I'm about six months
after that conversation, Neo proposed when we were on a holiday,
and so it was kind of it was absolutely beautiful,
but it wasn't a surprise because of that conversation. Gorgeous
And so you're getting married next year? Is this and
what will be different about this wedding?
Speaker 5 (47:45):
Ah, what will be different?
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Look, I mean my first wedding was pretty low key,
but this is it's a small wedding. It's just our
close friends and families, so about fifty people and we're
doing it.
Speaker 5 (47:56):
In our house.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Oh how gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Got like wonderful celebrant who used to be a pop
star in the eighties, and she's super fun, perfect, and
it's it's not overstated. It's small, it's intimate, it's meaningful,
it's it's kind of yeah, so happy you want it
to me?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
He looks so happy and Manthea, you're like, when you're
talking about it, you're just beaming.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's just gorgeous. It makes me very happy.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
But if someone is listening to this who maybe has
been through a relationship breakup and is thinking I'm never
going to meet him, I would like to like you.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I would because not everybody does. There are a lot
of women in mid who.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Are like I never want to repartner, I don't want
to look after anybody. I don't want to repeat any
of those things. I'm just going to live. That's which
is great. But if you, if like you, you're thinking
life is better shared, what's your best piece of advice
for how to handle that?
Speaker 4 (48:47):
I would say, get really clear on what you're looking
for and what you most what you won't compromise on.
I think the quality of your decisions when you're going
through a dating process where you are making literally thousands
of decisions. If you're using the apps, the more clear
you can be on what matters to you, I think,
(49:10):
the better your outcome will be.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
That's very good advice, Amantha. I love your love story.
I'm so happy for you and Neo. I'm so happy.
I can't wait to see your wedding pictures somewhere, and
thank you also for your wisdom.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
As always.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Look, I just love that conversation. Amantha is getting married
in March to Neo, and what I particular love about
that is, you know, my gran would have said, every
pot has its lid. If your pot is a little
bit different to other people's pots, that's okay. I love
how specific Amantha was. It's a wonderful story. But if
(49:54):
you are after more dating stories about midlife, then please
do listen to the episode I told you about it
Front with Catherine Mahoney.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
It's very funny.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
But also if you are in the throes of divorce
and you're going through the horrors of that, that can
be incredibly difficult, knock you around unbelievably. I want you
to go and listen to the episode we did with
Nicki Parkinson because it is raw and uplifting in a
way that we don't hear people talking about divorce very often.
As always, I want to thank you all mids for
(50:24):
being here with us for these big conversations that we're having.
Please jump on and follow us on Instagram. DM me
with any ideas about the show. You'll find me on
Instagram too, at Waynwright, Holly, and I'd love to hear
your thoughts. Don't forget to give us a rating horror review.
It really helps other people find MID. And of course
I want to offer a massive thank you to our team.
(50:44):
The MID team is executive producer nam A Brown, senior
producer Grace Ruvre, and producer Charlie Blackman. And we've had
sound design and production by Jacob Brown. And I'm your host,
Holly Wainwright and I'll see you back here next week
for more Mid
Hello, four or five six listeners. My name is Naima Brown,
and I'm the executive producer of Mid with Holly Wainwright,
Mamma MIA's flagship podcast for our gen X listeners, and
we are bringing you a special episode today, four or
five six ers, because it's about finding love in your
mid years. This is a conversation with doctor Amantha Imber.
(00:20):
She's an organizational psychologist who got divorced a few years ago.
When she knew she was ready to repartner, she went
about it with a typical approach to efficiency, which meant
that she went on more than fifty first dates in
her first stint of online dating. How did this work
out for her? Is it a happily ever after? You'll
have to listen. I hope you enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm writing a brief.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
It's for my perfect second husband, actually my first husband,
because my current one, Brent, is not really my husband,
but my boyfriend. He's been my boyfriend for twenty years
this year. And my boyfriend and I have.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Two children, a more brggage, a dog.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Two decades of shared history and stories and travels and
shared friendships and families and illnesses and deaths and miscarriages
and weddings and funerals and money worries and work stress
and fights and diagnoses and at least five different homes
and wordle and sundowners and a great.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Deal of laughter.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
For now, at least, we are stuck too, and with
each other. But if I, like my guest today, found
myself suddenly single again, would I, like my guest today,
get busy with a blank page, fill in and Excel spreadsheet,
devoid of history and the messiness of familiarity, and ask
myself what.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Do I want next?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And if I did, would the universe laugh at me
the way it did twenty years ago, when I was
convinced what I wanted was not what was right in
front of me, but a whole list.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Of unchecked boxes.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
I'd dated musicians and artists and cliff scaling, risk takers,
addicts and travel as an earnest world changes. I had
the words life less ordinary taped on a corkboard somewhere,
and I took those words to mean chaos and drama
and constant movement manifestos.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That's not what I got.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
If the universe knew anything, it was that I'd had
my fill of all that. But back to the blank
sheet of my imagination. If I was single, with all
my mid wisdom under my arm, like my guest today,
would I devise a strategy, write up some rules, enforce
the guardrails, start a stop watch and email chain, a
(02:35):
crowdsourcing plan. I doubt it. I'm not a strategist. I'm
a panser, not a plotter. But if we are here
and the lines must be filled in, I would learn
to click on my Excel cells and I would drag
and drop and I would write kind, funny, kind, tall, kind, smart, kind, warm, kind, optimistic, kind, creative, kind, calm, kind, hot,
(03:07):
and probably because this was my brief and only my brief,
I would feed it into a hungry AI assistant and
it would split out a photo of print, and that
would be really, really annoying and also perfect.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Hello.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Hello, My name is Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife,
mid family, mid long relationship. Today's episode is all about love. Specifically,
it's about finding it in your mid years, maybe for
the second time, maybe for the fourth, maybe for the first.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
We've touched on this.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Before here and mid Our second ever episode was called
the midlife Dating Pool?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Has we in It?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And it was about Katherine Mahoney's chaotic app dating world,
and it was very, very funny, and you all told
me that you wanted more of those stories. And so
today something very different about dating after a divorce, A
story about a woman who did it in the most
methodical way. I can imagine a woman who knew exactly
what she wanted, and her particular list of needs and
(04:15):
wants weren't necessarily the same as her friends, and the
way she was going to find the partner that she
knew she wanted was probably not going to be the
same either. Doctor Amantha Imber is one of the most efficient, productive,
and interesting people I know. She is an organizational psychologist,
and organizational psychologists are amazing, and she is the creator
(04:37):
of the innovation business Inventium, and she hosts the podcast
How I Work. And she is the author of a
few books and the mother to one child. And she
also got divorced a few years ago. Organizational psychologists don't
necessarily date the same way chaotic writers do. It seems
Amantha took an efficient approach when she decided she wanted
(04:59):
a new She decided to balance quantity and quality on
the dating apps, and she went on fifty one first
dates in her first stint of online dating. Those dates
had strict rules and boundaries, time limits and schedules, and
they didn't work. So then Amantha drew up a brief
and cold called a whole lot of people in her
(05:19):
circle who might know the person she was looking for.
But well, that didn't work either, So what did I'm
going to let her tell you that, Amantha, You're getting married.
Massive congratulations, Thanks Holly, thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
I need to.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Let the mids in on the fact that I have
interviewed you before a couple of times. Actually, but the
last time we had a proper chat I looked today,
it was actually eight years ago.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Oh my gosh. And that was in Melbourne, yep, it was.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
And it was in Melbourne, and we were talking about
because you owned your own company, and you were talking
about this wild way of working where people could work
remotely from wherever they wanted to, and all these things
that at the time was so mind boggling that I
came back to work and said to everybody, you won't
believe it. Fast forward eight years and a lot has changed,
(06:13):
but also a lot has changed in your life since then.
Catch me up quickly, on what's been going on with
you in the last eight years.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Oh well, look, lots changed at work, and you know,
we've now been doing the four day week for the
last four years, and that's you know, that's a whole
other topic of conversation. But in my personal life, the
most significant thing that has happened is that I got
divorced in twenty nineteen and I am getting married in
(06:43):
March twenty twenty five, which is.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Very exciting and I need. That's what we're here to
talk about, because a lot of midlife women are divorced,
dating not dating, deciding if they want any part of
it ever again. And I would love to hear from you,
who's one of the smartest women I know for sure.
Was it soon after your divorce that you were like,
I know, I want to repartner, or did you go
(07:08):
through that period of time where you were like, never again.
I think I want to be single forever.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
I think before the separation and then the divorce happened,
I'd probably been grieving that relationship for a while, and
so I think, you know, in any relationship breakdown, I
think there's always one person that probably knows first. Sometimes
it is mutual but I think oftentimes, and stories I've
heard from my friends that have been separated is that
(07:35):
they will have grieved if they were the one making
the decision before the actual relationship ended. And so I
can't remember when exactly I knew that I definitely wanted
to repartner, but it would have only been a few
months after the breakdown of the relationship. So I definitely
(07:56):
knew that one of my values is that life is
best shared with someone and that's just me, and I
knew that I felt that way, and so I knew
that I wanted to take finding a new partner really seriously.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
And you did.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
I want to know, first of all, because I imagine,
correct me if I'm wrong that you went to the
apps first, and the apps didn't really exist probably the
last time you were single. Certainly the last time I
was single, there was like RSVP online, and I did
play with that a bit, but the whole dating app
revolution hadn't started.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
How did you find the apps first?
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Up? Oh wow, Yeah, it's totally different world because I
was with my ex husband for thirteen years, so there
was definitely no apps, but RSVP was definitely a thing.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
So when I decided I was ready to date again,
which was a few months after the separation. I think
I tried bumble first and it was Man, it's like it's.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
A whole other world. It is so strange.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
And I was very reliant on the apps because the
two main years where I was dating before I met
Neo my soon to be husband, was twenty twenty and
twenty twenty one, and I live in Melbourne and I
was locked down for a good part of those two years,
so APPS was really the main way to meet people.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
I can imagine that that was also made it particularly difficult,
because I mean, apart from the fact that you're all
locked in your houses, but it was also the extra
level of how careful is everybody? Do we meet up
under what circumstances? It's not like you're going to bars
and things like that. It was very, very different.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
It certainly was, and I think they needed to be
quite a high level of trust to meet up with
someone face to face, which you know, oftentimes might have
been for like a walk around the park wearing a mask,
which I mean, what strange way to get to know
someone when you can't even read their facial expressions. But
I think what was good about online dating is that
(10:10):
for me, given like you know, part of my work
is around productivity and using time more wisely, is that
it's also quite efficient in that you can screen a
lot of people a lot more quickly than you can
if you're just reliant on meeting people in real life
or through connections in the workplace, or you know other
ways that people meet their partners.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So yeah, so the listeners understand you are a psychologist,
you are a productivity expert, you're an academic, You're big
on research, you're big on efficiency. So did you devise
a kind of system for how to weed out the
wheat from the chaff in the dating world?
Speaker 5 (10:47):
I did.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
What I realized pretty early on is that there is
a huge amount of quantity.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Time is finite.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
I run a business, and so therefore I work something
that resembles full time hours. I've got a daughter that
is with me fifty percent of the time. I've got friends,
I've got family, and so there's a part of time
that I carved out for dating, and I wanted to
use that time really well as opposed to almost have
the dating apps become like social media is for a
(11:15):
lot of people where you're just kind of mindlessly on
it without too much of an end goal. So I
tried to be very conscientious almost in how I use the.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Apps and siphon off time that you're like, I'm going
to look at it between this time and this time.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
I absolutely did.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Yeah, yeah, Like I didn't stick to that one hundred
percent of the time, but most of the time I
was quite conscious. It's like, okay, if I'm opening up
Bumble or Hinge, and they were my main go tos.
I tried Tinder, which just don't even get me started
on how that's the Yeah, there's no way.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So they're all quite different.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
They're very different. They're very different.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
I would have a bit of a process where you
connect with someone if you've both I guess liked each other.
And granted things might have changed in terms of the
features of these apps given where now you know, I
think three years that's all that. But then what was
really important for me is rather than just exchanging words,
and I mean, words are important, and we're both writers,
(12:17):
so I think you and I can appreciate the importance
of how someone uses words. But beyond that, I mean,
so like good grammar matters to me. Which might sound superficial,
but I think it's important.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
I know it does to me too, and I worry
that it makes me a snob, but it's very much.
I think it's just if that's part of your value, like,
if that's part of what you do in your value system.
It's very hard if somebody just it doesn't use grammar
and doesn't and spells everything wrong and.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
And then I had to try to develop other heuristics,
like things that would just help me shortcut decision making,
because if you agonize over every single person that you're
looking at on an app, I mean it's a never
ending task. And so just for the sake of using
my time, well, I thought, I just need some quick
decision making rules that will help me decide yes I
(13:07):
want to know more or no swipe left, which I
think is the direction that you say no in man,
I think.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I've just repressed all this stuff, Holly.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
So I had a thing where I would move to
voice memo quite quickly, because I think you can tell
a lot about someone by their voice and how they
speak and just what energy they bring to a conversation.
And so I would move from text to voice fairly quickly,
and because I think that feature was just being introduced
(13:37):
at the time, it was a little bit unusual, and
so people would often reply by, oh, I didn't even
know that there was a voice recording feature in the app,
and we would exchange a few messages and I would
just get a bit of a feel for them. So
again I could go, Hm, does this feel like someone
that has the kind of energy that I want to
be with? And again, I mean, I'm sure that there
are lots of people in the world that are fantastic
(13:59):
that probably wouldn't say great in a voice memo, And yes,
I ruled them all.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
Out because of this little heuristic that I developed.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
But time is finite, and so I had to keep
coming back to that and going, look, I just I
need decision making criteriously and I'm not agonizing some things.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And then so you went on some dates from the
dating apps, but then you decided to come off the
apps for a while and try a different kind of
dating experiment. Did you not meet anybody good on the
dating apps that first time around?
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Look?
Speaker 4 (14:29):
I reckon all up, I calculate it. I probably went
on about fifty first dates. Wow, yeah, answer, that's loads
it's so many over two years, and some of those.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Did you have like rules about the dates too, like
how long they could be, what they were and that
kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Of course I didn't tell me.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
I feel like, when you go on a date, a
lot of people feel an obligation just to stay for
a decent amount of time.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
But for me, I just thought, if we're both.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Sitting there and there's clearly no connection, just call it early.
And so I would typically I think my shortest dates
for about forty five minutes, because I felt like that
was long enough. I mean, often you can tell in
the first five minutes, but I tried not to hang
on to those first impressions as well. It's really easy
to form like very quick impressions when you start a date.
(15:22):
But I would try to just you know, force particularly
any judgmental parts.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Of my brain to just go no, no, remain open.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
But I sort of thought, look, after forty five minutes,
I'm just going to call it. And sometimes I was
honest and I just said I just don't feel like
there's a connection here. Other times I just made up
a lie, yeah, and said that I had to go
to you know, in my mind, protect the other person's feelings.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
So I did a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Some of those first dates turned into second dates and more,
but most did not, And that was fine, because you know,
it takes meeting a lot of people to find the
person that you feel the disconnection.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Were you ever like, oh, you know, this is exhausting.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
What's that movie?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Where is he? I?
Speaker 5 (16:06):
As Charlotte m Sacks in the city?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Where is he?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Did you?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Did you feel like that?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (16:13):
My gosh, Holly.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
After so many dates, I would be driving home and
I would call my best friend and I would say,
I've just been on another date and it didn't work,
And like, am my standards too high? Am I expecting
too much? Like what am I doing wrong? And just oh, man?
Like there were so many low points in that two years,
(16:37):
But I think somewhere inside of me I felt I
did feel truly optimistic, even though there were lots of
low points and lots of nights just feeling really lonely
and discouraged on that drive home from the date. But
I think, you know, I was definitely holding onto some
optimism and hope, which I think you have to if
you're going to deal with the apps, because the apps
(16:59):
can be credibly depressing.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
And you're a pragmatic, practical person, right, And I imagine
that that helps in this situation because if you're meeting
somebody and it's obvious there's no chemistry, hopefully you're not
walking away from it going there's something wrong with me,
because that's not what it's about, right, That's not what
it's about at all. But that can be tough on
the ego after a while if you do internalize it.
(17:23):
So having that pragmatic approach is probably really helpful.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, I think it is helpful. I think also I
ended up like just I did so much research into
almost like how to be at and how to make
a good decision.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Yeah. I read a lot of books.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
And one of the lessons that stuck with me that
I tried to implement but I found it really hard
is to always default to a second date. Whereas for me,
I've gone into dating, going one date and if I'm
not enamored, then I'm calling it. So I changed my
approach part of the way through to go I'm defaulting
to a second date unless there's a massive problem or
(18:00):
red flag on the first date, which I felt just
having that rule helped me keep an open mind. But
it did get to a point where about two years
of doing this.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I just thought, I'm so over this. Surely there's got
to be a better way of finding people.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
And so I my resid an email out to a
few close friends and I said, Okay, I want your ideas.
I'm still dating, I'm still single, but I'm taking it
really seriously finding a new partner. Give me some ideas
of like what would you do if you or me
and you could, you know, avoid the apps but still
find dates.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
And I remember someone someone emailed me back and.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
They said, well, you know, you know lots of people
like you, you know, host a podcast that's very popular.
You've got like, you know, large networks through work. Surely
with all those kind of assets in inverted commas, you
could utilize those to find a date.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
And I thought, oh, that's interesting. And so I then.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Decided that I would try to crowdsaw dates. So what
the approach was, it was quite specific. So I put
together a list of people who I would call a
little bit more than acquaintances, so they weren't my inner
circle of friends. Because my inner circle of friends they
knew I was looking for someone. They know me if
they knew someone, they would have introduced me. So yeah,
(19:19):
so I went sort of down the friendship tears, if
you like, to people that knew me and knew my
values and kind of who I am as a person,
but is not someone that would necessarily, you know, if
they knew a person that they thought, oh they could
be great for Amantha, it just wouldn't be top of mind.
So I literally I opened up Excel and I created
a spreadsheet and I wrote down all these people's names.
(19:40):
And the other thing is I was specifically thinking about
who were the most well networked people of.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
That most people, yeah, who.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Knew the most And then I put together a one
page brief of what I was looking for.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Okay, I need to know what was on the brief, Amantha.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Well, it had a few second so it had just
basic demographics because for age demographics brought age and location
demographics because that was important. I didn't want a long
distance thing, and I didn't want to be dating someone
you know it was like twenty years younger or you know,
thirty years older.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Yeah, and I decided that that wasn't for me.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
I had thought about what are the most important values
and what are the most important qualities.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
And I think that's.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Something I really discounted when I was dating in my twenties,
where I think I sort of focused on, you.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Know, more of the superficial things that a lot of
us have focused.
Speaker 6 (20:36):
On in our twenties, like you know, are they smarter,
are they funny? And you know they have a good job,
and is the hot all that sort of thing, But
somewhere along the lines, like I think of the guys
that I dated in my twenties and the decisions I made,
kindness didn't really feature.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
And so for me, that was front and center.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I wanted someone who at their core was just a beautiful,
kind person. And I feel that, you know, now in
my forties, I understand how important that is for a relationship,
But for a lot of the dating that I did
in my younger years, it's like I was looking for
qualities that just it didn't matter. And I knew I
also wanted someone that had a real kind of learning
(21:16):
growth kind of mindset.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Because that's how you are. You know, you're you're a searcher.
You're a learner or a researcher. You yeah, you're constantly curious. Yes,
you wouldn't want to be with someone who was this
is it, this is the way things are closing?
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Not yeah, And like I even think about some of
the rituals that that Neo, my partner, and I have,
and it's like for a lot of people they would
think that, like these are mad rituals, like what are
you doing? But for us, because we're very similar in
our value set, it just makes sense because.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm just ask you about that one second.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
We're going to get onto Neo in a bit when
we when we when we find him.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
But when I love this idea of.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Ask when you when you actually articulate what you want,
because I've heard women of all kinds of different ages
talk about this. Jesse Stevens, who's my co host on
out Loud. Not long before she met her partner Lucas,
she said she'd been disastered and she was only in
her twenties, but she had been disastrously dating and she
did write a list and a lot of people teased
her about it because they're like, you shouldn't be so
(22:17):
close minded. You know, it's kind of a bit judgmental
to write a list. You know, Lightning strikes in all
kind of ways, and just like what you just said
kindness was top of her list, and then she met
the guy and he was very kind when you wrote
your list, and then you shared that list with your circle.
A that feels like quite a vulnerable thing to do,
(22:37):
like kind of showing that to people in your world
like I do. It can even be vulnerable saying I
really would like to meet someone and I haven't, but
also these are the things that matter to me. Were
you worried about that vulnerability and were you worried about
seeming I don't know, And so a twofold question, Well,
did the vulnerability worry you? And do you think there's
just power in getting really clear about what matters to you?
Speaker 5 (23:00):
Yes? And yes.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
So I still remember how I felt when I called
these people. Actually had a list of fifty people, and
I thought, I'm just going to start with ten, treated
as an experiment, And I remember every one of those
ten phone calls, and I felt so nervous.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
I felt sick in the stomach.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
It felt like a really big deal to put yourself
out there and say I'm like, unashamedly looking for a
partner and I really want your help. I was so nervous,
and what I got on the receiving end and keeping
in mind these people like I knew them, but I
didn't know them well, Like I knew them well enough
for them to be on the list well.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Enough they were going to pick up the phone or
onunce your email and be like, Hi, i'mnthing a good
tear from you. But then they'd be like, oh, that's
what we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Today, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
And I remember every one of them was just like
so so honored to be asked and so excited to help.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
And I ran it as.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Like a four week campaign where every week I would
send them like a little nudge, a little question to
try to trigger memories around all the people that they
might know. And then I think I had some kind
of an incentive, not that they needed an incentive, because
I think they just you know, enjoyed the idea of
helping that I'd make it. I think I was going
to make a hundred dollar donation to charity for every
(24:17):
date that I went on that they found me.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Yeah, And the experiment was an utter failure.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Not a single date came out of that experiment.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Why do you think that was?
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Well, I think it was because I had a very
clear brief, and it wasn't an extensive brief, it wasn't
a long brief. I think all up there were nine
points that was it because I think one of the
arts of making a great brief is making it very
succinct as opposed to a whole shopping list, and that
was really hard, but it was a good process to
(24:52):
go through. I think for myself in going what are
the absolute must haves here? But I also think it
is hard to find someone that is your person. I
think it's harder when it's when you're in your forties
because just I mean statistically, a lot of people are
still married. It's not like in your twenties, where the
(25:13):
majority of people are probably single or in you know,
like not non life committed relationships. So just statistically, it's
really different. And I think when you're in your forties
and beyond, like you're really clear on who you are
and what you value and what is important and what
you won't compromise on. And I think that for me
(25:36):
because I had no biological clock ticking, I had my
beautiful daughter she's now ten. There's also no sense of
urgency as well, and that changes everything when it comes
to dating.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
As a woman.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
That's so interesting because it's true. It's like you this,
to put it in very basic language, you don't need
to settle, like you know what I mean, You don't
need It's not you don't necessarily need a partner for
financial reasons or to have a baby with, or to
buy a house or whatever, because you're well established in
your life, your career.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
You've got your beautiful daughter, as.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
You say, so a partner, as you said at the beginning,
you said, I know that life is for me. Life
is better shared. That's your goal. It's not just anyone
will do. It's got to be shared with the right person.
Not that not that we all go around thinking anyone
will do. But a lot of those filters, you know,
they're stronger at this point because you don't need to settle,
(26:32):
right I think so.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
I think when you're racing against a clock as a woman,
if you do want to have children, then it just
I think sometimes it can lead to more pragmatic decision making.
And I hold no judgment against that because I totally
get that.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
I totally get that.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
But my experience was it was very, very different without
at any kind of timeline, Like yes, I wanted to
find someone you know, and sooner would have been better
than later. But equally it had to be an additive
because life was really good before Neo, and unless that
was going to add something really wonderful to life, then
(27:17):
why why would you? Because obviously relationships involve sacrifices as well,
and so you know, the additive needs to be strong.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
So we've written this type brief. I'm just imagining your friends.
The reason that you didn't get dates out of that
going through it because the brief was type being like, well,
yes he's smart, but he's not creative, and they're like
crossing it out and then or whatever it was. Anyway,
then so that didn't work and you went back on hinge.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Now quite quickly you did meet Neo.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Do you think the list exercised the brief helped you
further clarify things when you did go back into app world?
Speaker 5 (27:56):
It absolutely did.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
But I also think I mean, like, look, it was
putting pen to paper with what I knew inside to
be true. But with Neo, I'd like, it wasn't an
arming and r ring, like oh you know, I remember
like our first phone call that we had, so we connected,
(28:19):
we messaged we voice memode, and then we had a
phone call, and I used to have this rule for
when we would get to the phone call part of
the dating process, which which i'd strongly recommend instead of
just going straight to a face to face date, because
you can tell a lot in a phone conversation. I
used to have this rule that I wouldn't let a
phone conversation go over an hour because which sounds like
(28:44):
quite an anal strange rule, but the reason for it
is that I'd had experiences where I had connected with
someone on the app, and like, I can think of
a couple of instances where we talked for like two
or three hours on the phone. And when you talk
to someone for that long and they're a stranger and
they're normally you know, I feel like when it's a
phone conversation, you sort of let it let down some
(29:05):
of your guard and you can talk about things that
are quite vulnerable because there's no visual, there's just voice.
And something about that I think brings on to honesty
in a yeah and an intimacy in the conversation. And
what then I'd done between the phone conversation and the
face to face date in those instances is that I've
just started to project all these qualities onto the person.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
That really I didn't know.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
I just talked to them on the phone. And then
the first date was a real letdown, and so I thought,
I'm just going to limit that first phone conversation to
an hour. It's like, it's long enough to get a
really good feel for someone, but it's not so long
that you're learning all this stuff and then forming, like
starting all these assumptions and projections of what this person
(29:50):
could possibly be. Because I found that that's really unhelpful
going into a date.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
After this shortbreak, we're going to hear about a month
first date with Neo and whether all her hard work
paid off.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Stay with us.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So, your first conversation with Neo did it break this rule?
Speaker 5 (30:11):
Yeah? It did, But I told him about the rule.
I look, I remember, you know. It was in the evening.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I think we got to about nine o'clock at night
and I looked at my watch and I said, Neo,
so I've got this rule, and I got to cut
the phone conversation short now and I explained why, and
because he's as nerdy as me, he's like, I totally
get it. And then we just ended up talking I
think for another fifteen or twenty minutes, and then I'm like, Okay.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
We really have to go. Now this rule has been broken.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
But I think I just I knew after that phone
conversation that I think this guy's pretty special.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
I think this is going to be a good first date.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Tell me about your first date.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
I remember one of the I think like it was
kind of like a bit of a pet peeve where
I feel like I spent a lot of my life,
you know, in charge and in a leadership kind of
role as a business owner, and I really appreciated it
when the person that I was dating would take charge
and take some initiative in terms of what are we
doing for the first date or the second date. And
it's kind of owned some of those decisions because I
(31:11):
will naturally go to that role. But I really like
it when I'm relieved of that role. And I remember
Neo texted me and he said, so, I've been thinking
about what we could do for our first date, and
what do you reckon about going bowling?
Speaker 5 (31:23):
And I thought, oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Like he's you know, a bit like quirky and creative,
and he's put some thought into it, and he had
his reasons for suggesting bowling, and then we'd go for
a drink afterwards. So we went tenpin bowling, and I
remember that there was just really fun eighties music blasting
over the speakers, and you know, this like one or
two hour, you know, several games of bowling. It was
(31:48):
just it was fun and it was silly, and it
was lighthearted and it was flirty and you know that,
Like there was a bit of conversation, but there wasn't
pressure on the conversation, and then when we went to
a bar afterwards, it's like we just you know, dealt
in the conversation.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
I think the date ended at like two in the morning,
which I mean like my bedtimes ten.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I know you're alive. That's what I know about you.
You're alark. It's you're an early morning person.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
I am so like, I don't do two am, but
on this first date I did.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
So it was pretty obvious straight away that this was
special and different to those other fifty first dates very much.
And so did was it all sort of plane sailing
from there? I mean, we've already put a spoiler at
the beginning of this episode, which is that you are
getting married and Neo is the man you're getting married to.
(32:40):
But I guess what I want to know is, you know,
when you are falling in love in mid you've got
it's very different in a way from when you're young
and you're you know, you haven't got all the experiences
in the wisdom of what can go wrong, or how
sometimes things that start beautifully you can fall apart, or
(33:01):
sometimes people who charm the pants off you, maybe literally,
maybe figuratively, can then turn out to have some serious
red flags and that can make us all you know,
it can it can complicate things right because we're wiser
and more experienced, but that also can mean we're more guarded,
Like how was it was it immediate that you could
(33:21):
trust him that things were going to go well?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
How did it progress?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
There were two things that I think about that I
think served me really well in terms of navigating that.
The first is that I became really good through all
the dating that I did over those two years, just keeping.
Speaker 5 (33:39):
An eye on whether words.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Matched actions, because people can say a lot of good
words in dating, but often the actions or the behavior
won't align with those words. And what became really clear,
particularly in those first six months where you're falling in
love but you're also getting to know someone well and
certainly like you know in the three years that we've
(34:03):
been together, is that the words always matched the actions,
and for me, that was really important. The second thing
that was really helpful is that I had done maybe
I've been, you know, in and out of therapy for
a lot of my life. I think as a psychologist,
even though I'm an organizational psychologist not a clinical one,
(34:24):
I've always just really believed in the value of therapy,
and so, you know, I've had chunks of my life
where I've been very committed to therapy. And during those
two years of dating, I was seeing a therapist fortnightly,
sometimes weekly, and a lot of the discussion was around
relationships and dating and experiences that I was having. And
(34:47):
what I came to realize is, you know, and I
imagine you've probably had guests talk about attachment theory, and
what I learned about myself is that I have the
tendency to to have like an anxious attachment system like
that can get activated where I'm not sure where I stand,
(35:07):
but I think when you've got that anxious attachment system
being activated, what tends to happen when you're in those
early stages of dating and you're kind of not quite
sure where you stand, You're not quite sure if they
feel the same way. You can confuse that anxiety for
lust or god to be love.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
For butterflies and the yes, can I just ask you
on that? MEA did an episode of No Filter about
attachment theory with an expert, and we'll put a link
in the show notes. But is the ideal situation that
you and the person you pair with have the same
attachment type or that you have complementary attachment types.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
I would say one thing you don't want is you
don't want someone who who is kind of anxiously attached
matching with someone who is an avoidant where they avoid intimacy.
That like, if you look at any unhealthy relationship or
kind of dating situation, there's a high probability that that
(36:07):
pattern the problem is going on. But the thing is, like,
based on the person who you're with, and depending also
on what their attachment style is, that can bring out
a different attachment style in you. So what I felt
with Neo and what I think if I hadn't gone
through those two years of therapy, I would have misinterpreted.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
What was going on is.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
That I didn't like I felt butterflies, and I felt
excited to see him. But I didn't feel that anxiety
that I in past situations had mistaken for falling in love.
It just felt like I felt really safe, and I
don't think i'd experienced that with anyone that I dated.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
I knew exactly where I stood.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
And what happened with that experience with this, I guess
secure attachment that Neo offered me, and just this confidence
in where we stood, it meant that my anxious attachment
system wasn't activated, and so therefore it's like I was
just really present and I wasn't making up stories in
my mind, and I wasn't thinking that, Oh, because I
(37:15):
feel this way, it must mean that I'm madly in
love and.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
This is my person.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Instead, I knew it was coming from I guess like,
you know, a more secure place.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
Now.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
I've heard you and Neo interviewed, and it's clear that
you are. You have a lot of shared passions. You're
both really curious, really interested in experimenting with different ways
of living, different health things, different habits. Tell me a
little bit about how you knew that he was indeed
your person in this healthy way.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Oh gosh, I mean, there there were so many things.
I think one thing that we.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
Do that was a monthly ritual.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
We've sort of we've adapted the ritual slightly, but for
the first couple of years of the relationship. And I
think if some Neo's suggestion, but the fact that it
was Neo's suggestion, but it could have been mine's suggestion.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
I just don't I can't remember tells you a lot.
It's just like how.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Similar we are in terms of our mindedness. Is that
we decided that we would have a monthly meeting about
our relationship. We used to call it our monthly check in. Wow,
we still call we still call it our monthly check in.
And we devised a series of questions and I can
share some of them with.
Speaker 5 (38:26):
You, you know.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
Yeah, Yeah, that would basically be a chance where we
actually have time carved out, and typically it was on
a date night. You know, we would go out to
a restaurant or you know, we've got that space where
we're actually talking and reflecting about us and about how
we're behaving towards each other and about how we're feeling,
so you know, some of the questions like somewhere about
(38:51):
you know, acknowledging the positives. Like one question was what
are we appreciating most about the other person?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Which is so simple, but.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It's really powerful to actually sit down with your partner
once a month and here, what are they appreciating and
also think about that to them. You know, we also
would talk about what do we need from the other
person that we're not getting, which again just having that
space where a lot of times that's an uncomfortable conversation
to have, but if you've got this time carved out
(39:21):
where like there is space and the freedom to just go, okay,
this is the conversation that we're having, and it feels
much more comfortable to bring that up. We also like
reflect and go what have been our best connection moments
in the month just gone, and again being mindful, because
if we're mindful of those, then we can go how
can we recreate more of those those really powerful moments.
(39:42):
So they're just some examples, and so we did that
pretty religiously for a good two and a half years.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
And that shows obviously or compatibility because there would be
some people you could be dating who you'd say I
think we should do this, and they'd.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Be like, are you joking? That would be their worst nightmare.
They would be running out the door.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
So it's beautiful that you've found somebody who you know
that you found each other rather in this way. Tell
me a little bit too, for the listeners who are
dating and they've got kids.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
You obviously you have a daughter. She's ten. NEO doesn't
have kids, is.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
That right, correct? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
But being you and the very mindful person you are,
I know that you were did a lot of research
in the best way to introduce this person who you
knew was going to be around to your daughter. Tell
me what you learned about that and what worked and
what didn't.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
I think so midway through my whole dating experience, I
had this conversation with Michael kr Greg, who I guess is,
you know, probably one of the most well known psychologists.
I think he is a child psychologist or a clinical
psych Yeah. Yeah, and his advice really formed I guess
some of the principles that I had around how was
(40:54):
I going to integrate this person that I knew I
wanted to be my life partner into Frankie's world.
Speaker 5 (41:02):
My daughter and there.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Are a few things that he gave advice on. He said, ideally,
wait at least six months before introducing your new partner
to your daughter, and his reasons for that. And actually
Neo was the only person I dated that Frankie did
end up meeting, because obviously, if you go through a divorce,
I mean, that is an enormous amount of change and instability,
(41:27):
and I just wanted to protect her from any more
of that wherever that was in my control.
Speaker 5 (41:33):
And so I think I felt like six months was
long enough to.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
Go, Yeah, there is a very very high likelihood that
this person will be around for a very very long time,
and so I wanted to be really clear on that
before Frankie and Neo met. Neo and I actually spend
a lot of time like curating what would that first
meeting be, Like, A lot of thought went into that, like,
(41:57):
for example, we wanted it to be on Frankie's home ground,
because it could have been at Neo's place, it could
have been in a neutral place like a cafe or
a park, but we wanted it to be in the
place where Frankie felt safest, and that was at my home.
And then we also wanted kind of a fun activity.
So it wasn't this like intense. Okay, let's just sit
down and have a big long conversation, you know, over
(42:19):
a meal or something that you know that can be
maybe a bit intense. We thought, what's like a fun
activity that we can all do together, and so we
decided that we'd make pizza together. And so Neo went
to all this trouble to cook pizza dough from scratch
the night before, but the yeast was off and the
pizza dough failed, and so he was like stressing about
(42:40):
his pizza dough that has failed. Ended up going to
the supermarket and border base, and then we made pizza together,
and then I think we ended up watching a movie
together that afternoon.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
So a lot of thought went into that and just thinking.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
What is going to make this the best and most
positive and most comfortable experience for Frankie.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Were you really nervous because I imagine, without obviously wanting
to pry into Frankie's world at all, but I imagine
for you you're thinking, I really love this guy, like
I can see a future. But if she hates him,
or if she's not comfortable in his presence, or if
she's not. If this doesn't work, then this changes everything.
So were you really nervous about that meeting too?
Speaker 4 (43:19):
It's funny, I was more nervous about telling Frankie that
I'd been dating someone.
Speaker 5 (43:25):
Right, because she didn't know anything about my dating life.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
She didn't, you know, like I kept that very very
separate to my role as a mum.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
With Frankie.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
We know other friends of mine had made different choices,
and you know that they might have had older kids
where that actually show them the apps and get them
a bit involved.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
But Frankie had no idea.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
And I remember one night, like I you know, we
were sitting in bed talking, you know, before bedtime, and
I remember I was so nervous and I shared the
news with her and I said, I've you know, I've
met Salmon and we've been dating, and I'd really like
you to meet them.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
Would you like to meet them? And she like she
was all excited.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
She said, oh, does that mean you're getting married? And
I get to go to a wedding?
Speaker 5 (44:07):
And I think she was stabbed at the time.
Speaker 4 (44:09):
Maybe when I say no, it doesn't quite mean that,
but and anyway, so it went from there and then
I think about a week later we had the meeting.
So I was actually more nervous about that, just telling
her that like her mum, who she's only ever known
in relation to her dad, is now bringing another man
into this family system. So that was really nerve wracking.
(44:32):
But she was like really good and happy about that.
I actually wasn't nervous about how Frankie and Neo would
get along, because yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (44:42):
Just wasn't nervous about that.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
I knew, I think I just I just knew that
they would, and I knew like just what a beautiful,
kind of fun person Neo was, and just how caring
and thoughtful he was, And I just thought, man, like,
you know, I just think Frankie is, you know, just
the luckiest girl to have like this amazing male role model,
(45:04):
you know, in addition to her dad, like in her life.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Oh how gorgeous?
Speaker 3 (45:12):
After this break? How did Amantha know she was ready
to get married again? Stay right here, we'll be back
in a minute. We've got to get to the point
at which you have decided to get married again. So
tell me, was this always did you? After your divorce?
(45:33):
Did you ever think I'm not going to get married again?
Or is it something you were very keen to happen
or what and how did it come about?
Speaker 4 (45:40):
I would say I just had no attachment to it.
I thought, maybe I will, maybe I won't. It wasn't
something I was aspiring to. It wasn't something I was
aiming for. But I remember about two years into our relationship,
you know, we talked about this. We talked a lot
about our views on marriage. Neo felt pretty similarly to me,
and that, you know, he been married before, he'd been
(46:01):
married for nineteen years or with his last partner for
nineteen years, and you know, we could both give or
take marriage. And then I remember we'd been on the
Separate Bathrooms podcast together when I was promoting The Health Habit,
my last book, and they had introduced Neo as my husband,
and we just had like a bit of a laugh
(46:22):
about it. Afterwards I heard that, I was like, that's
a bit awkward, But because we talked about it so much,
it just wasn't awkward. But I can imagine it would
have been awkward for us for some people. But anyway,
it just we I remember we went on a walk
a little bit after we'd recorded that podcast episode, and
you know, I said like like where are you at,
(46:42):
Like what do you think about getting married? And we
just had this like walking conversation where we talked about
for both of us in a very similar way, our
views on marriage had changed, and we felt that it
was actually something that had started to feel important. And
I think also thinking about Frankie and the security that
(47:02):
she feels, I thought, you know, as a child, when
you've been through a divorce, I think there's something that
maybe feels like there's some stability when there is a marriage.
And you know, again like no judgment on anyone else's choices,
but it just felt right for us, and so we decided.
Then we sort of said, I think this is something
(47:24):
that we want to do. And I'm about six months
after that conversation, Neo proposed when we were on a holiday,
and so it was kind of it was absolutely beautiful,
but it wasn't a surprise because of that conversation. Gorgeous
And so you're getting married next year? Is this and
what will be different about this wedding?
Speaker 5 (47:45):
Ah, what will be different?
Speaker 4 (47:46):
Look, I mean my first wedding was pretty low key,
but this is it's a small wedding. It's just our
close friends and families, so about fifty people and we're
doing it.
Speaker 5 (47:56):
In our house.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Oh how gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Got like wonderful celebrant who used to be a pop
star in the eighties, and she's super fun, perfect, and
it's it's not overstated. It's small, it's intimate, it's meaningful,
it's it's kind of yeah, so happy you want it
to me?
Speaker 3 (48:13):
He looks so happy and Manthea, you're like, when you're
talking about it, you're just beaming.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's just gorgeous. It makes me very happy.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
But if someone is listening to this who maybe has
been through a relationship breakup and is thinking I'm never
going to meet him, I would like to like you.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I would because not everybody does. There are a lot
of women in mid who.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Are like I never want to repartner, I don't want
to look after anybody. I don't want to repeat any
of those things. I'm just going to live. That's which
is great. But if you, if like you, you're thinking
life is better shared, what's your best piece of advice
for how to handle that?
Speaker 4 (48:47):
I would say, get really clear on what you're looking
for and what you most what you won't compromise on.
I think the quality of your decisions when you're going
through a dating process where you are making literally thousands
of decisions. If you're using the apps, the more clear
you can be on what matters to you, I think,
(49:10):
the better your outcome will be.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
That's very good advice, Amantha. I love your love story.
I'm so happy for you and Neo. I'm so happy.
I can't wait to see your wedding pictures somewhere, and
thank you also for your wisdom.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
As always.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Look, I just love that conversation. Amantha is getting married
in March to Neo, and what I particular love about
that is, you know, my gran would have said, every
pot has its lid. If your pot is a little
bit different to other people's pots, that's okay. I love
how specific Amantha was. It's a wonderful story. But if
(49:54):
you are after more dating stories about midlife, then please
do listen to the episode I told you about it
Front with Catherine Mahoney.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
It's very funny.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
But also if you are in the throes of divorce
and you're going through the horrors of that, that can
be incredibly difficult, knock you around unbelievably. I want you
to go and listen to the episode we did with
Nicki Parkinson because it is raw and uplifting in a
way that we don't hear people talking about divorce very often.
As always, I want to thank you all mids for
(50:24):
being here with us for these big conversations that we're having.
Please jump on and follow us on Instagram. DM me
with any ideas about the show. You'll find me on
Instagram too, at Waynwright, Holly, and I'd love to hear
your thoughts. Don't forget to give us a rating horror review.
It really helps other people find MID. And of course
I want to offer a massive thank you to our team.
(50:44):
The MID team is executive producer nam A Brown, senior
producer Grace Ruvre, and producer Charlie Blackman. And we've had
sound design and production by Jacob Brown. And I'm your host,
Holly Wainwright and I'll see you back here next week
for more Mid
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.