August 7, 2025 • 18 mins
Around 1 in 5 people in the UK are neurodivergent, but it often doesn’t get discussed enough when it comes to personal finance.
In this episode, our host Iona Bain speaks with accountant and behavioural finance expert Krystle McGilvery about the often-overlooked link between neurodiversity and money. Krystle shares her personal experience of living with ADHD and dyslexia, and how these conditions impact her financial habits.
From budgeting struggles to impulsive spending and long-term planning challenges, together they explore how emotional regulation, executive function, and financial systems all intersect.
Get ready for some empowering strategies to help take control of your financial future, whether you’re navigating your own neurodivergence or supporting someone who is.
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You can play the podcast and find other useful content on L&G’s website:
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Follow Krystle on Instagram
Iona and her guests share their own personal thoughts and opinions in this podcast. These might be different from L&G’s take on things. They give financial guidance for a UK audience that’s relevant at the time of recording. It’s general best practice, not the kind of personalised advice you’d get from a financial adviser.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This series is brought to you by LNG, helping you
build a future that's a little bit richer.
Iona Bain (00:07):
Hello and welcome to A Little Bit Richer, with me,
Iona Bain, brought to you by Legal and General. In
today's episode, we're talking about something that affects millions of people,
but often doesn't get discussed enough in the context of money,
and that's neurodiversity. Around one in five people in the
UK are neurodivergent, which means their brains work a little
(00:29):
differently from what's considered typical. Neurodiversity is a term that
covers ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and dyscalculia. And for many, it shapes
how we think, feel, and behave when it comes to finances.
Research shows neurodivergent people are more likely to face financial
anxiety and often lack confidence when it comes to managing
(00:49):
their money. Joining me today is the brilliant Crystal McGilvrey.
She's an accountant, campaigner, and speaker who was diagnosed with
dyslexia in her thirties and also lives with ADHD. Crystal
has a master's in behavioral and economic science and is
an expert in decision- making and behavioral finance. So she
is the perfect person for us to chat to today. Welcome, Crystal.
Krystle McGilvrey (01:13):
Hi.
Iona Bain (01:14):
Can you explain more about neurodiversity and how this might
affect how someone manages their money?
Krystle McGilvrey (01:21):
Yeah, for sure. So neurodiversity basically is a difference in
our brain. Neurodivergents have a different maybe structure in the
brain or the way their brain reacts or operates is
slightly different. If you are neurodivergent, you are likely to be
different in how you think, feel, and act. And if
you think about money and the role it plays in
(01:41):
our lives, it then has a double rolling effect on that.
Iona Bain (01:45):
So it's a very profound impact on pretty much every
aspect of how you interact with your finances?
Krystle McGilvrey (01:52):
100%. Yeah. We're talking about managing and budgeting, et cetera.
And if you don't have systems in place to help
you build wealth and manage your money on a day to day,
it can be really quite hard.
Iona Bain (02:03):
What are some of the typical money related challenges that
neurodiverse people face and how might these differ between ADHD, autism,
dyslexia and dyscalculia?
Krystle McGilvrey (02:15):
Top line, we're talking about things such as emotional dysregulation
or executive functioning. This is where it impacts us. For example,
executive functioning. We're talking about planning and organizing our finances,
and what you might see as someone struggling with budgeting
and staying within the parameters that they've set for their
finances and maybe they impulse spend instead. And that's when
(02:37):
we go back to things such as emotional dysregulation. When
you are maybe sad or even really happy, you want
to reward yourself and that spike you get really excited
and then you realize you've spent your savings for your home.
Or if we think about something like autism, maybe shutdowns
or meltdowns means you avoid your finances completely and then
that can cause a ripple effect.
Iona Bain (02:57):
And also when it comes to something like dyslexia or dyscalculia,
can that also be problematic in terms of your finances?
Krystle McGilvrey (03:06):
Yeah, for sure. If we think about dyscalculia, that's all
about numbers. Although I like to talk about finances not
being a mathematical thing as such, right? It's more about
the managing, the planning, thinking about the future, investing for
later life, but if you've got a fear or you
avoid numbers, that really makes it hard for you to
(03:26):
start thinking about what you're doing with your money for
later in life or even today. And then dyslexia, writing
or doing any kind of financial management when it comes
to your money, dyslexia shows up.
Iona Bain (03:40):
And you've been very open about your diagnosis of ADHD
and dyslexia. How have those things specifically affected your ability
to manage money?
Krystle McGilvrey (03:50):
So I'm an accountant, right? Which some people might be
surprised by.
Iona Bain (03:54):
100%. Which is why I laugh.
Krystle McGilvrey (03:56):
I'm a chartered accountant, I've got a bachelor's in financial mathematics.
I'm very number heavy. But I think what we need
to understand here is neurodivergence is on a spectrum, and
the way it's diagnosed is there's a range of traits. And
when you're assessed, it's about you being diagnosed based on
you meeting a criteria of having a certain number of
traits in a certain area. So with me being dyslexic
(04:19):
for example, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to struggle
with numbers. My dyslexia actually isn't around auditory, so I
can still really thrive when it comes to numbers and
I don't avoid them. But where I do struggle and
I've had to build systems, which is the managing and planning.
For example, when I worked in an organization, I had
the structure. I have weekly deadlines, monthly deadlines, so I
(04:42):
was really okay functioning in that environment. As soon as
I've gone and worked for myself now, straight away I
was like, how do I do this?
Iona Bain (04:51):
I mean, when you're self- employed, that is hard at
the best of times.
Krystle McGilvrey (04:54):
Exactly.
Iona Bain (04:55):
But it must have been particularly tricky for you.
Krystle McGilvrey (04:57):
It was, and I hadn't been diagnosed then, but I
did notice straight away that I was really messy in
my organization and it took a while for me to
realize I need structure. So that's one thing I help
people with is building that routine, that system, because that's
going to be your foundation for you to then launch
pad and do the other things you need to do.
Iona Bain (05:16):
What you're saying really resonates with me because I was
diagnosed with dyscalculia when I was at school, and one
thing that frustrates me now is if I tell people
what I do and if I then talk about my
struggles with numbers and maths, they then say, " Well, how
can you then be good with money?" Do you get
this sometimes where people will perhaps write off those who
(05:38):
have neurodivergence as maybe not being able to get on
top of their finances? Is that something that you find frustrating?
Krystle McGilvrey (05:45):
Yeah, 100%. Whether it's people in general or the individual themselves,
them knowing that they are neurodivergent and the struggles they've
had in the past can be really quite hard to manage.
And that demotivate you to even start walking the path
to addressing where you are different.
Iona Bain (06:02):
Because you've already started labeling yourself in that way.
Krystle McGilvrey (06:04):
Exactly. When it comes to neurodivergence, it's not that there's
a problem with your brain, it's actually the systems and
products and services that exist in our society today have
not been tailored for you. And instead what you need
to do is identify, okay, how does my brain work?
What do I find really easy? And then what systems
can I put in place to help me win when
it comes to finance?
Iona Bain (06:25):
Many people who have neurodivergence talk about the frustration of
having that intention to manage their money better, but not
being able to follow through. So what's behind that?
Krystle McGilvrey (06:35):
The word lazy comes up a lot, or people label
people as lazy. And so when it comes to your finances,
you might have all the best interest in the world
to say, right, I'm going to do this and feel
quite motivated about it. When it comes to our brain
and things such as dopamine and distraction and struggling to
control yourself, that's down to your brain in the way
(06:57):
it's wired. So it's not that you're lazy and you
just give up. There's actually something going on in your mind,
and that's where it's really important to put systems in
place and tools that can help you get things done.
Iona Bain (07:09):
And how do we become kinder to ourselves if we
are neurodivergent and we have had those struggles with money?
I talk about financial empathy a lot. So that's the
number one thing.
Krystle McGilvrey (07:19):
The number one thing.
Iona Bain (07:19):
Before you even get into strategies is be kind to yourself.
Krystle McGilvrey (07:23):
I've got a coaching program and I take people through,
and before we even start talking numbers, it's all about
you building up the confidence within yourself and your belief
in your ability to get there. Because if you're coming
in and you've lost some money or you're not where
your friends are, you just don't feel good. So you're
not going to be in the right space to be like, " Okay, yeah,
let's put a budget in place. Yep, let's start saving."
(07:44):
You're going to have this negative thought cycle, and instead
it's realizing there's nothing wrong with your brain, it's just
we haven't quite discovered what works for you. And going
through that journey, then you're able and open to reframe
your view of you and money. And then it becomes
really exciting, because it's almost like your problem solving and trying
to figure out, okay, this works for me and I
can make it fun here.
Iona Bain (08:06):
It's about trying to get those aha moments where suddenly
people will understand how to view their neurodivergence in a
new light almost and see it as an opportunity and something
that they can work with.
Krystle McGilvrey (08:18):
It's a reframe. That's what it is. And then it
allows you to go down this different path when it
comes to your finances and see that actually, oh, maybe
I could buy a home one day, or maybe I
could build up an emergency fund, or maybe I could
start investing. That becomes accessible to you.
Iona Bain (08:34):
That's lovely. Kind of opening up those possibilities.
Krystle McGilvrey (08:36):
Precisely.
Iona Bain (08:37):
So let's talk about some practical ways that neurodiverse people
can manage their spending day to day, because that must
be a big challenge, making sure that you can deal
with impulse spending, emotional purchases, forgetfulness, those types of day- to-
day challenges. What do you recommend in terms of practical strategies?
Krystle McGilvrey (08:56):
One thing that I know people love are certain banking apps
that alerts you when you've spent some money. I think
it's a really great reminder, because it's so easy for us
to forget about money. Money is now a card. It's
a bit of plastic in your hand. And when we
think about the science and what's happening there when you
spend with cash compared to spending with a card, the
part of our brain that's associated with pain lights up
(09:18):
more so when we spend with money. It's really quite fascinating.
Iona Bain (09:21):
I didn't know that. Because intuitively I do feel more
pained when I have to hand over a tenner compared
to when I just tap my card.
Krystle McGilvrey (09:30):
Yeah, because it's a disassociation, right? You don't have to
think about what's actually going on there. But yeah, a
banking app that pings when money has gone out is
such a great reminder to think about my budget or
what am I doing here. Things such as having different
pots or different bank accounts even. So what I like
to encourage is you have a bank account or a
pot that is purely for your bills.
Iona Bain (09:51):
So a pot, just explain how that works?
Krystle McGilvrey (09:54):
For example, Monzo, I think Styling as well. You can
set up your bank account and separate your money into
different sections within the one bank account, which is really
quite cool. But that allows you to then separate your income,
for example, into those pots and then allocate bills to
those different areas. And what that means is you don't
have to worry about spending and not being able to
(10:14):
pay a bill and then having to borrow in maybe
unsavory circumstances to be able to cover your day- to- day.
And then you've got this other pot, which is maybe
for the fun stuff and you can be free and
allow your Impulsive desires to have fun.
Iona Bain (10:29):
Yes. So it's not about removing all the fun, it's
just about putting the boundaries in place.
Krystle McGilvrey (10:33):
Yes.
Iona Bain (10:33):
And also when it comes to paying bills, can organizing
those via a direct debit help as well?
Krystle McGilvrey (10:39):
Yeah, 100%. I shout about automation. So where you can
set up direct debits, that works wonders. And even if
it's not a bill and it's investing or saving, stand
and order that, set it up where the money just
comes out of your account and you're not thinking about it.
Iona Bain (10:54):
One of the things that's really helped me as someone
who doesn't intuitively connect with numbers is using visual tools.
Krystle McGilvrey (11:00):
Yes.
Iona Bain (11:01):
So I love seeing my spending in a pie chart
or a bar chart because then I can see, rather
than have to calculate how much money I have left
per month.
Krystle McGilvrey (11:12):
I love that. If it works for you and it
helps you focus on the right thing, then run with it.
Iona Bain (11:16):
Absolutely.
Krystle McGilvrey (11:17):
As long as we're getting to the end goal, right?
Iona Bain (11:18):
Totally. And what would your advice be for anyone who
may be feeling shame and embarrassment, around not feeling like
they are adulting and getting their act together when it
comes to money? How can we shift that mindset?
Krystle McGilvrey (11:34):
It's a really good question. It's initially acknowledging and understanding
that your brain works differently and there's nothing wrong with that.
And actually what hasn't adjusted are the financial products and
services that exist to align with how your brain works.
It just requires an extra step for you to find
solutions that work well for you. And there are many
(11:54):
people who have successfully done that and gone from really
difficult financial situations and struggling in debt and not having
oversight of their finances and have gone through that. And
it might involve an initial brave step of rolling up
your sleeves and being like, okay, let's go for it. But
just encouragement that there is a way and you can
go down that path.
Iona Bain (12:14):
If spending becomes an issue because of your neurodivergence. Do
you recommend certain strategies to put in place to manage
debts that might happen as a result of that?
Krystle McGilvrey (12:24):
First of all, I'd say stop, pause, breathe, and know
that you can get through. And I think second, it's
just take an audit, note down, okay, this is what
I have here. These are the terms and conditions here.
And then it's slowly working your way through various different methods.
Avalanche and Snowball method, and it can be quite fun actually,
as you watch that journey of your debt reducing and
(12:45):
know that you have done that.
Iona Bain (12:47):
Once you're on that journey, the progress that you make
then becomes very self- motivating.
Krystle McGilvrey (12:52):
100%.
Iona Bain (12:52):
But you have to start that journey in the first place.
Krystle McGilvrey (12:54):
You have to start. And even starting with five pounds, because what we're
doing there is we're building this new habit, and that's
the key. You are teaching yourself and learning and building
up the confidence that I can commit to paying money
to clear a debt that I have. That's you being responsible.
And once you start that journey, it starts to snowball
and you feel really good.
Iona Bain (13:14):
That's so encouraging and heartening, but there may be people
who are listening to this conversation who haven't got a diagnosis,
who think I relate to a lot of this stuff.
What advice would you give to anyone who may not
officially have that neurodivergence but relate to a lot of
what we've been talking about?
Krystle McGilvrey (13:29):
I encourage people to set up maybe an accountability partner
or someone they can confide in and have those conversations
because it's definitely going to be a journey for you
to figure out what works for you.
Iona Bain (13:40):
And does that have to be somebody who is a
step removed from your life, like a coach? Or can
it just be someone who's a friend or a family
member who looks out for you?
Krystle McGilvrey (13:48):
Totally. My first thought was it could be a friend,
it could be a sister, it could be anyone, but
someone that you feel safe to explore that with. Diagnosis
is quite expensive and for many people really not accessible,
but there's no harm in you exploring. What solutions exist
in that space to help benefit you and help you
do better.
Iona Bain (14:07):
And how can partners, friends, even employers, be more supportive
of those who have neurodivergence when it comes to money?
Krystle McGilvrey (14:15):
First of all, it's knowing that neurodivergence is a spectrum and
everybody is different. I think people assume that someone who
is autistic looks a certain way. I mean, I think
the narrative of it being a white male is still
quite prevalent, right? Dyslexia, ADHD, looks different for everybody. And
it's for us all to accept that and trust the
individual and their challenges. And then also lead with financial
(14:38):
empathy and kindness for that person and be gentle with
their challenges and support them. And then if you have
the time, offer to help. That might be helping them
find solutions to manage their money better or helping them
find an app that would work well with them. So
being a helpful hand.
Iona Bain (14:56):
And Crystal, do you have any advice about how you
can keep an eye on the long term? Because that
can also be an issue if you're neurodivergent.
Krystle McGilvrey (15:03):
There's something called time blindness. This is where you struggle
to think about the future paired with that lovely present bias.
So we want to do things right now, but that
means two things. One, if we're spending too much right now,
we're not able to save and put that money today
into the right place, whether it's saving or investing, which
(15:26):
is for us to build our future wealth.
Iona Bain (15:29):
And also, I imagine that people who might struggle with
things like ADHD would find the process of getting to
understand investing in pensions and these big money subjects, quite daunting.
So what would your advice be for anyone who would
really love to get to grips with these things but thinks,
I think that's a little bit beyond me?
Krystle McGilvrey (15:46):
Whether it's talking to somebody that you trust and knows
a bit more than you, seeking professional help. But I
do understand that especially if we're talking about a financial advisor
who looks really suited and booted and serious when it
comes to money, that's a bit scary. Maybe encourage online
spaces where you can learn, but also if you do
download a investing app and follow the steps, it's really
quite straightforward. They don't give you the unnecessary technical jargon.
(16:11):
The UX design, the interface is really friendly and you
just press a couple of buttons and before you know it,
you're an investor.
Iona Bain (16:17):
Don't talk yourself out of it, in other words. Don't
think that's not for me, just do it.
Krystle McGilvrey (16:21):
It's for everyone.
Iona Bain (16:22):
So Crystal, if someone's feeling overwhelmed and they recognize some
of the traits that we've been discussing in themselves, what
are your top three tips for them?
Krystle McGilvrey (16:30):
I think the first would be know that with so
many other areas of life, it's a journey. And the
fact that you are aware of it is the first step.
And then it's a matter of taking your time to
gather the information that you need and working through the
process of making the changes. Number two, when we think
about the task of doing money and sitting down, whether
(16:52):
it's with a spreadsheet or a bit of paper, I'd
encourage you to maybe anchor that to something that you
already enjoy. So if you're going to update your budget,
find something you can do or be in a space or
an environment that you really enjoy so that it feels good.
Iona Bain (17:07):
I would blast out some music.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:08):
There you go.
Iona Bain (17:09):
That's what I would do.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:10):
Exactly. Or maybe go to a cafe and have a
little posh coffee and-
Iona Bain (17:14):
Oh, yeah sorry, I'm in.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:17):
Third tip. Third tip would be chunking it down. So when we think about our finances,
there are so many things we need to do, right?
Whether it's creating a budget, setting up our automations, thinking
about investing, maybe create a lovely long list and be like, okay,
these are the things I have to do. Choose one
and do that one. And then when you come back,
maybe the next week or a couple days later, do
one other and just take your time and before you've
(17:38):
gone through the list.
Iona Bain (17:41):
Those are fantastic tips, Crystal, and I'm sure people listening
will really, really appreciate them. Thank you so much.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:46):
Thank you.
Iona Bain (17:47):
Next time the mortgage mom, Sarah Tucker, will be here
to talk us through the home buying process and what
you need to know. This podcast is brought to you
by LNG. You can keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok
and Instagram at Legal and General. I would love it
if you could follow the podcast, leave us a review
and help others get a little bit richer too. Thanks
for listening. Until next time, see you soon.
This series is brought to you by LNG, helping you
build a future that's a little bit richer.
Iona Bain (00:07):
Hello and welcome to A Little Bit Richer, with me,
Iona Bain, brought to you by Legal and General. In
today's episode, we're talking about something that affects millions of people,
but often doesn't get discussed enough in the context of money,
and that's neurodiversity. Around one in five people in the
UK are neurodivergent, which means their brains work a little
(00:29):
differently from what's considered typical. Neurodiversity is a term that
covers ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and dyscalculia. And for many, it shapes
how we think, feel, and behave when it comes to finances.
Research shows neurodivergent people are more likely to face financial
anxiety and often lack confidence when it comes to managing
(00:49):
their money. Joining me today is the brilliant Crystal McGilvrey.
She's an accountant, campaigner, and speaker who was diagnosed with
dyslexia in her thirties and also lives with ADHD. Crystal
has a master's in behavioral and economic science and is
an expert in decision- making and behavioral finance. So she
is the perfect person for us to chat to today. Welcome, Crystal.
Krystle McGilvrey (01:13):
Hi.
Iona Bain (01:14):
Can you explain more about neurodiversity and how this might
affect how someone manages their money?
Krystle McGilvrey (01:21):
Yeah, for sure. So neurodiversity basically is a difference in
our brain. Neurodivergents have a different maybe structure in the
brain or the way their brain reacts or operates is
slightly different. If you are neurodivergent, you are likely to be
different in how you think, feel, and act. And if
you think about money and the role it plays in
(01:41):
our lives, it then has a double rolling effect on that.
Iona Bain (01:45):
So it's a very profound impact on pretty much every
aspect of how you interact with your finances?
Krystle McGilvrey (01:52):
100%. Yeah. We're talking about managing and budgeting, et cetera.
And if you don't have systems in place to help
you build wealth and manage your money on a day to day,
it can be really quite hard.
Iona Bain (02:03):
What are some of the typical money related challenges that
neurodiverse people face and how might these differ between ADHD, autism,
dyslexia and dyscalculia?
Krystle McGilvrey (02:15):
Top line, we're talking about things such as emotional dysregulation
or executive functioning. This is where it impacts us. For example,
executive functioning. We're talking about planning and organizing our finances,
and what you might see as someone struggling with budgeting
and staying within the parameters that they've set for their
finances and maybe they impulse spend instead. And that's when
(02:37):
we go back to things such as emotional dysregulation. When
you are maybe sad or even really happy, you want
to reward yourself and that spike you get really excited
and then you realize you've spent your savings for your home.
Or if we think about something like autism, maybe shutdowns
or meltdowns means you avoid your finances completely and then
that can cause a ripple effect.
Iona Bain (02:57):
And also when it comes to something like dyslexia or dyscalculia,
can that also be problematic in terms of your finances?
Krystle McGilvrey (03:06):
Yeah, for sure. If we think about dyscalculia, that's all
about numbers. Although I like to talk about finances not
being a mathematical thing as such, right? It's more about
the managing, the planning, thinking about the future, investing for
later life, but if you've got a fear or you
avoid numbers, that really makes it hard for you to
(03:26):
start thinking about what you're doing with your money for
later in life or even today. And then dyslexia, writing
or doing any kind of financial management when it comes
to your money, dyslexia shows up.
Iona Bain (03:40):
And you've been very open about your diagnosis of ADHD
and dyslexia. How have those things specifically affected your ability
to manage money?
Krystle McGilvrey (03:50):
So I'm an accountant, right? Which some people might be
surprised by.
Iona Bain (03:54):
100%. Which is why I laugh.
Krystle McGilvrey (03:56):
I'm a chartered accountant, I've got a bachelor's in financial mathematics.
I'm very number heavy. But I think what we need
to understand here is neurodivergence is on a spectrum, and
the way it's diagnosed is there's a range of traits. And
when you're assessed, it's about you being diagnosed based on
you meeting a criteria of having a certain number of
traits in a certain area. So with me being dyslexic
(04:19):
for example, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to struggle
with numbers. My dyslexia actually isn't around auditory, so I
can still really thrive when it comes to numbers and
I don't avoid them. But where I do struggle and
I've had to build systems, which is the managing and planning.
For example, when I worked in an organization, I had
the structure. I have weekly deadlines, monthly deadlines, so I
(04:42):
was really okay functioning in that environment. As soon as
I've gone and worked for myself now, straight away I
was like, how do I do this?
Iona Bain (04:51):
I mean, when you're self- employed, that is hard at
the best of times.
Krystle McGilvrey (04:54):
Exactly.
Iona Bain (04:55):
But it must have been particularly tricky for you.
Krystle McGilvrey (04:57):
It was, and I hadn't been diagnosed then, but I
did notice straight away that I was really messy in
my organization and it took a while for me to
realize I need structure. So that's one thing I help
people with is building that routine, that system, because that's
going to be your foundation for you to then launch
pad and do the other things you need to do.
Iona Bain (05:16):
What you're saying really resonates with me because I was
diagnosed with dyscalculia when I was at school, and one
thing that frustrates me now is if I tell people
what I do and if I then talk about my
struggles with numbers and maths, they then say, " Well, how
can you then be good with money?" Do you get
this sometimes where people will perhaps write off those who
(05:38):
have neurodivergence as maybe not being able to get on
top of their finances? Is that something that you find frustrating?
Krystle McGilvrey (05:45):
Yeah, 100%. Whether it's people in general or the individual themselves,
them knowing that they are neurodivergent and the struggles they've
had in the past can be really quite hard to manage.
And that demotivate you to even start walking the path
to addressing where you are different.
Iona Bain (06:02):
Because you've already started labeling yourself in that way.
Krystle McGilvrey (06:04):
Exactly. When it comes to neurodivergence, it's not that there's
a problem with your brain, it's actually the systems and
products and services that exist in our society today have
not been tailored for you. And instead what you need
to do is identify, okay, how does my brain work?
What do I find really easy? And then what systems
can I put in place to help me win when
it comes to finance?
Iona Bain (06:25):
Many people who have neurodivergence talk about the frustration of
having that intention to manage their money better, but not
being able to follow through. So what's behind that?
Krystle McGilvrey (06:35):
The word lazy comes up a lot, or people label
people as lazy. And so when it comes to your finances,
you might have all the best interest in the world
to say, right, I'm going to do this and feel
quite motivated about it. When it comes to our brain
and things such as dopamine and distraction and struggling to
control yourself, that's down to your brain in the way
(06:57):
it's wired. So it's not that you're lazy and you
just give up. There's actually something going on in your mind,
and that's where it's really important to put systems in
place and tools that can help you get things done.
Iona Bain (07:09):
And how do we become kinder to ourselves if we
are neurodivergent and we have had those struggles with money?
I talk about financial empathy a lot. So that's the
number one thing.
Krystle McGilvrey (07:19):
The number one thing.
Iona Bain (07:19):
Before you even get into strategies is be kind to yourself.
Krystle McGilvrey (07:23):
I've got a coaching program and I take people through,
and before we even start talking numbers, it's all about
you building up the confidence within yourself and your belief
in your ability to get there. Because if you're coming
in and you've lost some money or you're not where
your friends are, you just don't feel good. So you're
not going to be in the right space to be like, " Okay, yeah,
let's put a budget in place. Yep, let's start saving."
(07:44):
You're going to have this negative thought cycle, and instead
it's realizing there's nothing wrong with your brain, it's just
we haven't quite discovered what works for you. And going
through that journey, then you're able and open to reframe
your view of you and money. And then it becomes
really exciting, because it's almost like your problem solving and trying
to figure out, okay, this works for me and I
can make it fun here.
Iona Bain (08:06):
It's about trying to get those aha moments where suddenly
people will understand how to view their neurodivergence in a
new light almost and see it as an opportunity and something
that they can work with.
Krystle McGilvrey (08:18):
It's a reframe. That's what it is. And then it
allows you to go down this different path when it
comes to your finances and see that actually, oh, maybe
I could buy a home one day, or maybe I
could build up an emergency fund, or maybe I could
start investing. That becomes accessible to you.
Iona Bain (08:34):
That's lovely. Kind of opening up those possibilities.
Krystle McGilvrey (08:36):
Precisely.
Iona Bain (08:37):
So let's talk about some practical ways that neurodiverse people
can manage their spending day to day, because that must
be a big challenge, making sure that you can deal
with impulse spending, emotional purchases, forgetfulness, those types of day- to-
day challenges. What do you recommend in terms of practical strategies?
Krystle McGilvrey (08:56):
One thing that I know people love are certain banking apps
that alerts you when you've spent some money. I think
it's a really great reminder, because it's so easy for us
to forget about money. Money is now a card. It's
a bit of plastic in your hand. And when we
think about the science and what's happening there when you
spend with cash compared to spending with a card, the
part of our brain that's associated with pain lights up
(09:18):
more so when we spend with money. It's really quite fascinating.
Iona Bain (09:21):
I didn't know that. Because intuitively I do feel more
pained when I have to hand over a tenner compared
to when I just tap my card.
Krystle McGilvrey (09:30):
Yeah, because it's a disassociation, right? You don't have to
think about what's actually going on there. But yeah, a
banking app that pings when money has gone out is
such a great reminder to think about my budget or
what am I doing here. Things such as having different
pots or different bank accounts even. So what I like
to encourage is you have a bank account or a
pot that is purely for your bills.
Iona Bain (09:51):
So a pot, just explain how that works?
Krystle McGilvrey (09:54):
For example, Monzo, I think Styling as well. You can
set up your bank account and separate your money into
different sections within the one bank account, which is really
quite cool. But that allows you to then separate your income,
for example, into those pots and then allocate bills to
those different areas. And what that means is you don't
have to worry about spending and not being able to
(10:14):
pay a bill and then having to borrow in maybe
unsavory circumstances to be able to cover your day- to- day.
And then you've got this other pot, which is maybe
for the fun stuff and you can be free and
allow your Impulsive desires to have fun.
Iona Bain (10:29):
Yes. So it's not about removing all the fun, it's
just about putting the boundaries in place.
Krystle McGilvrey (10:33):
Yes.
Iona Bain (10:33):
And also when it comes to paying bills, can organizing
those via a direct debit help as well?
Krystle McGilvrey (10:39):
Yeah, 100%. I shout about automation. So where you can
set up direct debits, that works wonders. And even if
it's not a bill and it's investing or saving, stand
and order that, set it up where the money just
comes out of your account and you're not thinking about it.
Iona Bain (10:54):
One of the things that's really helped me as someone
who doesn't intuitively connect with numbers is using visual tools.
Krystle McGilvrey (11:00):
Yes.
Iona Bain (11:01):
So I love seeing my spending in a pie chart
or a bar chart because then I can see, rather
than have to calculate how much money I have left
per month.
Krystle McGilvrey (11:12):
I love that. If it works for you and it
helps you focus on the right thing, then run with it.
Iona Bain (11:16):
Absolutely.
Krystle McGilvrey (11:17):
As long as we're getting to the end goal, right?
Iona Bain (11:18):
Totally. And what would your advice be for anyone who
may be feeling shame and embarrassment, around not feeling like
they are adulting and getting their act together when it
comes to money? How can we shift that mindset?
Krystle McGilvrey (11:34):
It's a really good question. It's initially acknowledging and understanding
that your brain works differently and there's nothing wrong with that.
And actually what hasn't adjusted are the financial products and
services that exist to align with how your brain works.
It just requires an extra step for you to find
solutions that work well for you. And there are many
(11:54):
people who have successfully done that and gone from really
difficult financial situations and struggling in debt and not having
oversight of their finances and have gone through that. And
it might involve an initial brave step of rolling up
your sleeves and being like, okay, let's go for it. But
just encouragement that there is a way and you can
go down that path.
Iona Bain (12:14):
If spending becomes an issue because of your neurodivergence. Do
you recommend certain strategies to put in place to manage
debts that might happen as a result of that?
Krystle McGilvrey (12:24):
First of all, I'd say stop, pause, breathe, and know
that you can get through. And I think second, it's
just take an audit, note down, okay, this is what
I have here. These are the terms and conditions here.
And then it's slowly working your way through various different methods.
Avalanche and Snowball method, and it can be quite fun actually,
as you watch that journey of your debt reducing and
(12:45):
know that you have done that.
Iona Bain (12:47):
Once you're on that journey, the progress that you make
then becomes very self- motivating.
Krystle McGilvrey (12:52):
100%.
Iona Bain (12:52):
But you have to start that journey in the first place.
Krystle McGilvrey (12:54):
You have to start. And even starting with five pounds, because what we're
doing there is we're building this new habit, and that's
the key. You are teaching yourself and learning and building
up the confidence that I can commit to paying money
to clear a debt that I have. That's you being responsible.
And once you start that journey, it starts to snowball
and you feel really good.
Iona Bain (13:14):
That's so encouraging and heartening, but there may be people
who are listening to this conversation who haven't got a diagnosis,
who think I relate to a lot of this stuff.
What advice would you give to anyone who may not
officially have that neurodivergence but relate to a lot of
what we've been talking about?
Krystle McGilvrey (13:29):
I encourage people to set up maybe an accountability partner
or someone they can confide in and have those conversations
because it's definitely going to be a journey for you
to figure out what works for you.
Iona Bain (13:40):
And does that have to be somebody who is a
step removed from your life, like a coach? Or can
it just be someone who's a friend or a family
member who looks out for you?
Krystle McGilvrey (13:48):
Totally. My first thought was it could be a friend,
it could be a sister, it could be anyone, but
someone that you feel safe to explore that with. Diagnosis
is quite expensive and for many people really not accessible,
but there's no harm in you exploring. What solutions exist
in that space to help benefit you and help you
do better.
Iona Bain (14:07):
And how can partners, friends, even employers, be more supportive
of those who have neurodivergence when it comes to money?
Krystle McGilvrey (14:15):
First of all, it's knowing that neurodivergence is a spectrum and
everybody is different. I think people assume that someone who
is autistic looks a certain way. I mean, I think
the narrative of it being a white male is still
quite prevalent, right? Dyslexia, ADHD, looks different for everybody. And
it's for us all to accept that and trust the
individual and their challenges. And then also lead with financial
(14:38):
empathy and kindness for that person and be gentle with
their challenges and support them. And then if you have
the time, offer to help. That might be helping them
find solutions to manage their money better or helping them
find an app that would work well with them. So
being a helpful hand.
Iona Bain (14:56):
And Crystal, do you have any advice about how you
can keep an eye on the long term? Because that
can also be an issue if you're neurodivergent.
Krystle McGilvrey (15:03):
There's something called time blindness. This is where you struggle
to think about the future paired with that lovely present bias.
So we want to do things right now, but that
means two things. One, if we're spending too much right now,
we're not able to save and put that money today
into the right place, whether it's saving or investing, which
(15:26):
is for us to build our future wealth.
Iona Bain (15:29):
And also, I imagine that people who might struggle with
things like ADHD would find the process of getting to
understand investing in pensions and these big money subjects, quite daunting.
So what would your advice be for anyone who would
really love to get to grips with these things but thinks,
I think that's a little bit beyond me?
Krystle McGilvrey (15:46):
Whether it's talking to somebody that you trust and knows
a bit more than you, seeking professional help. But I
do understand that especially if we're talking about a financial advisor
who looks really suited and booted and serious when it
comes to money, that's a bit scary. Maybe encourage online
spaces where you can learn, but also if you do
download a investing app and follow the steps, it's really
quite straightforward. They don't give you the unnecessary technical jargon.
(16:11):
The UX design, the interface is really friendly and you
just press a couple of buttons and before you know it,
you're an investor.
Iona Bain (16:17):
Don't talk yourself out of it, in other words. Don't
think that's not for me, just do it.
Krystle McGilvrey (16:21):
It's for everyone.
Iona Bain (16:22):
So Crystal, if someone's feeling overwhelmed and they recognize some
of the traits that we've been discussing in themselves, what
are your top three tips for them?
Krystle McGilvrey (16:30):
I think the first would be know that with so
many other areas of life, it's a journey. And the
fact that you are aware of it is the first step.
And then it's a matter of taking your time to
gather the information that you need and working through the
process of making the changes. Number two, when we think
about the task of doing money and sitting down, whether
(16:52):
it's with a spreadsheet or a bit of paper, I'd
encourage you to maybe anchor that to something that you
already enjoy. So if you're going to update your budget,
find something you can do or be in a space or
an environment that you really enjoy so that it feels good.
Iona Bain (17:07):
I would blast out some music.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:08):
There you go.
Iona Bain (17:09):
That's what I would do.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:10):
Exactly. Or maybe go to a cafe and have a
little posh coffee and-
Iona Bain (17:14):
Oh, yeah sorry, I'm in.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:17):
Third tip. Third tip would be chunking it down. So when we think about our finances,
there are so many things we need to do, right?
Whether it's creating a budget, setting up our automations, thinking
about investing, maybe create a lovely long list and be like, okay,
these are the things I have to do. Choose one
and do that one. And then when you come back,
maybe the next week or a couple days later, do
one other and just take your time and before you've
(17:38):
gone through the list.
Iona Bain (17:41):
Those are fantastic tips, Crystal, and I'm sure people listening
will really, really appreciate them. Thank you so much.
Krystle McGilvrey (17:46):
Thank you.
Iona Bain (17:47):
Next time the mortgage mom, Sarah Tucker, will be here
to talk us through the home buying process and what
you need to know. This podcast is brought to you
by LNG. You can keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok
and Instagram at Legal and General. I would love it
if you could follow the podcast, leave us a review
and help others get a little bit richer too. Thanks
for listening. Until next time, see you soon.
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