August 14, 2025 • 45 mins
Recorded during Juneteenth, this episode of Cannabis Enlightened features Dr. Leroy in conversation with appellate attorney and community activist Andrea St. Julian on the future of voting in San Diego. Though released after the holiday, Andrea’s insights on choice voting — from breaking the grip of incumbents to giving voters the power to back the candidates they truly believe in — carry forward the spirit of freedom and civic empowerment year-round.
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Some highlights from this episode include:
00:00:23 – Opening, Sponsors, and Juneteenth Reflections
00:03:18 – Introducing Andrea St. Julian
00:04:15 – From Police Oversight to Choice Voting
00:06:08 – Why the Current Voting System Falls Short
00:09:11 – How Primaries Protect Incumbents
00:14:12 – The Two-Party Grip and Duverger’s Law
00:16:31 – How Choice Voting Empowers Voters
00:23:21 – Who Opposes Choice Voting and Why
00:34:18 – Lessons from Ireland and Positive Campaigning
00:38:24 – The 2028 Ballot Initiative and Call to Action
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:29):
Welcome. Welcome everyone. Welcome to Cannabis Enlighten. To all my listeners.
This is Doctor Leroy, your host. And today we're going
to be discussing an interesting topic that's, you know, at
issue today. Um, and it's probably been an issue over
(00:50):
the years and the decades. Um, but before I get
into that, I got to give some love to those
people that helped make this episode and this entire, this
entire broadcast program make it possible. March and ash. Thank you.
March and ash. Um, they sponsor our program and the
(01:12):
people at Oldest Media Network. My gosh, JC and Lena,
they make it sound like I am a superstar. So
I appreciate all the work that they do all the
time to help this particular program. You know, when, when
I was, um, I guess when I was coming up,
people would say things to you like, hey, what time
(01:33):
is it? What time is it? And the response would be,
it's nation time. And you know, you'd bring you put
your fist up and say it's nation time. Um, this week,
I think I would answer that by saying it's Juneteenth time,
because shortly it will be Thursday the 19th. And we're
(01:54):
reminded with that day and with Juneteenth of the emancipation,
Emancipation Proclamation, which was which was supposed to free the
American slaves. Um, and this emancipation was signed in, you know,
somewhere around 1863. Um, but unfortunately, it didn't reach many
(02:15):
of the brothers and sisters who were enslaved until June 19th, 1865,
two years later. Some of you are saying, well, why
did it reach? Why did it take two years? Well,
I'm going to have to send you to the history
books to be able to find that out. But it's
freedom delayed, freedom denied, which includes the freedom to vote.
(02:39):
Which brings us to our guest we have today. And
she's really not a guest. She's really more than a guest.
She's like a friend, a very good friend of cannabis, enlightened,
and a person who also celebrates Juneteenth. Our friend today.
Our guest today is an appeals attorney, a community activist,
(03:06):
and there's probably a lot of other things that she does, too,
that I don't even know. Um, she's been on our
program several times speaking about different areas, but this time
she's going to be talking about voting. Andrea. Andrea. Saint Julian,
a huge welcome to you.
S2 (03:23):
Thank you, Doctor Leroy.
S1 (03:25):
I appreciate she has that voice. She's He's going to
use that voice today. Ladies and gentlemen. Uh, thank you
for being here with us and agreeing to talk about voting.
S2 (03:36):
Yes.
S1 (03:36):
Okay. And I remember you and I had a brief
conversation a few weeks ago, and this was a topic
of discussion for you. You were talking about voting, and
one of the things that I had said to you
was like, what difference does the choice voting make? Or more,
more than anything, what's wrong with the voting process? Why
(03:59):
do we need a different way of voting? So before
I'm going to let you answer that, I know there
might be 1 or 2 people out there somewhere in
the world that don't know who you are and what
you do, beyond being an appeals attorney and a community activist.
So please introduce yourself to our audience.
S2 (04:20):
I definitely will. So my name is Andrea Saint Julian. Uh,
as Doctor Brady said. I'm an appellate attorney, but I
actually spend most of my time doing social justice work
through two organizations that I co-founded. The first organization is
San Diegans for justice, and the second organization is the
(04:43):
Justice Workshop. They are sister organizations, and right now both
organizations have as their lead campaign, bringing choice voting to
the City of San Diego. But there's a little bit
of history. San Diegans for justice was created as a
(05:03):
result of a proposed charter amendment that I principally authored
several years ago, many years ago, in fact. And this
proposed charter amendment was to create what we called the
Commission on Police Practices. This was a commission to oversee
complaints against San Diego City Police officers, so I and
(05:29):
community members throughout San Diego and other organizations worked to
bring this charter amendment, get it on the ballot and
then get it passed. And it was passed in 2020. Wow. Yeah.
Passed with 75% of the vote, which was an overwhelming
(05:50):
victory for us, I guess. And, uh, that victory is
what led us to choice voting.
S1 (06:00):
Well, it sounds like it sounds like you were pleased
with the outcome of that initiative, and it seemed like
the voting went okay. Why? Why do we need more
focus on voting?
S2 (06:13):
Yeah. So the work of getting that first proposed charter
amendment on the ballot was long and very hard. We
had so much grassroots support, so much support from San Diegans.
And despite that, elected officials fought back and fought for
(06:38):
many years to keep us from putting it on the ballot.
S1 (06:40):
You're kidding.
S2 (06:41):
No. They fought long and hard, but we finally got
it on the ballot when we won with 75% of
the vote. Electeds now publicly said, oh, we're big supporters
of the Commission on Police Practices. Big supporters. Okay, okay.
But behind closed doors, they continued to fight against the commission.
(07:08):
And it was at that point I thought to myself,
how is it that elected officials can feel entitled to
fight against something not only that is in the best
interests of San Diegans, but that San Diegans voted in
favor of overwhelmingly. That was that was the question that
(07:31):
I felt I needed to answer because it made no
sense to me. And even though it didn't make sense
to me, I had a feeling that there is a
lot of that in our government. And so I thought,
let me drill down and figure out what causes this.
And that led me on a journey over the past
(07:55):
five years of research, talking to experts, talking to individuals
and community members. And the thing that I came to
actually very quickly, I came to learn that our voting system,
our current voting system, actually incentivizes electeds to ignore the
(08:22):
will of voters.
S1 (08:23):
So wait a minute. Because I'm struck by this. Yeah.
I've known you for a minute already. Yeah. I don't
know if I've known you for five years.
S2 (08:32):
Okay.
S1 (08:32):
Maybe close.
S2 (08:33):
Okay.
S1 (08:33):
Okay. But you've been working on this particular topic on
voting for five years.
S2 (08:40):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
S1 (08:42):
Okay, so that so that means that you've been doing
this along with all your other attorney duties.
S2 (08:50):
Yeah. And also help and also doing everything we can
to support the Commission on Police Practices, because we're still
working very hard to support it. We have to work
to fend off attacks by local by by local electeds.
S1 (09:09):
So the word spare time does not exist in Europe?
S2 (09:12):
No, it does not exist for me at all. Okay.
That that just does not exist.
S1 (09:16):
Okay. What does what does the choice voting?
S2 (09:22):
Yes.
S1 (09:23):
What does it look like?
S2 (09:24):
Okay. Well, so in terms of what it looks like,
if you don't mind, I'd like to first start out
by talking about what our current voting system looks like
and and what it produces.
S1 (09:39):
Well, we know what it produces.
S2 (09:40):
Yeah.
S1 (09:41):
No.
S2 (09:41):
Go ahead. Yeah. No, it it it incentivizes electeds to
do certain things that are contrary to the interests of voters.
S1 (09:51):
Okay.
S2 (09:51):
And I think probably one of the biggest things is
what people may already know. For example, electeds are now
incentivized by our current voting system to listen primarily to
special interests and large dollar donors. Okay. And that's because
of the structure of how we vote. It's not it's
(10:14):
not just natural, okay? It's not inevitable. It's not something
that has to happen. It's something that's incentivized by our
voting structure. Okay? Our voting structure also really favors incumbents,
even when people are dissatisfied, even when a significant portion
(10:40):
of the electorate is dissatisfied with the performance of a
of an elected. Our voting system supports keeping that incumbent
in office. It makes it difficult for us to vote
them out.
S1 (10:52):
Is that because of name recognition?
S2 (10:54):
No. Name recognition is something totally different. Name recognition is
always going to be a factor. But no, there are
additional factors that help them stay in office. And let
me give you one example.
S1 (11:08):
All right.
S2 (11:09):
Primaries. All right.
S1 (11:11):
Okay.
S2 (11:12):
So primaries take take place earlier in the election cycle
than the ultimate general election okay. When you have a
primary and you have an incumbent, it is very easy
for an incumbent to bring out their base supporters in
a primary. I see. And because fewer people vote in
(11:36):
a primary, it makes it easier for the incumbent to
win in a primary than a new person coming in
and trying to unseat the incumbent. Another thing that is
really horrible about primaries is that because it's so early
in that election cycle, the incumbent has a a pre,
(11:59):
I don't want to say predetermined, but they have already
had an opportunity to build a war chest.
S1 (12:05):
Okay.
S2 (12:06):
Which a new person hasn't had enough time to build
the financial support they need to win. And so the
fact that we have primaries really, really supports incumbents and come.
Incumbents love primaries. Not just because of that, but we
pay for primaries, which in fact act like a poll
(12:31):
for the incumbents. They use the results of a primary
to help focus on what they need to do for
the general election. So we are actually holding primaries that
are detrimental for us and do nothing, really, uh, particularly
(12:51):
when you move to choice voting and, and, and do
nothing more than act as a free survey and poll
for incumbents and people who make it to the general election.
S1 (13:05):
Well, can I add the point that it seems to
me and you can verify this. Each party has their primaries.
And if we're talking about Democrats and Republicans, each one
has their own primary before the general election or the
main election.
S2 (13:23):
Well, um.
S1 (13:25):
Is that correct?
S2 (13:25):
This choice. We're bringing choice voting to the city of
San Diego. Okay. And so in the city, the city
has a primary that the county runs for the city.
And we have, um, a top two, the top two.
Then go on to the general election.
S1 (13:45):
In either party.
S2 (13:46):
In either party, they can both be from the Democratic Party.
They can both be from Republican Party. They could both
be from the Green Party. Okay. You know what? Whatever party. Um,
although I say the Green Party a little tongue in
cheek because, again, our current voting system does everything it
can to prevent third parties from being elected. In fact, it's, um,
(14:12):
it is, you know, everything about voting is math, right?
It's it's all numbers.
S1 (14:18):
Yeah.
S2 (14:18):
Um, if you look at something called Duverger's Law, it
explains why when you have our current voting system, that
you're going to get a duopoly of just the two
of just two parties. And that it crowds out other parties,
you know. So all those non-party preference people who might
(14:42):
like to vote for another party, the current voting system
is essentially what's stopping you from being able to do that?
S1 (14:51):
Now, Andre, is that because, um, this law or maybe
there's a rule in the election that says you have
to have such a certain percentage in order to be
included in the vote?
S2 (15:06):
Well, yeah. And I think I want to go back
and correct something that I said, you can anybody can vote.
Anybody can run for the office of city office and
anybody can vote for them. The thing that makes it
difficult is people who are non-incumbents, who may be Democrats
or Republicans, but not in the inner circle of either party.
(15:32):
And also third parties. It gives it it. Our current
voting system makes it difficult for any of those people
to actually be elected, you know. Okay. And that is
a real problem in terms of change. Because if you
create a playing field where anyone on the outside, so
(15:55):
to speak, is going to have a really difficult time
of being elected, you've essentially rigged the game and you
can keep in a small cluster of people. Um, in
terms of who is likely to be elected.
S1 (16:12):
And you're saying that that does not exist within choice voting.
S2 (16:18):
Choice voting is fabulous at addressing many of those. And
let me be clear there is nothing that is perfect.
There is no voting system that is absolutely perfect. Okay,
but choice voting very much addresses many, many of these issues.
S1 (16:36):
Okay. What's the most dominant way it addresses it that
our listeners can say, oh yeah, I got it, I
get it.
S2 (16:42):
Yeah. And this is I'll give this example first because
there are a few I can talk about, but I'll
give you one.
S1 (16:49):
I bet you have quite.
S2 (16:50):
A few, but I'll give you one that I think
really resonates with people. Uh, when I go and look
at a particular race, let's say there are five people
running for mayor.
S1 (17:05):
Okay?
S2 (17:05):
Okay. Oftentimes there's one person who I love. They share
my values. I think they're a wonderful person. I think
they could do a good job. And almost inevitably, that
person is considered to have absolutely no chance of winning. None. Okay.
(17:27):
But I really want to vote for them because I
think they're fabulous, you know? And then there are other
people running and there's somebody. Okay. Yeah, I could vote
for them. You know, they they would be my second choice.
But then there's another person who I absolutely hate, who
I think is evil incarnate. And I don't want to
(17:49):
vote for that person.
S1 (17:50):
Okay.
S2 (17:52):
When I go to the polls, who am I going
to feel compelled to vote for? Under this system, I
would be afraid to vote for my the person I
really love, because I would be afraid that I'm actually
giving away my vote to that person I hate, or
that my vote is going to be wasted.
S1 (18:12):
Oh.
S2 (18:12):
You're right, my vote would be wasted if I voted
for this person who has almost no chance to win.
And then that would make me really afraid that this
person I hate might win. So what I often end
up doing is I vote for the person that I
you know, that is not my first choice, but at
least I like them a whole lot better than the
(18:33):
person I hate, right? So. Under choice voting, you will
never have to make that decision again. Ever.
S1 (18:44):
How so?
S2 (18:45):
So in choice voting, instead of just voting for one candidate,
you get to rank your candidates in order of preference.
So you find out. You decide who you want the most,
who you love, who your values align with, and you
put them down as your first choice and then as
(19:06):
your second choice. In the example that I just gave you,
I would probably put that person that you know I
was okay with. Looks like he has a real chance
of winning, or she has a real chance of winning,
and I'll put them as my number two. And then
I'll go on on down the line with a 3
or 4 and then maybe a five. You know, I
(19:27):
may not rank the person I hate at all, but, um,
and so the beauty happens when they start counting the votes,
so they'll count all the votes. If my first choice
has absolutely no way of winning after they've counted the votes,
then guess what? They will take my vote and they'll
(19:50):
move it down to my second choice. So it will
count for my second choice. My vote will no longer
be wasted because I voted for the person I like
the most. And so we don't. We won't have wasted
ballots anymore, and we will never have to to vote
(20:10):
for the lesser of two evils. I'll never have to
do a lesser of two evils again, and neither will
anybody else. And this frees up people to vote for
for the candidate they really like. And eventually those those
people that we really like who at this point have
little chance of winning eventually when we are all comfortable
(20:34):
and voting our true values, instead of being people who
don't have a chance of being voted in, they can
actually be voted in.
S1 (20:44):
Now, doesn't the person that your first choice, let's say,
have to have like 51%? Isn't there a percentage they
have to have before the vote goes to the next person?
S2 (20:58):
Uh, no. No. In the mayor example that I gave you, um, we, uh,
in the example I gave you, let's say that, you know,
one person got 40%, and then the rest were distributed
throughout the remaining four candidates. They will keep eliminating candidates
(21:20):
until one of those candidates gets 50% plus one.
S1 (21:25):
Uh, okay. Okay. That's where that percentage comes in.
S2 (21:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (21:28):
So if you're if your first choice gets that.
S2 (21:32):
If it gets it immediately. Yeah. On the first round,
then it's all over.
S1 (21:36):
That means a lot of people had made that their
first choice.
S2 (21:39):
That means 50 plus one have made that 50% plus
one have made that their first choice. You know. And
that would be great. You know, that doesn't often happen.
You know, it may, you know, but, um, sometimes you
have to, to, to do more. But it would be
it's great if that person has such an overwhelming vote
(22:00):
that they win on the first round of counting.
S1 (22:03):
So it sounds like it's conceivable for the second or third,
your second or third choice to reach that 51%?
S2 (22:11):
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and again, the beauty of it
is twofold. One, your vote isn't going to be wasted
just because the person you really liked can't get elected.
But also, your vote will. Will you still have the
opportunity to choose who's going to be mayor, even if
(22:34):
your first choice doesn't count? Because you'll have a second
choice or third choice?
S1 (22:40):
So this is going to eliminate because I've heard a
lot of people say, well, I'm not going to vote
because my vote doesn't count or it doesn't matter anyway.
They give me that anyway kind of thing. This process,
it seems like it stops that.
S2 (22:55):
Exactly, exactly. It empowers voters much, much more. Okay. And
and that is why choice voting is so powerful. It
gives us so much more power. And it gives and
it gives us power, not just in the process of voting,
but it supports candidates in being more accountable to us
(23:19):
as voters because we have more power in who we
choose as as our mayor, for example.
S1 (23:26):
Well, let me let me step over on the other
side and say, um, why would someone or what benefit
would a person have for keeping it the way it
is right now?
S2 (23:37):
Yeah, unfortunately there would be benefits to very, very, very
few people. Um, but those people are powerful people who
like being in power and like grassroots voters and just
voters at large, not having the power that they should. Yeah.
(23:59):
And that that is really the issue. So part of
choice voting, because I don't think I made this clear,
is not just that you rank the voting. But another
important part is that we're getting rid of primaries.
S1 (24:12):
Okay. Yeah.
S2 (24:13):
We did talk, so I. Yeah. Since I talked about primaries,
I just wanted to make that very clear. And getting
back to who wouldn't like it? Let's say clearly incumbents
aren't going to like it. It makes it easier to
vote them out. And incumbent isn't going to want to
change this, right? They they are great at working this system.
(24:36):
This system benefits them. It doesn't benefit the voters. It
benefits them. And they're going to hate getting rid of primaries,
you know, in terms of voters. When you have choice voting,
primaries are just pure evil, right? They are pure evil.
They again, they favor incumbents. Uh, they crowd out newer candidates,
(25:02):
you know, and make it difficult in terms of fundraising.
But they greatly benefit incumbents On all the ways we
talked about before. So yeah, incumbents don't want to get
rid of it. And also all of those people who
make millions of dollars from running primary campaigns, oh, they
(25:22):
are going to hate getting rid of primaries, right.
S1 (25:26):
All right.
S2 (25:27):
Yeah. No. And also, let's be clear, primaries cost millions
of dollars. Sure. So we're paying millions of dollars to
keep incumbents in office, make it more difficult for them
to get it out and also get them out. And
then also to do free polling for incumbents. Right.
S1 (25:47):
Does it make. Yeah. But Andrea, does it make, um,
non-incumbent people have to work harder because it sounds to
me like the, the, the particular process you're talking about, um,
is going to require more funding for people to get
out there and campaign.
S2 (26:06):
Actually, no, I don't I don't think that it is
going to require them to have more funding. It will.
It will actually do the opposite. They won't have to
expend as much energy to unseat an incumbent as they
would have before.
S1 (26:27):
All right.
S2 (26:27):
It is going to be easier. They're going to have
a much easier time unseating an incumbent than they do now.
S1 (26:35):
I see.
S2 (26:36):
Right. So so they are going to have a little
more time to fundraise. They are going to have a
little more encouragement in terms of being able to run
for office. And I have to tell you this, there
are several people in this city who would like to
(26:57):
run for office who I think would be great for
running for office, and all of them have said to me, oh, Andrea,
I'm going to run as soon as we get choice
voting in, because I because I really believe that I
connect and can connect with voters, and choice voting will
give me a vehicle to be able to win with
(27:18):
the support that that community members and San Diegans will
give me.
S1 (27:23):
So is this a way of of also making candidates? Um,
not not a candidate anymore, but an elected official more accountable?
S2 (27:33):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. If you can vote them out more easily,
if they have less structures that help them stay in
place even when they're not performing well, all of a
sudden they become much more accountable to voters. And that
is one of the most important parts about, um, about
(27:56):
choice voting.
S3 (28:03):
Hey, we're going to pause the conversation for a second.
We'll be back with more of the show right after this.
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S3 (29:32):
Hey, let's pick up where we left off. Back to
the show.
S1 (29:35):
Well, I've got a few terms here. I've got choice voting.
Ranked choice voting.
S2 (29:40):
Yep.
S1 (29:41):
More choice voting.
S2 (29:43):
Yep.
S1 (29:43):
And this new one that I just found. Instant runoff voting.
S2 (29:47):
Yeah. IVR instant voting runoff.
S1 (29:50):
Are they all the same or are they different?
S2 (29:52):
Okay, so ranked choice voting is an umbrella term. Okay.
S1 (29:57):
Okay.
S2 (29:57):
There are a lot of different ways to actually implement
ranked choice voting. Okay. So if you think of that
as an umbrella term That's that's the best way to
understand what the term ranked choice voting is.
S1 (30:14):
Okay.
S2 (30:15):
The core of any form of ranked choice voting is
that you rank your candidates in order of preference. That's
true for any ranked choice voting style of voting. Okay.
There are a lot of little different ways to implement
that though. Again, these are all numbers, so you can
have little differences. For example, one easy difference can be
(30:41):
you have to make a determination, for example, as to
how many candidates you can rank. Some places that have
a form of ranked choice voting allow voters to rank
every single candidate. Some say that you can rank ten candidates.
Some say you can rank five candidates. So every different
(31:04):
jurisdiction is going to have Decide differently what they want.
And that's just one of the examples of how that's
going to be different. More choice is under the umbrella
of ranked choice voting, but we give it its own
name of choice voting for a couple of reasons. One,
(31:26):
we want people to understand that this is ranked choice
voting for San Diego. And so it has its own
name choice voting is what we are bringing to San Diego. Okay.
And the other, at least one of the other reasons
why we call it choice voting is we did a
(31:48):
really deep dive as to what San Diego's wanted in
terms of their government, in terms of voting. About two
years ago, we held several forums throughout the city asking
community members, what do you want to see in our
local government? What concerns do you have? Tell us a
(32:08):
little bit about voting, you know. And on top of that,
I can't even tell you how many dozens of of
of individual conversations we've had with community members on how
they're feeling. You know, and what they want. I was
also a part of a coalition where we did, um,
(32:30):
a survey of of San Diegans, and it was a
professionally done survey. 60% said they were in favor of
bringing some form of ranked choice voting to San Diego. Okay.
So we took all that information that we got from
community members, and I then started gathering information from experts
(32:55):
from literally around the world. And of course, as I
said earlier, I did research myself and on on different
forms of voting. So after that, got a sense of, okay,
how do we bring to San Diego's what they want
based on the research and, and, and expert input that
(33:19):
we've got gotten. So, you know, I designed something I
worked with, as I said, literally from experts around the world,
attorneys from around the country, mathematician and Australia and at
Columbia to come up with something that would meet the
needs of San Diegans. And that's how we came up
(33:42):
with choice voting. So we like to use the word
choice also, because it is really the best form of
voting for San Diego.
S1 (33:53):
Where where is it used now?
S2 (33:56):
Yeah, it is used in 63. Well, let me let
me say this a form of ranked choice voting is
used in at least 63 jurisdictions throughout the United States.
S1 (34:09):
Really?
S2 (34:09):
Oh my gosh. Yes. And it is used all over
the world. I mean, it's it's used all over the world.
Whenever a jurisdiction looks at their old voting system and
decides to change it. It is very often they're going
to come up with some form of ranked choice voting
(34:34):
because of how how effective it is.
S1 (34:39):
Sure.
S2 (34:39):
And, um, so. Yeah. Um, Portland, Oregon has a, uh,
a form of ranked choice voting that is very similar
to choice voting. Albany, California uses something that is similar
or has a form of ranked choice voting. San Francisco
and Oakland as well.
S1 (35:00):
Wow.
S2 (35:01):
Cambridge, Massachusetts for decades has had something very similar to
choice voting and didn't.
S1 (35:08):
I recently read something about New York's.
S2 (35:10):
New York was a beautiful, beautiful.
S1 (35:12):
Example. The mayor contest.
S2 (35:14):
Yeah. Let me let me, uh. Almost exactly a year ago,
I went to Ireland with a delegation of about 40
people to observe elections in Ireland. And Ireland has a
form of voting, again, very similar to choice voting. And
while I was there, we were able to talk to
(35:37):
professors and experts and candidates and elected officials. We went
to both, uh, Parliament in Ireland itself and also the
parliament in the, the English Parliament and the six counties
of Ulster. And, um, while we were there, there was
a particular race, uh, and a group of people were
running for something similar to a city council.
S1 (36:00):
Okay.
S2 (36:01):
There were a number of people running. They were running
against each other. Three of them were women. Okay, one
of those women got sick and she couldn't campaign. The
two women who were running against her went out and
started campaigning for her.
S1 (36:23):
Hmm. Okay.
S2 (36:25):
Okay. That is something that you would never see. And
the reason and and how I. And the reason why
I give this story is that. Our current our current
voting system almost requires electeds to campaign negatively against each other. Yeah.
(36:45):
And it also, it also incentivizes them to be very
negative with each other once they get elected. Choice voting
does the exact opposite. It incentivizes candidates to work together.
It incentivizes electeds to work together. And let me give
you an example of why these two women in Ireland
(37:07):
campaigned for this woman who was sick. What they would
do is, for example, they'd go and knock on a
door and say, hi, I'm running for city council. I'd
like for you to vote for me as your first choice.
And let's say, um, that person says, oh no, no,
I there's somebody I want to vote for my first choice.
(37:29):
The candidate is not going to say, oh, don't vote
for that first choice. I hate them, I can't stand them.
So they're going to say, oh no, no, no, they're
going to say, yeah, I agree with who you're voting
for as your first choice on this, this and this.
If you won't vote for me for your first choice,
vote for me for your second choice.
S1 (37:47):
Oh, okay.
S2 (37:48):
And that's how they work together. And then they'll then
one of the women in Ireland will say, and please
vote for this other candidate is your third choice. She
is very much in line with what I am doing
and also with what your first choice is doing. That
is the positive campaigning that takes place under choice voting.
And also it is an issue oriented campaign as opposed
(38:13):
to a negative mudslinging campaign. That's one of the things
that choice voting does just so beautifully.
S1 (38:20):
You know, I've heard so many people talk about, yeah,
but I want to hear about the issues. I want
to hear about the issues. And instead of that, all
they hear is back and forth, back and forth. Um,
as you mentioned, negative campaigning and people walk away disgusted.
I don't know if they voted, but I know they
were disappointed in the forum that they were in. And
(38:43):
you know, what you have outlined sounds a lot more positive.
S2 (38:47):
It is much more positive. And it is very it
is so strong and true about that. It really gets
rid of negative campaigning. It is just Spectacular in this way,
and it pivots candidates and electeds to really focusing on
(39:08):
the issues as opposed to just posturing, because under our
current voting system, posturing is what gets them elected and
what raises their support. So I actually feel sorry for Electeds.
It's the voting system that almost requires them to do it.
You know, even if they didn't want to, they almost
(39:28):
have to.
S1 (39:31):
You know, this has been very informative. You know, I
have learned a lot more about choice voting than I
knew before. And it's all because of the way you
have explained it, outlined it, and just overall made it
very easy to understand. However, I would really like to
have you come back and. Sure. And because I feel
(39:53):
like there's more that you want to say. And why
do I feel that way?
S2 (40:00):
There's always more I can say.
S1 (40:02):
Always more. And if, say.
S2 (40:03):
If there's just one thing, one other little thing that
I can say.
S1 (40:07):
Absolutely.
S2 (40:07):
We are putting choice voting. Choice voting on the ballot
in 2028. We are doing it by a ballot initiative,
which means we need to get citizens, voters, community members
to sign up to support the petition. So I would
ask everyone who is listening to this podcast to go
(40:29):
to the justice workshops. And as soon as you get
on that website, a pop up will appear where you
can sign up to sign the petition when it becomes available.
Of course, it's not going to be available officially until
the last quarter of 2027, but before then, over the
next two and a half years, we have got to
(40:51):
get tens of thousands of people to sign up and
say they they will sign the petition when it becomes available.
So Please, please go to the justice workshop and and
sign up.
S1 (41:07):
So, um, before we, we we end the program. Are
there any events that people can go to that are
coming up in which they could either see you or, um,
get in touch with someone?
S2 (41:22):
Yeah.
S1 (41:22):
About choice voting.
S2 (41:24):
And we will be having events, but we can always
make events come to you. Um, I will give a
presentation to any organization or a sufficiently large number of
people that includes neighborhood, you know, get togethers or friends
who want to get together. We'll come and talk to
you about choice voting. Just go on to the The
(41:46):
Justice Workshop org and let us know that you'd like
to come and us to come and speak to your group.
And we will be there.
S1 (41:56):
And I can personally verify I've seen Andrea work, um,
at a, um, a Sunday on a community event. It
was late in the evening and she came. People had
been socializing and having fun. Andrea came on the microphone,
got everybody's attention, and I'm telling you, it was quiet
(42:17):
while she was talking. And I believe you got everybody's
signature that was there.
S2 (42:21):
Yeah. People were. People were wonderful. One of the things
that's so encouraging is how many people really want to
see this kind of change. And, and, and as a
social justice advocate, that's where I think my responsibility is.
I have to look at what community members want, and
(42:42):
then I try to figure out a way, how do
I create a structure that allows them to move forward
on the change they want to see? And choice voting
is one of those, and it's so foundational. Think of
all the things that can't happen because we don't have
an appropriate structure for our candidates and electeds. It is
(43:05):
foundational to everything that happens in our governments.
S1 (43:09):
I think those are magnificent closing remarks, the change they
want to see. Andrea, thank you very much for being
my guest here today. I really appreciate you spending the
time talking about choice voting. And I know some of
the many of the listeners are going to take you
up on contacting you and getting you to come out
(43:33):
and talk to a group of, of their friends or
at an event that they're attending. Um, so there might
be a chance for some more signatures.
S2 (43:43):
Thank you.
S1 (43:44):
Thank you very much for being my guest. And thank
all of you for listening to Cannabis Enlightened. This has
been not only fun filled, but it has been extremely
interesting to hear about choice voting an option, an alternative
to the voting that we have right now. And remember,
you can listen to this episode and all the cannabis
(44:08):
enlightened episodes on the oldest media network and also Spotify.
And if you want to get in contact with me
to give some comments or suggestions about maybe future shows
or the shows that you've heard already, feel free to
contact me at Doctor Leroy at enlightened. That's Doctor Leroy
(44:31):
at Enlightened Comm. And remember, remember, Juneteenth is an important
day for you to stop and pay homage, to give
honor to our ancestors and embrace the cannabis enlightened slogan
that knowledge is power.
Welcome. Welcome everyone. Welcome to Cannabis Enlighten. To all my listeners.
This is Doctor Leroy, your host. And today we're going
to be discussing an interesting topic that's, you know, at
issue today. Um, and it's probably been an issue over
(00:50):
the years and the decades. Um, but before I get
into that, I got to give some love to those
people that helped make this episode and this entire, this
entire broadcast program make it possible. March and ash. Thank you.
March and ash. Um, they sponsor our program and the
(01:12):
people at Oldest Media Network. My gosh, JC and Lena,
they make it sound like I am a superstar. So
I appreciate all the work that they do all the
time to help this particular program. You know, when, when
I was, um, I guess when I was coming up,
people would say things to you like, hey, what time
(01:33):
is it? What time is it? And the response would be,
it's nation time. And you know, you'd bring you put
your fist up and say it's nation time. Um, this week,
I think I would answer that by saying it's Juneteenth time,
because shortly it will be Thursday the 19th. And we're
(01:54):
reminded with that day and with Juneteenth of the emancipation,
Emancipation Proclamation, which was which was supposed to free the
American slaves. Um, and this emancipation was signed in, you know,
somewhere around 1863. Um, but unfortunately, it didn't reach many
(02:15):
of the brothers and sisters who were enslaved until June 19th, 1865,
two years later. Some of you are saying, well, why
did it reach? Why did it take two years? Well,
I'm going to have to send you to the history
books to be able to find that out. But it's
freedom delayed, freedom denied, which includes the freedom to vote.
(02:39):
Which brings us to our guest we have today. And
she's really not a guest. She's really more than a guest.
She's like a friend, a very good friend of cannabis, enlightened,
and a person who also celebrates Juneteenth. Our friend today.
Our guest today is an appeals attorney, a community activist,
(03:06):
and there's probably a lot of other things that she does, too,
that I don't even know. Um, she's been on our
program several times speaking about different areas, but this time
she's going to be talking about voting. Andrea. Andrea. Saint Julian,
a huge welcome to you.
S2 (03:23):
Thank you, Doctor Leroy.
S1 (03:25):
I appreciate she has that voice. She's He's going to
use that voice today. Ladies and gentlemen. Uh, thank you
for being here with us and agreeing to talk about voting.
S2 (03:36):
Yes.
S1 (03:36):
Okay. And I remember you and I had a brief
conversation a few weeks ago, and this was a topic
of discussion for you. You were talking about voting, and
one of the things that I had said to you
was like, what difference does the choice voting make? Or more,
more than anything, what's wrong with the voting process? Why
(03:59):
do we need a different way of voting? So before
I'm going to let you answer that, I know there
might be 1 or 2 people out there somewhere in
the world that don't know who you are and what
you do, beyond being an appeals attorney and a community activist.
So please introduce yourself to our audience.
S2 (04:20):
I definitely will. So my name is Andrea Saint Julian. Uh,
as Doctor Brady said. I'm an appellate attorney, but I
actually spend most of my time doing social justice work
through two organizations that I co-founded. The first organization is
San Diegans for justice, and the second organization is the
(04:43):
Justice Workshop. They are sister organizations, and right now both
organizations have as their lead campaign, bringing choice voting to
the City of San Diego. But there's a little bit
of history. San Diegans for justice was created as a
(05:03):
result of a proposed charter amendment that I principally authored
several years ago, many years ago, in fact. And this
proposed charter amendment was to create what we called the
Commission on Police Practices. This was a commission to oversee
complaints against San Diego City Police officers, so I and
(05:29):
community members throughout San Diego and other organizations worked to
bring this charter amendment, get it on the ballot and
then get it passed. And it was passed in 2020. Wow. Yeah.
Passed with 75% of the vote, which was an overwhelming
(05:50):
victory for us, I guess. And, uh, that victory is
what led us to choice voting.
S1 (06:00):
Well, it sounds like it sounds like you were pleased
with the outcome of that initiative, and it seemed like
the voting went okay. Why? Why do we need more
focus on voting?
S2 (06:13):
Yeah. So the work of getting that first proposed charter
amendment on the ballot was long and very hard. We
had so much grassroots support, so much support from San Diegans.
And despite that, elected officials fought back and fought for
(06:38):
many years to keep us from putting it on the ballot.
S1 (06:40):
You're kidding.
S2 (06:41):
No. They fought long and hard, but we finally got
it on the ballot when we won with 75% of
the vote. Electeds now publicly said, oh, we're big supporters
of the Commission on Police Practices. Big supporters. Okay, okay.
But behind closed doors, they continued to fight against the commission.
(07:08):
And it was at that point I thought to myself,
how is it that elected officials can feel entitled to
fight against something not only that is in the best
interests of San Diegans, but that San Diegans voted in
favor of overwhelmingly. That was that was the question that
(07:31):
I felt I needed to answer because it made no
sense to me. And even though it didn't make sense
to me, I had a feeling that there is a
lot of that in our government. And so I thought,
let me drill down and figure out what causes this.
And that led me on a journey over the past
(07:55):
five years of research, talking to experts, talking to individuals
and community members. And the thing that I came to
actually very quickly, I came to learn that our voting system,
our current voting system, actually incentivizes electeds to ignore the
(08:22):
will of voters.
S1 (08:23):
So wait a minute. Because I'm struck by this. Yeah.
I've known you for a minute already. Yeah. I don't
know if I've known you for five years.
S2 (08:32):
Okay.
S1 (08:32):
Maybe close.
S2 (08:33):
Okay.
S1 (08:33):
Okay. But you've been working on this particular topic on
voting for five years.
S2 (08:40):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
S1 (08:42):
Okay, so that so that means that you've been doing
this along with all your other attorney duties.
S2 (08:50):
Yeah. And also help and also doing everything we can
to support the Commission on Police Practices, because we're still
working very hard to support it. We have to work
to fend off attacks by local by by local electeds.
S1 (09:09):
So the word spare time does not exist in Europe?
S2 (09:12):
No, it does not exist for me at all. Okay.
That that just does not exist.
S1 (09:16):
Okay. What does what does the choice voting?
S2 (09:22):
Yes.
S1 (09:23):
What does it look like?
S2 (09:24):
Okay. Well, so in terms of what it looks like,
if you don't mind, I'd like to first start out
by talking about what our current voting system looks like
and and what it produces.
S1 (09:39):
Well, we know what it produces.
S2 (09:40):
Yeah.
S1 (09:41):
No.
S2 (09:41):
Go ahead. Yeah. No, it it it incentivizes electeds to
do certain things that are contrary to the interests of voters.
S1 (09:51):
Okay.
S2 (09:51):
And I think probably one of the biggest things is
what people may already know. For example, electeds are now
incentivized by our current voting system to listen primarily to
special interests and large dollar donors. Okay. And that's because
of the structure of how we vote. It's not it's
(10:14):
not just natural, okay? It's not inevitable. It's not something
that has to happen. It's something that's incentivized by our
voting structure. Okay? Our voting structure also really favors incumbents,
even when people are dissatisfied, even when a significant portion
(10:40):
of the electorate is dissatisfied with the performance of a
of an elected. Our voting system supports keeping that incumbent
in office. It makes it difficult for us to vote
them out.
S1 (10:52):
Is that because of name recognition?
S2 (10:54):
No. Name recognition is something totally different. Name recognition is
always going to be a factor. But no, there are
additional factors that help them stay in office. And let
me give you one example.
S1 (11:08):
All right.
S2 (11:09):
Primaries. All right.
S1 (11:11):
Okay.
S2 (11:12):
So primaries take take place earlier in the election cycle
than the ultimate general election okay. When you have a
primary and you have an incumbent, it is very easy
for an incumbent to bring out their base supporters in
a primary. I see. And because fewer people vote in
(11:36):
a primary, it makes it easier for the incumbent to
win in a primary than a new person coming in
and trying to unseat the incumbent. Another thing that is
really horrible about primaries is that because it's so early
in that election cycle, the incumbent has a a pre,
(11:59):
I don't want to say predetermined, but they have already
had an opportunity to build a war chest.
S1 (12:05):
Okay.
S2 (12:06):
Which a new person hasn't had enough time to build
the financial support they need to win. And so the
fact that we have primaries really, really supports incumbents and come.
Incumbents love primaries. Not just because of that, but we
pay for primaries, which in fact act like a poll
(12:31):
for the incumbents. They use the results of a primary
to help focus on what they need to do for
the general election. So we are actually holding primaries that
are detrimental for us and do nothing, really, uh, particularly
(12:51):
when you move to choice voting and, and, and do
nothing more than act as a free survey and poll
for incumbents and people who make it to the general election.
S1 (13:05):
Well, can I add the point that it seems to
me and you can verify this. Each party has their primaries.
And if we're talking about Democrats and Republicans, each one
has their own primary before the general election or the
main election.
S2 (13:23):
Well, um.
S1 (13:25):
Is that correct?
S2 (13:25):
This choice. We're bringing choice voting to the city of
San Diego. Okay. And so in the city, the city
has a primary that the county runs for the city.
And we have, um, a top two, the top two.
Then go on to the general election.
S1 (13:45):
In either party.
S2 (13:46):
In either party, they can both be from the Democratic Party.
They can both be from Republican Party. They could both
be from the Green Party. Okay. You know what? Whatever party. Um,
although I say the Green Party a little tongue in
cheek because, again, our current voting system does everything it
can to prevent third parties from being elected. In fact, it's, um,
(14:12):
it is, you know, everything about voting is math, right?
It's it's all numbers.
S1 (14:18):
Yeah.
S2 (14:18):
Um, if you look at something called Duverger's Law, it
explains why when you have our current voting system, that
you're going to get a duopoly of just the two
of just two parties. And that it crowds out other parties,
you know. So all those non-party preference people who might
(14:42):
like to vote for another party, the current voting system
is essentially what's stopping you from being able to do that?
S1 (14:51):
Now, Andre, is that because, um, this law or maybe
there's a rule in the election that says you have
to have such a certain percentage in order to be
included in the vote?
S2 (15:06):
Well, yeah. And I think I want to go back
and correct something that I said, you can anybody can vote.
Anybody can run for the office of city office and
anybody can vote for them. The thing that makes it
difficult is people who are non-incumbents, who may be Democrats
or Republicans, but not in the inner circle of either party.
(15:32):
And also third parties. It gives it it. Our current
voting system makes it difficult for any of those people
to actually be elected, you know. Okay. And that is
a real problem in terms of change. Because if you
create a playing field where anyone on the outside, so
(15:55):
to speak, is going to have a really difficult time
of being elected, you've essentially rigged the game and you
can keep in a small cluster of people. Um, in
terms of who is likely to be elected.
S1 (16:12):
And you're saying that that does not exist within choice voting.
S2 (16:18):
Choice voting is fabulous at addressing many of those. And
let me be clear there is nothing that is perfect.
There is no voting system that is absolutely perfect. Okay,
but choice voting very much addresses many, many of these issues.
S1 (16:36):
Okay. What's the most dominant way it addresses it that
our listeners can say, oh yeah, I got it, I
get it.
S2 (16:42):
Yeah. And this is I'll give this example first because
there are a few I can talk about, but I'll
give you one.
S1 (16:49):
I bet you have quite.
S2 (16:50):
A few, but I'll give you one that I think
really resonates with people. Uh, when I go and look
at a particular race, let's say there are five people
running for mayor.
S1 (17:05):
Okay?
S2 (17:05):
Okay. Oftentimes there's one person who I love. They share
my values. I think they're a wonderful person. I think
they could do a good job. And almost inevitably, that
person is considered to have absolutely no chance of winning. None. Okay.
(17:27):
But I really want to vote for them because I
think they're fabulous, you know? And then there are other
people running and there's somebody. Okay. Yeah, I could vote
for them. You know, they they would be my second choice.
But then there's another person who I absolutely hate, who
I think is evil incarnate. And I don't want to
(17:49):
vote for that person.
S1 (17:50):
Okay.
S2 (17:52):
When I go to the polls, who am I going
to feel compelled to vote for? Under this system, I
would be afraid to vote for my the person I
really love, because I would be afraid that I'm actually
giving away my vote to that person I hate, or
that my vote is going to be wasted.
S1 (18:12):
Oh.
S2 (18:12):
You're right, my vote would be wasted if I voted
for this person who has almost no chance to win.
And then that would make me really afraid that this
person I hate might win. So what I often end
up doing is I vote for the person that I
you know, that is not my first choice, but at
least I like them a whole lot better than the
(18:33):
person I hate, right? So. Under choice voting, you will
never have to make that decision again. Ever.
S1 (18:44):
How so?
S2 (18:45):
So in choice voting, instead of just voting for one candidate,
you get to rank your candidates in order of preference.
So you find out. You decide who you want the most,
who you love, who your values align with, and you
put them down as your first choice and then as
(19:06):
your second choice. In the example that I just gave you,
I would probably put that person that you know I
was okay with. Looks like he has a real chance
of winning, or she has a real chance of winning,
and I'll put them as my number two. And then
I'll go on on down the line with a 3
or 4 and then maybe a five. You know, I
(19:27):
may not rank the person I hate at all, but, um,
and so the beauty happens when they start counting the votes,
so they'll count all the votes. If my first choice
has absolutely no way of winning after they've counted the votes,
then guess what? They will take my vote and they'll
(19:50):
move it down to my second choice. So it will
count for my second choice. My vote will no longer
be wasted because I voted for the person I like
the most. And so we don't. We won't have wasted
ballots anymore, and we will never have to to vote
(20:10):
for the lesser of two evils. I'll never have to
do a lesser of two evils again, and neither will
anybody else. And this frees up people to vote for
for the candidate they really like. And eventually those those
people that we really like who at this point have
little chance of winning eventually when we are all comfortable
(20:34):
and voting our true values, instead of being people who
don't have a chance of being voted in, they can
actually be voted in.
S1 (20:44):
Now, doesn't the person that your first choice, let's say,
have to have like 51%? Isn't there a percentage they
have to have before the vote goes to the next person?
S2 (20:58):
Uh, no. No. In the mayor example that I gave you, um, we, uh,
in the example I gave you, let's say that, you know,
one person got 40%, and then the rest were distributed
throughout the remaining four candidates. They will keep eliminating candidates
(21:20):
until one of those candidates gets 50% plus one.
S1 (21:25):
Uh, okay. Okay. That's where that percentage comes in.
S2 (21:27):
Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (21:28):
So if you're if your first choice gets that.
S2 (21:32):
If it gets it immediately. Yeah. On the first round,
then it's all over.
S1 (21:36):
That means a lot of people had made that their
first choice.
S2 (21:39):
That means 50 plus one have made that 50% plus
one have made that their first choice. You know. And
that would be great. You know, that doesn't often happen.
You know, it may, you know, but, um, sometimes you
have to, to, to do more. But it would be
it's great if that person has such an overwhelming vote
(22:00):
that they win on the first round of counting.
S1 (22:03):
So it sounds like it's conceivable for the second or third,
your second or third choice to reach that 51%?
S2 (22:11):
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and again, the beauty of it
is twofold. One, your vote isn't going to be wasted
just because the person you really liked can't get elected.
But also, your vote will. Will you still have the
opportunity to choose who's going to be mayor, even if
(22:34):
your first choice doesn't count? Because you'll have a second
choice or third choice?
S1 (22:40):
So this is going to eliminate because I've heard a
lot of people say, well, I'm not going to vote
because my vote doesn't count or it doesn't matter anyway.
They give me that anyway kind of thing. This process,
it seems like it stops that.
S2 (22:55):
Exactly, exactly. It empowers voters much, much more. Okay. And
and that is why choice voting is so powerful. It
gives us so much more power. And it gives and
it gives us power, not just in the process of voting,
but it supports candidates in being more accountable to us
(23:19):
as voters because we have more power in who we
choose as as our mayor, for example.
S1 (23:26):
Well, let me let me step over on the other
side and say, um, why would someone or what benefit
would a person have for keeping it the way it
is right now?
S2 (23:37):
Yeah, unfortunately there would be benefits to very, very, very
few people. Um, but those people are powerful people who
like being in power and like grassroots voters and just
voters at large, not having the power that they should. Yeah.
(23:59):
And that that is really the issue. So part of
choice voting, because I don't think I made this clear,
is not just that you rank the voting. But another
important part is that we're getting rid of primaries.
S1 (24:12):
Okay. Yeah.
S2 (24:13):
We did talk, so I. Yeah. Since I talked about primaries,
I just wanted to make that very clear. And getting
back to who wouldn't like it? Let's say clearly incumbents
aren't going to like it. It makes it easier to
vote them out. And incumbent isn't going to want to
change this, right? They they are great at working this system.
(24:36):
This system benefits them. It doesn't benefit the voters. It
benefits them. And they're going to hate getting rid of primaries,
you know, in terms of voters. When you have choice voting,
primaries are just pure evil, right? They are pure evil.
They again, they favor incumbents. Uh, they crowd out newer candidates,
(25:02):
you know, and make it difficult in terms of fundraising.
But they greatly benefit incumbents On all the ways we
talked about before. So yeah, incumbents don't want to get
rid of it. And also all of those people who
make millions of dollars from running primary campaigns, oh, they
(25:22):
are going to hate getting rid of primaries, right.
S1 (25:26):
All right.
S2 (25:27):
Yeah. No. And also, let's be clear, primaries cost millions
of dollars. Sure. So we're paying millions of dollars to
keep incumbents in office, make it more difficult for them
to get it out and also get them out. And
then also to do free polling for incumbents. Right.
S1 (25:47):
Does it make. Yeah. But Andrea, does it make, um,
non-incumbent people have to work harder because it sounds to
me like the, the, the particular process you're talking about, um,
is going to require more funding for people to get
out there and campaign.
S2 (26:06):
Actually, no, I don't I don't think that it is
going to require them to have more funding. It will.
It will actually do the opposite. They won't have to
expend as much energy to unseat an incumbent as they
would have before.
S1 (26:27):
All right.
S2 (26:27):
It is going to be easier. They're going to have
a much easier time unseating an incumbent than they do now.
S1 (26:35):
I see.
S2 (26:36):
Right. So so they are going to have a little
more time to fundraise. They are going to have a
little more encouragement in terms of being able to run
for office. And I have to tell you this, there
are several people in this city who would like to
(26:57):
run for office who I think would be great for
running for office, and all of them have said to me, oh, Andrea,
I'm going to run as soon as we get choice
voting in, because I because I really believe that I
connect and can connect with voters, and choice voting will
give me a vehicle to be able to win with
(27:18):
the support that that community members and San Diegans will
give me.
S1 (27:23):
So is this a way of of also making candidates? Um,
not not a candidate anymore, but an elected official more accountable?
S2 (27:33):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. If you can vote them out more easily,
if they have less structures that help them stay in
place even when they're not performing well, all of a
sudden they become much more accountable to voters. And that
is one of the most important parts about, um, about
(27:56):
choice voting.
S3 (28:03):
Hey, we're going to pause the conversation for a second.
We'll be back with more of the show right after this.
S4 (28:08):
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S3 (29:32):
Hey, let's pick up where we left off. Back to
the show.
S1 (29:35):
Well, I've got a few terms here. I've got choice voting.
Ranked choice voting.
S2 (29:40):
Yep.
S1 (29:41):
More choice voting.
S2 (29:43):
Yep.
S1 (29:43):
And this new one that I just found. Instant runoff voting.
S2 (29:47):
Yeah. IVR instant voting runoff.
S1 (29:50):
Are they all the same or are they different?
S2 (29:52):
Okay, so ranked choice voting is an umbrella term. Okay.
S1 (29:57):
Okay.
S2 (29:57):
There are a lot of different ways to actually implement
ranked choice voting. Okay. So if you think of that
as an umbrella term That's that's the best way to
understand what the term ranked choice voting is.
S1 (30:14):
Okay.
S2 (30:15):
The core of any form of ranked choice voting is
that you rank your candidates in order of preference. That's
true for any ranked choice voting style of voting. Okay.
There are a lot of little different ways to implement
that though. Again, these are all numbers, so you can
have little differences. For example, one easy difference can be
(30:41):
you have to make a determination, for example, as to
how many candidates you can rank. Some places that have
a form of ranked choice voting allow voters to rank
every single candidate. Some say that you can rank ten candidates.
Some say you can rank five candidates. So every different
(31:04):
jurisdiction is going to have Decide differently what they want.
And that's just one of the examples of how that's
going to be different. More choice is under the umbrella
of ranked choice voting, but we give it its own
name of choice voting for a couple of reasons. One,
(31:26):
we want people to understand that this is ranked choice
voting for San Diego. And so it has its own
name choice voting is what we are bringing to San Diego. Okay.
And the other, at least one of the other reasons
why we call it choice voting is we did a
(31:48):
really deep dive as to what San Diego's wanted in
terms of their government, in terms of voting. About two
years ago, we held several forums throughout the city asking
community members, what do you want to see in our
local government? What concerns do you have? Tell us a
(32:08):
little bit about voting, you know. And on top of that,
I can't even tell you how many dozens of of
of individual conversations we've had with community members on how
they're feeling. You know, and what they want. I was
also a part of a coalition where we did, um,
(32:30):
a survey of of San Diegans, and it was a
professionally done survey. 60% said they were in favor of
bringing some form of ranked choice voting to San Diego. Okay.
So we took all that information that we got from
community members, and I then started gathering information from experts
(32:55):
from literally around the world. And of course, as I
said earlier, I did research myself and on on different
forms of voting. So after that, got a sense of, okay,
how do we bring to San Diego's what they want
based on the research and, and, and expert input that
(33:19):
we've got gotten. So, you know, I designed something I
worked with, as I said, literally from experts around the world,
attorneys from around the country, mathematician and Australia and at
Columbia to come up with something that would meet the
needs of San Diegans. And that's how we came up
(33:42):
with choice voting. So we like to use the word
choice also, because it is really the best form of
voting for San Diego.
S1 (33:53):
Where where is it used now?
S2 (33:56):
Yeah, it is used in 63. Well, let me let
me say this a form of ranked choice voting is
used in at least 63 jurisdictions throughout the United States.
S1 (34:09):
Really?
S2 (34:09):
Oh my gosh. Yes. And it is used all over
the world. I mean, it's it's used all over the world.
Whenever a jurisdiction looks at their old voting system and
decides to change it. It is very often they're going
to come up with some form of ranked choice voting
(34:34):
because of how how effective it is.
S1 (34:39):
Sure.
S2 (34:39):
And, um, so. Yeah. Um, Portland, Oregon has a, uh,
a form of ranked choice voting that is very similar
to choice voting. Albany, California uses something that is similar
or has a form of ranked choice voting. San Francisco
and Oakland as well.
S1 (35:00):
Wow.
S2 (35:01):
Cambridge, Massachusetts for decades has had something very similar to
choice voting and didn't.
S1 (35:08):
I recently read something about New York's.
S2 (35:10):
New York was a beautiful, beautiful.
S1 (35:12):
Example. The mayor contest.
S2 (35:14):
Yeah. Let me let me, uh. Almost exactly a year ago,
I went to Ireland with a delegation of about 40
people to observe elections in Ireland. And Ireland has a
form of voting, again, very similar to choice voting. And
while I was there, we were able to talk to
(35:37):
professors and experts and candidates and elected officials. We went
to both, uh, Parliament in Ireland itself and also the
parliament in the, the English Parliament and the six counties
of Ulster. And, um, while we were there, there was
a particular race, uh, and a group of people were
running for something similar to a city council.
S1 (36:00):
Okay.
S2 (36:01):
There were a number of people running. They were running
against each other. Three of them were women. Okay, one
of those women got sick and she couldn't campaign. The
two women who were running against her went out and
started campaigning for her.
S1 (36:23):
Hmm. Okay.
S2 (36:25):
Okay. That is something that you would never see. And
the reason and and how I. And the reason why
I give this story is that. Our current our current
voting system almost requires electeds to campaign negatively against each other. Yeah.
(36:45):
And it also, it also incentivizes them to be very
negative with each other once they get elected. Choice voting
does the exact opposite. It incentivizes candidates to work together.
It incentivizes electeds to work together. And let me give
you an example of why these two women in Ireland
(37:07):
campaigned for this woman who was sick. What they would
do is, for example, they'd go and knock on a
door and say, hi, I'm running for city council. I'd
like for you to vote for me as your first choice.
And let's say, um, that person says, oh no, no,
I there's somebody I want to vote for my first choice.
(37:29):
The candidate is not going to say, oh, don't vote
for that first choice. I hate them, I can't stand them.
So they're going to say, oh no, no, no, they're
going to say, yeah, I agree with who you're voting
for as your first choice on this, this and this.
If you won't vote for me for your first choice,
vote for me for your second choice.
S1 (37:47):
Oh, okay.
S2 (37:48):
And that's how they work together. And then they'll then
one of the women in Ireland will say, and please
vote for this other candidate is your third choice. She
is very much in line with what I am doing
and also with what your first choice is doing. That
is the positive campaigning that takes place under choice voting.
And also it is an issue oriented campaign as opposed
(38:13):
to a negative mudslinging campaign. That's one of the things
that choice voting does just so beautifully.
S1 (38:20):
You know, I've heard so many people talk about, yeah,
but I want to hear about the issues. I want
to hear about the issues. And instead of that, all
they hear is back and forth, back and forth. Um,
as you mentioned, negative campaigning and people walk away disgusted.
I don't know if they voted, but I know they
were disappointed in the forum that they were in. And
(38:43):
you know, what you have outlined sounds a lot more positive.
S2 (38:47):
It is much more positive. And it is very it
is so strong and true about that. It really gets
rid of negative campaigning. It is just Spectacular in this way,
and it pivots candidates and electeds to really focusing on
(39:08):
the issues as opposed to just posturing, because under our
current voting system, posturing is what gets them elected and
what raises their support. So I actually feel sorry for Electeds.
It's the voting system that almost requires them to do it.
You know, even if they didn't want to, they almost
(39:28):
have to.
S1 (39:31):
You know, this has been very informative. You know, I
have learned a lot more about choice voting than I
knew before. And it's all because of the way you
have explained it, outlined it, and just overall made it
very easy to understand. However, I would really like to
have you come back and. Sure. And because I feel
(39:53):
like there's more that you want to say. And why
do I feel that way?
S2 (40:00):
There's always more I can say.
S1 (40:02):
Always more. And if, say.
S2 (40:03):
If there's just one thing, one other little thing that
I can say.
S1 (40:07):
Absolutely.
S2 (40:07):
We are putting choice voting. Choice voting on the ballot
in 2028. We are doing it by a ballot initiative,
which means we need to get citizens, voters, community members
to sign up to support the petition. So I would
ask everyone who is listening to this podcast to go
(40:29):
to the justice workshops. And as soon as you get
on that website, a pop up will appear where you
can sign up to sign the petition when it becomes available.
Of course, it's not going to be available officially until
the last quarter of 2027, but before then, over the
next two and a half years, we have got to
(40:51):
get tens of thousands of people to sign up and
say they they will sign the petition when it becomes available.
So Please, please go to the justice workshop and and
sign up.
S1 (41:07):
So, um, before we, we we end the program. Are
there any events that people can go to that are
coming up in which they could either see you or, um,
get in touch with someone?
S2 (41:22):
Yeah.
S1 (41:22):
About choice voting.
S2 (41:24):
And we will be having events, but we can always
make events come to you. Um, I will give a
presentation to any organization or a sufficiently large number of
people that includes neighborhood, you know, get togethers or friends
who want to get together. We'll come and talk to
you about choice voting. Just go on to the The
(41:46):
Justice Workshop org and let us know that you'd like
to come and us to come and speak to your group.
And we will be there.
S1 (41:56):
And I can personally verify I've seen Andrea work, um,
at a, um, a Sunday on a community event. It
was late in the evening and she came. People had
been socializing and having fun. Andrea came on the microphone,
got everybody's attention, and I'm telling you, it was quiet
(42:17):
while she was talking. And I believe you got everybody's
signature that was there.
S2 (42:21):
Yeah. People were. People were wonderful. One of the things
that's so encouraging is how many people really want to
see this kind of change. And, and, and as a
social justice advocate, that's where I think my responsibility is.
I have to look at what community members want, and
(42:42):
then I try to figure out a way, how do
I create a structure that allows them to move forward
on the change they want to see? And choice voting
is one of those, and it's so foundational. Think of
all the things that can't happen because we don't have
an appropriate structure for our candidates and electeds. It is
(43:05):
foundational to everything that happens in our governments.
S1 (43:09):
I think those are magnificent closing remarks, the change they
want to see. Andrea, thank you very much for being
my guest here today. I really appreciate you spending the
time talking about choice voting. And I know some of
the many of the listeners are going to take you
up on contacting you and getting you to come out
(43:33):
and talk to a group of, of their friends or
at an event that they're attending. Um, so there might
be a chance for some more signatures.
S2 (43:43):
Thank you.
S1 (43:44):
Thank you very much for being my guest. And thank
all of you for listening to Cannabis Enlightened. This has
been not only fun filled, but it has been extremely
interesting to hear about choice voting an option, an alternative
to the voting that we have right now. And remember,
you can listen to this episode and all the cannabis
(44:08):
enlightened episodes on the oldest media network and also Spotify.
And if you want to get in contact with me
to give some comments or suggestions about maybe future shows
or the shows that you've heard already, feel free to
contact me at Doctor Leroy at enlightened. That's Doctor Leroy
(44:31):
at Enlightened Comm. And remember, remember, Juneteenth is an important
day for you to stop and pay homage, to give
honor to our ancestors and embrace the cannabis enlightened slogan
that knowledge is power.
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