March 17, 2025 • 32 mins
Anthony Seibold knows high-pressure leadership. As Head Coach of the Manly Sea Eagles, he’s led some of the NRL’s biggest teams, including the Melbourne Storm, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Brisbane Broncos, and Queensland’s State of Origin.
Beyond the field, he’s a sought-after speaker on leadership, resilience, and building high-performance teams. His journey hasn’t been without challenges, but his ability to adapt, lead, and come back stronger is what makes him such a fascinating guest.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Happy people create happy businesses, true emotionally intelligent leadership. I've
picked up Vombit once on our about our fourth flight
and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
I can do it. Now we will be joined by
culture and leadership experts and some superstar CEOs who will
(00:28):
courageously tell us the truth behind their brave leadership journeys.
Today I am joined by Anthony Seabolt. Now love me
as sporting personality, so I'm really thrilled to have you
here today. Anthony, you are the current head of the
Manly Sea Eagles. I guess footy fans will know you,
but for people who aren't into footy, I guess your
background being that you've been in the innel for many
(00:49):
years now, including Melbourne Storm, South Sydney, Bristoe, Broncos, Queen's
and Instead of Origin team, and you also work for
England Rugby as an assistant coach as well. So welcome.
Nice to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, it's always good to chat at Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I do love speaking to people in sport. Because I
think the similarity into leadership and team are just great analogies.
But the other reason I really wanted to talk to
you is because you seem to have this passion for leadership.
It's been long standing, actually greater than I've seen in
a lot of other people. Where did that all start from?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I've always been curious, and I played just a professional
rugby league myself where I was a young guy, but
I did a teaching degree and so by the time
I was twenty one before rugby league went full time
professionally and I was actually teaching sixth class, and so
it's a really good influencers in the education industry and
good influencers around leadership principals and some deputy principles that
I had when I was a young guy. But also
(01:41):
when I finished playing over the English Super Leaguer came
back and I was a teacher and then a university
lecturer that I had a great senior lecturer there. So
I think a lot of sort of that leadership passion
came from the back of really good role modeling from others.
And then obviously I've sort of graduated from one level
to the neccsent coach over a long period of time,
I've sort of had experiences with some fantastic leaders in
(02:01):
the sporting industry, and then through my curiosity, I've actually
been able to spend time with some of the best
leaders in the business world as well, including one recently
with the Conwell Banksy Matt Kind and I've got a
good relationship with Matt, so we spent a favorite of
time together in the last of the twelve sixteen months.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, awesome. So being a teacher was what you wanted
to do when you're growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
He was interesting. I came out of Central Queens ad
and I was recruited by President Broncards as a seventeen
year old. So I just finished boarding school. A squad
shatter at boarding school, I got to say, like, you know,
as an all boys boarding school in regional Central Queens
and and I came down and signed for the Broncos.
Now in those days, this is the early nineties, so
I came down in ninety ninety two or seventeen. Rugby
league was in full time evan at the Broncos level.
(02:42):
We see on TV all those guys would have jobs
or studying or apprenticeships, and then we were trained of
an afternoon you'd see the guys on the TV on
the weekend. So came down and one of the key
staff there, the broncos Connel. He's no longer with us,
he's passed away, but he was a legendary figure in
education and Raugbid League in Queens and he really encouraged
me to do a teaching degree and he said, look,
wherever you go in the world, it'll always be works
(03:04):
the teacher and if it's not teaching that you do,
it all be a really good grounding. So he influenced
me then. But it's almost twenty one, believe it or not.
I was teaching year six.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
What was that like? Teaching year six?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It was really interesting because you know, as a twenty
one year old, like I think back on a twenty
one year old self, cannot believe or I had a
class of twenty five plus hits. Because we'd play away
in Sydney or wherever we would play and then on
five back Sunday night and you'd be in the classroom
on a Monday morning. It was different. It was different
for a twenty one year old because I was still
getting to know myself.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, I was on Kenticky too. Its then and you
were teaching in classrooms.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, yeah, you know so, yeah, I was quite a
livature and it was a good learning experience structure and
organization and you're influencing others, right, albeit I was only
twenty one. I had to be organized, well planned and
well fought out for those kids and it was wonderful experience.
And I did it for twelve months and then m'd
be league went full time. So then I went and
played for six years or seven years where I was
as a full time professional for me play them.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, so it was quite a natural progression to then
move into coaching, giving you background.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, it was because after retire finished playing footy over
in the UK professionally, and then I came back and
I was a school teacher in Brisbane. I did a
Master's of Education whilst I was teaching and then got
Uportune to work at the University of Southern quaysiand because
a lot of things are very transferable from teaching and
the coach.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah right, So growing up you talk about obviously you
had a lot of positive influences in your life through that.
Who was kind of your inspiration growing up? Was it
someone in your family or was it someone in the
football community.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Very much my dad. Mom and dad had me very young.
Dad is eight a m m. Seventeen. I'm a lot
older than my younger brother and younger sister. So dad
is very much my role model and some of them
looked up to as a young guy. And he actually
was involved with a regional footy club, rock Kings and Brothers,
and so a lot of my time as a young
boy was around young men and being involved in that
(04:52):
footy club and Salabi bull Boy on the weekends, and
a lot of my life in your Rocky and growing
ups revolved around being at the local footy club that
so I spoked where I developed a love for rugbyla
but all team sports, I think tank sports, they're so
good and your learnd so many life lessons in team sports,
and that was sort of my background.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
What about the other side of the coin, Because you're
quite open and vulnerable when you talk about how you
feel about things. Was that something that your dad granddad
would like or not? Really?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah? Not really? More an introvert than an extrovert and
my granddad's yeah. But I suppose the older I've got
and the more I've sort of learned and gone through
some really good times in my career and also some
really really tough times. I'm soon to reflect to a
lot on that, and I like that idea of working
on your own mental health and wellbeing and being vulnerable,
(05:38):
and you know, if there's some learnings that I can
share that can help others, even if it's just one
little thing that I've laid out of the journey, I
think it's really important to share some of those experiences.
And that's probably why I'm quite outspoken around. Yes, some
of the things in that space.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I definitely want to touch more on that, but I
want to sort of go to the world you're living
in now, right, So if you go to a changing
room that you've got to go and doing the breaks,
and you look at when you were a player back
in the day versus now, how you huddle with your team,
what's changed? How do you speak to people, how do
you motivate them from the way it happened when you
were the Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So I think when I played, it was very much
coach directed, So it was all the coach talking. He
was the sole person who would talk, and halftime as
an example, these days. You know, I'm very much a
collaborative type of leader. We have a couple of leaders
in our team. The first thing I do at half
time is get to those couple of leaders. What are
they seeing, what are they feeling out there in the game.
And then what we will do is we will meet
(06:29):
in small groups. And you know there's some research in
and around you know, smaller group and meetings you get
more participation from people, whether it's in business world or
in the sporting world. So we'll meet in smaller pods,
we call them for a couple of minutes, and then
we go to the bigger pod. And often in the
bigger pod or the full tame environment. I'm trying to
arror my messaging to two maybe three things absolutely taps
(06:50):
because a lot of research around retention, learning, etc. If
you try and chase five rabbits again none, So it's
two three the absolute tops because altimately I can't remember
too many in my halftime talks from when I was
a pliant right because of a sarmonch information the coach,
but all for ten twelve minutes straight, and so how
can you attain that? So two or three really key
(07:11):
punching messages is what I'm giving a players and enough
time because you've got to remember there on a fatigue, yeah,
which is not great for learning, allow them to have
a breath to really sad at half time.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, awesome, that's good tips there. So when you're in
that situation in the room and you guys are losing,
right and you're going into the last part, how do
you balance that healthy amount of giving them a whip right,
which I'm sure you have meaning in your time when
you're playing right, come on, guys, you've got to win.
It's really that balance between empathy and winning. How do
you do that? I think that's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, it is really fas fat it's really interesting, and
you're seeing probably given advance if you listen to the
commentators on TV that I think if you've got a
response from your team after halftime, as an example, if
you're losing and then they come out and they play
really well the first ten minutes, talk about Craig Bellamie
or one of the coaches, you know, no holding back
and screaming and shouting at a half time. It's not
like that at all. I think you've probably only got one,
(07:59):
maybe two situations where you're really abrupt with the players
in a season, and in young people these days, they
don't listen to that type of feedback. So it's very
much problem solving. And I think one of the things
that I think about deeply as a head coach is
how can I help the players problem solve and so
how we design our training week. For me, it's about
designing problems for the players to solve a training during
(08:20):
the week, because then that will transfer to game day
and it's the same at half time. Can I help
the players through some tactical solutions or can I help
the players through some problems solved? Because no player goes
you have their own Friday night and means to play poorly,
one or two things have happened. Either they haven't got
their week's preparation right from a mental point of view
more so than physical. Is there being a stracturage in
their week or interference in their week, Or they haven't
(08:42):
mentally tuned into how they need to physically show up
at the game. But no one goes there meaning to
play poorly, and so what they need at times is
a bit of an arm around the shoulder and go right.
This is how we going to open up this next
ten minutes and a half time, So really now and
focus with the messaging. Actually give them some tactical solutions
or some problem solving to help with that, and been
able to solve those problems themselves. And there's more than
(09:04):
one may are doing. And I think that's my way
doing it, and that's you know, having been in a
number of different change rooms as an assistant as a
head coach, I feel that's most effective for my weapons
as a coach.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, do you have to actively keep your cool? Like,
what do you like in terms of staying measured?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I'm pretty good. As I said, you're probably at one
in footy talk, it's one or too sprazy and then
you give the flass. I've heard that, and look, I'm
not sure how much they work anymore. I've got to
start very much. When I applayed that's what would happen.
You play poorly first half, you get a spread half time,
and sometimes you'd get a rebounding performance and other times
you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And then when you like into the game obviously if
you win, obviously you know it's a positive feeling. But
at a game that you lose and a big game, right,
So I remember I think it was was it last year?
You guys got to the semifinals. So when you come
out of that and you've lost, obviously there's huge amounts
of disappointment. What as a leader, what's your role in
that moment where you come off the field you've lost
a semifinal? Where are you at?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It's really interesting mine. You're certainly not raning and raving
there like, ultimately, you can't change a result. It's about
taking your breath. I talked specifically about that acade. We
didn't debreech the game after that Tigler loss. What we
did do was talk around what are the small ones
we've had over the season. We had a big improvement
in performance last year. So what we did was we
spoke about, you know, what are some of the things
(10:17):
we've had along the way, you know that's led us
to get to this opportunity. Did we handle the opportunity? Well,
now we did it, or we couldn't handle some chaos.
And the chaos in that particular game was what's two
players believe it or not after the first two tackles
of the game, which is unheard of. You know, so
we're down to fifteen after thirty five seconds of the game,
and there is a big positional switch in one of them.
So he was around, what are the little wins we've had,
(10:38):
what do we need to do when we get back
together over the pre season, and then just reflecting on
some of the things that we have had them in
due or succeeded in during the season.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I've got two boys and they play sport and they're
only young at the nine and eleven, and I noticed
that if they're down like two goals in the first half,
the resilience is just not present. Right, there's that emotional
that just down, the slumping around. Now, I'm obviously we're
talking about grown men on a football field. It's a
bit different. But I do think though that I've seen
those games, whether those huge margins quite early on, right,
(11:09):
and I can see the looks on some of these
players faces. Right, it's a long road to come back from.
So in terms of resilience, which we all know is
much more than just the grind, it's a mental game.
It's so many things. What are the strategies that you
use to help players bounce back from, like heavy gaps
early on in games and things like that or a
series of losses in a row.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
One of the first things we talk about is how
we break that pattern, How do we break that momentum.
So there's a couple of things tactically potentially that we
would message down to the players. Well that players have
practiced okay, So that's one thing. How do we break
that pattern to break the momentum that the other team's got.
Second to that is have a reset. So we do
a lot of work with our mental skills coach Andrew
may on hule resets, and so a huddle reset is
(11:49):
you know, when you have a players together, you can
clearly see whether that's been effective or not because the
huddles that aren't affected, you'll see players by themselves. And
what happens, generally speaking is players go quiet and things
go against them, right, they go into their own head
and there are only in a critic's talk. All that
in a talk is taking over, so they go with
you rather than connect to the group. So you have
(12:10):
to be delivered and practice it. A huddle reset is
something that we work really hard on. And I'll be
person out and no we're not, but we worked really
hard of the last two and a bit seasons to
have a huddle reset, to drop what's happened. We can't
change that. We're down eighteen L or twenty L or
you know, whatever it is. The momentum is against this.
But what we can do is break that pattern or
break them momentum. Okay, these are the one or two
things we need to do to try and break them
(12:31):
a menum, but we need a huddle. Resets have a
use of breath work or the use of something that
we practice all the time. And a trigger can be
something as simple as sprang border on your face. That's
your trigger to reset your mind. Or it could be
looking at a certain part of the ground. Look, some
of our players look at a particular sign if they've
made an error, because we don't play us to dwell
on the air. What we're trying to do is get
(12:52):
a competitive advantage by moving on quicker stuff after an
error or after try. It's concerned, it's hard, it's difficult,
it's easy. Everyone we're doing.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I think that's really interesting. Like the splashing of water
on your face for example. I mean, if you're in
a corporate environment, you have a very heated situation, you
could go to the bar through and quickly do that. Right,
it's the reset you're talking about when you say breath work.
What are you guys doing in that, because I think
it's a really interesting space to reset.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well, we start every week in season with we call
manly mindfulness and it's a ten minute start to our
week where literally long on the floor and so our
mintal skills coach or a head of performance, whoever's leading
it that particular week, we will do some visualization and
some breath work to start the week just to clear
whether it was a wheel on the weekend or a
loss on the weekend, just to start the week off,
(13:32):
and there'll be your script that's right out alth. They'll
be breathrough it and a lot of the breath workers
around the box breathing. So four seconds in hold for
four seconds, four seconds out half four seconds and repetitions
of that as an example. Yeah, So we start our
week with that mindfulness and it's almost look at a
ritual rout taying to get rid of what's just happened, good,
bad or indifferent and okay, now starting our new week
(13:53):
and a fresh start. And this is the first thing
we're going to do. So we do that at training
on the field, before running out at halftime or before
the game. You'll see a lot of teams now use breathing.
You'll see it on the TV, and often that's just
three deep breaths. We talk about fire and ice, right,
So adding some ice, for instance, is if your og arounds,
you know mentally, you know you're sort of in the
change your ogre around yeah wid yeah, wide, and you
(14:16):
don't want that, right, so you're going to add a
little bit of ice, and your add ice you might
be through some softer music or some breathing of the
box breathing. Right, if you come to the ground you're
not quite fight, have anything, you know, really struggling today
to get there, we might add some fire. So fire
would be a loud music we come up with certain ways,
but there's also some breath work that we do and
that we add fire. Right, So depending on what you need,
(14:36):
we've tried to really add some individual tools to each
player's memory skills toolbox, and what works for one might
not work for the other, but we give them the
opportunity to work out what works for each individual. So
I think that's a big change that when I played
twenty five years ago, one time I've.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Been heard of, would you been in a big slap
on the back and get out there. I actually think
this is very clever. Obviously sport makes so much sense,
but actually just think about a normal corporate office environment
you get in the morning. Are we doing a sense
check off? Do we need some fire ice here?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
You know?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I mean different tactics. But I don't see why that.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I do a lot with corporates and so on, and
these are the types of things that I'm talking to
them about, either individually or collectively. Lot, how can you
have a better week? And a better week is okay,
how I start my week or how I start I don't,
But also a better week looks a lot for people
who work in business how they finish their day. So
down regulation because if you take the last conversation, which
could have been a tough one or a negative one
(15:29):
at work, if you take that home to your family
or your partner or whatever it is, then that's not
going to set up a good evening, you know, for
you and your family. So how do you downrag at
the end of your day? As an example, what I'll
do to finish my day is I'll have a sauna
and cold water measure to finish my day. So I
got from head coach into being no longer you know
in the business world, can probably do better and learn
(15:51):
some lessons from professional Spirit.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Great great advice. So when you look at your leadership
career across coaching in particular, if you look at when
you started until now, what are you most proud of
in terms of what leadership skill You're like, you know,
what I really leaned into that? And which one do
you still feel like you've got work to do on.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well, it's a great question. I feel like one of
the things that I've been able to do well, if
we're just talking this current experience, is really create belonging
and connection in our group. I'm really proud of that.
But we've had to work really hard on it. So
we do things like manly mindfulness, but we do can
fire chats where our head of wellbeing will have five
really difficult questions for a staff member or a player,
(16:28):
and we do that twice a week, and so we
have two people up at each session, so four people
a week. Well, you get to be vulnerable, you get
to share some stories, challenges and highlights that you've had
to endure or that you've succeeded in and so on.
So I'm really proud of that, and I'm really proud
of that you're wrong. We've got here. It's okay to
be vulnerable and it's okay to get something wrong. And
(16:48):
we've tried to work really hard on building that belonging
in that connection over the last two and a big years.
That's something that we've had to work really hard on
because pride in myself coming there had been some challenges
for the group. So that's something i'm proud of. Something
that I've got wrong and made a mistake was my
time at the bront Goes. I tried to change too
much too quickly, Like I've got up there and they've
been doing certain things a certain way for probably the
(17:11):
best part of thirty years. And so I'm trying to
make some really really big changes. And I think if
I had a sat back observed a little bit more
as a leader going into the environment rather than God,
this is what we're doing with ABCDG, I might have
just made one or two slight changes then observed, and
then after the first twelve months I've been able to
if I had more experience at a particular time might
(17:32):
have been able to Okay, this is what we need
to add to the program. I feel like I've done
that a whole bit better here this time. Yeah, you know,
the first child months was a lot of observing how
do we build some psychological safety or belonging in connection
in the group? Less about exits and o's you know,
for me as a head coach. Now the assistant coaches
to do that. So that's some of the things I
feel like I've dune well now and some of the
lessons I've learned from the previous dram I was a
(17:54):
head coach.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's awesome and great self awareness, right, So I think
what you're saying with Bron because sometimes is slow down.
That's kind of the message to yourself as sometimes you
don't need to go and improve yourself by changing everything.
It's just smaller steps. So, yeah, that's awesome. I love
the work that you're doing with a group. That's amazing,
and I think culturally that must just have a huge impact.
I guess the challenge there is when you have movement
and the team and players leave and so forth, does
(18:16):
that kind of upset the apple card a little bit?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, Well, it's always difficult. And the one thing I
think about when we allow players to go to another club,
it's an opportunity for that player. Like, if they're not
getting the opportunity out club that they want or desire,
then I want them to go to another club, whether
it's here in Australia or over in England, to get
an opportunity. You know, I'll talk that explicitly to the guys.
You know, if we're you know, if we're allowing someone
(18:38):
to move on or we think someone's got a better opportunity,
I think that's great for them because we don't want
them sitting here not really wanting to be here, or
not feeling like they're going to get an opportunity here.
You know, we want them to be here because I
feel like it's a great environment, they're getting better individually,
and they're a chance of playing first grade. But if
someone's not a chance of playing first grade here, I'd
rather help them find through their manager or help the
(19:02):
player individually find another opportunity that's better for them. I
think there's a right way to wrongwade to do that.
I haven't always got that right I'm going to say,
but I feel like the more experience I've got. It's
not about letting someone go or releasing someone because they're
not good enough. It's you're not quite getting an opportunity here.
Is there a better opportunity for you elsewhere? Because if
there is, then we'll help you get that opportunity or
allow you to go to get that opportunity elsewhere. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Absolutely, I love that. So look, I have to talk
a bit more about that period of time at the
Broncos because obviously it probably is one of the more
challenging periods or the most challenging period of your career,
you know, from both obviously the challenges around the team
and coming in as coaching, but also that there's a
lot of stuff from a personal perspective and through the
media that you got put through. So how did you
navigate that time of your life? Because I look at
you now and where you're at and the incredible role
(19:46):
you're playing and your leadership style is unique and I
think really setting a standard. How did you bounce back
from such a difficult period?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
You know, I could live with the results, like we
actually made the finals year one, and no one really
talks about that that we had a really young group.
I think we gave eleven or twelve De boos. In
my first year there, we made the finals, but we
got bleed in horrible. I think it was like fifty
eight where it was the worst loss of experience. I
think it was particularly in the finals, you know, like
it should never be lost like that. So then we
come to low criticism, particular myself at the end of
(20:14):
that first year, and that bled over in my second
year there, which was COVID year, to the the sum
it's uncertain in the world and chaos in the world.
I reckon that led into our group. You know, I
think we didn't handle that period at all well because
we won first two games before COVID, and we come
back after COVID, and I think I coached another eleven games,
I mean only one one of those eleven games. So
then the spot I really hit on me, and so
(20:34):
I don't feel as though I had the mental skills
or the tools to cope with that period effectively. I
think I led a lot of that agitation through the
criticism in the media, and you know, let that impact
me a lot. Sort of couldn't get out of my
own head and mean a cretic took over and I
feel like I've done a lot of work over the
last couple of years on really understanding how I can
(20:56):
get rid of that in a critic or that negative
self talk, How I can reset, how I down ragged
at the end of the day, How I need to
spend a bit more time on myself to start and
have a better mourning myself, you know, through exercise or
through the use of sauna and cold water and so on.
So I didn't have the mental skills tools, you know.
I spoke to people with regards working on that side
of things, and I need a little bit of help
(21:18):
to try my reset after that, because it's pretty brutal.
The biggest thing that was the social media. There's a
lot of defamation and harassment, which was devastating. Really not
so much for me, but my family, close friends and
so on. Just see a lot of that rubbish was
probably unheard of at that time. I got to say
it was so yeah, out of a negative, horrible horror experience.
(21:39):
I feel like I've gained a lot from it, and
I don't think i'd be where I am in life
in my career having perspective of things I didn't go
through that. One of the positives was that Aaron Mullan
and myself Aaron had been horribly defamed on social media
itself and grab the racial awareness in and around this space,
and we actually were part of the conversation that led
to some legislation change and peering at the Senate, myself
(22:00):
and Erin being part of that legislation change was something
I feel like was a real positive and talking out
around social media bullying and harassment. It's just not on.
And I don't care whether I'm a head coach or principal,
or a school teacher or a nine or ten student,
it's just not on. And we've seen the damaging impact
on Chalm through the use of the social media bullying.
(22:21):
But yeah, as I said, that positive to take away
was that part of a conversation that brought it to
the forefront and there was some legislation showing. That's something
I'm proud of.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
No doubt. Obviously you've come right out on the other
side and you've had this positive impact. But at the time,
and you know, I always think this, and this is
because it was I interview people in pretty high profile
roles right to prove that they're just human. It is
a big part of that, right, So this would have hurt,
Like hell, I don't believe anyone wouldn't be affected by
the words that they read and things that people were saying.
So I guess this could have gone another way. So
how did you coaching that period? Was there a time
(22:51):
where you thought I'm never going to go back to football?
Was football like off the table?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah? Yeah, definitely was like a lock on itself away
for the first because I had cameras at some house
for the best part of fourteen days, and when I
was able to get out of quarantine, you know, I
had Meeta following a car like literally taking photos of
me and driving a car, which was I just got wow,
it's pretty crazy, Like, you know, I'm a footy coach, right,
so let's have some perspective on things. And I was
pretty down for a period of time there, and someone
(23:17):
who's very well known, Phiel Girl, and I spoken about
this previously. He gave me a call and said, stop
hiding behind the curtains and get out and about I
suppose I was taxing my identity to that of a
head coach and it was embarrassing because my ego got
in the right right because I'd had this wonderful journey
to becoming a head coach at Melbourne Storm and queens
Ane Stata of origin, assistant coach and assistant coach at
(23:38):
two clubs here in Sydney, and then head coach. It's
out where you know, we did a great job. I
was recognized individuals, so I had this really positive ride
and then you know, my ego was hurt and my
identity being a head coach. Wait, really, you're My identity
is not as a head coach, it's you know, what
am I like as a person first and foremost. I
struggled with that really deeply, and I didn't think that
I would have a coach again. And I did some
(23:58):
consulting with him Rugby. Externally, I did a little bit
of consulting from Newcastle Knights and that was not coaching,
that was just more helping mentor their coaches. And I
was doing some work in the corporate space in leadership
and doing it in a medium, and I think that
experience I've worked in the other side of the media
was really really helpful for me. And then Eddie Jones
probably went my appetite to coach again. He offered me
(24:20):
a full time role as seeing your assistant coach being
my Rugby are the biggest rugby union in world rugby,
and so that will probably breathe a bit of life
in thinking. Okay, well, I haven't lost my love totally
for coaching, but I didn't think that I'd ever get
the opportunity to be a head coaching and I got
to start. I just thought my reputation and my character
was a tax sad munch on social media and in
the media that well at a club game near me,
(24:40):
because it would just cause heaps of noise. And after
building a reputation over a twelve thirty and fourteen year period,
all of a sudden it was like in eighteen months
it was just thankfully my reputation. You know, some good
people in the background had me opportunities like Eddie Jones
and Live and Rugby, and then obviously the Penn family
here manly I worked here as an assistant so they
(25:01):
knew me well. They also got a good reference from
Carl Morrison, am of the Broncos, and so yeah, I've
got another opportunity and this is year three of being
a head coach again. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So with all that said, and what you went through
What did you learn about yourself?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
First of all, that my identity is not attached to
being footy coach. You know, a lot of the stuff
that you were tato anertato me was EGO talking, you know,
in the media, like you're going to get criticized if
you're in a profile position like an NFL coach or
an AFL coach, and you're going to get critique and
it's okay, as.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Then you should have just let some of the comments go.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And I took a lot of bit personally because I
thought there was some agendas or there was some personal
attacks on my character, and that's why I got fired
up a bit. But ultimately, at the end of the day,
it doesn't really really matter. I mean, it's not life
and death. So Ego got on the road. The identity
side of things got on the road. Certainly. Perspective. You know,
we're not surgeons. You know, we're not saving people's lives.
(25:52):
We're trying to create an environment where there's a group
of young men supported by staff who are hardworking and
going after conocourse. You know, you've got to continue to
try and strive to help the group about it individually
or collectively. And yeah, so there's a few things that
I learned. It was pretty challenging, but you didn't want
to talk about it for a long time. I'm going
to say, like I was very reluctant to show that
(26:13):
bern and bil Lee or.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Because I was thinking that I didn't actually prep you
to say, Hey, is it okay for asking you this?
Because I know you've talked a bit about it, right,
but why don't you say I don't want to go there?
And I get that from some people. I don't want
to go there and you don't do that way.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Is that I've got a lot of messages, and often
the messages mostly positive with regards to look, you know
I've been through bearing myself or knowing that other people
have gone through something pretty challenging. All this, you know,
it gives me a little bit of wide at the
end of the tunnel, sat to speak, if I can
help someone in whatever industry it is. If there's one
takeaway from this catch up in I feel like that's
(26:46):
a real positive thing. And I feel like where I
am in my life now because my identity is not
attached to being a head coach and old cloud, I
can talk about this. I can talk about my mistakes
I made at Bridsbane. I also can talk about and
rejoicing some of the joy I have had as a
coach over a long period of time. Right, and where
the results going away this year? And I don't going
to lie this year. Ultimately, I can only control what
(27:08):
I do, and I feel like I won't give the
best support to this group, for the right resources around
the group. Then we'll give ourselves a chance to be
in the conversation that we were last year of playing
fast for you again.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I mean, the smile that's on my face isn't like
just planted on there. It's just because everything is saying
I'm like, this is what it's about. Vulnerability breeds vulnerability, Right,
so you say something and share it someone who's lessening's like,
it's okay for me to feel that way too, And
it breeds connection. And I think that's what you. Being
so open and honest about your journey ups and the
downs has allowed people to feel safe with you and
comfortable to talk as well. So I love all of it.
(27:40):
I think it's brilliant. It does makee me a question, though,
trust being like a critical part of a good team,
how did those experiences. Trust was very broken for you
with some relationships, right people. How does that play out
for you now, Like is it harder for you to
trust people? Do you give trust upfront? Where does that sert?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, it's an interesting one because I feel like in
some ways shad or form some of the relationships when
I went back on from Queensland. So I was going
and I took this big rich deal to go home,
and ultimately a lot of people didn't want me back
at the Broncos, you know. So there was a lot
of relationships that I have not worried about keeping alive.
And there's plenty of relationships I have invested in from
(28:18):
that same experience that I've kept alive. And some of
that was down to some of the trust and so on.
I think it's important that one bad experience doesn't ruin
it for the next experience. So I give trust to
the playing group when I came here and the staff
some of this storytelling. I've done this over the last
two and a big years with the players, Like the
players know that I didn't handle that experience the Bronco
as well. The players know that I went there rather
(28:39):
than the decision made of my heart, my head around money,
you know, and what six year deal significant financial deal
it was. I've spoken about this because I learned a
lot and they might be a lesson in it for
some of the players, right, But I've spoken about this
in my owner circle, with best friends, with the family.
It's something that I've shared and as I said, if
someone can take one thing away from it, then that's
(29:00):
probably a positive. I'd suggess.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Well, if you're authentic with people and they know you
and where there's with you, then it's a great baseline
for a good relationship and things to flourish. You just
see something there though, that really sprung. You said that
you didn't make a decision when you went to the
broncos you might have used your brain around the money
versus your heart, right, And so I find this interesting.
So I just listened to garble Marte's event. You talked
about the three knowledge areas being the brain, the heart,
(29:22):
and the gut, and people often just use the brain
right as the logical thinking in footy as a coach,
how much does your gut, instinct and your heart come
into any decision making if at all?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
No, it does. I feel like when I've made good decisions.
That's band and gut feel or something that I've done
with my heart. I made a business decision, I suppose
the best way to call it, Bronco's for me a
five year deal with a six year in my favor
and double the money essentially that I was on it
else and double the length and contract. And so I
was loving South. We made the brilliant final. We were
a half a game of footy away from making the
(29:54):
Grand Final. First year've had coach, the players, they are
excellent to work with, such good guys. The support of
aids were excellent. But I made that decision. But ultimately
I wouldn't be in this situation for me now, and
I feel like this is the right situation for me
to be. And I've lived in this area since October
twenty fifteen, even when I've worked over seas or worked
in coins, and I've had a presence in this area
(30:15):
for almost a decade now. I had an experience here
for one year as an assistant coach, and so all
those learnings, I'll feel like, if this is my last
opportunity or last crack as our head coach, what a
place to the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Agreat and so Obviously you made the semi finals in
twenty twenty four and so I'm sure your ambitions are
set potentially a bit higher for that for this year
for the Seagulls. How does Anthony level up this year?
You talk about your team, what they do, but what
are you personally going to do to level up to
get to your goals this year?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, Well, it's been a bit of a thing for
us over the pre season. The next level it fills out.
We've got a bit more in its you know, how
we prepare physically, how we mentally tactically technically, there's areas
that we can really go after and really narrow our
focus to take us to that next level. And I
think it's the same for me as our head coach,
Like what did I learn last year and watched our
staff learned last year and around our preparation and how
(31:03):
we handle different parts of the seat, and I think
there's some really good learning for us there. So the
opportunity we've got it rather than challenges to go to
the next level. And I feel like, you know, we've
had a good preparation and we've got a really tough
start to the competition, but it's a great competition to
be part of it. We feel like we can make
some gains again this year.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Amazing Well, Anthony, it has been an absolute pleasure. I
genuinely mean this. I love things that you've said today,
the way you're approaching leadership. I love that you're doing
that in sport, in a male dominated sport. I love
that you're leaning into your vulnerability. I think there's so
many takeaways for people. And look, I know my friend
Sammy Thyda will kill me, but you know, I might
just have to switch teams because I'm rooting for you
(31:41):
this year to get to the top.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
So yeah, Sam might be happy that he's a good man.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
We won't be happy, but he'll understand this is great.
I'm really happy for you and great to see you
back in coaching role and I can't wait to see
this year roll out for you.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Thank you, Thank you, Thank Anthony.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Cheers
Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Happy people create happy businesses, true emotionally intelligent leadership. I've
picked up Vombit once on our about our fourth flight
and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
I can do it. Now we will be joined by
culture and leadership experts and some superstar CEOs who will
(00:28):
courageously tell us the truth behind their brave leadership journeys.
Today I am joined by Anthony Seabolt. Now love me
as sporting personality, so I'm really thrilled to have you
here today. Anthony, you are the current head of the
Manly Sea Eagles. I guess footy fans will know you,
but for people who aren't into footy, I guess your
background being that you've been in the innel for many
(00:49):
years now, including Melbourne Storm, South Sydney, Bristoe, Broncos, Queen's
and Instead of Origin team, and you also work for
England Rugby as an assistant coach as well. So welcome.
Nice to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, it's always good to chat at Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I do love speaking to people in sport. Because I
think the similarity into leadership and team are just great analogies.
But the other reason I really wanted to talk to
you is because you seem to have this passion for leadership.
It's been long standing, actually greater than I've seen in
a lot of other people. Where did that all start from?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I've always been curious, and I played just a professional
rugby league myself where I was a young guy, but
I did a teaching degree and so by the time
I was twenty one before rugby league went full time
professionally and I was actually teaching sixth class, and so
it's a really good influencers in the education industry and
good influencers around leadership principals and some deputy principles that
I had when I was a young guy. But also
(01:41):
when I finished playing over the English Super Leaguer came
back and I was a teacher and then a university
lecturer that I had a great senior lecturer there. So
I think a lot of sort of that leadership passion
came from the back of really good role modeling from others.
And then obviously I've sort of graduated from one level
to the neccsent coach over a long period of time,
I've sort of had experiences with some fantastic leaders in
(02:01):
the sporting industry, and then through my curiosity, I've actually
been able to spend time with some of the best
leaders in the business world as well, including one recently
with the Conwell Banksy Matt Kind and I've got a
good relationship with Matt, so we spent a favorite of
time together in the last of the twelve sixteen months.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, awesome. So being a teacher was what you wanted
to do when you're growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
He was interesting. I came out of Central Queens ad
and I was recruited by President Broncards as a seventeen
year old. So I just finished boarding school. A squad
shatter at boarding school, I got to say, like, you know,
as an all boys boarding school in regional Central Queens
and and I came down and signed for the Broncos.
Now in those days, this is the early nineties, so
I came down in ninety ninety two or seventeen. Rugby
league was in full time evan at the Broncos level.
(02:42):
We see on TV all those guys would have jobs
or studying or apprenticeships, and then we were trained of
an afternoon you'd see the guys on the TV on
the weekend. So came down and one of the key
staff there, the broncos Connel. He's no longer with us,
he's passed away, but he was a legendary figure in
education and Raugbid League in Queens and he really encouraged
me to do a teaching degree and he said, look,
wherever you go in the world, it'll always be works
(03:04):
the teacher and if it's not teaching that you do,
it all be a really good grounding. So he influenced
me then. But it's almost twenty one, believe it or not.
I was teaching year six.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
What was that like? Teaching year six?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It was really interesting because you know, as a twenty
one year old, like I think back on a twenty
one year old self, cannot believe or I had a
class of twenty five plus hits. Because we'd play away
in Sydney or wherever we would play and then on
five back Sunday night and you'd be in the classroom
on a Monday morning. It was different. It was different
for a twenty one year old because I was still
getting to know myself.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, I was on Kenticky too. Its then and you
were teaching in classrooms.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, yeah, you know so, yeah, I was quite a
livature and it was a good learning experience structure and
organization and you're influencing others, right, albeit I was only
twenty one. I had to be organized, well planned and
well fought out for those kids and it was wonderful experience.
And I did it for twelve months and then m'd
be league went full time. So then I went and
played for six years or seven years where I was
as a full time professional for me play them.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, so it was quite a natural progression to then
move into coaching, giving you background.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, it was because after retire finished playing footy over
in the UK professionally, and then I came back and
I was a school teacher in Brisbane. I did a
Master's of Education whilst I was teaching and then got
Uportune to work at the University of Southern quaysiand because
a lot of things are very transferable from teaching and
the coach.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah right, So growing up you talk about obviously you
had a lot of positive influences in your life through that.
Who was kind of your inspiration growing up? Was it
someone in your family or was it someone in the
football community.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Very much my dad. Mom and dad had me very young.
Dad is eight a m m. Seventeen. I'm a lot
older than my younger brother and younger sister. So dad
is very much my role model and some of them
looked up to as a young guy. And he actually
was involved with a regional footy club, rock Kings and Brothers,
and so a lot of my time as a young
boy was around young men and being involved in that
(04:52):
footy club and Salabi bull Boy on the weekends, and
a lot of my life in your Rocky and growing
ups revolved around being at the local footy club that
so I spoked where I developed a love for rugbyla
but all team sports, I think tank sports, they're so
good and your learnd so many life lessons in team sports,
and that was sort of my background.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
What about the other side of the coin, Because you're
quite open and vulnerable when you talk about how you
feel about things. Was that something that your dad granddad
would like or not? Really?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah? Not really? More an introvert than an extrovert and
my granddad's yeah. But I suppose the older I've got
and the more I've sort of learned and gone through
some really good times in my career and also some
really really tough times. I'm soon to reflect to a
lot on that, and I like that idea of working
on your own mental health and wellbeing and being vulnerable,
(05:38):
and you know, if there's some learnings that I can
share that can help others, even if it's just one
little thing that I've laid out of the journey, I
think it's really important to share some of those experiences.
And that's probably why I'm quite outspoken around. Yes, some
of the things in that space.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I definitely want to touch more on that, but I
want to sort of go to the world you're living
in now, right, So if you go to a changing
room that you've got to go and doing the breaks,
and you look at when you were a player back
in the day versus now, how you huddle with your team,
what's changed? How do you speak to people, how do
you motivate them from the way it happened when you
were the Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So I think when I played, it was very much
coach directed, So it was all the coach talking. He
was the sole person who would talk, and halftime as
an example, these days. You know, I'm very much a
collaborative type of leader. We have a couple of leaders
in our team. The first thing I do at half
time is get to those couple of leaders. What are
they seeing, what are they feeling out there in the game.
And then what we will do is we will meet
(06:29):
in small groups. And you know there's some research in
and around you know, smaller group and meetings you get
more participation from people, whether it's in business world or
in the sporting world. So we'll meet in smaller pods,
we call them for a couple of minutes, and then
we go to the bigger pod. And often in the
bigger pod or the full tame environment. I'm trying to
arror my messaging to two maybe three things absolutely taps
(06:50):
because a lot of research around retention, learning, etc. If
you try and chase five rabbits again none, So it's
two three the absolute tops because altimately I can't remember
too many in my halftime talks from when I was
a pliant right because of a sarmonch information the coach,
but all for ten twelve minutes straight, and so how
can you attain that? So two or three really key
(07:11):
punching messages is what I'm giving a players and enough
time because you've got to remember there on a fatigue, yeah,
which is not great for learning, allow them to have
a breath to really sad at half time.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, awesome, that's good tips there. So when you're in
that situation in the room and you guys are losing,
right and you're going into the last part, how do
you balance that healthy amount of giving them a whip right,
which I'm sure you have meaning in your time when
you're playing right, come on, guys, you've got to win.
It's really that balance between empathy and winning. How do
you do that? I think that's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, it is really fas fat it's really interesting, and
you're seeing probably given advance if you listen to the
commentators on TV that I think if you've got a
response from your team after halftime, as an example, if
you're losing and then they come out and they play
really well the first ten minutes, talk about Craig Bellamie
or one of the coaches, you know, no holding back
and screaming and shouting at a half time. It's not
like that at all. I think you've probably only got one,
(07:59):
maybe two situations where you're really abrupt with the players
in a season, and in young people these days, they
don't listen to that type of feedback. So it's very
much problem solving. And I think one of the things
that I think about deeply as a head coach is
how can I help the players problem solve and so
how we design our training week. For me, it's about
designing problems for the players to solve a training during
(08:20):
the week, because then that will transfer to game day
and it's the same at half time. Can I help
the players through some tactical solutions or can I help
the players through some problems solved? Because no player goes
you have their own Friday night and means to play poorly,
one or two things have happened. Either they haven't got
their week's preparation right from a mental point of view
more so than physical. Is there being a stracturage in
their week or interference in their week, Or they haven't
(08:42):
mentally tuned into how they need to physically show up
at the game. But no one goes there meaning to
play poorly, and so what they need at times is
a bit of an arm around the shoulder and go right.
This is how we going to open up this next
ten minutes and a half time, So really now and
focus with the messaging. Actually give them some tactical solutions
or some problem solving to help with that, and been
able to solve those problems themselves. And there's more than
(09:04):
one may are doing. And I think that's my way
doing it, and that's you know, having been in a
number of different change rooms as an assistant as a
head coach, I feel that's most effective for my weapons
as a coach.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, do you have to actively keep your cool? Like,
what do you like in terms of staying measured?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I'm pretty good. As I said, you're probably at one
in footy talk, it's one or too sprazy and then
you give the flass. I've heard that, and look, I'm
not sure how much they work anymore. I've got to
start very much. When I applayed that's what would happen.
You play poorly first half, you get a spread half time,
and sometimes you'd get a rebounding performance and other times
you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And then when you like into the game obviously if
you win, obviously you know it's a positive feeling. But
at a game that you lose and a big game, right,
So I remember I think it was was it last year?
You guys got to the semifinals. So when you come
out of that and you've lost, obviously there's huge amounts
of disappointment. What as a leader, what's your role in
that moment where you come off the field you've lost
a semifinal? Where are you at?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
It's really interesting mine. You're certainly not raning and raving
there like, ultimately, you can't change a result. It's about
taking your breath. I talked specifically about that acade. We
didn't debreech the game after that Tigler loss. What we
did do was talk around what are the small ones
we've had over the season. We had a big improvement
in performance last year. So what we did was we
spoke about, you know, what are some of the things
(10:17):
we've had along the way, you know that's led us
to get to this opportunity. Did we handle the opportunity? Well,
now we did it, or we couldn't handle some chaos.
And the chaos in that particular game was what's two
players believe it or not after the first two tackles
of the game, which is unheard of. You know, so
we're down to fifteen after thirty five seconds of the game,
and there is a big positional switch in one of them.
So he was around, what are the little wins we've had,
(10:38):
what do we need to do when we get back
together over the pre season, and then just reflecting on
some of the things that we have had them in
due or succeeded in during the season.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I've got two boys and they play sport and they're
only young at the nine and eleven, and I noticed
that if they're down like two goals in the first half,
the resilience is just not present. Right, there's that emotional
that just down, the slumping around. Now, I'm obviously we're
talking about grown men on a football field. It's a
bit different. But I do think though that I've seen
those games, whether those huge margins quite early on, right,
(11:09):
and I can see the looks on some of these
players faces. Right, it's a long road to come back from.
So in terms of resilience, which we all know is
much more than just the grind, it's a mental game.
It's so many things. What are the strategies that you
use to help players bounce back from, like heavy gaps
early on in games and things like that or a
series of losses in a row.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
One of the first things we talk about is how
we break that pattern, How do we break that momentum.
So there's a couple of things tactically potentially that we
would message down to the players. Well that players have
practiced okay, So that's one thing. How do we break
that pattern to break the momentum that the other team's got.
Second to that is have a reset. So we do
a lot of work with our mental skills coach Andrew
may on hule resets, and so a huddle reset is
(11:49):
you know, when you have a players together, you can
clearly see whether that's been effective or not because the
huddles that aren't affected, you'll see players by themselves. And
what happens, generally speaking is players go quiet and things
go against them, right, they go into their own head
and there are only in a critic's talk. All that
in a talk is taking over, so they go with
you rather than connect to the group. So you have
(12:10):
to be delivered and practice it. A huddle reset is
something that we work really hard on. And I'll be
person out and no we're not, but we worked really
hard of the last two and a bit seasons to
have a huddle reset, to drop what's happened. We can't
change that. We're down eighteen L or twenty L or
you know, whatever it is. The momentum is against this.
But what we can do is break that pattern or
break them momentum. Okay, these are the one or two
things we need to do to try and break them
(12:31):
a menum, but we need a huddle. Resets have a
use of breath work or the use of something that
we practice all the time. And a trigger can be
something as simple as sprang border on your face. That's
your trigger to reset your mind. Or it could be
looking at a certain part of the ground. Look, some
of our players look at a particular sign if they've
made an error, because we don't play us to dwell
on the air. What we're trying to do is get
(12:52):
a competitive advantage by moving on quicker stuff after an
error or after try. It's concerned, it's hard, it's difficult,
it's easy. Everyone we're doing.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I think that's really interesting. Like the splashing of water
on your face for example. I mean, if you're in
a corporate environment, you have a very heated situation, you
could go to the bar through and quickly do that. Right,
it's the reset you're talking about when you say breath work.
What are you guys doing in that, because I think
it's a really interesting space to reset.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well, we start every week in season with we call
manly mindfulness and it's a ten minute start to our
week where literally long on the floor and so our
mintal skills coach or a head of performance, whoever's leading
it that particular week, we will do some visualization and
some breath work to start the week just to clear
whether it was a wheel on the weekend or a
loss on the weekend, just to start the week off,
(13:32):
and there'll be your script that's right out alth. They'll
be breathrough it and a lot of the breath workers
around the box breathing. So four seconds in hold for
four seconds, four seconds out half four seconds and repetitions
of that as an example. Yeah, So we start our
week with that mindfulness and it's almost look at a
ritual rout taying to get rid of what's just happened, good,
bad or indifferent and okay, now starting our new week
(13:53):
and a fresh start. And this is the first thing
we're going to do. So we do that at training
on the field, before running out at halftime or before
the game. You'll see a lot of teams now use breathing.
You'll see it on the TV, and often that's just
three deep breaths. We talk about fire and ice, right,
So adding some ice, for instance, is if your og arounds,
you know mentally, you know you're sort of in the
change your ogre around yeah wid yeah, wide, and you
(14:16):
don't want that, right, so you're going to add a
little bit of ice, and your add ice you might
be through some softer music or some breathing of the
box breathing. Right, if you come to the ground you're
not quite fight, have anything, you know, really struggling today
to get there, we might add some fire. So fire
would be a loud music we come up with certain ways,
but there's also some breath work that we do and
that we add fire. Right, So depending on what you need,
(14:36):
we've tried to really add some individual tools to each
player's memory skills toolbox, and what works for one might
not work for the other, but we give them the
opportunity to work out what works for each individual. So
I think that's a big change that when I played
twenty five years ago, one time I've.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Been heard of, would you been in a big slap
on the back and get out there. I actually think
this is very clever. Obviously sport makes so much sense,
but actually just think about a normal corporate office environment
you get in the morning. Are we doing a sense
check off? Do we need some fire ice here?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
You know?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I mean different tactics. But I don't see why that.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I do a lot with corporates and so on, and
these are the types of things that I'm talking to
them about, either individually or collectively. Lot, how can you
have a better week? And a better week is okay,
how I start my week or how I start I don't,
But also a better week looks a lot for people
who work in business how they finish their day. So
down regulation because if you take the last conversation, which
could have been a tough one or a negative one
(15:29):
at work, if you take that home to your family
or your partner or whatever it is, then that's not
going to set up a good evening, you know, for
you and your family. So how do you downrag at
the end of your day? As an example, what I'll
do to finish my day is I'll have a sauna
and cold water measure to finish my day. So I
got from head coach into being no longer you know
in the business world, can probably do better and learn
(15:51):
some lessons from professional Spirit.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Great great advice. So when you look at your leadership
career across coaching in particular, if you look at when
you started until now, what are you most proud of
in terms of what leadership skill You're like, you know,
what I really leaned into that? And which one do
you still feel like you've got work to do on.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well, it's a great question. I feel like one of
the things that I've been able to do well, if
we're just talking this current experience, is really create belonging
and connection in our group. I'm really proud of that.
But we've had to work really hard on it. So
we do things like manly mindfulness, but we do can
fire chats where our head of wellbeing will have five
really difficult questions for a staff member or a player,
(16:28):
and we do that twice a week, and so we
have two people up at each session, so four people
a week. Well, you get to be vulnerable, you get
to share some stories, challenges and highlights that you've had
to endure or that you've succeeded in and so on.
So I'm really proud of that, and I'm really proud
of that you're wrong. We've got here. It's okay to
be vulnerable and it's okay to get something wrong. And
(16:48):
we've tried to work really hard on building that belonging
in that connection over the last two and a big years.
That's something that we've had to work really hard on
because pride in myself coming there had been some challenges
for the group. So that's something i'm proud of. Something
that I've got wrong and made a mistake was my
time at the bront Goes. I tried to change too
much too quickly, Like I've got up there and they've
been doing certain things a certain way for probably the
(17:11):
best part of thirty years. And so I'm trying to
make some really really big changes. And I think if
I had a sat back observed a little bit more
as a leader going into the environment rather than God,
this is what we're doing with ABCDG, I might have
just made one or two slight changes then observed, and
then after the first twelve months I've been able to
if I had more experience at a particular time might
(17:32):
have been able to Okay, this is what we need
to add to the program. I feel like I've done
that a whole bit better here this time. Yeah, you know,
the first child months was a lot of observing how
do we build some psychological safety or belonging in connection
in the group? Less about exits and o's you know,
for me as a head coach. Now the assistant coaches
to do that. So that's some of the things I
feel like I've dune well now and some of the
lessons I've learned from the previous dram I was a
(17:54):
head coach.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's awesome and great self awareness, right, So I think
what you're saying with Bron because sometimes is slow down.
That's kind of the message to yourself as sometimes you
don't need to go and improve yourself by changing everything.
It's just smaller steps. So, yeah, that's awesome. I love
the work that you're doing with a group. That's amazing,
and I think culturally that must just have a huge impact.
I guess the challenge there is when you have movement
and the team and players leave and so forth, does
(18:16):
that kind of upset the apple card a little bit?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, Well, it's always difficult. And the one thing I
think about when we allow players to go to another club,
it's an opportunity for that player. Like, if they're not
getting the opportunity out club that they want or desire,
then I want them to go to another club, whether
it's here in Australia or over in England, to get
an opportunity. You know, I'll talk that explicitly to the guys.
You know, if we're you know, if we're allowing someone
(18:38):
to move on or we think someone's got a better opportunity,
I think that's great for them because we don't want
them sitting here not really wanting to be here, or
not feeling like they're going to get an opportunity here.
You know, we want them to be here because I
feel like it's a great environment, they're getting better individually,
and they're a chance of playing first grade. But if
someone's not a chance of playing first grade here, I'd
rather help them find through their manager or help the
(19:02):
player individually find another opportunity that's better for them. I
think there's a right way to wrongwade to do that.
I haven't always got that right I'm going to say,
but I feel like the more experience I've got. It's
not about letting someone go or releasing someone because they're
not good enough. It's you're not quite getting an opportunity here.
Is there a better opportunity for you elsewhere? Because if
there is, then we'll help you get that opportunity or
allow you to go to get that opportunity elsewhere. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Absolutely, I love that. So look, I have to talk
a bit more about that period of time at the
Broncos because obviously it probably is one of the more
challenging periods or the most challenging period of your career,
you know, from both obviously the challenges around the team
and coming in as coaching, but also that there's a
lot of stuff from a personal perspective and through the
media that you got put through. So how did you
navigate that time of your life? Because I look at
you now and where you're at and the incredible role
(19:46):
you're playing and your leadership style is unique and I
think really setting a standard. How did you bounce back
from such a difficult period?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
You know, I could live with the results, like we
actually made the finals year one, and no one really
talks about that that we had a really young group.
I think we gave eleven or twelve De boos. In
my first year there, we made the finals, but we
got bleed in horrible. I think it was like fifty
eight where it was the worst loss of experience. I
think it was particularly in the finals, you know, like
it should never be lost like that. So then we
come to low criticism, particular myself at the end of
(20:14):
that first year, and that bled over in my second
year there, which was COVID year, to the the sum
it's uncertain in the world and chaos in the world.
I reckon that led into our group. You know, I
think we didn't handle that period at all well because
we won first two games before COVID, and we come
back after COVID, and I think I coached another eleven games,
I mean only one one of those eleven games. So
then the spot I really hit on me, and so
(20:34):
I don't feel as though I had the mental skills
or the tools to cope with that period effectively. I
think I led a lot of that agitation through the
criticism in the media, and you know, let that impact
me a lot. Sort of couldn't get out of my
own head and mean a cretic took over and I
feel like I've done a lot of work over the
last couple of years on really understanding how I can
(20:56):
get rid of that in a critic or that negative
self talk, How I can reset, how I down ragged
at the end of the day, How I need to
spend a bit more time on myself to start and
have a better mourning myself, you know, through exercise or
through the use of sauna and cold water and so on.
So I didn't have the mental skills tools, you know.
I spoke to people with regards working on that side
of things, and I need a little bit of help
(21:18):
to try my reset after that, because it's pretty brutal.
The biggest thing that was the social media. There's a
lot of defamation and harassment, which was devastating. Really not
so much for me, but my family, close friends and
so on. Just see a lot of that rubbish was
probably unheard of at that time. I got to say
it was so yeah, out of a negative, horrible horror experience.
(21:39):
I feel like I've gained a lot from it, and
I don't think i'd be where I am in life
in my career having perspective of things I didn't go
through that. One of the positives was that Aaron Mullan
and myself Aaron had been horribly defamed on social media
itself and grab the racial awareness in and around this space,
and we actually were part of the conversation that led
to some legislation change and peering at the Senate, myself
(22:00):
and Erin being part of that legislation change was something
I feel like was a real positive and talking out
around social media bullying and harassment. It's just not on.
And I don't care whether I'm a head coach or principal,
or a school teacher or a nine or ten student,
it's just not on. And we've seen the damaging impact
on Chalm through the use of the social media bullying.
(22:21):
But yeah, as I said, that positive to take away
was that part of a conversation that brought it to
the forefront and there was some legislation showing. That's something
I'm proud of.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
No doubt. Obviously you've come right out on the other
side and you've had this positive impact. But at the time,
and you know, I always think this, and this is
because it was I interview people in pretty high profile
roles right to prove that they're just human. It is
a big part of that, right, So this would have hurt,
Like hell, I don't believe anyone wouldn't be affected by
the words that they read and things that people were saying.
So I guess this could have gone another way. So
how did you coaching that period? Was there a time
(22:51):
where you thought I'm never going to go back to football?
Was football like off the table?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah? Yeah, definitely was like a lock on itself away
for the first because I had cameras at some house
for the best part of fourteen days, and when I
was able to get out of quarantine, you know, I
had Meeta following a car like literally taking photos of
me and driving a car, which was I just got wow,
it's pretty crazy, Like, you know, I'm a footy coach, right,
so let's have some perspective on things. And I was
pretty down for a period of time there, and someone
(23:17):
who's very well known, Phiel Girl, and I spoken about
this previously. He gave me a call and said, stop
hiding behind the curtains and get out and about I
suppose I was taxing my identity to that of a
head coach and it was embarrassing because my ego got
in the right right because I'd had this wonderful journey
to becoming a head coach at Melbourne Storm and queens
Ane Stata of origin, assistant coach and assistant coach at
(23:38):
two clubs here in Sydney, and then head coach. It's
out where you know, we did a great job. I
was recognized individuals, so I had this really positive ride
and then you know, my ego was hurt and my
identity being a head coach. Wait, really, you're My identity
is not as a head coach, it's you know, what
am I like as a person first and foremost. I
struggled with that really deeply, and I didn't think that
I would have a coach again. And I did some
(23:58):
consulting with him Rugby. Externally, I did a little bit
of consulting from Newcastle Knights and that was not coaching,
that was just more helping mentor their coaches. And I
was doing some work in the corporate space in leadership
and doing it in a medium, and I think that
experience I've worked in the other side of the media
was really really helpful for me. And then Eddie Jones
probably went my appetite to coach again. He offered me
(24:20):
a full time role as seeing your assistant coach being
my Rugby are the biggest rugby union in world rugby,
and so that will probably breathe a bit of life
in thinking. Okay, well, I haven't lost my love totally
for coaching, but I didn't think that I'd ever get
the opportunity to be a head coaching and I got
to start. I just thought my reputation and my character
was a tax sad munch on social media and in
the media that well at a club game near me,
(24:40):
because it would just cause heaps of noise. And after
building a reputation over a twelve thirty and fourteen year period,
all of a sudden it was like in eighteen months
it was just thankfully my reputation. You know, some good
people in the background had me opportunities like Eddie Jones
and Live and Rugby, and then obviously the Penn family
here manly I worked here as an assistant so they
(25:01):
knew me well. They also got a good reference from
Carl Morrison, am of the Broncos, and so yeah, I've
got another opportunity and this is year three of being
a head coach again. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So with all that said, and what you went through
What did you learn about yourself?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
First of all, that my identity is not attached to
being footy coach. You know, a lot of the stuff
that you were tato anertato me was EGO talking, you know,
in the media, like you're going to get criticized if
you're in a profile position like an NFL coach or
an AFL coach, and you're going to get critique and
it's okay, as.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Then you should have just let some of the comments go.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And I took a lot of bit personally because I
thought there was some agendas or there was some personal
attacks on my character, and that's why I got fired
up a bit. But ultimately, at the end of the day,
it doesn't really really matter. I mean, it's not life
and death. So Ego got on the road. The identity
side of things got on the road. Certainly. Perspective. You know,
we're not surgeons. You know, we're not saving people's lives.
(25:52):
We're trying to create an environment where there's a group
of young men supported by staff who are hardworking and
going after conocourse. You know, you've got to continue to
try and strive to help the group about it individually
or collectively. And yeah, so there's a few things that
I learned. It was pretty challenging, but you didn't want
to talk about it for a long time. I'm going
to say, like I was very reluctant to show that
(26:13):
bern and bil Lee or.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Because I was thinking that I didn't actually prep you
to say, Hey, is it okay for asking you this?
Because I know you've talked a bit about it, right,
but why don't you say I don't want to go there?
And I get that from some people. I don't want
to go there and you don't do that way.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Is that I've got a lot of messages, and often
the messages mostly positive with regards to look, you know
I've been through bearing myself or knowing that other people
have gone through something pretty challenging. All this, you know,
it gives me a little bit of wide at the
end of the tunnel, sat to speak, if I can
help someone in whatever industry it is. If there's one
takeaway from this catch up in I feel like that's
(26:46):
a real positive thing. And I feel like where I
am in my life now because my identity is not
attached to being a head coach and old cloud, I
can talk about this. I can talk about my mistakes
I made at Bridsbane. I also can talk about and
rejoicing some of the joy I have had as a
coach over a long period of time. Right, and where
the results going away this year? And I don't going
to lie this year. Ultimately, I can only control what
(27:08):
I do, and I feel like I won't give the
best support to this group, for the right resources around
the group. Then we'll give ourselves a chance to be
in the conversation that we were last year of playing
fast for you again.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I mean, the smile that's on my face isn't like
just planted on there. It's just because everything is saying
I'm like, this is what it's about. Vulnerability breeds vulnerability, Right,
so you say something and share it someone who's lessening's like,
it's okay for me to feel that way too, And
it breeds connection. And I think that's what you. Being
so open and honest about your journey ups and the
downs has allowed people to feel safe with you and
comfortable to talk as well. So I love all of it.
(27:40):
I think it's brilliant. It does makee me a question, though,
trust being like a critical part of a good team,
how did those experiences. Trust was very broken for you
with some relationships, right people. How does that play out
for you now, Like is it harder for you to
trust people? Do you give trust upfront? Where does that sert?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, it's an interesting one because I feel like in
some ways shad or form some of the relationships when
I went back on from Queensland. So I was going
and I took this big rich deal to go home,
and ultimately a lot of people didn't want me back
at the Broncos, you know. So there was a lot
of relationships that I have not worried about keeping alive.
And there's plenty of relationships I have invested in from
(28:18):
that same experience that I've kept alive. And some of
that was down to some of the trust and so on.
I think it's important that one bad experience doesn't ruin
it for the next experience. So I give trust to
the playing group when I came here and the staff
some of this storytelling. I've done this over the last
two and a big years with the players, Like the
players know that I didn't handle that experience the Bronco
as well. The players know that I went there rather
(28:39):
than the decision made of my heart, my head around money,
you know, and what six year deal significant financial deal
it was. I've spoken about this because I learned a
lot and they might be a lesson in it for
some of the players, right, But I've spoken about this
in my owner circle, with best friends, with the family.
It's something that I've shared and as I said, if
someone can take one thing away from it, then that's
(29:00):
probably a positive. I'd suggess.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Well, if you're authentic with people and they know you
and where there's with you, then it's a great baseline
for a good relationship and things to flourish. You just
see something there though, that really sprung. You said that
you didn't make a decision when you went to the
broncos you might have used your brain around the money
versus your heart, right, And so I find this interesting.
So I just listened to garble Marte's event. You talked
about the three knowledge areas being the brain, the heart,
(29:22):
and the gut, and people often just use the brain
right as the logical thinking in footy as a coach,
how much does your gut, instinct and your heart come
into any decision making if at all?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
No, it does. I feel like when I've made good decisions.
That's band and gut feel or something that I've done
with my heart. I made a business decision, I suppose
the best way to call it, Bronco's for me a
five year deal with a six year in my favor
and double the money essentially that I was on it
else and double the length and contract. And so I
was loving South. We made the brilliant final. We were
a half a game of footy away from making the
(29:54):
Grand Final. First year've had coach, the players, they are
excellent to work with, such good guys. The support of
aids were excellent. But I made that decision. But ultimately
I wouldn't be in this situation for me now, and
I feel like this is the right situation for me
to be. And I've lived in this area since October
twenty fifteen, even when I've worked over seas or worked
in coins, and I've had a presence in this area
(30:15):
for almost a decade now. I had an experience here
for one year as an assistant coach, and so all
those learnings, I'll feel like, if this is my last
opportunity or last crack as our head coach, what a
place to the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Agreat and so Obviously you made the semi finals in
twenty twenty four and so I'm sure your ambitions are
set potentially a bit higher for that for this year
for the Seagulls. How does Anthony level up this year?
You talk about your team, what they do, but what
are you personally going to do to level up to
get to your goals this year?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, Well, it's been a bit of a thing for
us over the pre season. The next level it fills out.
We've got a bit more in its you know, how
we prepare physically, how we mentally tactically technically, there's areas
that we can really go after and really narrow our
focus to take us to that next level. And I
think it's the same for me as our head coach,
Like what did I learn last year and watched our
staff learned last year and around our preparation and how
(31:03):
we handle different parts of the seat, and I think
there's some really good learning for us there. So the
opportunity we've got it rather than challenges to go to
the next level. And I feel like, you know, we've
had a good preparation and we've got a really tough
start to the competition, but it's a great competition to
be part of it. We feel like we can make
some gains again this year.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Amazing Well, Anthony, it has been an absolute pleasure. I
genuinely mean this. I love things that you've said today,
the way you're approaching leadership. I love that you're doing
that in sport, in a male dominated sport. I love
that you're leaning into your vulnerability. I think there's so
many takeaways for people. And look, I know my friend
Sammy Thyda will kill me, but you know, I might
just have to switch teams because I'm rooting for you
(31:41):
this year to get to the top.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
So yeah, Sam might be happy that he's a good man.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
We won't be happy, but he'll understand this is great.
I'm really happy for you and great to see you
back in coaching role and I can't wait to see
this year roll out for you.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Thank you, Thank you, Thank Anthony.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Cheers
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