April 17, 2025 • 18 mins
Do you spend more than you should? Or maybe the opposite and you’ve a tendency to be frugal? ? In this episode, our host Iona Bain is joined by financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal to explore the emotional undercurrents behind our money habits.
From childhood experiences and family dynamics to social media and FOMO, Vicky unpacks the complex psychology that shapes how we think, feel, and behave with money. You’ll hear about the subtle difference between overspending and self-sabotage, how scarcity mindsets can quietly drive our decisions, and why our financial habits are often less about numbers—and more about feelings.
Whether you're a frugal saver or a spontaneous spender, there’s lots of practical insights and empowering advice to help you better understand your relationship with money and how to start building healthier habits today.
Follow Vicky on Instagram @vickyreynalpsychotherapy
You can watch episodes on our YouTube channel
And see behind the scenes content on our TikTok and Instagram
You can play the podcast and find other useful content on L&G’s website:
https://www.legalandgeneral.com/podcasts/a-little-bit-richer
Iona and her guests share their own personal thoughts and opinions in this podcast. These might be different from L&G’s take on things. They give information for a UK audience that’s relevant at the time of recording.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Iona Bain (00:01):
Hello, I'm Iona Bain, and welcome to A Little Bit
Richer, brought to you by Legal and General. Now, author
of Money on Your Mind
Habits Vicky Reynal is here to explain the psychology of
our spending. Vicky is a financial psychotherapist and runs her
own clinic in London. She offers psychological support to people
(00:25):
with money worries, such as overspending or debt, and combines
this with guidance on making healthier money decisions. She also
writes a weekly column for The Daily Mail, answering reader
questions as their financial psychotherapist. Welcome, Vicky.
Vicky Reynal (00:41):
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Iona Bain (00:43):
Firstly, what is financial psychotherapy and how is it different
from financial coaching?
Vicky Reynal (00:50):
What I'm trying to help people do is unpick what
feelings or emotions might be driving their money choices. People
might come because they're overly generous and they don't know
why that is, and they know it's against what's best
in their financial interests but they can't stop themselves. What
I often find is that there's feelings that are unconscious that
(01:12):
are getting in the way. My job is to help
them unpack that and understand it so that they can
change the way they behave with money.
Iona Bain (01:20):
I'm imagining that your upbringing is really important in shaping
your relationship with money. I've heard that you form your
attitude to money by the age of eight. I'm wondering,
is there any truth in that?
Vicky Reynal (01:35):
There is some truth. I wouldn't pinpoint it to a
specific age because I think that a lot of experiences
that we have in later years will shape our relationship
with money in the longterm. Of course, the money lessons
that our parents teach us growing up will have an
impact on our relationship with money. If they tell us, "
Don't be too greedy," or, " Money corrupts you," that will
(01:57):
be in the back of your mind as you're trying
to ask for a raise, for example. But there's a
lot of non- money related experiences when we're young that
will shape what we do with money when we're old.
Let's say you've been bullied a lot in school, or
you felt different, you might find that, as an adult,
you tend to overspend when you're out with friends. It's
(02:20):
because you're trying to fit in.
Iona Bain (02:21):
It's like you're trying to buy acceptance.
Vicky Reynal (02:23):
Exactly. Which isn't about the money lessons learned, it's about
something very different. Or you might see people who really
struggle to spend money on themselves, so they become very
frugal. That might come from a feeling that you're not
really deserving of the good things that money can buy,
that you feel guilty any time you spend anything on
(02:44):
yourself. That might come from experiences growing up in which
maybe your parents were not paying a lot of attention
to you, or harsh teachers, or whatnot, that left you with
a really small confidence in yourself.
Iona Bain (02:57):
And low self-esteem.
Vicky Reynal (02:57):
Exactly.
Iona Bain (02:57):
Someone, I imagine, could be a big spender as an
adult, but maybe their parents are quite frugal actually. Can
you explain why there can be those kinds of differences?
Vicky Reynal (03:08):
Our relationship with money has to do with so many
different psychological factors, like our sense of deservedness, our personality,
which is why you see in families with many children
how siblings might end up having very different attitudes to
money even though they have the same parents teaching the
same lessons. Because what drives our overspending, it could be
(03:29):
coming from social pressures. Lifestyle inflation is very common. That
term basically describes a phenomenon, when your income rises, your
spending rises with it. Your costs go up and you
end up in a worse financial situation on this higher
salary than you before in the first place. Sometimes what's
driving it is internal rather than external. If we don't
(03:51):
feel lovable enough, we might go out there and spend
on maybe beauty products or gadgets. It's that internal insecurity
that might be manifesting through their spending.
Iona Bain (04:03):
Well, speaking of social pressures, they influence our spending behaviors
in so many ways. Can you give me a few
examples?
Vicky Reynal (04:09):
Yes. The fear of missing out is one that particularly
young people often talk about. There's a lot of insecurity,
sometimes of exclusion, sometimes it's about not being able to
feel part of the conversation next time you're with them.
And even fear of rejection or abandonment in some cases,
so you'll do it literally at all costs. You'll go
(04:32):
to that wedding abroad that you know you can't afford.
People can be so ashamed of admitting that they can't
afford something. But actually, what they end up finding most
of the times is that somebody else in that group
is just relieved that they said something.
Iona Bain (04:47):
Yeah.
Vicky Reynal (04:48):
Maybe there is a cheaper restaurant we can go to.
But we often feel ashamed and alone with our money
worries, and that stops us from questioning these social pressures.
Iona Bain (04:59):
And social media as well must be playing quite a
big role. How are you seeing that reflected in the cases
that you deal with?
Vicky Reynal (05:07):
If we are curious about comparing upwards, well, the algorithms
will pick that up and just feed us more of
that content. Which creates an illusion, because what we see
is people spending and we're assuming that they're in a
better financial situation. What we're not seeing is all the
debt that might be sitting behind some of the spending.
(05:28):
We're left with a sense of shame that everybody else
is doing better than us and we need to catch
up, and not a lot of critical thinking goes into
that.
Iona Bain (05:39):
There's also this concept of retail therapy. When does that
become problematic? Why do you think people turn to shopping
so much as a way to self- soothe?
Vicky Reynal (05:51):
Because it can be quite effective in the short term.
When you find something that you like and you buy
it, you get dopamine released in the brain, which means
that you do get a real sensation of feeling better.
Iona Bain (06:03):
You get a high.
Vicky Reynal (06:04):
It also distracts you, let's face it. Then the effect
fades away, and you're left sometimes with the guilt and
regret. But also, the feelings you were trying to avoid
are still there, be it the sadness, be it the
loneliness, the stress, whatever it was. Isn't it better to
just deal with the roots of the problem, rather than
(06:27):
trying to fix it with a quick boost that then will
leave you feeling worse?
Iona Bain (06:31):
Does it take quite a long time for people to
accept that they might have a problem with overspending?
Vicky Reynal (06:36):
There is a lot of denial around it. We can
justify it in our minds and think that it's normal.
I would invite people to think about what's this about?
Why did I have to go out there and spend?
Really acknowledge the cost, which is not just financial. It's
also all the anxiety it leaves people with.
Iona Bain (06:55):
Absolutely. In your book, you make a distinction between overspending
and financial self- sabotage, which is really interesting. Can you
tell me a bit more about why there's a difference
between the two?
Vicky Reynal (07:08):
Overspending can have so many different sources. One of the
reasons why we might be doing it is because we're
unconsciously trying to get into financial trouble. I've seen people,
for example, who were so scared of moving out of
their parents house, of becoming financially dependent, they kept spending
all their money, running out, so that they would have an
(07:31):
excuse to stay home. Another example that I've seen was
one young man who kept running out of money in
the first two weeks of the month. We were trying
to spot patterns. The question that unlocked the case, so
to speak, was when I asked, " Well, what do you
do when you run out of money?" He said, " I
call my dad." I said, " Okay, how's that relationship?" " Well,
(07:53):
I never speak to him anymore now that my parents
divorce."
Iona Bain (07:57):
Right.
Vicky Reynal (07:57):
You realize, well, that was his motive. This overspending was
all about ruining the financial situation so that he could
still have a relationship with his dad that he didn't
know how to have otherwise.
Iona Bain (08:09):
But once you'd unpacked that, it must have absolutely blown
his mind to realize that that's why he was doing
what he was doing.
Vicky Reynal (08:16):
It opened up a difficult question, which is how can
I have a relationship with my dad outside of this?
We needed to think about ways to build that relationship.
Iona Bain (08:26):
Really, it was more about finding better coping strategies for
that relationship that would then have a positive knock- on
effect for how he was managing his money.
Vicky Reynal (08:34):
Exactly. Overspending is one way to do it, but a
lot of people sabotage their finances by not attending to
them, not talking about money. Suddenly, they're in this big
mess because they weren't opening the bills.
Iona Bain (08:46):
Yeah.
Vicky Reynal (08:46):
Begin to unpack, " What am I gaining from this situation?
Why am I doing this?" It could be because, at
some level, you feel you deserve punishment and that's a
very painful thing to uncover. Certain people might go through
life with the sense that they don't deserve anything good. It
could be because you desire rescue and that makes you
(09:07):
feel looked after by other people.
Iona Bain (09:09):
Do you think sometimes people also fear failing as well?
That might explain why sometimes people don't want to tackle
their finances, because that way, they can't fail at it.
Vicky Reynal (09:20):
That's where sometimes the a- ha moment happens, when they
see that actually, the very thing I was terrified of
is happening through inaction. Is there a way for you
to get more hold of your sense of agency and say, "
Fine. I might not do it perfectly, but doing something
is better than doing nothing." People carry a lot of
(09:42):
shame when it comes to money, and a lot of
fear as well. A lot of times, what helps with
that financial anxiety is knowledge. It's beginning to identify what
is the fear about? A lot of that could be
about not understanding the terminology, or not knowing what the
options are.
Iona Bain (10:01):
And because it can also feel quite overwhelming. But I
guess, you got to start somewhere. Once you actually start
looking into these things, they're probably not as scary as
you think.
Vicky Reynal (10:11):
That's right. In fact, when you look at research, more
than 50% of the population suffers from financial anxiety. The
one thing that really decreases the level of anxiety is
financial literacy. The more we know, the less anxious we
feel about it.
Iona Bain (10:27):
Hear, hear. Knowledge is power. With that in mind, let's
get to know another concept, the scarcity mindset. How does
that lead to unhealthy financial behaviors?
Vicky Reynal (10:39):
Scarcity mindset is the financial equivalent of seeing the glass
half empty.
Iona Bain (10:44):
Right.
Vicky Reynal (10:44):
You're focusing on what you don't have, rather than appreciating
what you have and looking at the potential. A scarcity
mindset can be quite unhelpful because it leaves people feeling
very afraid and insecure financially. Some people, when they feel
that way, they might feel paralyzed, rather than starting with
(11:06):
small steps that can help them feel more financial resilience.
For example, putting away, even if it's five pounds a
week, can start building a safety net that's there for
emergencies. Isn't that better than not doing anything? I've also
seen people becoming very frugal or overworking, accumulating, hoarding money,
(11:31):
unable to enjoy it. Unable to ever feel like they
can stop and take a break, and say no to
a project. It's just that anxiety that it generates when
you feel like there just isn't enough, and you're constantly
battling with the worries about the future.
Iona Bain (11:48):
I'm wondering if Ebeneezer Scrooge had the scarcity mindset. If
he was a real person, he would do.
Vicky Reynal (11:55):
Absolutely. What you want is the opposite, the abundance mindset.
Which is one in which you can feel satisfied as
much as one can when it comes to money, but
at least you can appreciate that you have enough to
be doing certain things. Part of the definition of financial
wellbeing is about feeling happy and in control of your
(12:16):
financial choices. There's things that you can do to improve
your situation. But we can also get creative and think, "
Well, maybe there is a little side gig I can start." I don't know, "
I can sell a few things on Vinted or eBay."
Or maybe I can start tutoring to get some extra
cash. When we become paralyzed by fear, it stops any
(12:38):
creative thinking and that's what we need to get hold
of. What can I do?
Iona Bain (12:42):
Can people start to want more money because they feel
that what they have is never enough? Is that also
an example of a scarcity mindset?
Vicky Reynal (12:51):
Well, yes. It's a result of it. The problem is
that the goalpost keeps moving. If you don't get to
a place in which you can appreciate what you have
and work with those fears, reality check them. Am I
catastrophizing when I feel I don't have enough? Then you
(13:11):
won't be able to move past that, and there isn't
enough money in the world that will help you feel
safe enough if that sense of unsafety is coming from
somewhere else that isn't just financial.
Iona Bain (13:23):
Yes, because we do hear about incredibly wealthy people seemingly
never satisfied with how much money they have. But is
there some truth in the idea that, once you get
to that point, you're no longer satisfied with what you've
got? You're just thinking about what you can get next.
Vicky Reynal (13:40):
I think it comes down to what is wealth for
you, can you define that? Sometimes we get stuck thinking
that things will make us happy. But actually, when you
sit and think about the things that you value, it
might be time with family and friends.
Iona Bain (13:55):
Yeah.
Vicky Reynal (13:56):
Sometimes when you are stuck in this greedy pursuit of
wealth, it really begs the question, well, have you attached
more to money than it can actually deliver to you?
Is it that you're imagining it will make you more
lovable, it will attract more friends? There's all these symbolic
meanings that we give to money, and then some people
(14:18):
have the fortune or misfortune of finding out when they
have enough wealth that actually money didn't deliver on its
promise.
Iona Bain (14:25):
Yeah, you never want to get to that point where
you work so hard, and then you realize actually, it
wasn't the money that I needed after all, it was something
else. Yeah. For those listening who think that they might
have a scarcity mindset, what would you recommend for them,
in terms of turning that around and creating more of
an abundance mindset?
Vicky Reynal (14:44):
One thing is to catch yourself thinking about what you
don't have and try to very actively just shift what
you're focusing on to what you have. You might write
a gratitude journal about all the things that the money
that you have spent so far has helped you enjoy,
(15:04):
be it holidays or education. Some people find journaling really
helpful and it can be jotting the patterns. Or even,
just brainstorming with open questions. When I think about money,
I feel X. Or even going back to the first
money memories, that can be quite insightful. If all you
(15:25):
remember was parents taking a deep sigh at the till,
then you might begin to understand why you avoid the
topic of money. Or if you watched them argue about
it a lot when you were little, then you might
be avoiding the topic in your relationship. But there's a
lot of other things that can keep fueling this scarcity
(15:45):
mindset, like too much social media exposure. Are you always
looking at what other people have and comparing yourself unfairly
to that? Well, maybe try to do less of that.
Sometimes it's also about watching out what we read, because
there's a lot of news that maybe end up making
you feel more anxious. Choose reading that is more nurturing,
(16:08):
in which you're actually learning how you can improve your
situation, rather than dwelling into how much worse things could
get. Paying attention to all these things can really shift
your perspective onto what is within your control, what you
can do differently.
Iona Bain (16:27):
Absolutely. One of my mottos is focus on what's doable.
We can't achieve a perfect scenario with our finances, but
there are things that we can do. It's about getting
on with those things.
Vicky Reynal (16:37):
Yeah.
Iona Bain (16:38):
Can you suggest three simple money habits that will make
us feel more secure and satisfied when it comes to
money?
Vicky Reynal (16:45):
Well, money is still a big taboo. I would say
the first one is talk about it with people you
trust. If you're worried about money, why not open up to
somebody? You might find that they either have the same
worries, or might have some information that is useful. Talking
about it can help you make sense of things. My
second tip would be create a dedicated time in which
(17:08):
you attend to finances. That's helpful for people on all
ends of the spectrum. Find a time, maybe in the
week or in the month, in which you will review
your finances, maybe set some goals or look at your
accounts, whatever it is, and don't miss it. If you're
a couple, maybe it can be a money date in
(17:29):
which you jointly do that and talk about your finances.
Finally, I would say be curious about why you do
what you do with money. Pick up on the patterns. "
Oh, I always overspend when I'm out with friends." Or, "
It's always on a Sunday when I'm feeling lonely." I
think start by asking yourself why more often. That would
(17:51):
be my third tip.
Iona Bain (17:52):
Vicky, this has been a fascinating conversation.
Vicky Reynal (17:55):
Oh, thank you very much.
Iona Bain (17:58):
Thank you so much, Vicky. Lots of a- ha moments
there, for sure. Next time on the show, I'll be
joined by Helen Tupper from Amazing If to talk about
why our career paths need to be less linear and
more squiggly. I'd love it if you could follow the
podcast, leave us a review, and help others get a
little bit richer, too. You can keep up with the
show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram @ legalandgeneral. Thanks for listening.
(18:22):
Until next time, see you soon.
Hello, I'm Iona Bain, and welcome to A Little Bit
Richer, brought to you by Legal and General. Now, author
of Money on Your Mind
Habits Vicky Reynal is here to explain the psychology of
our spending. Vicky is a financial psychotherapist and runs her
own clinic in London. She offers psychological support to people
(00:25):
with money worries, such as overspending or debt, and combines
this with guidance on making healthier money decisions. She also
writes a weekly column for The Daily Mail, answering reader
questions as their financial psychotherapist. Welcome, Vicky.
Vicky Reynal (00:41):
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Iona Bain (00:43):
Firstly, what is financial psychotherapy and how is it different
from financial coaching?
Vicky Reynal (00:50):
What I'm trying to help people do is unpick what
feelings or emotions might be driving their money choices. People
might come because they're overly generous and they don't know
why that is, and they know it's against what's best
in their financial interests but they can't stop themselves. What
I often find is that there's feelings that are unconscious that
(01:12):
are getting in the way. My job is to help
them unpack that and understand it so that they can
change the way they behave with money.
Iona Bain (01:20):
I'm imagining that your upbringing is really important in shaping
your relationship with money. I've heard that you form your
attitude to money by the age of eight. I'm wondering,
is there any truth in that?
Vicky Reynal (01:35):
There is some truth. I wouldn't pinpoint it to a
specific age because I think that a lot of experiences
that we have in later years will shape our relationship
with money in the longterm. Of course, the money lessons
that our parents teach us growing up will have an
impact on our relationship with money. If they tell us, "
Don't be too greedy," or, " Money corrupts you," that will
(01:57):
be in the back of your mind as you're trying
to ask for a raise, for example. But there's a
lot of non- money related experiences when we're young that
will shape what we do with money when we're old.
Let's say you've been bullied a lot in school, or
you felt different, you might find that, as an adult,
you tend to overspend when you're out with friends. It's
(02:20):
because you're trying to fit in.
Iona Bain (02:21):
It's like you're trying to buy acceptance.
Vicky Reynal (02:23):
Exactly. Which isn't about the money lessons learned, it's about
something very different. Or you might see people who really
struggle to spend money on themselves, so they become very
frugal. That might come from a feeling that you're not
really deserving of the good things that money can buy,
that you feel guilty any time you spend anything on
(02:44):
yourself. That might come from experiences growing up in which
maybe your parents were not paying a lot of attention
to you, or harsh teachers, or whatnot, that left you with
a really small confidence in yourself.
Iona Bain (02:57):
And low self-esteem.
Vicky Reynal (02:57):
Exactly.
Iona Bain (02:57):
Someone, I imagine, could be a big spender as an
adult, but maybe their parents are quite frugal actually. Can
you explain why there can be those kinds of differences?
Vicky Reynal (03:08):
Our relationship with money has to do with so many
different psychological factors, like our sense of deservedness, our personality,
which is why you see in families with many children
how siblings might end up having very different attitudes to
money even though they have the same parents teaching the
same lessons. Because what drives our overspending, it could be
(03:29):
coming from social pressures. Lifestyle inflation is very common. That
term basically describes a phenomenon, when your income rises, your
spending rises with it. Your costs go up and you
end up in a worse financial situation on this higher
salary than you before in the first place. Sometimes what's
driving it is internal rather than external. If we don't
(03:51):
feel lovable enough, we might go out there and spend
on maybe beauty products or gadgets. It's that internal insecurity
that might be manifesting through their spending.
Iona Bain (04:03):
Well, speaking of social pressures, they influence our spending behaviors
in so many ways. Can you give me a few
examples?
Vicky Reynal (04:09):
Yes. The fear of missing out is one that particularly
young people often talk about. There's a lot of insecurity,
sometimes of exclusion, sometimes it's about not being able to
feel part of the conversation next time you're with them.
And even fear of rejection or abandonment in some cases,
so you'll do it literally at all costs. You'll go
(04:32):
to that wedding abroad that you know you can't afford.
People can be so ashamed of admitting that they can't
afford something. But actually, what they end up finding most
of the times is that somebody else in that group
is just relieved that they said something.
Iona Bain (04:47):
Yeah.
Vicky Reynal (04:48):
Maybe there is a cheaper restaurant we can go to.
But we often feel ashamed and alone with our money
worries, and that stops us from questioning these social pressures.
Iona Bain (04:59):
And social media as well must be playing quite a
big role. How are you seeing that reflected in the cases
that you deal with?
Vicky Reynal (05:07):
If we are curious about comparing upwards, well, the algorithms
will pick that up and just feed us more of
that content. Which creates an illusion, because what we see
is people spending and we're assuming that they're in a
better financial situation. What we're not seeing is all the
debt that might be sitting behind some of the spending.
(05:28):
We're left with a sense of shame that everybody else
is doing better than us and we need to catch
up, and not a lot of critical thinking goes into
that.
Iona Bain (05:39):
There's also this concept of retail therapy. When does that
become problematic? Why do you think people turn to shopping
so much as a way to self- soothe?
Vicky Reynal (05:51):
Because it can be quite effective in the short term.
When you find something that you like and you buy
it, you get dopamine released in the brain, which means
that you do get a real sensation of feeling better.
Iona Bain (06:03):
You get a high.
Vicky Reynal (06:04):
It also distracts you, let's face it. Then the effect
fades away, and you're left sometimes with the guilt and
regret. But also, the feelings you were trying to avoid
are still there, be it the sadness, be it the
loneliness, the stress, whatever it was. Isn't it better to
just deal with the roots of the problem, rather than
(06:27):
trying to fix it with a quick boost that then will
leave you feeling worse?
Iona Bain (06:31):
Does it take quite a long time for people to
accept that they might have a problem with overspending?
Vicky Reynal (06:36):
There is a lot of denial around it. We can
justify it in our minds and think that it's normal.
I would invite people to think about what's this about?
Why did I have to go out there and spend?
Really acknowledge the cost, which is not just financial. It's
also all the anxiety it leaves people with.
Iona Bain (06:55):
Absolutely. In your book, you make a distinction between overspending
and financial self- sabotage, which is really interesting. Can you
tell me a bit more about why there's a difference
between the two?
Vicky Reynal (07:08):
Overspending can have so many different sources. One of the
reasons why we might be doing it is because we're
unconsciously trying to get into financial trouble. I've seen people,
for example, who were so scared of moving out of
their parents house, of becoming financially dependent, they kept spending
all their money, running out, so that they would have an
(07:31):
excuse to stay home. Another example that I've seen was
one young man who kept running out of money in
the first two weeks of the month. We were trying
to spot patterns. The question that unlocked the case, so
to speak, was when I asked, " Well, what do you
do when you run out of money?" He said, " I
call my dad." I said, " Okay, how's that relationship?" " Well,
(07:53):
I never speak to him anymore now that my parents
divorce."
Iona Bain (07:57):
Right.
Vicky Reynal (07:57):
You realize, well, that was his motive. This overspending was
all about ruining the financial situation so that he could
still have a relationship with his dad that he didn't
know how to have otherwise.
Iona Bain (08:09):
But once you'd unpacked that, it must have absolutely blown
his mind to realize that that's why he was doing
what he was doing.
Vicky Reynal (08:16):
It opened up a difficult question, which is how can
I have a relationship with my dad outside of this?
We needed to think about ways to build that relationship.
Iona Bain (08:26):
Really, it was more about finding better coping strategies for
that relationship that would then have a positive knock- on
effect for how he was managing his money.
Vicky Reynal (08:34):
Exactly. Overspending is one way to do it, but a
lot of people sabotage their finances by not attending to
them, not talking about money. Suddenly, they're in this big
mess because they weren't opening the bills.
Iona Bain (08:46):
Yeah.
Vicky Reynal (08:46):
Begin to unpack, " What am I gaining from this situation?
Why am I doing this?" It could be because, at
some level, you feel you deserve punishment and that's a
very painful thing to uncover. Certain people might go through
life with the sense that they don't deserve anything good. It
could be because you desire rescue and that makes you
(09:07):
feel looked after by other people.
Iona Bain (09:09):
Do you think sometimes people also fear failing as well?
That might explain why sometimes people don't want to tackle
their finances, because that way, they can't fail at it.
Vicky Reynal (09:20):
That's where sometimes the a- ha moment happens, when they
see that actually, the very thing I was terrified of
is happening through inaction. Is there a way for you
to get more hold of your sense of agency and say, "
Fine. I might not do it perfectly, but doing something
is better than doing nothing." People carry a lot of
(09:42):
shame when it comes to money, and a lot of
fear as well. A lot of times, what helps with
that financial anxiety is knowledge. It's beginning to identify what
is the fear about? A lot of that could be
about not understanding the terminology, or not knowing what the
options are.
Iona Bain (10:01):
And because it can also feel quite overwhelming. But I
guess, you got to start somewhere. Once you actually start
looking into these things, they're probably not as scary as
you think.
Vicky Reynal (10:11):
That's right. In fact, when you look at research, more
than 50% of the population suffers from financial anxiety. The
one thing that really decreases the level of anxiety is
financial literacy. The more we know, the less anxious we
feel about it.
Iona Bain (10:27):
Hear, hear. Knowledge is power. With that in mind, let's
get to know another concept, the scarcity mindset. How does
that lead to unhealthy financial behaviors?
Vicky Reynal (10:39):
Scarcity mindset is the financial equivalent of seeing the glass
half empty.
Iona Bain (10:44):
Right.
Vicky Reynal (10:44):
You're focusing on what you don't have, rather than appreciating
what you have and looking at the potential. A scarcity
mindset can be quite unhelpful because it leaves people feeling
very afraid and insecure financially. Some people, when they feel
that way, they might feel paralyzed, rather than starting with
(11:06):
small steps that can help them feel more financial resilience.
For example, putting away, even if it's five pounds a
week, can start building a safety net that's there for
emergencies. Isn't that better than not doing anything? I've also
seen people becoming very frugal or overworking, accumulating, hoarding money,
(11:31):
unable to enjoy it. Unable to ever feel like they
can stop and take a break, and say no to
a project. It's just that anxiety that it generates when
you feel like there just isn't enough, and you're constantly
battling with the worries about the future.
Iona Bain (11:48):
I'm wondering if Ebeneezer Scrooge had the scarcity mindset. If
he was a real person, he would do.
Vicky Reynal (11:55):
Absolutely. What you want is the opposite, the abundance mindset.
Which is one in which you can feel satisfied as
much as one can when it comes to money, but
at least you can appreciate that you have enough to
be doing certain things. Part of the definition of financial
wellbeing is about feeling happy and in control of your
(12:16):
financial choices. There's things that you can do to improve
your situation. But we can also get creative and think, "
Well, maybe there is a little side gig I can start." I don't know, "
I can sell a few things on Vinted or eBay."
Or maybe I can start tutoring to get some extra
cash. When we become paralyzed by fear, it stops any
(12:38):
creative thinking and that's what we need to get hold
of. What can I do?
Iona Bain (12:42):
Can people start to want more money because they feel
that what they have is never enough? Is that also
an example of a scarcity mindset?
Vicky Reynal (12:51):
Well, yes. It's a result of it. The problem is
that the goalpost keeps moving. If you don't get to
a place in which you can appreciate what you have
and work with those fears, reality check them. Am I
catastrophizing when I feel I don't have enough? Then you
(13:11):
won't be able to move past that, and there isn't
enough money in the world that will help you feel
safe enough if that sense of unsafety is coming from
somewhere else that isn't just financial.
Iona Bain (13:23):
Yes, because we do hear about incredibly wealthy people seemingly
never satisfied with how much money they have. But is
there some truth in the idea that, once you get
to that point, you're no longer satisfied with what you've
got? You're just thinking about what you can get next.
Vicky Reynal (13:40):
I think it comes down to what is wealth for
you, can you define that? Sometimes we get stuck thinking
that things will make us happy. But actually, when you
sit and think about the things that you value, it
might be time with family and friends.
Iona Bain (13:55):
Yeah.
Vicky Reynal (13:56):
Sometimes when you are stuck in this greedy pursuit of
wealth, it really begs the question, well, have you attached
more to money than it can actually deliver to you?
Is it that you're imagining it will make you more
lovable, it will attract more friends? There's all these symbolic
meanings that we give to money, and then some people
(14:18):
have the fortune or misfortune of finding out when they
have enough wealth that actually money didn't deliver on its
promise.
Iona Bain (14:25):
Yeah, you never want to get to that point where
you work so hard, and then you realize actually, it
wasn't the money that I needed after all, it was something
else. Yeah. For those listening who think that they might
have a scarcity mindset, what would you recommend for them,
in terms of turning that around and creating more of
an abundance mindset?
Vicky Reynal (14:44):
One thing is to catch yourself thinking about what you
don't have and try to very actively just shift what
you're focusing on to what you have. You might write
a gratitude journal about all the things that the money
that you have spent so far has helped you enjoy,
(15:04):
be it holidays or education. Some people find journaling really
helpful and it can be jotting the patterns. Or even,
just brainstorming with open questions. When I think about money,
I feel X. Or even going back to the first
money memories, that can be quite insightful. If all you
(15:25):
remember was parents taking a deep sigh at the till,
then you might begin to understand why you avoid the
topic of money. Or if you watched them argue about
it a lot when you were little, then you might
be avoiding the topic in your relationship. But there's a
lot of other things that can keep fueling this scarcity
(15:45):
mindset, like too much social media exposure. Are you always
looking at what other people have and comparing yourself unfairly
to that? Well, maybe try to do less of that.
Sometimes it's also about watching out what we read, because
there's a lot of news that maybe end up making
you feel more anxious. Choose reading that is more nurturing,
(16:08):
in which you're actually learning how you can improve your
situation, rather than dwelling into how much worse things could
get. Paying attention to all these things can really shift
your perspective onto what is within your control, what you
can do differently.
Iona Bain (16:27):
Absolutely. One of my mottos is focus on what's doable.
We can't achieve a perfect scenario with our finances, but
there are things that we can do. It's about getting
on with those things.
Vicky Reynal (16:37):
Yeah.
Iona Bain (16:38):
Can you suggest three simple money habits that will make
us feel more secure and satisfied when it comes to
money?
Vicky Reynal (16:45):
Well, money is still a big taboo. I would say
the first one is talk about it with people you
trust. If you're worried about money, why not open up to
somebody? You might find that they either have the same
worries, or might have some information that is useful. Talking
about it can help you make sense of things. My
second tip would be create a dedicated time in which
(17:08):
you attend to finances. That's helpful for people on all
ends of the spectrum. Find a time, maybe in the
week or in the month, in which you will review
your finances, maybe set some goals or look at your
accounts, whatever it is, and don't miss it. If you're
a couple, maybe it can be a money date in
(17:29):
which you jointly do that and talk about your finances.
Finally, I would say be curious about why you do
what you do with money. Pick up on the patterns. "
Oh, I always overspend when I'm out with friends." Or, "
It's always on a Sunday when I'm feeling lonely." I
think start by asking yourself why more often. That would
(17:51):
be my third tip.
Iona Bain (17:52):
Vicky, this has been a fascinating conversation.
Vicky Reynal (17:55):
Oh, thank you very much.
Iona Bain (17:58):
Thank you so much, Vicky. Lots of a- ha moments
there, for sure. Next time on the show, I'll be
joined by Helen Tupper from Amazing If to talk about
why our career paths need to be less linear and
more squiggly. I'd love it if you could follow the
podcast, leave us a review, and help others get a
little bit richer, too. You can keep up with the
show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram @ legalandgeneral. Thanks for listening.
(18:22):
Until next time, see you soon.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.