January 8, 2026 • 29 mins
This summer we're curating your playlist with some of our favourite episodes of BIZ - our podcast that gets your work life sorted!
Do you feel guilty for taking breaks? Put work ahead of your relationships? Ignore your health in the name of productivity? You might be stuck in workaholic mode without even realising it!
Meet your new BIZ hosts: Lisa Lie (former Head of People & Culture who worked herself into burnout twice in one year) and Em Vernem (Associate Editor at Mamamia who discovered that giving 80% at work prevents the burnout that comes from constantly operating at 100%). They've been trapped in the cycle, escaped it, and now they're exposing the workaholic trap that's keeping high-achievers burning out—even when they love what they do.
You'll learn:
- The signs you're already caught in the cycle
- Where workaholic tendencies actually come from (hint: it's not what you think)
- How the workaholic trap sabotages your daily life without you noticing
- Why that promotion might be making everything worse
PLUS we take the University of Bergen’s 7-point Workaholism Test (finally, a way to tell the difference between working hard and working too hard), and chat the exact steps Lisa took to escape the workaholic cycle for good!
Resources That Actually Work:
Jane Martino, Co-Founder of Smiling Mind and Coach at Kintsugi Way
Mamamia's Well Burnout Episode: Is It Burnout Or Am I Just Really Tired?
7 Signs You May Be A Workaholic
The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide To Personal Freedom'by Don Miguel Ruiz
Less Hustle, More Happy by Claire Seeber
Our new BIZ hosts are Lisa Lie - a former Head of People & Culture and Organisational Coach - and Mamamia’s Em Vernem.
Learna is Lisa’s microlearning app for practical people skills at work. Expert-led lessons to build confidence, solve challenges, and work smarter - in under 7 minutes. Get it on Apple or Google Play.
Sign up to the BIZ newsletter here
THE END BITS
Support independent women's media.
Got a work life dilemma? Send us all the questions you definitely can't ask your boss for our Biz Inbox episodes - send us a voice note or email us at podcast@mamamia.com.au. You can remain anon!
HOSTS: Lisa Lie and Em Vernem
SENIOR PRODUCER: Sophie Campbell
AUDIO PRODUCER: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
https://www.mamamia.com.au/mplus/: https://www.mamamia.com.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to another Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We
have recorded this podcast on the Gatagoul people of the
Eur Nation. We pay our respects to their elders past
and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait islander cultures.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Hello and Vernon here and I am the host of BIZ,
a podcast that gets your work live sorted. And this
summer we are curating your playlist with unmissable episodes full
of hacks, tips and tricks from our top expert guests
and hosts. And if you're looking for more to listen to,
every Mama Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right
across our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
(01:04):
there is something for everyone. There is a link in
our show notes. Hello and welcome to BIZ. Your work
life sorted, and welcome to the new era of Bierz.
It is going to be like a tailor swift era.
We're going to go through it all, but we are
going to give you a whole bunch of new things
to work through, like some more knowledge for you. It's
(01:26):
also going to be really fun and exciting because work
and career can be fun and exciting. We also have
a new co host, Lisa Welcome to Biz, Heym.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
word problems fast.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good. I
highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put a
link in our show notes so you can download it
from the app store. I don't think I've probably introduced
myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate editor
and host here at Mama Mia. We are very, very
excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of BIZ
(02:06):
for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have to
thank Michelle Batisbye and so first our brilliant career coaches
from season one. They did an incredible job launching Bizz
Tuesday's episodes and they will be dearly missed. We can't
wait to keep bringing you all the practical advice inside
of knowledge you've come to expect from us. So, whether
(02:26):
you're a regular or you've just dropped in, Welcome to
the next chapter of Biz. We are here for real
and practical conversations about career growth, leadership, and how to
make work actually work on your terms.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Today we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me
hard at different points in my career.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
The workaholic trap.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
You know, feeling like you should always be working, even
when you're not sure it's getting you anywhere.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, it's like that, always on, right, Like you are
constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work,
it's because you're doing work and that's it.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, they're always on, feeling exactly. And I think a
lot of us, especially if you came up on that
girl boss hustle culture stage of life, have fallen into
this trap at some point because it's what was expected
of us and it's where we saw people achieving and
solo success. So today, when I'm packing, why it happens,
how to spot it in yourself, and most importantly, how
(03:22):
to start breaking free from it?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Okay, Li, So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies
and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them
were very funny, also very concerning. Here's what we got. Hi,
I'm Alicia and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because I'm
afraid everything will fall apart without me. Three years insane,
(03:51):
I know, Well, let me just swish off.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I'm Ella and I'm a workaholic. I have no boundaries.
I've even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts.
Email addictions real, it is real.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I feel slightly better about mine.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Hi.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free
to answer the phone no matter what time it is,
constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got
a bit of a problem.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
No, Tina, there's no good you near switch off, girl.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I really love what I do, but I've worked through
every public holiday this year.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
It's a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday. Yeah,
that's no good.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I talked to so many people at the moment who
are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too,
so there's a lot of people feeling it. I think
we should talk about where this trap actually starts, because
it usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it
built up really early, and it built up from something
really simple, like I work hard.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
You've picked that up already, You've done a few things.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so
I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone
that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded
for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the
go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better, and
being known for it. Yeah, and when something's working, you
really double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement
(05:20):
became quite powerful for me. You know, the stories that
you start to tell yourself if I work hard, then
I'm rewarded, and it's really like, what.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Is your definition of working hard?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Right? That behavior became part of how I operated all
the time throughout my career, and you know as well
as I do that is not sustainable. So the trap
is that the more that you become that person, the
harder it is to stop. Like people expect it, you
expected of yourself, and before you know it, working all
the time just becomes the norm and it can work
(05:50):
for a while, and it did work for me for
quite a while, but there's always a point where you
hit a limit.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Something shifts.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, it's something
in your personal life change out. Yes, generally you can
work aholic yourself into burnout right, whatever it is. You
realize then that this way of working is not working
for me and it's not going to get me to
where I want to go next. Do you relate with
like being this workaholic?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely
was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job
here at Muma Mea, because I started here when I
was quite young. I've talked about this many times. I
think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or
something like that. Yeah, and now I'm twenty nine. And
I remember when I started, the only person I knew
who had like the big career that I wanted to
achieve was my mom. Like she was just like big
(06:37):
boss energy, and she was a workaholic, and I was like,
that's what I have to do. And I remember I
was doing like I started here and everyone was like
go home, go Like it was crazy. I was so
young and I would be here to like eight PM
doing like a meaningless task that I didn't really need
to do, and I just wanted to do it and
show that I could do it. And I feel like
it's generational, right, Like I feel like a certain generation
awarded that kind of work. And that's kind of shifting
(06:59):
now now that like millennials and older gen zs are
becoming managers. It's more respectful to not have to rely
on people to show that they're literally dying for the job. Yes,
And I used to be so annoyed because I would
see young girls come into work working hard, but not
going above and beyond and pushing themselves as much as
I did when I first this job, and I was like,
(07:21):
why are they also achieving the same things I achieved?
And then I realized it's not because they're not working hard,
it's because I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Yes, I think it's really interesting the point you rise
around the people around you. So when I was a workaholic,
one of my fass of being a workaholic, I was
also a team leader. And there are a group of
people around me. We were a really high performing team,
and I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit
workaholics or did I teach them to become workaholics.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
That's actually such a good point because I do think, yeah,
exactly what we said. It's your environment and even like
I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle as well,
because I feel like the one point in your life
where you can switch off and not be workaholic is
when you're not at work. Yeah, but then all my
friends and my closest friends are also in the same
line and work with me. Like, they're all journalists, all workaholics.
(08:11):
So even when we're like out of drinks, out a dinner,
it's like, what are you doing at work? What's going
on the work? Everyone knows everyone. It's just one of
those things where it can filter into your life without
you even realizing it.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right,
and that was your image. I think it becomes the
stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my
stories that I was telling myself was that people can
rely on me. Therefore, I don't want to let people down,
and so I'll keep working to make sure that I'm
not letting anyone else down. I mentioned to you earlier
there was this tipping point for me last year in
(08:44):
this I think I've always been a bit of a
work collic, Like we always had really good work ethic,
and it's varied into stages of being good work ethic
into workaholic and back again.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
But last year was.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout
twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right,
And so as I was coming through the second point
of realizing that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something
has got to change.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
How did you realize that you hit burnout?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
There's a couple of signs, and I think you have
a podcast and we'll link to it in the show
notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this
feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion. Yeah, and
to the point where you just like stare at the
screen and not like get anything done, and you're like, oh,
I just don't even know where to start, so you
almost like crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big,
big sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.
(09:33):
It's like almost for me, it was like having the
flu that feeling.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah, physically seeing.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Yeah, exactly, And so the physical part of them, like right,
at some point you have to listen to your body
and realize that it's trying to tell you something. And
so for me last year, that was the point where
I'm like, Okay, I need to find out more about
this and I need to figure out a better way
of working going forward. So that's when I started paying
attention to the signs. And honestly, they weren't really dramatic.
(09:58):
Like I mentioned one before was like just feeling really
physically tired. But it can also be small stuff that
leads into this, like identifying that you're in workholic mode.
So one you said before like must be on twenty
four to seven. Yeah, another one was mine. I was
very guilty of this, thinking about how you can free
out more time to work.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So, oh my god, I've done this. Yes, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Yeah, And do you know what when you clock in
your head you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right.
Like I was calculating mentally like if that happened, then
I could actually squeeze in an hour here.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
I've done that. My big tell is when I wake
up and the first thing I do is check my
cycle or check my emails. Yep, because it usually is
check Instagram, which is it as unhealthy, Yes, but it's
a social app versus a work app. Exactly when I
wake up and I'm like, what happened on CYC when
I was sleep, Like, nothing's happened. Everyone else was asleep
(10:52):
as well. But it's just one of those things where
I'm like, oh, I'm dipping in again.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Yes, as one hundred percent of sign One of my
signs as well was that thinking TV was a waste
of time, Like why wouldn't you be doing something productive
with your time? Relaxing is a waste of time? Is
something I actually.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Set out loud, Oh my god, my mom would love you, which.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's not right.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that
we are more like athletes than we realize at work,
like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must
play game day every single day. There's like rest and
recovery and training and things like that built into it.
That was a really good analogy for me to like, go, Okay,
something has to shift here.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
I also think like it's worth touching on him that
there are points in your career where you do want
to or have to work hard and like you want
to dig in, right, you know, there are times in
my career where I was working on certain projects and
really good opportunities and I'm sure you'd like resonate with this,
and I did have to dig deep, but it wasn't
(12:00):
twenty four to seven, and it wasn't every day a
week as well, And so that's not all we're talking
about here. We're saying, yes, work hard at points, but
don't make it a habit.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I have a running joke here at Mama Meya and
I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's head
of content, and I've said I probably give about eighty
percent on myself at work and they were like, what,
like should you be telling me this?
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And I was like, I actually think it's quite true
because one hundred percent for me, like the way I
work is workaholic level. If you want me at one
hundred percent, just know I'm going to be burnt out
in two months, Whereas like eighty percent is my sweet spot,
Like I know when to clock off, I know when
to relax, I know when to take my break I
know if I need to start a bit later, if
(12:43):
I finish a bit earlier, because I'm confident that I
am a good worker and I'm confident that I work
hard and I have to do these little things. And
in my head when I say eighty percent, it helps
me bring it back. Yes, And I don't mean like,
if you aren't working hard, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yes, please work a little bit hard.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Please work a little bit hard, like you need to
know exactly where your libbit is. And because I'm a
numbers girl, so when I put a number to that,
I'm like, okay, if I feel myself going to ninety
and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit,
but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like
fizzle out.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yes, you obviously had to learn that, though, because you
were telling me before that you went through a period
of being like full work zone. Was there a moment
when you realize that you could take that shift.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I think it was a moment when I realized that
people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things
I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what
I was getting out of my job and when I
realized I could still get the same things out of
my job by like relaxing a little bit. I was like, oh,
this is great, I don't need to do that, Like
(13:47):
I think I go into waves as well. Yes, exactly
what you said, Like, there will be times in my career,
which is right now, because I've got like a new
job and I want to be the best of the
best at it, So there will be times like now
where I will probably tap into that workaholicism. But there
will be times where I know I have to pull
it back because I don't want to burn out. So
I do think you will go through waves in your
(14:08):
career where you will have to work a bit harder.
Then sometimes you can just like take a back seat,
still work up, take a bit of a backseat, and
just be aware of that. Like I think, once you're
actually aware of your patterns, it makes it so much
easier to control.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love that you've already told your managers about this
as well, so they're not going like I told them
as a joke.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
And then I was like, actually, I think I'm quite
serious about.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
That, Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like, what
is this whiplash? Like one day em is like working
on this level and now she's working on this level.
They're aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome.
One of the things I've grappled with is, up until recently,
there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Yes we did. When you showed me this, I was like,
I am going to show everyone this. So the Department
of Psychosocial Science at the University of Bergen in Norway
developed a work addiction scale based on specific symptoms that
characterize a workaholic, and they came up with seven signs,
(15:05):
and they said that if you answer often or always
to any of these signs, you may have workaholic tendencies.
And brace yourselves because they are quite like simple things
that I didn't even realize were signs of a workaholic.
So Number one, you think of how you can free
up more time to work, which is exactly what we did.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Number two, you spend much more time working than initially intended.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Which I find this one so hard because I really
enjoy what I do and so sometimes I need to
go Okay, enough.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Now enough, now please doss Number three you work in
order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash
or depression.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Well, I just told you about the guilt factor.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Let anyone down, yes, And I think this also comes
in with the generational thing, like what certain generations expect.
Like I have a friend whose boss is always like
so they manage a team, and then their boss oversees
like three teams okay, And with my friend's team, a
lot of them work from home.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Her boss comes in and she's like, everyone's working from
home again, what the hell? And she's like, I'm the
most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers, You've seen
how hard we work. And then he realized. He was like,
oh my god. Yeah, I don't have to see them
to know that they're working. Yes, correct, that's a really
good example. I hope he's listening. So number four, you
(16:24):
have been told by others to cut down on work
without listening to them. Oh, that's a bit of a
red flag to me.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift
concert and I took my work laptop with me, not
to the concert, on the plane.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
On the plane and my girlfriend's like, do you need
to do that right now.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up because you know,
like idle time, and.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
What did you get done during that time?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Edited some content? It was good, But did it really
need to be to have that?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Have been editing as you had? The tailor swift comes out?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, exactly exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Though, Okay, good good, good guy. I didn't get tickets,
so I'm pretty stressed out about that.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Five.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited
from working. This one rings so true to me, does it.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
If I go on a holiday, I make it a
point to delete my slacken email and I give my
numbers to the people who need my number in case
so there's an emergency. I'm a journalist, I'm a podcaster.
What kind of emergency I know I think they need
from me.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
This is what someone said to me last year when
I was saying, I get up and I check my
emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't
have a global team, Like, are you the CEO of
a fourtune five thousand business or whatever?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
It is, so like, no, if you're a surgeon a
different story. Yeah, but not all of us are saving lives. No, okay.
Number six. You deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise
because of your work. Oh I mean this right now?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Actually are you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a
polarates class in a month.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Oh see, I've come out of the other side because
last year I would work really hard and then I
would thrash myself really hard at like some like body
fit kind of situation. So it's either all yeah, yeah,
even this year, I'm like full pilates zen must must
be part of my day kind of situation to bring
it back.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeh.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It's hard though, especially the hobby stuff.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like
why would you waste your time watching TV?
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
But like why would we waste the time doing stuff
that's not work.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Because it fills our cup and we're not here just
to work. Yeah yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Number seven. You work so much that it has negatively
influenced your health. This is a big one. I was
burnt out. I can't remember what year it was. I
became so physically sick. I had to take three weeks
off work.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like,
felt like the flu but no flu symptoms, and I
was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just
like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it.
And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so
he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you
know how much I work. And he was like, I
think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the
(19:10):
first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
I think docs are also much more aware of it.
And if you are listening along to this and you're
experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone
about it. It's so important, whether it's a close friend
or your GP because while we can laugh about coming
through this now and everything, it is like something impacts
your life.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
You need to work out, and your workplace should be
on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at MoMA
mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like, go
do your thing that's working yourself, where like be aware
that there will be some workplaces that they're like it's
still such a new thing, right, Like the concept of
burnout there's still places where they're like, what do you mean.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
I mean, I started my career in advertising, and this
is like pity.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I know.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
This is like fifteen years ago as well when it started,
and it was like glamorized burnout. It was full work hard,
play hard, and I loved it and I was young.
But you can't keep doing that forever. Yeah, next up,
we're going to tell you how you can break free
of that and share some of our tips around how
we've moved out of the.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Don't worry, it's not a doom and glamory.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
No, it is not doom gloom. It's awful of hope
from here.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
So I thought we could share what's helped us both.
I want to share what I've done recently that's actually
really helped me start to break out of that trap
and also almost out of that mindset of I must
work all the time and keep it in check, because,
like you've said, like you can eb and flow through this.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
There are times when you can work hard.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
We just won't want you to end up becoming a
workaholic and that being part of your life.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Right. I will say I'm still a work in progress.
I really love what I do and so I do
find it hard to switch off. You know. I was
even writing these notes quite late at night for this episode.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Got that notification girl, It was great for me, who
checks my emails at six thirty.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
Eight, I thought, so keeping it in check and just
being much more wherever and like, I think the start
of any problem always needs a bit more intention and
realization that you don't want to be that way.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
So a couple of things I did.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
So when I was in Burnout Burnout Part two last year,
I was like, something has to change.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
If you want to change anything at work or in life,
you need to figure out why, Like why is it
important for you to change it? Why should you change?
Why are you doing it in the first place? And
so I booked in to see a coach performance and
mindset coach. Oh wow, yes, and it was transformational. Her
name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of
(21:39):
Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.
So we had a few sessions unpacking where the workholic
tendencies were coming from and what I wanted instead, give
yourself the time and space. So much time at work
we are rushing through doing all the things crossing off
our to do list that we don't give ourselves time
to think. Yeah, and that's what a coaching session will do.
(22:01):
You'll sit back, talk it out and think for an hour.
That was one of the best things I did. So
find yourself a coach or someone who can support you
like a coach can.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo,
we've got a prop.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book.
It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah herb
review was like this transfer my life.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
My book review is the start and the end are
a bit.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Woo woo for me. But the Four Agreements you do
not give woo woo out of everything. No, right, yeah,
But I was like, I'm very like open to learning
and open minded. So I was like, hmm, I had
to push through the first couple of chapters. But then
when we got into the four Agreements around like, you
know what you should agree with yourself and the kind
of like work life and life you want to have.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I'll give you a sneak peak.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
First agreement being peckled with your word. Second one don't
take anything personally. Third, don't make assumptions. And fourth, always
do your best, and it talks about those and the
minds that you have around each of those things.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It's so simple but also quite hard to do.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me
to do. And I think you know how you're saying,
I don't give off woo woo vibes when you are
trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it
a bit.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You should go to where you haven't been before.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Actually, what have you got to lose? Right?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Go foraging?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Yes, go forwarding by this book that Oprazer was transformational.
So my third tip is balance like that, intention and control.
So a question I always come to myself with every
week is what.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Does good look like?
Speaker 4 (23:34):
So if I'm going to finish this week or this
day as well, and know that I've had a really
good day and I can clock off and be satisfied
with what I've done, what does good look like? And
so then I've got my top three or four things
that have to do that's so good.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
And so my last one is boundaries.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Oh, I hate that one.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I know it's the hardest one.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I actual there's someone who's like such a perm. I
just want to know what everyone's doing. I know, I
mean everyone's business. Yeah, you're like, I'll just find out
this one more thing.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Boundaries.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
I think the reason we hate the word is because
it feels really restrictive. It's like when you were saying before,
like someone told me I can't work. But at some
point you realize that work is more of a marathon,
not a sprint, and if we treat it like a sprint, they.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Were just going to be exhausted the whole time.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Yeah, you enjoy it like you should be able to
enjoy work. And so if you think about it that way,
then the boundaries become why do I need these boundaries?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Like?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Do I need them so my work can be more sustainable?
Or I can sustain this high level performance for a while?
Do I need them because I want to dedicate some
time to other areas in my life as well, like
exercise that's also important? And so figure out why it's
important for you, because if you don't do that top
and tail of why, like why with the coach and
then why should I set boundaries? You won't really be
(24:51):
fully committed to any kind of change.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Ah.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Okay. I do have a few tips that worked for
me personally.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So are they woo wo?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
They're not woo wo? Okay, So I feel like, if
you're listening, definitely take on Lisa's tips. Use mine as
a grain of salt.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Let's go take your pick.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Okay. Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I
mean is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot
of my closest friends are also industry friends who know
about work but also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in
your life who are the complete opposite and hang out
with them a lot. My person I go to when
I feel like I'm working a lot and a lot
and a lot and it's like kind of taking out
(25:27):
my whole life is my nana because firstly, you can't
talk to your nana and be on your phone. That's
so rude. Yeah, and she has no idea about anything.
So we're just talking about the garden, We're talking about
what she watched on Netflix lately. We're talking about new
Spice she found.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
She's probably like, what's a podcast?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
She genuinely for the last seven years things I work
at Facebook excellent.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yep, that works because I.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Told her one of my articles one on Facebook, and
she's like, you work on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yes, yep, yep, let's go with that.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
And the other tip is fake holidays. So what I
mean by this, you knowing you're a workaholic is really hard.
Like even like what I do when I go on
holidays or when I'm off on the weekend, I delete
my email and my Slack from my phone. Okay, Still,
I will have these little times where I'll be on
the toilet or no one's around me, and I'll like
(26:17):
quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer, check something.
What I do in some situations, it's like, say it's
a weekend, I tell work that I'm going to be
away in a place where there's no reception.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So, and it's not just telling them as in like
don't message me, but it's like telling yourself like, yes,
you've given yourself allowance to actually delete those apps and
not check your phone over the weekend because people will
definitely not message you. Now, it's like giving you like
it's fine, people aren't going to message you personally, they
won't message you on the weekend, but now they definitely
won't because you told them I have no reception exactly.
(26:51):
So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting? Like the stories
we tell ourselves as well?
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And how much we can you're convinced yourself if it works,
do it.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of
the workaholic, where you feel like hobbies are waste of
time and you want to work instead. Are phone free hobbies.
So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby.
Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where
you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Oh, quickly check you computer.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I try to find hobbies where you physic can't do that.
And one of mine is I used to play piano
when I was younger, and I've started taking it up
again on you, so I'm playing piano. You actually can't
check your phone when you're playing piano. It's really hard.
And then if you have those like work a whole
tendencies where you just want to achieve something and be
good at it, just make finishing that piano piece that thing, yes,
(27:39):
and just tell yourself that if I finish this, if
I do that, then that's something I've achieved. And then
you haven't thought about work for like an hour.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Like it's so nice, like it's the one thing that
I can do where like you physically can't think about
anything else because then you're stuff it up exactly. It's
just so nice.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
And my last thing is what I brought up before,
it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work
where you do want to work a bit harder, and
pick the times where you can just kind of chill
out a bit.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yes, yeah, I think if we can give everyone like
one useful thing to go away from this with is
if you are feeling like you're part of some of
these workaholic tendencies are calling out to you and the
list of you this year with us before figure out why,
talk to your friends, talk to your mentor get a coach,
and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you
figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change.
(28:29):
It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So good, that is all we have for this week's
episode of BIZ. We know you are juggling deadlines and meetings,
so thank you so much for spending some of your
day with us. We hope these insights help you tackle
your next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence. Plus
for extra content, you can always follow us on Instagram
at biz by Mama Maya for all your weekly workplace insights.
(28:51):
On some behind the scenes we did a very special
little behind the scenes better.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Shoot for you to check out, Oh Yes, Go, give
it a.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Follow, give us a little yeah, tell us how much
you loved it. If you want more of these topics,
you can check out our newsletter as well. It's completely free.
We will put a link in our show notes to that,
and we'll put everything that you want to recap in
that one newsletter. It is such a good asset. Every
time I get it, I'm like, oh my god, I
forgot we covered all of this.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Oh Yes business produced by Georgie Page and Sophie Campbell
with audio by Leah Porges.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
We'll be back in your podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Feed next week with more no nonsense work chat. Until then,
back yourself, ask what you want and remember even the
most confident.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
People are figuring it out as they go. See you
next time. Bye.
You're listening to another Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We
have recorded this podcast on the Gatagoul people of the
Eur Nation. We pay our respects to their elders past
and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait islander cultures.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Hello and Vernon here and I am the host of BIZ,
a podcast that gets your work live sorted. And this
summer we are curating your playlist with unmissable episodes full
of hacks, tips and tricks from our top expert guests
and hosts. And if you're looking for more to listen to,
every Mama Mia podcast is curating your summer listening right
across our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
(01:04):
there is something for everyone. There is a link in
our show notes. Hello and welcome to BIZ. Your work
life sorted, and welcome to the new era of Bierz.
It is going to be like a tailor swift era.
We're going to go through it all, but we are
going to give you a whole bunch of new things
to work through, like some more knowledge for you. It's
(01:26):
also going to be really fun and exciting because work
and career can be fun and exciting. We also have
a new co host, Lisa Welcome to Biz, Heym.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
that helps you build the people skills to solve real
word problems fast.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good. I
highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put a
link in our show notes so you can download it
from the app store. I don't think I've probably introduced
myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate editor
and host here at Mama Mia. We are very, very
excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of BIZ
(02:06):
for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have to
thank Michelle Batisbye and so first our brilliant career coaches
from season one. They did an incredible job launching Bizz
Tuesday's episodes and they will be dearly missed. We can't
wait to keep bringing you all the practical advice inside
of knowledge you've come to expect from us. So, whether
(02:26):
you're a regular or you've just dropped in, Welcome to
the next chapter of Biz. We are here for real
and practical conversations about career growth, leadership, and how to
make work actually work on your terms.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Today we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me
hard at different points in my career.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
The workaholic trap.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
You know, feeling like you should always be working, even
when you're not sure it's getting you anywhere.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, it's like that, always on, right, Like you are
constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work,
it's because you're doing work and that's it.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, they're always on, feeling exactly. And I think a
lot of us, especially if you came up on that
girl boss hustle culture stage of life, have fallen into
this trap at some point because it's what was expected
of us and it's where we saw people achieving and
solo success. So today, when I'm packing, why it happens,
how to spot it in yourself, and most importantly, how
(03:22):
to start breaking free from it?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Okay, Li, So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies
and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them
were very funny, also very concerning. Here's what we got. Hi,
I'm Alicia and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because I'm
afraid everything will fall apart without me. Three years insane,
(03:51):
I know, Well, let me just swish off.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I'm Ella and I'm a workaholic. I have no boundaries.
I've even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts.
Email addictions real, it is real.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I feel slightly better about mine.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Hi.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free
to answer the phone no matter what time it is,
constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got
a bit of a problem.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
No, Tina, there's no good you near switch off, girl.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I really love what I do, but I've worked through
every public holiday this year.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
It's a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday. Yeah,
that's no good.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I talked to so many people at the moment who
are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too,
so there's a lot of people feeling it. I think
we should talk about where this trap actually starts, because
it usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it
built up really early, and it built up from something
really simple, like I work hard.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
You've picked that up already, You've done a few things.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so
I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone
that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded
for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the
go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better, and
being known for it. Yeah, and when something's working, you
really double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement
(05:20):
became quite powerful for me. You know, the stories that
you start to tell yourself if I work hard, then
I'm rewarded, and it's really like, what.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Is your definition of working hard?
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Right? That behavior became part of how I operated all
the time throughout my career, and you know as well
as I do that is not sustainable. So the trap
is that the more that you become that person, the
harder it is to stop. Like people expect it, you
expected of yourself, and before you know it, working all
the time just becomes the norm and it can work
(05:50):
for a while, and it did work for me for
quite a while, but there's always a point where you
hit a limit.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Something shifts.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, it's something
in your personal life change out. Yes, generally you can
work aholic yourself into burnout right, whatever it is. You
realize then that this way of working is not working
for me and it's not going to get me to
where I want to go next. Do you relate with
like being this workaholic?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely
was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job
here at Muma Mea, because I started here when I
was quite young. I've talked about this many times. I
think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or
something like that. Yeah, and now I'm twenty nine. And
I remember when I started, the only person I knew
who had like the big career that I wanted to
achieve was my mom. Like she was just like big
(06:37):
boss energy, and she was a workaholic, and I was like,
that's what I have to do. And I remember I
was doing like I started here and everyone was like
go home, go Like it was crazy. I was so
young and I would be here to like eight PM
doing like a meaningless task that I didn't really need
to do, and I just wanted to do it and
show that I could do it. And I feel like
it's generational, right, Like I feel like a certain generation
awarded that kind of work. And that's kind of shifting
(06:59):
now now that like millennials and older gen zs are
becoming managers. It's more respectful to not have to rely
on people to show that they're literally dying for the job. Yes,
And I used to be so annoyed because I would
see young girls come into work working hard, but not
going above and beyond and pushing themselves as much as
I did when I first this job, and I was like,
(07:21):
why are they also achieving the same things I achieved?
And then I realized it's not because they're not working hard,
it's because I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Yes, I think it's really interesting the point you rise
around the people around you. So when I was a workaholic,
one of my fass of being a workaholic, I was
also a team leader. And there are a group of
people around me. We were a really high performing team,
and I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit
workaholics or did I teach them to become workaholics.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
That's actually such a good point because I do think, yeah,
exactly what we said. It's your environment and even like
I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle as well,
because I feel like the one point in your life
where you can switch off and not be workaholic is
when you're not at work. Yeah, but then all my
friends and my closest friends are also in the same
line and work with me. Like, they're all journalists, all workaholics.
(08:11):
So even when we're like out of drinks, out a dinner,
it's like, what are you doing at work? What's going
on the work? Everyone knows everyone. It's just one of
those things where it can filter into your life without
you even realizing it.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right,
and that was your image. I think it becomes the
stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my
stories that I was telling myself was that people can
rely on me. Therefore, I don't want to let people down,
and so I'll keep working to make sure that I'm
not letting anyone else down. I mentioned to you earlier
there was this tipping point for me last year in
(08:44):
this I think I've always been a bit of a
work collic, Like we always had really good work ethic,
and it's varied into stages of being good work ethic
into workaholic and back again.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
But last year was.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout
twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right,
And so as I was coming through the second point
of realizing that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something
has got to change.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
How did you realize that you hit burnout?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
There's a couple of signs, and I think you have
a podcast and we'll link to it in the show
notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this
feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion. Yeah, and
to the point where you just like stare at the
screen and not like get anything done, and you're like, oh,
I just don't even know where to start, so you
almost like crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big,
big sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.
(09:33):
It's like almost for me, it was like having the
flu that feeling.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah, physically seeing.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
Yeah, exactly, And so the physical part of them, like right,
at some point you have to listen to your body
and realize that it's trying to tell you something. And
so for me last year, that was the point where
I'm like, Okay, I need to find out more about
this and I need to figure out a better way
of working going forward. So that's when I started paying
attention to the signs. And honestly, they weren't really dramatic.
(09:58):
Like I mentioned one before was like just feeling really
physically tired. But it can also be small stuff that
leads into this, like identifying that you're in workholic mode.
So one you said before like must be on twenty
four to seven. Yeah, another one was mine. I was
very guilty of this, thinking about how you can free
out more time to work.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So, oh my god, I've done this. Yes, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Yeah, And do you know what when you clock in
your head you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right.
Like I was calculating mentally like if that happened, then
I could actually squeeze in an hour here.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
I've done that. My big tell is when I wake
up and the first thing I do is check my
cycle or check my emails. Yep, because it usually is
check Instagram, which is it as unhealthy, Yes, but it's
a social app versus a work app. Exactly when I
wake up and I'm like, what happened on CYC when
I was sleep, Like, nothing's happened. Everyone else was asleep
(10:52):
as well. But it's just one of those things where
I'm like, oh, I'm dipping in again.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Yes, as one hundred percent of sign One of my
signs as well was that thinking TV was a waste
of time, Like why wouldn't you be doing something productive
with your time? Relaxing is a waste of time? Is
something I actually.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Set out loud, Oh my god, my mom would love you, which.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's not right.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that
we are more like athletes than we realize at work,
like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must
play game day every single day. There's like rest and
recovery and training and things like that built into it.
That was a really good analogy for me to like, go, Okay,
something has to shift here.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
I also think like it's worth touching on him that
there are points in your career where you do want
to or have to work hard and like you want
to dig in, right, you know, there are times in
my career where I was working on certain projects and
really good opportunities and I'm sure you'd like resonate with this,
and I did have to dig deep, but it wasn't
(12:00):
twenty four to seven, and it wasn't every day a
week as well, And so that's not all we're talking
about here. We're saying, yes, work hard at points, but
don't make it a habit.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I have a running joke here at Mama Meya and
I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's head
of content, and I've said I probably give about eighty
percent on myself at work and they were like, what,
like should you be telling me this?
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And I was like, I actually think it's quite true
because one hundred percent for me, like the way I
work is workaholic level. If you want me at one
hundred percent, just know I'm going to be burnt out
in two months, Whereas like eighty percent is my sweet spot,
Like I know when to clock off, I know when
to relax, I know when to take my break I
know if I need to start a bit later, if
(12:43):
I finish a bit earlier, because I'm confident that I
am a good worker and I'm confident that I work
hard and I have to do these little things. And
in my head when I say eighty percent, it helps
me bring it back. Yes, And I don't mean like,
if you aren't working hard, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yes, please work a little bit hard.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Please work a little bit hard, like you need to
know exactly where your libbit is. And because I'm a
numbers girl, so when I put a number to that,
I'm like, okay, if I feel myself going to ninety
and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit,
but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like
fizzle out.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Yes, you obviously had to learn that, though, because you
were telling me before that you went through a period
of being like full work zone. Was there a moment
when you realize that you could take that shift.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I think it was a moment when I realized that
people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things
I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what
I was getting out of my job and when I
realized I could still get the same things out of
my job by like relaxing a little bit. I was like, oh,
this is great, I don't need to do that, Like
(13:47):
I think I go into waves as well. Yes, exactly
what you said, Like, there will be times in my career,
which is right now, because I've got like a new
job and I want to be the best of the
best at it, So there will be times like now
where I will probably tap into that workaholicism. But there
will be times where I know I have to pull
it back because I don't want to burn out. So
I do think you will go through waves in your
(14:08):
career where you will have to work a bit harder.
Then sometimes you can just like take a back seat,
still work up, take a bit of a backseat, and
just be aware of that. Like I think, once you're
actually aware of your patterns, it makes it so much
easier to control.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I love that you've already told your managers about this
as well, so they're not going like I told them
as a joke.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
And then I was like, actually, I think I'm quite
serious about.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
That, Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like, what
is this whiplash? Like one day em is like working
on this level and now she's working on this level.
They're aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome.
One of the things I've grappled with is, up until recently,
there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Yes we did. When you showed me this, I was like,
I am going to show everyone this. So the Department
of Psychosocial Science at the University of Bergen in Norway
developed a work addiction scale based on specific symptoms that
characterize a workaholic, and they came up with seven signs,
(15:05):
and they said that if you answer often or always
to any of these signs, you may have workaholic tendencies.
And brace yourselves because they are quite like simple things
that I didn't even realize were signs of a workaholic.
So Number one, you think of how you can free
up more time to work, which is exactly what we did.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Number two, you spend much more time working than initially intended.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Which I find this one so hard because I really
enjoy what I do and so sometimes I need to
go Okay, enough.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Now enough, now please doss Number three you work in
order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash
or depression.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Well, I just told you about the guilt factor.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Let anyone down, yes, And I think this also comes
in with the generational thing, like what certain generations expect.
Like I have a friend whose boss is always like
so they manage a team, and then their boss oversees
like three teams okay, And with my friend's team, a
lot of them work from home.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Her boss comes in and she's like, everyone's working from
home again, what the hell? And she's like, I'm the
most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers, You've seen
how hard we work. And then he realized. He was like,
oh my god. Yeah, I don't have to see them
to know that they're working. Yes, correct, that's a really
good example. I hope he's listening. So number four, you
(16:24):
have been told by others to cut down on work
without listening to them. Oh, that's a bit of a
red flag to me.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift
concert and I took my work laptop with me, not
to the concert, on the plane.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
On the plane and my girlfriend's like, do you need
to do that right now.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up because you know,
like idle time, and.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
What did you get done during that time?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Edited some content? It was good, But did it really
need to be to have that?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Have been editing as you had? The tailor swift comes out?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, exactly exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Though, Okay, good good, good guy. I didn't get tickets,
so I'm pretty stressed out about that.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Five.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited
from working. This one rings so true to me, does it.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
If I go on a holiday, I make it a
point to delete my slacken email and I give my
numbers to the people who need my number in case
so there's an emergency. I'm a journalist, I'm a podcaster.
What kind of emergency I know I think they need
from me.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
This is what someone said to me last year when
I was saying, I get up and I check my
emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't
have a global team, Like, are you the CEO of
a fourtune five thousand business or whatever?
Speaker 3 (17:39):
It is, so like, no, if you're a surgeon a
different story. Yeah, but not all of us are saving lives. No, okay.
Number six. You deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise
because of your work. Oh I mean this right now?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Actually are you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a
polarates class in a month.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Oh see, I've come out of the other side because
last year I would work really hard and then I
would thrash myself really hard at like some like body
fit kind of situation. So it's either all yeah, yeah,
even this year, I'm like full pilates zen must must
be part of my day kind of situation to bring
it back.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeh.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It's hard though, especially the hobby stuff.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like
why would you waste your time watching TV?
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
But like why would we waste the time doing stuff
that's not work.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Because it fills our cup and we're not here just
to work. Yeah yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Number seven. You work so much that it has negatively
influenced your health. This is a big one. I was
burnt out. I can't remember what year it was. I
became so physically sick. I had to take three weeks
off work.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like,
felt like the flu but no flu symptoms, and I
was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just
like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it.
And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so
he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you
know how much I work. And he was like, I
think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the
(19:10):
first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
I think docs are also much more aware of it.
And if you are listening along to this and you're
experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone
about it. It's so important, whether it's a close friend
or your GP because while we can laugh about coming
through this now and everything, it is like something impacts
your life.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
You need to work out, and your workplace should be
on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at MoMA
mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like, go
do your thing that's working yourself, where like be aware
that there will be some workplaces that they're like it's
still such a new thing, right, Like the concept of
burnout there's still places where they're like, what do you mean.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
I mean, I started my career in advertising, and this
is like pity.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
I know.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
This is like fifteen years ago as well when it started,
and it was like glamorized burnout. It was full work hard,
play hard, and I loved it and I was young.
But you can't keep doing that forever. Yeah, next up,
we're going to tell you how you can break free
of that and share some of our tips around how
we've moved out of the.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Don't worry, it's not a doom and glamory.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
No, it is not doom gloom. It's awful of hope
from here.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
So I thought we could share what's helped us both.
I want to share what I've done recently that's actually
really helped me start to break out of that trap
and also almost out of that mindset of I must
work all the time and keep it in check, because,
like you've said, like you can eb and flow through this.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
There are times when you can work hard.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
We just won't want you to end up becoming a
workaholic and that being part of your life.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Right. I will say I'm still a work in progress.
I really love what I do and so I do
find it hard to switch off. You know. I was
even writing these notes quite late at night for this episode.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Got that notification girl, It was great for me, who
checks my emails at six thirty.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
Eight, I thought, so keeping it in check and just
being much more wherever and like, I think the start
of any problem always needs a bit more intention and
realization that you don't want to be that way.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
So a couple of things I did.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
So when I was in Burnout Burnout Part two last year,
I was like, something has to change.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
If you want to change anything at work or in life,
you need to figure out why, Like why is it
important for you to change it? Why should you change?
Why are you doing it in the first place? And
so I booked in to see a coach performance and
mindset coach. Oh wow, yes, and it was transformational. Her
name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of
(21:39):
Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.
So we had a few sessions unpacking where the workholic
tendencies were coming from and what I wanted instead, give
yourself the time and space. So much time at work
we are rushing through doing all the things crossing off
our to do list that we don't give ourselves time
to think. Yeah, and that's what a coaching session will do.
(22:01):
You'll sit back, talk it out and think for an hour.
That was one of the best things I did. So
find yourself a coach or someone who can support you
like a coach can.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo,
we've got a prop.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book.
It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah herb
review was like this transfer my life.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
My book review is the start and the end are
a bit.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Woo woo for me. But the Four Agreements you do
not give woo woo out of everything. No, right, yeah,
But I was like, I'm very like open to learning
and open minded. So I was like, hmm, I had
to push through the first couple of chapters. But then
when we got into the four Agreements around like, you
know what you should agree with yourself and the kind
of like work life and life you want to have.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I'll give you a sneak peak.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
First agreement being peckled with your word. Second one don't
take anything personally. Third, don't make assumptions. And fourth, always
do your best, and it talks about those and the
minds that you have around each of those things.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It's so simple but also quite hard to do.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me
to do. And I think you know how you're saying,
I don't give off woo woo vibes when you are
trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it
a bit.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You should go to where you haven't been before.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Actually, what have you got to lose? Right?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Go foraging?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Yes, go forwarding by this book that Oprazer was transformational.
So my third tip is balance like that, intention and control.
So a question I always come to myself with every
week is what.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Does good look like?
Speaker 4 (23:34):
So if I'm going to finish this week or this
day as well, and know that I've had a really
good day and I can clock off and be satisfied
with what I've done, what does good look like? And
so then I've got my top three or four things
that have to do that's so good.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
And so my last one is boundaries.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Oh, I hate that one.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
I know it's the hardest one.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I actual there's someone who's like such a perm. I
just want to know what everyone's doing. I know, I
mean everyone's business. Yeah, you're like, I'll just find out
this one more thing.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Boundaries.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
I think the reason we hate the word is because
it feels really restrictive. It's like when you were saying before,
like someone told me I can't work. But at some
point you realize that work is more of a marathon,
not a sprint, and if we treat it like a sprint, they.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Were just going to be exhausted the whole time.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?
Speaker 4 (24:17):
Yeah, you enjoy it like you should be able to
enjoy work. And so if you think about it that way,
then the boundaries become why do I need these boundaries?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Like?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Do I need them so my work can be more sustainable?
Or I can sustain this high level performance for a while?
Do I need them because I want to dedicate some
time to other areas in my life as well, like
exercise that's also important? And so figure out why it's
important for you, because if you don't do that top
and tail of why, like why with the coach and
then why should I set boundaries? You won't really be
(24:51):
fully committed to any kind of change.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
Ah.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Okay. I do have a few tips that worked for
me personally.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So are they woo wo?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
They're not woo wo? Okay, So I feel like, if
you're listening, definitely take on Lisa's tips. Use mine as
a grain of salt.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Let's go take your pick.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Okay. Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I
mean is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot
of my closest friends are also industry friends who know
about work but also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in
your life who are the complete opposite and hang out
with them a lot. My person I go to when
I feel like I'm working a lot and a lot
and a lot and it's like kind of taking out
(25:27):
my whole life is my nana because firstly, you can't
talk to your nana and be on your phone. That's
so rude. Yeah, and she has no idea about anything.
So we're just talking about the garden, We're talking about
what she watched on Netflix lately. We're talking about new
Spice she found.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
She's probably like, what's a podcast?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
She genuinely for the last seven years things I work
at Facebook excellent.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yep, that works because I.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Told her one of my articles one on Facebook, and
she's like, you work on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yes, yep, yep, let's go with that.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
And the other tip is fake holidays. So what I
mean by this, you knowing you're a workaholic is really hard.
Like even like what I do when I go on
holidays or when I'm off on the weekend, I delete
my email and my Slack from my phone. Okay, Still,
I will have these little times where I'll be on
the toilet or no one's around me, and I'll like
(26:17):
quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer, check something.
What I do in some situations, it's like, say it's
a weekend, I tell work that I'm going to be
away in a place where there's no reception.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
So, and it's not just telling them as in like
don't message me, but it's like telling yourself like, yes,
you've given yourself allowance to actually delete those apps and
not check your phone over the weekend because people will
definitely not message you. Now, it's like giving you like
it's fine, people aren't going to message you personally, they
won't message you on the weekend, but now they definitely
won't because you told them I have no reception exactly.
(26:51):
So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting? Like the stories
we tell ourselves as well?
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And how much we can you're convinced yourself if it works,
do it.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of
the workaholic, where you feel like hobbies are waste of
time and you want to work instead. Are phone free hobbies.
So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby.
Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where
you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Oh, quickly check you computer.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
I try to find hobbies where you physic can't do that.
And one of mine is I used to play piano
when I was younger, and I've started taking it up
again on you, so I'm playing piano. You actually can't
check your phone when you're playing piano. It's really hard.
And then if you have those like work a whole
tendencies where you just want to achieve something and be
good at it, just make finishing that piano piece that thing, yes,
(27:39):
and just tell yourself that if I finish this, if
I do that, then that's something I've achieved. And then
you haven't thought about work for like an hour.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Like it's so nice, like it's the one thing that
I can do where like you physically can't think about
anything else because then you're stuff it up exactly. It's
just so nice.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
And my last thing is what I brought up before,
it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work
where you do want to work a bit harder, and
pick the times where you can just kind of chill
out a bit.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yes, yeah, I think if we can give everyone like
one useful thing to go away from this with is
if you are feeling like you're part of some of
these workaholic tendencies are calling out to you and the
list of you this year with us before figure out why,
talk to your friends, talk to your mentor get a coach,
and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you
figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change.
(28:29):
It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So good, that is all we have for this week's
episode of BIZ. We know you are juggling deadlines and meetings,
so thank you so much for spending some of your
day with us. We hope these insights help you tackle
your next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence. Plus
for extra content, you can always follow us on Instagram
at biz by Mama Maya for all your weekly workplace insights.
(28:51):
On some behind the scenes we did a very special
little behind the scenes better.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Shoot for you to check out, Oh Yes, Go, give
it a.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Follow, give us a little yeah, tell us how much
you loved it. If you want more of these topics,
you can check out our newsletter as well. It's completely free.
We will put a link in our show notes to that,
and we'll put everything that you want to recap in
that one newsletter. It is such a good asset. Every
time I get it, I'm like, oh my god, I
forgot we covered all of this.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Oh Yes business produced by Georgie Page and Sophie Campbell
with audio by Leah Porges.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
We'll be back in your podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Feed next week with more no nonsense work chat. Until then,
back yourself, ask what you want and remember even the
most confident.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
People are figuring it out as they go. See you
next time. Bye.
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