December 24, 2025 • 45 mins
This summer we are curating your Cancelled podcast playlist, bringing you the insanely popular and always funny - Brutally Honest Reviews from our friends on The Spill.
The White Lotus is over for another season which means it’s time for a Brutally Honest Review!
In this episode we talk about the casting choice the creators were most nervous about, the important scenes that were cut and the best and worst moments from the entire season.
We also say what no one else would about that viral incest scene, talk about the most misunderstood storyline in the series and admit we love the most problematic character who appeared on screen.
From hidden details in the final scene to how the cast really behaved off camera, this is The White Lotus review you’ve been waiting for.
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Hosts: Laura Brodnik & Em Vernem
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a mum of mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and Waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello, it is Jesse here,
and I'm dropping in to tell you that this summer
we are curating a very special podcast playlist for you.
We are bringing you the insanely popular and always funny,
brutally honest reviews from our friends on the Spill, from
(00:38):
the top TV shows of the year, to the biggest
movies of twenty twenty five which.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
You may have only just had the chance to watch.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And of course some classics. The Spill gives you completely
unfiltered and real takes, as well as easter eggs and
behind the scenes gossip. This is your summer listening sorted
and if you are looking for more to listen to,
if you are just binging podcast this holiday season, every
Muma Mea podcast is curating your summer listening right across
(01:06):
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
there's something for everyone. There is a link in our show.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Notes from Momma Mia. Welcome to the Spill, your daily
pop culture fix.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I'm em Vernon and I'm Laura Brodnick and God at
love these episodes.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
We are doing a brutally honest review of this, So
if you're confused this was this season's theme song. Yes,
we have talked about how it's a bit different to
the last two seasons. That's a huge feud about it,
and then you can read, so do that in your
(01:50):
own time, because we are doing a briarly honest review
of season three of The White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, and if you're new to our brudly honest review series,
then this is the episode where we deep dive on
the biggest movie or TV show that has just come
out this week. So there are going to be spoilers galore.
But also, if you've gotten to this point of the
week and you don't know how The White Loatue ends,
you must just be living in like a cave under
a mountain surrounded by cement, because there's no way, there's
(02:20):
no way to hide from that. But yes, we're gonna
be going deep on spoilers, behind the scenes facts, some
unpopular opinions on how the show ended and how the
characters worked, all that sort of stuff. We haven't discussed
anything yet, so with each other's opinions, are going to
be a surprise, So that's all we're getting into. But yeah,
so this season of The White Lotus was set in Thailand.
There was almost like a bit of a bidding war
(02:40):
between a lot of countries of where The White Loatus
would be set because a lot of countries were scouted
for different sets and locations. Thailand sort of gave them
like quite a big tax break and also offered some
incentive through their tourism partners. Even with that, though, it
still ended up being the most expensive season of The
White Lotus yet interesting, which I find yet very interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Maybe next season we can do like White Lotus and
Barron Bay.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That would be the most expensive season. Also, you're going
to be so expensive for the cast, because Walter Goggins,
who plays Rick, was saying that he didn't realize how
expensive it would for him to be personally on The
White Lotus because they obviously fly you there to shoot
the show, and they pay for your hotel room because
you live in the hotel that you filled the show at,
but the cars have to pay for all their incidental
So at the end of like the first month of filming,
(03:26):
they all got their room bills and he was like, literally,
I'm losing money because he got too many like salted
cashews and things and didn't realize how expensive they were.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
So funny and they were all on the same salary
and they were all non negotiable salaries.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Well exactly, that's what Mike White the creator sets up
when he made the White Loaders, is that every single
person has to audition and then they all also paid
the same salary. And can you guess who had a
problem with that MESSI behind the scenes best friend Jason
Isaacs was Jason, out of everyone there, you're not getting
(04:01):
paid more? He thought, Oh no, So if you miss
yesterday's episode, we were talking about some of the fears
that have happened behind the White Loaders because we can't
get into this man. He would he would love to
tell you everything that happened. So we talked yesterday about
how he was sort of talking about feuds and making
and he's been very messy behind the scenes. But he
(04:21):
was saying that he found it very strange that he
had to audition because he said, look, I don't want
to have.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Not seen all eight Harry Potter films.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
That's pretty much what he said, because he said, look,
I don't want to get too big for my boots.
But really, Mike, I have to meet with a casting director.
I walked through Times Square and my face was on
like five billboards talking about Harry Potter Days obviously. So anyway,
what's also the interesting thing about this third season of
The White Lotus is that Mike White has said the
first season was to highlight money and wealth. The second
(04:52):
season was to highlight sex and like the power it
can give and how it can shape relationships and money
and wealth. Yes, exactly, I mean that's just always a given.
And this third season was meant to be a kind
of a satirical look at spirituality. But also how like,
especially like white Western people can go like take over
Eastern religion, take the wrong message for her and make
(05:13):
it for themselves, which we particularly see with I think
the Rightliff family, but all of them to an extent.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, I really like that messaging. Because as I was
reading a lot of reviews on this and largely a
lot of people don't like this season. Yeah, personally, it
was my favorite season of all three. Yeahs three to
two one, oh.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Mine's two one three.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
So like the other girls, I hate you, this might
be a very unpopular opiegon but.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, this is a safe space only die hard spillers
listen to it.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I was looking on socials. A lot of people were
quite vocal about how much they don't like this season,
and I think that's mainly because this season is so
reflective of a particular class in society that's also an
achievable class. And exactly what you said. Season one was
about money and wealth. That was a class that I
feel like was so unachievable. But this class of people
(06:05):
going to resorts in Thailand still so expensive. You still
have to have a certain amount of privilege to be
able to do that, but people can still do that. Yeah,
And I think a lot of people who watched the
season could see some certain reflections of themselves and just
hated it.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
This is why I'm just gonna say, a lot of
white millennial women like me get really angry at shows
like Emily in Paris or Sex and the City or
the Ball type because it's like it's too close to home.
The mirror is too close to these women that you hate,
like it's me. I also just think on that, just
to touch on sort of like a lot of people
who didn't like this season, or who thought it was
really anti climactic. A lot of the criticism was anti climactic,
(06:43):
too slow, and the finale was unsatisfying because they thought
it was too many loose threads. And I thought a
lot about that. Obviously, there were some storylines that feel
like they need more attention, or you know, some areas
where you think, oh, I feel like they dropped the
ball there. But I think overall, people are just watching
the show the wrong way at the moment, because they're
watching it like it's this big murder mystery with all
(07:03):
these secret clues and every single scene has something hid
in the background. It all means to you like everyone's
watching like their detective. But it's not a murder mystery.
It's a character study. And I think with the first season,
no one knew what to expect, and this thing that
was made during a pandemic and the cast were locked
away and it just came on to our screens. We
just watched it that way and we were just so
into all these different character dynamics. And season two, the
(07:27):
mystery heated up a little bit. But season three, everyone
came in being like, I'm going to solve the mystery
in the first episode, and it's like, it's not about that.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, and it's never a mystery, like you kind of
figure it out like as it's going.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
The best thing about when this series first came out
is that they did it so well with season one,
where you completely forget that someone's actually dead, like one
of the characters like someone's dead, and then because they
stuck with that theme for season two, it felt like
it was the ongoing thing that only everyone cared about.
So after every episode of season three, instead of what
we were doing for the last two seasons, where we
(08:01):
were diving in deep into each character and like what
they wanted and their floors and their secrets, every single episode,
we were just like, oh, I wonder if that dead,
like if they're the person who, which is really annoying,
I agree.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Which I think also a lot of people have just
missed a lot of the not everyone, but maybe just
people who were screaming the loudest online, which is always
the case. I guess people have missed a lot more
of the nuances and the character moments, and also just
the freedom that comes with having a show where you
can just let the characters go for a little bit.
I got to interview a few of the cast when
they're in Australia, and Leslie Bier, who plays Kate, who's
one of the three blonde best friends, was saying that
(08:35):
on the first day of filming, because they went to
film first the women, they were just racing through all
of their pages and scenes trying to like get it done,
like we're doing this rarah. And then Mike White had
to come over and be like, Okay, stop, do it
all again, because you guys are not like you in
your characters. You're not looking at the material properly. He's like,
it's about how you look at each other. It's about
like the silence. It's about like capturing one of your
(08:57):
faces in the background, and that's what we're going to do.
So they went back and refilmed everything so good, the
nuance of like how they're looking or what they're not
saying and all that sort of stuff. And I think
they were saying that happened with a lot of the characters.
It was about those so kind of meander moments. And
also Mike White was writing a lot of the scripts,
like just before they started filming, like he's still moving
(09:19):
things and you know, taking things out and that sort
of stuff. So if you're still writing when you're about
to film, it can't be that intricative, you know, like
the color of the curtains means this. And also so
much ended up on the cutting room floor, like whole storylines,
whole scenes, Like we're really only seeing a snippet of
the story. But you've got to go with that.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
You have to go with that.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Okay. So now we've just got all our grievances out
of it out of the way, getting onto a different
character group. So I think I have to start with
the storyline that started in season one, and that is
Natasha Rothwell's character of Belinda Lindsay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
She was the SPA manager from The White Lotus season
one in Hawaii, we saw her pop up again in Thailand.
She's on like a work exchange and it's kind of
says like she's living her best life as much as
she can because she's on a holiday. To an extent,
we're also getting all these different skills and she's having
just lovely time. Until Greg John Greese, who has been
(10:14):
in every season The White Loatus so far, I would
almost just love that is like every single White Lotus.
Because here's the big issue that everyone has with Greg.
Now Gary Hunt in the show, She's season, but he's
Greg to Gary, I want to do more. This is
the issue people have with him. People aren't that angry
(10:35):
that he had Tanya Jennifer Coolige's character killed. They're angry
that he's stupid enough to commit a murder pretty much
connected to a White Lotus. And he had his wife killed,
who was one of the White Lotuses, like highest tier
returning members. And then he goes into hiding while he's
wanted for questioning in relation to her mysterious death, and
(10:56):
he hides out at another White Lotus like up the Hill,
but he goes down to the White Lotus every night.
That's a terrible hiding spot. But it also is like
the arrogance of like a rich white man.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
I think it.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Also shows that like every character in The White Lotus
is so unlikable, Like every single one of them. It's
like if they were a person in real life, you know,
you would absolutely hate that person. And it also shows
that with these people, which we actually do see in
Belinda's character as the season goes on, is actually kind
of replicates Greg in a way where like, once you
(11:28):
get so much money, you just kind of like turn
into a person that you hated and you just like
kind of lose like all senses. Like he doesn't think, right,
he's just got so much money that he doesn't need
to think.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah exactly, Yeah, you kind of forget that you're not
untouchable because of the money does feel like such a
big buffer and like to an extent, it is. It's
interesting you brought that up about her changing her personality
almost because well, first of all, he also said that
he came up with season three when he was hospitalized
for bronchitis and he was on like a breathing machine
and he had like a fever dream because he was
on a lot of drugs, and he woke up the
(12:00):
next morning with the white load of season three plot
in his head. And sometimes that shows oh fow like
all the incestful moon stuff, every like tortured creative is
like writing that down. Yeah, yeah, I go to hospital,
go on breathing machine. But his reason for bringing back
Natasha Rothwell as Belinda is that he got a lot
of criticism for how her storyline ended in season one,
(12:20):
and people were like, oh my gosh, that poor woman, like,
you know, she has no say she did this, you
treated her so badly. And his idea was that this
character who he thought was like quite complex and layered,
and then Natasha Rothwell's portrayal of her was so good
that everyone was kind of just putting her into this
like character list woman of color who just lived to
serve this white woman and was like and once she
(12:41):
was like chastised and abandoned by her, her story was
over and she couldn't do anything, and she was like
also going to be this like moral compass, like she
would never do any say anything wrong because she's like
this beacon of spirituality, whereas she's like everyone else, she's
just a normal character who's like really layered. So bringing
her back and having her make the decision to take
that huge amount of money and not turn this man
(13:02):
in for murder and probably a thousand other bad things
that he's done was showing that like money can corrupt anyone.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, that storyline very interesting because like it was a
sad character in season one, but it also I think
spoke to the truth of exactly what those workers would
feel like getting glimmers of hope and then just never
having that follow through, And what I liked about her
character in season three was that it was never like
a white Night moment where someone like saved her out
(13:30):
of that. I mean someone did technically, but like she
pushed herself to do it, and Tanya did treat her
really badly and like that kind of I guess conflict
within herself and whether to accept the money or not.
But I also thought the five million specifically was so
interesting because five million is a lot of money, especially
(13:51):
if it's a character like Belinda. It's a lot of money,
but it's not enough money to retire, and it's also
too much money to like find the thing you want
to do and be happy about it, or like you
don't want to work, but you can't retire, And it's
that weird like limbo amount where I'm just like, I
don't know what she will do with that.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I mean I hadn't thought about that, and that
side event that she can't retire, I'd be like, yeah,
I definitely retire in five million, not in Sydney, though,
I guess, Yeah, what's kind of interesting about that. As
much as I'm saying to people like here, like oh,
you guys thought she was this overly moral character and
all that sort of stuff like I should just admit,
like so did I. I was quite shocked in that
scene where she, you know, son Zion are sitting down
across from Greg and then negotiating, and when she gets
(14:34):
up and goes, we're not doing this. I was just
like I saw this coming, Like, this is a woman
of moral character, and she is gonna not just let
herself get corrupted. She's not letting her son, yeah that
she's like, it looks like she's raised him as a
single mother be corrupted and she's not letting her son
fall into this. And she's getting them out of there
and they're gonna leave. And then I was like, oh
my god, are you gonna be allowed to leave? And
then all of a sudden plot twist, she was like, no,
(14:55):
get more money from him, like this is what we do.
We're playing good cop, bad cop. And I thought that
was it almost played me like all those other people
who had just assumed she was kind of this like
background character.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, and then you see it at the end of
like the tides turning right, like exactly what Tanya did
her she did to poor Chai, like she yeah, said
that she wanted to start a business with him and
like move there and then they could like develop something.
And then she told him like, my circumstances have changed
as and like I've got a lot of money now
and I think I can do this on my own
(15:25):
or do something else with it instead of like being
here with you. And then when she's like crying on
the boat as she's going home, you see those tears
in a different lens of like it's almost like a
relief cry for her. And then if it was the
other way around, people would be like, oh, that's such
a sad character. But I really want her to come
back in another season as like a like a Tanya essentially,
(15:47):
like a totally different.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
And be the rich person. Yeah. I thought she was
the least going to say to him like thanks for
the SAX. I know, I thought they had a real connection.
But money changes you. That's what we learned. You know
what me to go the exact same, I'd also be
getting a private boat out of there and get I
love also four million on the private jet alone. Yeah exactly. Also,
everyone keeps saying like why did all these people like
(16:09):
Greg and like get to it later? But Rick and
all this sort of stuff. They just all keep returning
to the White Lotus when they've done the crime, it's like,
get out of it. And it's because they have this
kind of privilege of like they feel untouchable. Whereas Belinda,
who has lived as a woman of color and also
having to like look after these rich people on her
job for many years, is has a more realistic situation.
She's like, we get the money, she'd get out of here.
(16:29):
We're leaving right now. Love that, Okay, moving on to
a different storyline. I guess what really works well on
the White Lotus is that you have all these rich
guests and all their crazy storyline, but then you always
have some staff at the White Loados who have like
their storylines as well. And this season like real glimpse
into staff life was with Mook and Guytok. Obviously with Mook,
there was a lot of build up around the performance
(16:51):
because it was Lisa from Black Pink. I know that's
what her full name, but I just feel like that's
what we call her, right, Lisa from Black Pink. She
doesn't even need last name.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, she just goes by Lisa.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, Well, I mean exactly. You can just say Lisa,
and we know who she's so arguably Jason Isaacs the
most famous person in the cast.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What I love about Mook's character, which is also very
similar to Fabian, is that what White Lotus does really
well is that they introduce you to so many characters
and you have to pick in your head which ones
are going to be the ones that they run with storylines,
because like Molk and Fabian, they didn't have that big
of a storyline, but they were like such important side characters.
(17:26):
I mean, Fabian just wanted to sing.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
I know, pushing the water at the end, I was like,
sleep him alone so.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Much, all the build up of him being so anxious
to sing, we see him sing.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
For like three seconds, then we go straight to the
women arguing with each other.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
It was so funny, funny.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Maybe he'll show up again as the new hotel manager.
But Gaytalk also was such a brilliant character. I feel
like the first few episodes I saw Gaytalk, I was like,
because we knew someone was going to die by a
shooting because we see the shooting in the first episode.
And then after we introduced to Kaytalk, I was like,
oh God, if he's the security guard, they're all gonna die. Yeah,
(18:07):
what a sweet man. He just wants to take Mook
on a date. And why wouldn't you, because, as Chelsea says,
she's so.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Pretty, she's stunning. What did you think of their relationship?
Because I feel like I was really rooting for them
as like a couple, and then it felt like she
was a bit insidious with him.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Because I feel like when they went to watch the
fight together and she was kind of like pushing him
to be this person that he didn't want to be. Yeah,
and we see at the end that he ends up
being that person. And it's hard to figure out whether
he became that person obviously. Like what I mean is
like when he shot Rick, Yeah, he became that person.
I don't know if it was for him or to
date her essentially.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I mean I feel like a lot of it was
because he had this desire, like he's in love with
her and he has this desire to be with her,
and so he was happy to like change and.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
She wasn't giving him the time of day her.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah. Well that's why I was never like super into
the romance because the way it's set up is like
I love them both as characters, but it was never
super set up to be invested in their love stories.
What I was thinking, because when he first asked her out,
it's almost like he's like, I know your brother and
I know your family, and he was kind of pushing
her to have lunch together, and you can see she
definitely just wants to be having lunch with her friends.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
She literally giggled and said, you're also funny.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
And then.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Well, this is like you've got to think of the
context again of us as sort of like inventing all
this stuff with these characters. It's like, this is her
brother's like older, maybe slightly weird friend or whatever who's
maybe like a bit of a brother to her. All
of a sudden he was like, no, come to lunch
with me, and like saying, I want to take you
on a date. Yeah, And it's this kind of weird
thing of where she sort of laughs and she's like,
I get my guess, so, but you never feel like
(19:38):
she's super into it. She obviously cares about him, and
I think a lot of that is that they have
this big shared history. Yeah, but I just didn't want
them to be endgame. But maybe she was. Once he
became like a burly gunwielding security guard. She was like,
I'm into it, that's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
If there were one part of the entire season that
I felt like was underdeveloped, it was the workers at
the Result, because I felt like Mike White did such
a great job at developing those characters, especially the hotel
managers from season one and season two, who were these brilliant,
strong characters who would always side eye there guess because
(20:10):
they were like, these guys are so annoyingly privileged, and
I felt like that opportunity was miss Ticks and maybe
for the lady who had to deal with the Ratler family.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Oh my god, No, she was incredible. So I interviewed
her as well, because she's a New Zealand actress, but
she has been neighbors and stuff in Australia, so we
claim her as an Astralian actress. And I interviewed her
when I interview the other cast members, And it's so
interesting morgana a Riley, because she was telling me all
these different things that she put into her character and
like some of them won't use, but like when Chelsea
and Rick first arrive off the boat and she's saying
(20:40):
to look like oh, you're so pretty. If you look
in the background, Morghana was telling me. When I watched
her back, I saw it. You can see that like
she's reacting to her. She's like thinking that Chelsea's calling
her pretty well, and then all the stuff are being
like no, no, no, she doesn't mean you, and like all this.
So there's all these like plotlines. Yeah, and like when
she's moving the blender around in when she's taking stuff
over to the Ratliff family, she's making faces behind them
(21:00):
and into all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
She's doing all this. So if you look back at
all the staff, they've all got their own storyline going
on the background. But unless you're looking for it, you'll
miss it, which I feelers maybe a missed opportunity because.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
It's never spoken. Yeah, I wish it was spoken, because
her like facial expressions with the Ratler family so good,
especially Jason Isaacs that's his name.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Timothy Ratliffe.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Especially Jason isaactually plays Timothy. Every time he told her, no,
I need my phone versus take away all the phone,
She's like, what the hell?
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah, And she essentially poisoned the sun by giving him
all that information.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I know, that was such good s. I think her
best line when she's like good on you and good
on you at first, when Timothy Ratliffe is saying that
his son Saxon works for him and all that sort
of build up just to finish up with Mukan Guytok's
storyline obviously, I mean they come out okay because he
gets the job he wants and she, you know, seems
to be she's with her bad boy. Yeah, she's finally
with a bad boy. We get it, we've all been there.
(21:56):
But did you think that having her in that role
was distracting? That's what some fans have said, Oh.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
That's such a good question. I don't think it was distracting.
I know people who are huge Black Pink fans and
like K pop fans did find it distracting because I
think all they saw was like Lisa, Yeah, and I
do get it, But I feel like she actually didn't
have that big of a role for it to be distracting.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
No, I know, but I think it was her casting.
So it's like, if we put like Taylor Swift in
that role, everyone's like, well, you don't get Taylor Swift
unless her role's going to be massive and I think
a lot of people were saying, like, you don't get
Lisa unless that role is going to be massive. So
as the episodes went on, everyone was just like, she's
like the secret killer, She's got some sort of a
plot she's And when it came out that she was
(22:43):
the character she was presented to us that she wasn't hiding,
she wasn't like a secret mastermind, she wasn't a serial
killer anything like that. People felt kind of cheated. And
it's interesting because I was reading some interviews with the
producers and they were saying that they were really worried
to cast her for that reason, that they thought it
might be distracting, but they just went with it because
when she auditioned, she was really good, and she said
like she's looking to change her career and this was
(23:05):
a new challenge, which I totally get. Like, even if
you're like one of the biggest pop stars in the world,
like she is, a starring role on the White Lotus
is a huge deal. So I kind of get it.
But I don't know, I just I guess I was
never thinking that she was this huge mastermind. I think
she was just there to be in the show. But
I feel like that was the biggest disappointment for a
lot of people. So I thought she was wasted.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I do see that now that you mentioned it, because
thinking back on the last few seasons, everyone is like
they're all a list celebrities, like they're really really famous,
but they're like the same amount of famous.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
So if you're right, if there's one person who's way
more famous than the others, you're like, oh, they're going
to do something crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And I think I see if you're a massive Black
Pink fan, like you would have been like, oh, she's
the one who does something great, she just never does.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Would she be an interesting character and date her bad boy?
Moving on to the trio, that's pretty much stole the show.
So we have Leslie bierbes Kate, Carrie Koon as Laurie,
and Michelle Monagan as a Jacqueline Lemon. No one actually
says her full name. I don't think much throughout the series.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
But she's like the reality stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
She's like a dramatic TV actress. Oh, I thought, yeah,
not a reality TV start. I think that'd be a
whole dif, a whole different show. What's interesting about this is,
at first I think we were all very instantly taken
in by this dynamic, but the actresses themselves are really
worried that their storyline would get pushed aside and forgotten.
Like when I was into ing Leslie Bibb, who plays Kate,
she was saying that that was their big fear because
(24:26):
she's like, our storyline is just this friendship dynamic, and
how do we like honestly communicate together and all this
sort of stuff. And she's like, it's really beautiful, but
how is that going to compete with like shootouts and
murder in incest? And the fact that it did I
think spoke to her like how much we love to
see female friendship depicted on screen.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, And I think they had the extra challenge of
all three of them literally being super rich, beautiful white
women who.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Mike White called them the blonde blob because when they
were together, they all just walked together and merged as
one blonde flob.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
And I think what they did was so well done
was like you could see each of them as individuals
as well as a collective, and I think they each
had really interesting individuals lines, and they all portrayed like
character chures of like every woman's biggest insecurities, because I
could see insecurities of mine in all three characters, Like
(25:19):
not the Trump stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I was gonna say, do you want to share something?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
But other things, and I think them going to like
all three different extremes of like how a woman should
live her life and seeing how it can clash, especially
when you're at that age where exactly what Kerrie Koon's
character like delivered that beautiful monologue in the last episode
that they grow together and then they grow apart and
then they come back together. And I think that never
(25:44):
gets spoken about when it comes to female friendships, and
they portrayed that so well.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, exactly. It was this dynamic. It's so perfectly captured
how so many friendships are, which is a reason that
I felt quite out of step with a lot of
people watching this season because from the moment you saw
these women on screen, particularly in the first episode where
Laurie's the first one to leave because she's tanked a
whole ball of wine, relatable. Yeah, and then they're kind
of like talking about each other and they're talking about
(26:10):
her and they keep saying she's so great, she's so wonderful,
But like, do you think this has happened, all that
sort of stuff, and she can see them gossiping.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Almost became an eye roll for the audience, right, they're like, Oh,
it's these friends who are just pretending to be friends,
but they actually say.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Exactly and all of a sudden, like the online commentary
around that, and also from people who I talk to
in real life would be like, oh my god, those
three toxic women. They're the worst, Like, what a terrible friendship.
And as the season went on, I started feeling really
out of step and like a monster because I'm like,
I don't think it's that bad. Well, I don't think
they've done anything that bad. This to me just seems
like a normal kind of friendship, especially people who've been
(26:45):
together that long. I don't think it was as toxic
as people were saying.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, their friendship like lies in between. What I think
is like between sisters and close friends, and it's that
like scary in between limbo because with sisters, you can
fight yep, knowing that you'll always come back together because
you always do. But with those kind of friendships that
you're so so close, you're always scared of fighting because
(27:10):
you don't have to come back together. And it shows
that when you have lived your lives and have grown
apart so easily, it's almost easier to not come back together. Yeah,
and I think what happens is that you end up
just like bitching to each other, like when the other
ones out of the room. I think Holly Wayne Wright
wrote about this really well. It's like you'll never bitch
about the third person to other people. Yeah, it's specific
(27:33):
to keep.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Within your feenship circle, because then you're talking to other
friends who have the same experience. So it's almost like
again with your siblings, like you can fight, but you
wouldn't let anyone else say something about them, And it's
the same with your friendship group. I think the other
reason people thought this was so toxic and crazy is
that we've come to look at female friendship in particular
on screen in very extreme ways. So for a long
(27:54):
time we had, like, you know, there was no female
friendship on TV, and a lot of us grew up
with like teen shows like A One Tree Hill and
all that sort of stuff, Dawson's Creek, all those kind
of shows where they're were female characters, but they were
always fighting. They were always like fighting over a boy,
like terror things happening to each other. They all had
a guy best friend. We just never really saw those moments.
And then things kind of flipped, and then we started
(28:16):
really romanticizing friendship, especially like millennial women, which obviously is incredible,
but then it was like every female friend I have
is my soulmate and we never fight and we talk
every day and everything's perfect, and you have these really
idolized friendships. And then this was just in between, which
is probably what most friendships are, where it's not this
toxic nastiness, but it's not this like we're together every
(28:39):
day and everything's perfect, and then people don't know how
to handle that.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, And it's also the risk that Laurie took of
like calling them out and putting everything on the table
and being super honest with how she feels, which I
found so confronting because I think it's quite scary to
be that honest with your close friends. Because when you
develop a friendship where you say that you're really really
close because you're always having a good time together and
(29:05):
you tell each other everything and you love each other,
it's like you feel like you can never ever.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Be a drain on them.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, And sometimes like you need to be a drain
on them because they're your people, and like Laurie said,
like they're the only people that she really has. And
I can tell that these three friends obviously they're now
bonded over something that they've experienced dramatically because I literally
saw that guy get shot. But now they're all going
to go back home and they're going to be like,
that was literally the most exhausting holiday of my life. Yeah,
they'll keep doing it over and over again.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, I mean that's the dream. God, if anyone's going
to come back for a new season, I'd love to
see those girls having like a makeup holiday. So much
of their scenes got cut as well, which I just
know is what happens when you have such a big
cast and such a big set and all those kind
of things. And like they actually shot all these scenes
where they go in a lot more to like their
friendship dynamic and their real life, so you hear more
about Jacquelin's marriage, more about Kate's family, and like also
(29:56):
more about her being like a Trump supporter and stuff,
which a lot of that stuff Mike White decided to
pull because when he started writing the show, the election
hadn't happened yet, so he thought it was going to
be talking about like a post Donald Trump world and
he's like, it's a big intense now that he's the
president again. But also there was gonna be this whole
storyline where Laurie had a non binary child and that
was going to be like a big talking point with
(30:17):
the women. So those scenes were filmed but all cut.
So it would have been kind of interesting because sometimes
they seem like they've come back together and to the
audience could seem jarring, but it's because those actual actors
had filmed these scenes of sharing this information.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
So especially when there's so much like background acting, like
you said, of them just like staring at each other sometimes,
Like I wonder with the scenes, and I have read
some of the scenes that have been cut of like
what we're missing in.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Those days exactly so, But I think overall, like incredibly
strong storyline and so good exactly, best like depiction of
friendship ever exactly, most realistic one Alright, getting into everyone's
favorite family of the rat Lifts. So we have Jason
Isaac our messy bestie as Timothy Ratliffe Parker Posey, who again,
(31:01):
I just freaking love that she's having this like I
feel like a new fandom has discovered her. Yeah, because
again she's been an actress for what like over thirty
years something like that. I remember just being obsessed with
her Josie the Pussycats iconic, but also the Blade Trinity,
but also I've got mail like everything, and then like,
did she just Game three? Scream three? She's so good,
she take a break.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
From acting, and then.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I think she's done, Like she's dumb bits and pieces
and I think she took like an extended break or
anything like that. But she kind of just goes with
the rolls in this role. And then the crazy messed
up children Sam Navola as Lachlan Ratlift, Sarah Catherine Hook
as Piper Ratlift, and Patrick Swartznegger our favorite new NEPO
baby as Saxon. What do you need to say about Saxon?
(31:43):
Because I feel like you were quite enamored by him
this season or we freaked out by him.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I can't tell I hate that Patrick.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Swartznegger, No, no, no, because he didn't interview with.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Us that he made me cry. He made me so
sad for him.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh really, he would be thrilled to that actually.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Made me cry, like out of the the last episode
when he was on the beach with Chelsea and they
were talking and then she sees Rick and runs over
to Rick and he looks back on her his face.
I don't know how he did that with his face, Like,
he's actually a brilliant actor.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, that like brought me to tears. Everyone was saying
it was a similar moment that face on the beach
to you know, the end of season two Meghan Fay,
he is Daphne when she blu prim Yeah, when she's acting,
there's a slight twitch of her face and with one twitch,
she realizes my husband had an affair with the woman
I now consider a close friend. And here's what I'm
going to do about it. It's like one second and
(32:36):
it's the same with Patrick Swartznigger and that scene.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
It was absolutely brilliant. And I got a hint that
he was going to be really good this season when
Chelsea called him soulless. Yeah, in the first few episodes
and you can see like that look of his face.
I think he has the best character arc in the
whole season.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That is so interesting because coming into the role first,
Patrick Schwarzenegger was one of the ones who as soon
as he saw White Luis, he said, I'll do it.
I'll do anything, and then the creators told him that
there was going to be an incest scene and they
didn't name names, but apparently there was quite a few
other big name actors in the mixed to that role
who was going to audition and when they heard about
the incest scenes, they pulled out and wouldn't do it,
(33:15):
and Patrick Schwarzenegger's like, put me in there. I'll do
anything pretty much, you know. We also the video of
him crying when he told his family got the role,
and he obviously comes from like a crazy prominent family
on both sides, but he really wanted this role, and
he said that he went in thinking that Saxon was
going to have this big come to Jesus character arc
and he was going to be a changed man. And
so for one of the scenes he went on and
(33:36):
played it like that as if he's a changed man,
and Mike White called cut. And Mike White sounds like
the weirdest like and also most brilliant, but most cutting person.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
He can read the mind.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
He walked around, He's like, what the hell was that?
He's like don't do that. He's like, just so you know,
the show runs for a few months.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Someone told me that I'd cry, you cried on instead
of the White Lotus straight up crying. Okay, that's why
I didn't say that to you in the pod records.
But he's like, what are you doing? You can't do that,
And then Patrick Schortznegg said, I tried to explain, like, no, no, no,
he's a change man.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I'm going to do this. I'm going to show this,
and Mike White was like, just remember this show was
on for a couple of months. Saxon is at this
resort for a week, Like, he cannot change this much.
You gotta pull it back. So it's interesting that we're
seeing the very pulled back version of him having this epiphany.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Well that's the thing, Like you might not even see
it as an epiphany because like right at the end,
what I didn't like is that we didn't really get
to see him. I guess maurn Chelsea's death because you
see him with her pretty much together for like three
days straight, and they become really close, and I feel
like she's taught him so many things, to the point
where he starts reading like.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Reading the biggest plot twist of all.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
But I also when I like sat down with that
thought that I had about how annoyed I was so
where he didn't mourn her death, I was like, maybe
he actually didn't really care, maybe because that's like if
we'd look at him from like I guess, like you said,
they've only been there for a week, for like three
days earlier, he wouldn't care at all.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I think, Yeah, I think people have definitely romanticized that online.
They're like he's a change man because he lost her,
And I was like, he just really wanted to have
sex with her because she didn't want to have sex
with him, and a lot of me and like once,
if they can't use you for like some sort of
like sexual desire, then like they kind of blank you
in their minds.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
So he literally told his brother like he was gonna
take advantage of the girls when they got really really drunk,
and then they ended up happening to him.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I know, Okay, well let's talk about that, because I'm
just like, he's such an unlikable character, and that type
of man is like so unlikable, and it just also
feels so realistic. Interestingly, Amy Lee Wood was saying an
interview that every other cast went back shares something in
common with their character and that's why they were casts.
Like she shares like Chelsea's like optimism, and like she
also loves a good love story and she's a bit yeah, exactly,
(35:45):
And she said. The only two people and the whole
cast who are nothing like their characters at all. Michelle
Monaghan as Jacqueline, She's like nothing like her. There's nothing
to connect the two. And Patrick Schwarzenegger as Saxon. And
I was like, really, because we thought that was just
him being Yeah, his mom had to come out and
be like, he's not like.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Saxon, and I kind of believe it now.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
M I mean, I don't think he's that bad, but I'm.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Sure this actor just so good.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Also, Neo Baby, he's Emily Mornemer's son and he's currently
dating More Apatow as in Judd Apatow And so they're
all little and they're on set with Patrick rest of us,
I know, which it's like Nefo Baby Central behind the
scenes there, but you know, we love these crazy kids.
It's okay, So yes, getting back onto Sexon before we
get to the rest of the family. But he's just
(36:29):
there's so much to say about him. I really felt
sorry for him too. I don't know why. There's just
a patheticness to him through the whole thing that you
can't help but feel sorry for him, even though he's
like the most privileged person there really, because he's so
unburdened by any expectator like looking after a family anything
like that, like his dad is. But he's also so
privileged and just does what he wants. But you do
end up feeling sorry for him.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And I feel like he did non consentually have sex.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
He did get sexually assaulted, which I feel like we
all skimmed over. Yeah, what did you think? That was
so much build up to that scene?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
So much build up to that scene. I thought it
was going to be way more explicit than it was.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, the same, although it was enough so many people.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Hated it, right, Yeah, I feel like it was expected.
I didn't think it was that big of a deal.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Ah. Yeah. Most people I talked too were just like
so shocked, and I was like, oh, we must watch
some different TV shows because I've seen way worse than this.
It was obviously super shocking because it's also one of
like the few you know, taboo things that like it
doesn't even feel fun to like play with at all,
Like it just still feels taboo no matter what, and.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
It really likes like one percent rich person's like we
don't have sex with.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Us, Yeah, we don't do that. But also I think
because it was done this drug haze, but I think
it was. Yeah, I was trying to think of like
was it just there for like this intense shock value, and.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Kind of shock value was finding out that Lucky did
it purposefully and he wasn't as drunk.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, I mean, well yeah exactly because he was told
he was a people pleaser and that's why Ray said
that I'm a people pleaser, Like that's not what we made.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Saxon's means, just like mortified.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, I just felt like I guess maybe I didn't
love it because it didn't feel like it was building
to anything. It just felt like a punishment for this
really unlikable character. Like it felt like a punishment for
Saxon's so it could be like hah, like we got
him and now he has to go off and like
feel bad about everything. But I didn't love that as
a plot device. It felt kind of empty.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah. I feel like if they went in harder on it, yeah,
no pun attended, then it might have been more interesting.
But I feel like it had no real impact on
him wanting to change.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, but it also made him look just ashamed. But
I think it was almost like Chelsea rejecting him that
was his big change, Yeah, because when she was explaining
that she found him soulless and she found him all
these things, and not that he wanted to change to
be with her, He just wanted to continue tricking her again.
So much of the Rightlift family story got cut, and
it's one of those things where like, obviously could we
didn't even find out exactly what happened with his work. Yeah,
(38:53):
I wonder if that was a Yeah, a lot of
people are angry because they wanted to see the Rightlift
family like reckon with what happened, and they wanted to
see the fall out of it. But I almost think
the way it ended of him just being like, this
is going to happen, and we're still going to be
a family, and all the kids have changed, Like when
you see that first shot of them coming from the
boat in the first episode, Saxon's all like swaggered and
(39:13):
he's sitting up straight and he's like the head of
like where the kids are sitting. And then Piper is
sitting with headphones on, head down, like you know, she's
like there just for a spiritual reason. And on the
way back you can see she's very much just accepted
that she's exactly like this family that she was so
against being part of. And then Lachlan's character is this
like meek, mild little brother on the way over, and
then he's like sitting at the top of the line
(39:34):
and on the way back he's like kind of a
powerful one. But it's actually most of Piper's storyline that
got cut because she's supposed to when she comes back
and deside she doesn't want to live at the monastery. Decide, yeah,
so real. That's the most real for storyline in the whole
things like.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Could I really be eating that every day?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yeah, it's not organic? Again relatable. She was meant to
come back to the resort, decided she was going to
lose her virginity because she was giving up the spirituality,
and she they filmed this that she was supposed to
have a sex scene with Zion, Belinda's son, and that's
when when you see her coming back into the room
later on, her hair's all messed up and she's like
strutting around and they're meant to be like, this is
what happens when you lose your viginity become like a
(40:13):
power kind of woman and stuff. So that was all cut.
And she's also their scene when they're leaving the monastery
where Lachlan goes to her, like they were having that
conversation she's like, I don't want to ruin my life
and she's like this family is so incestuous, and they
cut this bit but he's like, why what have you heard?
So she was meant to almost know what her brothers
(40:34):
had done, which also makes the end scene make a
bit more sense. But if the friendship group was the
most honest depiction of like a women's female friendship, then
I felt this was the most honest depiction of like
generational wealth on like a family that also sees themselves
as like this untouchable pillar of community.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Untouchable's ride just so silly with like how Timothy was
pretty much interviewing each members for family, asking if they
could live without money.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, like trying to kill them off in a different
way yeah, exactly. And also a lot of people were, yeah,
not loving the fact that they have those drinks with
the poison fruit and then they don't get sick. But
then Lachlan, you know, makes the drink in a dirty blender,
which the vibe was like, if you make a drink
and a dirty blender, you deserve to die, but also
very realistic for a teen boy who's probably never washed
a dish in his whole life.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
That's my one thing. I actually wish he died.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
M I guess, oh, no, people are upset, and I
was like, actually, don't care if that kid lives or.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Die, because I think it was I was like stuck
on what Chelsea says at the beginning where she's like,
bad things happen in threes.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
So it felt like three people, yell three main because
three people did die.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
I think more than three people. Yeah, but I wanted
three main people to die.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Interesting well, which leads us into the final scene. How
did you think about the ending with the deaths of
Rick and Chelsea.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
I actually thought it was a bit of a cheap death, really,
is that? I think? Especially Chelsea's like I think you
see Rick and you like think he's going to change,
and then he goes to that therapist for his stress
and he's like, I'm pretty much going to do something bad,
like I need to talk to you, which I think
was such a great look at like the privilege that
they all still have, Like they're all tortured in different ways,
(42:09):
but they all have that same privilege where you have
to help me right now.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah, people at blaming the therapist, and it was like,
let's not blame her for him shooting a man. That's why.
That's crazy if.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
You're blaming her. And then he just ends up shooting
the guy. We find out he's a Sparta, which I
feel like we already.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, I think it was meant to be a huge
plot twist, but then they hamn't at home so much.
You didn't feel like a plot twist, but maybe it
wasn't meant to I don't know.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
And then just her dying like and you're just watching
him see the love that he could have had die,
and then the both of them dying together. I felt
like I've just seen that scene before so many times
that it didn't really hit me.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It was like, what I thought was interesting is a
lot of people are sort of saying like we shouldn't
glamorize their love. Their love was toxic, and it's like, yeah, absolutely,
But that's the interesting part of it is you watch
these two people who were so unsuited, so in this
like love story that shouldn't have worked, but they're caught
up in the like the mythology of their own romance.
And also at the end of the day, like he
(43:05):
just made that decision, as she said, like you can
pick the love you didn't have, or you can have
the love that's right here, and he went the way,
which is just like human nature, and that's why he
lost her in the shootout, and he has this moment
where you know he's trying to save her, and it's
meant to show that he is not this like kind
of villainous person, even though he's just shot dead his
father without knowing. It's meant to give them like a
bit of redemption. And also I think it was meant
(43:26):
to be like tragically beautiful. I don't know if anyone
took it that way, but because when you see in
the first episode their deaths through Zion's eyes and he
sees these bodies floating, and it seems like it'll be
really horrific and that you'll see these like bloody mess
of people floating in the water. But when we finally
get to the last episode and you see their bodies,
it's almost like they're lying peacefully. Yeah, And they're wrapped
around each other like the years Yang smiling the other year. Yeah,
(43:49):
they're wrapped together like a loose depiction of the Ying
and Yang singbol to show that they're two opposites who
have come together. And because they pretty much die side
by side in the water together and their blood's intermingling,
it's meant to show that Chelsea's prediction was correct, that
they'll be together forever in this life and the next.
And so it's almost like they give her a happy
ending because she got what she wanted, but no one
(44:09):
wanted that.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I didn't even put that together. Yeah, And I think
when Rick killed his father, I knew that Rick had
to die because the thing that the White Lotus does
is like someone always gets murdered, but then no one
is ever held accountable. Yeah, Like they're all of this
like esteemed privilege where they will never ever be like
charged or anything. And that's happened from all the seasons,
(44:31):
and that there was no way that Rick could live
without facing.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
The exactly because you either have to have it be
like an accidental death or the person escapes like Greg
or like Rick there also killed in the shootout of
that idea, Yeah, it's almost like every season has to
finish and we can't have this idea that like illegal
proceedings happening afterwards and someone's being charged. It has to
come together in this final moment and that last thing
(44:54):
of them all on the boat going off together. And
I know there's been like a lot of criticism over
like why are so many of them smiling when they
just witness to death, But I think it's also just showing,
like I don't know, the three women were hugging each other,
I thought like they were very much still in like a.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
They were post.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Saw it.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Glory running for her life like she like.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Karacoons, so she's like, sorry, I'm a New Yorker, I
hat gunshots, I run, I know what to do. But
I thought that was also just showing that these people
who had had this week in this crazy place at
the end of the day had changed a little bit,
but not really, They've never changed. They're all just for
like a week they're all the hear of their own story.
They're all like on the boat being like I've a
changed person. I've come back instead of not realizing what's happened.
(45:34):
So look overall, i'd say like a good season, my favorite,
Well again not my favorite, but I still enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today.
The Spill is produced by ned Green with some production
by Scott's Stronik. And we'll be back here on your
podcast feed at three pm on Monday. Bye bye.
You're listening to a mum of mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and Waters
that this podcast is recorded on Hello, it is Jesse here,
and I'm dropping in to tell you that this summer
we are curating a very special podcast playlist for you.
We are bringing you the insanely popular and always funny,
brutally honest reviews from our friends on the Spill, from
(00:38):
the top TV shows of the year, to the biggest
movies of twenty twenty five which.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
You may have only just had the chance to watch.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And of course some classics. The Spill gives you completely
unfiltered and real takes, as well as easter eggs and
behind the scenes gossip. This is your summer listening sorted
and if you are looking for more to listen to,
if you are just binging podcast this holiday season, every
Muma Mea podcast is curating your summer listening right across
(01:06):
our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews,
there's something for everyone. There is a link in our show.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Notes from Momma Mia. Welcome to the Spill, your daily
pop culture fix.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I'm em Vernon and I'm Laura Brodnick and God at
love these episodes.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
We are doing a brutally honest review of this, So
if you're confused this was this season's theme song. Yes,
we have talked about how it's a bit different to
the last two seasons. That's a huge feud about it,
and then you can read, so do that in your
(01:50):
own time, because we are doing a briarly honest review
of season three of The White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yes, and if you're new to our brudly honest review series,
then this is the episode where we deep dive on
the biggest movie or TV show that has just come
out this week. So there are going to be spoilers galore.
But also, if you've gotten to this point of the
week and you don't know how The White Loatue ends,
you must just be living in like a cave under
a mountain surrounded by cement, because there's no way, there's
(02:20):
no way to hide from that. But yes, we're gonna
be going deep on spoilers, behind the scenes facts, some
unpopular opinions on how the show ended and how the
characters worked, all that sort of stuff. We haven't discussed
anything yet, so with each other's opinions, are going to
be a surprise, So that's all we're getting into. But yeah,
so this season of The White Lotus was set in Thailand.
There was almost like a bit of a bidding war
(02:40):
between a lot of countries of where The White Loatus
would be set because a lot of countries were scouted
for different sets and locations. Thailand sort of gave them
like quite a big tax break and also offered some
incentive through their tourism partners. Even with that, though, it
still ended up being the most expensive season of The
White Lotus yet interesting, which I find yet very interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Maybe next season we can do like White Lotus and
Barron Bay.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That would be the most expensive season. Also, you're going
to be so expensive for the cast, because Walter Goggins,
who plays Rick, was saying that he didn't realize how
expensive it would for him to be personally on The
White Lotus because they obviously fly you there to shoot
the show, and they pay for your hotel room because
you live in the hotel that you filled the show at,
but the cars have to pay for all their incidental
So at the end of like the first month of filming,
(03:26):
they all got their room bills and he was like, literally,
I'm losing money because he got too many like salted
cashews and things and didn't realize how expensive they were.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
So funny and they were all on the same salary
and they were all non negotiable salaries.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Well exactly, that's what Mike White the creator sets up
when he made the White Loaders, is that every single
person has to audition and then they all also paid
the same salary. And can you guess who had a
problem with that MESSI behind the scenes best friend Jason
Isaacs was Jason, out of everyone there, you're not getting
(04:01):
paid more? He thought, Oh no, So if you miss
yesterday's episode, we were talking about some of the fears
that have happened behind the White Loaders because we can't
get into this man. He would he would love to
tell you everything that happened. So we talked yesterday about
how he was sort of talking about feuds and making
and he's been very messy behind the scenes. But he
(04:21):
was saying that he found it very strange that he
had to audition because he said, look, I don't want
to have.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Not seen all eight Harry Potter films.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
That's pretty much what he said, because he said, look,
I don't want to get too big for my boots.
But really, Mike, I have to meet with a casting director.
I walked through Times Square and my face was on
like five billboards talking about Harry Potter Days obviously. So anyway,
what's also the interesting thing about this third season of
The White Lotus is that Mike White has said the
first season was to highlight money and wealth. The second
(04:52):
season was to highlight sex and like the power it
can give and how it can shape relationships and money
and wealth. Yes, exactly, I mean that's just always a given.
And this third season was meant to be a kind
of a satirical look at spirituality. But also how like,
especially like white Western people can go like take over
Eastern religion, take the wrong message for her and make
(05:13):
it for themselves, which we particularly see with I think
the Rightliff family, but all of them to an extent.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, I really like that messaging. Because as I was
reading a lot of reviews on this and largely a
lot of people don't like this season. Yeah, personally, it
was my favorite season of all three. Yeahs three to
two one, oh.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Mine's two one three.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
So like the other girls, I hate you, this might
be a very unpopular opiegon but.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Okay, this is a safe space only die hard spillers
listen to it.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I was looking on socials. A lot of people were
quite vocal about how much they don't like this season,
and I think that's mainly because this season is so
reflective of a particular class in society that's also an
achievable class. And exactly what you said. Season one was
about money and wealth. That was a class that I
feel like was so unachievable. But this class of people
(06:05):
going to resorts in Thailand still so expensive. You still
have to have a certain amount of privilege to be
able to do that, but people can still do that. Yeah,
And I think a lot of people who watched the
season could see some certain reflections of themselves and just
hated it.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
This is why I'm just gonna say, a lot of
white millennial women like me get really angry at shows
like Emily in Paris or Sex and the City or
the Ball type because it's like it's too close to home.
The mirror is too close to these women that you hate,
like it's me. I also just think on that, just
to touch on sort of like a lot of people
who didn't like this season, or who thought it was
really anti climactic. A lot of the criticism was anti climactic,
(06:43):
too slow, and the finale was unsatisfying because they thought
it was too many loose threads. And I thought a
lot about that. Obviously, there were some storylines that feel
like they need more attention, or you know, some areas
where you think, oh, I feel like they dropped the
ball there. But I think overall, people are just watching
the show the wrong way at the moment, because they're
watching it like it's this big murder mystery with all
(07:03):
these secret clues and every single scene has something hid
in the background. It all means to you like everyone's
watching like their detective. But it's not a murder mystery.
It's a character study. And I think with the first season,
no one knew what to expect, and this thing that
was made during a pandemic and the cast were locked
away and it just came on to our screens. We
just watched it that way and we were just so
into all these different character dynamics. And season two, the
(07:27):
mystery heated up a little bit. But season three, everyone
came in being like, I'm going to solve the mystery
in the first episode, and it's like, it's not about that.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, and it's never a mystery, like you kind of
figure it out like as it's going.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
The best thing about when this series first came out
is that they did it so well with season one,
where you completely forget that someone's actually dead, like one
of the characters like someone's dead, and then because they
stuck with that theme for season two, it felt like
it was the ongoing thing that only everyone cared about.
So after every episode of season three, instead of what
we were doing for the last two seasons, where we
(08:01):
were diving in deep into each character and like what
they wanted and their floors and their secrets, every single episode,
we were just like, oh, I wonder if that dead,
like if they're the person who, which is really annoying,
I agree.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Which I think also a lot of people have just
missed a lot of the not everyone, but maybe just
people who were screaming the loudest online, which is always
the case. I guess people have missed a lot more
of the nuances and the character moments, and also just
the freedom that comes with having a show where you
can just let the characters go for a little bit.
I got to interview a few of the cast when
they're in Australia, and Leslie Bier, who plays Kate, who's
one of the three blonde best friends, was saying that
(08:35):
on the first day of filming, because they went to
film first the women, they were just racing through all
of their pages and scenes trying to like get it done,
like we're doing this rarah. And then Mike White had
to come over and be like, Okay, stop, do it
all again, because you guys are not like you in
your characters. You're not looking at the material properly. He's like,
it's about how you look at each other. It's about
like the silence. It's about like capturing one of your
(08:57):
faces in the background, and that's what we're going to do.
So they went back and refilmed everything so good, the
nuance of like how they're looking or what they're not
saying and all that sort of stuff. And I think
they were saying that happened with a lot of the characters.
It was about those so kind of meander moments. And
also Mike White was writing a lot of the scripts,
like just before they started filming, like he's still moving
(09:19):
things and you know, taking things out and that sort
of stuff. So if you're still writing when you're about
to film, it can't be that intricative, you know, like
the color of the curtains means this. And also so
much ended up on the cutting room floor, like whole storylines,
whole scenes, Like we're really only seeing a snippet of
the story. But you've got to go with that.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
You have to go with that.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Okay. So now we've just got all our grievances out
of it out of the way, getting onto a different
character group. So I think I have to start with
the storyline that started in season one, and that is
Natasha Rothwell's character of Belinda Lindsay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
She was the SPA manager from The White Lotus season
one in Hawaii, we saw her pop up again in Thailand.
She's on like a work exchange and it's kind of
says like she's living her best life as much as
she can because she's on a holiday. To an extent,
we're also getting all these different skills and she's having
just lovely time. Until Greg John Greese, who has been
(10:14):
in every season The White Loatus so far, I would
almost just love that is like every single White Lotus.
Because here's the big issue that everyone has with Greg.
Now Gary Hunt in the show, She's season, but he's
Greg to Gary, I want to do more. This is
the issue people have with him. People aren't that angry
(10:35):
that he had Tanya Jennifer Coolige's character killed. They're angry
that he's stupid enough to commit a murder pretty much
connected to a White Lotus. And he had his wife killed,
who was one of the White Lotuses, like highest tier
returning members. And then he goes into hiding while he's
wanted for questioning in relation to her mysterious death, and
(10:56):
he hides out at another White Lotus like up the Hill,
but he goes down to the White Lotus every night.
That's a terrible hiding spot. But it also is like
the arrogance of like a rich white man.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
I think it.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Also shows that like every character in The White Lotus
is so unlikable, Like every single one of them. It's
like if they were a person in real life, you know,
you would absolutely hate that person. And it also shows
that with these people, which we actually do see in
Belinda's character as the season goes on, is actually kind
of replicates Greg in a way where like, once you
(11:28):
get so much money, you just kind of like turn
into a person that you hated and you just like
kind of lose like all senses. Like he doesn't think, right,
he's just got so much money that he doesn't need
to think.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah exactly, Yeah, you kind of forget that you're not
untouchable because of the money does feel like such a
big buffer and like to an extent, it is. It's
interesting you brought that up about her changing her personality
almost because well, first of all, he also said that
he came up with season three when he was hospitalized
for bronchitis and he was on like a breathing machine
and he had like a fever dream because he was
on a lot of drugs, and he woke up the
(12:00):
next morning with the white load of season three plot
in his head. And sometimes that shows oh fow like
all the incestful moon stuff, every like tortured creative is
like writing that down. Yeah, yeah, I go to hospital,
go on breathing machine. But his reason for bringing back
Natasha Rothwell as Belinda is that he got a lot
of criticism for how her storyline ended in season one,
(12:20):
and people were like, oh my gosh, that poor woman, like,
you know, she has no say she did this, you
treated her so badly. And his idea was that this
character who he thought was like quite complex and layered,
and then Natasha Rothwell's portrayal of her was so good
that everyone was kind of just putting her into this
like character list woman of color who just lived to
serve this white woman and was like and once she
(12:41):
was like chastised and abandoned by her, her story was
over and she couldn't do anything, and she was like
also going to be this like moral compass, like she
would never do any say anything wrong because she's like
this beacon of spirituality, whereas she's like everyone else, she's
just a normal character who's like really layered. So bringing
her back and having her make the decision to take
that huge amount of money and not turn this man
(13:02):
in for murder and probably a thousand other bad things
that he's done was showing that like money can corrupt anyone.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, that storyline very interesting because like it was a
sad character in season one, but it also I think
spoke to the truth of exactly what those workers would
feel like getting glimmers of hope and then just never
having that follow through, And what I liked about her
character in season three was that it was never like
a white Night moment where someone like saved her out
(13:30):
of that. I mean someone did technically, but like she
pushed herself to do it, and Tanya did treat her
really badly and like that kind of I guess conflict
within herself and whether to accept the money or not.
But I also thought the five million specifically was so
interesting because five million is a lot of money, especially
(13:51):
if it's a character like Belinda. It's a lot of money,
but it's not enough money to retire, and it's also
too much money to like find the thing you want
to do and be happy about it, or like you
don't want to work, but you can't retire, And it's
that weird like limbo amount where I'm just like, I
don't know what she will do with that.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I mean I hadn't thought about that, and that
side event that she can't retire, I'd be like, yeah,
I definitely retire in five million, not in Sydney, though,
I guess, Yeah, what's kind of interesting about that. As
much as I'm saying to people like here, like oh,
you guys thought she was this overly moral character and
all that sort of stuff like I should just admit,
like so did I. I was quite shocked in that
scene where she, you know, son Zion are sitting down
across from Greg and then negotiating, and when she gets
(14:34):
up and goes, we're not doing this. I was just
like I saw this coming, Like, this is a woman
of moral character, and she is gonna not just let
herself get corrupted. She's not letting her son, yeah that
she's like, it looks like she's raised him as a
single mother be corrupted and she's not letting her son
fall into this. And she's getting them out of there
and they're gonna leave. And then I was like, oh
my god, are you gonna be allowed to leave? And
then all of a sudden plot twist, she was like, no,
(14:55):
get more money from him, like this is what we do.
We're playing good cop, bad cop. And I thought that
was it almost played me like all those other people
who had just assumed she was kind of this like
background character.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, and then you see it at the end of
like the tides turning right, like exactly what Tanya did
her she did to poor Chai, like she yeah, said
that she wanted to start a business with him and
like move there and then they could like develop something.
And then she told him like, my circumstances have changed
as and like I've got a lot of money now
and I think I can do this on my own
(15:25):
or do something else with it instead of like being
here with you. And then when she's like crying on
the boat as she's going home, you see those tears
in a different lens of like it's almost like a
relief cry for her. And then if it was the
other way around, people would be like, oh, that's such
a sad character. But I really want her to come
back in another season as like a like a Tanya essentially,
(15:47):
like a totally different.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
And be the rich person. Yeah. I thought she was
the least going to say to him like thanks for
the SAX. I know, I thought they had a real connection.
But money changes you. That's what we learned. You know
what me to go the exact same, I'd also be
getting a private boat out of there and get I
love also four million on the private jet alone. Yeah exactly. Also,
everyone keeps saying like why did all these people like
(16:09):
Greg and like get to it later? But Rick and
all this sort of stuff. They just all keep returning
to the White Lotus when they've done the crime, it's like,
get out of it. And it's because they have this
kind of privilege of like they feel untouchable. Whereas Belinda,
who has lived as a woman of color and also
having to like look after these rich people on her
job for many years, is has a more realistic situation.
She's like, we get the money, she'd get out of here.
(16:29):
We're leaving right now. Love that, Okay, moving on to
a different storyline. I guess what really works well on
the White Lotus is that you have all these rich
guests and all their crazy storyline, but then you always
have some staff at the White Loados who have like
their storylines as well. And this season like real glimpse
into staff life was with Mook and Guytok. Obviously with Mook,
there was a lot of build up around the performance
(16:51):
because it was Lisa from Black Pink. I know that's
what her full name, but I just feel like that's
what we call her, right, Lisa from Black Pink. She
doesn't even need last name.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, she just goes by Lisa.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, Well, I mean exactly. You can just say Lisa,
and we know who she's so arguably Jason Isaacs the
most famous person in the cast.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What I love about Mook's character, which is also very
similar to Fabian, is that what White Lotus does really
well is that they introduce you to so many characters
and you have to pick in your head which ones
are going to be the ones that they run with storylines,
because like Molk and Fabian, they didn't have that big
of a storyline, but they were like such important side characters.
(17:26):
I mean, Fabian just wanted to sing.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
I know, pushing the water at the end, I was like,
sleep him alone so.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Much, all the build up of him being so anxious
to sing, we see him sing.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
For like three seconds, then we go straight to the
women arguing with each other.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
It was so funny, funny.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Maybe he'll show up again as the new hotel manager.
But Gaytalk also was such a brilliant character. I feel
like the first few episodes I saw Gaytalk, I was like,
because we knew someone was going to die by a
shooting because we see the shooting in the first episode.
And then after we introduced to Kaytalk, I was like,
oh God, if he's the security guard, they're all gonna die. Yeah,
(18:07):
what a sweet man. He just wants to take Mook
on a date. And why wouldn't you, because, as Chelsea says,
she's so.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Pretty, she's stunning. What did you think of their relationship?
Because I feel like I was really rooting for them
as like a couple, and then it felt like she
was a bit insidious with him.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Well what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Because I feel like when they went to watch the
fight together and she was kind of like pushing him
to be this person that he didn't want to be. Yeah,
and we see at the end that he ends up
being that person. And it's hard to figure out whether
he became that person obviously. Like what I mean is
like when he shot Rick, Yeah, he became that person.
I don't know if it was for him or to
date her essentially.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I mean I feel like a lot of it was
because he had this desire, like he's in love with
her and he has this desire to be with her,
and so he was happy to like change and.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
She wasn't giving him the time of day her.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah. Well that's why I was never like super into
the romance because the way it's set up is like
I love them both as characters, but it was never
super set up to be invested in their love stories.
What I was thinking, because when he first asked her out,
it's almost like he's like, I know your brother and
I know your family, and he was kind of pushing
her to have lunch together, and you can see she
definitely just wants to be having lunch with her friends.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
She literally giggled and said, you're also funny.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
And then.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Well, this is like you've got to think of the
context again of us as sort of like inventing all
this stuff with these characters. It's like, this is her
brother's like older, maybe slightly weird friend or whatever who's
maybe like a bit of a brother to her. All
of a sudden he was like, no, come to lunch
with me, and like saying, I want to take you
on a date. Yeah, And it's this kind of weird
thing of where she sort of laughs and she's like,
I get my guess, so, but you never feel like
(19:38):
she's super into it. She obviously cares about him, and
I think a lot of that is that they have
this big shared history. Yeah, but I just didn't want
them to be endgame. But maybe she was. Once he
became like a burly gunwielding security guard. She was like,
I'm into it, that's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
If there were one part of the entire season that
I felt like was underdeveloped, it was the workers at
the Result, because I felt like Mike White did such
a great job at developing those characters, especially the hotel
managers from season one and season two, who were these brilliant,
strong characters who would always side eye there guess because
(20:10):
they were like, these guys are so annoyingly privileged, and
I felt like that opportunity was miss Ticks and maybe
for the lady who had to deal with the Ratler family.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Oh my god, No, she was incredible. So I interviewed
her as well, because she's a New Zealand actress, but
she has been neighbors and stuff in Australia, so we
claim her as an Astralian actress. And I interviewed her
when I interview the other cast members, And it's so
interesting morgana a Riley, because she was telling me all
these different things that she put into her character and
like some of them won't use, but like when Chelsea
and Rick first arrive off the boat and she's saying
(20:40):
to look like oh, you're so pretty. If you look
in the background, Morghana was telling me. When I watched
her back, I saw it. You can see that like
she's reacting to her. She's like thinking that Chelsea's calling
her pretty well, and then all the stuff are being
like no, no, no, she doesn't mean you, and like all this.
So there's all these like plotlines. Yeah, and like when
she's moving the blender around in when she's taking stuff
over to the Ratliff family, she's making faces behind them
(21:00):
and into all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
She's doing all this. So if you look back at
all the staff, they've all got their own storyline going
on the background. But unless you're looking for it, you'll
miss it, which I feelers maybe a missed opportunity because.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
It's never spoken. Yeah, I wish it was spoken, because
her like facial expressions with the Ratler family so good,
especially Jason Isaacs that's his name.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Timothy Ratliffe.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Especially Jason isaactually plays Timothy. Every time he told her, no,
I need my phone versus take away all the phone,
She's like, what the hell?
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah, And she essentially poisoned the sun by giving him
all that information.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I know, that was such good s. I think her
best line when she's like good on you and good
on you at first, when Timothy Ratliffe is saying that
his son Saxon works for him and all that sort
of build up just to finish up with Mukan Guytok's
storyline obviously, I mean they come out okay because he
gets the job he wants and she, you know, seems
to be she's with her bad boy. Yeah, she's finally
with a bad boy. We get it, we've all been there.
(21:56):
But did you think that having her in that role
was distracting? That's what some fans have said, Oh.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
That's such a good question. I don't think it was distracting.
I know people who are huge Black Pink fans and
like K pop fans did find it distracting because I
think all they saw was like Lisa, Yeah, and I
do get it, But I feel like she actually didn't
have that big of a role for it to be distracting.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
No, I know, but I think it was her casting.
So it's like, if we put like Taylor Swift in
that role, everyone's like, well, you don't get Taylor Swift
unless her role's going to be massive and I think
a lot of people were saying, like, you don't get
Lisa unless that role is going to be massive. So
as the episodes went on, everyone was just like, she's
like the secret killer, She's got some sort of a
plot she's And when it came out that she was
(22:43):
the character she was presented to us that she wasn't hiding,
she wasn't like a secret mastermind, she wasn't a serial
killer anything like that. People felt kind of cheated. And
it's interesting because I was reading some interviews with the
producers and they were saying that they were really worried
to cast her for that reason, that they thought it
might be distracting, but they just went with it because
when she auditioned, she was really good, and she said
like she's looking to change her career and this was
(23:05):
a new challenge, which I totally get. Like, even if
you're like one of the biggest pop stars in the world,
like she is, a starring role on the White Lotus
is a huge deal. So I kind of get it.
But I don't know, I just I guess I was
never thinking that she was this huge mastermind. I think
she was just there to be in the show. But
I feel like that was the biggest disappointment for a
lot of people. So I thought she was wasted.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I do see that now that you mentioned it, because
thinking back on the last few seasons, everyone is like
they're all a list celebrities, like they're really really famous,
but they're like the same amount of famous.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
So if you're right, if there's one person who's way
more famous than the others, you're like, oh, they're going
to do something crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And I think I see if you're a massive Black
Pink fan, like you would have been like, oh, she's
the one who does something great, she just never does.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Would she be an interesting character and date her bad boy?
Moving on to the trio, that's pretty much stole the show.
So we have Leslie bierbes Kate, Carrie Koon as Laurie,
and Michelle Monagan as a Jacqueline Lemon. No one actually
says her full name. I don't think much throughout the series.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
But she's like the reality stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
She's like a dramatic TV actress. Oh, I thought, yeah,
not a reality TV start. I think that'd be a
whole dif, a whole different show. What's interesting about this is,
at first I think we were all very instantly taken
in by this dynamic, but the actresses themselves are really
worried that their storyline would get pushed aside and forgotten.
Like when I was into ing Leslie Bibb, who plays Kate,
she was saying that that was their big fear because
(24:26):
she's like, our storyline is just this friendship dynamic, and
how do we like honestly communicate together and all this
sort of stuff. And she's like, it's really beautiful, but
how is that going to compete with like shootouts and
murder in incest? And the fact that it did I
think spoke to her like how much we love to
see female friendship depicted on screen.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, And I think they had the extra challenge of
all three of them literally being super rich, beautiful white
women who.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Mike White called them the blonde blob because when they
were together, they all just walked together and merged as
one blonde flob.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
And I think what they did was so well done
was like you could see each of them as individuals
as well as a collective, and I think they each
had really interesting individuals lines, and they all portrayed like
character chures of like every woman's biggest insecurities, because I
could see insecurities of mine in all three characters, Like
(25:19):
not the Trump stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I was gonna say, do you want to share something?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
But other things, and I think them going to like
all three different extremes of like how a woman should
live her life and seeing how it can clash, especially
when you're at that age where exactly what Kerrie Koon's
character like delivered that beautiful monologue in the last episode
that they grow together and then they grow apart and
then they come back together. And I think that never
(25:44):
gets spoken about when it comes to female friendships, and
they portrayed that so well.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, exactly. It was this dynamic. It's so perfectly captured
how so many friendships are, which is a reason that
I felt quite out of step with a lot of
people watching this season because from the moment you saw
these women on screen, particularly in the first episode where
Laurie's the first one to leave because she's tanked a
whole ball of wine, relatable. Yeah, and then they're kind
of like talking about each other and they're talking about
(26:10):
her and they keep saying she's so great, she's so wonderful,
But like, do you think this has happened, all that
sort of stuff, and she can see them gossiping.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Almost became an eye roll for the audience, right, they're like, Oh,
it's these friends who are just pretending to be friends,
but they actually say.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Exactly and all of a sudden, like the online commentary
around that, and also from people who I talk to
in real life would be like, oh my god, those
three toxic women. They're the worst, Like, what a terrible friendship.
And as the season went on, I started feeling really
out of step and like a monster because I'm like,
I don't think it's that bad. Well, I don't think
they've done anything that bad. This to me just seems
like a normal kind of friendship, especially people who've been
(26:45):
together that long. I don't think it was as toxic
as people were saying.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, their friendship like lies in between. What I think
is like between sisters and close friends, and it's that
like scary in between limbo because with sisters, you can
fight yep, knowing that you'll always come back together because
you always do. But with those kind of friendships that
you're so so close, you're always scared of fighting because
(27:10):
you don't have to come back together. And it shows
that when you have lived your lives and have grown
apart so easily, it's almost easier to not come back together. Yeah,
and I think what happens is that you end up
just like bitching to each other, like when the other
ones out of the room. I think Holly Wayne Wright
wrote about this really well. It's like you'll never bitch
about the third person to other people. Yeah, it's specific
(27:33):
to keep.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Within your feenship circle, because then you're talking to other
friends who have the same experience. So it's almost like
again with your siblings, like you can fight, but you
wouldn't let anyone else say something about them, And it's
the same with your friendship group. I think the other
reason people thought this was so toxic and crazy is
that we've come to look at female friendship in particular
on screen in very extreme ways. So for a long
(27:54):
time we had, like, you know, there was no female
friendship on TV, and a lot of us grew up
with like teen shows like A One Tree Hill and
all that sort of stuff, Dawson's Creek, all those kind
of shows where they're were female characters, but they were
always fighting. They were always like fighting over a boy,
like terror things happening to each other. They all had
a guy best friend. We just never really saw those moments.
And then things kind of flipped, and then we started
(28:16):
really romanticizing friendship, especially like millennial women, which obviously is incredible,
but then it was like every female friend I have
is my soulmate and we never fight and we talk
every day and everything's perfect, and you have these really
idolized friendships. And then this was just in between, which
is probably what most friendships are, where it's not this
toxic nastiness, but it's not this like we're together every
(28:39):
day and everything's perfect, and then people don't know how
to handle that.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, And it's also the risk that Laurie took of
like calling them out and putting everything on the table
and being super honest with how she feels, which I
found so confronting because I think it's quite scary to
be that honest with your close friends. Because when you
develop a friendship where you say that you're really really
close because you're always having a good time together and
(29:05):
you tell each other everything and you love each other,
it's like you feel like you can never ever.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Be a drain on them.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, And sometimes like you need to be a drain
on them because they're your people, and like Laurie said,
like they're the only people that she really has. And
I can tell that these three friends obviously they're now
bonded over something that they've experienced dramatically because I literally
saw that guy get shot. But now they're all going
to go back home and they're going to be like,
that was literally the most exhausting holiday of my life. Yeah,
they'll keep doing it over and over again.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, I mean that's the dream. God, if anyone's going
to come back for a new season, I'd love to
see those girls having like a makeup holiday. So much
of their scenes got cut as well, which I just
know is what happens when you have such a big
cast and such a big set and all those kind
of things. And like they actually shot all these scenes
where they go in a lot more to like their
friendship dynamic and their real life, so you hear more
about Jacquelin's marriage, more about Kate's family, and like also
(29:56):
more about her being like a Trump supporter and stuff,
which a lot of that stuff Mike White decided to
pull because when he started writing the show, the election
hadn't happened yet, so he thought it was going to
be talking about like a post Donald Trump world and
he's like, it's a big intense now that he's the
president again. But also there was gonna be this whole
storyline where Laurie had a non binary child and that
was going to be like a big talking point with
(30:17):
the women. So those scenes were filmed but all cut.
So it would have been kind of interesting because sometimes
they seem like they've come back together and to the
audience could seem jarring, but it's because those actual actors
had filmed these scenes of sharing this information.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
So especially when there's so much like background acting, like
you said, of them just like staring at each other sometimes,
Like I wonder with the scenes, and I have read
some of the scenes that have been cut of like
what we're missing in.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Those days exactly so, But I think overall, like incredibly
strong storyline and so good exactly, best like depiction of
friendship ever exactly, most realistic one Alright, getting into everyone's
favorite family of the rat Lifts. So we have Jason
Isaac our messy bestie as Timothy Ratliffe Parker Posey, who again,
(31:01):
I just freaking love that she's having this like I
feel like a new fandom has discovered her. Yeah, because
again she's been an actress for what like over thirty
years something like that. I remember just being obsessed with
her Josie the Pussycats iconic, but also the Blade Trinity,
but also I've got mail like everything, and then like,
did she just Game three? Scream three? She's so good,
she take a break.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
From acting, and then.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I think she's done, Like she's dumb bits and pieces
and I think she took like an extended break or
anything like that. But she kind of just goes with
the rolls in this role. And then the crazy messed
up children Sam Navola as Lachlan Ratlift, Sarah Catherine Hook
as Piper Ratlift, and Patrick Swartznegger our favorite new NEPO
baby as Saxon. What do you need to say about Saxon?
(31:43):
Because I feel like you were quite enamored by him
this season or we freaked out by him.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I can't tell I hate that Patrick.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Swartznegger, No, no, no, because he didn't interview with.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Us that he made me cry. He made me so
sad for him.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh really, he would be thrilled to that actually.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Made me cry, like out of the the last episode
when he was on the beach with Chelsea and they
were talking and then she sees Rick and runs over
to Rick and he looks back on her his face.
I don't know how he did that with his face, Like,
he's actually a brilliant actor.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, that like brought me to tears. Everyone was saying
it was a similar moment that face on the beach
to you know, the end of season two Meghan Fay,
he is Daphne when she blu prim Yeah, when she's acting,
there's a slight twitch of her face and with one twitch,
she realizes my husband had an affair with the woman
I now consider a close friend. And here's what I'm
going to do about it. It's like one second and
(32:36):
it's the same with Patrick Swartznigger and that scene.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
It was absolutely brilliant. And I got a hint that
he was going to be really good this season when
Chelsea called him soulless. Yeah, in the first few episodes
and you can see like that look of his face.
I think he has the best character arc in the
whole season.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That is so interesting because coming into the role first,
Patrick Schwarzenegger was one of the ones who as soon
as he saw White Luis, he said, I'll do it.
I'll do anything, and then the creators told him that
there was going to be an incest scene and they
didn't name names, but apparently there was quite a few
other big name actors in the mixed to that role
who was going to audition and when they heard about
the incest scenes, they pulled out and wouldn't do it,
(33:15):
and Patrick Schwarzenegger's like, put me in there. I'll do
anything pretty much, you know. We also the video of
him crying when he told his family got the role,
and he obviously comes from like a crazy prominent family
on both sides, but he really wanted this role, and
he said that he went in thinking that Saxon was
going to have this big come to Jesus character arc
and he was going to be a changed man. And
so for one of the scenes he went on and
(33:36):
played it like that as if he's a changed man,
and Mike White called cut. And Mike White sounds like
the weirdest like and also most brilliant, but most cutting person.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
He can read the mind.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
He walked around, He's like, what the hell was that?
He's like don't do that. He's like, just so you know,
the show runs for a few months.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Someone told me that I'd cry, you cried on instead
of the White Lotus straight up crying. Okay, that's why
I didn't say that to you in the pod records.
But he's like, what are you doing? You can't do that,
And then Patrick Schortznegg said, I tried to explain, like, no, no, no,
he's a change man.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I'm going to do this. I'm going to show this,
and Mike White was like, just remember this show was
on for a couple of months. Saxon is at this
resort for a week, Like, he cannot change this much.
You gotta pull it back. So it's interesting that we're
seeing the very pulled back version of him having this epiphany.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Well that's the thing, Like you might not even see
it as an epiphany because like right at the end,
what I didn't like is that we didn't really get
to see him. I guess maurn Chelsea's death because you
see him with her pretty much together for like three
days straight, and they become really close, and I feel
like she's taught him so many things, to the point
where he starts reading like.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Reading the biggest plot twist of all.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
But I also when I like sat down with that
thought that I had about how annoyed I was so
where he didn't mourn her death, I was like, maybe
he actually didn't really care, maybe because that's like if
we'd look at him from like I guess, like you said,
they've only been there for a week, for like three
days earlier, he wouldn't care at all.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I think, Yeah, I think people have definitely romanticized that online.
They're like he's a change man because he lost her,
And I was like, he just really wanted to have
sex with her because she didn't want to have sex
with him, and a lot of me and like once,
if they can't use you for like some sort of
like sexual desire, then like they kind of blank you
in their minds.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
So he literally told his brother like he was gonna
take advantage of the girls when they got really really drunk,
and then they ended up happening to him.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I know, Okay, well let's talk about that, because I'm
just like, he's such an unlikable character, and that type
of man is like so unlikable, and it just also
feels so realistic. Interestingly, Amy Lee Wood was saying an
interview that every other cast went back shares something in
common with their character and that's why they were casts.
Like she shares like Chelsea's like optimism, and like she
also loves a good love story and she's a bit yeah, exactly,
(35:45):
And she said. The only two people and the whole
cast who are nothing like their characters at all. Michelle
Monaghan as Jacqueline, She's like nothing like her. There's nothing
to connect the two. And Patrick Schwarzenegger as Saxon. And
I was like, really, because we thought that was just
him being Yeah, his mom had to come out and
be like, he's not like.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Saxon, and I kind of believe it now.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
M I mean, I don't think he's that bad, but I'm.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Sure this actor just so good.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Also, Neo Baby, he's Emily Mornemer's son and he's currently
dating More Apatow as in Judd Apatow And so they're
all little and they're on set with Patrick rest of us,
I know, which it's like Nefo Baby Central behind the
scenes there, but you know, we love these crazy kids.
It's okay, So yes, getting back onto Sexon before we
get to the rest of the family. But he's just
(36:29):
there's so much to say about him. I really felt
sorry for him too. I don't know why. There's just
a patheticness to him through the whole thing that you
can't help but feel sorry for him, even though he's
like the most privileged person there really, because he's so
unburdened by any expectator like looking after a family anything
like that, like his dad is. But he's also so
privileged and just does what he wants. But you do
end up feeling sorry for him.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
And I feel like he did non consentually have sex.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
He did get sexually assaulted, which I feel like we
all skimmed over. Yeah, what did you think? That was
so much build up to that scene?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
So much build up to that scene. I thought it
was going to be way more explicit than it was.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, the same, although it was enough so many people.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Hated it, right, Yeah, I feel like it was expected.
I didn't think it was that big of a deal.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Ah. Yeah. Most people I talked too were just like
so shocked, and I was like, oh, we must watch
some different TV shows because I've seen way worse than this.
It was obviously super shocking because it's also one of
like the few you know, taboo things that like it
doesn't even feel fun to like play with at all,
Like it just still feels taboo no matter what, and.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
It really likes like one percent rich person's like we
don't have sex with.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Us, Yeah, we don't do that. But also I think
because it was done this drug haze, but I think
it was. Yeah, I was trying to think of like
was it just there for like this intense shock value, and.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Kind of shock value was finding out that Lucky did
it purposefully and he wasn't as drunk.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, I mean, well yeah exactly because he was told
he was a people pleaser and that's why Ray said
that I'm a people pleaser, Like that's not what we made.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Saxon's means, just like mortified.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, I just felt like I guess maybe I didn't
love it because it didn't feel like it was building
to anything. It just felt like a punishment for this
really unlikable character. Like it felt like a punishment for
Saxon's so it could be like hah, like we got
him and now he has to go off and like
feel bad about everything. But I didn't love that as
a plot device. It felt kind of empty.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah. I feel like if they went in harder on it, yeah,
no pun attended, then it might have been more interesting.
But I feel like it had no real impact on
him wanting to change.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, but it also made him look just ashamed. But
I think it was almost like Chelsea rejecting him that
was his big change, Yeah, because when she was explaining
that she found him soulless and she found him all
these things, and not that he wanted to change to
be with her, He just wanted to continue tricking her again.
So much of the Rightlift family story got cut, and
it's one of those things where like, obviously could we
didn't even find out exactly what happened with his work. Yeah,
(38:53):
I wonder if that was a Yeah, a lot of
people are angry because they wanted to see the Rightlift
family like reckon with what happened, and they wanted to
see the fall out of it. But I almost think
the way it ended of him just being like, this
is going to happen, and we're still going to be
a family, and all the kids have changed, Like when
you see that first shot of them coming from the
boat in the first episode, Saxon's all like swaggered and
(39:13):
he's sitting up straight and he's like the head of
like where the kids are sitting. And then Piper is
sitting with headphones on, head down, like you know, she's
like there just for a spiritual reason. And on the
way back you can see she's very much just accepted
that she's exactly like this family that she was so
against being part of. And then Lachlan's character is this
like meek, mild little brother on the way over, and
then he's like sitting at the top of the line
(39:34):
and on the way back he's like kind of a
powerful one. But it's actually most of Piper's storyline that
got cut because she's supposed to when she comes back
and deside she doesn't want to live at the monastery. Decide, yeah,
so real. That's the most real for storyline in the whole
things like.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Could I really be eating that every day?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yeah, it's not organic? Again relatable. She was meant to
come back to the resort, decided she was going to
lose her virginity because she was giving up the spirituality,
and she they filmed this that she was supposed to
have a sex scene with Zion, Belinda's son, and that's
when when you see her coming back into the room
later on, her hair's all messed up and she's like
strutting around and they're meant to be like, this is
what happens when you lose your viginity become like a
(40:13):
power kind of woman and stuff. So that was all cut.
And she's also their scene when they're leaving the monastery
where Lachlan goes to her, like they were having that
conversation she's like, I don't want to ruin my life
and she's like this family is so incestuous, and they
cut this bit but he's like, why what have you heard?
So she was meant to almost know what her brothers
(40:34):
had done, which also makes the end scene make a
bit more sense. But if the friendship group was the
most honest depiction of like a women's female friendship, then
I felt this was the most honest depiction of like
generational wealth on like a family that also sees themselves
as like this untouchable pillar of community.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Untouchable's ride just so silly with like how Timothy was
pretty much interviewing each members for family, asking if they
could live without money.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, like trying to kill them off in a different
way yeah, exactly. And also a lot of people were, yeah,
not loving the fact that they have those drinks with
the poison fruit and then they don't get sick. But
then Lachlan, you know, makes the drink in a dirty blender,
which the vibe was like, if you make a drink
and a dirty blender, you deserve to die, but also
very realistic for a teen boy who's probably never washed
a dish in his whole life.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
That's my one thing. I actually wish he died.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
M I guess, oh, no, people are upset, and I
was like, actually, don't care if that kid lives or.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Die, because I think it was I was like stuck
on what Chelsea says at the beginning where she's like,
bad things happen in threes.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
So it felt like three people, yell three main because
three people did die.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
I think more than three people. Yeah, but I wanted
three main people to die.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Interesting well, which leads us into the final scene. How
did you think about the ending with the deaths of
Rick and Chelsea.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
I actually thought it was a bit of a cheap death, really,
is that? I think? Especially Chelsea's like I think you
see Rick and you like think he's going to change,
and then he goes to that therapist for his stress
and he's like, I'm pretty much going to do something bad,
like I need to talk to you, which I think
was such a great look at like the privilege that
they all still have, Like they're all tortured in different ways,
(42:09):
but they all have that same privilege where you have
to help me right now.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah, people at blaming the therapist, and it was like,
let's not blame her for him shooting a man. That's why.
That's crazy if.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
You're blaming her. And then he just ends up shooting
the guy. We find out he's a Sparta, which I
feel like we already.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, I think it was meant to be a huge
plot twist, but then they hamn't at home so much.
You didn't feel like a plot twist, but maybe it
wasn't meant to I don't know.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
And then just her dying like and you're just watching
him see the love that he could have had die,
and then the both of them dying together. I felt
like I've just seen that scene before so many times
that it didn't really hit me.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It was like, what I thought was interesting is a
lot of people are sort of saying like we shouldn't
glamorize their love. Their love was toxic, and it's like, yeah, absolutely,
But that's the interesting part of it is you watch
these two people who were so unsuited, so in this
like love story that shouldn't have worked, but they're caught
up in the like the mythology of their own romance.
And also at the end of the day, like he
(43:05):
just made that decision, as she said, like you can
pick the love you didn't have, or you can have
the love that's right here, and he went the way,
which is just like human nature, and that's why he
lost her in the shootout, and he has this moment
where you know he's trying to save her, and it's
meant to show that he is not this like kind
of villainous person, even though he's just shot dead his
father without knowing. It's meant to give them like a
bit of redemption. And also I think it was meant
(43:26):
to be like tragically beautiful. I don't know if anyone
took it that way, but because when you see in
the first episode their deaths through Zion's eyes and he
sees these bodies floating, and it seems like it'll be
really horrific and that you'll see these like bloody mess
of people floating in the water. But when we finally
get to the last episode and you see their bodies,
it's almost like they're lying peacefully. Yeah, And they're wrapped
around each other like the years Yang smiling the other year. Yeah,
(43:49):
they're wrapped together like a loose depiction of the Ying
and Yang singbol to show that they're two opposites who
have come together. And because they pretty much die side
by side in the water together and their blood's intermingling,
it's meant to show that Chelsea's prediction was correct, that
they'll be together forever in this life and the next.
And so it's almost like they give her a happy
ending because she got what she wanted, but no one
(44:09):
wanted that.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I didn't even put that together. Yeah, And I think
when Rick killed his father, I knew that Rick had
to die because the thing that the White Lotus does
is like someone always gets murdered, but then no one
is ever held accountable. Yeah, Like they're all of this
like esteemed privilege where they will never ever be like
charged or anything. And that's happened from all the seasons,
(44:31):
and that there was no way that Rick could live
without facing.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
The exactly because you either have to have it be
like an accidental death or the person escapes like Greg
or like Rick there also killed in the shootout of
that idea, Yeah, it's almost like every season has to
finish and we can't have this idea that like illegal
proceedings happening afterwards and someone's being charged. It has to
come together in this final moment and that last thing
(44:54):
of them all on the boat going off together. And
I know there's been like a lot of criticism over
like why are so many of them smiling when they
just witness to death, But I think it's also just showing,
like I don't know, the three women were hugging each other,
I thought like they were very much still in like a.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
They were post.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Saw it.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Glory running for her life like she like.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Karacoons, so she's like, sorry, I'm a New Yorker, I
hat gunshots, I run, I know what to do. But
I thought that was also just showing that these people
who had had this week in this crazy place at
the end of the day had changed a little bit,
but not really, They've never changed. They're all just for
like a week they're all the hear of their own story.
They're all like on the boat being like I've a
changed person. I've come back instead of not realizing what's happened.
(45:34):
So look overall, i'd say like a good season, my favorite,
Well again not my favorite, but I still enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
Thank you so much for listening to the Spill today.
The Spill is produced by ned Green with some production
by Scott's Stronik. And we'll be back here on your
podcast feed at three pm on Monday. Bye bye.
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