August 25, 2024 • 27 mins
Julie McLellan is as close as you’ll get to a born leader. Facing challenges and change from an early age, she got comfortable with the uncomfortable, and wasn’t afraid of the responsibility that comes with creating the kind of culture (and world) she wanted to live in. It’s something she continues to work on today, and her ability to ‘tell it like it is’ is both enlightening, and incredibly refreshing.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appoche Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Happy people create happy businesses, true emotionally intelligent leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I've picked up vomit once on our about our fourth flight,
and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
I can do it now.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We will be joined by culture and leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us
the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. Today I am
joined by CEO of Healthy Land and Water, Julie McClellan.
Healthy Land and Water is the peak environmental group for
Southeast Queensland. For over twenty years, it's been dedicated to
investing in and leading initiatives to build the prosperity, livability
(00:52):
and sustainability of our future region. Julie has held this
role since its inception in twenty thirteen. As an accomplished
executive with significant leadership and general management experience.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
She has over eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Years as CEO with a focus on creating profit for purpose.
An expert in waterway management, governance, strategy, risk and company finance.
Prior to a role at Healthy Land, and water. Julie
held senior executive positions in local government spanning nearly thirty years,
and was responsible for portfolios including research and business development, innovation,
service delivery, and design.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Welcome, Julie, Thanks you to have you in the studio now. Julie.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
One of the first things I read about you, because
I always do my little bit of digging in research,
was around your core values, which, as I read you
define as honesty, trust, justice, and humor. Have these been
core values of yours since you were young and why
they're so important to you?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Definitely? Humor and natural justice have been very strong values
of mine since I was young. I've always been one
to go in and fight for someone else, probably to
my detriment on many occasions. Okay, but yeah, It's definitely
been part of my core values. Absolutely, and I've always
been probably too honest, probably for my own good coming
up through my career. But okay, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Is there a moment that you sort of sticks out
to you when you think that, well, it's probably a
mixture of.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
If I think about it now, when I talk about
natural justice and it's defending other people. I can't stand bullies,
and so I'll take them on. I've never been bullied
at school because I just don't give them airtime, you know.
So if I see other people being bullied, yeah, very
strong values there, like I'll take them on. Yeah, I
love that. And so does that sort of follow through
(02:33):
for you?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Now? I guess at work, like, how does that play
into not tolerating that kind of behavior at work?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You lead from the top, right, so what people see
is generally what in my experience, people will follow. So
I don't tolerate it at all in the workplace. I
grew up all around the world and I moved. I
think by the time I was in grade eleven, I'd
been to twelve or thirteen different schools, so we were
never in one place for more than a year as
(02:59):
a kid. So you have to go in and make
new friends very quickly. You got to rely on your humor, right, yeahha,
it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, so God, there's a lot of moving around.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It was a lot of moving around. Can I ask
why was that? Dad engineer? We were the original ten
pound poms, you know. But we went to South Africa
and they worked on power stations, and so you do
a year or so and then move and it was
just a very dynamic environment. We just kept moving a lot.
You spent a lot of time in South Africa. Yeah, yeah, ah,
how was that? Well? I loved it, but in hindsight,
(03:35):
I mean that's when apartheid, yeah, was in and again
I could never understand why you would have a white
bench and a black bench.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I just couldn't fathom it. So and then we went
back to the UK, and then we came out to
Australia and moved around Australia a bit too.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I'm seeing some synergies here now with some stuff I've
read about your involvement and things like the rap that
you guys have done as well, So experiencing that at
a young age, like and then coming back to Australia, like,
how is it influenced I guess your passion around culture
and diversity.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I probably never dwelled on
it because it was just one of those parts of
my life where I just couldn't understand. I mean I
was a kid, right, and it just defied logic to me,
of course, that the color of your skin can determine
who you are and what your role is in society.
And you know, apparently you're not smart or it's just
(04:24):
never I've never understood it. And when we went back
to the UK, my mum was very adamant that we
didn't embrace apartheid, right, so even though she were white
and we're English, and yes we had staff, but they
were part of the family. My brother was brought up
by nanny right because mum was working, so they were
very much part of our family. We never saw I
(04:46):
didn't see them as employees. They lived with us, and
that was it. We went back to the UK and
it's fine obviously that it's quite a mixed race in England.
And my mum took my sister to the doctor. Now
my sister's five years younger than me, and the doctor
was a black doctor and Mom went in, took her
in't think much of it, and my sister turned around
(05:06):
to my mum and she said, she can't be a doctor,
she's black. My mum was mortified. So my sister had
been quite impacted, and Mom said, well she's a doctor
and we are staying. And Mom's just like, I'm so sorry,
like she said, I didn't realize my daughter was like this,
you know, And it was an interesting yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
That you're very passionate about that space. And so you
guys have launched a wrap yes where you're at And
I think that when I read that and then I
hear that's where you grew up, there would have been
some impact. I'm sure, whether you picked up on it
or not, right, that's right, wanting to subconscious yeah, subconscious, yeah, absolutely.
I mean we are defined by every event in our life, right,
So only because you've asked me that question, that's made
(05:47):
me think, well, obviously that did define me. Yeah, I
think you know, for me, it's that adversity, right that
you face as a young person, and you've just did
changing many of my schools, living in very very different cultures,
experiencing different parenting.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You know, that does change somebody.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And I think that from what I've seen, a lot
of the most sort of empathetic CEOs have that story
of adversity where they've had to kind of rise above
it or work through it. So I will come to
resilience because it's a big one for me in my
brave But I wanted to just touch on the trust
part of the value that you mentioned, right, because I
love that trust. Isn't there right any foundation of any
good team. I'm kind of fascinated in this idea of
(06:24):
fast tracking trust, Like I'm always looking for almost like
hacks of how can you get trust as quickly as possible? Right?
That is where you can get more out of people. So,
given it's one of your values, what's your approach to
building trust with people? Like, do you have an approach
like to do it quickly?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Or you know, if you look at my values, then honesty.
So I think if you're honest, you will build trust.
What you see is what you get. I have no
hidden agenda. Yeah, I can play the game if I
have to. I'm still kind of full frontal, you know,
what's the point like really pissing around? Like seriously, you
can waste so much energy. So if you're going to
build trust, you build it quick and fast. However, the
(07:01):
flip side of that, if I don't trust you or
you don't trust me, then just move on. If you
don't connect and you're not going to work, give you
would give trust upfront person versus you have to don it.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I am until you abuse that trust, yeah, I
shut down. But I hardly agree that approach. I think
it's the faster way to go about them waiting for
everyone to earn it. So, obviously, as you've listened to
some of the podcasts, I do interview a lot of
female CEOs and pretty much every single one of them
has had to face some kind of challenge to get
where they are, particularly being a female, right all of them. So,
(07:33):
what has been your greatest challenge in being a female
leader or getting to where you've gotten order to teach you?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So, if you think about how long I've been working therefore,
you know, obviously I was coming up in the eighties
and starting my career. That was tough. I worked in
the mining industry initially, I'm a chemist, industrial chemist. As
I came up through my career, I was often seen
as the token woman and you really shouldn't have a voice.
They say that. That doesn't rest too well with me.
(08:00):
I didn't believe I was a token woman. I thought
I'd earned my right to be at that table. These
other conversations that happened before you get in the room.
So you get in the room and you're like, right,
they're gonna value what I have to say. Obviously I'm
here for that, And it's gone off on a completely
different tangent you're sort of like, that's not what this
agenda was about. It was a very tough boys club
you were there for probably looks. I've run out of
(08:21):
fingers to count how many times I've been asked someone
or just say, well, should we here just have sex? Oh?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No, yeah no, And I'm like, sorry, I was not
expecting you to say that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Really, how did you push through that? It's an interesting
question because I just in my mind was just like,
fuck off.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
There have been times in my career where I know
I was spoken to in a way that was inappropriate.
On reflection, now, being older, I've gone whoa like, I
would not accept that now, Whereas my approach when I
was younger and coming up the ranks was to almost
use humor and laugh it off, and I would tell
people I don't care that much. But as I get older,
(09:00):
I wonder if that was actually the truth, or was
that that didn't know how to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's probably a bit of both, right, Like, I mean,
you don't know how to deal with it. But it's
interesting because I talked to other colleagues of mine my
sort of age, you know, late fifties, early sixties, and
there's not one that hasn't had an experience like that
when I first started, even with Brisbane Water. So this
is here, the sewage treatment plants, women didn't go on them.
(09:25):
There were no female toilets on some of the old ones,
so you'd have to go to the men's toilet, and
boy did you feel intimidated with the posters on the wall?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Right, And that was the late eighties, But it doesn't
think it speaks a lot to the fact that I've
had this conversation with few people where I see women
going up the ranks and leadership roles having to adopt
more masculine style in order to survive right or to
be taken seriously. Well, I can see why, yeah, because
using your feminine side in those moments pre didn't serve
you very well.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
They don't. You are still feminine, like, you're still genuine,
but you do have to know often say I've got
more balls than the rest of you, you know, or
I can piss her at the wall, so let's just
keep going, shall we. And it's very much how you
deal with someone. I would never ever deal with staff
or people are earning my trust like that, but I
have had to deal with some quite bullish sort of
(10:16):
men that sort of really stand up and exert their
height and their power over you, and I just go
to the other side of the desk so it doesn't
look like I'm looking up so much, you know, and yeah,
generally I've come out on top. Well, thank you for shen.
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So from what I've heard, like through your storyan like
we've grown up and what's happening with challenges, it feels
like there might have been some sacrifices you've had to
make along the way to get to where you are.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Would you say that or yeah, you know the saying
you can have it all or you can't, right, you
can't have it all. I've got four children between my
wife and I, so we are a blended family. From
when the youngest, Andrew, was two and a half, so
we had a two year old, a three year old,
a four year old, and a five year old. When
we got together, we both had executive careers. We were
(11:02):
both trying to break through the glass ceiling for one
of a better word, So you had to be that
little bit better, You had to work that little bit
longer to get a career progression. Many times I've had
to go down or sideways to go up. You don't
necessarily get that up, which is great, makes you're a
lot more all rounded, but at the time it's like, damn,
(11:22):
I got to take less money out just to try
and get across. Now, obviously, if you're good you do that,
you get noticed quicker and you move up. So I
wouldn't say it's a hard chip. Sometimes you just have
to learn stuff that you just don't know the sacrifices.
I was not a stay at home mum, never have been.
That was my choice. If you take too long out
of the workforce, you too far behind, and hopefully things
(11:42):
are changing having flexible work conditions and that we didn't
have that. You went to work and you were at work,
you know, and if you weren't at work, that meant
you were on leave. I have four amazing adult children.
They are incredibly resilient, know their mind. Do they come
and see mummy every day? No, because that wasn't the
(12:03):
family we brought up. So you do make such Do.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You look at that length, do you that you weren't
around as much? Well, I wasn't around as much. I
mean every night. Of course, it was kind of militant.
You know, I'd walk in at six thirty in bang
bang Adena and eat, eat, wash dishes, chat chat chat,
Have you done your homework?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I was not a mum who ever made a diorama.
In fact, I struggled to smell it. And I don't
know why we have to make them. But anyway, my
kids did all their own homework. They did every bit
of school work that went back to school was theirs,
not mine. Yeah, I mean I was very onto their education,
so we're betied them if they weren't getting quite good grades.
I have a fantastic relationship with their father. We stayed
(12:43):
living very close in the same suburbs, so you know,
that sort of stuff didn't certainly didn't compromise. Sure you'd
want to live with your mum and dad, especially if
they get on right, but they didn't. We made it
work once, and I made it work as a family.
I wasn't picking them up, yeah, at three o'clock in
the afternoon. But like a lot of us, right, like
I mean, you do we that melanitar ritin that's that
(13:04):
kind of sounds like my home.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well, I feel it's pretty standard these days. Was there
a time in your career where I mean, you don't
strike me as someone with a lot of self doubt.
But what I know about people is you know that's
not always what comes on the outside, right. So, was
there a time in your career where you suddenly went,
especially trying to get towards the top, like I don't
know if I can do this. Yeah, there's definitely sometimes
even now, it's like I've got to take this organization
(13:26):
to the next step, and it's like.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Oh, this is hard work, and what does that look like?
And I'm not naive enough to know that I have
all the answers, right I don't. So again, it comes
back to that trust and bringing people around you that
can help formulate what this organization could and should be
into the future.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I love that be where you sort of said, like
the fact that you know you've got to take it
to the next level, even though you've been doing it
for a really long time, You've got that oh how
am I going to do this? I think that's sort
of part of what I'm hearing in people that you
still have that passion, right. Oh yeah, that's critical if
you're going to be at that level, you need to
have that passion, right because imagine if you lost that,
I suppose it would fils down. Yeah, you've got to
be invested to throw a company and to take a
company where it needs to go if you're not invested
(14:09):
in that, and that comes back to some of the
sacrifices you've had to make, right, because if you're not
invested in it, people can see it. I know that
you've been in your field for a really long time, right,
you are the subject matter expert, right, and now a
lot of the time that subject matter expert who doesn't
necessarily want to be a leader becomes a leader right
in many organizations because they've been there so long and
they know everything. But it seems clear to me that
(14:31):
you identified quite early on that you wanted to specifically
be a leader, correct, Yeah, okay, so, which I think
is really critical because they are two different things. Yes,
so you might be an expert, but you also had
that passion for leadership. So can you took me through
what was it about being a leader that appealed to
you so much? You know what it comes back to
if you think about my schooling years. So again, you
would not assume that little Julie who turns up at
(14:53):
a school will be leading some part of the school
in one year, but I do. I've always taken on
a role of stepping up. And maybe that's because I'm
brutally honest, or I've range people that have kept other
people suppressed, so I just step in. And I think
that's probably where leadership has come from, taking a stand.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
It's just stepping up. Someone always has to step up,
and I always felt that, well, if I didn't, who will,
I'm sure someone else would have done.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I've always just stepped up. I thoroughly enjoy it. I
hold myself to very high account. I'm going to do something,
I'll do it. Yeah. Some I'm going to do it,
and I can't do it, I'll tell you I can't
do it. Yeah. I love that. Remember one part of
my career, I decided to step out of a leadership
role and it was in Basin City Council and I
just took on this portfolio. I just went to the CFO,
(15:42):
who's a delightful guy at the time, and I said,
can I take this on? Well, no one else wants it, okay,
And so I stepped out of a leadership role into
sort of a project cum of management role. And I said,
just need a couple of staff. So I got a
finance guy and an asset manager. So there's the three
of us. I had no idea what I was doing,
but I thought it sounds like good fun. And the
(16:03):
first day I said, right, well, I need a project plan.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Now. Of course I've read project plans, I've edited project plan,
I've never actually written one.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So I looked at the guy I can't remember his
name now with hilarious guy. I looked at him and
I said, have you ever written one of these? Went fuck? Okay?
So I rang a colleague of mine who was the
head of major projects. I forget engineer ahead of major projects.
So I rang out and I said, hey, dude, how
do I do this?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
She is, it's on the website, so elm the intranet,
you know, and it's got exactly what you put in
each one.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I went, oh, she goes just google it. So I looked.
I went, oh, it tells me everything. Oh this is fantastic.
It tells me what to do, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And we had a great project and we never really
followed it, but we did a really good job. And
the nine months were in that sort of asset portfolio
and then I went and through the Looking Glass, which
is a leadership out of Mandalizer Business School in Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And that's when I said I'm going to be a CEO.
Ah okay, And that was twenty ten, and that was
a CEO three years later. I think once you say it, yeah,
put it out there. I put it there. I've never
said it before. I just naturally bubbled to the top
and I'm going to be a CEO.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So a lot of people wouldn't say that because and it's
kind of like that, being held accountable to that, yeah, right.
You know, being accountable is also being able to make
decisions and own that decision that you make right, even
if it goes wrong. So, gus, what happens when you're
wrong on a decision right? Because you can't always be right,
Like you make a call and it's not the right call.
How do you bounce back from that?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I've been wrong so many times. I've probably been wrong
more than I've been right. But if you own it
and you make a decision based on the information that
you have at the time, the reason you're wrong, generally
this information has not been present. If I've sourced the
information that I think I need to make that decision,
and more information comes to light, then yes, I may
have made the wrong call, but I'll own it. Often
(17:48):
other people will just naturally step up and going, I've
got this, Julie, I can take it. You know, I
know what's happened. We can fix this.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You obviously operate at quite a fast pace and you're
quite driven.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Do you burn out? When I did this course, my psychologist,
they watch you and they give you lots and lots
of feedback, which is fantastic. Oh if you're ready for it.
When you're not, it's not so good. That's the first
time as an adult, I threw a tantrum. I read
this feedback and I went into my bedroom and I
(18:19):
threw myself on the bed, and I was kicking right
because I was like, how the hell have I managed
to get so far if I'm shit at everything right?
So it was brutally honest feedback. And of course then
you unpack it and you're not shit at everything right.
But of course you always see that all sort of extreme,
you know. Him and I were talking and he said,
you're incredibly focused. He said, you need to step away
(18:41):
a little bit, And I said, well, I run and
I do right, And he goes, yeah, I saw you running.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Really focused, and I went, well, I need to run faster.
He goes, do you right. So it was really interesting
the way he challenged me. Said, I saw you on
the treadmill. I saw you on the road. He said,
even you're running is so purposeful. He said, you don't
have any relaxing or downtime. Hm.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Okay, yeah, so I took a lot away from that.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Have you built in some R and R into your
life these days?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:12):
My R and R is hele and I go hiking
nice okay, right, And I used to be that.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
One that always had to be at the front. Yeah, not,
because I actually find now I've explained myself. I said, look,
I'm not at the front because I want to push
past anyone. I'm at the front because then I'm just
in my own head and I'm a real chatter in
case you haven't noticed. But I'm in my own space.
So it's actually quite healthy for me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
You know. Now I'm a bit older, I'm kind of
the one at the back, and I've resigned myself to
that fact that, you know, when I'm walking with thirty
year olds they are way faster.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I know, yeah, I know, love that all right.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I want to talk a little bit about culture, because
I've heard from a few people that healthy land and
wood is a great place to work. Why do you
think people say that. Is there sort of deliberate practices
or rituals that you put in place.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
To make sure it's that way or is it just
kind of organic? It's both. Actually, it's definitely a but
it's structurally organic. Structurally organic.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
We seek a lot of feedback from people, okay, to say, well,
what's important to you? And then obviously I can't act
on everything. You know, what might be important to someone
is to get paid and not actually work. Well, sorry,
that's not happening, right, But I hire people that are
fun my executive. I hire them based on yes, of
course they've got the skills. They don't apply for the
job if they don't have You don't apply to be
(20:31):
a CFO if you've not got a finance background. All right,
so they've got strong credentials. But then I work on
that vibe and how are we going to work for that?
And they're not many mets. I deliberately do not hire
mini meats because that's disastrous. Right, there's only room for
one or two egos in the room, right, So it's
that balance and I've failed quite a few times on that,
(20:56):
you know, like I really get that one, but when
I bring them into the dynamic, it's the sort of
forming stage. The storming and forming stage never get to norming,
and something's got to give. So look, most people are
self aware enough they'll then move on, right, or we
help them. But so from staff, I think the team one.
They're in jobs they love. You don't get into this
(21:17):
if you don't like the work right, you might come
in and out and use as a stepping stone, but
typically you've got to love the work. So if you
can foster that and make it a kind of fun place,
certainly accountable.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It's not somewhere where you come and have your own
private passion and do your own thing. You follow you know,
I'm very clear on the vision for the organization and
how we have to grow the organization, and that's the
guardrails that you need to be in. So how do
you stay connected to you But you got eighty four
people you can't be over at once. Back in the
day when we were less digital, you know, people might
always have to come through your gatekeeper, your EA to
(21:51):
get hold of you versus now is kind of all
these different tools and ways to be you know, to
be contacted. Is that something you've experienced. There's been constantly
available to everybody.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, and it's really interesting. Even more so when you
grow an organization. You can imagine when I first took
on and there was like twelve of us. Of course
they pop their heads in the door every day. Yeah yeah, yeah, right,
you pop your head out and go, oh if you
got this, what about that? So very different dynamic and
a couple of those people are still with me today actually,
And then you start growing, and then we merged, and
(22:21):
that was a big cultural change because very different organizations
and different culture. So you had to lift yourself up
a little bit more and not be so available. Of course,
those that have come with you, they're like, oh, don't
you like me anymore? Yes? I do like you, Yes
I do. But I can't be there all the time.
One thing that drives me insane is copying me in
(22:41):
therefore assuming I know, ah yeah, okay, don't do that.
So I actually have internal I have an email that
goes back going if you've copied me in assumed I've
not read this. It's gone into a different folder. If
you want me to action something, email me directly because
you get a lot of ccs otherwise.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I always make myself available to executive and I think
one of the things I did, probably a few years ago,
I seem to have pushed them out. They felt that
they had to go through in the a to make
an appointment to speak with me, and I didn't notice
it at first, and then I realized what they were doing.
They were kind of stepping back. And my mantrarh them
is you need to talk to me. You ring me?
You walk in the doors closed. It's probably because I'm
(23:20):
on the phone. I always leave my door open for me.
They can walk in anytime, ring me. Do not apologize
for needing to talk to me. What about empathy?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Do you actively practice empathy as a CEO or do
you think that becomes harder to It's a real interesting one,
the e of brave like, because I find that's probably
most people's.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
More challenging one.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
What's your honors take on where empathy sits in your
leadership style.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I don't think I'm empathetic at all bless. Yeah, this
is totally unrehearsed. But I listened to the podcasts and sorrow.
I need to know what the acronyms are for, right,
And they got to empathy and I was like, I
don't have empathy. Well, if I do, it's very deep down.
I can probably relate to a lot of things that
people are going through. I don't think if you had
(24:04):
asked my guy that I'm very empathetic. If it's putting
yourself in someone else's shoes, that I can do, okay,
But if it's throwing yourself in so as you're feeling
everything that they're feeling, and that's probably not me.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
It's an interesting one because I think people's understanding of
what it is it differs, right, Whereas I very much
see it as the ability to hold the space for
someone's feelings, right. I don't think it means you have
to take at all. Yeah, And I think that's the
art of empathy, right, because then you're bordering over with sympathy,
right when you're pouring yourself into like you know, you're
getting sad with them. It's holding that space. It's being
(24:40):
able to have an uncomfortable like sitting with someone's uncomfortable emotions.
That to me is kind of what empathy is as
well as you know, seeing things from their perspective and
staying out of judgment and doing that. And from what
I've heard from you today, actually think you do stay
out of judgment really well, which I think is a
part of it. But I think empathy is that caring
soft you know what I mean, more softer skill that
people are sort of and I think why it's such
(25:01):
a hard one to harness because especially when you're in
a very senior role and you make a lot of
the big decisions, it's like, is there a room for
that softness? I strongly think that there is, But I
think you've actually got it. So maybe it's more about
the understanding of empathy for people and seeing where it sits.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
There's so much going on around you. If you cared
for everything that happened, yea, you just not get shit done. Right.
We are who we are the way we're born.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
It's being aware of it, right, So you being aware
that maybe doesn't come naturally to me to be like that.
It's working with somebody who's going to help you maybe
lean into that space a bit more so. I think
that's great. There's like a method of, you know, making
it happen. So let me be clear, that's never for me.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
What it's about.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It's about being aware of rasterates and weaknesses are in
those areas.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I've always made sure all through my career, even as
your sort of middle management that part of my team,
there's someone that actually has probably the other scale of
caring and I rely on them.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I always like to sort of finish on a bit
of a different questions. I think I'm going to ask
you this one, Julie. What's an opportunity you said no
to in the past that you would say yes to today?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I was heading off overseas.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
We were up overseas, and then I settled in Australia,
and then I was going to go overseas again with
some friends, and I said no because I've focused on
a career and I thought, I know, I need to
stay here and focus.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
I think if I had the chance, but then my
life would be totally different, right, I would have gone.
The reason for saying no was, I know it was
a career, but I think I just wanted to stop
for a while.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, yeah, what would be the other job?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I might find you in. What else would Julie be
doing now? Definitely in fitness. Fitness. I would love to
lead a fitness studio. There's two kind of little things
that I think I would be when I finish the
Julie I am now. One is definitely influencing. It's health
and well being. You know, I'm not a tiny little
(26:52):
girl or anything, but I'm strong and I believe in
women need to be strong mentally and physically, and so
that to me is really important. And the other thing,
which I reckon to be really really cool is a
matre d at a really nice restaurant. Why. I don't know.
I just think it's you're talking with customers, you're still
dealing with staff, and I don't mind staff issues. The
people right, great food.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I would definitely learn how to be a similiar you know,
I love wine and it'd be great if I could
talk about.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It as well. Yeah, So love that.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So food and fitness, you know, whining and exercising it.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Love that. Just thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
You have been nothing but brave and honest and open
on this podcast, which is fantastic because it's all about
people seeing that you consider these roles and still be
incredibly human and aware of who you are, and it's
been a joy. So thank you, Julie, thank you so much.
It's been an absolute delight.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Thank you. Awesome
Appoche Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Happy people create happy businesses, true emotionally intelligent leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I've picked up vomit once on our about our fourth flight,
and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
I can do it now.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
We will be joined by culture and leadership.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us
the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. Today I am
joined by CEO of Healthy Land and Water, Julie McClellan.
Healthy Land and Water is the peak environmental group for
Southeast Queensland. For over twenty years, it's been dedicated to
investing in and leading initiatives to build the prosperity, livability
(00:52):
and sustainability of our future region. Julie has held this
role since its inception in twenty thirteen. As an accomplished
executive with significant leadership and general management experience.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
She has over eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Years as CEO with a focus on creating profit for purpose.
An expert in waterway management, governance, strategy, risk and company finance.
Prior to a role at Healthy Land, and water. Julie
held senior executive positions in local government spanning nearly thirty years,
and was responsible for portfolios including research and business development, innovation,
service delivery, and design.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Welcome, Julie, Thanks you to have you in the studio now. Julie.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
One of the first things I read about you, because
I always do my little bit of digging in research,
was around your core values, which, as I read you
define as honesty, trust, justice, and humor. Have these been
core values of yours since you were young and why
they're so important to you?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Definitely? Humor and natural justice have been very strong values
of mine since I was young. I've always been one
to go in and fight for someone else, probably to
my detriment on many occasions. Okay, but yeah, It's definitely
been part of my core values. Absolutely, and I've always
been probably too honest, probably for my own good coming
up through my career. But okay, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Is there a moment that you sort of sticks out
to you when you think that, well, it's probably a
mixture of.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
If I think about it now, when I talk about
natural justice and it's defending other people. I can't stand bullies,
and so I'll take them on. I've never been bullied
at school because I just don't give them airtime, you know.
So if I see other people being bullied, yeah, very
strong values there, like I'll take them on. Yeah, I
love that. And so does that sort of follow through
(02:33):
for you?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Now? I guess at work, like, how does that play
into not tolerating that kind of behavior at work?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You lead from the top, right, so what people see
is generally what in my experience, people will follow. So
I don't tolerate it at all in the workplace. I
grew up all around the world and I moved. I
think by the time I was in grade eleven, I'd
been to twelve or thirteen different schools, so we were
never in one place for more than a year as
(02:59):
a kid. So you have to go in and make
new friends very quickly. You got to rely on your humor, right, yeahha,
it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, so God, there's a lot of moving around.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It was a lot of moving around. Can I ask
why was that? Dad engineer? We were the original ten
pound poms, you know. But we went to South Africa
and they worked on power stations, and so you do
a year or so and then move and it was
just a very dynamic environment. We just kept moving a lot.
You spent a lot of time in South Africa. Yeah, yeah, ah,
how was that? Well? I loved it, but in hindsight,
(03:35):
I mean that's when apartheid, yeah, was in and again
I could never understand why you would have a white
bench and a black bench.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I just couldn't fathom it. So and then we went
back to the UK, and then we came out to
Australia and moved around Australia a bit too.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I'm seeing some synergies here now with some stuff I've
read about your involvement and things like the rap that
you guys have done as well, So experiencing that at
a young age, like and then coming back to Australia, like,
how is it influenced I guess your passion around culture
and diversity.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I probably never dwelled on
it because it was just one of those parts of
my life where I just couldn't understand. I mean I
was a kid, right, and it just defied logic to me,
of course, that the color of your skin can determine
who you are and what your role is in society.
And you know, apparently you're not smart or it's just
(04:24):
never I've never understood it. And when we went back
to the UK, my mum was very adamant that we
didn't embrace apartheid, right, so even though she were white
and we're English, and yes we had staff, but they
were part of the family. My brother was brought up
by nanny right because mum was working, so they were
very much part of our family. We never saw I
(04:46):
didn't see them as employees. They lived with us, and
that was it. We went back to the UK and
it's fine obviously that it's quite a mixed race in England.
And my mum took my sister to the doctor. Now
my sister's five years younger than me, and the doctor
was a black doctor and Mom went in, took her
in't think much of it, and my sister turned around
(05:06):
to my mum and she said, she can't be a doctor,
she's black. My mum was mortified. So my sister had
been quite impacted, and Mom said, well she's a doctor
and we are staying. And Mom's just like, I'm so sorry,
like she said, I didn't realize my daughter was like this,
you know, And it was an interesting yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
That you're very passionate about that space. And so you
guys have launched a wrap yes where you're at And
I think that when I read that and then I
hear that's where you grew up, there would have been
some impact. I'm sure, whether you picked up on it
or not, right, that's right, wanting to subconscious yeah, subconscious, yeah, absolutely.
I mean we are defined by every event in our life, right,
So only because you've asked me that question, that's made
(05:47):
me think, well, obviously that did define me. Yeah, I
think you know, for me, it's that adversity, right that
you face as a young person, and you've just did
changing many of my schools, living in very very different cultures,
experiencing different parenting.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You know, that does change somebody.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And I think that from what I've seen, a lot
of the most sort of empathetic CEOs have that story
of adversity where they've had to kind of rise above
it or work through it. So I will come to
resilience because it's a big one for me in my
brave But I wanted to just touch on the trust
part of the value that you mentioned, right, because I
love that trust. Isn't there right any foundation of any
good team. I'm kind of fascinated in this idea of
(06:24):
fast tracking trust, Like I'm always looking for almost like
hacks of how can you get trust as quickly as possible? Right?
That is where you can get more out of people. So,
given it's one of your values, what's your approach to
building trust with people? Like, do you have an approach
like to do it quickly?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Or you know, if you look at my values, then honesty.
So I think if you're honest, you will build trust.
What you see is what you get. I have no
hidden agenda. Yeah, I can play the game if I
have to. I'm still kind of full frontal, you know,
what's the point like really pissing around? Like seriously, you
can waste so much energy. So if you're going to
build trust, you build it quick and fast. However, the
(07:01):
flip side of that, if I don't trust you or
you don't trust me, then just move on. If you
don't connect and you're not going to work, give you
would give trust upfront person versus you have to don it.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I am until you abuse that trust, yeah, I
shut down. But I hardly agree that approach. I think
it's the faster way to go about them waiting for
everyone to earn it. So, obviously, as you've listened to
some of the podcasts, I do interview a lot of
female CEOs and pretty much every single one of them
has had to face some kind of challenge to get
where they are, particularly being a female, right all of them. So,
(07:33):
what has been your greatest challenge in being a female
leader or getting to where you've gotten order to teach you?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So, if you think about how long I've been working therefore,
you know, obviously I was coming up in the eighties
and starting my career. That was tough. I worked in
the mining industry initially, I'm a chemist, industrial chemist. As
I came up through my career, I was often seen
as the token woman and you really shouldn't have a voice.
They say that. That doesn't rest too well with me.
(08:00):
I didn't believe I was a token woman. I thought
I'd earned my right to be at that table. These
other conversations that happened before you get in the room.
So you get in the room and you're like, right,
they're gonna value what I have to say. Obviously I'm
here for that, And it's gone off on a completely
different tangent you're sort of like, that's not what this
agenda was about. It was a very tough boys club
you were there for probably looks. I've run out of
(08:21):
fingers to count how many times I've been asked someone
or just say, well, should we here just have sex? Oh?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No, yeah no, And I'm like, sorry, I was not
expecting you to say that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Really, how did you push through that? It's an interesting
question because I just in my mind was just like,
fuck off.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
There have been times in my career where I know
I was spoken to in a way that was inappropriate.
On reflection, now, being older, I've gone whoa like, I
would not accept that now, Whereas my approach when I
was younger and coming up the ranks was to almost
use humor and laugh it off, and I would tell
people I don't care that much. But as I get older,
(09:00):
I wonder if that was actually the truth, or was
that that didn't know how to deal with it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's probably a bit of both, right, Like, I mean,
you don't know how to deal with it. But it's
interesting because I talked to other colleagues of mine my
sort of age, you know, late fifties, early sixties, and
there's not one that hasn't had an experience like that
when I first started, even with Brisbane Water. So this
is here, the sewage treatment plants, women didn't go on them.
(09:25):
There were no female toilets on some of the old ones,
so you'd have to go to the men's toilet, and
boy did you feel intimidated with the posters on the wall?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Right, And that was the late eighties, But it doesn't
think it speaks a lot to the fact that I've
had this conversation with few people where I see women
going up the ranks and leadership roles having to adopt
more masculine style in order to survive right or to
be taken seriously. Well, I can see why, yeah, because
using your feminine side in those moments pre didn't serve
you very well.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
They don't. You are still feminine, like, you're still genuine,
but you do have to know often say I've got
more balls than the rest of you, you know, or
I can piss her at the wall, so let's just
keep going, shall we. And it's very much how you
deal with someone. I would never ever deal with staff
or people are earning my trust like that, but I
have had to deal with some quite bullish sort of
(10:16):
men that sort of really stand up and exert their
height and their power over you, and I just go
to the other side of the desk so it doesn't
look like I'm looking up so much, you know, and yeah,
generally I've come out on top. Well, thank you for shen.
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So from what I've heard, like through your storyan like
we've grown up and what's happening with challenges, it feels
like there might have been some sacrifices you've had to
make along the way to get to where you are.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Would you say that or yeah, you know the saying
you can have it all or you can't, right, you
can't have it all. I've got four children between my
wife and I, so we are a blended family. From
when the youngest, Andrew, was two and a half, so
we had a two year old, a three year old,
a four year old, and a five year old. When
we got together, we both had executive careers. We were
(11:02):
both trying to break through the glass ceiling for one
of a better word, So you had to be that
little bit better, You had to work that little bit
longer to get a career progression. Many times I've had
to go down or sideways to go up. You don't
necessarily get that up, which is great, makes you're a
lot more all rounded, but at the time it's like, damn,
(11:22):
I got to take less money out just to try
and get across. Now, obviously, if you're good you do that,
you get noticed quicker and you move up. So I
wouldn't say it's a hard chip. Sometimes you just have
to learn stuff that you just don't know the sacrifices.
I was not a stay at home mum, never have been.
That was my choice. If you take too long out
of the workforce, you too far behind, and hopefully things
(11:42):
are changing having flexible work conditions and that we didn't
have that. You went to work and you were at work,
you know, and if you weren't at work, that meant
you were on leave. I have four amazing adult children.
They are incredibly resilient, know their mind. Do they come
and see mummy every day? No, because that wasn't the
(12:03):
family we brought up. So you do make such Do.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
You look at that length, do you that you weren't
around as much? Well, I wasn't around as much. I
mean every night. Of course, it was kind of militant.
You know, I'd walk in at six thirty in bang
bang Adena and eat, eat, wash dishes, chat chat chat,
Have you done your homework?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I was not a mum who ever made a diorama.
In fact, I struggled to smell it. And I don't
know why we have to make them. But anyway, my
kids did all their own homework. They did every bit
of school work that went back to school was theirs,
not mine. Yeah, I mean I was very onto their education,
so we're betied them if they weren't getting quite good grades.
I have a fantastic relationship with their father. We stayed
(12:43):
living very close in the same suburbs, so you know,
that sort of stuff didn't certainly didn't compromise. Sure you'd
want to live with your mum and dad, especially if
they get on right, but they didn't. We made it
work once, and I made it work as a family.
I wasn't picking them up, yeah, at three o'clock in
the afternoon. But like a lot of us, right, like
I mean, you do we that melanitar ritin that's that
(13:04):
kind of sounds like my home.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well, I feel it's pretty standard these days. Was there
a time in your career where I mean, you don't
strike me as someone with a lot of self doubt.
But what I know about people is you know that's
not always what comes on the outside, right. So, was
there a time in your career where you suddenly went,
especially trying to get towards the top, like I don't
know if I can do this. Yeah, there's definitely sometimes
even now, it's like I've got to take this organization
(13:26):
to the next step, and it's like.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Oh, this is hard work, and what does that look like?
And I'm not naive enough to know that I have
all the answers, right I don't. So again, it comes
back to that trust and bringing people around you that
can help formulate what this organization could and should be
into the future.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I love that be where you sort of said, like
the fact that you know you've got to take it
to the next level, even though you've been doing it
for a really long time, You've got that oh how
am I going to do this? I think that's sort
of part of what I'm hearing in people that you
still have that passion, right. Oh yeah, that's critical if
you're going to be at that level, you need to
have that passion, right because imagine if you lost that,
I suppose it would fils down. Yeah, you've got to
be invested to throw a company and to take a
company where it needs to go if you're not invested
(14:09):
in that, and that comes back to some of the
sacrifices you've had to make, right, because if you're not
invested in it, people can see it. I know that
you've been in your field for a really long time, right,
you are the subject matter expert, right, and now a
lot of the time that subject matter expert who doesn't
necessarily want to be a leader becomes a leader right
in many organizations because they've been there so long and
they know everything. But it seems clear to me that
(14:31):
you identified quite early on that you wanted to specifically
be a leader, correct, Yeah, okay, so, which I think
is really critical because they are two different things. Yes,
so you might be an expert, but you also had
that passion for leadership. So can you took me through
what was it about being a leader that appealed to
you so much? You know what it comes back to
if you think about my schooling years. So again, you
would not assume that little Julie who turns up at
(14:53):
a school will be leading some part of the school
in one year, but I do. I've always taken on
a role of stepping up. And maybe that's because I'm
brutally honest, or I've range people that have kept other
people suppressed, so I just step in. And I think
that's probably where leadership has come from, taking a stand.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
It's just stepping up. Someone always has to step up,
and I always felt that, well, if I didn't, who will,
I'm sure someone else would have done.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I've always just stepped up. I thoroughly enjoy it. I
hold myself to very high account. I'm going to do something,
I'll do it. Yeah. Some I'm going to do it,
and I can't do it, I'll tell you I can't
do it. Yeah. I love that. Remember one part of
my career, I decided to step out of a leadership
role and it was in Basin City Council and I
just took on this portfolio. I just went to the CFO,
(15:42):
who's a delightful guy at the time, and I said,
can I take this on? Well, no one else wants it, okay,
And so I stepped out of a leadership role into
sort of a project cum of management role. And I said,
just need a couple of staff. So I got a
finance guy and an asset manager. So there's the three
of us. I had no idea what I was doing,
but I thought it sounds like good fun. And the
(16:03):
first day I said, right, well, I need a project plan.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Now. Of course I've read project plans, I've edited project plan,
I've never actually written one.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So I looked at the guy I can't remember his
name now with hilarious guy. I looked at him and
I said, have you ever written one of these? Went fuck? Okay?
So I rang a colleague of mine who was the
head of major projects. I forget engineer ahead of major projects.
So I rang out and I said, hey, dude, how
do I do this?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
She is, it's on the website, so elm the intranet,
you know, and it's got exactly what you put in
each one.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I went, oh, she goes just google it. So I looked.
I went, oh, it tells me everything. Oh this is fantastic.
It tells me what to do, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And we had a great project and we never really
followed it, but we did a really good job. And
the nine months were in that sort of asset portfolio
and then I went and through the Looking Glass, which
is a leadership out of Mandalizer Business School in Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And that's when I said I'm going to be a CEO.
Ah okay, And that was twenty ten, and that was
a CEO three years later. I think once you say it, yeah,
put it out there. I put it there. I've never
said it before. I just naturally bubbled to the top
and I'm going to be a CEO.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So a lot of people wouldn't say that because and it's
kind of like that, being held accountable to that, yeah, right.
You know, being accountable is also being able to make
decisions and own that decision that you make right, even
if it goes wrong. So, gus, what happens when you're
wrong on a decision right? Because you can't always be right,
Like you make a call and it's not the right call.
How do you bounce back from that?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I've been wrong so many times. I've probably been wrong
more than I've been right. But if you own it
and you make a decision based on the information that
you have at the time, the reason you're wrong, generally
this information has not been present. If I've sourced the
information that I think I need to make that decision,
and more information comes to light, then yes, I may
have made the wrong call, but I'll own it. Often
(17:48):
other people will just naturally step up and going, I've
got this, Julie, I can take it. You know, I
know what's happened. We can fix this.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
You obviously operate at quite a fast pace and you're
quite driven.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Do you burn out? When I did this course, my psychologist,
they watch you and they give you lots and lots
of feedback, which is fantastic. Oh if you're ready for it.
When you're not, it's not so good. That's the first
time as an adult, I threw a tantrum. I read
this feedback and I went into my bedroom and I
(18:19):
threw myself on the bed, and I was kicking right
because I was like, how the hell have I managed
to get so far if I'm shit at everything right?
So it was brutally honest feedback. And of course then
you unpack it and you're not shit at everything right.
But of course you always see that all sort of extreme,
you know. Him and I were talking and he said,
you're incredibly focused. He said, you need to step away
(18:41):
a little bit, And I said, well, I run and
I do right, And he goes, yeah, I saw you running.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Really focused, and I went, well, I need to run faster.
He goes, do you right. So it was really interesting
the way he challenged me. Said, I saw you on
the treadmill. I saw you on the road. He said,
even you're running is so purposeful. He said, you don't
have any relaxing or downtime. Hm.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Okay, yeah, so I took a lot away from that.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Have you built in some R and R into your
life these days?
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:12):
My R and R is hele and I go hiking
nice okay, right, And I used to be that.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
One that always had to be at the front. Yeah, not,
because I actually find now I've explained myself. I said, look,
I'm not at the front because I want to push
past anyone. I'm at the front because then I'm just
in my own head and I'm a real chatter in
case you haven't noticed. But I'm in my own space.
So it's actually quite healthy for me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
You know. Now I'm a bit older, I'm kind of
the one at the back, and I've resigned myself to
that fact that, you know, when I'm walking with thirty
year olds they are way faster.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I know, yeah, I know, love that all right.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I want to talk a little bit about culture, because
I've heard from a few people that healthy land and
wood is a great place to work. Why do you
think people say that. Is there sort of deliberate practices
or rituals that you put in place.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
To make sure it's that way or is it just
kind of organic? It's both. Actually, it's definitely a but
it's structurally organic. Structurally organic.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
We seek a lot of feedback from people, okay, to say, well,
what's important to you? And then obviously I can't act
on everything. You know, what might be important to someone
is to get paid and not actually work. Well, sorry,
that's not happening, right, But I hire people that are
fun my executive. I hire them based on yes, of
course they've got the skills. They don't apply for the
job if they don't have You don't apply to be
(20:31):
a CFO if you've not got a finance background. All right,
so they've got strong credentials. But then I work on
that vibe and how are we going to work for that?
And they're not many mets. I deliberately do not hire
mini meats because that's disastrous. Right, there's only room for
one or two egos in the room, right, So it's
that balance and I've failed quite a few times on that,
(20:56):
you know, like I really get that one, but when
I bring them into the dynamic, it's the sort of
forming stage. The storming and forming stage never get to norming,
and something's got to give. So look, most people are
self aware enough they'll then move on, right, or we
help them. But so from staff, I think the team one.
They're in jobs they love. You don't get into this
(21:17):
if you don't like the work right, you might come
in and out and use as a stepping stone, but
typically you've got to love the work. So if you
can foster that and make it a kind of fun place,
certainly accountable.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It's not somewhere where you come and have your own
private passion and do your own thing. You follow you know,
I'm very clear on the vision for the organization and
how we have to grow the organization, and that's the
guardrails that you need to be in. So how do
you stay connected to you But you got eighty four
people you can't be over at once. Back in the
day when we were less digital, you know, people might
always have to come through your gatekeeper, your EA to
(21:51):
get hold of you versus now is kind of all
these different tools and ways to be you know, to
be contacted. Is that something you've experienced. There's been constantly
available to everybody.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, and it's really interesting. Even more so when you
grow an organization. You can imagine when I first took
on and there was like twelve of us. Of course
they pop their heads in the door every day. Yeah yeah, yeah, right,
you pop your head out and go, oh if you
got this, what about that? So very different dynamic and
a couple of those people are still with me today actually,
And then you start growing, and then we merged, and
(22:21):
that was a big cultural change because very different organizations
and different culture. So you had to lift yourself up
a little bit more and not be so available. Of course,
those that have come with you, they're like, oh, don't
you like me anymore? Yes? I do like you, Yes
I do. But I can't be there all the time.
One thing that drives me insane is copying me in
(22:41):
therefore assuming I know, ah yeah, okay, don't do that.
So I actually have internal I have an email that
goes back going if you've copied me in assumed I've
not read this. It's gone into a different folder. If
you want me to action something, email me directly because
you get a lot of ccs otherwise.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I always make myself available to executive and I think
one of the things I did, probably a few years ago,
I seem to have pushed them out. They felt that
they had to go through in the a to make
an appointment to speak with me, and I didn't notice
it at first, and then I realized what they were doing.
They were kind of stepping back. And my mantrarh them
is you need to talk to me. You ring me?
You walk in the doors closed. It's probably because I'm
(23:20):
on the phone. I always leave my door open for me.
They can walk in anytime, ring me. Do not apologize
for needing to talk to me. What about empathy?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Do you actively practice empathy as a CEO or do
you think that becomes harder to It's a real interesting one,
the e of brave like, because I find that's probably
most people's.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
More challenging one.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
What's your honors take on where empathy sits in your
leadership style.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I don't think I'm empathetic at all bless. Yeah, this
is totally unrehearsed. But I listened to the podcasts and sorrow.
I need to know what the acronyms are for, right,
And they got to empathy and I was like, I
don't have empathy. Well, if I do, it's very deep down.
I can probably relate to a lot of things that
people are going through. I don't think if you had
(24:04):
asked my guy that I'm very empathetic. If it's putting
yourself in someone else's shoes, that I can do, okay,
But if it's throwing yourself in so as you're feeling
everything that they're feeling, and that's probably not me.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
It's an interesting one because I think people's understanding of
what it is it differs, right, Whereas I very much
see it as the ability to hold the space for
someone's feelings, right. I don't think it means you have
to take at all. Yeah, And I think that's the
art of empathy, right, because then you're bordering over with sympathy,
right when you're pouring yourself into like you know, you're
getting sad with them. It's holding that space. It's being
(24:40):
able to have an uncomfortable like sitting with someone's uncomfortable emotions.
That to me is kind of what empathy is as
well as you know, seeing things from their perspective and
staying out of judgment and doing that. And from what
I've heard from you today, actually think you do stay
out of judgment really well, which I think is a
part of it. But I think empathy is that caring
soft you know what I mean, more softer skill that
people are sort of and I think why it's such
(25:01):
a hard one to harness because especially when you're in
a very senior role and you make a lot of
the big decisions, it's like, is there a room for
that softness? I strongly think that there is, But I
think you've actually got it. So maybe it's more about
the understanding of empathy for people and seeing where it sits.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
There's so much going on around you. If you cared
for everything that happened, yea, you just not get shit done. Right.
We are who we are the way we're born.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
It's being aware of it, right, So you being aware
that maybe doesn't come naturally to me to be like that.
It's working with somebody who's going to help you maybe
lean into that space a bit more so. I think
that's great. There's like a method of, you know, making
it happen. So let me be clear, that's never for me.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
What it's about.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It's about being aware of rasterates and weaknesses are in
those areas.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I've always made sure all through my career, even as
your sort of middle management that part of my team,
there's someone that actually has probably the other scale of
caring and I rely on them.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I always like to sort of finish on a bit
of a different questions. I think I'm going to ask
you this one, Julie. What's an opportunity you said no
to in the past that you would say yes to today?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I was heading off overseas.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
We were up overseas, and then I settled in Australia,
and then I was going to go overseas again with
some friends, and I said no because I've focused on
a career and I thought, I know, I need to
stay here and focus.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
I think if I had the chance, but then my
life would be totally different, right, I would have gone.
The reason for saying no was, I know it was
a career, but I think I just wanted to stop
for a while.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, yeah, what would be the other job?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I might find you in. What else would Julie be
doing now? Definitely in fitness. Fitness. I would love to
lead a fitness studio. There's two kind of little things
that I think I would be when I finish the
Julie I am now. One is definitely influencing. It's health
and well being. You know, I'm not a tiny little
(26:52):
girl or anything, but I'm strong and I believe in
women need to be strong mentally and physically, and so
that to me is really important. And the other thing,
which I reckon to be really really cool is a
matre d at a really nice restaurant. Why. I don't know.
I just think it's you're talking with customers, you're still
dealing with staff, and I don't mind staff issues. The
people right, great food.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
I would definitely learn how to be a similiar you know,
I love wine and it'd be great if I could
talk about.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It as well. Yeah, So love that.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So food and fitness, you know, whining and exercising it.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Love that. Just thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
You have been nothing but brave and honest and open
on this podcast, which is fantastic because it's all about
people seeing that you consider these roles and still be
incredibly human and aware of who you are, and it's
been a joy. So thank you, Julie, thank you so much.
It's been an absolute delight.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Thank you. Awesome
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