July 6, 2025 • 50 mins
Australia is on the edge of a demographic cliff — and according to leading demographer Bernard Salt, we’re nowhere near ready.
In this episode of Agehood, Bernard joins host Melissa Reader to unpack the numbers behind our aging population, the rising pressure on families, and the looming care crisis that will land hardest on women in their 50s and 60s.
With his trademark clarity and insight, Bernard explains why the sandwich generation is growing, what the economic and emotional load of caring will look like over the next decade, and how we can start to prepare now — as individuals, families, and a nation.
It’s a wake-up call wrapped in data, empathy and urgency — and a must-listen for anyone navigating aging, caregiving, or planning for what’s next.
FIND OUT MORE
If you’re caring for aging parents, navigating your own next chapter, or just trying to keep all the balls in the air—you’re not alone. At Violet, we offer free tools and support to help families navigate the last stage of life with care and confidence. Visit violet.org.au to start the conversation.
CREDITS
Host: Melissa Reader
With thanks to Bernard Salt
Executive Producer: Lize Ratliff
Find out more about Violet at violet.org.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Melissa Reeder and welcome to Hood, the podcast
for people who are quietly carrying it all aging parents,
adult kids, your own work, and your own next chapter.
If that sounds a little like you, well, you are
in your age hood and it's time we talked about it.
Last week we unpacked the realities of what it's actually
(00:37):
like being in the sandwich generation when journalist Sarah MacDonald
shared her story with us. And today we're looking at
what stories like Sarah's and maybe yours mean for the
rest of the country. Bernard Salt is a man known
for turning really complex data into compelling human stories. He's
(01:01):
a social commentator. He's a columnist for The Australian, and
he's also founder of the demographics Group. And you might
remember him best, actually, as the man who questioned why
younger generations were spending a lot of money on smashed
avocado on toast instead of saving for a house. Today,
(01:22):
on Age Hood, Bernard joins me to unpack the growing
pressure on generation X, particularly women, as they care for
aging parents while still supporting their own children and their
own careers. He really helps us to break down the
numbers behind Australia's rapidly ageing population. This coming spike in
people that are reaching 85 in the next 5 or
(01:45):
6 years, and what that's going to mean for families,
care systems and our economy, but also our own emotional bandwidth.
We talk about loneliness, about loss and about grief. A
child is brought to you by Always Carer Gateway, an
(02:06):
incredible organisation offering free counselling, care, coaching and peer support
to people in the community who are supporting a family
member or a friend with a disability, a medical condition,
mental illness or maybe frail and elderly due to age.
Just call one 804 2737 or visit bellway's. Gateway. Sadmin
(02:31):
is the unexpected burden of endless bureaucracy during times of
deep grief. Wills are important, but they don't give critical
information like passwords, bank accounts, and bills. For that, you
need a letter of wishes from today's sponsor. Bill will
go to Bill Wilcox for a simple and secure way
(02:52):
to reduce stress for your loved ones. Share your values
and preserve your voice. Place. Bernard salt. Hello and thank
you for coming and having a chat with me on
Age Hood today.
S2 (03:07):
My pleasure.
S1 (03:07):
It's really lovely to have you here. I know many
listeners will know you as a very insightful columnist from
The Australian and also founder of the demographics Group, where
you have provided that very specialist lens on social trends
and demographic shifts, but alongside your superpower with numbers, you
(03:28):
are an exceptional storyteller. I'm not going to be the
first to tell you that you have an incredible, unmatched
ability to take what could be quite dry statistical narrative
and really paint a vivid picture about who we are
as Australians and how we're evolving as a society.
S2 (03:47):
I like the idea of taking simple numbers and, um,
looking for the story behind the numbers. And to my surprise,
over the years I've discovered that business likes that as well,
because I think they're getting advice from advisors saying, well,
I think this or I reckon that or whatever. Whereas
I say, here are some numbers, and here is what
I think they are saying about Australian values, Australian behaviour.
(04:11):
So there's a there's a metric basis to what I say,
whether in fact what I'm saying is right or not
is another question, but at least there is some sort
of basis to to what I'm saying.
S1 (04:21):
Business people are people and people love stories. So it's,
you know, there's a there's a circular aspect to that.
I'd also say that you are Australia's unofficial wordsmith of
social trends, your, um, brilliant coining of the smashed avocado
back in 2016, very colourful debate on the housing affordability
crisis that followed.
S2 (04:41):
It's most certainly did hit a nerve, not just in
Australia but globally as well. So, um, but you know,
I think that's, um, you know, that's part of the challenge,
you know, to, to raise stories or raise issues, uh,
and to do it in a way that connects with people,
I think.
S1 (04:57):
Yeah. And we've been doing some of that work together
over the last couple of months around really bringing some
color and context to this concept of the sandwich generation,
which we know is a very real experience for about
5 million Australians. So I'm really looking forward to opening
that conversation up today and and understanding both the numbers
(05:17):
and the stories behind it.
S2 (05:19):
A lot of my colour in my analysis involves food.
So smashed avocados or sandwich sandwich generation. Very early on
in my career, I talked about the doughnut effect, which
is where people were leaving the inner city and creating
this doughnut. It's all filled in. Of course, since then,
but I think being able to connect a movement or
(05:42):
a social observation to something that is everyday, that people
connect with, it's just a part of the way of
building the the connection, the story, in fact. Yeah, the
sandwich generation effectively. um, defines people in their 50s who
are looking after their 80 something parents, and at the
same time, they have a responsibility in many ways for
(06:06):
their 20 something kids as well. Now, adults forming relationships
and getting jobs and whatever, uh, and also managing their
own work, their own relationships so they feel as though
and to be fair, that there at that time in
life where they are the meat in the sandwich, the
filling in the sandwich, the.
S1 (06:24):
Triple decker sandwich.
S2 (06:24):
The triple decker, the club sandwich generation, if we want
to be really specific about it. Um, but, uh, yes.
And that that is effectively generation X at the moment,
dealing with, uh, dealing with parents in their aging parents and, uh,
coming of age, uh, kids as well, and managing, in
(06:45):
many respects, their own circumstances because they're still at work
and relationships and whatever.
S1 (06:51):
People are at the peak of their careers. Is, um,
I think there's there's just so much playing out stories
that we're hearing through these submissions of just trying to
keep it all together and being stretched incredibly thin. And
I would say we're at the beginning of that wave.
So let's talk a little bit about the aging population
that's ahead of us, because it's, you know, it's a
(07:12):
it's a term that's again, kind of tossed about. But
you've taught me so much about the numbers. So can
you can you take us through it?
S2 (07:19):
Well, I think there's a number of ways that you
can measure or reflect the, um, the aging of the population.
The one that I like to use is what I
call the the 85 plus bucket. So the total population
in Australia aged 85 plus is increasing over time because
(07:41):
of longevity. We're living longer, healthier lives. So there's more
people hanging around beyond the age of 85. And the
issue is the way in which this is going to
escalate in the future. At the moment, the number of
people turning 85 and remaining alive right through into their
90s and so forth, um, that bucket is growing by
(08:04):
around about ten, 12, maybe 15,000 people per year. So
that goes to the issue of how many nursing home
beds and aged care workers you might need. Now, not
everyone over the age of 85 requires those services. But
to be fair, if you're 85 plus you're in the
zone and we need to be ratcheting up the infrastructure
(08:25):
and the spending, uh, to maintain quality of life for
people aged 85 plus. The issue is that the number
of people in that bucket has been growing at five, ten,
up to 15,000 per year for the last 50 years.
We've gotten used to that. Over the next six years,
the rate of growth is going to go from 1015
(08:48):
to in fact, it was 2000 people per year. In
the early 2030s. And the reason for that is that
the very first baby boomer ever invented, born in 1946,
tips across the 85 line in 2031, 20, 32 or so.
(09:10):
And so it's the baby boomer generation. Healthy living, longer
living into later life, living beyond the age of 85
in accelerating numbers literally over the next ten years and
exponentially over the next 5 or 6 years. That creates
the challenge or the problem.
S1 (09:30):
And that's a five fold increase.
S2 (09:32):
It's a five fold increase. And when you've probably built
a career in healthcare, aged care, public administration, coping with
the 85 plus bucket, expanding by 5 or 10,000 per year,
you can kind of manage it if it all of
a sudden then goes to 60,000, And then it just
(09:52):
it just it explodes. And I think this is the
issue with the baby boomer generation at every stage of
the life cycle. They have had an impact as hippies, punks,
dinks and yuppies. So they created the hippie movement in
Australian major cities. When they went to universities in their
teenage late teenage years, 20 something had to build universities,
(10:14):
new universities like Macquarie in Sydney, Flinders in Adelaide, Griffith
in Brisbane, Monash in Melbourne. So when they pass through
a stage in the life cycle there is an impact.
And while they remain in the workforce, well, that's generates
wealth and prosperity. They're earning an income. They're paying tax.
(10:36):
The tax base rises. It kind of is an issue
in the 2020s as they start to come out of
the workforce. It is a real issue when they start
impacting Acting the 85 plus bucket, where the demand for
healthcare and care services absolutely skyrockets. And that's the phase
(10:58):
that we're going through over the next ten years.
S1 (11:02):
And arguably, this is going to have an impact on
almost every family, almost every community across the country in
one way or another. And I think it's important to
remember these are elderly Australians who have contributed to everything
this country has achieved over the course of their lives.
So how do we think about the kind of care
(11:22):
that that group need, and how ready are we to
provide it?
S2 (11:25):
Well, I always argue that it's not just the 85
plus people themselves, of course, you know, needing services and
care and support and so forth. It is the families
that reverberate down the next generation, the the people caring
for them. People probably administering and managing their care are
in their 50s, today's Generation Xers and grandchildren. Of course,
(11:48):
in their teens and early 20s. So what happens to
the 85 plus bucket has an echo effect in the
50s and in the 20s as well. There's another there's another, um,
piece of information. Demographic information I think is really important
in this story. And that is that there is a
(12:09):
there is a new question that was asked at the
last census. We have a census every five years. We
ask 62 questions. The Americans have a census every ten years.
They ask 12 questions. It's a big deal to whack
another question into the census. We've already got 62. You
can't be can't be adding questions willy nilly. Uh, the
(12:29):
question that got across the line was, have you ever
been told by a healthcare professional doctor or a nurse
that you have a long term mental health condition, anxiety
or depression? The the answers to that question were absolutely, um, significant, um,
about 10% of the population said yes, that they have
(12:53):
been told at some time in their life. When you
look at it across the age profile, it the anxiety
and depression in the average Australian subsides after the age
of 65. The minute you leave work, all your anxiety
and depression and you know you've got grandkids arriving, you've
paid off your house, your kids are partnered up. You know,
(13:14):
everything seems to be fine. Yeah. The golden years. Yeah. And,
you know, you might have a couple of health issues,
but they're not dire in your late 60s and 70s generally.
But it skyrockets at the age of 78, 79 and
80 and remains elevated right across the 80s and gets
even worse into the 90s. And the reason for that,
(13:36):
I think, is the loss of a life partner. Typically,
the male grandpa will pass away at about 70, 78, 79, 7980.
Grandma is left alone. And of course, that then creates
what I think we're going to see with the aging
of the baby boomers a loneliness epidemic. The oldest baby
(14:00):
boomer today, born in 1946, is 79. So we've got
5 million baby boomers pushing into their late 70s, early
80s and progressively literally over the next five years, we
are going to see a rise in people living singly,
(14:21):
and we're going to see a rise in loneliness. Now
loneliness is offset by connectivity, connectivity to the community and
to the family. So these are the issues that we
will need to be addressing as a nation. In addition
to the straight healthcare aged care costs that come with
the arrival of that generation.
S1 (14:42):
There are the hard costs and the soft costs, aren't they,
that sit with this? One of the really interesting things,
and you and I have talked about this a little
bit previously, when you think about that statistic is I
wonder what the role of grief is in those mental
health statistics, because you think about the prevalence of dementia.
You think about what it means to lose your life partner,
or even have your life partner go into residential care. Um,
(15:06):
there's anticipatory grief that happens from a diagnosis, from one
of those changes right through to actual bereavement.
S2 (15:13):
Well, grief and bereavement, uh, is is very real, of course,
and especially for people who've been married for 50 years
or so, their way of life, the whole family, the
whole community is, is interlinked with someone else. Then all
of a sudden they pass away. And that that is
not always an easy transition. You know, it often comes
(15:35):
more often than.
S1 (15:36):
Not incredibly hard.
S2 (15:37):
Isn't it?
S1 (15:38):
It's painful.
S2 (15:38):
Very painful, very difficult, very stressful. Um, and requires not
just not just the engagement of a life partner, but
also your kids, kids, even, you know, losing, losing a
parent in your 50s is still a painful experience. You know, grief.
(16:00):
And in fact, in many respects, it's there's so much,
so much history, so much connectivity, so much emotion. Identity.
And so yes, it does. It does cause stress. I
will also say that there's another stress that comes with this,
that not everyone comes from a happy family that is
(16:22):
functioning and works together, where all the siblings are.
S1 (16:26):
I think most families have a story where.
S2 (16:28):
That isn't quite.
S1 (16:29):
The case.
S2 (16:29):
Every time I raise this, everyone puts their hand up
and says, oh, that's us, that's us.
S1 (16:33):
Let me tell you about what happens.
S2 (16:34):
But you know, in an ideal world, it's hard enough
when everyone is working together, has the same values, the
same thinking, same priorities in in making these transitions for
mum and dad or for mum because dad's passed away
or whatever.
S1 (16:50):
So I find that bit really, really interesting because when
we look at really the overwhelming lack of people's ability
to talk about or plan for this life stage, you
end up with those really complex family dynamics that you're
talking about. Everyone's not on the same page. Siblings might
be interstate. The eldest brother might fly in at the
last moment, might not have seen mum for two years,
(17:12):
but suddenly wants everything done for mum. And then you
look at the data or the correlation between non-beneficial treatment
and complex family dynamics, and it drives up to 3,035%
of low value, futile treatment. And that's incredibly confronting.
S2 (17:27):
Well, it is. It's very, very stressful, very difficult. And
there is another layer to this around inheritance and wills
and assets and all.
S1 (17:39):
Money.
S2 (17:40):
Money.
S1 (17:40):
And families.
S2 (17:41):
And.
S1 (17:41):
All.
S2 (17:41):
That.
S1 (17:41):
Words.
S2 (17:42):
Meaning money here? Yes. Uh, so, uh, yes, it is fraught.
It is fraught. And it's hard. It's hard with the
best circumstances. And it's doubly, triply fraught when there are
unique family dynamics. Uh, driving this as well.
S1 (18:02):
And even in your example of the best family dynamics,
we look at the case across Australia today, less than 14%
of people have a plan in place for this life stage.
And I would argue that even fewer than 14% would
be meaningful and talked about. Um, 11% of people have
a power of attorney.
S2 (18:20):
Yep. I wonder whether, in fact, there's, um, there's things
that we can be doing. Public programs, public awareness programs. Look,
we get it that not everyone comes from, you know,
the perfect family. Yeah. Um, what can we do? What
are some easy steps in order to facilitate this? Or
make it as easy and as, seamless as possible. If
(18:45):
you think of, um, some basic healthcare advice, look, you
might not be wanting to jog every day or whatever,
but here are some basic things you can do. Don't smoke.
Don't take drugs. You know, have a balanced diet, for example. Well,
here are three things that you can do in your
50s to help create that that preferred transition for your
(19:10):
parents in their in their 80s and your and for
your siblings. Uh, and the next generation as.
S1 (19:16):
Well to think about really what is a chapter of life,
you know, for everybody involved. I often use the example
of what I imagine to be a very brave individual
in a boardroom that might have stood up and proposed
that we test people's poo when they turned 50. He
probably got laughed at. A woman probably got laughed out
of the room. But here we are now with a
national program which has incredibly high efficacy, and we've normalized it.
(19:40):
So we've got an incredible track record around, my gosh,
you know, SPF, smoking cessation, mental health. This is one
that we just haven't tackled, we haven't leaned into yet.
And it's about time we did.
S2 (19:52):
Well I agree. And I think these basic healthcare measures,
it goes to a core value that I think applies
to Australians. My overarching view, you know, my 40 years
in demographics and, you know, I formed some views about
what drives Australians. And it is the relentless pursuit of lifestyle,
quality of life. It's why it's why housing is so
(20:14):
important to Australians as well as travel. We're a colonial
people a long way away. We like to travel, we
like to invest in our homes and to maintain good
quality of life. You know, the whole Daryl Kerrigan thing
absolutely hit the button. An aspect of that once lifestyle
and housing is managed. The next thing I think is
(20:37):
wellness and quality of life in later more years lived
better at a at a better quality of life. So
I think Australians are interested, very interested in wellness. Keeping fit.
Keeping healthy. Not necessarily at Olympian levels, but at, you know,
what can I do to live a good quality of life,
(20:58):
to enjoy my quality of life, remain mobile, remain connected
into my 60s, 70s, 80s and and beyond. I think
it goes to that core Australian value of quality of life.
S1 (21:12):
It's interesting because we tend to think about this last
chapter of life with a very medical clinical lens, don't we?
Whereas it's actually not about medicine, it's about people. It's
about what's important to us and our parents and our
in-laws and where we want to be the kind of
care we want or don't want, and how we get
(21:32):
some fundamental conversations and understand that together.
S2 (21:36):
Very interestingly, there's another question in the census that I'm
a big fan of the census.
S1 (21:41):
You ought to be in your line of work, I imagine.
S2 (21:43):
Um, the question around, um, what is your religious affiliation? Now,
most Australians these days say they're nothing. You know, that's
tick the box so that they don't have any religious affiliation.
But of those that do, and there's a little more
than half do. When you look at the age profile,
the people least likely to say they have a religious
(22:04):
affiliation are age 23. At 23, you're young, you're fit,
you're healthy, your parents are alive. You don't have kids,
so you don't have to think about that. And even
your grandparents are probably still around. So you don't kind
of think of it, I suppose. But then it steadily rises.
The proportion of people who say they have some form
of religious belief system, and the people most likely to
(22:27):
believe in a god are aged in their late 80s.
The closer you get to the end of life, the
more you do think about these sorts of things. Now,
is it because you're thinking about the end of life?
Or is it because if you're in your 80s, almost
90 now, you've gone, you probably remember. Maybe you even
(22:48):
remember the depression, the Second World War, all of the
privations thereof. And you might come from an era where
religious belief systems were stronger, perhaps, or it's you become
more reflective, more concerned about the meaning of life. It's
very interesting. My my own mother died at the age
of 95. She was a very devout right throughout her life.
(23:12):
And so but she, um, she would say very philosophical,
had wonderful discussions with her. Uh, she would say, you know,
later in life, even with her belief system, she would
say her question was, what is the purpose? What is
the what is the. It's that question, what is the
meaning of life? And so I think that you do
(23:35):
grapple with those issues in your 80s and 90s? In fact,
it's a it's a different perspective on life when you're 23, 33,
43 young, you're fit, you're healthy, you're pursuing a career,
you're building a home, all that sort of thing. There's
not there's not the space to actually focus on.
S1 (23:56):
Religion brings comfort. It brings anchor. It brings identity. And,
you know, if you correlate that conversation with what we
were talking about earlier around mental health issues, loneliness, grief,
you can understand why people I mean, the strangest thing
happened to me after my husband died. I did go
to Catholic schools, but I certainly didn't kind of stay
(24:18):
religious in my view. But I found myself back in
church for the first few months after he died, and
I can't even explain that today. I just needed somewhere
that maybe felt comforting and familiar in the in the
strangest of ways.
S2 (24:32):
There's no doubt that there is a tremendous role That
or that is fulfilled by religious belief systems for those
in what they would say is their hour of need,
their time of need. And I think it's a human
condition or need that is not just relevant today. It's
been for thousands of years.
S1 (24:54):
But it has been changed.
S2 (24:55):
And probably.
S1 (24:55):
Relationship has changed so much, hasn't it? I think people
would have turned to the doctor or the priest to
make sense of someone aging or approaching the end of
their life or dying, and that relationship is so different
now in modern society that there something else needs to
emerge to help us make sense of this and be
able to talk about it together.
S2 (25:14):
Well, that's true. I'm not quite sure what that what
that is. Maybe there's a there's a role for influencers
to say, look, here is how to discuss the pathway forward.
S1 (25:24):
To normalize.
S2 (25:24):
It. Exactly. That's right.
S1 (25:26):
Coming up we hear about how Bernard was interviewing his
mum two weeks before she died and what she had
to say in the last weeks of her life. Season
one of age hood is brought to you by Always
Carer gateway. Dad's fallen again. The kids won't listen. Your
(25:47):
boss is really losing patience. And that voice in your
head is saying you're failing everyone. Hey. You're not. You're human.
And you don't have to do this alone. Well, ways
carer gateway. Know that caring for someone that you love,
it can be really tough. Whether they have a disability,
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(26:09):
you just shouldn't have to do this alone. Call one
804 2737 or visit Always gateway and find the support
that's really right for you. If you're out there caring
for someone that you love and you need more help
with this chapter of life, you can also access Violet's
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(26:30):
Carer Gateway. You He talked a little bit about your
mum there. Bernard, I know you've written about your mum
in some of your columns over the years. Tell us
a little bit about how you found the experience of
her aging her in her 90s, I guess. Were you
able to talk to her about that chapter of life
(26:51):
in terms of what was important to her?
S2 (26:53):
Ah, yes, very, very much so. In fact, um, I, I, uh,
interviewed her, um, rang her. I live in Melbourne and
she lives in a lived in a Victorian country town.
So I rang her and said, would you mind, uh,
if I interviewed you for my column in The Australian? And, uh,
(27:14):
she was delighted, of course. Um, and, uh, so I
had the chance to ask her at the ages. She
was 94, coming up for her 95th birthday. And she
died two weeks after her 95th birthday. And so it
was an excuse for me to ask questions. Sometimes you
need that. You can't just bowl up after 50 years
(27:36):
and start asking questions. It kind of looks odd.
S1 (27:39):
Very unnerving for people. That's right.
S2 (27:41):
But but I had the. And one of the questions
I asked was and I wrote about this. Um, mum,
now that you're, you know, you're approaching 95, you know,
you must see that this is you're coming towards the
close of life and so forth. Um, are you concerned
about dying? I that's the question I wanted to ask.
(28:04):
I couched it as politely as I possibly could. She
she scoffed and said, no, no. Um. I'm ready. I'm ready.
And she was. She was incredibly devout. Uh, she Catholic,
of course. And, um, she prayed the rosary, uh, twice
(28:27):
a day since she was 80 years old. So was
that 88 years? Twice. I don't know what the mathematics
are of that.
S1 (28:34):
Well, if you don't know, then I definitely don't know.
S2 (28:35):
And I mean, I'm not a churchgoing Catholic myself, but
a rosary is 50 prayers, 55 prayers or whatever it is. Uh, and, uh,
they would she would she and her sister would say, oh,
I could knock it off in ten minutes. Talk about
knocking off the rosary.
S1 (28:52):
My Nana was, like that, very efficient with the rosary.
S2 (28:55):
But if you think about it, saying the same words
twice a day, 50 words, 50 prayers, twice a day
for 88 years. It is akin to meditation in a
modern sense. We'd say this is this is pure mindfulness.
And when I look at the person I wasn't aware
I knew she was devout, but I didn't know until
(29:18):
that moment. It was effectively a month before she died that, uh,
this was twice a day. Uh, in fact. And you'd think, well,
that explains her the strength of character, her surety, the anchor.
The anchor. In fact. So, um, it's interesting. And and
it also has been very it was very, um, reassuring
(29:40):
for me in the sense that, well, 95 it's pretty
good innings, as they say. And she was not concerned. She.
Oh she died in her sleep. Did she? In fact. So, um,
it was perfect from that point of view. And I
think I will, you know, mum, she died on her terms, uh,
in her way. And she was ready. And to me,
(30:02):
that was I could not have asked for and she
would not have asked for anything, anything better? I think so, um,
but I'm deeply aware that this is not everyone's experience.
I feel incredibly lucky to have had that that experience.
S1 (30:17):
And also just the way you've told me that story,
there is a gentleness but a reassurance in the way
that you're thinking about that chapter of your mum's life.
And in all of the conversations I have, more often
than not, people have a very palpable element of regret
as they tell those stories. So I think you're right.
It's you're probably far more the exception than the rule
(30:41):
in the way that that happened for you and your mum.
S2 (30:43):
I think I think she knew the end was near,
and I think she was reassuring me in her words,
if I look back and I've analysed the words, of course. Um,
and uh, so I think that, uh, it was her
making it easy for me. And I thought, you know,
(31:06):
if I'm in that situation years, decades into the future. Yes. Uh,
I think that's that's probably what I would want.
S1 (31:13):
Yeah. You've got a role model to have.
S2 (31:14):
I have indeed, yes. That's right.
S1 (31:17):
I think the research is telling us that about 90%
of us want to be at home. We want to
age in place for as long as we possibly can.
A lot of people would like to die at home,
if that's at all possible. The reality or the misalignment
of what's happening in the system today is almost the
extreme opposite of that. Um, and I'm interested on your
(31:42):
thoughts around a post-pandemic society. You spoke so eloquently for
us in Parliament House earlier this year around the fact
that we work from home, shop from home, Netflix from home,
telehealth from home. How do we think about caring for
aging loved ones at home, where they want to be
in the way that our home has changed so much?
S2 (32:03):
Well, I think this is this is very much the
way of the future. Uh, in fact, there are I've
done quite a bit of work, uh, in aging demographics
of aging with the hospital sector around Australia. And there's
a movement called hospital in the home. So you're quite right.
Work from home, shop from home. Telehealth from home care
is provided in home and hospital. In the home. And
(32:25):
and I think ultimately working towards a situation where if
this is your choice to be able to pass away,
to die at home, not necessarily surrounded by your family,
but in, um, uh, but in circumstances that you are
comfortable with. And there's also a practical element to this.
(32:46):
There are so many baby boomers that are pushing into
their 80s who will pass away over the next five, ten,
20 years or so. It simply is makes good economic
sense for to open up this option. For those who
feel that this is a pathway that that, uh, I
(33:07):
would prefer, as opposed to the, the alternative pathway, which
is to go into care and um, and to possibly
be separated from family or whatever at the time when
it happens.
S1 (33:20):
Or to not talk about it or plan for it
and end up just kind of in the muddle and
the mix of, well, this fall or an infection, or
a series of events that takes you into those very
stressed hospital corridors where so many families are faced with
those decisions today.
S2 (33:35):
Well, this this goes to my issue of of how
do we how do we make this pathway easier for
people and for families into the future? And you use
the phrase some people have not had the discussions or
need to have. We need systems to enable these discussions
(33:57):
to take place. Now, I was very lucky because I
had the excuse can I write a column on your
mum turning 95? Um, I'm sure it.
S1 (34:07):
Inspired a lot of people today.
S2 (34:08):
Well, I would like to. I would like to have
think I would have found another pathway, but I didn't
know the end was only a month away at that
at that stage. So is there a way in which
you can build in a way of normalising those discussions?
Can it be on their birthday? Can it be on
their wedding anniversary? Or can it be at Christmas time? Um,
(34:30):
where where, uh, seemingly or hitherto difficult discussions can be broached,
in fact. And to to secure a conversation with the
older person as to what what they would want. I
(34:50):
know it's very confronting. It's very, very delicate. I was
very fortunate being able to navigate it, but it has
been such I think it was also, uh, help to
my mother. And it was it's been incredibly helpful to
me as well to say, well, yes, you know, it's
what she wanted. She was happy. Uh, and of course,
(35:13):
it has to happen to all of us at some point.
If it must happen, then here is the the best
way for it to occur.
S1 (35:20):
Those conversations are really they're really transformative. They take us
into places that we never thought we could go to
talk about with each other, but they're not often single conversations. Um,
what we find is that there's often little moments in
time where you can sow a seed of an intention
to have a conversation. I talk a lot about just
(35:41):
gently opening the door a little bit, a little bit wider.
You might get a sense that there's a willingness, or
there might be a situation where you can put a
question forward that makes that more possible. But you're so
right to say that you sensed your mum got relief
from that conversation, because we hear that all the time. Um,
so it is it's about the normalizing, a little bit
(36:04):
of courage, a little bit of grace and humility and
stepping into those conversations and bringing them back to the
kitchen table. So we're not in those rushed.
S2 (36:14):
There was a there was another point of that discussion
that I thought was very, very interesting. Um, my mother
didn't swear. Of course. Of course. Uh, and, you know,
not even not even in the slightest way, you know.
S1 (36:28):
Not even.
S2 (36:28):
A I did her.
S1 (36:29):
Every now and then.
S2 (36:30):
I did her once. She said, oh, you know this,
this kid said the B word. I don't even she
probably does know there are other other letter words or whatever. Um,
but she would never say, oh my God, even, even
oh my God, which is OMG these days. And it
(36:53):
had never occurred to me until I was in that discussion. Uh,
I've never heard you even say something like, oh my God,
have you ever? She said no. And I said, that's
a choice, isn't it? She said, yes. And again, it
comes back to this incredible self-discipline. She never told us
(37:15):
not to. That is what worked for her. I did
not discover that until a month before she. Before she died.
S1 (37:25):
Do you know if any of you. I know you
have brothers and sisters. I don't remember how many. Did
they have any conversations with your mom, or were you
the one that kind.
S2 (37:31):
Of.
S1 (37:32):
Instigated that? And did you share it with them?
S2 (37:35):
My sister, I think, had discussions, but not not in
the forensic way that that.
S1 (37:42):
Didn't interview your mom.
S2 (37:43):
Didn't think she interviewed her. But, uh, you know, none
of this, none of these sorts of observations, really, um, uh,
really surprised them, uh, at all. So, uh, anyway, look,
it was, um, when I look back, it was, um,
it was a positive experience in many respects and a
(38:04):
releasing experience in that, in that that conversation enabled me
to move on in a very positive, happy, relieving sort of, uh,
sort of way.
S1 (38:16):
Um, I'm so pleased that that's how that played out
for you and your your family. We are sitting here
in the week after the election, and I'm not going
to get too political. Don't don't worry. I'm not going
to take us down that path. But I'm thinking about
those 5 million Australians. And again, through your analysis, you know,
(38:38):
you've helped paint a picture of typically a 58 year
old woman. That's what the numbers tell us, isn't it?
And I just didn't get any sense from any of
the major parties that the reality of the ageing population
was part of the political conversation, and that it surprises me.
It worries me. What's your view on that, given this
(39:00):
is 5 or 6 years away?
S2 (39:02):
Well, yes, I think it is something that we can
not talk about, but it's going to come up and
bite us on the backside at some point. Um, and uh, yes,
I do. I do make the point that, that it
is 58 year old women who do most of the care. Um,
and that goes to the the census question of do
(39:26):
you provide unpaid care to anyone and the people that say, yes,
they do the most, a 58 year old women, and
then it drops away because at 59 and 60, mum
or dad has died off. There is a sense of relief.
In fact, that's typically the way it works. But I
(39:46):
suppose I wonder whether in fact aging and the baby
boomer needs and so forth, healthcare needs and, you know,
the the transition to passing on, uh, this is all five,
ten plus years out beyond the electoral cycle, perhaps. But
(40:06):
I'm hopeful that as as these trends gather momentum and
escalate over 20, 25, 26, 27, 28 towards 2032, that
will develop an appetite. We can see what's coming, and
we do need to take action in order to. To
(40:27):
deliver the the services and the systems to to manage
to manage this.
S1 (40:31):
And there's some incredibly great work happening to expand home
care services. Nationally. We know that, you know, there's a
lot of reform through aged care and home care very,
very broadly. But I think the idea as a society
to be able to start to talk about and plan
for this, that needs to happen now, that can't wait.
(40:54):
Another three, 4 or 5 years. There's going to be
a lot of pain and a lot of cost for
a lot of people. If we leave that too much longer.
S2 (41:03):
Well, you can you can see it gathering momentum. It's
like you can tell after a long, dry summer, you
can smell rain from beyond the horizon. You can see
the clouds. You can, you know, there's temperature change. You
can actually see that there's there's something coming. A good
example of seeing what's coming is, uh, the, the Australian
(41:25):
Bureau of Statistics estimates of the number of people in
a single occupation, that occupation, being aged and disabled carer
is the time that the job. It's about 400,000 of
them at the moment. Uh, and they are growing. That
category of worker is growing at about 2500 per month,
(41:46):
and it's been doing that per month. And, uh, my
expectation is that by 2030, by 2030. By 2032, it'll
be the largest single occupation in Australia, replacing shop assistant,
which is about half a million at the moment. And
so the whole issue there is one of so there's
(42:08):
2500 extra aged care workers finding employment every month. How
many people do you need to to interview to get
2500 Thousand net extra. It'll be 3500. Who is training?
What is the accreditation system? What is the process by
which these workers and the oldest baby boomer is barely 79.
(42:33):
They're not even in the real zone yet. So this
this is gathering momentum at a rate of knots. And
the peak is still in the early 2030s. In fact,
you can you can feel the storm clouds gathering or
see the storm clouds gathering for what lies not in
(42:55):
this electoral cycle, but in the next electoral cycle.
S1 (42:59):
Which is not that far away. And just on that
kind of theme of, I guess, productivity. You know, so
many of our women and men in this sandwich generation,
you know, there's going to be a huge downward pressure
on productivity as a result of this caregiver role. What
(43:19):
is required of those people and their families as they
care for aging parents and in-laws? And I think that's
a real blind spot as well.
S2 (43:26):
Well, yes, you could argue that it is a drag
on productivity. However, in a civil society, this is what
is required when you have this number of people at
that stage in the life cycle. There's also the argument
that technology can play a role here, and not necessarily
(43:48):
technology in aged care worker. Or there might be little
bits and pieces, but managing a care is a very
human tactile thing. You need to be able to to
be there. However, a good example of this is, um,
the number of waiters on the Australian continent peaked five
years ago 2019. The number of people taking orders at
(44:10):
a cafe, bar, restaurant, whatever it is. We still have
not recovered to the number of waiters we had in 2019.
And I'm thinking, okay, so people who were waiters have
gone off during the pandemic and found something else to do.
Did they move into aged care worker? Because waiters these
days have been partially offset with technology by QR codes? Absolutely.
(44:35):
Sit down to cafe.
S1 (44:36):
That was born in Covid.
S2 (44:37):
That was born in Covid.
S1 (44:38):
Those types of solutions.
S2 (44:39):
So technology QR codes has released labor from one area
to enable it to go to another area. So there
are ways in which I think technology can deliver productivity gains.
But the fact of the matter is, we are a
(44:59):
civil society with a sense of civic responsibility to caring
for those who need care. And for the first time
in human history, we're going to have vast proportions of
our population over the age of 80, over the age
of 85. We need to come up with a system
that delivers the care that that that cohort will require.
S1 (45:23):
And we need to start that very quickly. I hope
that the work that we're doing will be part of
that solution at scale. Part of that normalizing, part of
helping people have those conversations and have a meaningful plan.
But I think, you know, we are just part of
a very big and complex jigsaw. And the headline here
(45:45):
is it is a life stage. It is a chapter
of life. It is not a week or a day
or an hour in time. It's not something many of
us are going to escape either. So, you know, we've
got to get better at it.
S2 (45:57):
Uh, most certainly we do. And I think this is
one of the great challenges for our generation, you know,
how long is human Homo sapiens been on the planet?
You know, I think it's like we can go back
millions of years, but certainly Homo sapiens. Three, 3450000 years.
We are the first generation to actually have a vast
(46:21):
number of people beyond the working stage of the life cycle,
well beyond the working stage of the life cycle, requiring
care from the entire community. We need a political system.
We need an economic system to actually deliver that, that care.
So we need to develop the the protocols, the systems
(46:43):
that actually will deliver that at its peak. Its peak
will come in the 2030s. You can actually project it.
S1 (46:51):
And you.
S2 (46:51):
Have and.
S1 (46:52):
Based on the.
S2 (46:53):
And we need to have those those discussions now. Now
this is not something we need to be panicking, panicky about.
But quietly, purposefully planning and and responding to those challenges
is the great challenge of the next decade.
S1 (47:10):
I think that's a fabulous place for us to land.
Thank you for the conversation. Thanks for the work we've
been doing together, and let's hope that we do see
some of those shifting tides, shifting sands around, normalizing this
life chapter over the next three, five, and ten years.
S2 (47:27):
Thanks, Melissa. It's been a pleasure.
S1 (47:29):
Thanks. You can find more about Bernhard's work by reading
his weekly column in The Australian. It's always a good
read at Violet. We really believe that the last stages
of life, they deserve the same care and planning and
attention as every other milestone. And that's why we're offering
(47:49):
support and guidance and tools for families just like yours,
so that no one has to face this unprepared or unsupported.
If you'd like help making a meaningful plan, starting an
important conversation, or you just need to feel a little
less overwhelmed, head to Violet. Org. And if this episode
helped you, please share it with someone who needs it.
(48:12):
We'd love you to follow age hood. Leave us a
review and join us again next week when we sit
down to talk to Nikki Gemmell, one of Australia's most
well-known and loved authors, to talk about her experiences and
two very different stories of death. If any of today's
(48:36):
topics brought up difficult feelings for you, or you need
some help with this chapter of life, Violet is here
to help you with free phone chats to connect you
with the right support. One on one support programs from
trained Violet guides help with care, emotions and having those
important conversations as well as online tools for healthcare wishes
(48:56):
and decisions. Remember, you don't have to figure this out alone.
Start with Violet. Today's episode of Archwood was brought to
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(49:18):
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voice at Bill will.
Hi, I'm Melissa Reeder and welcome to Hood, the podcast
for people who are quietly carrying it all aging parents,
adult kids, your own work, and your own next chapter.
If that sounds a little like you, well, you are
in your age hood and it's time we talked about it.
Last week we unpacked the realities of what it's actually
(00:37):
like being in the sandwich generation when journalist Sarah MacDonald
shared her story with us. And today we're looking at
what stories like Sarah's and maybe yours mean for the
rest of the country. Bernard Salt is a man known
for turning really complex data into compelling human stories. He's
(01:01):
a social commentator. He's a columnist for The Australian, and
he's also founder of the demographics Group. And you might
remember him best, actually, as the man who questioned why
younger generations were spending a lot of money on smashed
avocado on toast instead of saving for a house. Today,
(01:22):
on Age Hood, Bernard joins me to unpack the growing
pressure on generation X, particularly women, as they care for
aging parents while still supporting their own children and their
own careers. He really helps us to break down the
numbers behind Australia's rapidly ageing population. This coming spike in
people that are reaching 85 in the next 5 or
(01:45):
6 years, and what that's going to mean for families,
care systems and our economy, but also our own emotional bandwidth.
We talk about loneliness, about loss and about grief. A
child is brought to you by Always Carer Gateway, an
(02:06):
incredible organisation offering free counselling, care, coaching and peer support
to people in the community who are supporting a family
member or a friend with a disability, a medical condition,
mental illness or maybe frail and elderly due to age.
Just call one 804 2737 or visit bellway's. Gateway. Sadmin
(02:31):
is the unexpected burden of endless bureaucracy during times of
deep grief. Wills are important, but they don't give critical
information like passwords, bank accounts, and bills. For that, you
need a letter of wishes from today's sponsor. Bill will
go to Bill Wilcox for a simple and secure way
(02:52):
to reduce stress for your loved ones. Share your values
and preserve your voice. Place. Bernard salt. Hello and thank
you for coming and having a chat with me on
Age Hood today.
S2 (03:07):
My pleasure.
S1 (03:07):
It's really lovely to have you here. I know many
listeners will know you as a very insightful columnist from
The Australian and also founder of the demographics Group, where
you have provided that very specialist lens on social trends
and demographic shifts, but alongside your superpower with numbers, you
(03:28):
are an exceptional storyteller. I'm not going to be the
first to tell you that you have an incredible, unmatched
ability to take what could be quite dry statistical narrative
and really paint a vivid picture about who we are
as Australians and how we're evolving as a society.
S2 (03:47):
I like the idea of taking simple numbers and, um,
looking for the story behind the numbers. And to my surprise,
over the years I've discovered that business likes that as well,
because I think they're getting advice from advisors saying, well,
I think this or I reckon that or whatever. Whereas
I say, here are some numbers, and here is what
I think they are saying about Australian values, Australian behaviour.
(04:11):
So there's a there's a metric basis to what I say,
whether in fact what I'm saying is right or not
is another question, but at least there is some sort
of basis to to what I'm saying.
S1 (04:21):
Business people are people and people love stories. So it's,
you know, there's a there's a circular aspect to that.
I'd also say that you are Australia's unofficial wordsmith of
social trends, your, um, brilliant coining of the smashed avocado
back in 2016, very colourful debate on the housing affordability
crisis that followed.
S2 (04:41):
It's most certainly did hit a nerve, not just in
Australia but globally as well. So, um, but you know,
I think that's, um, you know, that's part of the challenge,
you know, to, to raise stories or raise issues, uh,
and to do it in a way that connects with people,
I think.
S1 (04:57):
Yeah. And we've been doing some of that work together
over the last couple of months around really bringing some
color and context to this concept of the sandwich generation,
which we know is a very real experience for about
5 million Australians. So I'm really looking forward to opening
that conversation up today and and understanding both the numbers
(05:17):
and the stories behind it.
S2 (05:19):
A lot of my colour in my analysis involves food.
So smashed avocados or sandwich sandwich generation. Very early on
in my career, I talked about the doughnut effect, which
is where people were leaving the inner city and creating
this doughnut. It's all filled in. Of course, since then,
but I think being able to connect a movement or
(05:42):
a social observation to something that is everyday, that people
connect with, it's just a part of the way of
building the the connection, the story, in fact. Yeah, the
sandwich generation effectively. um, defines people in their 50s who
are looking after their 80 something parents, and at the
same time, they have a responsibility in many ways for
(06:06):
their 20 something kids as well. Now, adults forming relationships
and getting jobs and whatever, uh, and also managing their
own work, their own relationships so they feel as though
and to be fair, that there at that time in
life where they are the meat in the sandwich, the
filling in the sandwich, the.
S1 (06:24):
Triple decker sandwich.
S2 (06:24):
The triple decker, the club sandwich generation, if we want
to be really specific about it. Um, but, uh, yes.
And that that is effectively generation X at the moment,
dealing with, uh, dealing with parents in their aging parents and, uh,
coming of age, uh, kids as well, and managing, in
(06:45):
many respects, their own circumstances because they're still at work
and relationships and whatever.
S1 (06:51):
People are at the peak of their careers. Is, um,
I think there's there's just so much playing out stories
that we're hearing through these submissions of just trying to
keep it all together and being stretched incredibly thin. And
I would say we're at the beginning of that wave.
So let's talk a little bit about the aging population
that's ahead of us, because it's, you know, it's a
(07:12):
it's a term that's again, kind of tossed about. But
you've taught me so much about the numbers. So can
you can you take us through it?
S2 (07:19):
Well, I think there's a number of ways that you
can measure or reflect the, um, the aging of the population.
The one that I like to use is what I
call the the 85 plus bucket. So the total population
in Australia aged 85 plus is increasing over time because
(07:41):
of longevity. We're living longer, healthier lives. So there's more
people hanging around beyond the age of 85. And the
issue is the way in which this is going to
escalate in the future. At the moment, the number of
people turning 85 and remaining alive right through into their
90s and so forth, um, that bucket is growing by
(08:04):
around about ten, 12, maybe 15,000 people per year. So
that goes to the issue of how many nursing home
beds and aged care workers you might need. Now, not
everyone over the age of 85 requires those services. But
to be fair, if you're 85 plus you're in the
zone and we need to be ratcheting up the infrastructure
(08:25):
and the spending, uh, to maintain quality of life for
people aged 85 plus. The issue is that the number
of people in that bucket has been growing at five, ten,
up to 15,000 per year for the last 50 years.
We've gotten used to that. Over the next six years,
the rate of growth is going to go from 1015
(08:48):
to in fact, it was 2000 people per year. In
the early 2030s. And the reason for that is that
the very first baby boomer ever invented, born in 1946,
tips across the 85 line in 2031, 20, 32 or so.
(09:10):
And so it's the baby boomer generation. Healthy living, longer
living into later life, living beyond the age of 85
in accelerating numbers literally over the next ten years and
exponentially over the next 5 or 6 years. That creates
the challenge or the problem.
S1 (09:30):
And that's a five fold increase.
S2 (09:32):
It's a five fold increase. And when you've probably built
a career in healthcare, aged care, public administration, coping with
the 85 plus bucket, expanding by 5 or 10,000 per year,
you can kind of manage it if it all of
a sudden then goes to 60,000, And then it just
(09:52):
it just it explodes. And I think this is the
issue with the baby boomer generation at every stage of
the life cycle. They have had an impact as hippies, punks,
dinks and yuppies. So they created the hippie movement in
Australian major cities. When they went to universities in their
teenage late teenage years, 20 something had to build universities,
(10:14):
new universities like Macquarie in Sydney, Flinders in Adelaide, Griffith
in Brisbane, Monash in Melbourne. So when they pass through
a stage in the life cycle there is an impact.
And while they remain in the workforce, well, that's generates
wealth and prosperity. They're earning an income. They're paying tax.
(10:36):
The tax base rises. It kind of is an issue
in the 2020s as they start to come out of
the workforce. It is a real issue when they start
impacting Acting the 85 plus bucket, where the demand for
healthcare and care services absolutely skyrockets. And that's the phase
(10:58):
that we're going through over the next ten years.
S1 (11:02):
And arguably, this is going to have an impact on
almost every family, almost every community across the country in
one way or another. And I think it's important to
remember these are elderly Australians who have contributed to everything
this country has achieved over the course of their lives.
So how do we think about the kind of care
(11:22):
that that group need, and how ready are we to
provide it?
S2 (11:25):
Well, I always argue that it's not just the 85
plus people themselves, of course, you know, needing services and
care and support and so forth. It is the families
that reverberate down the next generation, the the people caring
for them. People probably administering and managing their care are
in their 50s, today's Generation Xers and grandchildren. Of course,
(11:48):
in their teens and early 20s. So what happens to
the 85 plus bucket has an echo effect in the
50s and in the 20s as well. There's another there's another, um,
piece of information. Demographic information I think is really important
in this story. And that is that there is a
(12:09):
there is a new question that was asked at the
last census. We have a census every five years. We
ask 62 questions. The Americans have a census every ten years.
They ask 12 questions. It's a big deal to whack
another question into the census. We've already got 62. You
can't be can't be adding questions willy nilly. Uh, the
(12:29):
question that got across the line was, have you ever
been told by a healthcare professional doctor or a nurse
that you have a long term mental health condition, anxiety
or depression? The the answers to that question were absolutely, um, significant, um,
about 10% of the population said yes, that they have
(12:53):
been told at some time in their life. When you
look at it across the age profile, it the anxiety
and depression in the average Australian subsides after the age
of 65. The minute you leave work, all your anxiety
and depression and you know you've got grandkids arriving, you've
paid off your house, your kids are partnered up. You know,
(13:14):
everything seems to be fine. Yeah. The golden years. Yeah. And,
you know, you might have a couple of health issues,
but they're not dire in your late 60s and 70s generally.
But it skyrockets at the age of 78, 79 and
80 and remains elevated right across the 80s and gets
even worse into the 90s. And the reason for that,
(13:36):
I think, is the loss of a life partner. Typically,
the male grandpa will pass away at about 70, 78, 79, 7980.
Grandma is left alone. And of course, that then creates
what I think we're going to see with the aging
of the baby boomers a loneliness epidemic. The oldest baby
(14:00):
boomer today, born in 1946, is 79. So we've got
5 million baby boomers pushing into their late 70s, early
80s and progressively literally over the next five years, we
are going to see a rise in people living singly,
(14:21):
and we're going to see a rise in loneliness. Now
loneliness is offset by connectivity, connectivity to the community and
to the family. So these are the issues that we
will need to be addressing as a nation. In addition
to the straight healthcare aged care costs that come with
the arrival of that generation.
S1 (14:42):
There are the hard costs and the soft costs, aren't they,
that sit with this? One of the really interesting things,
and you and I have talked about this a little
bit previously, when you think about that statistic is I
wonder what the role of grief is in those mental
health statistics, because you think about the prevalence of dementia.
You think about what it means to lose your life partner,
or even have your life partner go into residential care. Um,
(15:06):
there's anticipatory grief that happens from a diagnosis, from one
of those changes right through to actual bereavement.
S2 (15:13):
Well, grief and bereavement, uh, is is very real, of course,
and especially for people who've been married for 50 years
or so, their way of life, the whole family, the
whole community is, is interlinked with someone else. Then all
of a sudden they pass away. And that that is
not always an easy transition. You know, it often comes
(15:35):
more often than.
S1 (15:36):
Not incredibly hard.
S2 (15:37):
Isn't it?
S1 (15:38):
It's painful.
S2 (15:38):
Very painful, very difficult, very stressful. Um, and requires not
just not just the engagement of a life partner, but
also your kids, kids, even, you know, losing, losing a
parent in your 50s is still a painful experience. You know, grief.
(16:00):
And in fact, in many respects, it's there's so much,
so much history, so much connectivity, so much emotion. Identity.
And so yes, it does. It does cause stress. I
will also say that there's another stress that comes with this,
that not everyone comes from a happy family that is
(16:22):
functioning and works together, where all the siblings are.
S1 (16:26):
I think most families have a story where.
S2 (16:28):
That isn't quite.
S1 (16:29):
The case.
S2 (16:29):
Every time I raise this, everyone puts their hand up
and says, oh, that's us, that's us.
S1 (16:33):
Let me tell you about what happens.
S2 (16:34):
But you know, in an ideal world, it's hard enough
when everyone is working together, has the same values, the
same thinking, same priorities in in making these transitions for
mum and dad or for mum because dad's passed away
or whatever.
S1 (16:50):
So I find that bit really, really interesting because when
we look at really the overwhelming lack of people's ability
to talk about or plan for this life stage, you
end up with those really complex family dynamics that you're
talking about. Everyone's not on the same page. Siblings might
be interstate. The eldest brother might fly in at the
last moment, might not have seen mum for two years,
(17:12):
but suddenly wants everything done for mum. And then you
look at the data or the correlation between non-beneficial treatment
and complex family dynamics, and it drives up to 3,035%
of low value, futile treatment. And that's incredibly confronting.
S2 (17:27):
Well, it is. It's very, very stressful, very difficult. And
there is another layer to this around inheritance and wills
and assets and all.
S1 (17:39):
Money.
S2 (17:40):
Money.
S1 (17:40):
And families.
S2 (17:41):
And.
S1 (17:41):
All.
S2 (17:41):
That.
S1 (17:41):
Words.
S2 (17:42):
Meaning money here? Yes. Uh, so, uh, yes, it is fraught.
It is fraught. And it's hard. It's hard with the
best circumstances. And it's doubly, triply fraught when there are
unique family dynamics. Uh, driving this as well.
S1 (18:02):
And even in your example of the best family dynamics,
we look at the case across Australia today, less than 14%
of people have a plan in place for this life stage.
And I would argue that even fewer than 14% would
be meaningful and talked about. Um, 11% of people have
a power of attorney.
S2 (18:20):
Yep. I wonder whether, in fact, there's, um, there's things
that we can be doing. Public programs, public awareness programs. Look,
we get it that not everyone comes from, you know,
the perfect family. Yeah. Um, what can we do? What
are some easy steps in order to facilitate this? Or
make it as easy and as, seamless as possible. If
(18:45):
you think of, um, some basic healthcare advice, look, you
might not be wanting to jog every day or whatever,
but here are some basic things you can do. Don't smoke.
Don't take drugs. You know, have a balanced diet, for example. Well,
here are three things that you can do in your
50s to help create that that preferred transition for your
(19:10):
parents in their in their 80s and your and for
your siblings. Uh, and the next generation as.
S1 (19:16):
Well to think about really what is a chapter of life,
you know, for everybody involved. I often use the example
of what I imagine to be a very brave individual
in a boardroom that might have stood up and proposed
that we test people's poo when they turned 50. He
probably got laughed at. A woman probably got laughed out
of the room. But here we are now with a
national program which has incredibly high efficacy, and we've normalized it.
(19:40):
So we've got an incredible track record around, my gosh,
you know, SPF, smoking cessation, mental health. This is one
that we just haven't tackled, we haven't leaned into yet.
And it's about time we did.
S2 (19:52):
Well I agree. And I think these basic healthcare measures,
it goes to a core value that I think applies
to Australians. My overarching view, you know, my 40 years
in demographics and, you know, I formed some views about
what drives Australians. And it is the relentless pursuit of lifestyle,
quality of life. It's why it's why housing is so
(20:14):
important to Australians as well as travel. We're a colonial
people a long way away. We like to travel, we
like to invest in our homes and to maintain good
quality of life. You know, the whole Daryl Kerrigan thing
absolutely hit the button. An aspect of that once lifestyle
and housing is managed. The next thing I think is
(20:37):
wellness and quality of life in later more years lived
better at a at a better quality of life. So
I think Australians are interested, very interested in wellness. Keeping fit.
Keeping healthy. Not necessarily at Olympian levels, but at, you know,
what can I do to live a good quality of life,
(20:58):
to enjoy my quality of life, remain mobile, remain connected
into my 60s, 70s, 80s and and beyond. I think
it goes to that core Australian value of quality of life.
S1 (21:12):
It's interesting because we tend to think about this last
chapter of life with a very medical clinical lens, don't we?
Whereas it's actually not about medicine, it's about people. It's
about what's important to us and our parents and our
in-laws and where we want to be the kind of
care we want or don't want, and how we get
(21:32):
some fundamental conversations and understand that together.
S2 (21:36):
Very interestingly, there's another question in the census that I'm
a big fan of the census.
S1 (21:41):
You ought to be in your line of work, I imagine.
S2 (21:43):
Um, the question around, um, what is your religious affiliation? Now,
most Australians these days say they're nothing. You know, that's
tick the box so that they don't have any religious affiliation.
But of those that do, and there's a little more
than half do. When you look at the age profile,
the people least likely to say they have a religious
(22:04):
affiliation are age 23. At 23, you're young, you're fit,
you're healthy, your parents are alive. You don't have kids,
so you don't have to think about that. And even
your grandparents are probably still around. So you don't kind
of think of it, I suppose. But then it steadily rises.
The proportion of people who say they have some form
of religious belief system, and the people most likely to
(22:27):
believe in a god are aged in their late 80s.
The closer you get to the end of life, the
more you do think about these sorts of things. Now,
is it because you're thinking about the end of life?
Or is it because if you're in your 80s, almost
90 now, you've gone, you probably remember. Maybe you even
(22:48):
remember the depression, the Second World War, all of the
privations thereof. And you might come from an era where
religious belief systems were stronger, perhaps, or it's you become
more reflective, more concerned about the meaning of life. It's
very interesting. My my own mother died at the age
of 95. She was a very devout right throughout her life.
(23:12):
And so but she, um, she would say very philosophical,
had wonderful discussions with her. Uh, she would say, you know,
later in life, even with her belief system, she would
say her question was, what is the purpose? What is
the what is the. It's that question, what is the
meaning of life? And so I think that you do
(23:35):
grapple with those issues in your 80s and 90s? In fact,
it's a it's a different perspective on life when you're 23, 33,
43 young, you're fit, you're healthy, you're pursuing a career,
you're building a home, all that sort of thing. There's
not there's not the space to actually focus on.
S1 (23:56):
Religion brings comfort. It brings anchor. It brings identity. And,
you know, if you correlate that conversation with what we
were talking about earlier around mental health issues, loneliness, grief,
you can understand why people I mean, the strangest thing
happened to me after my husband died. I did go
to Catholic schools, but I certainly didn't kind of stay
(24:18):
religious in my view. But I found myself back in
church for the first few months after he died, and
I can't even explain that today. I just needed somewhere
that maybe felt comforting and familiar in the in the
strangest of ways.
S2 (24:32):
There's no doubt that there is a tremendous role That
or that is fulfilled by religious belief systems for those
in what they would say is their hour of need,
their time of need. And I think it's a human
condition or need that is not just relevant today. It's
been for thousands of years.
S1 (24:54):
But it has been changed.
S2 (24:55):
And probably.
S1 (24:55):
Relationship has changed so much, hasn't it? I think people
would have turned to the doctor or the priest to
make sense of someone aging or approaching the end of
their life or dying, and that relationship is so different
now in modern society that there something else needs to
emerge to help us make sense of this and be
able to talk about it together.
S2 (25:14):
Well, that's true. I'm not quite sure what that what
that is. Maybe there's a there's a role for influencers
to say, look, here is how to discuss the pathway forward.
S1 (25:24):
To normalize.
S2 (25:24):
It. Exactly. That's right.
S1 (25:26):
Coming up we hear about how Bernard was interviewing his
mum two weeks before she died and what she had
to say in the last weeks of her life. Season
one of age hood is brought to you by Always
Carer gateway. Dad's fallen again. The kids won't listen. Your
(25:47):
boss is really losing patience. And that voice in your
head is saying you're failing everyone. Hey. You're not. You're human.
And you don't have to do this alone. Well, ways
carer gateway. Know that caring for someone that you love,
it can be really tough. Whether they have a disability,
a mental illness or being elderly and frail. And we
always are offering free counselling, coaching and peer support because
(26:09):
you just shouldn't have to do this alone. Call one
804 2737 or visit Always gateway and find the support
that's really right for you. If you're out there caring
for someone that you love and you need more help
with this chapter of life, you can also access Violet's
support programs. They are fully funded through the Well Ways
(26:30):
Carer Gateway. You He talked a little bit about your
mum there. Bernard, I know you've written about your mum
in some of your columns over the years. Tell us
a little bit about how you found the experience of
her aging her in her 90s, I guess. Were you
able to talk to her about that chapter of life
(26:51):
in terms of what was important to her?
S2 (26:53):
Ah, yes, very, very much so. In fact, um, I, I, uh,
interviewed her, um, rang her. I live in Melbourne and
she lives in a lived in a Victorian country town.
So I rang her and said, would you mind, uh,
if I interviewed you for my column in The Australian? And, uh,
(27:14):
she was delighted, of course. Um, and, uh, so I
had the chance to ask her at the ages. She
was 94, coming up for her 95th birthday. And she
died two weeks after her 95th birthday. And so it
was an excuse for me to ask questions. Sometimes you
need that. You can't just bowl up after 50 years
(27:36):
and start asking questions. It kind of looks odd.
S1 (27:39):
Very unnerving for people. That's right.
S2 (27:41):
But but I had the. And one of the questions
I asked was and I wrote about this. Um, mum,
now that you're, you know, you're approaching 95, you know,
you must see that this is you're coming towards the
close of life and so forth. Um, are you concerned
about dying? I that's the question I wanted to ask.
(28:04):
I couched it as politely as I possibly could. She
she scoffed and said, no, no. Um. I'm ready. I'm ready.
And she was. She was incredibly devout. Uh, she Catholic,
of course. And, um, she prayed the rosary, uh, twice
(28:27):
a day since she was 80 years old. So was
that 88 years? Twice. I don't know what the mathematics
are of that.
S1 (28:34):
Well, if you don't know, then I definitely don't know.
S2 (28:35):
And I mean, I'm not a churchgoing Catholic myself, but
a rosary is 50 prayers, 55 prayers or whatever it is. Uh, and, uh,
they would she would she and her sister would say, oh,
I could knock it off in ten minutes. Talk about
knocking off the rosary.
S1 (28:52):
My Nana was, like that, very efficient with the rosary.
S2 (28:55):
But if you think about it, saying the same words
twice a day, 50 words, 50 prayers, twice a day
for 88 years. It is akin to meditation in a
modern sense. We'd say this is this is pure mindfulness.
And when I look at the person I wasn't aware
I knew she was devout, but I didn't know until
(29:18):
that moment. It was effectively a month before she died that, uh,
this was twice a day. Uh, in fact. And you'd think, well,
that explains her the strength of character, her surety, the anchor.
The anchor. In fact. So, um, it's interesting. And and
it also has been very it was very, um, reassuring
(29:40):
for me in the sense that, well, 95 it's pretty
good innings, as they say. And she was not concerned. She.
Oh she died in her sleep. Did she? In fact. So, um,
it was perfect from that point of view. And I
think I will, you know, mum, she died on her terms, uh,
in her way. And she was ready. And to me,
(30:02):
that was I could not have asked for and she
would not have asked for anything, anything better? I think so, um,
but I'm deeply aware that this is not everyone's experience.
I feel incredibly lucky to have had that that experience.
S1 (30:17):
And also just the way you've told me that story,
there is a gentleness but a reassurance in the way
that you're thinking about that chapter of your mum's life.
And in all of the conversations I have, more often
than not, people have a very palpable element of regret
as they tell those stories. So I think you're right.
It's you're probably far more the exception than the rule
(30:41):
in the way that that happened for you and your mum.
S2 (30:43):
I think I think she knew the end was near,
and I think she was reassuring me in her words,
if I look back and I've analysed the words, of course. Um,
and uh, so I think that, uh, it was her
making it easy for me. And I thought, you know,
(31:06):
if I'm in that situation years, decades into the future. Yes. Uh,
I think that's that's probably what I would want.
S1 (31:13):
Yeah. You've got a role model to have.
S2 (31:14):
I have indeed, yes. That's right.
S1 (31:17):
I think the research is telling us that about 90%
of us want to be at home. We want to
age in place for as long as we possibly can.
A lot of people would like to die at home,
if that's at all possible. The reality or the misalignment
of what's happening in the system today is almost the
extreme opposite of that. Um, and I'm interested on your
(31:42):
thoughts around a post-pandemic society. You spoke so eloquently for
us in Parliament House earlier this year around the fact
that we work from home, shop from home, Netflix from home,
telehealth from home. How do we think about caring for
aging loved ones at home, where they want to be
in the way that our home has changed so much?
S2 (32:03):
Well, I think this is this is very much the
way of the future. Uh, in fact, there are I've
done quite a bit of work, uh, in aging demographics
of aging with the hospital sector around Australia. And there's
a movement called hospital in the home. So you're quite right.
Work from home, shop from home. Telehealth from home care
is provided in home and hospital. In the home. And
(32:25):
and I think ultimately working towards a situation where if
this is your choice to be able to pass away,
to die at home, not necessarily surrounded by your family,
but in, um, uh, but in circumstances that you are
comfortable with. And there's also a practical element to this.
(32:46):
There are so many baby boomers that are pushing into
their 80s who will pass away over the next five, ten,
20 years or so. It simply is makes good economic
sense for to open up this option. For those who
feel that this is a pathway that that, uh, I
(33:07):
would prefer, as opposed to the, the alternative pathway, which
is to go into care and um, and to possibly
be separated from family or whatever at the time when
it happens.
S1 (33:20):
Or to not talk about it or plan for it
and end up just kind of in the muddle and
the mix of, well, this fall or an infection, or
a series of events that takes you into those very
stressed hospital corridors where so many families are faced with
those decisions today.
S2 (33:35):
Well, this this goes to my issue of of how
do we how do we make this pathway easier for
people and for families into the future? And you use
the phrase some people have not had the discussions or
need to have. We need systems to enable these discussions
(33:57):
to take place. Now, I was very lucky because I
had the excuse can I write a column on your
mum turning 95? Um, I'm sure it.
S1 (34:07):
Inspired a lot of people today.
S2 (34:08):
Well, I would like to. I would like to have
think I would have found another pathway, but I didn't
know the end was only a month away at that
at that stage. So is there a way in which
you can build in a way of normalising those discussions?
Can it be on their birthday? Can it be on
their wedding anniversary? Or can it be at Christmas time? Um,
(34:30):
where where, uh, seemingly or hitherto difficult discussions can be broached,
in fact. And to to secure a conversation with the
older person as to what what they would want. I
(34:50):
know it's very confronting. It's very, very delicate. I was
very fortunate being able to navigate it, but it has
been such I think it was also, uh, help to
my mother. And it was it's been incredibly helpful to
me as well to say, well, yes, you know, it's
what she wanted. She was happy. Uh, and of course,
(35:13):
it has to happen to all of us at some point.
If it must happen, then here is the the best
way for it to occur.
S1 (35:20):
Those conversations are really they're really transformative. They take us
into places that we never thought we could go to
talk about with each other, but they're not often single conversations. Um,
what we find is that there's often little moments in
time where you can sow a seed of an intention
to have a conversation. I talk a lot about just
(35:41):
gently opening the door a little bit, a little bit wider.
You might get a sense that there's a willingness, or
there might be a situation where you can put a
question forward that makes that more possible. But you're so
right to say that you sensed your mum got relief
from that conversation, because we hear that all the time. Um,
so it is it's about the normalizing, a little bit
(36:04):
of courage, a little bit of grace and humility and
stepping into those conversations and bringing them back to the
kitchen table. So we're not in those rushed.
S2 (36:14):
There was a there was another point of that discussion
that I thought was very, very interesting. Um, my mother
didn't swear. Of course. Of course. Uh, and, you know,
not even not even in the slightest way, you know.
S1 (36:28):
Not even.
S2 (36:28):
A I did her.
S1 (36:29):
Every now and then.
S2 (36:30):
I did her once. She said, oh, you know this,
this kid said the B word. I don't even she
probably does know there are other other letter words or whatever. Um,
but she would never say, oh my God, even, even
oh my God, which is OMG these days. And it
(36:53):
had never occurred to me until I was in that discussion. Uh,
I've never heard you even say something like, oh my God,
have you ever? She said no. And I said, that's
a choice, isn't it? She said, yes. And again, it
comes back to this incredible self-discipline. She never told us
(37:15):
not to. That is what worked for her. I did
not discover that until a month before she. Before she died.
S1 (37:25):
Do you know if any of you. I know you
have brothers and sisters. I don't remember how many. Did
they have any conversations with your mom, or were you
the one that kind.
S2 (37:31):
Of.
S1 (37:32):
Instigated that? And did you share it with them?
S2 (37:35):
My sister, I think, had discussions, but not not in
the forensic way that that.
S1 (37:42):
Didn't interview your mom.
S2 (37:43):
Didn't think she interviewed her. But, uh, you know, none
of this, none of these sorts of observations, really, um, uh,
really surprised them, uh, at all. So, uh, anyway, look,
it was, um, when I look back, it was, um,
it was a positive experience in many respects and a
(38:04):
releasing experience in that, in that that conversation enabled me
to move on in a very positive, happy, relieving sort of, uh,
sort of way.
S1 (38:16):
Um, I'm so pleased that that's how that played out
for you and your your family. We are sitting here
in the week after the election, and I'm not going
to get too political. Don't don't worry. I'm not going
to take us down that path. But I'm thinking about
those 5 million Australians. And again, through your analysis, you know,
(38:38):
you've helped paint a picture of typically a 58 year
old woman. That's what the numbers tell us, isn't it?
And I just didn't get any sense from any of
the major parties that the reality of the ageing population
was part of the political conversation, and that it surprises me.
It worries me. What's your view on that, given this
(39:00):
is 5 or 6 years away?
S2 (39:02):
Well, yes, I think it is something that we can
not talk about, but it's going to come up and
bite us on the backside at some point. Um, and uh, yes,
I do. I do make the point that, that it
is 58 year old women who do most of the care. Um,
and that goes to the the census question of do
(39:26):
you provide unpaid care to anyone and the people that say, yes,
they do the most, a 58 year old women, and
then it drops away because at 59 and 60, mum
or dad has died off. There is a sense of relief.
In fact, that's typically the way it works. But I
(39:46):
suppose I wonder whether in fact aging and the baby
boomer needs and so forth, healthcare needs and, you know,
the the transition to passing on, uh, this is all five,
ten plus years out beyond the electoral cycle, perhaps. But
(40:06):
I'm hopeful that as as these trends gather momentum and
escalate over 20, 25, 26, 27, 28 towards 2032, that
will develop an appetite. We can see what's coming, and
we do need to take action in order to. To
(40:27):
deliver the the services and the systems to to manage
to manage this.
S1 (40:31):
And there's some incredibly great work happening to expand home
care services. Nationally. We know that, you know, there's a
lot of reform through aged care and home care very,
very broadly. But I think the idea as a society
to be able to start to talk about and plan
for this, that needs to happen now, that can't wait.
(40:54):
Another three, 4 or 5 years. There's going to be
a lot of pain and a lot of cost for
a lot of people. If we leave that too much longer.
S2 (41:03):
Well, you can you can see it gathering momentum. It's
like you can tell after a long, dry summer, you
can smell rain from beyond the horizon. You can see
the clouds. You can, you know, there's temperature change. You
can actually see that there's there's something coming. A good
example of seeing what's coming is, uh, the, the Australian
(41:25):
Bureau of Statistics estimates of the number of people in
a single occupation, that occupation, being aged and disabled carer
is the time that the job. It's about 400,000 of
them at the moment. Uh, and they are growing. That
category of worker is growing at about 2500 per month,
(41:46):
and it's been doing that per month. And, uh, my
expectation is that by 2030, by 2030. By 2032, it'll
be the largest single occupation in Australia, replacing shop assistant,
which is about half a million at the moment. And
so the whole issue there is one of so there's
(42:08):
2500 extra aged care workers finding employment every month. How
many people do you need to to interview to get
2500 Thousand net extra. It'll be 3500. Who is training?
What is the accreditation system? What is the process by
which these workers and the oldest baby boomer is barely 79.
(42:33):
They're not even in the real zone yet. So this
this is gathering momentum at a rate of knots. And
the peak is still in the early 2030s. In fact,
you can you can feel the storm clouds gathering or
see the storm clouds gathering for what lies not in
(42:55):
this electoral cycle, but in the next electoral cycle.
S1 (42:59):
Which is not that far away. And just on that
kind of theme of, I guess, productivity. You know, so
many of our women and men in this sandwich generation,
you know, there's going to be a huge downward pressure
on productivity as a result of this caregiver role. What
(43:19):
is required of those people and their families as they
care for aging parents and in-laws? And I think that's
a real blind spot as well.
S2 (43:26):
Well, yes, you could argue that it is a drag
on productivity. However, in a civil society, this is what
is required when you have this number of people at
that stage in the life cycle. There's also the argument
that technology can play a role here, and not necessarily
(43:48):
technology in aged care worker. Or there might be little
bits and pieces, but managing a care is a very
human tactile thing. You need to be able to to
be there. However, a good example of this is, um,
the number of waiters on the Australian continent peaked five
years ago 2019. The number of people taking orders at
(44:10):
a cafe, bar, restaurant, whatever it is. We still have
not recovered to the number of waiters we had in 2019.
And I'm thinking, okay, so people who were waiters have
gone off during the pandemic and found something else to do.
Did they move into aged care worker? Because waiters these
days have been partially offset with technology by QR codes? Absolutely.
(44:35):
Sit down to cafe.
S1 (44:36):
That was born in Covid.
S2 (44:37):
That was born in Covid.
S1 (44:38):
Those types of solutions.
S2 (44:39):
So technology QR codes has released labor from one area
to enable it to go to another area. So there
are ways in which I think technology can deliver productivity gains.
But the fact of the matter is, we are a
(44:59):
civil society with a sense of civic responsibility to caring
for those who need care. And for the first time
in human history, we're going to have vast proportions of
our population over the age of 80, over the age
of 85. We need to come up with a system
that delivers the care that that that cohort will require.
S1 (45:23):
And we need to start that very quickly. I hope
that the work that we're doing will be part of
that solution at scale. Part of that normalizing, part of
helping people have those conversations and have a meaningful plan.
But I think, you know, we are just part of
a very big and complex jigsaw. And the headline here
(45:45):
is it is a life stage. It is a chapter
of life. It is not a week or a day
or an hour in time. It's not something many of
us are going to escape either. So, you know, we've
got to get better at it.
S2 (45:57):
Uh, most certainly we do. And I think this is
one of the great challenges for our generation, you know,
how long is human Homo sapiens been on the planet?
You know, I think it's like we can go back
millions of years, but certainly Homo sapiens. Three, 3450000 years.
We are the first generation to actually have a vast
(46:21):
number of people beyond the working stage of the life cycle,
well beyond the working stage of the life cycle, requiring
care from the entire community. We need a political system.
We need an economic system to actually deliver that, that care.
So we need to develop the the protocols, the systems
(46:43):
that actually will deliver that at its peak. Its peak
will come in the 2030s. You can actually project it.
S1 (46:51):
And you.
S2 (46:51):
Have and.
S1 (46:52):
Based on the.
S2 (46:53):
And we need to have those those discussions now. Now
this is not something we need to be panicking, panicky about.
But quietly, purposefully planning and and responding to those challenges
is the great challenge of the next decade.
S1 (47:10):
I think that's a fabulous place for us to land.
Thank you for the conversation. Thanks for the work we've
been doing together, and let's hope that we do see
some of those shifting tides, shifting sands around, normalizing this
life chapter over the next three, five, and ten years.
S2 (47:27):
Thanks, Melissa. It's been a pleasure.
S1 (47:29):
Thanks. You can find more about Bernhard's work by reading
his weekly column in The Australian. It's always a good
read at Violet. We really believe that the last stages
of life, they deserve the same care and planning and
attention as every other milestone. And that's why we're offering
(47:49):
support and guidance and tools for families just like yours,
so that no one has to face this unprepared or unsupported.
If you'd like help making a meaningful plan, starting an
important conversation, or you just need to feel a little
less overwhelmed, head to Violet. Org. And if this episode
helped you, please share it with someone who needs it.
(48:12):
We'd love you to follow age hood. Leave us a
review and join us again next week when we sit
down to talk to Nikki Gemmell, one of Australia's most
well-known and loved authors, to talk about her experiences and
two very different stories of death. If any of today's
(48:36):
topics brought up difficult feelings for you, or you need
some help with this chapter of life, Violet is here
to help you with free phone chats to connect you
with the right support. One on one support programs from
trained Violet guides help with care, emotions and having those
important conversations as well as online tools for healthcare wishes
(48:56):
and decisions. Remember, you don't have to figure this out alone.
Start with Violet. Today's episode of Archwood was brought to
you by Welby's Carer Gateway. They're offering free counselling, career
coaching and peer group sessions to people out in the
community who are supporting family member or a friend with
(49:18):
a disability, a medical condition, a mental illness or who
is maybe frail due to age. And this is all
provided by an incredibly caring team who understand what you're
going through. You don't have to do this alone. Just
call one 804 2737 or visit. Gateway. This episode was
(49:40):
brought to you by Bill Will Sadmin is an unpleasant,
often unexpected burden during times of deep grief and lightning.
That burden, for those closest to you with a letter
of wishes from Bill Will is really an act of love.
Help navigate the tangle of passwords, the bank accounts, the bills,
and more, all while expressing your personal preferences. Reduce stress
(50:04):
for your loved ones. Share your values and preserve your
voice at Bill will.
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