December 25, 2025 • 24 mins
This summer we're curating your playlist with some of our favourite episodes of BIZ - our podcast that gets your work life sorted!
This episode will completely transform how you'll think about managing your time, as we deep dive into the often misunderstood practice of time blocking with productivity expert Deb Ho.
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by your to-do list or struggled to focus on deep work; join Em Vernem, Michelle Battersby and Soph Hirst to learn practical solutions that don't require you to become a "productivity robot".
And if you’re time blocking skeptic or have tried and abandoned it before, this episode will give you the clear, precise direction you need to transform your workday. Trust us, you’ll soon understand why you need to be spending more time in your calendar than your inbox!
Check out Deb Ho’s amazing Time Block Planner and other Productivity Resources.
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HOSTS: Michelle Battersby, Soph Hirst and Em Vernem
EXEC PRODUCER: Kimberly Braddish
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to another Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We
have recorded this podcast on the Gatagoul people of the
Eur Nation. We pay our respects to their elders past
and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Hello m Vernon here and I am the host of BIZ,
a podcast that gets your work Live Sorted. And this
summer we are curating your playlist with unmissable episodes full
of hacks, tips and tricks from our top expert guests
and hosts. And if you're looking for more to listen to,
every Mama Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right
across our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
(01:04):
there is something for everyone. There is a link in
our show notes. Hello and welcome to BIZ Your Work
Life Sorted. I'm m Vernon and today we're diving into
something I've personally struggled with, time blocking. So you know
that feeling when you look at your to do list
and it feels completely overwhelming, or when you're trying to
(01:27):
focus on deep work but keep getting distracted by slack
messages or emails. I have been there so many times,
and I'm actually supposed to be deep into writing an
article right now, but here I am instead talking to you,
So please don't tell my boss. So all of these
chaotic habits of mine have made me realize that I
should probably give this time blocking thing another shot and
(01:47):
find out if I'm actually doing it properly. Today, Missions
sof are breaking down everything you need to know about
time blocking, what it actually is, and how to do
it without feeling like a productivity robot, and most importantly,
how to make it work for your life and schedule.
Plus they are joined by productivity expert and artist Debo,
who completely changed my perspective on how we think about
(02:10):
organizing our time. Trust me, if you've ever felt like
you're drowning in tasks or struggling to find focus time,
this episode is for you.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Michelle, what's your vibe on time blocking? I've heard of
it and.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I felt like maybe it's something I should be doing,
you know. I feel like maybe it's something we felt
like we all need to try, or like we're missing
out on something if we're not doing it.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, I'm kind of with you.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Actually, I had heard about it for a long time
because a lot of the engineers at Google did it,
and I was always like, yeah, I'm not a productivity person.
Like honestly, the word productivity gives me anxiety, Like I
hate it.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm actually I'm a really slow operator.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
So I'm that person where someone's standing over your shoulder
and they're like by your computer and they're like, he
will just pull it up and do it now, just
like go to the folder and.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Do the thing, and I'm like, don't watch me. I'm
really slow.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
So like, I'm not a productivity person. But I did
notice this change that happened where I just did one
thing and that was I started spending more time in
my calendar than I started spending in my inbox and
there was just a massive change to how I operated
at work. And really it came down to I started
(03:16):
time blocking. But I will say it took me a
few gos and I still don't think I actually do
it right.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I don't even know if there is a right or
wrong way.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
I guess that's what this episode is about, a little bit,
what do other people think? Like you went out on
social and ask people.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Yeah, I was curious about this because I would put
myself in the camp of I've tried it and I
couldn't commit to it, like it seemed a bit too
hard to me, or like I needed to spend a
lot of time sitting down and planning things. Yeah, and
do that over and over, which is just not something
I can maintain. So I asked on my socials if
(03:50):
you've tried time blocking, and it's yes, I live by it,
tried it, couldn't commit, never tried it, don't know what
it is. And the winner here was thirty eight percent
of people said tried it and couldn't commit, and then
live By It was second with twenty six percent never
tried it, twenty one percent and fifteen percent don't know
what it is.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, so I think this episode will.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Be I am that person of the majority. So yeah,
definitely tried it. Felt like it didn't work for me.
I actually tried it several times before I was able
to get it to Dick, but I still was thinking
that I'm not doing it right and there's something that
I'm missing. So it's kind of why we wanted to
do this episode and why we wanted to go out
and speak to an expert. So I went out and
spoke to deb Hoe and she is an artist and
(04:33):
a productivity expert, which I think sounds like an oxymoron,
like how can you be both those things? Creative and organized?
But she breaks down exactly what time blocking is. And
the interesting part I thought about this interview Michelle that
we're going to play in a second. She actually thinks
about time blocking not just about how it helps you
with work, but how it helps you with your whole life,
(04:55):
which I thought was really interesting. And then we're going
to come back at the end and I'm going to
give my five really practical tips for how I was
able to actually get it to stick for me.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Amazing.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
So there's two camps of people when it comes to
time blocking. The people who are like, I've heard of it,
but I actually have no idea what it is. And
then the second camp of people who have heard of
it and think they're doing it, but maybe don't feel
like they're doing it properly.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And I feel like I'm in that second camp. So
to just kind of clear.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
Up the first question, what is time blocking and why
should we even be doing it?
Speaker 6 (05:41):
Time blocking is a really simple method where you just
assign tasks to a timeslot during the day. So for example,
instead of writing your basic to do list like reading, writing,
doing the dishes, you actually assign those tasks to a
specific time. So you would do like nine am is
your reading time, and then ten am is your writing time,
(06:02):
and washing the dishes is a five PM or something
like that. So it really is just adding a time
slot to those specific tasks.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
How do you actually decide what tasks you're doing when
you know, is there a best practice we're meant to
be following in terms of where we're putting tasks?
Speaker 6 (06:17):
I think it really comes down to like trial and error,
to be honest, Like, unfortunately a lot of people don't
find time blocking that useful because they're just like, oh,
a whole block of the days just work and that's it.
But generally I find that it really comes down to
what you do personally. For example, like I can't exercise
at night, so I will always put it in the morning,
(06:38):
and I don't read after like nine am.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I only read in the morning, so I always put
it in the morning as well.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
So it really comes down to like what works with
your personal lifestyle. Even if people say wake up before am,
like that's just not really viable for everyone. So it's
something that really comes down to trial and error. You'll
pull a few things that will be your dream life,
but then you'll realize really quickly that your life gets
in the way, and then you'll have to like kind
of move things around and test it.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
Okay, So, because this is the kind of trap that
I have been in before, I wanted to try time blocking,
and then I tried it, and then I was like,
it doesn't actually work for me. Then I had this
sort of moment where I stopped and thought about what
are the tasks that I'm doing and when is the
best time of myne day to do those tasts.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So that was a big light bulb moment for me.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
For the listener at home who's never done this before
and maybe tried it and it didn't work, how do
you actually get started in terms of deciding what are
the better times of day to do certain things?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Is there any kind of tips that you have for that.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
My main tip is to number one, be very forgiving,
because there'll be a process and I think it really
is based on your energy levels, so you would naturally
do things that are harder at the beginning of the day,
like For me, cleaning through my personal email is like
very very easy, So I tend to do it at
night when I'm watching TV because I can kind of
(07:56):
like splice it with like low energy activities. But if
something takes a little bit more effort, I would push
it earlier to the morning. I would also consider like
your work day as well. Like some people can go
to the gym at like eleven am, which is I
think crazy because it's in the mid of work day
and you have like meetings and stuff. But like some
people really can do like an early lunch and do
(08:18):
their gym routine then and then go straight in to
any kind of meeting afterwards. So I think it really
depends on your own temperament and whether or not this
is something that you can handle. The thing is always
just start really really easy and slot it in. Try
it for like a couple of weeks and test it
to see how viable it is in your life. Just
keep adding things very slowly. I wouldn't rush into anything.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
That sounds good.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
I remember the big aha for me was when I
realized that my brain is different in the morning to
the evening, and I can't actually concentrate on deep work
in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
So where I used to put all.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
My meetings in the morning and then I'd be kind
of left to work in the afternoon, I completely flipped
it and I started blocking out my mornings for actual
work and time blocking all my meetings in the afternoon.
And that kind of kept my brain engaging anyway, because
I was talking to someone. So that was a really
big lab moment for me in terms of planning out
those blocks. So deb someone who's just getting started, they
(09:14):
have an open calendar, or maybe they've got a few
things that they're already in that calendar in terms of
assigned work meetings and things like that, Can you actually
break down the step by step process someone should go
through to time block their week.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Generally, I would either go digital or paper. I personally
like writing things down, so I would just take a
simple piece of paper blank piece of paper, or you
can use a diary or anything like that. What I
would generally do is write major tasks that you want
to get done during the day all the week as
a list. So first start with a regular to do list,
which I think a lot of people have, and then
(09:48):
kind of consider what your priorities are for the week.
So generally I pick three maximum. I try to do
two because I don't want to like overwhelm myself, but
it's maximum three. Once you kind of consider that, either
in your calendar or on the paper you kind of
write down if you're doing the day, you write down
time slots from top to bottom, so like when your
day starts, which some people they want to start from
(10:09):
nine am, so nine am, ten am, eleven am, twelve pm,
one pm, all the way down to whenever you want
to stop your day. And if it's a week thing,
then you would just do Monday to Friday across the
top and then do like morning, afternoon, night slots going
down sin it's more like a table, and then at
that point you sort of have like almost like a
(10:30):
grid of these time slots that you want to put
tasks into. You just consider how long things will take,
so like washing the dishes would probably take half an hour,
so you can give yourself a half an hour time
slot at like five pm, or like after you've eaten,
so eight pm. Then you assign times like writing might
take two hours, so you put that task at like
(10:53):
eleven am, and then you just fill out the time
and make sure you put breaks in between as well,
make sure you like slot in lunch and then have
all the other like things you got to do during
the day there as well.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Got it.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
So if you kind of step back and you look
at your your full day or your full week, should
every slot of time actually be scheduled?
Speaker 6 (11:11):
I would recommend not to. I would just guarantee like
certain slots to be put in because you need time
to be kind of flexy.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And then as you move.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
Through the week or move through the day, you realize
that things will change, like things will pop up, and
if everything's like super rigid, you can't really move anything around,
and I think that causes more stress than what the
purpose of it is to alleviate anxiety about tasks. So
I would keep as much open as possible and also
give yourself off the time as well. You actually realize
(11:42):
when you time block that there's so much time when
you're not like stressing about when to do things. If
you just say you'll do it, there's actually so much
time to do things. I feel like it's been a
very long time since I've heard someone say there's so
much time to do things.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
I love that, Thank you. I already feel more calm
talking to you. How about the traps people get into,
So the people who think they've tried this and they're like,
it didn't actually work for me.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
What are some of the things that people actually get wrong.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
The main thing that people get wrong about time blocking
is just getting too stressed about making everything perfect and
creating this really rigid schedule. And I myself am such
a big perfectionist and I want things to go exactly
as I plan them. But obviously that never happens, and
you kind of realize that with age, you're like, you.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Can't control everything.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
The biggest mistake really is that people don't do something
and then they feel like they're failure off for not
doing it, And I think that's totally not the case.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I think it's a trial and.
Speaker 6 (12:38):
Error, as I said a bit earlier, and I think
generally people do have to also assess whether or not
the task that they want to do is important to them.
Like two years ago, I tried to put reading in
my time block for the longest time, and I never
did it. I'd always be like, I've got other things
to do, it's not important. Then I feel guilty about
(12:58):
skipping it. But then I realized that reading was just
not important for me at that time, and I just
let go of that and I was like, I'll go
back to it when I have the time to do it.
And now I read like almost every day because I
I want to do it. Personally, I think people try
to force things that they want to do in the
day when actually it goes against their values or it
goes against their lifestyle. And that's more of a deeper
(13:19):
thing than just like time blocking as a method. It
really is like you have to look within yourself. That
sounds so cheesy, but like there are things that people
gravitate towards because they want to do it, and there's
things that they procrastinate for years and years because they
actually shouldn't be doing it. Like exercising is like a
really good example. Like people say I need to go
to the gym, but they never do. For me, I
(13:41):
don't go to the gym because I assumming. I do tennis,
I walk every day, and that's the easiest way for
me to exercise.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And it really is less.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
About the time blocking and more about what you have
the motivation to do in general outside of time blocking.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
That's a really important point.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
I think it's not actually going to work to get
you to do something by just putting it in your
calendar and having a reminder set up. So it's really
about time blocking is actually stopping and thinking and deciding
what do I want to do on my day, allocating
a realistic amount of time to do those things, and
then trying to reduce some of the friction.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So one thing I.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
Think is really important for people to think about when
they're doing their time block planning is reducing the context
switching time. How do you actually order and group some
of your tasks together to remove some friction and deb
Can you tell us what context switching is?
Speaker 6 (14:31):
Context switching really is just moving from a different task
to another that is so significantly different it takes your brain.
Like I think I read somewhere, I'm not sure if
it's accurate, but about twenty three minutes of your time
to really emotionally move from one task to the other.
For me, once I figured that out, or like when
someone told me that, that really blew my mind because
(14:52):
you kind of waste that time easing into the next task.
So generally it's best to group similar tasks together, so
you want to have all your meanings kind of in
the morning or in the afternoons, so that way you
have focused time in writing or like doing emails all
in one go. Generally, like emails and admin is like
one kind of group of tasks, and then like writing
(15:13):
or like creative work is like one type of task
as well, so you want to group those altogether so
your energy levels are kind of similar for that type
of task. Personally, I find it really important to smush
everything together to make sure that everything is kind of
flowing with each other, and then I have.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
A break and then I move on to a different
type of task. For the people listening, this is it right.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
This is why because you know, you might think I
can plan some stuff in a calendar that's not really
going to change my life. But the point is that
because if you don't plan things, you're actually wasting so
much time as you switch between different projects and contexts
and tasks.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And if you are able to do a little.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Bit of forward planning, you can actually reduce that context
switching time and you can get a lot of time
back in your day and also just helps your brain
work better. A lot of people listening work in a
sort of office corporate environment, and you say you're working
on three different projects. I've seen a lot of leaders
try to have specific days for different projects, and so
your head's just really in this one project in that day,
and then as much as possible you can try and
(16:12):
work on the other project and book the meetings around
for that next day as well.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
One trap that a lot of us get into is
that if you work.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
In an office, your times not necessarily your own. There's
people putting meetings in, There's people pnging you on Slack
and they're like, can you do this thing? Do you
have any any chips for how people can protect their
blocks of time that they're actually scheduled.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
It really is like setting probably a no meeting Friday,
which we do at work, which is pretty good, and
everyone really honors that, and we kind of make sure
everything is like in my Thursday, I think setting a
time during the week or even like an afternoon. A
lot of my workmates they put in that do not
schedule time period, which like really cannot budge unless it's
(16:54):
like so important, and I think everyone really respects that.
I think it's really like having conversations with the people
around you and also having like more understanding across the
whole team that the afternoon or a certain time of
date is protected for, just like quiet time.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
The other thing is just making sure you're putting in
your start and end times in your calendar, so like
at this time I'm commuting, I don't take calls or
respond to messages, and then also including some of your
boundaries in your signature as well. I know a lot
of people will say, you know, I only check emails
twice a day, and they'll even block those in their
calendar that says, you know, this is the time I'm
checking emails and responding to slack messages.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
These times do not disturb.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Yeah, it's about having boundaries and try to be consistent,
but then having.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
A little bit of flexibility as well.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Yeah, because there'll be times when like things are like
have to be moved around and it'll be good like
to have that flexibility. But in general, I think, like
across the whole team, it's generally very like much agreed
that there are certain times that like cannot be touched.
Having that freedom in general, like across the whole workplace,
(17:56):
just makes people want to be flexible when the time
requires it.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
So I will just say everyone's jobs are different, right,
and we are not saying that time blocking is going
to work for everyone, And a lot of people have
the type of job where their day is just not
their own. If you don't plan your day, other people's
priorities will plan your day for you. So it's just
about getting on the front foot with your time, which
is so precious. So if you can just do a
little bit of planning, you can get on the front foot.
(18:32):
And it's actually I've found very anxiety reducing to know
that you're getting through things. I'll share some tips in
a minute, but I've actually found the whole process. It
feels like more work, but it actually can if you
stick with it, reduce your anxiety about time and work.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I think what I kind of like about this is
I don't think I'm the kind of person that will
ever actually time block, but I like what it stands for.
I think sprinkling a bit of the foundations of time
blocking into how you do your job if you're not
the kind of person who's going to time block, is
a good way to approach just being focused and intentioned
(19:12):
about your day.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Totally, because I think for a lot of us, the
idea of time blocking every minute of your day just
sounds awful, like when is the time for impromptu conversations
and having fun things like that? So yeah, yeah, definitely
with you on that.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
One thing I loved when you were talking was around
fitting things into your lifestyle, and I think you touched
on like when is the best time of day to
do certain tasks? And I think if you're maybe more
in my camp, which might be the light touch time
blocking camp. Two questions that I think could be good
for people to ask themselves when working out, like when
(19:46):
does your brain work best? Is asking yourself when do
you procrastinate the hardest? Like when do tasks feel hard?
And that really shouldn't be the time of day that
you're trying to do deep work or really get into
the weeds of certain things. And then when do things
feel effortless? And that should really be a clue for
your prime time. I know I'm a morning person because
(20:10):
things just feel easier for me. I know, my brain
completely bombs out at three pm like I'm done, my
day's done.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
The same oh my god saying, But some people that's
they're picking up My boss at Google, that's exactly when
his primetime was kind of thing. Yeah, Yeah, that's actually
my first tip. So know what time of day works
best for you, and also days of the week as well,
So that's a really big thing, like know when your
deep work is best and make sure.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
You're blocking that.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
So I actually connected this idea of know what time
of day is where you focus best. I've connected that
to an idea that you shared in our productivity episode,
and it's actually I don't always know the exact task
that I'm going to be doing, but I have a
focus block. As much as possible, I try to have
focus blocks in the morning and then I will sit
there and ask myself what's making me feel most uncomfortable today,
(20:59):
and that will be the thing that I actually go
and then do in that time. Also days of the week.
If you are going into the office on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
for example, I'm working from home Monday Friday, You're going
to be doing different things in the office versus at home,
so you want to prioritize a lot more in person
time and meetings and deep work is probably going to be.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
More on the Monday and Friday.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
Yeah. The second thing that really changed it for me
was this, if someone asked you to do something like
someone says, hey, can you present in the team meeting
next week? Instead of just adding it to a to
do list, I would instantly open up my calendar and say,
I think that's going to take me like three forty
five minute blocks to do, and I would just instantly
block the time up until that presentation next week, and
(21:41):
then I would dump any kind of initial thoughts that
I had into the first calendar block. It just reduced
the anxiety for me because then I know if I
just stick to these blocks, I know I'm going to
get it done. Once you feel the positive feelings of like,
oh hey that actually works, it helps you stick with
the time blocking.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
You're selling it to me, I love it. These are
three little, really quick ones. You're going to hate this one.
Shall You do need a block.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
To plan your blocks, So like I do have a
little block on a Friday where I actually try to
plan out the blocks for the wak ahead. Honestly, sometimes
I skip it. I'm like I'm having a margarita and
I'm not doing that, But then I kind of, yeah,
I do have to do it the next week. So yeah,
if you are going to get this to work for it,
you it does help if you actually have some planning time.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
My favorite one out of all of the tips is
my task pebbles block. So this is just where I.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Have two of them a week, and I just have
a calendar block that says task pebbles, And as things
come up throughout the week, those little things that you
don't have time for, I just drop them into the
description and save it, and then when I've got time,
I'll jump in. Sometimes if I've got spare time in
between meetings, I'll jump in and pull a task pebble,
or other times I'll just make sure i'm smashing those.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Out all in one go.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Such a good tip, and then the last point is
just to trust the process a little bit. So it
did take me quite a few gos. It actually so
helps sometimes to have an end point to something too,
So like you can maybe work on something for two
or three hours, but it's not actually healthy for your brain.
So be like, I'm going to do forty five minutes
on that task and then I'm going to stop. That
sense of progress that you get from being like okay,
(23:11):
that is now complete, and I can go and do
something else, or i can.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Have a break. It just makes it feel pretty good.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
You're kind of like setting yourself up for failure if
you start and you're time blocking and popping things in
that actually aren't really a priority to you, or aren't
things that you truly care about and want to do,
like Deb's example of reading and then not doing exactly okay,
So how someone could start this tomorrow? They need to
take away from your book and plan to plan, and
(23:41):
do that at a time when you feel most motivated.
So for me, it would probably be a Monday morning.
And then I think it's best for people to start
broad like maybe you have your deep work zone, maybe
you've got a shallow work zone, which is like your
task pebbles. Maybe you've got a personal zone, and that's
just how you begin, and once you nail that, you
(24:02):
can start to get more granular. But use those three
buckets to begin with as your to do lists. Stop
putting you to do list in the notes section of
your phone or on a sticky note on your laptop,
and get them into those calendar invites.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Get it into your calendar, and get it into your calendar.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Make it sound so easy, exactly, love it done.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
So dare hit us with some hard facts, especially when
she said there's actually so much time to do things
when you're not stressing about when to do them. As
someone who's attempted time blocking multiple times and failed, hearing
that was honestly revolutionary to me. If you're feeling inspired
to give time blocking a try, head to our bus newsletter.
(24:47):
This week, we've created a super simple template to help
get you started, and don't forget to follow us on
Instagram at biz Buy Mama Mia, where we'll be sharing
some practical tips throughout the entire week. Remember it's not
about being perfect, it's about finding what works for you.
I'll catch you in Thursday's Biz Inbox episode, where we'll
be answering all of your career questions. Bye,
You're listening to another Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We
have recorded this podcast on the Gatagoul people of the
Eur Nation. We pay our respects to their elders past
and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Hello m Vernon here and I am the host of BIZ,
a podcast that gets your work Live Sorted. And this
summer we are curating your playlist with unmissable episodes full
of hacks, tips and tricks from our top expert guests
and hosts. And if you're looking for more to listen to,
every Mama Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right
across our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
(01:04):
there is something for everyone. There is a link in
our show notes. Hello and welcome to BIZ Your Work
Life Sorted. I'm m Vernon and today we're diving into
something I've personally struggled with, time blocking. So you know
that feeling when you look at your to do list
and it feels completely overwhelming, or when you're trying to
(01:27):
focus on deep work but keep getting distracted by slack
messages or emails. I have been there so many times,
and I'm actually supposed to be deep into writing an
article right now, but here I am instead talking to you,
So please don't tell my boss. So all of these
chaotic habits of mine have made me realize that I
should probably give this time blocking thing another shot and
(01:47):
find out if I'm actually doing it properly. Today, Missions
sof are breaking down everything you need to know about
time blocking, what it actually is, and how to do
it without feeling like a productivity robot, and most importantly,
how to make it work for your life and schedule.
Plus they are joined by productivity expert and artist Debo,
who completely changed my perspective on how we think about
(02:10):
organizing our time. Trust me, if you've ever felt like
you're drowning in tasks or struggling to find focus time,
this episode is for you.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Michelle, what's your vibe on time blocking? I've heard of
it and.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I felt like maybe it's something I should be doing,
you know. I feel like maybe it's something we felt
like we all need to try, or like we're missing
out on something if we're not doing it.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, I'm kind of with you.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Actually, I had heard about it for a long time
because a lot of the engineers at Google did it,
and I was always like, yeah, I'm not a productivity person.
Like honestly, the word productivity gives me anxiety, Like I
hate it.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm actually I'm a really slow operator.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
So I'm that person where someone's standing over your shoulder
and they're like by your computer and they're like, he
will just pull it up and do it now, just
like go to the folder and.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Do the thing, and I'm like, don't watch me. I'm
really slow.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
So like, I'm not a productivity person. But I did
notice this change that happened where I just did one
thing and that was I started spending more time in
my calendar than I started spending in my inbox and
there was just a massive change to how I operated
at work. And really it came down to I started
(03:16):
time blocking. But I will say it took me a
few gos and I still don't think I actually do
it right.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
I don't even know if there is a right or
wrong way.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
I guess that's what this episode is about, a little bit,
what do other people think? Like you went out on
social and ask people.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Yeah, I was curious about this because I would put
myself in the camp of I've tried it and I
couldn't commit to it, like it seemed a bit too
hard to me, or like I needed to spend a
lot of time sitting down and planning things. Yeah, and
do that over and over, which is just not something
I can maintain. So I asked on my socials if
(03:50):
you've tried time blocking, and it's yes, I live by it,
tried it, couldn't commit, never tried it, don't know what
it is. And the winner here was thirty eight percent
of people said tried it and couldn't commit, and then
live By It was second with twenty six percent never
tried it, twenty one percent and fifteen percent don't know
what it is.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, so I think this episode will.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Be I am that person of the majority. So yeah,
definitely tried it. Felt like it didn't work for me.
I actually tried it several times before I was able
to get it to Dick, but I still was thinking
that I'm not doing it right and there's something that
I'm missing. So it's kind of why we wanted to
do this episode and why we wanted to go out
and speak to an expert. So I went out and
spoke to deb Hoe and she is an artist and
(04:33):
a productivity expert, which I think sounds like an oxymoron,
like how can you be both those things? Creative and organized?
But she breaks down exactly what time blocking is. And
the interesting part I thought about this interview Michelle that
we're going to play in a second. She actually thinks
about time blocking not just about how it helps you
with work, but how it helps you with your whole life,
(04:55):
which I thought was really interesting. And then we're going
to come back at the end and I'm going to
give my five really practical tips for how I was
able to actually get it to stick for me.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Amazing.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
So there's two camps of people when it comes to
time blocking. The people who are like, I've heard of it,
but I actually have no idea what it is. And
then the second camp of people who have heard of
it and think they're doing it, but maybe don't feel
like they're doing it properly.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And I feel like I'm in that second camp. So
to just kind of clear.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
Up the first question, what is time blocking and why
should we even be doing it?
Speaker 6 (05:41):
Time blocking is a really simple method where you just
assign tasks to a timeslot during the day. So for example,
instead of writing your basic to do list like reading, writing,
doing the dishes, you actually assign those tasks to a
specific time. So you would do like nine am is
your reading time, and then ten am is your writing time,
(06:02):
and washing the dishes is a five PM or something
like that. So it really is just adding a time
slot to those specific tasks.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
How do you actually decide what tasks you're doing when
you know, is there a best practice we're meant to
be following in terms of where we're putting tasks?
Speaker 6 (06:17):
I think it really comes down to like trial and error,
to be honest, Like, unfortunately a lot of people don't
find time blocking that useful because they're just like, oh,
a whole block of the days just work and that's it.
But generally I find that it really comes down to
what you do personally. For example, like I can't exercise
at night, so I will always put it in the morning,
(06:38):
and I don't read after like nine am.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I only read in the morning, so I always put
it in the morning as well.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
So it really comes down to like what works with
your personal lifestyle. Even if people say wake up before am,
like that's just not really viable for everyone. So it's
something that really comes down to trial and error. You'll
pull a few things that will be your dream life,
but then you'll realize really quickly that your life gets
in the way, and then you'll have to like kind
of move things around and test it.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
Okay, So, because this is the kind of trap that
I have been in before, I wanted to try time blocking,
and then I tried it, and then I was like,
it doesn't actually work for me. Then I had this
sort of moment where I stopped and thought about what
are the tasks that I'm doing and when is the
best time of myne day to do those tasts.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So that was a big light bulb moment for me.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
For the listener at home who's never done this before
and maybe tried it and it didn't work, how do
you actually get started in terms of deciding what are
the better times of day to do certain things?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Is there any kind of tips that you have for that.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
My main tip is to number one, be very forgiving,
because there'll be a process and I think it really
is based on your energy levels, so you would naturally
do things that are harder at the beginning of the day,
like For me, cleaning through my personal email is like
very very easy, So I tend to do it at
night when I'm watching TV because I can kind of
(07:56):
like splice it with like low energy activities. But if
something takes a little bit more effort, I would push
it earlier to the morning. I would also consider like
your work day as well. Like some people can go
to the gym at like eleven am, which is I
think crazy because it's in the mid of work day
and you have like meetings and stuff. But like some
people really can do like an early lunch and do
(08:18):
their gym routine then and then go straight in to
any kind of meeting afterwards. So I think it really
depends on your own temperament and whether or not this
is something that you can handle. The thing is always
just start really really easy and slot it in. Try
it for like a couple of weeks and test it
to see how viable it is in your life. Just
keep adding things very slowly. I wouldn't rush into anything.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
That sounds good.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
I remember the big aha for me was when I
realized that my brain is different in the morning to
the evening, and I can't actually concentrate on deep work
in the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
So where I used to put all.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
My meetings in the morning and then I'd be kind
of left to work in the afternoon, I completely flipped
it and I started blocking out my mornings for actual
work and time blocking all my meetings in the afternoon.
And that kind of kept my brain engaging anyway, because
I was talking to someone. So that was a really
big lab moment for me in terms of planning out
those blocks. So deb someone who's just getting started, they
(09:14):
have an open calendar, or maybe they've got a few
things that they're already in that calendar in terms of
assigned work meetings and things like that, Can you actually
break down the step by step process someone should go
through to time block their week.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Generally, I would either go digital or paper. I personally
like writing things down, so I would just take a
simple piece of paper blank piece of paper, or you
can use a diary or anything like that. What I
would generally do is write major tasks that you want
to get done during the day all the week as
a list. So first start with a regular to do list,
which I think a lot of people have, and then
(09:48):
kind of consider what your priorities are for the week.
So generally I pick three maximum. I try to do
two because I don't want to like overwhelm myself, but
it's maximum three. Once you kind of consider that, either
in your calendar or on the paper you kind of
write down if you're doing the day, you write down
time slots from top to bottom, so like when your
day starts, which some people they want to start from
(10:09):
nine am, so nine am, ten am, eleven am, twelve pm,
one pm, all the way down to whenever you want
to stop your day. And if it's a week thing,
then you would just do Monday to Friday across the
top and then do like morning, afternoon, night slots going
down sin it's more like a table, and then at
that point you sort of have like almost like a
(10:30):
grid of these time slots that you want to put
tasks into. You just consider how long things will take,
so like washing the dishes would probably take half an hour,
so you can give yourself a half an hour time
slot at like five pm, or like after you've eaten,
so eight pm. Then you assign times like writing might
take two hours, so you put that task at like
(10:53):
eleven am, and then you just fill out the time
and make sure you put breaks in between as well,
make sure you like slot in lunch and then have
all the other like things you got to do during
the day there as well.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Got it.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
So if you kind of step back and you look
at your your full day or your full week, should
every slot of time actually be scheduled?
Speaker 6 (11:11):
I would recommend not to. I would just guarantee like
certain slots to be put in because you need time
to be kind of flexy.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And then as you move.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
Through the week or move through the day, you realize
that things will change, like things will pop up, and
if everything's like super rigid, you can't really move anything around,
and I think that causes more stress than what the
purpose of it is to alleviate anxiety about tasks. So
I would keep as much open as possible and also
give yourself off the time as well. You actually realize
(11:42):
when you time block that there's so much time when
you're not like stressing about when to do things. If
you just say you'll do it, there's actually so much
time to do things. I feel like it's been a
very long time since I've heard someone say there's so
much time to do things.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
I love that, Thank you. I already feel more calm
talking to you. How about the traps people get into,
So the people who think they've tried this and they're like,
it didn't actually work for me.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
What are some of the things that people actually get wrong.
Speaker 6 (12:08):
The main thing that people get wrong about time blocking
is just getting too stressed about making everything perfect and
creating this really rigid schedule. And I myself am such
a big perfectionist and I want things to go exactly
as I plan them. But obviously that never happens, and
you kind of realize that with age, you're like, you.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Can't control everything.
Speaker 6 (12:28):
The biggest mistake really is that people don't do something
and then they feel like they're failure off for not
doing it, And I think that's totally not the case.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I think it's a trial and.
Speaker 6 (12:38):
Error, as I said a bit earlier, and I think
generally people do have to also assess whether or not
the task that they want to do is important to them.
Like two years ago, I tried to put reading in
my time block for the longest time, and I never
did it. I'd always be like, I've got other things
to do, it's not important. Then I feel guilty about
(12:58):
skipping it. But then I realized that reading was just
not important for me at that time, and I just
let go of that and I was like, I'll go
back to it when I have the time to do it.
And now I read like almost every day because I
I want to do it. Personally, I think people try
to force things that they want to do in the
day when actually it goes against their values or it
goes against their lifestyle. And that's more of a deeper
(13:19):
thing than just like time blocking as a method. It
really is like you have to look within yourself. That
sounds so cheesy, but like there are things that people
gravitate towards because they want to do it, and there's
things that they procrastinate for years and years because they
actually shouldn't be doing it. Like exercising is like a
really good example. Like people say I need to go
to the gym, but they never do. For me, I
(13:41):
don't go to the gym because I assumming. I do tennis,
I walk every day, and that's the easiest way for
me to exercise.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And it really is less.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
About the time blocking and more about what you have
the motivation to do in general outside of time blocking.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
That's a really important point.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
I think it's not actually going to work to get
you to do something by just putting it in your
calendar and having a reminder set up. So it's really
about time blocking is actually stopping and thinking and deciding
what do I want to do on my day, allocating
a realistic amount of time to do those things, and
then trying to reduce some of the friction.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So one thing I.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
Think is really important for people to think about when
they're doing their time block planning is reducing the context
switching time. How do you actually order and group some
of your tasks together to remove some friction and deb
Can you tell us what context switching is?
Speaker 6 (14:31):
Context switching really is just moving from a different task
to another that is so significantly different it takes your brain.
Like I think I read somewhere, I'm not sure if
it's accurate, but about twenty three minutes of your time
to really emotionally move from one task to the other.
For me, once I figured that out, or like when
someone told me that, that really blew my mind because
(14:52):
you kind of waste that time easing into the next task.
So generally it's best to group similar tasks together, so
you want to have all your meanings kind of in
the morning or in the afternoons, so that way you
have focused time in writing or like doing emails all
in one go. Generally, like emails and admin is like
one kind of group of tasks, and then like writing
(15:13):
or like creative work is like one type of task
as well, so you want to group those altogether so
your energy levels are kind of similar for that type
of task. Personally, I find it really important to smush
everything together to make sure that everything is kind of
flowing with each other, and then I have.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
A break and then I move on to a different
type of task. For the people listening, this is it right.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
This is why because you know, you might think I
can plan some stuff in a calendar that's not really
going to change my life. But the point is that
because if you don't plan things, you're actually wasting so
much time as you switch between different projects and contexts
and tasks.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
And if you are able to do a little.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Bit of forward planning, you can actually reduce that context
switching time and you can get a lot of time
back in your day and also just helps your brain
work better. A lot of people listening work in a
sort of office corporate environment, and you say you're working
on three different projects. I've seen a lot of leaders
try to have specific days for different projects, and so
your head's just really in this one project in that day,
and then as much as possible you can try and
(16:12):
work on the other project and book the meetings around
for that next day as well.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
One trap that a lot of us get into is
that if you work.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
In an office, your times not necessarily your own. There's
people putting meetings in, There's people pnging you on Slack
and they're like, can you do this thing? Do you
have any any chips for how people can protect their
blocks of time that they're actually scheduled.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
It really is like setting probably a no meeting Friday,
which we do at work, which is pretty good, and
everyone really honors that, and we kind of make sure
everything is like in my Thursday, I think setting a
time during the week or even like an afternoon. A
lot of my workmates they put in that do not
schedule time period, which like really cannot budge unless it's
(16:54):
like so important, and I think everyone really respects that.
I think it's really like having conversations with the people
around you and also having like more understanding across the
whole team that the afternoon or a certain time of
date is protected for, just like quiet time.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
The other thing is just making sure you're putting in
your start and end times in your calendar, so like
at this time I'm commuting, I don't take calls or
respond to messages, and then also including some of your
boundaries in your signature as well. I know a lot
of people will say, you know, I only check emails
twice a day, and they'll even block those in their
calendar that says, you know, this is the time I'm
checking emails and responding to slack messages.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
These times do not disturb.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Yeah, it's about having boundaries and try to be consistent,
but then having.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
A little bit of flexibility as well.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Yeah, because there'll be times when like things are like
have to be moved around and it'll be good like
to have that flexibility. But in general, I think, like
across the whole team, it's generally very like much agreed
that there are certain times that like cannot be touched.
Having that freedom in general, like across the whole workplace,
(17:56):
just makes people want to be flexible when the time
requires it.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
So I will just say everyone's jobs are different, right,
and we are not saying that time blocking is going
to work for everyone, And a lot of people have
the type of job where their day is just not
their own. If you don't plan your day, other people's
priorities will plan your day for you. So it's just
about getting on the front foot with your time, which
is so precious. So if you can just do a
little bit of planning, you can get on the front foot.
(18:32):
And it's actually I've found very anxiety reducing to know
that you're getting through things. I'll share some tips in
a minute, but I've actually found the whole process. It
feels like more work, but it actually can if you
stick with it, reduce your anxiety about time and work.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I think what I kind of like about this is
I don't think I'm the kind of person that will
ever actually time block, but I like what it stands for.
I think sprinkling a bit of the foundations of time
blocking into how you do your job if you're not
the kind of person who's going to time block, is
a good way to approach just being focused and intentioned
(19:12):
about your day.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Totally, because I think for a lot of us, the
idea of time blocking every minute of your day just
sounds awful, like when is the time for impromptu conversations
and having fun things like that? So yeah, yeah, definitely
with you on that.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
One thing I loved when you were talking was around
fitting things into your lifestyle, and I think you touched
on like when is the best time of day to
do certain tasks? And I think if you're maybe more
in my camp, which might be the light touch time
blocking camp. Two questions that I think could be good
for people to ask themselves when working out, like when
(19:46):
does your brain work best? Is asking yourself when do
you procrastinate the hardest? Like when do tasks feel hard?
And that really shouldn't be the time of day that
you're trying to do deep work or really get into
the weeds of certain things. And then when do things
feel effortless? And that should really be a clue for
your prime time. I know I'm a morning person because
(20:10):
things just feel easier for me. I know, my brain
completely bombs out at three pm like I'm done, my
day's done.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
The same oh my god saying, But some people that's
they're picking up My boss at Google, that's exactly when
his primetime was kind of thing. Yeah, Yeah, that's actually
my first tip. So know what time of day works
best for you, and also days of the week as well,
So that's a really big thing, like know when your
deep work is best and make sure.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
You're blocking that.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
So I actually connected this idea of know what time
of day is where you focus best. I've connected that
to an idea that you shared in our productivity episode,
and it's actually I don't always know the exact task
that I'm going to be doing, but I have a
focus block. As much as possible, I try to have
focus blocks in the morning and then I will sit
there and ask myself what's making me feel most uncomfortable today,
(20:59):
and that will be the thing that I actually go
and then do in that time. Also days of the week.
If you are going into the office on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
for example, I'm working from home Monday Friday, You're going
to be doing different things in the office versus at home,
so you want to prioritize a lot more in person
time and meetings and deep work is probably going to be.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
More on the Monday and Friday.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
Yeah. The second thing that really changed it for me
was this, if someone asked you to do something like
someone says, hey, can you present in the team meeting
next week? Instead of just adding it to a to
do list, I would instantly open up my calendar and say,
I think that's going to take me like three forty
five minute blocks to do, and I would just instantly
block the time up until that presentation next week, and
(21:41):
then I would dump any kind of initial thoughts that
I had into the first calendar block. It just reduced
the anxiety for me because then I know if I
just stick to these blocks, I know I'm going to
get it done. Once you feel the positive feelings of like,
oh hey that actually works, it helps you stick with
the time blocking.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
You're selling it to me, I love it. These are
three little, really quick ones. You're going to hate this one.
Shall You do need a block.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
To plan your blocks, So like I do have a
little block on a Friday where I actually try to
plan out the blocks for the wak ahead. Honestly, sometimes
I skip it. I'm like I'm having a margarita and
I'm not doing that, But then I kind of, yeah,
I do have to do it the next week. So yeah,
if you are going to get this to work for it,
you it does help if you actually have some planning time.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
My favorite one out of all of the tips is
my task pebbles block. So this is just where I.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Have two of them a week, and I just have
a calendar block that says task pebbles, And as things
come up throughout the week, those little things that you
don't have time for, I just drop them into the
description and save it, and then when I've got time,
I'll jump in. Sometimes if I've got spare time in
between meetings, I'll jump in and pull a task pebble,
or other times I'll just make sure i'm smashing those.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Out all in one go.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Such a good tip, and then the last point is
just to trust the process a little bit. So it
did take me quite a few gos. It actually so
helps sometimes to have an end point to something too,
So like you can maybe work on something for two
or three hours, but it's not actually healthy for your brain.
So be like, I'm going to do forty five minutes
on that task and then I'm going to stop. That
sense of progress that you get from being like okay,
(23:11):
that is now complete, and I can go and do
something else, or i can.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Have a break. It just makes it feel pretty good.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
You're kind of like setting yourself up for failure if
you start and you're time blocking and popping things in
that actually aren't really a priority to you, or aren't
things that you truly care about and want to do,
like Deb's example of reading and then not doing exactly okay,
So how someone could start this tomorrow? They need to
take away from your book and plan to plan, and
(23:41):
do that at a time when you feel most motivated.
So for me, it would probably be a Monday morning.
And then I think it's best for people to start
broad like maybe you have your deep work zone, maybe
you've got a shallow work zone, which is like your
task pebbles. Maybe you've got a personal zone, and that's
just how you begin, and once you nail that, you
(24:02):
can start to get more granular. But use those three
buckets to begin with as your to do lists. Stop
putting you to do list in the notes section of
your phone or on a sticky note on your laptop,
and get them into those calendar invites.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Get it into your calendar, and get it into your calendar.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Make it sound so easy, exactly, love it done.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
So dare hit us with some hard facts, especially when
she said there's actually so much time to do things
when you're not stressing about when to do them. As
someone who's attempted time blocking multiple times and failed, hearing
that was honestly revolutionary to me. If you're feeling inspired
to give time blocking a try, head to our bus newsletter.
(24:47):
This week, we've created a super simple template to help
get you started, and don't forget to follow us on
Instagram at biz Buy Mama Mia, where we'll be sharing
some practical tips throughout the entire week. Remember it's not
about being perfect, it's about finding what works for you.
I'll catch you in Thursday's Biz Inbox episode, where we'll
be answering all of your career questions. Bye,
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