February 24, 2025 • 32 mins
It’s not often you meet someone who decides in their early 20’s that I’m going to be the Chief Editor of one of Australia’s biggest newspapers. But here he is. Chris Jones, a talented journalist and now the masthead of one of Australia’s leading newspapers. He bravely opens up about the parts of his leadership he knows he still struggles with and shares his unwavering passion for using his talent and medium to influence for good.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appod Shay Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Happy people create happy businesses.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
True emotionally intelligent leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I picked up vomit once on our about our four
flight and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
I can do it now.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We will be joined by culture and leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us
the truth behind their brave leadership journeys.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I am delighted to have with me in studio. News
Corp Australia's.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Queensland editor and the editor of the Career Mail, mister
Chris Jones. Chris has had an impressive twenty one year
career with News Corps, spanning his early days as a
reporter to head of news and now finding it the
helm of one of the leading newspapers in the country.
He also co hosts Towards the Game's podcast with Lutzi,
where they explore the journey of Brisbane's transformation for the
(01:02):
twenty thirty two Olympic Games.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Welcome Chris.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm so happy to be here. Emma.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
I think what you're doing is really impressive. You're giving
a permission to be vulnerable, particularly for male leaders I
think find it quite difficult.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
And you know, it's funny like over the last few years,
particularly with running my business, you know, I have the
pleasure of often working with a lot of executives and
CEOs in their field, and people will say to me
afterwards like we're they scary, Like it's like they're.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Just human beings.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, That's kind of what this is about, is that
success doesn't mean that you don't have all of the
human emotions, and people can see that in a different way,
and it's sort of sometimes I think will put people
off moving to the type or pushing themselves the top
or whether they can even get there because they're not
completely stoic and you know, they don't have these things.
So it is kind of allowing people to see that
it's both sides of the coins you.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
I appreciate that. How's a year started for you?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Good? Busy. It's always busy, but always exciting as well.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
You know, we're coming up to a federal election, you know,
off the back of a state election with the change
of government and a lot of what we do as
politics yeah, it's courts and crime and and so on.
But I think what makes newspapering in the digital sense
these days as well as print, but newspapering different to
other media is the time that we spent thinking about
politics and so on, and the role that we play
(02:19):
in terms of meaning. That's probably the central point of
why journalism calls.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
People, is the ability to use.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
The platform to make a difference. You tend to do
that through politicians and the decisions that they make, and
leading them to that is really meaningful. So I always
start the year feeling relaxed after a big break, but
also excited about what's to come. You have a big break,
always do four weeks. I always do not much more
other than just sitting on my ass as much as possible,
(02:46):
Try not to travel too far, yep, and just do
a proper reset so you can come back fresh.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
That's good, good ritual.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Now I'm guessing that journalists just have an amazing way
of ensuring that there's little information about them out there.
So congratulations, you've done a good job with that. The
least amount of things I could recently human being with you,
I couldn't even forget what we were born are you
born in Brisbane?
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Well, I think part of that is I don't think
we're very good at telling our own story, you.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Know, So it's because you know what you're like.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
On the other end of the picture, I think.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
It's because you spend your career telling other people's stories
and leaning into them. It's kind of yeah, you find
it quite confronting. So I was born in Melbourne but
grew up in Brisbone. One of the interesting things when
I think about my career and leadership journey and someone
is all I ever wanted to do was be the
editor of the Korean Mail.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
No you didn't, Are you serious?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:35):
Absolutely, So it's great to have achieved it. And I've
been in this gig for five years. And it's kind
of interesting as well, where you reach a point at
which you've hit your goal and you can do it
for a period of time. But I've got twenty or
thirty years still in the workplace, and I guarantee you
I won't be able to the corean male for twenty
or thirty years from now, So you know, it's a
bit of a crossroads moment as well.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I bet were you delivering newspapers as a young boy?
What was it about.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
I just love journalism, and I do love newspapers as
much as you know. We're a digital subscription business now
that happens to do a newspaper, and the newspaper's still
really important and we still print a lot of them
every night light, but you know, the future is the
digital subscription business. But I just love There's something beautiful
about a newspaper and I've always been in love with it,
the romance of it. Like I said, I did put
out that little one in the street for a few
(04:21):
years in the end of primary school and loved that
and just always had a real affection for them. And
what it's growing into is a love of journalism and
as I say, the meaning behind great journalism and the
impact that you can have in telling, you know, the
stories of everyday heroes or sporting heroes, or indeed driving
(04:43):
significant change.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I mean, obviously this there's a lot about the passion
you have for this. The purpose of being in this
field is to make change for good. It sounds like
wherever you possibly.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Can, I think journalism absolutely is a calling. Yeah, there
was a period there where every English teacher told their
kids who were good at English to choose journalism. Some
of the best journalists in the world world can't string
a sentence together.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, but they know what.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
A great story is, that you have the right motivation,
and they know how to put those things together tocue
great outcomes. And the way you motivate a team of
journalists is not to give them rewards or clap their
paid cynics. So the traditional workplace Friday afternoon stuff makes
them feel awkward.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
The way that you motivate.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
A team of journalists is really just back their stories,
back in what they want to tell and the change
that they want to make. I'd be very surprised if
there's many successful journalists who wouldn't just consider it a
total calling rather than a job that you turn up
to and do.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
For eight hours a day.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So then on the flip side, given this is to
purpose driven thing for yourself and for most journalists, probably
when you're in the reporting space, and let's say in
particular talking in politics right where sometimes sometimes a lot
of what said is to be popular, is it conflicting
for you? Then when you see people not using that
platform for good.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
I think one of the the challenges that the industry
has had over the past fifteen twenty years is the
rise of a celebrity journalist. I think journalists are best
when they're not the story, but absolutely in the middle
of it, so that they can provide the behind the scenes,
(06:26):
genuinely informed analysis and commentary. Analysis is better than commentary
if you're a journalist to then allow the readers into
those I suppose sacred spaces that readers would never actually
get access to it. The great thing about covering politics
is that you do get access to those things. The
greatest other than obviously being the end of the Curry Mail,
(06:48):
the greatest time in my life was when I was
in the Press Gallery in Canberra in two thousand and three,
in two thousand and four, and just the way you
just witness history in those halls, you're part of significant moments.
Bringing the readers into that is actually part of the
job of a great journalist, but never actually turning the
camera onto yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Does it worry that if you ever changed career pass
that you'd ever find the same adorenaline that you get
from this.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I'm not sure I could ever not be a journalist.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Going back to when you first started your career, I
did really comment that you said, I think you were
a reporter for the Weekly Outdoors.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I think that's what your first role was.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
Look, I won the lottery early in life.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I was at UNI. I was second year UNI.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
I met the great Dennis Watt, now the chair of
the Goldcast Titans, one of the greatest journalists ever. He
was chief of staff I think at the time. And
I met him in a journalism student Association function and
he said, with all this stuff you've done, I've done
a bit of boating and fishing sort of magazine worked
just as a part time gig to get me through UNI.
He said, you really should be putting your name up
(07:51):
to Chris Mitchell, who was the edder at the time.
So I sent off package Popoli. I sent it off
and I didn't hear anything for a couple of months.
Now it's a phone call from Chris Mitchell's the AA
saying come in on this date next Monday or whatever.
So I went and bought a tie and did all
that sort of stuff that you do when you're young
and going for your first job interview. I sat down
and Chris basically said I love what you've done.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Here.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
We're starting a weekly week end well outdoors. It was
called outdoors supplement. Yeah, on a Friday, I'd love you
to come in and be the reporter for that. So
the first maybe twelve months of my career was literally
jumping out of planes and riding around in boats and
calling it journalism. It was the weecked and I did
my best to hide myself over in the corner. But
(08:35):
it only lasted a year or so before you know,
the rest of the room figured out all the chief
of staff who wasn't Don figured out that I was there,
and obviously I had a bit of talent, and they
brought me into the news world and off we went.
That was a great year.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So I mean, I'm getting this sense that you're the
kind of person when you sit your mind to something,
you just go for it. Is that true? Or does
a lot of fear and doubt come into play? Is
that sort of a front or in the background, and
you thinking can I do this? Like I'm not even
finished my degree here, I'm just going to leap in
and do this.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I think self awareness is so important in leadership. So
I've spent a lot of time doing it.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
My natural work persona, which is not inauthentic to home,
you know, is a classic Myers Briggsy and TJ.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You know, it's the full.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Napoleon Steve Jobs commander type. Okay, if you're more of
a fan of the HBDI, I'm everything in equal measure
other than the red quadrant, the WHO stuff. So I'm
all about the what, how, why rather than the Who. Naturally,
so I do struggle with the empathy stuff, and I'd
love to come back to talk about that because I
think I've got some stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
To share there.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
But beyond all of that sort of personality stuff which
is authentic, is also this sense in my whole life
a natural shyness or something maybe a worry about what
people are thinking about me. And obviously part of that
drive is also look at me, look at me. So
I think there's been times where that's come across as
cockiness when it's not me being cocky. It's just me,
(09:59):
as you say, being driven and pushing. And I think
as you grow, being deliberate and learning how to when
to employ the confidence thing, when to actually lean into
that and when to come back and be more authentic
and vulnerable is a constant challenge. But something that's really
critical because cockiness can absolutely get in the way of
(10:21):
all sorts of things, including being promoted in a modern workplace.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Yeah right, interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So in those early days, then, what was your first
moment where you felt really exposed, Because you mean, you
probably would have had a bit of confidence in you,
you know, this young reporter jumping at the planes and everything.
When did something goes sort of a bit pear shape
and you suddenly went, oh, god.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
That you never ever ever forget your first big mistake
in journalism. Okay, and look, it wasn't a massively big
mistake in the scheme of things, but I felt like
it was the end of the world. Somebody had given
me a tip of the location of the new office
for the you know what was then the CJC, the
Crime and Justice or whatever I was commissioned now the
(11:01):
Triple C. And I basically took the story tips fact
and wrote it ran that big which is, you know,
three or four paragraphs on page you know, one hundred,
and it was wrong. And the next day, obviously, you know,
it turned out that it was just wrong and I
just hadn't done the work, just hadn't checked. But I
just felt like the world was crumbling around me, because
(11:23):
you know you've made a mistake and you don't know
at that time whether it's a consequence or not. You know,
now as the editor, there's probably ten or eleven of
them on any given week. You know, you just sort
of work through not the exact thing, but you work
through issues all the time. I just felt like, again,
everyone was looking at me. Your world's collapsing. The chief
of staff at that time was Paul Whittaker, who's now
(11:44):
the chief executive of Sky News, and he's a classic
will always be a great journalist no matter what he's doing.
And he came over and he sat on my desk
and he said, I can tell that you're hurting. And
you know, you've got two ways to go from this.
One you can let this consume you, or two, you
can just learn from the mistake and just don't make
(12:06):
that mistake again. What can you learn and just push
forward with confidence.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Newsrooms, particularly twenty five.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Years ago, were not great places for leadership culture. But
I think that was the first example or modeling of
just really strong leadership. Yeah, take the time out, show
the empathy, but be factual. Yeah, like call it out,
give the feedback, but also give permission to get out
(12:33):
of it. I'll never forget that, and I owe that
sort of moment to Paul.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
There's a show, doesn't it like they could have been
a very different interaction you had. How would you say
that in general you are with self compassion, because it
sounds like you probably beat yourself up a lot at
that point.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Fair enough, you're a young guy.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You wanted to get ahead now when things happen, and
now you've got tons more responsibility on your shoulders when
things don't go to plan.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well has it in a critic?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yeah, pretty vocal. I don't like to stuff up.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
I certainly have many perfectionist traits, and I think you learn,
don't you learn how to moderate over the years you
get older, which I'm suddenly feeling. I actually try to
lean into it a little bit. I do, genuinely try
to lean into self awareness and particularly self reflection. And
that's not exactly what you're asking, But I always always
set aside time to reflect on most things. So a
(13:20):
conversation in leadership, I'll always reflect on, you know, a
mistake or yesterday's paper or yesterday's story, or that story
we just published, or that slide deck I've just presented,
or the presentation of that slide deck, or the presentation
of that strategy, or the conversation I've had with my
peers and all those moments. I always just try to
take that thirty seconds or ninety seconds to sit and
(13:41):
actually work through it, probably sending myself mad in the process,
but try to be very deliberate about you know what
am I learning from that?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah? I hate to make a mistake still.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Well, I mean I think the industry you're in and
the role you're in, like in comparison to lots of
other roles, mistakes can be quite big and e quite amplified.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Right, how do you relax if.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You're not leaving work till nine o'clock and you're waking
it too? With?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Has this gone out? If we think about resilience in
my you resilience as the obstacles are the path. You
can't avoid the obstacles. They're coming, it's just what are
you doing to prepare for them? So how do you
set yourself up to live what could be quite a
high adrenaline stressful life in terms of things could fire
off at any stage?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
How do you keep yourself calm and how do you
keeps it together. What are you doing?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You just drink a lot, Emma, I'm just cut of
that numbers.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
No, No, not the case. No, that actually makes it worse.
So first point is I think you just have to
assume it's going to consume your life. How do you relax? Well,
I think it's just getting those coping mechanisms of just
learning about having a head full of stuff and being
able to just you know, compartmentalize at the end of
the day and just know it's all going to be
there tomorrow, which just sort of I think comes over
time in terms of relaxing. I love anything around the water, boating, fishing,
(14:50):
being at the beach, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Water is my.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
Yeah, okay, And if I can have a water experience
in the diary knowing it's coming, the thought of that
is quite comforting when things do get pretty full on
The other advice I've had from my boss now, Michael Miller,
who's the executive chairman, is every couple of weeks set
aside some time to actually just id eight and think, yeah,
(15:15):
so whether that's you know, alternate fridays, just work from
home for the morning and don't actually put anything in
your diary and just maybe make a list of things
you want to think about and just actually spend the
time thinking. And every morning I do try, I endeavor
to just do a ten minute guided meditation. Do find
that really does help ground and is ten minutes? I'm
(15:36):
sure most people listening to this, No, it's often hard
to find the ten minutes, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
It's just thing, isn't it's eighten minutes? But yet it
can be quite hard to find.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
So I'm super obsessed with mel Robins at the moment,
a big fan of her current work that she's put
out around to let them theory, and as somebody who
probably hasn't done that very well in her life, like
I can let people's opinions and thoughts affect me and
gathering being in journalism, like you have to develop a
thick skin, right because people have opinions on what you're
right and so forth. Do you feel that it's been
a case with you, Like, is your skin go really
(16:05):
thick over the years?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Does it still bother you when people have opinions on you?
Or does it not even affect you anymore?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Okay, So as a journalist, never really felt it as
a reporter, so I never really felt it, and that's
because I was in the old school world of you know,
we weren't the story. Yeah, you have to learn as
an editor. I think in Hobart I learned it. I
was there for two and a half years as the editor.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And the.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Love affair or that, the ownership and love that a
community like Hobart two hundred thousand people have for their
masterthead is extraordinary. They all feel like they have permission
to criticize and so on, and often that becomes quite personal.
So that was probably the steepest learning curve was just
(16:52):
learning to deal with that. I think the way I
get through it is to just go, well, am I
confident in the position that we talk or you know
the way we approach that? And if so, then the
rest of it is just input and feedback can noise
so it doesn't hurt people, doesn't mean it stopped hurting.
Maybe that's the bark you know I've had. There was
(17:12):
a period there when during the pandemic, when bored Kevin Rudd.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
We all know that.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
We all know that Kevin Rudd. There are many you know.
It was tweeting to his However, many followers. I think
he bought most of them, but the you know, that
little little mob that he gathered in that era, you know,
just personally calling me out. And you know, I think
it was one one tweet. I do remember them. But
one tweet was like, you know, there's rumors that, you know,
(17:39):
Chris Jones's job is in jeopardy because of you know,
some perceived political slight you know, Kevin and Malcolm of
the Classic they forget it was all good when, you know,
when they were being supported by our company and the editorials,
and they forget that and they focus on the other
stuff since when we're calling out their madness. But anyway,
(18:00):
and and you know, you feel, you know, I wasn't
worried about my job, but you fear it because you're
being sort of exposed. You know, you didn't choose public
life like the politicians.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I think you're a fair game. But I think that's
probably part of it as well.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
I think you just have to accept that as the editor,
you have chosen a bit of a public role, even
though it's not that customer facing always. And also, you know,
if you're kind of giving it, you might as well
you should probably be up for getting a little bit back, and.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Again that's fine.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I just I remember when Virgin, when I was back
at Virgin and we went through administration.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
There's the cartoon slating of our leader at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Paul and great great got two. Pool's a good guy, isn't.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
He's a great guy.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Very privileged to work for him for that period, and
and I just I remember feeling so much for him,
like because I knew him as a person as out
you know, I worked for him.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
It was a great human being.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And he was slated a lot of the time, and
I just thought, God, that's got to do something to people.
And and I know, and he's pretty transparent. Actually, he's
quite a vulnerable leader to be able to say, yeah,
it really hurt. And I think it's important to know
that even though people have got thick skin like it's
it's still a lot. It's a it's a tough thing
to go through. If you then look at the the
other side sort of with authenticity, is it easy.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
To be completely Christians all the time?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Like are the things that you actually want to say
and do at times that you just can't because of
the role you play.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
I haven't actually found that Emma. I think the great thing,
one of the great things about our company is for
all of the criticism, I tell you, you know, it's
probably not the right place to get into it, but
for all the criticism is there's a whole lot of
great things about our company, as there is, you know,
and the criticism tends to come from our you know, yes,
our critics, but also our competitors.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
The free reign that.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
You get as editor to pursue what it is that
you think is important for your community is pretty extraordinary,
so you can be authentic. There's the view from the
inside of the company is as the editor in a
place you are, your job is not just put out
the product. Your job is to be absolutely an aggressive
(20:00):
I suppose, or an out there member and aggressive in
a you know, in a good sense, aggressively pursuing you know,
what makes that community tick, Listening to your readers what's
important to them, and connecting that up with the things
that you hear in the unique access that you get
around town. And we're let and you know, if I
(20:21):
meet with Robert Thompson, who's our global CEO, all he
does is ask me questions about Queensland. Because my job
is to understand Queensland better than anyone else. If you're
given the freedom to do that, then you can be
authentic in terms of what you're pursuing, what you're saying,
all that sort of stuff. I think the authenticity in
the workplace hopefully my team see it. I think it's
(20:45):
often a challenge, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
In leadership. You've got a really.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Busy job where you get so busy and so consumed
with that to do list that you struggle to find
the time to show people the authentic you. And when
you do, you get that connection that you feel like,
oh wow, that's really driving an outcome here, and then
you get caught back in your list. Our CTO in
(21:08):
Australia does a thing where before he even gets to
his desk, he walks through the room and talks to
as many people as he can.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
He must iroze.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
It just sets aside half an hour to just do
that at the start of every working day, and his
team you don't even have to say his name, you
just say has work.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
They oh, I love it.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Every day my boss comes in and has a authentic
conversation with me, and it can be about the work,
but it can also be because we're having this all
the time and just talk about life whatever. So I
try to do that. You go for a wander through
the newsroom, but you're just a slave to the priorities, right,
and your prior should be a people. I just think
that juggle is a real constant challenge in my view.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I say culture's behavior repeated, right, So it's what people
see all the time. So like in some roles and companies,
you've got the ability to put things in place and
practices and rituals, but you know you are living by
the what's going on around you and what happens. You're
at the mercy of that. So I think it's role modeling,
isn't it. Like if I Win and chatted to five
r people that work for you, how do you think
they'd describe you as a leader.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
I hope fundamentally they would say he's a great editor, yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Because that's what we do.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
And I would worry that they would say a bit
too much of I don't really know him, as I say,
that's my constant struggle is just how to get that
balance right to invest in You talk about cultures and
it was never modeled to me.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
The newsroom that I spent the first.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Ten years in at least started in ninety eight, So
they weren't smoke filled rooms, but they certainly were filled
with a bunch of cranky old people who thought the
way to an outcome and ironically it got you there
was to yell at you and rand and rave and
carry on. So it was never modeled. And I've never
actually been in I've never done anything else. I've never
been in an environment which I can model that behavior
(22:51):
of that would be my concern if I'm being vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Yes, no, it is.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's a true thing, right because it comes at risk.
But when you say, is it more a fear of
being judged if you are or open? We talk about
being open? Talk about the most obvious thing COVID Right
when it happened. Was it like I'm at the helm,
We've got this, It's just go, go, go go.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Or is it I'm exhausted?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
How are you guys feeling like I'm not sleeping too
well with anybody else in this boat? Was there much
of that happening at that time? Was that difficult to
do because you kind.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Of had to just well, I think one of the
great benefits of that lockdown time was that we all
as leaders hopefully invested in the human side. Yeah, because
you knew everyone was strong, and you would find the
time or lean into that a lot more, maybe because
you weren't seeing face to face. I think the impact
of COVID, obviously it has been huge. I've seen it
(23:40):
certainly in our newsroom and in our industry. For so
many people it was a really it was a moment
where they thought about their life and how they want
to spend it. And I think we're still seeing the
ripples of that. What we used to do in COVID
is one example is we had a bunch of cadets
as usual who we would normally be training up just
(24:01):
authentically in the newsroom. So we sat up a weekly
hour where we batch them up with mentors. I'd get
on there and we just talk to them and you know,
what's been hard this week?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
What have you loved doing?
Speaker 5 (24:11):
All that sort of stuff, and we just have that
chat and just give them that time. Literally, I always
feel like I'm a prisoner to that, you know, the
challenge of the to do list versus the people stuff.
And I think that's also where my comfort.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Zone is, is that more time though, like, is it
a time thing.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
It's a comfort thing.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Yeah, so naturally focused or my safe space is how
are we going to do this?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Why are we doing it? How are we going to
do it? You know? What are we going to do?
Rather than whose stuff? I mean?
Speaker 5 (24:38):
I think one of the early lessons in leadership for
me was this shock that people came every day but
also just came generally from a different context. I couldn't
work out why don't you just want to work twelve
hours a day?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, you know, why don't you?
Speaker 5 (24:53):
I know you're different, your personality is different. It took
me a while to learn that everyone turns up in
a to diverent context. And I suppose the extension of
that being the TJ character is really recognizing you know
it instinctively, but really recognizing that your success relies on
having a great team around you who are focused and
(25:17):
supported and guided and valued and feel all those things
to deliver on the outcome. That has absolutely been a
journey for me.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well, I think it's actually a very nice touch on
empathy in a way, right, because understanding other people's perspectives
and points of views is a big part of empathy.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I feel empathy's the biggest struggle for leaders out there.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Personally.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
It's a challenging one right because it's holding space for
other people's emotions and what's going on. But as we're
seeing with workforces more and more people for the start
I was looking at the other day, but you know,
something like ninety two percent I think of employees expect
their company to be able to provide them with personal
support and development.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Now, ten years ago, I remember.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Speaking to somebody who would laugh at that and be like,
it's not out responsibility.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Like you know, sort yourself out, but that's what they want.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
And then we're going to have this, you know, gen
z workforce come twenty third, that thirty percent of our
workforce to expect that.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Do you see that?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Do you feel now there is that big chef with
I'm just grateful to have a bloody job versus actually
I need to give.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
These people more.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Well, you certainly see in the younger group, and that's
just I think that you're right, that's his generational thing.
I started there and I thought, oh, I want to
be chief of staff by the time I'm thirty and
I was twenty. You know, like there's my ten year goal.
These guys come in and go, I'd like to be
edited next week, you know, like just slow down a bit.
I think what's been interesting post COVID, whether it's a
post pandemic thing or what it is, there is more
(26:38):
of that sense. And I think it's probably also related
to these conversations, giving us in leadership permission to have
the more vulnerable conversations over lunch or whatever with our peers.
Maybe it's also a cultural thing, as people have just
started to realize, hey, you don't have to just kind
of turn up and do the grind, like there's something
else going on here too. We spend the third or
(27:01):
more of our life, you know, in these workplaces, I
suppose we expect more. And that's a real challenge for
busy leaders and particularly INNTJ leaders to dial into the
thing that you just naturally find the most challenging.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah. Would you say you're a curious leader or curiosity
something you need to I wanted to say curious, not
as a journalist, as a people leader.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Not enough.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, I think that's the kind of underlying bit, right,
is they just wanting to know more about people and
getting to know it. Yeah, journalism can be an industry
resistant to change, but you've been an ambassador from bracing change,
especially digital media and new technology. So like, where does
that inspiration come from? Like why are you so driven inevitability?
Speaker 5 (27:43):
One fair and that's like it's a bit flippant, but
actually it's also true, right, Like dragging a newsroom that
is a print newsroom. Yeah, my entire career, well certainly
the last all but the first few years has been
dragging that newsroom into what will be the future. Obviously,
there will be a time where we don't print. I
don't know when that is. It's further away than we think,
(28:04):
but there will be a time. So the core of
what we do is still the same storytelling, telling great stories,
making difference.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
All that sort of stuff.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
In a busy environment with a seven day roster where
you got a five am starter and a midnight finisher
and you got six weeks and three days leave a
year for journalists because they work public holidays, it is
very very hard to have your Tuesday morning scrum.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
It just basically doesn't happen.
Speaker 5 (28:30):
And so driving change, leading change is actually a real
challenge but is so important for our business, like any business.
But also it's just fun. There's this sense of the
golden ear of newspapers. It was a golden nearer because
we were just printing money, because we had the monopoly
on printing presses and classified ads. It wasn't gold in
(28:50):
a lot of other You go back and look at
some of those products that are pretty crap, and part
of that was it's so one dimensional if you add
photos maybe one and a half dimensional, the canvas of
print versus the canvas of digital. Why wouldn't you'd try
to lean into the canvas of digital and think about
how does that help us tell the stories? Not how
(29:12):
do we do tricks to add trickery, How does video, audio, graphics, whatever,
How does that help tell that story and really engage
the audience in Again, that story that you're telling I
think is just bloody.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Exciting, absolutely very conscious of time. Crest a more minutes,
you sure loving.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
It's the best counseling session I've ever been to.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I haven't even and I'm only scoping service. You're lucky.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I've I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
It, thinking I could, but I'm not going to push
them too hard.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
All right, A couple more I want to ask you here,
So when we talk about asking the hard questions.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I mean, you're not afraid to ask hard questions right
in journalism.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But what about having the difficult, hard conversations with your staff,
like you have to let someone know they're not performing
so well or whatever else do you have to deal with?
Speaker 4 (29:58):
How do you feel about those?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
It's the most important thing. It's also the hardest thing.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Yeah. Is it a skill of yours that you feel like.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
Oh, I feel like I'm good at it in the moment,
I feel like I'm also incredibly good at putting it off, Okay,
And that is a big learning that I've had, particularly
over the last eight years when I've been in the
editor type roles or the editor roles. Is just the
critical importance of leaning into them and it's getting them done,
ripping the band aid off. It's not only important for
(30:25):
you as the leader. It's not important for the subject
of that tough conversation. It's actually equally as important for
the team. Yeah, because the team know that person needs
that conversation.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
The longer you leave it to fester, the more it
impacts on how the team views your leadership.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Couldn't agree more and look to be honest when I
ask that question, and I often do. I mean, if
someone said to me they don't have a problem with that,
I think, then there's a problem with the leader because
it should affect you. Right, You're still dealing with someone's
feelings and emotions. The point is you can't avoid it.
It's that my favorite Brene Brown line clear is kind
unclear as unkind.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So I think it's important to do that. This is
a tough one.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
But why not awesome?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I means, if you wouldn't give it, I want to know,
Chris Jane, why should anyone be led by you?
Speaker 5 (31:08):
I would hope it's because I'm a leader who's genuinely
always trying to do better. I'm well aware, as you've
awkwardly exposed in the last half hour, how many gaps
I've got. But I spend lots of time on self reflection.
I sard lots of time thinking about how can I be
a better leader?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
What do I need to do to be better?
Speaker 5 (31:28):
And I'm always striving to be there, to be better,
to be like a Not to deflect, but it's a
bit like our journalism. It's not always right, but do
we try hard to get it right and make the
right cause, so there's that, and hopefully also what comes
through is you know, my passion for what we do.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Yeah, I can tell.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
The definite constant theme I've seen with a lot of
people is this, when you have this deep passion, it
doesn't feel like hard work of time. It's tough, but
it feels different, and I think, I mean, what a gift.
Not everybody in their life will get to do a
job where they feel that way, and so I think
for as long as you feel that way and you
turn up, I'm sure other people will feel it. I
could talk to you for a very long time, but
I want to thank you for coming on and for
being so honest and vulnerable, because it's not always.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Easy to do, and it is a gift for other
people because.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
A lot of people look up to you and admire you,
and to be able to see that you're not this
infallible human and that there's things about you too that
you want to work on and grow on, it is
going to be great for people.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Well, look, I've really enjoyed That's what I've tried to
bring today.
Speaker 5 (32:19):
Am, because I think you, as I said at the start,
you're doing such a great job with these things. I
think they're a real gift to others. And when you
asked me to do it, I thought, yeah, I reckon,
I can do that.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
And I think.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
Hopefully, hopefully that vulnerability is not just help showing that
I'm human like everyone, but also just hopefully people have
picked up other leaders who struggle with the same things
are hearing going, wow, I'm not alone.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Absolutely Bill's connection.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
When does the real counseling session I was going to
say to you, does that mean that you're going to
come on for a round two where I'll be way
tough and you I took it easy.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
I took it easy time.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I reckon you find We'll see how you go for
around too.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
But thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
It's been great.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Thanks Chris Thos
Appod Shay Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Happy people create happy businesses.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
True emotionally intelligent leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I picked up vomit once on our about our four
flight and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
I can do it now.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We will be joined by culture and leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us
the truth behind their brave leadership journeys.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I am delighted to have with me in studio. News
Corp Australia's.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Queensland editor and the editor of the Career Mail, mister
Chris Jones. Chris has had an impressive twenty one year
career with News Corps, spanning his early days as a
reporter to head of news and now finding it the
helm of one of the leading newspapers in the country.
He also co hosts Towards the Game's podcast with Lutzi,
where they explore the journey of Brisbane's transformation for the
(01:02):
twenty thirty two Olympic Games.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Welcome Chris.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm so happy to be here. Emma.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
I think what you're doing is really impressive. You're giving
a permission to be vulnerable, particularly for male leaders I
think find it quite difficult.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
And you know, it's funny like over the last few years,
particularly with running my business, you know, I have the
pleasure of often working with a lot of executives and
CEOs in their field, and people will say to me
afterwards like we're they scary, Like it's like they're.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Just human beings.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, That's kind of what this is about, is that
success doesn't mean that you don't have all of the
human emotions, and people can see that in a different way,
and it's sort of sometimes I think will put people
off moving to the type or pushing themselves the top
or whether they can even get there because they're not
completely stoic and you know, they don't have these things.
So it is kind of allowing people to see that
it's both sides of the coins you.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
I appreciate that. How's a year started for you?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Good? Busy. It's always busy, but always exciting as well.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
You know, we're coming up to a federal election, you know,
off the back of a state election with the change
of government and a lot of what we do as
politics yeah, it's courts and crime and and so on.
But I think what makes newspapering in the digital sense
these days as well as print, but newspapering different to
other media is the time that we spent thinking about
politics and so on, and the role that we play
(02:19):
in terms of meaning. That's probably the central point of
why journalism calls.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
People, is the ability to use.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
The platform to make a difference. You tend to do
that through politicians and the decisions that they make, and
leading them to that is really meaningful. So I always
start the year feeling relaxed after a big break, but
also excited about what's to come. You have a big break,
always do four weeks. I always do not much more
other than just sitting on my ass as much as possible,
(02:46):
Try not to travel too far, yep, and just do
a proper reset so you can come back fresh.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
That's good, good ritual.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Now I'm guessing that journalists just have an amazing way
of ensuring that there's little information about them out there.
So congratulations, you've done a good job with that. The
least amount of things I could recently human being with you,
I couldn't even forget what we were born are you
born in Brisbane?
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Well, I think part of that is I don't think
we're very good at telling our own story, you.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Know, So it's because you know what you're like.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
On the other end of the picture, I think.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
It's because you spend your career telling other people's stories
and leaning into them. It's kind of yeah, you find
it quite confronting. So I was born in Melbourne but
grew up in Brisbone. One of the interesting things when
I think about my career and leadership journey and someone
is all I ever wanted to do was be the
editor of the Korean Mail.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
No you didn't, Are you serious?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:35):
Absolutely, So it's great to have achieved it. And I've
been in this gig for five years. And it's kind
of interesting as well, where you reach a point at
which you've hit your goal and you can do it
for a period of time. But I've got twenty or
thirty years still in the workplace, and I guarantee you
I won't be able to the corean male for twenty
or thirty years from now, So you know, it's a
bit of a crossroads moment as well.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I bet were you delivering newspapers as a young boy?
What was it about.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
I just love journalism, and I do love newspapers as
much as you know. We're a digital subscription business now
that happens to do a newspaper, and the newspaper's still
really important and we still print a lot of them
every night light, but you know, the future is the
digital subscription business. But I just love There's something beautiful
about a newspaper and I've always been in love with it,
the romance of it. Like I said, I did put
out that little one in the street for a few
(04:21):
years in the end of primary school and loved that
and just always had a real affection for them. And
what it's growing into is a love of journalism and
as I say, the meaning behind great journalism and the
impact that you can have in telling, you know, the
stories of everyday heroes or sporting heroes, or indeed driving
(04:43):
significant change.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
I mean, obviously this there's a lot about the passion
you have for this. The purpose of being in this
field is to make change for good. It sounds like
wherever you possibly.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Can, I think journalism absolutely is a calling. Yeah, there
was a period there where every English teacher told their
kids who were good at English to choose journalism. Some
of the best journalists in the world world can't string
a sentence together.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, but they know what.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
A great story is, that you have the right motivation,
and they know how to put those things together tocue
great outcomes. And the way you motivate a team of
journalists is not to give them rewards or clap their
paid cynics. So the traditional workplace Friday afternoon stuff makes
them feel awkward.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
The way that you motivate.
Speaker 5 (05:30):
A team of journalists is really just back their stories,
back in what they want to tell and the change
that they want to make. I'd be very surprised if
there's many successful journalists who wouldn't just consider it a
total calling rather than a job that you turn up
to and do.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
For eight hours a day.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So then on the flip side, given this is to
purpose driven thing for yourself and for most journalists, probably
when you're in the reporting space, and let's say in
particular talking in politics right where sometimes sometimes a lot
of what said is to be popular, is it conflicting
for you? Then when you see people not using that
platform for good.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
I think one of the the challenges that the industry
has had over the past fifteen twenty years is the
rise of a celebrity journalist. I think journalists are best
when they're not the story, but absolutely in the middle
of it, so that they can provide the behind the scenes,
(06:26):
genuinely informed analysis and commentary. Analysis is better than commentary
if you're a journalist to then allow the readers into
those I suppose sacred spaces that readers would never actually
get access to it. The great thing about covering politics
is that you do get access to those things. The
greatest other than obviously being the end of the Curry Mail,
(06:48):
the greatest time in my life was when I was
in the Press Gallery in Canberra in two thousand and three,
in two thousand and four, and just the way you
just witness history in those halls, you're part of significant moments.
Bringing the readers into that is actually part of the
job of a great journalist, but never actually turning the
camera onto yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Does it worry that if you ever changed career pass
that you'd ever find the same adorenaline that you get
from this.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I'm not sure I could ever not be a journalist.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Going back to when you first started your career, I
did really comment that you said, I think you were
a reporter for the Weekly Outdoors.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I think that's what your first role was.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
Look, I won the lottery early in life.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I was at UNI. I was second year UNI.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
I met the great Dennis Watt, now the chair of
the Goldcast Titans, one of the greatest journalists ever. He
was chief of staff I think at the time. And
I met him in a journalism student Association function and
he said, with all this stuff you've done, I've done
a bit of boating and fishing sort of magazine worked
just as a part time gig to get me through UNI.
He said, you really should be putting your name up
(07:51):
to Chris Mitchell, who was the edder at the time.
So I sent off package Popoli. I sent it off
and I didn't hear anything for a couple of months.
Now it's a phone call from Chris Mitchell's the AA
saying come in on this date next Monday or whatever.
So I went and bought a tie and did all
that sort of stuff that you do when you're young
and going for your first job interview. I sat down
and Chris basically said I love what you've done.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Here.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
We're starting a weekly week end well outdoors. It was
called outdoors supplement. Yeah, on a Friday, I'd love you
to come in and be the reporter for that. So
the first maybe twelve months of my career was literally
jumping out of planes and riding around in boats and
calling it journalism. It was the weecked and I did
my best to hide myself over in the corner. But
(08:35):
it only lasted a year or so before you know,
the rest of the room figured out all the chief
of staff who wasn't Don figured out that I was there,
and obviously I had a bit of talent, and they
brought me into the news world and off we went.
That was a great year.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So I mean, I'm getting this sense that you're the
kind of person when you sit your mind to something,
you just go for it. Is that true? Or does
a lot of fear and doubt come into play? Is
that sort of a front or in the background, and
you thinking can I do this? Like I'm not even
finished my degree here, I'm just going to leap in
and do this.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I think self awareness is so important in leadership. So
I've spent a lot of time doing it.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
My natural work persona, which is not inauthentic to home,
you know, is a classic Myers Briggsy and TJ.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You know, it's the full.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Napoleon Steve Jobs commander type. Okay, if you're more of
a fan of the HBDI, I'm everything in equal measure
other than the red quadrant, the WHO stuff. So I'm
all about the what, how, why rather than the Who. Naturally,
so I do struggle with the empathy stuff, and I'd
love to come back to talk about that because I
think I've got some stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
To share there.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
But beyond all of that sort of personality stuff which
is authentic, is also this sense in my whole life
a natural shyness or something maybe a worry about what
people are thinking about me. And obviously part of that
drive is also look at me, look at me. So
I think there's been times where that's come across as
cockiness when it's not me being cocky. It's just me,
(09:59):
as you say, being driven and pushing. And I think
as you grow, being deliberate and learning how to when
to employ the confidence thing, when to actually lean into
that and when to come back and be more authentic
and vulnerable is a constant challenge. But something that's really
critical because cockiness can absolutely get in the way of
(10:21):
all sorts of things, including being promoted in a modern workplace.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Yeah right, interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So in those early days, then, what was your first
moment where you felt really exposed, Because you mean, you
probably would have had a bit of confidence in you,
you know, this young reporter jumping at the planes and everything.
When did something goes sort of a bit pear shape
and you suddenly went, oh, god.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
That you never ever ever forget your first big mistake
in journalism. Okay, and look, it wasn't a massively big
mistake in the scheme of things, but I felt like
it was the end of the world. Somebody had given
me a tip of the location of the new office
for the you know what was then the CJC, the
Crime and Justice or whatever I was commissioned now the
(11:01):
Triple C. And I basically took the story tips fact
and wrote it ran that big which is, you know,
three or four paragraphs on page you know, one hundred,
and it was wrong. And the next day, obviously, you know,
it turned out that it was just wrong and I
just hadn't done the work, just hadn't checked. But I
just felt like the world was crumbling around me, because
(11:23):
you know you've made a mistake and you don't know
at that time whether it's a consequence or not. You know,
now as the editor, there's probably ten or eleven of
them on any given week. You know, you just sort
of work through not the exact thing, but you work
through issues all the time. I just felt like, again,
everyone was looking at me. Your world's collapsing. The chief
of staff at that time was Paul Whittaker, who's now
(11:44):
the chief executive of Sky News, and he's a classic
will always be a great journalist no matter what he's doing.
And he came over and he sat on my desk
and he said, I can tell that you're hurting. And
you know, you've got two ways to go from this.
One you can let this consume you, or two, you
can just learn from the mistake and just don't make
(12:06):
that mistake again. What can you learn and just push
forward with confidence.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Newsrooms, particularly twenty five.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Years ago, were not great places for leadership culture. But
I think that was the first example or modeling of
just really strong leadership. Yeah, take the time out, show
the empathy, but be factual. Yeah, like call it out,
give the feedback, but also give permission to get out
(12:33):
of it. I'll never forget that, and I owe that
sort of moment to Paul.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
There's a show, doesn't it like they could have been
a very different interaction you had. How would you say
that in general you are with self compassion, because it
sounds like you probably beat yourself up a lot at
that point.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Fair enough, you're a young guy.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You wanted to get ahead now when things happen, and
now you've got tons more responsibility on your shoulders when
things don't go to plan.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well has it in a critic?
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yeah, pretty vocal. I don't like to stuff up.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
I certainly have many perfectionist traits, and I think you learn,
don't you learn how to moderate over the years you
get older, which I'm suddenly feeling. I actually try to
lean into it a little bit. I do, genuinely try
to lean into self awareness and particularly self reflection. And
that's not exactly what you're asking, But I always always
set aside time to reflect on most things. So a
(13:20):
conversation in leadership, I'll always reflect on, you know, a
mistake or yesterday's paper or yesterday's story, or that story
we just published, or that slide deck I've just presented,
or the presentation of that slide deck, or the presentation
of that strategy, or the conversation I've had with my
peers and all those moments. I always just try to
take that thirty seconds or ninety seconds to sit and
(13:41):
actually work through it, probably sending myself mad in the process,
but try to be very deliberate about you know what
am I learning from that?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah? I hate to make a mistake still.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Well, I mean I think the industry you're in and
the role you're in, like in comparison to lots of
other roles, mistakes can be quite big and e quite amplified.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Right, how do you relax if.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You're not leaving work till nine o'clock and you're waking
it too? With?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Has this gone out? If we think about resilience in
my you resilience as the obstacles are the path. You
can't avoid the obstacles. They're coming, it's just what are
you doing to prepare for them? So how do you
set yourself up to live what could be quite a
high adrenaline stressful life in terms of things could fire
off at any stage?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
How do you keep yourself calm and how do you
keeps it together. What are you doing?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You just drink a lot, Emma, I'm just cut of
that numbers.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
No, No, not the case. No, that actually makes it worse.
So first point is I think you just have to
assume it's going to consume your life. How do you relax? Well,
I think it's just getting those coping mechanisms of just
learning about having a head full of stuff and being
able to just you know, compartmentalize at the end of
the day and just know it's all going to be
there tomorrow, which just sort of I think comes over
time in terms of relaxing. I love anything around the water, boating, fishing,
(14:50):
being at the beach, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Water is my.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
Yeah, okay, And if I can have a water experience
in the diary knowing it's coming, the thought of that
is quite comforting when things do get pretty full on
The other advice I've had from my boss now, Michael Miller,
who's the executive chairman, is every couple of weeks set
aside some time to actually just id eight and think, yeah,
(15:15):
so whether that's you know, alternate fridays, just work from
home for the morning and don't actually put anything in
your diary and just maybe make a list of things
you want to think about and just actually spend the
time thinking. And every morning I do try, I endeavor
to just do a ten minute guided meditation. Do find
that really does help ground and is ten minutes? I'm
(15:36):
sure most people listening to this, No, it's often hard
to find the ten minutes, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
It's just thing, isn't it's eighten minutes? But yet it
can be quite hard to find.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
So I'm super obsessed with mel Robins at the moment,
a big fan of her current work that she's put
out around to let them theory, and as somebody who
probably hasn't done that very well in her life, like
I can let people's opinions and thoughts affect me and
gathering being in journalism, like you have to develop a
thick skin, right because people have opinions on what you're
right and so forth. Do you feel that it's been
a case with you, Like, is your skin go really
(16:05):
thick over the years?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Does it still bother you when people have opinions on you?
Or does it not even affect you anymore?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Okay, So as a journalist, never really felt it as
a reporter, so I never really felt it, and that's
because I was in the old school world of you know,
we weren't the story. Yeah, you have to learn as
an editor. I think in Hobart I learned it. I
was there for two and a half years as the editor.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And the.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Love affair or that, the ownership and love that a
community like Hobart two hundred thousand people have for their
masterthead is extraordinary. They all feel like they have permission
to criticize and so on, and often that becomes quite personal.
So that was probably the steepest learning curve was just
(16:52):
learning to deal with that. I think the way I
get through it is to just go, well, am I
confident in the position that we talk or you know
the way we approach that? And if so, then the
rest of it is just input and feedback can noise
so it doesn't hurt people, doesn't mean it stopped hurting.
Maybe that's the bark you know I've had. There was
(17:12):
a period there when during the pandemic, when bored Kevin Rudd.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
We all know that.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
We all know that Kevin Rudd. There are many you know.
It was tweeting to his However, many followers. I think
he bought most of them, but the you know, that
little little mob that he gathered in that era, you know,
just personally calling me out. And you know, I think
it was one one tweet. I do remember them. But
one tweet was like, you know, there's rumors that, you know,
(17:39):
Chris Jones's job is in jeopardy because of you know,
some perceived political slight you know, Kevin and Malcolm of
the Classic they forget it was all good when, you know,
when they were being supported by our company and the editorials,
and they forget that and they focus on the other
stuff since when we're calling out their madness. But anyway,
(18:00):
and and you know, you feel, you know, I wasn't
worried about my job, but you fear it because you're
being sort of exposed. You know, you didn't choose public
life like the politicians.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I think you're a fair game. But I think that's
probably part of it as well.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
I think you just have to accept that as the editor,
you have chosen a bit of a public role, even
though it's not that customer facing always. And also, you know,
if you're kind of giving it, you might as well
you should probably be up for getting a little bit back, and.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
Again that's fine.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I just I remember when Virgin, when I was back
at Virgin and we went through administration.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
There's the cartoon slating of our leader at the time.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Paul and great great got two. Pool's a good guy, isn't.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
He's a great guy.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Very privileged to work for him for that period, and
and I just I remember feeling so much for him,
like because I knew him as a person as out
you know, I worked for him.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
It was a great human being.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And he was slated a lot of the time, and
I just thought, God, that's got to do something to people.
And and I know, and he's pretty transparent. Actually, he's
quite a vulnerable leader to be able to say, yeah,
it really hurt. And I think it's important to know
that even though people have got thick skin like it's
it's still a lot. It's a it's a tough thing
to go through. If you then look at the the
other side sort of with authenticity, is it easy.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
To be completely Christians all the time?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Like are the things that you actually want to say
and do at times that you just can't because of
the role you play.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
I haven't actually found that Emma. I think the great thing,
one of the great things about our company is for
all of the criticism, I tell you, you know, it's
probably not the right place to get into it, but
for all the criticism is there's a whole lot of
great things about our company, as there is, you know,
and the criticism tends to come from our you know, yes,
our critics, but also our competitors.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
The free reign that.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
You get as editor to pursue what it is that
you think is important for your community is pretty extraordinary,
so you can be authentic. There's the view from the
inside of the company is as the editor in a
place you are, your job is not just put out
the product. Your job is to be absolutely an aggressive
(20:00):
I suppose, or an out there member and aggressive in
a you know, in a good sense, aggressively pursuing you know,
what makes that community tick, Listening to your readers what's
important to them, and connecting that up with the things
that you hear in the unique access that you get
around town. And we're let and you know, if I
(20:21):
meet with Robert Thompson, who's our global CEO, all he
does is ask me questions about Queensland. Because my job
is to understand Queensland better than anyone else. If you're
given the freedom to do that, then you can be
authentic in terms of what you're pursuing, what you're saying,
all that sort of stuff. I think the authenticity in
the workplace hopefully my team see it. I think it's
(20:45):
often a challenge, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
In leadership. You've got a really.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
Busy job where you get so busy and so consumed
with that to do list that you struggle to find
the time to show people the authentic you. And when
you do, you get that connection that you feel like,
oh wow, that's really driving an outcome here, and then
you get caught back in your list. Our CTO in
(21:08):
Australia does a thing where before he even gets to
his desk, he walks through the room and talks to
as many people as he can.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
He must iroze.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
It just sets aside half an hour to just do
that at the start of every working day, and his
team you don't even have to say his name, you
just say has work.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
They oh, I love it.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
Every day my boss comes in and has a authentic
conversation with me, and it can be about the work,
but it can also be because we're having this all
the time and just talk about life whatever. So I
try to do that. You go for a wander through
the newsroom, but you're just a slave to the priorities, right,
and your prior should be a people. I just think
that juggle is a real constant challenge in my view.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
I say culture's behavior repeated, right, So it's what people
see all the time. So like in some roles and companies,
you've got the ability to put things in place and
practices and rituals, but you know you are living by
the what's going on around you and what happens. You're
at the mercy of that. So I think it's role modeling,
isn't it. Like if I Win and chatted to five
r people that work for you, how do you think
they'd describe you as a leader.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
I hope fundamentally they would say he's a great editor, yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Because that's what we do.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
And I would worry that they would say a bit
too much of I don't really know him, as I say,
that's my constant struggle is just how to get that
balance right to invest in You talk about cultures and
it was never modeled to me.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
The newsroom that I spent the first.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
Ten years in at least started in ninety eight, So
they weren't smoke filled rooms, but they certainly were filled
with a bunch of cranky old people who thought the
way to an outcome and ironically it got you there
was to yell at you and rand and rave and
carry on. So it was never modeled. And I've never
actually been in I've never done anything else. I've never
been in an environment which I can model that behavior
(22:51):
of that would be my concern if I'm being vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Yes, no, it is.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's a true thing, right because it comes at risk.
But when you say, is it more a fear of
being judged if you are or open? We talk about
being open? Talk about the most obvious thing COVID Right
when it happened. Was it like I'm at the helm,
We've got this, It's just go, go, go go.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Or is it I'm exhausted?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
How are you guys feeling like I'm not sleeping too
well with anybody else in this boat? Was there much
of that happening at that time? Was that difficult to
do because you kind.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Of had to just well, I think one of the
great benefits of that lockdown time was that we all
as leaders hopefully invested in the human side. Yeah, because
you knew everyone was strong, and you would find the
time or lean into that a lot more, maybe because
you weren't seeing face to face. I think the impact
of COVID, obviously it has been huge. I've seen it
(23:40):
certainly in our newsroom and in our industry. For so
many people it was a really it was a moment
where they thought about their life and how they want
to spend it. And I think we're still seeing the
ripples of that. What we used to do in COVID
is one example is we had a bunch of cadets
as usual who we would normally be training up just
(24:01):
authentically in the newsroom. So we sat up a weekly
hour where we batch them up with mentors. I'd get
on there and we just talk to them and you know,
what's been hard this week?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
What have you loved doing?
Speaker 5 (24:11):
All that sort of stuff, and we just have that
chat and just give them that time. Literally, I always
feel like I'm a prisoner to that, you know, the
challenge of the to do list versus the people stuff.
And I think that's also where my comfort.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Zone is, is that more time though, like, is it
a time thing.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
It's a comfort thing.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Yeah, so naturally focused or my safe space is how
are we going to do this?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Why are we doing it? How are we going to
do it? You know? What are we going to do?
Rather than whose stuff? I mean?
Speaker 5 (24:38):
I think one of the early lessons in leadership for
me was this shock that people came every day but
also just came generally from a different context. I couldn't
work out why don't you just want to work twelve
hours a day?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, you know, why don't you?
Speaker 5 (24:53):
I know you're different, your personality is different. It took
me a while to learn that everyone turns up in
a to diverent context. And I suppose the extension of
that being the TJ character is really recognizing you know
it instinctively, but really recognizing that your success relies on
having a great team around you who are focused and
(25:17):
supported and guided and valued and feel all those things
to deliver on the outcome. That has absolutely been a
journey for me.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Well, I think it's actually a very nice touch on
empathy in a way, right, because understanding other people's perspectives
and points of views is a big part of empathy.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I feel empathy's the biggest struggle for leaders out there.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Personally.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
It's a challenging one right because it's holding space for
other people's emotions and what's going on. But as we're
seeing with workforces more and more people for the start
I was looking at the other day, but you know,
something like ninety two percent I think of employees expect
their company to be able to provide them with personal
support and development.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Now, ten years ago, I remember.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Speaking to somebody who would laugh at that and be like,
it's not out responsibility.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
Like you know, sort yourself out, but that's what they want.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
And then we're going to have this, you know, gen
z workforce come twenty third, that thirty percent of our
workforce to expect that.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Do you see that?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Do you feel now there is that big chef with
I'm just grateful to have a bloody job versus actually
I need to give.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
These people more.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Well, you certainly see in the younger group, and that's
just I think that you're right, that's his generational thing.
I started there and I thought, oh, I want to
be chief of staff by the time I'm thirty and
I was twenty. You know, like there's my ten year goal.
These guys come in and go, I'd like to be
edited next week, you know, like just slow down a bit.
I think what's been interesting post COVID, whether it's a
post pandemic thing or what it is, there is more
(26:38):
of that sense. And I think it's probably also related
to these conversations, giving us in leadership permission to have
the more vulnerable conversations over lunch or whatever with our peers.
Maybe it's also a cultural thing, as people have just
started to realize, hey, you don't have to just kind
of turn up and do the grind, like there's something
else going on here too. We spend the third or
(27:01):
more of our life, you know, in these workplaces, I
suppose we expect more. And that's a real challenge for
busy leaders and particularly INNTJ leaders to dial into the
thing that you just naturally find the most challenging.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah. Would you say you're a curious leader or curiosity
something you need to I wanted to say curious, not
as a journalist, as a people leader.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Not enough.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, I think that's the kind of underlying bit, right,
is they just wanting to know more about people and
getting to know it. Yeah, journalism can be an industry
resistant to change, but you've been an ambassador from bracing change,
especially digital media and new technology. So like, where does
that inspiration come from? Like why are you so driven inevitability?
Speaker 5 (27:43):
One fair and that's like it's a bit flippant, but
actually it's also true, right, Like dragging a newsroom that
is a print newsroom. Yeah, my entire career, well certainly
the last all but the first few years has been
dragging that newsroom into what will be the future. Obviously,
there will be a time where we don't print. I
don't know when that is. It's further away than we think,
(28:04):
but there will be a time. So the core of
what we do is still the same storytelling, telling great stories,
making difference.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
All that sort of stuff.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
In a busy environment with a seven day roster where
you got a five am starter and a midnight finisher
and you got six weeks and three days leave a
year for journalists because they work public holidays, it is
very very hard to have your Tuesday morning scrum.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
It just basically doesn't happen.
Speaker 5 (28:30):
And so driving change, leading change is actually a real
challenge but is so important for our business, like any business.
But also it's just fun. There's this sense of the
golden ear of newspapers. It was a golden nearer because
we were just printing money, because we had the monopoly
on printing presses and classified ads. It wasn't gold in
(28:50):
a lot of other You go back and look at
some of those products that are pretty crap, and part
of that was it's so one dimensional if you add
photos maybe one and a half dimensional, the canvas of
print versus the canvas of digital. Why wouldn't you'd try
to lean into the canvas of digital and think about
how does that help us tell the stories? Not how
(29:12):
do we do tricks to add trickery, How does video, audio, graphics, whatever,
How does that help tell that story and really engage
the audience in Again, that story that you're telling I
think is just bloody.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Exciting, absolutely very conscious of time. Crest a more minutes,
you sure loving.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
It's the best counseling session I've ever been to.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I haven't even and I'm only scoping service. You're lucky.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
I've I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
It, thinking I could, but I'm not going to push
them too hard.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
All right, A couple more I want to ask you here,
So when we talk about asking the hard questions.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
I mean, you're not afraid to ask hard questions right
in journalism.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But what about having the difficult, hard conversations with your staff,
like you have to let someone know they're not performing
so well or whatever else do you have to deal with?
Speaker 4 (29:58):
How do you feel about those?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
It's the most important thing. It's also the hardest thing.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Yeah. Is it a skill of yours that you feel like.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
Oh, I feel like I'm good at it in the moment,
I feel like I'm also incredibly good at putting it off, Okay,
And that is a big learning that I've had, particularly
over the last eight years when I've been in the
editor type roles or the editor roles. Is just the
critical importance of leaning into them and it's getting them done,
ripping the band aid off. It's not only important for
(30:25):
you as the leader. It's not important for the subject
of that tough conversation. It's actually equally as important for
the team. Yeah, because the team know that person needs
that conversation.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
The longer you leave it to fester, the more it
impacts on how the team views your leadership.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Couldn't agree more and look to be honest when I
ask that question, and I often do. I mean, if
someone said to me they don't have a problem with that,
I think, then there's a problem with the leader because
it should affect you. Right, You're still dealing with someone's
feelings and emotions. The point is you can't avoid it.
It's that my favorite Brene Brown line clear is kind
unclear as unkind.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So I think it's important to do that. This is
a tough one.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
But why not awesome?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I means, if you wouldn't give it, I want to know,
Chris Jane, why should anyone be led by you?
Speaker 5 (31:08):
I would hope it's because I'm a leader who's genuinely
always trying to do better. I'm well aware, as you've
awkwardly exposed in the last half hour, how many gaps
I've got. But I spend lots of time on self reflection.
I sard lots of time thinking about how can I be
a better leader?
Speaker 3 (31:26):
What do I need to do to be better?
Speaker 5 (31:28):
And I'm always striving to be there, to be better,
to be like a Not to deflect, but it's a
bit like our journalism. It's not always right, but do
we try hard to get it right and make the
right cause, so there's that, and hopefully also what comes
through is you know, my passion for what we do.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
I love it.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
Yeah, I can tell.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
The definite constant theme I've seen with a lot of
people is this, when you have this deep passion, it
doesn't feel like hard work of time. It's tough, but
it feels different, and I think, I mean, what a gift.
Not everybody in their life will get to do a
job where they feel that way, and so I think
for as long as you feel that way and you
turn up, I'm sure other people will feel it. I
could talk to you for a very long time, but
I want to thank you for coming on and for
being so honest and vulnerable, because it's not always.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Easy to do, and it is a gift for other
people because.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
A lot of people look up to you and admire you,
and to be able to see that you're not this
infallible human and that there's things about you too that
you want to work on and grow on, it is
going to be great for people.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Well, look, I've really enjoyed That's what I've tried to
bring today.
Speaker 5 (32:19):
Am, because I think you, as I said at the start,
you're doing such a great job with these things. I
think they're a real gift to others. And when you
asked me to do it, I thought, yeah, I reckon,
I can do that.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
And I think.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
Hopefully, hopefully that vulnerability is not just help showing that
I'm human like everyone, but also just hopefully people have
picked up other leaders who struggle with the same things
are hearing going, wow, I'm not alone.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Absolutely Bill's connection.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
When does the real counseling session I was going to
say to you, does that mean that you're going to
come on for a round two where I'll be way
tough and you I took it easy.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
I took it easy time.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I reckon you find We'll see how you go for
around too.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
But thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
It's been great.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Thanks Chris Thos
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