March 20, 2025 • 12 mins
In a post-pandemic world, with the rise of working from home and flexible hours, there’s a whole new meaning to work life balance.
In this episode, Joe Ryle from the Four Day Week Foundation joins our host Iona Bain to discuss how changing work patterns can lead to a healthier work culture with increased productivity and reduced burnout.
They dive deep into the role of technology in blurring boundaries and offer practical advice on how you can begin advocating for more balance in your work life.
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Iona and her guests share their own personal thoughts and opinions in this podcast. These might be different from Legal & General’s take on things. They give information for a UK audience that’s relevant at the time of recording.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Iona Bain (00:02):
We all know striking the balance between work and life
is hard. With hybrid working, it can be tricky to
create boundaries where your professional time ends and your personal
time begins. The way we're working is undoubtedly changing and
with flexible working and the four- day week on the
rise, there are lots of ways we can increase our
productivity while avoiding burnout. I'm Iona Bain and welcome to
(00:25):
A Little Bit Richer, brought to you by Legal and
General. Here to chat with me today about getting the
right work- life balance is Joe Ryle from the Four
Day Week Foundation, the UK's National Independent Campaigning Organization that
advocates for a reduction in the maximum working week from
48 to 32 hours by 2030, and for people to
(00:47):
request a four- day working week with no loss of
pay. That's quite an ask. So to give us a
bit more information about how that might work, welcome, Joe.
So we hear this term work- life balance a lot.
What does it mean and how do you think the definition
has evolved over time?
Joe Ryle (01:06):
We used to work six- day working week a hundred
years ago.
Iona Bain (01:09):
So working on a Saturday?
Joe Ryle (01:10):
It took the best part of two decades. They were
like progressive business leaders like Ford Motor Company in America,
also trade unions pushing for this and they won the
weekend. My personal take on it as someone who was
working five days a week, six days a week for
a number of years, it didn't feel like a good balance.
Iona Bain (01:26):
Why do you think this whole topic of work- life
balance has come to the fore in recent times? When
I was younger, when I was starting out in my
career, I did hear about a work- life balance, but
it felt like quite a distant concept. It didn't feel
like something that was really available to me because the
idea was you work hard, you get on and you
(01:46):
get your head down. So why do you think work- life
balance has become a more, if you like, popular concept?
Joe Ryle (01:52):
So I think the Covid pandemic has been a catalyst for
totally rethinking the way that we work. I think that's
because we do have an unhealthy culture, which is a
culture of being addicted to really long working hours. The
data does speak for itself. We work some of the
longest full- time working hours across Europe, but at the
same time we have one of the least productive economies.
So what that suggests is that all these long working
(02:15):
hours we're not producing good results for the economy and
also not producing good results for workers.
Iona Bain (02:19):
I've definitely been coming across more burnout in my career
and in my life. Why do you think we are seeing more
cases of burnout?
Joe Ryle (02:27):
On a serious point, it is worrying that we do
have millions of workers that are getting burnt out on
a more regular basis. We have three million workers who
are out of work long- term sick. I think there
is a relationship there with this long working hours culture
we have. It's not good for our wellbeing. I also
think we've had this explosion of technology, smartphones, which has
created this always on culture where you never switch off.
(02:50):
You take your work to bed with you, you take
it back home. If you're on your phone, you can
respond at any point.
Iona Bain (02:54):
Yeah, so I mean, how would we define burnout?
Joe Ryle (02:57):
I think the official definition of burnout is stress when you're
just physically, emotionally exhausted. When we ran the biggest pilot
of a four- day working week in the world so
far, so it was 2022, we had 61 companies that
took part. So it was about 3000 employees. There was a
71% overall reduction in burnout, so people feeling a lot
less stressed. I think there was a recent survey which
(03:18):
came out which was across Europe, I think 20 to 30,
000 workers were asked about their motivations for what they're
looking for from their job. For the first time work-
life balance is higher than better pay. So actually for
the first time workers across Europe are, when they're going
into the workplace, they're looking for a work- life balance.
Now that's a significant shift and I do think that's
largely been driven by conversations that have happened since the
(03:40):
pandemic that have forced us to change. It has been
a hundred years of nine to five, five- day working
week, and the world of work has obviously transformed since
then. It's very different from that more agricultural or industrial era.
Iona Bain (03:52):
It's fascinating that people would put that work- life balance
ahead of income, which you would imagine would solve a
lot of people's problems, especially in the cost of living
crisis in this general economic environment. The feeling is that
more money would be really, really helpful and yet work-
life balance comes ahead.
Joe Ryle (04:08):
Yeah. Well, I mean if you've got loads of money
but no time, then you can't really enjoy your life,
can you?
Iona Bain (04:12):
I think a really big question that's on people's minds
at the moment. Are we going to see at some
point a return to the full- time, five day a week,
in the office working model?
Joe Ryle (04:23):
I don't think we're going back. If you look at
the polling and survey data on this, no one wants
to go back to five days a week in the
office. I do think we are moving forward to a
culture of work where workers have a bit more freedom,
a bit more autonomy from work.
Iona Bain (04:35):
When I think back to the early part of my
career, if I asked to work from home one day a
week, it was like I was asking to be paid
a million pounds a year. It just seemed absolutely impossible.
Now it does feel like that has become more normalized.
I guess the concern is that there are those big
employers that can basically say, well, if you want a
job with us, you've got to come in five days
(04:55):
a week and that's all there is to it.
Joe Ryle (04:57):
Perhaps for now, they can still get away with that
in some cases, but to normalize that workers can request
a better balance in their lives where they've got more
time for childcare, friends, hobbies, whatever it is in their
life. We are in a place where we've had decades
and decades of a culture that's been addicted to work
and that's been put front and center. We're at the
very beginning of that shift. If you look at also some
(05:19):
of the survey data, it is the young generation coming
through now who are saying, I don't want work to
dominate my life in the same way that maybe it
has done for their grandparents' generation, their parents' generation. So
there is that cultural shift taking place, but it will
take time. These things don't change overnight.
Iona Bain (05:33):
That's a very interesting shift because as I said, in
the early part of my career, it was all about
hard work and there will be people who will say
that work is a joy. If you can find a
job that you really love you'll want to go in
and do it five days a week and you'll want
to work as hard as you possibly can, what would
you say to that?
Joe Ryle (05:51):
You can actually work harder in four days rather than
five. Spreading the working week over 40 hours when workers
are better rested, when they have a better work- life
balance, you come back in a Monday morning refreshed, more
motivated and you can perform better. A rested worker is a
better worker.
Iona Bain (06:07):
That makes a lot of sense. I guess there's always
that concern that if you're trying to squeeze five days
into four, then actually that puts a lot of pressure
on those employees then to fit a pint into a
quart bottle, if you see what I mean, and to
try to fit more into less time. Could that cause
more stress in the long term?
Joe Ryle (06:26):
I think it's something we need to be wary of and
they're not going to pretend everything about a four- day
working week is perfect. There may be some downsides there
if workers need to figure out the reframing of the
work that they're doing.
Iona Bain (06:37):
So what are some of the downsides of a four-
day working week and how could those be managed?
Joe Ryle (06:43):
Definitely some of the downsides we hear about are there
not being enough time for staff being together, that social
time. We have seen that managed by companies being really
strict about putting something in the diary like once every
month to make sure that does happen. There's certainly industries
and sectors where it is going to be more complex
to implement. It is also about working differently. We often
inherit ways of working that go back decades and actually
(07:06):
we've found the newer startup organization are much more agile
and able to adjust to something like a four- day
week much easier.
Iona Bain (07:14):
Is there a particular group of people or are there
particular groups of people for whom this could be quite
a good model?
Joe Ryle (07:22):
We think in the long term, the vast majority of the economy
could shift to a four- day working week, but we've
been honest about the fact it is going to be
more difficult in certain sectors, in certain areas of the
economy. It will be more complex to implement and we
might have to be more creative about how we implement
it. I mean, I do also want to stress that
working a four- day week isn't just about doing everything that
you should do in a five- day week, but packing
it into four days. It is that opportunity to work
(07:44):
differently. To really look at the work that everyone's doing, bring
the team together, to work more strategically and work more
effectively and to get the rewards of people being better
rested and then being more effective.
Iona Bain (07:55):
So could we see a rise in things like job
sharing for instance? Could that be a potential solution to
some of those challenges that you might face with a four-
day week?
Joe Ryle (08:04):
I think we'll see more and more of that. I
think ultimately this wider conversation about flexible working, four- day
working week, what it's all about is that workers want
more freedom and more autonomy from work, and that will probably
happen in different ways. I think there will be job sharing, there'll
be more part- time work. We've also got the elephant
in the room as well as artificial intelligence coming in, which
is doing a lot of the tasks that we do
(08:25):
in our day- to- day jobs. So our argument on
that was, well, if we want workers and people to
benefit from AI, then we should all be having a
shorter working week because it's doing some of the tasks
that we used to be able to do.
Iona Bain (08:36):
So if you are keen to work fewer hours, what
are the options available for you? How can you bring
that idea of working more flexibly or working less with
your employer? I can imagine it might be quite a tricky
conversation to have.
Joe Ryle (08:50):
Yeah, the government have strengthened the flexible working rights in
the last couple of years, so anyone as an employee
can now request more flexible way of working. Now that's not a
four day, 32- hour working week as we advocate for,
but there's different versions of flexible working weeks that you
can offer to get a week that is more balanced.
Iona Bain (09:09):
So let's chat through that because it may be that
a four- day week would not be on the table
for certain employees. A nurse, for instance. Could there be other
things that they could ask for instead that would help
them achieve that balance and those boundaries in their life?
Joe Ryle (09:24):
You can ask for job sharing, part- time work, compressed
hours where you're doing the same amount of hours, but
over a four- day week, you can also ask for a nine-
day fortnight. Actually increasingly, we're seeing hundreds of companies move
to nine day fortnight rather than a four- day week,
which is halfway there. So they'll reduce the working hours,
but one week they're doing five days and the next
week they're doing four.
Iona Bain (09:41):
That's interesting. I haven't come across the nine- day fortnight
as much, but maybe that's a bit more of a
halfway house.
Joe Ryle (09:48):
Yes.
Iona Bain (09:49):
Another question I have is that what are people spending
that day off doing? I'm quite curious because I've read
about quite recently that there's been a big rise in
the number of people going to the golf club or
going to the hairdressers or doing things that they would
otherwise do on the weekend midweek. So a lot of
these businesses within the economy are seeing a bit of
a midweek boom. So I think that's quite interesting and
(10:12):
it points to the fact that people maybe are making
the most of that day off, but what are you
seeing in terms of how people are using that day?
Joe Ryle (10:19):
I think it's a real mix. Some of the anecdotal feedback we
get back is people just doing their life admin, catching
up on the things as you say, they haven't had
time to do in the week. In Valencia, the government
trialed a four- day week every Friday for a month.
I think it was in April. It was interesting that
that study found that actually the hospitality service sector really
boomed on that Friday. So I do think there's real,
(10:40):
real benefits of this for hospitality industry.
Iona Bain (10:42):
Mind you, I imagine in Valencia just sitting outside with
a coffee or a beer, it's going to be a
bit more attractive than here in the UK, right?
Joe Ryle (10:49):
These days it's hot in July and August.
Iona Bain (10:51):
Well, true. Yeah, you can make the most of it,
I'm sure. So, Joe, what are the three simple things
that someone can do to maintain healthy boundaries at work
whatever their working model is?
Joe Ryle (11:03):
So I think a big one is being really aware
of your screen time use and trying to set some
clear boundaries to when work starts and ends. The danger
of working from home is that actually those lines are
so much more blurry.
Iona Bain (11:16):
Oh, absolutely.
Joe Ryle (11:16):
Also having time where potentially you put your phone away
from your desk. Maybe you're not even checking your emails,
you're just really focusing on the work that you need
to get done. Two, take your annual leave. Take your
bank holidays. Workers have fought for those over generations. Take
them and enjoy that time off. Also take a lunch
break. There's too many people, including myself sometimes, who will
sit at your computer screen for an hour with a
(11:37):
sandwich next to you and that's not good either.
Iona Bain (11:39):
No. Try to avoid al desko.
Joe Ryle (11:41):
Yeah, exactly. Get to the park, have a walk.
Iona Bain (11:43):
That's a great idea. Yeah. Really thought- provoking. Lots to
consider. Thank you, Joe. Next time, financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal
will be here to help us work out the psychology
behind our spending. Sounds very intriguing. I'd love it if
you could follow the podcast, leave us a review, and
help others get a little bit richer too. You can
(12:06):
keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram at
Legal and General. Thanks for listening. Until next time, see
you soon.
We all know striking the balance between work and life
is hard. With hybrid working, it can be tricky to
create boundaries where your professional time ends and your personal
time begins. The way we're working is undoubtedly changing and
with flexible working and the four- day week on the
rise, there are lots of ways we can increase our
productivity while avoiding burnout. I'm Iona Bain and welcome to
(00:25):
A Little Bit Richer, brought to you by Legal and
General. Here to chat with me today about getting the
right work- life balance is Joe Ryle from the Four
Day Week Foundation, the UK's National Independent Campaigning Organization that
advocates for a reduction in the maximum working week from
48 to 32 hours by 2030, and for people to
(00:47):
request a four- day working week with no loss of
pay. That's quite an ask. So to give us a
bit more information about how that might work, welcome, Joe.
So we hear this term work- life balance a lot.
What does it mean and how do you think the definition
has evolved over time?
Joe Ryle (01:06):
We used to work six- day working week a hundred
years ago.
Iona Bain (01:09):
So working on a Saturday?
Joe Ryle (01:10):
It took the best part of two decades. They were
like progressive business leaders like Ford Motor Company in America,
also trade unions pushing for this and they won the
weekend. My personal take on it as someone who was
working five days a week, six days a week for
a number of years, it didn't feel like a good balance.
Iona Bain (01:26):
Why do you think this whole topic of work- life
balance has come to the fore in recent times? When
I was younger, when I was starting out in my
career, I did hear about a work- life balance, but
it felt like quite a distant concept. It didn't feel
like something that was really available to me because the
idea was you work hard, you get on and you
(01:46):
get your head down. So why do you think work- life
balance has become a more, if you like, popular concept?
Joe Ryle (01:52):
So I think the Covid pandemic has been a catalyst for
totally rethinking the way that we work. I think that's
because we do have an unhealthy culture, which is a
culture of being addicted to really long working hours. The
data does speak for itself. We work some of the
longest full- time working hours across Europe, but at the
same time we have one of the least productive economies.
So what that suggests is that all these long working
(02:15):
hours we're not producing good results for the economy and
also not producing good results for workers.
Iona Bain (02:19):
I've definitely been coming across more burnout in my career
and in my life. Why do you think we are seeing more
cases of burnout?
Joe Ryle (02:27):
On a serious point, it is worrying that we do
have millions of workers that are getting burnt out on
a more regular basis. We have three million workers who
are out of work long- term sick. I think there
is a relationship there with this long working hours culture
we have. It's not good for our wellbeing. I also
think we've had this explosion of technology, smartphones, which has
created this always on culture where you never switch off.
(02:50):
You take your work to bed with you, you take
it back home. If you're on your phone, you can
respond at any point.
Iona Bain (02:54):
Yeah, so I mean, how would we define burnout?
Joe Ryle (02:57):
I think the official definition of burnout is stress when you're
just physically, emotionally exhausted. When we ran the biggest pilot
of a four- day working week in the world so
far, so it was 2022, we had 61 companies that
took part. So it was about 3000 employees. There was a
71% overall reduction in burnout, so people feeling a lot
less stressed. I think there was a recent survey which
(03:18):
came out which was across Europe, I think 20 to 30,
000 workers were asked about their motivations for what they're
looking for from their job. For the first time work-
life balance is higher than better pay. So actually for
the first time workers across Europe are, when they're going
into the workplace, they're looking for a work- life balance.
Now that's a significant shift and I do think that's
largely been driven by conversations that have happened since the
(03:40):
pandemic that have forced us to change. It has been
a hundred years of nine to five, five- day working
week, and the world of work has obviously transformed since
then. It's very different from that more agricultural or industrial era.
Iona Bain (03:52):
It's fascinating that people would put that work- life balance
ahead of income, which you would imagine would solve a
lot of people's problems, especially in the cost of living
crisis in this general economic environment. The feeling is that
more money would be really, really helpful and yet work-
life balance comes ahead.
Joe Ryle (04:08):
Yeah. Well, I mean if you've got loads of money
but no time, then you can't really enjoy your life,
can you?
Iona Bain (04:12):
I think a really big question that's on people's minds
at the moment. Are we going to see at some
point a return to the full- time, five day a week,
in the office working model?
Joe Ryle (04:23):
I don't think we're going back. If you look at
the polling and survey data on this, no one wants
to go back to five days a week in the
office. I do think we are moving forward to a
culture of work where workers have a bit more freedom,
a bit more autonomy from work.
Iona Bain (04:35):
When I think back to the early part of my
career, if I asked to work from home one day a
week, it was like I was asking to be paid
a million pounds a year. It just seemed absolutely impossible.
Now it does feel like that has become more normalized.
I guess the concern is that there are those big
employers that can basically say, well, if you want a
job with us, you've got to come in five days
(04:55):
a week and that's all there is to it.
Joe Ryle (04:57):
Perhaps for now, they can still get away with that
in some cases, but to normalize that workers can request
a better balance in their lives where they've got more
time for childcare, friends, hobbies, whatever it is in their
life. We are in a place where we've had decades
and decades of a culture that's been addicted to work
and that's been put front and center. We're at the
very beginning of that shift. If you look at also some
(05:19):
of the survey data, it is the young generation coming
through now who are saying, I don't want work to
dominate my life in the same way that maybe it
has done for their grandparents' generation, their parents' generation. So
there is that cultural shift taking place, but it will
take time. These things don't change overnight.
Iona Bain (05:33):
That's a very interesting shift because as I said, in
the early part of my career, it was all about
hard work and there will be people who will say
that work is a joy. If you can find a
job that you really love you'll want to go in
and do it five days a week and you'll want
to work as hard as you possibly can, what would
you say to that?
Joe Ryle (05:51):
You can actually work harder in four days rather than
five. Spreading the working week over 40 hours when workers
are better rested, when they have a better work- life
balance, you come back in a Monday morning refreshed, more
motivated and you can perform better. A rested worker is a
better worker.
Iona Bain (06:07):
That makes a lot of sense. I guess there's always
that concern that if you're trying to squeeze five days
into four, then actually that puts a lot of pressure
on those employees then to fit a pint into a
quart bottle, if you see what I mean, and to
try to fit more into less time. Could that cause
more stress in the long term?
Joe Ryle (06:26):
I think it's something we need to be wary of and
they're not going to pretend everything about a four- day
working week is perfect. There may be some downsides there
if workers need to figure out the reframing of the
work that they're doing.
Iona Bain (06:37):
So what are some of the downsides of a four-
day working week and how could those be managed?
Joe Ryle (06:43):
Definitely some of the downsides we hear about are there
not being enough time for staff being together, that social
time. We have seen that managed by companies being really
strict about putting something in the diary like once every
month to make sure that does happen. There's certainly industries
and sectors where it is going to be more complex
to implement. It is also about working differently. We often
inherit ways of working that go back decades and actually
(07:06):
we've found the newer startup organization are much more agile
and able to adjust to something like a four- day
week much easier.
Iona Bain (07:14):
Is there a particular group of people or are there
particular groups of people for whom this could be quite
a good model?
Joe Ryle (07:22):
We think in the long term, the vast majority of the economy
could shift to a four- day working week, but we've
been honest about the fact it is going to be
more difficult in certain sectors, in certain areas of the
economy. It will be more complex to implement and we
might have to be more creative about how we implement
it. I mean, I do also want to stress that
working a four- day week isn't just about doing everything that
you should do in a five- day week, but packing
it into four days. It is that opportunity to work
(07:44):
differently. To really look at the work that everyone's doing, bring
the team together, to work more strategically and work more
effectively and to get the rewards of people being better
rested and then being more effective.
Iona Bain (07:55):
So could we see a rise in things like job
sharing for instance? Could that be a potential solution to
some of those challenges that you might face with a four-
day week?
Joe Ryle (08:04):
I think we'll see more and more of that. I
think ultimately this wider conversation about flexible working, four- day
working week, what it's all about is that workers want
more freedom and more autonomy from work, and that will probably
happen in different ways. I think there will be job sharing, there'll
be more part- time work. We've also got the elephant
in the room as well as artificial intelligence coming in, which
is doing a lot of the tasks that we do
(08:25):
in our day- to- day jobs. So our argument on
that was, well, if we want workers and people to
benefit from AI, then we should all be having a
shorter working week because it's doing some of the tasks
that we used to be able to do.
Iona Bain (08:36):
So if you are keen to work fewer hours, what
are the options available for you? How can you bring
that idea of working more flexibly or working less with
your employer? I can imagine it might be quite a tricky
conversation to have.
Joe Ryle (08:50):
Yeah, the government have strengthened the flexible working rights in
the last couple of years, so anyone as an employee
can now request more flexible way of working. Now that's not a
four day, 32- hour working week as we advocate for,
but there's different versions of flexible working weeks that you
can offer to get a week that is more balanced.
Iona Bain (09:09):
So let's chat through that because it may be that
a four- day week would not be on the table
for certain employees. A nurse, for instance. Could there be other
things that they could ask for instead that would help
them achieve that balance and those boundaries in their life?
Joe Ryle (09:24):
You can ask for job sharing, part- time work, compressed
hours where you're doing the same amount of hours, but
over a four- day week, you can also ask for a nine-
day fortnight. Actually increasingly, we're seeing hundreds of companies move
to nine day fortnight rather than a four- day week,
which is halfway there. So they'll reduce the working hours,
but one week they're doing five days and the next
week they're doing four.
Iona Bain (09:41):
That's interesting. I haven't come across the nine- day fortnight
as much, but maybe that's a bit more of a
halfway house.
Joe Ryle (09:48):
Yes.
Iona Bain (09:49):
Another question I have is that what are people spending
that day off doing? I'm quite curious because I've read
about quite recently that there's been a big rise in
the number of people going to the golf club or
going to the hairdressers or doing things that they would
otherwise do on the weekend midweek. So a lot of
these businesses within the economy are seeing a bit of
a midweek boom. So I think that's quite interesting and
(10:12):
it points to the fact that people maybe are making
the most of that day off, but what are you
seeing in terms of how people are using that day?
Joe Ryle (10:19):
I think it's a real mix. Some of the anecdotal feedback we
get back is people just doing their life admin, catching
up on the things as you say, they haven't had
time to do in the week. In Valencia, the government
trialed a four- day week every Friday for a month.
I think it was in April. It was interesting that
that study found that actually the hospitality service sector really
boomed on that Friday. So I do think there's real,
(10:40):
real benefits of this for hospitality industry.
Iona Bain (10:42):
Mind you, I imagine in Valencia just sitting outside with
a coffee or a beer, it's going to be a
bit more attractive than here in the UK, right?
Joe Ryle (10:49):
These days it's hot in July and August.
Iona Bain (10:51):
Well, true. Yeah, you can make the most of it,
I'm sure. So, Joe, what are the three simple things
that someone can do to maintain healthy boundaries at work
whatever their working model is?
Joe Ryle (11:03):
So I think a big one is being really aware
of your screen time use and trying to set some
clear boundaries to when work starts and ends. The danger
of working from home is that actually those lines are
so much more blurry.
Iona Bain (11:16):
Oh, absolutely.
Joe Ryle (11:16):
Also having time where potentially you put your phone away
from your desk. Maybe you're not even checking your emails,
you're just really focusing on the work that you need
to get done. Two, take your annual leave. Take your
bank holidays. Workers have fought for those over generations. Take
them and enjoy that time off. Also take a lunch
break. There's too many people, including myself sometimes, who will
sit at your computer screen for an hour with a
(11:37):
sandwich next to you and that's not good either.
Iona Bain (11:39):
No. Try to avoid al desko.
Joe Ryle (11:41):
Yeah, exactly. Get to the park, have a walk.
Iona Bain (11:43):
That's a great idea. Yeah. Really thought- provoking. Lots to
consider. Thank you, Joe. Next time, financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal
will be here to help us work out the psychology
behind our spending. Sounds very intriguing. I'd love it if
you could follow the podcast, leave us a review, and
help others get a little bit richer too. You can
(12:06):
keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram at
Legal and General. Thanks for listening. Until next time, see
you soon.
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