October 5, 2021 • 49 mins
Australia is recognised as one of the most inclusive nations in the world, but really, is it?
Disability advocate Hannah Diviney joins Tara Moss to dig into the details of what it’s like to live with a disability and tackle stereotypes, mental health issues, and barriers to work and education. How do Hannah and Tara overcome the stigmas around disability and women? What does living with a disability mean for our sense of identity? And really, why isn’t there a disabled Disney princess? (Hannah’s working on that.)
Hannah Diviney is a writer, founder of the Krazy Kosci Klimb, supporter of CPActive (a new initiative campaigning for change) and Co-Editor in Chief and Creative Lead at Missing Perspectives. For Hannah, visibility is so important. As she says, “visibility of disabled people in relationships, or disabled people being parents: that sort of visibility is very helpful for me in combating against my insecurities around whether I can have that, whether that's in the future for me..”
Check out Hannah's work at Missing Perspectives, sign her Disabled Disney Princess petition, and follow her on Twitter @hannah_diviney and Instagram @hannahthewildflower
Tara Moss is an author, former model and ambulatory wheelchair user living with
Complex Regional Pain Syndrome. Tara uses her public profile to help de-stigmatize disability, chronic illness and chronic pain. In 2020, she accepted the honorary role of Pain Champion with Pain Australia.
Check out Tara's books and blog at taramoss.com and follow her two wonderful Instagram accounts: @Taraandwolfie and @taramossauthor
Cerebral Conversations is proudly created by the team at the Cerebral Palsy Alliance to tackle the big issues around disability and find out what happens when great minds think differently. Find out more at cerebralpalsy.org.au/cerebralconversations
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben McAlary (00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to Cerebral Conversations, my name is
Ben McAlary.
Andy McLean (00:06):
And I'm Andy McLean. Hello. Today is World Cerebral Palsy Day,
and so we've got an extra special episode with two
extra special guests Tara Moss and Hannah Diviney. We absolutely
cannot wait to share this one with you.
Ben McAlary (00:21):
Now I'm just going to go through a few of
Tara's achievements, Andy, so just bear with me for a moment.
She's a Canadian Australian author who has worked as a
documentary maker and presenter. She's an academic, a broadcaster, a
model and a UNICEF national ambassador. Now, back in 2016,
(00:42):
Tara had a hip injury that left her with chronic
nerve pain and mobility issues. She's since become a powerful
voice in the area of disability advocacy.
Andy McLean (00:53):
Now, if you're listening to that, you might think, Oh,
Tara is quite a high achiever, but I'm going to
match you, Ben. Right here, I've got Hannah Diviney now.
Hannah is also a disability advocate. She's also a writer.
She's the founder of The Crazy Kosky Climb. She's editor
in chief of Missing Perspectives, a 2020 young Australian of
(01:14):
the Year nominee. And as if all that wasn't enough,
she's also campaigning with an international campaign for a disabled
Disney princess. How cool is that?
Ben McAlary (01:25):
It's amazing now, and we could talk all day about
this one, but look, we don't want to give too
much away. Nobody can discuss the issues covered, as well
as to people with lived experience of disability. So that's
enough from us. Let's hear from Tara and Hannah.
Tara Moss (01:41):
Oh, Hannah, I'm so glad we're finally getting a chance
to talk.
Hannah Diviney (01:45):
Yes, me too.
Tara Moss (01:47):
We were we were kind of chatting before beforehand about
some of the myths around disability. And I guess as
a writer and a speaker, I've been really focused on
stereotypes for a very long time. And since I've become
a disabled person, it has really struck me how relevant
(02:08):
this conversation is to disability. There's so many stereotypes and myths.
It's just quite mind boggling how misrepresented disability has been
in popular culture and in the public's mind. Would you
mind commenting on that? Like, what are some of the
myths you end up coming across in your life?
Hannah Diviney (02:27):
Um, well, one of the main kind of myths is,
and this was definitely when I was a lot younger,
it doesn't happen so much now, but kind of an
assumption that because I'm in a wheelchair, my intelligence on my
lack ability to perceive the world is somehow. I guess
(02:52):
damaged in a way, so people would be. Would be
surprised when I would be able to, like, hold the
conversation or that I was going to normal school, or
that if we were listening to something in the classroom
that I would be able to ask an intelligent question
or something like that. And I guess that's happened to
(03:13):
a little bit back pre-COVID, when I was traveling to
and from uni, you would see people's eyes kind of
widen and surprise if they're sitting next to you on
the train. And they happened to ask you, like where
you're coming from. And I'm saying, Oh, I've just come
from uni. They'd be like, this moment of, Oh. OK.
(03:35):
And then you'd be like, yes.
Tara Moss (03:36):
Surprise, surprise, surprise, here I am. Yeah. A fully formed
human being having a conversation with you?
Hannah Diviney (03:45):
Yeah. And then I guess the other interesting ones to me,
and I don't know if this is specific to Australia
because obviously we grow up putting sport on something of
a pedestal. But I would often be asked as a kid,
So what's your Paralympic sport going to be? And part
(04:07):
of me would be like, well, it's great that you
asked that question and that you think I'm capable of
doing that. On the one hand, second, you're not asking
everybody just what their Olympic sport is going to be,
and you're not assuming that every able-bodied kid even wants
to go to the Olympics. So why are you assuming
that that's like the only level of success for a
(04:29):
disabled person?
Tara Moss (04:31):
It's such a narrow focus, and I guess it speaks
to how little visibility there is for disability as there's
the Paralympics. And then there's what we see in movies
and you know, the sum of those parts just not
get anywhere near the whole of of real people's, real
disabled people's lives and, you know, the variety of their
(04:54):
experience or even disabilities.
Hannah Diviney (04:56):
Well, I mean, it definitely affected the way I perceived
what my adulthood might look like as a kid like I.
Didn't really see any disabled adults growing up. In fact,
I can remember the first time I saw a disabled
woman and she had her wheelchair on top of her car,
(05:18):
like in a roof rack style thing. And then she
pressed the button and the wheelchair kind of came down,
and I remember thinking that was the coolest thing ever.
Tara Moss (05:27):
That is the coolest thing ever. I want that. I
want that. That sounds awesome.
Hannah Diviney (05:33):
Yeah, right? But I had literally never seen anything like
that before, and I've never seen like any disabled teachers
or just even people like out in the community, just
living their lives. Like, obviously, now that I've joined the
advocacy community online and stuff, I'm exposed to a lot
more disability and a lot more people doing amazing things.
Tara Moss (05:55):
Let's talk for a moment about social media because certainly
through the pandemic, but even far before then, I I
think it was really online where I began learning the
most about disability before I became a disabled person myself,
but certainly since as well. It's where I've kind of
learned the most. I've learned the most from other disabled,
(06:18):
often women, but really just the whole disability community. How
did we ever get by before this way of finding
each other like I?
Hannah Diviney (06:28):
Yeah, I'm really not sure it would have been like
trying to, I guess, do a puzzle without knowing what
the picture should look like. Yeah, it would have been
really difficult to navigate, like some of the things that
I've learned about the ways in which, like, we're conditioned
to think and like internalized embolism and all of those things.
(06:50):
And like just. Like, not seeing the facts that I
have to rest as weakness or that kind of thing,
that's been really helpful and that's all stuff that's been
made clear to me through the disabled community online.
Tara Moss (07:08):
It's disabled advocates yet have made such a huge difference.
And I guess outside of the disability community, people might
imagine a lot of that advocacy is like work to
try to educate non-disabled people. And yeah, that's of course
that's part of it. A lot of us can get
a little bit tired of just that, you know that element.
(07:29):
But I think a lot of the focus really is
on community and solidarity. It's actually about being visible so
that someone who's out there right now who, like you said,
does doesn't know what the puzzle looks like, knows that
they're part of it, but just doesn't know how is
this going to play out? What do I do? How
do I cope? Can actually see someone else and go, Oh,
(07:51):
I see the solutions they're using to get from A
to B, or I see how they're managing their condition. Yeah,
and their disability. And they can see like rich and
interesting lives and ways to like workarounds. You know, like, definitely,
we're constantly finding workarounds for things other people might take
for granted and the vast majority of those things I've
(08:13):
learned from either just my own hit and miss experiments. Yes,
or disabled people. Do you have any examples that you
want to share of kind of those like little tips
and tricks that have helped?
Hannah Diviney (08:26):
Probably the the whole idea of like pacing yourself that
that was a really new one. Because obviously, like you,
I struggle a great deal with pain and fatigue and
especially with cerebral palsy. Fatigue is not something that anyone
ever brings up to you as something. So when that
first started hitting, that was like, What the hell is
(08:47):
going on? Something else must be wrong. Hmm. Because nobody
had ever said, Hey, by the way, it's probably likely
that you're going to start feeling pretty fatigued as you
get older. So yet pearly pacing myself is the number
one kind of work around. But even just like the
visibility of disabled people in relationships or disabled people being
(09:09):
parents or that kind of thing like that sort of
visibility is very helpful to me in kind of combating
against my insecurities around whether I can have that, whether
that's look in the future for me, whether it's something
that that other people would kind of want to join
(09:29):
the party on, I guess if that makes sense.
Tara Moss (09:31):
Yeah. Well, just seeing that disabled people have whole lives
and friends and like, we're just human beings like everyone
else and we just, you know, have these particular things
that we have to do differently because of our disabilities
or that we can't do because of our disabilities. And
the idea, I guess, is so often about like a
disabled person and carer or disabled person by themselves. And
(09:55):
there's like no one else in the picture. It's just
that's just simply not that's simply not the reality. I
find that when I'm, I guess, advocating on accessibility issues
often even like a very well-meaning council will simply not
factor in that disabled person might need access to a
place that you know they're going to bring their child to,
(10:16):
or they're going to bring their whole family to, and
they're going to have or they're going to have friends.
Hannah Diviney (10:20):
So yeah, and then they're like, Oh, whoops, we didn't
think you would come here like, Oh, yeah, that's right.
Tara Moss (10:29):
It's like, if you make a place inaccessible for one
disabled person, then it's like there may be, you know,
five people in that immediate family. Then that can't go there. Yeah,
you know, or 50, depending on, you know, how big
the group is going to be at any particular time.
So I think that's a really good point. Hannah's just
the the fact that the visibility online allows us to
(10:50):
see people's lives like their lives being lived. Yeah. And
rather than this sort of this individual focus on kind of, Hey,
this person has a particular difference or, you know, look
at their mobility aid or whatever it is. Yes, it's like, no,
look at the look their whole life as well. And
just seeing the context in the bigger picture.
Hannah Diviney (11:12):
And I think as well, unfortunately, kind of in mainstream
media and society, people still sort of cling to this
image of like the sad disabled person and look in
the name of being completely honest about things. There are
days when you do get sad or you do get
angry or you're kind of almost grieving for the life
(11:34):
you didn't have, or in some cases, the life you lost,
depending on what you what your experience of disability is.
But I think the fact that like disabled joy and.
Disabled like fun is so often missed in society, really
(11:56):
doesn't do much for like people's understanding of who who
we are as rich human beings. I guess I was wondering.
In your experience, like when you became disabled, were people
expecting you to sort of curl up in a ball
and kind of hide away from the world or.
Tara Moss (12:18):
Yeah, look, I think there was an expectation that it
would just go away. And I think I hit away
from the world, I think there was some internalized embolism
there as well as just being a bit like at sea.
I just didn't know what was going to happen and
how to deal with what was happening, because no one
would just tell me, Oh, this is this change in
(12:39):
your life. So prepare in these ways. And yet no
one gave me, there's no textbook, no no, and explain
things to me.
Hannah Diviney (12:46):
I really wish there was a textbook tour that would
make life so much easier.
Tara Moss (12:51):
Oh, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? Especially for those of us
who have dynamic disabilities and like, you know, the majority
of disabilities are invisible or non static as well. And
it's like, I'm one of those people who could look, Yeah,
you know, the same on the outside, but I could
no longer wait bear comfortably. And I have a bunch
of nerve pain, so people didn't have an expectation that
(13:14):
I was disabled. It just sort of had to keep
being an issue, keep being a limitation for a long
time before it was like, All right, you know, I'm
not going to be putting the cane away. I really
need it. And the cane also became a walker in
a wheelchair. And that was like, that was when my
life started coming back because I needed those things for
(13:34):
my freedom and participation in life. And part of the
reason I think that I initially just didn't understand. Yeah,
what I needed to do was because I didn't know
that I was disabled or I didn't know, you know,
I didn't. It's just not as black and white as
most people tend to imagine. So once I kind of accepted,
(13:55):
Oh yes, here I am with this condition and I
had a diagnosis, which is a privilege some people don't get.
It helps that it's like, Oh, OK, the penny drops,
all right, so all these things I'm experiencing are from
it's a cluster of symptoms around the same issue complex
(14:15):
regional pain syndrome. I can read up on it. I
can understand it better. When I'm working with physical therapists
and specialists, we can all understand it better. But that
for a lot of people, does doesn't happen overnight. It
just doesn't happen that easily. So it was a long process.
And I think for some of that, I just waited
for it to pass or I kept going to see doctors,
(14:38):
but I didn't necessarily know how to use tools to
help myself get out. And I didn't know that I
would need them in six months, you know, time or
a year's time and so on. So I like the
visibility that I have now and the connection I have
with the disability community because that's one of the lessons
that we all kind of have by being visible is
(15:02):
being able to recognize each other and other people who
are experiencing mobility problems, actually recognizing it. Oh, it's OK
for me to use a cane in public because it
hurts to walk and the cane helps. Like if it
helps you, you have permission to use it. That's OK.
The diagnosis might still come like you don't have to
(15:24):
wait at home for kind of permission to say, Oh,
I need this. And that's some of the feedback that
I get. Well, several times a week, sometimes several times
a day from people going, Oh, I feel I felt
okay to speak to my physiotherapist about using a wheelchair
because I really needed one years ago and just, you know,
(15:47):
stubbornly didn't or was never told by anyone. This should
be an option you're considering.
Hannah Diviney (15:52):
And then now I'm in a position where it's like, Oh,
this would've been so much easier.
Tara Moss (15:56):
Yeah, this would have been so much easier. Yeah, it's
it's it's just it's a complicated journey and it's never
the same for any two people. And I think that
having visibility in the media and in popular culture and
social media allows us to see. The variety and reality
(16:17):
of disability and actually identify when we're like one of
those people or we know someone else, yeah, who's one
of those people and could be helped or could improve
their lives in some way.
Hannah Diviney (16:29):
I'm really lucky in that like. My diagnosis came pretty
much straight away because I was born three months early
and with a blade on the brain and all that stuff.
So doctors were like, OK, we are looking for the
answer to this because something is wrong. So yeah, I
was able to be diagnosed really early and start receiving
(16:52):
like the support that I needed from about 12 weeks old.
So that sort of really early intervention and that kind
of immediate acceptance of like, OK. Everyone here knows that
this is a thing that is happening in my life,
like I don't have to fight to be believed, I
don't have to sit in a doctor's room and be like,
This is what's happening, and nobody can explain why. It's like,
(17:15):
that is a privilege in itself. And obviously, there's things
that come from living with a disability from birth that
aren't so great. But I definitely think having that belief
and that immediate sort of. Well, this is just how
your life is going to have to be, if you
want to even be like a functioning human helps helps
(17:39):
a lot with that.
Tara Moss (17:41):
I think it would be less confusing in some ways,
but I also think, you know, you can speak well
to the challenges of being a kid like yourself and
have having other kids not understand or having you not
understand because you can't see. You can't see people like
you represented in the wider world. It's like, how do I,
(18:04):
if you can't see it, can't be it, you know,
what am I going to become? How does this work?
Is that big question you would have, you know, anyone
has when they encounter disability in their personal lives, but
certainly as a child? Yeah, it's a huge challenge.
Hannah Diviney (18:19):
It used to be very confusing and especially like my
two younger sisters that I have extremely sporty, extremely fit, well,
able to do things with their bodies kind of thing.
And that sort of, I guess, gap between us sometimes
felt really pronounced because like even though I'm the oldest,
(18:40):
sometimes I would feel like the youngest because I need
so much help or because, like my sisters can go
and do a cartwheel and I'm like, Yeah, well, that's
not happening for like even just just run up the
stairs to grab something or something like that. Yeah, I
think definitely as a kid, there's a level of like
trying to figure out what it means. And I think
(19:03):
part of the power of visibility is that it would
have really helped me to navigate that more smoothly than
I have ended up, especially because I kind of started
realizing I was different when I was, I think, like
three I was at daycare and I saw my best
friend at the time. I remember it clear as day
(19:25):
stand up from the table after we finished. Our lunch
and I watched a stand up and kind of saw
what her body did look down at my legs and went, OK,
that's what we're going to do. And then when nothing happened,
I was really confused being like, Wait, what can I
do that? And then having that whole of, well, you're different, like.
(19:48):
This is what happened, you've got this condition, cerebral palsy,
all this stuff, the blah blah blah. And this being
like the big. But why? I guess because little kids
especially ask why so much and. They're not really being
an answer for that was really tough, especially because I'm
(20:08):
a particularly curious person, like I was the kind of
kid who would ask questions from the time I got
up in the morning to the time I went to
bed at night, to the point where my parents would
be like, OK, that's enough questions for today, like, Oh
my God, just like, chill out for this. So having
this big question about yourself, that kind of no one
could answer. And obviously, like they still really can't answer,
(20:32):
like science and medicine is working out, and it has
come a bit closer to sort of figuring out like
what might have happened, but they can't ever be 100
percent sure that this is the reason. And I think
having that giant question about your life is really weird
for your identity because it's kind of like it shapes
itself around a black hole, almost.
Tara Moss (20:54):
Hmm. Well, with complex regional pain syndrome, again, I'm amazed
at how little science knows about it, like, you know,
it's been report reported since the Civil War, and it's
had a couple of different names and there's a lot
of documentation on it and a lot of medical journals
writing on it specialists around the world. But they still
(21:17):
can't agree precisely on how it happens. It's generally an
injury to a limb. Usually there's a nerve injury, but
sometimes not.
Hannah Diviney (21:27):
It must be so frustrating.
Tara Moss (21:28):
Yeah, and it's the treatments specifically that people can't agree
on because people are so different and the way they
respond is so different. And that's a tough thing. I
think a lot of non-disabled or non chronically ill people
might be surprised by is that say you finally get
that diagnosis, then you want there to be a treatment
(21:51):
that works for it and they're just there just isn't,
you know,
Hannah Diviney (21:56):
it's not like a one size fits all box isn't like, AHA. Well,
this is what we do.
Tara Moss (22:00):
It's not a one size fits all. And even though yeah,
and a multi-disciplinary approach, which I think when it comes
to pain issues is absolutely, probably most chronic illness issues
and disabilities, but certainly with chronic pain. I can say
a multi-disciplinary approach is vital because nothing's going to work
without a multidisciplinary approach. Even so, there's not agreement on
(22:25):
exactly what that should look like, how much of each
of the disciplines are involved, how much of it's going
to be physical, pharmacological medical interventions, you know, you know,
how what does that look like? It's it can speak
to the best in the fields, and they actually don't
have an answer for you. They have a lot of
(22:47):
questions like this might work and this might work. And.
Hannah Diviney (22:51):
Yeah, and I think one of the things that I
often say that I'm grateful for is that the things
that I can't do, I can only imagine what they
feel like, oh, look like. Whereas I think for anyone
who acquires a disability later in life, you actually have
(23:11):
that like physical memory of being able to do something
and having that kind of be taken away. I guess
I'm curious, like how you've kind of coped with like
adjusting your own expectations for yourself.
Tara Moss (23:29):
That's a good question, Hannah, and I wish I had
a great answer. I'm still working on. It is the reality.
You know, like there's usually grief associated with this. And yes,
and I'm still there. You know, like, I obviously have
lots of good days and I think I'm a pretty
darn positive person. Just listen to me pretty darn positive.
(23:51):
I sound so Canadian right now, and I say that
I'm I'm a really positive person and self-motivated and always
looking for ways to to do things and to keep
going and to improve things. But of course, there's a
lot of grief, and I just remember a particular day
when I was in Australia last year and I was
(24:13):
a couple of blocks from my house sitting on my
walker or rolling, or there's like a little seed on
it and I have to sit down any time I'm
standing more than, you know. Sometimes it's a few seconds,
sometimes it's a few minutes. I can stand before the
pain gets really high and I get dizzy. So I
was sitting there and these hikers walked past, and I
just remember the incredible grief that sort of flew into
(24:38):
me and just hung on me because I was one
of those people for so long. Like, I hiked that
track so many times and was one of those people
who just would would chat and walk like it's you're
not doing anything. You're on a you're on a level
surface walking with your friends, totally normal. And the fact
(24:59):
that I can't do that now and wouldn't be able
to take those hikes on those tracks anymore was something
that I grieved. And I don't know that I'm on
the other side of it, but I'm certainly adjusting to
are beginning to, like, accept that there's this whole other
world that I can experience differently now and that those
(25:19):
things that are in the past are things that I
did get experience. I mean, the grief coming from loss
means that you had something and you no one can
ever take that away from you. You know, I I
got to take those hikes. That's a privilege that I
was able to do that. And I guess now I
recognize that it was a privilege and I get to
(25:40):
hang onto, you know what that was without an expectation
that it will be again. I mean, I just can't
do those hikes now.
Hannah Diviney (25:49):
That's a really great way to look at it, I think.
And do you find that like in terms of like
processing that emotion that like writing helps?
Tara Moss (25:58):
I think writing helps because writing has been a part
of me since I was a little girl.
Hannah Diviney (26:03):
Yeah, me too.
Tara Moss (26:03):
Writing is a way to experience and create worlds, you know, like,
it's an incredible thing to do, whether you're writing for yourself,
which was how I started or writing professionally, which is
what I do now. Writing is incredibly freeing. Like, I
think books are the most incredible time machines and, you know,
(26:24):
transport that you can hold in your hand. You can
go anywhere, any time with a book. So I love books,
and I think writing has been a lifesaver for me
through this experience and before.
Hannah Diviney (26:37):
Yeah, I would agree to. So I think I was
four when I wrote my first story.
Tara Moss (26:45):
Do you remember what it was about?
Hannah Diviney (26:47):
Yeah, it was about. So all the kids in my
preschool kind of went down for nap time. It was
around Christmas, and when we woke up, we weren't at
the preschool anymore. We were in the North Pole to
visit Santa and to like, tell him what we wanted
for Christmas that year. I, I have it somewhere around
(27:08):
here to find it. And then basically, like, we got
to tell Santa what we what we wanted, and then
we just kind of felt sleepy again and woke back
up in the preschool and were like, Guess what moment
that we got to go to the North Pole? Just
like this really cute, magical kind of story? And I,
my mom had to write it out for me. But
I remember kind of that feeling of almost like a
(27:31):
door being opened that I didn't even know was there
and then being like, Oh, OK, this is fun. This
is what I'm supposed to do. So. So as a kid,
I would often write with the same dedication that, like
my sisters, would go to soccer practice or to ballet
or or whatever. The fact that I get to do
that now for a job and like people pay me
(27:52):
and people are actually reading, my work is is huge.
To me, it's
Tara Moss (27:57):
a dream job. And I think that, yeah, having disabled
writers work out their. Is one of the key parts
of changing. The myths and issues of stereotypes around disability
like too long, have we had a situation where non-disabled
people were writing about disability and getting things wrong, you know,
(28:20):
and now having disabled writers, you know, out there and
being read in our stories, being read is just incredibly important.
I know this is a it's a passion of yours
as well, like with missing perspectives. Can you tell us
a bit about that?
Hannah Diviney (28:36):
Yes, a missing perspectives is this kind of brand new initiative.
We're hoping it will be a not for profit very soon.
That kind of seeks to sort of. Address the marginalization
of women and girls globally around the world, because we
came across this report from the Gates Foundation that basically
(28:59):
said that women were like deeply underrepresented in the news
media decision making policy, all of those kind of things.
And as a result, they felt really disconnected from those
those arenas. And obviously, like I know for myself personally,
like the power that I found in being able to
(29:22):
tell my own story and have ownership of that. And
I guess that's the similar experience that we want to
give to as many women and girls as we can.
So at this stage, I think we've had contributors from
over 40 countries and we're being read in about 80.
I think it's
Tara Moss (29:39):
amazing. Congratulations.
Hannah Diviney (29:42):
It's absolutely bananas to have happened this fast as well
is a bit like being shut out of a.
Tara Moss (29:47):
Oh, I'm in the best possible way yet in
Hannah Diviney (29:51):
the best possible way.
Tara Moss (29:52):
But missing perspectives, it's a it's a great name and
a great aim because it is really one of the,
you know, the biggest challenges that marginalized groups face is
representation and just being heard. Yeah, I know some of
those stats. In fact, I wrote a book called Speaking Out,
which was really spurred on by the fact that fewer
(30:17):
than one in four of everyone in the world that
we hear from or about is female. So fewer than
one in four. The rest are all male. So those
are the people we're hearing from or about.
Hannah Diviney (30:28):
That statistic just makes me like, just sigh deeply.
Tara Moss (30:32):
You think like, I'd love this to be different in
like 2021? And here we are. So I do occasionally see,
like really encouraging shifts in stats. But of course, you
need it to continue long term when you need it
to also be like brought in across groups. And I
have found that when people talk diversity and inclusion, often
(30:54):
they leave out disabled people are disabled women.
Hannah Diviney (30:57):
Yeah, it's almost like they kind of forget that we're
like there and I'm like, Hello, yeah, that's right.
Tara Moss (31:03):
And disability cuts across all other marginalized groups as well.
So obviously there are disabled women, there are disabled women
of colour, the disabled indigenous women. And in fact, like
there's often a disproportionate number. So yeah, it's really yeah.
It's I think, missing perspectives. And just like acknowledging that
(31:23):
those perspectives are important and need to be heard is
such a great focus. And I, I just can't be
happier with what you're doing there. Yeah.
Hannah Diviney (31:33):
Well, I I feel really grateful because I was originally
just brought onto that project as someone who was going
to write a piece because a friend, Phoebe Santillan is
our founder, and she reached out and was like, Hey,
I'm doing this thing. And her her mum used to
be a teacher of mine, and she said, My mom said,
you were a really good writer, so I was hoping
(31:54):
you could write a piece and then kind of eventually
I've ended up kind of becoming, I guess, the quote
unquote like editor in chief. I love it. Of that.
And like, we've really built it together. Yeah, I feel
really lucky to get to do that. And there's some
really exciting partnerships that we are kind of pursuing and
(32:16):
building at the moment that I can't wait for people
to see like the content that we make.
Tara Moss (32:21):
There's some pretty exciting news for you. Young Australian of
the Year. Tell us about that.
Hannah Diviney (32:32):
So in an unbelievable kind of series of events, I
have been nominated for Young Australian of the Year for
2022 for my advocacy work, and the nomination in particular
comes from this event that I do called the Crazy,
(32:54):
Crazy Climate, which I'm the co-founder of, where basically we
help kids with disabilities, mainly cerebral palsy, because we do
it through Cerebral Palsy Alliance. But we have done other
disabilities conquer Mount Kosciuszko, which is one of the seven
summits and like Australia's highest point, so someone who's done
(33:16):
a couple of climbs with me through that kind of jokingly, well,
I thought he was joking, said to me at that,
said to me at the end of the last one, Oh,
I think this is like young Australian of the immaterial.
And I sort of laughed it off because what else
are you supposed to do when somebody says something like
that to you? But he was actually quite serious. And yeah,
(33:36):
it's it's been amazing so far, even just the amount
of interest since announcing my nomination and the amount of
kind of eyeballs that it's got into my work into
the things that I do is it's pretty crazy to
think about.
Tara Moss (33:50):
It's not crazy at all, because it's a well-deserved nomination,
and I've got to say, I'm so pleased for you. Oh,
thank you. You know, it's it's a well deserved bit
of recognition for all the advocacy work you've been doing
in it. Thank you. We can't even encapsulate all of
it in this one conversation, but it's appreciated. It's making
a difference. And I'm really happy to see you recognize.
Hannah Diviney (34:12):
Well, that means a lot because I think. The one
thing that I'm always conscious of is like. Are people
in the disabled community going to be OK with me
having this quote unquote success? Look, I don't want anyone
to ever feel like I'm taking up too much space
(34:34):
or like I'm taking away someone else's chance to have
a voice or something like that. So to have that
support really means a lot.
Tara Moss (34:45):
You have that support and not just from me, so
you don't you worry about that and not only that,
but this idea that the the disability community has this
very small slice of the pie, which is unfortunately still true.
We just got to expand that. Yeah, pie, baby. We
just got it's got to have more of our voices
out there. And, you know, and that recognition is incredibly
(35:06):
important for all of us. So like you are, you
were paving the way. And I love it.
Hannah Diviney (35:13):
I'm trying. We'll see how it goes, see how we go.
It doesn't get announced till January, but fingers crossed it
progresses to the to the later stages.
Tara Moss (35:24):
Yeah, but already, even just in being nominated, it's just
great to have that recognition, and I think my view
is that it doesn't have to help the whole community
for you to be nominated, but I think it is.
I think it is. So that's another bonus. And yeah,
I don't like that. As disabled people, we feel like
we've got the weight of, you know, expectation on us
(35:44):
for a whole like community, huge segment of the population.
Of course, we can never, you know, can never live
up to this idea that we have to represent everyone
we don't. But I do think that you're being recognized
is really helpful to all of us. And so thank you.
Hannah Diviney (36:01):
You're very welcome. Thank you for everything you do, too.
Tara Moss (36:04):
I know we're both super passionate about representation and disabled
people's stories and visibility and just circling back to, you know,
childhood and meeting to really see disability normalized and see
examples of disabled people around you. I know that you
(36:26):
you've worked for or advocated for Disney to have a
disabled princess. Can you tell us about that?
Hannah Diviney (36:32):
Yeah. So that comes from growing up, a massive Disney
fan and kind of also I. Didn't see a disabled
character in my life on screen until I was 10,
so that's like a whole decade of my life, not
seeing anybody who sort of look like me and being like,
Where am I like, why am I invisible? This whole thing?
(36:55):
And just for anyone wondering, that was Artie Abrams from Glee.
I was really excited because I was like, You can sing,
you can dance, blah blah blah. Like, he's got friends.
All of these kind of things that I that I
love doing and I was super insecure about. I kind
of felt like they were finally recognized and I was like, OK,
(37:16):
I can do this like, this is a guy that's
done this and it's doing things that I love. And
all of that was doing really well until there was
a sequence like in the second season, I think where
he kind of got up and was doing some dance
routine where he was moving around normally. And I was like. Oh, wait,
(37:36):
a second. He's actually able bodied. Cue my like rage.
It's normal, unacceptable for actors to kind of cast off
my life when a director yells cut. And I know
we've seen a lot of harmful representations in the disabled community,
and we've talked about this just among ourselves. Outside of
(37:59):
this progress, anyway, but the whole sort of idea that
one of the easiest ways to win an Oscar or
to win some sort of award is to play a
disabled person because of that physical transformation as an able-bodied actor.
Tara Moss (38:14):
And, of course, in the disability community that's often called
creeping up. Yeah, so it is viewed by many disabled
people as equivalent to kind of blackface or, yeah, some
other appropriation culturally or in terms of ethnicity. And here
you have it still quite acceptable to you to have
(38:35):
a film sweep up all the Oscars because an actor is,
you know, quote unquote brave enough to represent someone who's disabled.
And this is in the context of the fact that
many disabled actors can't get work. I mean, huge limitations there.
So the the roles that they would be really uniquely
suited to representing like authentically and accurately and using their
(38:59):
skills with they still are not getting those parts. So that's,
you know, definitely a point of, I think, really a
legitimate disappointment from the disability community. And I, yeah, I
I share that view as well. I find it really disappointing.
Hannah Diviney (39:14):
So I think specifically with Disney, like the idea kind
of came from going to see the Pixar film inside
out in 2015. And for anyone who hasn't seen that film,
that's a really beautiful representation of mental health. So basically,
they've like personified the emotions inside this little kid, Ted.
(39:35):
So you've got like joy, sadness, anger, fear and one
under that I can't remember. It's this beautiful film and
like this so many levels to it as any adults
who have watched kids movies, no, there's always a level
of like joke that you're only ever going to get
(39:55):
if you're an adult. And I think there's so much nuance,
depending on where you are in childhood in this film,
and I thought that was really clever to like treat
such a kind of taboo, I guess, an unexpectedly heavy
topic for a kids film with such care and nuance.
(40:17):
And I guess from there, I sort of thought, Well,
if they can do that, it doesn't feel like it
would be too impossible for Disney to create a disabled
Disney princess. So we launched the campaign December 3rd last year,
which was International Day of Persons with a Disability, and
that's celebrated on December 3rd every year. To put that
in your calendars, everybody, and basically the idea to choose
(40:40):
a Disney princess was this really strategic feeling from my
end that there some of the most visible children's characters
in the world. They're the ones who you see on
the bedspreads, in the lunchboxes and the toys, books, birthday parties.
So if a disabled Disney princess was made, she would
really be everywhere.
Tara Moss (41:02):
And please let the storyline not involve her magically becoming non-disabled,
so therefore be more accepted. Please. No, I think that's
a wonderful campaign. I hope Disney takes, you know that
that work you're doing there and all those signatures and guys. Yeah,
(41:22):
this is an area we have not explored and it's,
you know, really important. I mean, depending on which statistics
you use, about a quarter of the population is disabled
like it's, you know, not a small group. Actually, we're
not we're not a fringe group.
Hannah Diviney (41:36):
So and it's the only marginal group that anyone can
join at any time too.
Tara Moss (41:41):
That's it! I've got my hand up there.
Hannah Diviney (41:44):
Yeah, right. Now, one of the things I'm curious about
is since you've. Become disabled. Has there been this perception
that all the work you ever do is only ever
going to be about disability for man?
Tara Moss (42:02):
Probably. I'm not very good at living up to people's expectations.
I tend to do things my own way. So if
everyone thinks I'm only going to write about disability issues now,
they're they'll be disappointed because I'm I have some pretty
varied interests. Having said that, I do think it's really
important to speak out about and focus on disability issues.
(42:25):
So I'm certainly doing that and it's given me more
insight to be able to do that advocacy better, you know?
But yeah, I'm a fiction writer and I'm going to
represent what exists out there, including people with disabilities, but
it's not going to be the focus of the story.
It's just part of the world that we live in.
(42:45):
Like Sam Baker, who is one of the main characters
in the war widow. My latest fiction book is set
in the 1940s. Yep, he's a disabled war vet, so
very true to the time. And like, how could you
write that book? That's a post-war novel without mentioning disability,
for starters. You know, a really important segment of the population.
(43:07):
A larger segment came back from the war with psychological
and physical trauma and injury and disability. You know, that's
that's real. So he's a character that's in there along
with other characters that just are people who have disabilities.
And it's just it's not the focus of story, it's
just that these are people that are there.
Hannah Diviney (43:26):
Yeah, I think that's really important.
Tara Moss (43:27):
They would have been there, they were there. And, you know,
disabilities is still there today, always and every community. But
I just think there's a benefit and being really direct
and advocating on disability. But there's also benefit and just,
you know, having it as part of the picture and
normalizing in that way because that's real. That's life, that's
(43:51):
that's where, you know, all the people around us. Yeah.
Have these differences.
Hannah Diviney (43:56):
I know you've just finished a new book.
Tara Moss (43:58):
I have book number 14.
Hannah Diviney (44:00):
I saw that a couple of weeks ago. I know.
And my goodness, I can't believe you've written 14 books.
Tara Moss (44:06):
Where does the time go? Where does the time go?
And I sort of had disappeared for a while to
finish that book, and I was really happy this year
and 2021 to be recognized as a global change maker
by a conscious being magazine. You know, disabled people writing
under disabilities. And just like just to have that recognition
(44:29):
in that small way was really important to me to
know that I have, you know, support that, that we
are working together and that I'm not like getting it wrong,
you know, because none of us, none of us are
perfect and I'm doing the best I can in terms
of advocacy. And you know, I don't I don't know
(44:49):
it all and every little bit that that we do,
I think, I think helps. It was nice just to
get that. Yeah. I want to say it's like a
little bit of acceptance there, and it's a nice feeling,
nice feeling and to be in that company. Oh my God.
Hannah Diviney (45:04):
Wonderful. I think that no one has a roadmap to
kind of how to do. Any of this stuff, so
we're all just figuring it out as we go. I
think we're slowly getting there, but we have a long,
long way to go.
Tara Moss (45:18):
This is the time, Hannah. We've got this, we've got this.
We're going to push this forward. We're going to propel
this forward.
Hannah Diviney (45:25):
Sometimes it can feel like pushing a boulder up a hill,
but we can do this.
Tara Moss (45:28):
Yeah, it's not Sisyphus. We won't have to push the
same boulder over and over again that it is painful
to even think about. I don't think I can push
boulders these days, if I ever could. But that, yeah,
I think there is some movement happening. And in terms
of social justice, disability feels like it's, you know, really
well and truly overdue as a focus for people just
(45:50):
kind of to think about and kind of unpick some
of their preconceived notions and biases about because it's so
relevant and part of our communities at every level at,
you know, all ages and all parts of the world.
It's part of the world. It's it has to be
normalized because disability is a normal part of human life
(46:10):
and human existence and always has been.
Hannah Diviney (46:13):
Yes, and it's not. It's not a weakness, ADA. That's
another thing we kind of got to do away with
as well.
Tara Moss (46:19):
Yeah. In fact, some of the strongest people I know
how are people who have disabilities of various types. In fact,
it's sort of like self-evidently true that they're really frickin strong.
Hannah Diviney (46:30):
You kind of have to be to get through it
because otherwise you're like, Well, this isn't going to work.
But I guess one of the hopes of our community
during the pandemic, as perverse as it might sound, is
that hopefully with the impacts of COVID, people might start
(46:51):
to take disability and chronic illness more seriously.
Tara Moss (46:57):
I'd love that to be the case. I'd love that
to be the. It's hard to talk silver linings, but
that could be the wakeup call that's needed to have
the general public and governments. Yes, and businesses and powers
that be acknowledge that health matters a lot and health
comes in a lot of varieties and we need to
(47:21):
acknowledge disability and chronic illness as a thing that's in
our communities, a thing we can experience at any time
and something that needs to be, you know, prioritized in
ways that it hasn't been before.
Hannah Diviney (47:34):
Mm-Hmm. And I think anything that we can do to
make disability a less scary experience, a less confusing experience,
or less kind of isolating one, no matter how we
do that, that's that's all going to be for the
greater benefit of everybody.
Tara Moss (47:53):
So beautifully put, Hannah. So beautifully put. Thank you. And
I don't think we could end on a better note
than that. That's just spot on. You know, let's try
to make the road smoother for people ahead, you know? Yeah.
Hannah Diviney (48:08):
Yeah, definitely.
Tara Moss (48:10):
Well, thank you so much for the chat. Hannah was awesome.
Hannah Diviney (48:14):
Yeah, it's been so lovely to talk to you.
Andy McLean (48:18):
That was Tara Moss in conversation with Hannah Diviney.
Ben McAlary (48:22):
Yeah, how good was that discussion? We loved it so
much that we've invited Tara back for a future episode
to discuss advocacy in greater depth with Bronya Metherall, who
is the general manager influence and social impact at Cerebral
Palsy Alliance.
Andy McLean (48:40):
Yeah. So to make sure you don't miss that, subscribe
now to cerebral conversations on your favorite podcast platform. And
while you there, feel free to leave us a rating
or
Ben McAlary (48:50):
review to learn more about today's episode. Head over to
the show notes at cerebral palsy dot org dot a you
and to join the conversation, follow us on social media
Andy McLean (49:01):
and that's all from us for this episode. So until
next time, thanks very much for listening and goodbye for now.
Female voiceover (49:13):
The music for this podcast was kindly supplied by Ocean Alley.
Check out the band's music on Bandcamp or visit Ocean
Alley dot com dot a--you.
Hello, and welcome back to Cerebral Conversations, my name is
Ben McAlary.
Andy McLean (00:06):
And I'm Andy McLean. Hello. Today is World Cerebral Palsy Day,
and so we've got an extra special episode with two
extra special guests Tara Moss and Hannah Diviney. We absolutely
cannot wait to share this one with you.
Ben McAlary (00:21):
Now I'm just going to go through a few of
Tara's achievements, Andy, so just bear with me for a moment.
She's a Canadian Australian author who has worked as a
documentary maker and presenter. She's an academic, a broadcaster, a
model and a UNICEF national ambassador. Now, back in 2016,
(00:42):
Tara had a hip injury that left her with chronic
nerve pain and mobility issues. She's since become a powerful
voice in the area of disability advocacy.
Andy McLean (00:53):
Now, if you're listening to that, you might think, Oh,
Tara is quite a high achiever, but I'm going to
match you, Ben. Right here, I've got Hannah Diviney now.
Hannah is also a disability advocate. She's also a writer.
She's the founder of The Crazy Kosky Climb. She's editor
in chief of Missing Perspectives, a 2020 young Australian of
(01:14):
the Year nominee. And as if all that wasn't enough,
she's also campaigning with an international campaign for a disabled
Disney princess. How cool is that?
Ben McAlary (01:25):
It's amazing now, and we could talk all day about
this one, but look, we don't want to give too
much away. Nobody can discuss the issues covered, as well
as to people with lived experience of disability. So that's
enough from us. Let's hear from Tara and Hannah.
Tara Moss (01:41):
Oh, Hannah, I'm so glad we're finally getting a chance
to talk.
Hannah Diviney (01:45):
Yes, me too.
Tara Moss (01:47):
We were we were kind of chatting before beforehand about
some of the myths around disability. And I guess as
a writer and a speaker, I've been really focused on
stereotypes for a very long time. And since I've become
a disabled person, it has really struck me how relevant
(02:08):
this conversation is to disability. There's so many stereotypes and myths.
It's just quite mind boggling how misrepresented disability has been
in popular culture and in the public's mind. Would you
mind commenting on that? Like, what are some of the
myths you end up coming across in your life?
Hannah Diviney (02:27):
Um, well, one of the main kind of myths is,
and this was definitely when I was a lot younger,
it doesn't happen so much now, but kind of an
assumption that because I'm in a wheelchair, my intelligence on my
lack ability to perceive the world is somehow. I guess
(02:52):
damaged in a way, so people would be. Would be
surprised when I would be able to, like, hold the
conversation or that I was going to normal school, or
that if we were listening to something in the classroom
that I would be able to ask an intelligent question
or something like that. And I guess that's happened to
(03:13):
a little bit back pre-COVID, when I was traveling to
and from uni, you would see people's eyes kind of
widen and surprise if they're sitting next to you on
the train. And they happened to ask you, like where
you're coming from. And I'm saying, Oh, I've just come
from uni. They'd be like, this moment of, Oh. OK.
(03:35):
And then you'd be like, yes.
Tara Moss (03:36):
Surprise, surprise, surprise, here I am. Yeah. A fully formed
human being having a conversation with you?
Hannah Diviney (03:45):
Yeah. And then I guess the other interesting ones to me,
and I don't know if this is specific to Australia
because obviously we grow up putting sport on something of
a pedestal. But I would often be asked as a kid,
So what's your Paralympic sport going to be? And part
(04:07):
of me would be like, well, it's great that you
asked that question and that you think I'm capable of
doing that. On the one hand, second, you're not asking
everybody just what their Olympic sport is going to be,
and you're not assuming that every able-bodied kid even wants
to go to the Olympics. So why are you assuming
that that's like the only level of success for a
(04:29):
disabled person?
Tara Moss (04:31):
It's such a narrow focus, and I guess it speaks
to how little visibility there is for disability as there's
the Paralympics. And then there's what we see in movies
and you know, the sum of those parts just not
get anywhere near the whole of of real people's, real
disabled people's lives and, you know, the variety of their
(04:54):
experience or even disabilities.
Hannah Diviney (04:56):
Well, I mean, it definitely affected the way I perceived
what my adulthood might look like as a kid like I.
Didn't really see any disabled adults growing up. In fact,
I can remember the first time I saw a disabled
woman and she had her wheelchair on top of her car,
(05:18):
like in a roof rack style thing. And then she
pressed the button and the wheelchair kind of came down,
and I remember thinking that was the coolest thing ever.
Tara Moss (05:27):
That is the coolest thing ever. I want that. I
want that. That sounds awesome.
Hannah Diviney (05:33):
Yeah, right? But I had literally never seen anything like
that before, and I've never seen like any disabled teachers
or just even people like out in the community, just
living their lives. Like, obviously, now that I've joined the
advocacy community online and stuff, I'm exposed to a lot
more disability and a lot more people doing amazing things.
Tara Moss (05:55):
Let's talk for a moment about social media because certainly
through the pandemic, but even far before then, I I
think it was really online where I began learning the
most about disability before I became a disabled person myself,
but certainly since as well. It's where I've kind of
learned the most. I've learned the most from other disabled,
(06:18):
often women, but really just the whole disability community. How
did we ever get by before this way of finding
each other like I?
Hannah Diviney (06:28):
Yeah, I'm really not sure it would have been like
trying to, I guess, do a puzzle without knowing what
the picture should look like. Yeah, it would have been
really difficult to navigate, like some of the things that
I've learned about the ways in which, like, we're conditioned
to think and like internalized embolism and all of those things.
(06:50):
And like just. Like, not seeing the facts that I
have to rest as weakness or that kind of thing,
that's been really helpful and that's all stuff that's been
made clear to me through the disabled community online.
Tara Moss (07:08):
It's disabled advocates yet have made such a huge difference.
And I guess outside of the disability community, people might
imagine a lot of that advocacy is like work to
try to educate non-disabled people. And yeah, that's of course
that's part of it. A lot of us can get
a little bit tired of just that, you know that element.
(07:29):
But I think a lot of the focus really is
on community and solidarity. It's actually about being visible so
that someone who's out there right now who, like you said,
does doesn't know what the puzzle looks like, knows that
they're part of it, but just doesn't know how is
this going to play out? What do I do? How
do I cope? Can actually see someone else and go, Oh,
(07:51):
I see the solutions they're using to get from A
to B, or I see how they're managing their condition. Yeah,
and their disability. And they can see like rich and
interesting lives and ways to like workarounds. You know, like, definitely,
we're constantly finding workarounds for things other people might take
for granted and the vast majority of those things I've
(08:13):
learned from either just my own hit and miss experiments. Yes,
or disabled people. Do you have any examples that you
want to share of kind of those like little tips
and tricks that have helped?
Hannah Diviney (08:26):
Probably the the whole idea of like pacing yourself that
that was a really new one. Because obviously, like you,
I struggle a great deal with pain and fatigue and
especially with cerebral palsy. Fatigue is not something that anyone
ever brings up to you as something. So when that
first started hitting, that was like, What the hell is
(08:47):
going on? Something else must be wrong. Hmm. Because nobody
had ever said, Hey, by the way, it's probably likely
that you're going to start feeling pretty fatigued as you
get older. So yet pearly pacing myself is the number
one kind of work around. But even just like the
visibility of disabled people in relationships or disabled people being
(09:09):
parents or that kind of thing like that sort of
visibility is very helpful to me in kind of combating
against my insecurities around whether I can have that, whether
that's look in the future for me, whether it's something
that that other people would kind of want to join
(09:29):
the party on, I guess if that makes sense.
Tara Moss (09:31):
Yeah. Well, just seeing that disabled people have whole lives
and friends and like, we're just human beings like everyone
else and we just, you know, have these particular things
that we have to do differently because of our disabilities
or that we can't do because of our disabilities. And
the idea, I guess, is so often about like a
disabled person and carer or disabled person by themselves. And
(09:55):
there's like no one else in the picture. It's just
that's just simply not that's simply not the reality. I
find that when I'm, I guess, advocating on accessibility issues
often even like a very well-meaning council will simply not
factor in that disabled person might need access to a
place that you know they're going to bring their child to,
(10:16):
or they're going to bring their whole family to, and
they're going to have or they're going to have friends.
Hannah Diviney (10:20):
So yeah, and then they're like, Oh, whoops, we didn't
think you would come here like, Oh, yeah, that's right.
Tara Moss (10:29):
It's like, if you make a place inaccessible for one
disabled person, then it's like there may be, you know,
five people in that immediate family. Then that can't go there. Yeah,
you know, or 50, depending on, you know, how big
the group is going to be at any particular time.
So I think that's a really good point. Hannah's just
the the fact that the visibility online allows us to
(10:50):
see people's lives like their lives being lived. Yeah. And
rather than this sort of this individual focus on kind of, Hey,
this person has a particular difference or, you know, look
at their mobility aid or whatever it is. Yes, it's like, no,
look at the look their whole life as well. And
just seeing the context in the bigger picture.
Hannah Diviney (11:12):
And I think as well, unfortunately, kind of in mainstream
media and society, people still sort of cling to this
image of like the sad disabled person and look in
the name of being completely honest about things. There are
days when you do get sad or you do get
angry or you're kind of almost grieving for the life
(11:34):
you didn't have, or in some cases, the life you lost,
depending on what you what your experience of disability is.
But I think the fact that like disabled joy and.
Disabled like fun is so often missed in society, really
(11:56):
doesn't do much for like people's understanding of who who
we are as rich human beings. I guess I was wondering.
In your experience, like when you became disabled, were people
expecting you to sort of curl up in a ball
and kind of hide away from the world or.
Tara Moss (12:18):
Yeah, look, I think there was an expectation that it
would just go away. And I think I hit away
from the world, I think there was some internalized embolism
there as well as just being a bit like at sea.
I just didn't know what was going to happen and
how to deal with what was happening, because no one
would just tell me, Oh, this is this change in
(12:39):
your life. So prepare in these ways. And yet no
one gave me, there's no textbook, no no, and explain
things to me.
Hannah Diviney (12:46):
I really wish there was a textbook tour that would
make life so much easier.
Tara Moss (12:51):
Oh, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? Especially for those of us
who have dynamic disabilities and like, you know, the majority
of disabilities are invisible or non static as well. And
it's like, I'm one of those people who could look, Yeah,
you know, the same on the outside, but I could
no longer wait bear comfortably. And I have a bunch
of nerve pain, so people didn't have an expectation that
(13:14):
I was disabled. It just sort of had to keep
being an issue, keep being a limitation for a long
time before it was like, All right, you know, I'm
not going to be putting the cane away. I really
need it. And the cane also became a walker in
a wheelchair. And that was like, that was when my
life started coming back because I needed those things for
(13:34):
my freedom and participation in life. And part of the
reason I think that I initially just didn't understand. Yeah,
what I needed to do was because I didn't know
that I was disabled or I didn't know, you know,
I didn't. It's just not as black and white as
most people tend to imagine. So once I kind of accepted,
(13:55):
Oh yes, here I am with this condition and I
had a diagnosis, which is a privilege some people don't get.
It helps that it's like, Oh, OK, the penny drops,
all right, so all these things I'm experiencing are from
it's a cluster of symptoms around the same issue complex
(14:15):
regional pain syndrome. I can read up on it. I
can understand it better. When I'm working with physical therapists
and specialists, we can all understand it better. But that
for a lot of people, does doesn't happen overnight. It
just doesn't happen that easily. So it was a long process.
And I think for some of that, I just waited
for it to pass or I kept going to see doctors,
(14:38):
but I didn't necessarily know how to use tools to
help myself get out. And I didn't know that I
would need them in six months, you know, time or
a year's time and so on. So I like the
visibility that I have now and the connection I have
with the disability community because that's one of the lessons
that we all kind of have by being visible is
(15:02):
being able to recognize each other and other people who
are experiencing mobility problems, actually recognizing it. Oh, it's OK
for me to use a cane in public because it
hurts to walk and the cane helps. Like if it
helps you, you have permission to use it. That's OK.
The diagnosis might still come like you don't have to
(15:24):
wait at home for kind of permission to say, Oh,
I need this. And that's some of the feedback that
I get. Well, several times a week, sometimes several times
a day from people going, Oh, I feel I felt
okay to speak to my physiotherapist about using a wheelchair
because I really needed one years ago and just, you know,
(15:47):
stubbornly didn't or was never told by anyone. This should
be an option you're considering.
Hannah Diviney (15:52):
And then now I'm in a position where it's like, Oh,
this would've been so much easier.
Tara Moss (15:56):
Yeah, this would have been so much easier. Yeah, it's
it's it's just it's a complicated journey and it's never
the same for any two people. And I think that
having visibility in the media and in popular culture and
social media allows us to see. The variety and reality
(16:17):
of disability and actually identify when we're like one of
those people or we know someone else, yeah, who's one
of those people and could be helped or could improve
their lives in some way.
Hannah Diviney (16:29):
I'm really lucky in that like. My diagnosis came pretty
much straight away because I was born three months early
and with a blade on the brain and all that stuff.
So doctors were like, OK, we are looking for the
answer to this because something is wrong. So yeah, I
was able to be diagnosed really early and start receiving
(16:52):
like the support that I needed from about 12 weeks old.
So that sort of really early intervention and that kind
of immediate acceptance of like, OK. Everyone here knows that
this is a thing that is happening in my life,
like I don't have to fight to be believed, I
don't have to sit in a doctor's room and be like,
This is what's happening, and nobody can explain why. It's like,
(17:15):
that is a privilege in itself. And obviously, there's things
that come from living with a disability from birth that
aren't so great. But I definitely think having that belief
and that immediate sort of. Well, this is just how
your life is going to have to be, if you
want to even be like a functioning human helps helps
(17:39):
a lot with that.
Tara Moss (17:41):
I think it would be less confusing in some ways,
but I also think, you know, you can speak well
to the challenges of being a kid like yourself and
have having other kids not understand or having you not
understand because you can't see. You can't see people like
you represented in the wider world. It's like, how do I,
(18:04):
if you can't see it, can't be it, you know,
what am I going to become? How does this work?
Is that big question you would have, you know, anyone
has when they encounter disability in their personal lives, but
certainly as a child? Yeah, it's a huge challenge.
Hannah Diviney (18:19):
It used to be very confusing and especially like my
two younger sisters that I have extremely sporty, extremely fit, well,
able to do things with their bodies kind of thing.
And that sort of, I guess, gap between us sometimes
felt really pronounced because like even though I'm the oldest,
(18:40):
sometimes I would feel like the youngest because I need
so much help or because, like my sisters can go
and do a cartwheel and I'm like, Yeah, well, that's
not happening for like even just just run up the
stairs to grab something or something like that. Yeah, I
think definitely as a kid, there's a level of like
trying to figure out what it means. And I think
(19:03):
part of the power of visibility is that it would
have really helped me to navigate that more smoothly than
I have ended up, especially because I kind of started
realizing I was different when I was, I think, like
three I was at daycare and I saw my best
friend at the time. I remember it clear as day
(19:25):
stand up from the table after we finished. Our lunch
and I watched a stand up and kind of saw
what her body did look down at my legs and went, OK,
that's what we're going to do. And then when nothing happened,
I was really confused being like, Wait, what can I
do that? And then having that whole of, well, you're different, like.
(19:48):
This is what happened, you've got this condition, cerebral palsy,
all this stuff, the blah blah blah. And this being
like the big. But why? I guess because little kids
especially ask why so much and. They're not really being
an answer for that was really tough, especially because I'm
(20:08):
a particularly curious person, like I was the kind of
kid who would ask questions from the time I got
up in the morning to the time I went to
bed at night, to the point where my parents would
be like, OK, that's enough questions for today, like, Oh
my God, just like, chill out for this. So having
this big question about yourself, that kind of no one
could answer. And obviously, like they still really can't answer,
(20:32):
like science and medicine is working out, and it has
come a bit closer to sort of figuring out like
what might have happened, but they can't ever be 100
percent sure that this is the reason. And I think
having that giant question about your life is really weird
for your identity because it's kind of like it shapes
itself around a black hole, almost.
Tara Moss (20:54):
Hmm. Well, with complex regional pain syndrome, again, I'm amazed
at how little science knows about it, like, you know,
it's been report reported since the Civil War, and it's
had a couple of different names and there's a lot
of documentation on it and a lot of medical journals
writing on it specialists around the world. But they still
(21:17):
can't agree precisely on how it happens. It's generally an
injury to a limb. Usually there's a nerve injury, but
sometimes not.
Hannah Diviney (21:27):
It must be so frustrating.
Tara Moss (21:28):
Yeah, and it's the treatments specifically that people can't agree
on because people are so different and the way they
respond is so different. And that's a tough thing. I
think a lot of non-disabled or non chronically ill people
might be surprised by is that say you finally get
that diagnosis, then you want there to be a treatment
(21:51):
that works for it and they're just there just isn't,
you know,
Hannah Diviney (21:56):
it's not like a one size fits all box isn't like, AHA. Well,
this is what we do.
Tara Moss (22:00):
It's not a one size fits all. And even though yeah,
and a multi-disciplinary approach, which I think when it comes
to pain issues is absolutely, probably most chronic illness issues
and disabilities, but certainly with chronic pain. I can say
a multi-disciplinary approach is vital because nothing's going to work
without a multidisciplinary approach. Even so, there's not agreement on
(22:25):
exactly what that should look like, how much of each
of the disciplines are involved, how much of it's going
to be physical, pharmacological medical interventions, you know, you know,
how what does that look like? It's it can speak
to the best in the fields, and they actually don't
have an answer for you. They have a lot of
(22:47):
questions like this might work and this might work. And.
Hannah Diviney (22:51):
Yeah, and I think one of the things that I
often say that I'm grateful for is that the things
that I can't do, I can only imagine what they
feel like, oh, look like. Whereas I think for anyone
who acquires a disability later in life, you actually have
(23:11):
that like physical memory of being able to do something
and having that kind of be taken away. I guess
I'm curious, like how you've kind of coped with like
adjusting your own expectations for yourself.
Tara Moss (23:29):
That's a good question, Hannah, and I wish I had
a great answer. I'm still working on. It is the reality.
You know, like there's usually grief associated with this. And yes,
and I'm still there. You know, like, I obviously have
lots of good days and I think I'm a pretty
darn positive person. Just listen to me pretty darn positive.
(23:51):
I sound so Canadian right now, and I say that
I'm I'm a really positive person and self-motivated and always
looking for ways to to do things and to keep
going and to improve things. But of course, there's a
lot of grief, and I just remember a particular day
when I was in Australia last year and I was
(24:13):
a couple of blocks from my house sitting on my
walker or rolling, or there's like a little seed on
it and I have to sit down any time I'm
standing more than, you know. Sometimes it's a few seconds,
sometimes it's a few minutes. I can stand before the
pain gets really high and I get dizzy. So I
was sitting there and these hikers walked past, and I
just remember the incredible grief that sort of flew into
(24:38):
me and just hung on me because I was one
of those people for so long. Like, I hiked that
track so many times and was one of those people
who just would would chat and walk like it's you're
not doing anything. You're on a you're on a level
surface walking with your friends, totally normal. And the fact
(24:59):
that I can't do that now and wouldn't be able
to take those hikes on those tracks anymore was something
that I grieved. And I don't know that I'm on
the other side of it, but I'm certainly adjusting to
are beginning to, like, accept that there's this whole other
world that I can experience differently now and that those
(25:19):
things that are in the past are things that I
did get experience. I mean, the grief coming from loss
means that you had something and you no one can
ever take that away from you. You know, I I
got to take those hikes. That's a privilege that I
was able to do that. And I guess now I
recognize that it was a privilege and I get to
(25:40):
hang onto, you know what that was without an expectation
that it will be again. I mean, I just can't
do those hikes now.
Hannah Diviney (25:49):
That's a really great way to look at it, I think.
And do you find that like in terms of like
processing that emotion that like writing helps?
Tara Moss (25:58):
I think writing helps because writing has been a part
of me since I was a little girl.
Hannah Diviney (26:03):
Yeah, me too.
Tara Moss (26:03):
Writing is a way to experience and create worlds, you know, like,
it's an incredible thing to do, whether you're writing for yourself,
which was how I started or writing professionally, which is
what I do now. Writing is incredibly freeing. Like, I
think books are the most incredible time machines and, you know,
(26:24):
transport that you can hold in your hand. You can
go anywhere, any time with a book. So I love books,
and I think writing has been a lifesaver for me
through this experience and before.
Hannah Diviney (26:37):
Yeah, I would agree to. So I think I was
four when I wrote my first story.
Tara Moss (26:45):
Do you remember what it was about?
Hannah Diviney (26:47):
Yeah, it was about. So all the kids in my
preschool kind of went down for nap time. It was
around Christmas, and when we woke up, we weren't at
the preschool anymore. We were in the North Pole to
visit Santa and to like, tell him what we wanted
for Christmas that year. I, I have it somewhere around
(27:08):
here to find it. And then basically, like, we got
to tell Santa what we what we wanted, and then
we just kind of felt sleepy again and woke back
up in the preschool and were like, Guess what moment
that we got to go to the North Pole? Just
like this really cute, magical kind of story? And I,
my mom had to write it out for me. But
I remember kind of that feeling of almost like a
(27:31):
door being opened that I didn't even know was there
and then being like, Oh, OK, this is fun. This
is what I'm supposed to do. So. So as a kid,
I would often write with the same dedication that, like
my sisters, would go to soccer practice or to ballet
or or whatever. The fact that I get to do
that now for a job and like people pay me
(27:52):
and people are actually reading, my work is is huge.
To me, it's
Tara Moss (27:57):
a dream job. And I think that, yeah, having disabled
writers work out their. Is one of the key parts
of changing. The myths and issues of stereotypes around disability
like too long, have we had a situation where non-disabled
people were writing about disability and getting things wrong, you know,
(28:20):
and now having disabled writers, you know, out there and
being read in our stories, being read is just incredibly important.
I know this is a it's a passion of yours
as well, like with missing perspectives. Can you tell us
a bit about that?
Hannah Diviney (28:36):
Yes, a missing perspectives is this kind of brand new initiative.
We're hoping it will be a not for profit very soon.
That kind of seeks to sort of. Address the marginalization
of women and girls globally around the world, because we
came across this report from the Gates Foundation that basically
(28:59):
said that women were like deeply underrepresented in the news
media decision making policy, all of those kind of things.
And as a result, they felt really disconnected from those
those arenas. And obviously, like I know for myself personally,
like the power that I found in being able to
(29:22):
tell my own story and have ownership of that. And
I guess that's the similar experience that we want to
give to as many women and girls as we can.
So at this stage, I think we've had contributors from
over 40 countries and we're being read in about 80.
I think it's
Tara Moss (29:39):
amazing. Congratulations.
Hannah Diviney (29:42):
It's absolutely bananas to have happened this fast as well
is a bit like being shut out of a.
Tara Moss (29:47):
Oh, I'm in the best possible way yet in
Hannah Diviney (29:51):
the best possible way.
Tara Moss (29:52):
But missing perspectives, it's a it's a great name and
a great aim because it is really one of the,
you know, the biggest challenges that marginalized groups face is
representation and just being heard. Yeah, I know some of
those stats. In fact, I wrote a book called Speaking Out,
which was really spurred on by the fact that fewer
(30:17):
than one in four of everyone in the world that
we hear from or about is female. So fewer than
one in four. The rest are all male. So those
are the people we're hearing from or about.
Hannah Diviney (30:28):
That statistic just makes me like, just sigh deeply.
Tara Moss (30:32):
You think like, I'd love this to be different in
like 2021? And here we are. So I do occasionally see,
like really encouraging shifts in stats. But of course, you
need it to continue long term when you need it
to also be like brought in across groups. And I
have found that when people talk diversity and inclusion, often
(30:54):
they leave out disabled people are disabled women.
Hannah Diviney (30:57):
Yeah, it's almost like they kind of forget that we're
like there and I'm like, Hello, yeah, that's right.
Tara Moss (31:03):
And disability cuts across all other marginalized groups as well.
So obviously there are disabled women, there are disabled women
of colour, the disabled indigenous women. And in fact, like
there's often a disproportionate number. So yeah, it's really yeah.
It's I think, missing perspectives. And just like acknowledging that
(31:23):
those perspectives are important and need to be heard is
such a great focus. And I, I just can't be
happier with what you're doing there. Yeah.
Hannah Diviney (31:33):
Well, I I feel really grateful because I was originally
just brought onto that project as someone who was going
to write a piece because a friend, Phoebe Santillan is
our founder, and she reached out and was like, Hey,
I'm doing this thing. And her her mum used to
be a teacher of mine, and she said, My mom said,
you were a really good writer, so I was hoping
(31:54):
you could write a piece and then kind of eventually
I've ended up kind of becoming, I guess, the quote
unquote like editor in chief. I love it. Of that.
And like, we've really built it together. Yeah, I feel
really lucky to get to do that. And there's some
really exciting partnerships that we are kind of pursuing and
(32:16):
building at the moment that I can't wait for people
to see like the content that we make.
Tara Moss (32:21):
There's some pretty exciting news for you. Young Australian of
the Year. Tell us about that.
Hannah Diviney (32:32):
So in an unbelievable kind of series of events, I
have been nominated for Young Australian of the Year for
2022 for my advocacy work, and the nomination in particular
comes from this event that I do called the Crazy,
(32:54):
Crazy Climate, which I'm the co-founder of, where basically we
help kids with disabilities, mainly cerebral palsy, because we do
it through Cerebral Palsy Alliance. But we have done other
disabilities conquer Mount Kosciuszko, which is one of the seven
summits and like Australia's highest point, so someone who's done
(33:16):
a couple of climbs with me through that kind of jokingly, well,
I thought he was joking, said to me at that,
said to me at the end of the last one, Oh,
I think this is like young Australian of the immaterial.
And I sort of laughed it off because what else
are you supposed to do when somebody says something like
that to you? But he was actually quite serious. And yeah,
(33:36):
it's it's been amazing so far, even just the amount
of interest since announcing my nomination and the amount of
kind of eyeballs that it's got into my work into
the things that I do is it's pretty crazy to
think about.
Tara Moss (33:50):
It's not crazy at all, because it's a well-deserved nomination,
and I've got to say, I'm so pleased for you. Oh,
thank you. You know, it's it's a well deserved bit
of recognition for all the advocacy work you've been doing
in it. Thank you. We can't even encapsulate all of
it in this one conversation, but it's appreciated. It's making
a difference. And I'm really happy to see you recognize.
Hannah Diviney (34:12):
Well, that means a lot because I think. The one
thing that I'm always conscious of is like. Are people
in the disabled community going to be OK with me
having this quote unquote success? Look, I don't want anyone
to ever feel like I'm taking up too much space
(34:34):
or like I'm taking away someone else's chance to have
a voice or something like that. So to have that
support really means a lot.
Tara Moss (34:45):
You have that support and not just from me, so
you don't you worry about that and not only that,
but this idea that the the disability community has this
very small slice of the pie, which is unfortunately still true.
We just got to expand that. Yeah, pie, baby. We
just got it's got to have more of our voices
out there. And, you know, and that recognition is incredibly
(35:06):
important for all of us. So like you are, you
were paving the way. And I love it.
Hannah Diviney (35:13):
I'm trying. We'll see how it goes, see how we go.
It doesn't get announced till January, but fingers crossed it
progresses to the to the later stages.
Tara Moss (35:24):
Yeah, but already, even just in being nominated, it's just
great to have that recognition, and I think my view
is that it doesn't have to help the whole community
for you to be nominated, but I think it is.
I think it is. So that's another bonus. And yeah,
I don't like that. As disabled people, we feel like
we've got the weight of, you know, expectation on us
(35:44):
for a whole like community, huge segment of the population.
Of course, we can never, you know, can never live
up to this idea that we have to represent everyone
we don't. But I do think that you're being recognized
is really helpful to all of us. And so thank you.
Hannah Diviney (36:01):
You're very welcome. Thank you for everything you do, too.
Tara Moss (36:04):
I know we're both super passionate about representation and disabled
people's stories and visibility and just circling back to, you know,
childhood and meeting to really see disability normalized and see
examples of disabled people around you. I know that you
(36:26):
you've worked for or advocated for Disney to have a
disabled princess. Can you tell us about that?
Hannah Diviney (36:32):
Yeah. So that comes from growing up, a massive Disney
fan and kind of also I. Didn't see a disabled
character in my life on screen until I was 10,
so that's like a whole decade of my life, not
seeing anybody who sort of look like me and being like,
Where am I like, why am I invisible? This whole thing?
(36:55):
And just for anyone wondering, that was Artie Abrams from Glee.
I was really excited because I was like, You can sing,
you can dance, blah blah blah. Like, he's got friends.
All of these kind of things that I that I
love doing and I was super insecure about. I kind
of felt like they were finally recognized and I was like, OK,
(37:16):
I can do this like, this is a guy that's
done this and it's doing things that I love. And
all of that was doing really well until there was
a sequence like in the second season, I think where
he kind of got up and was doing some dance
routine where he was moving around normally. And I was like. Oh, wait,
(37:36):
a second. He's actually able bodied. Cue my like rage.
It's normal, unacceptable for actors to kind of cast off
my life when a director yells cut. And I know
we've seen a lot of harmful representations in the disabled community,
and we've talked about this just among ourselves. Outside of
(37:59):
this progress, anyway, but the whole sort of idea that
one of the easiest ways to win an Oscar or
to win some sort of award is to play a
disabled person because of that physical transformation as an able-bodied actor.
Tara Moss (38:14):
And, of course, in the disability community that's often called
creeping up. Yeah, so it is viewed by many disabled
people as equivalent to kind of blackface or, yeah, some
other appropriation culturally or in terms of ethnicity. And here
you have it still quite acceptable to you to have
(38:35):
a film sweep up all the Oscars because an actor is,
you know, quote unquote brave enough to represent someone who's disabled.
And this is in the context of the fact that
many disabled actors can't get work. I mean, huge limitations there.
So the the roles that they would be really uniquely
suited to representing like authentically and accurately and using their
(38:59):
skills with they still are not getting those parts. So that's,
you know, definitely a point of, I think, really a
legitimate disappointment from the disability community. And I, yeah, I
I share that view as well. I find it really disappointing.
Hannah Diviney (39:14):
So I think specifically with Disney, like the idea kind
of came from going to see the Pixar film inside
out in 2015. And for anyone who hasn't seen that film,
that's a really beautiful representation of mental health. So basically,
they've like personified the emotions inside this little kid, Ted.
(39:35):
So you've got like joy, sadness, anger, fear and one
under that I can't remember. It's this beautiful film and
like this so many levels to it as any adults
who have watched kids movies, no, there's always a level
of like joke that you're only ever going to get
(39:55):
if you're an adult. And I think there's so much nuance,
depending on where you are in childhood in this film,
and I thought that was really clever to like treat
such a kind of taboo, I guess, an unexpectedly heavy
topic for a kids film with such care and nuance.
(40:17):
And I guess from there, I sort of thought, Well,
if they can do that, it doesn't feel like it
would be too impossible for Disney to create a disabled
Disney princess. So we launched the campaign December 3rd last year,
which was International Day of Persons with a Disability, and
that's celebrated on December 3rd every year. To put that
in your calendars, everybody, and basically the idea to choose
(40:40):
a Disney princess was this really strategic feeling from my
end that there some of the most visible children's characters
in the world. They're the ones who you see on
the bedspreads, in the lunchboxes and the toys, books, birthday parties.
So if a disabled Disney princess was made, she would
really be everywhere.
Tara Moss (41:02):
And please let the storyline not involve her magically becoming non-disabled,
so therefore be more accepted. Please. No, I think that's
a wonderful campaign. I hope Disney takes, you know that
that work you're doing there and all those signatures and guys. Yeah,
(41:22):
this is an area we have not explored and it's,
you know, really important. I mean, depending on which statistics
you use, about a quarter of the population is disabled
like it's, you know, not a small group. Actually, we're
not we're not a fringe group.
Hannah Diviney (41:36):
So and it's the only marginal group that anyone can
join at any time too.
Tara Moss (41:41):
That's it! I've got my hand up there.
Hannah Diviney (41:44):
Yeah, right. Now, one of the things I'm curious about
is since you've. Become disabled. Has there been this perception
that all the work you ever do is only ever
going to be about disability for man?
Tara Moss (42:02):
Probably. I'm not very good at living up to people's expectations.
I tend to do things my own way. So if
everyone thinks I'm only going to write about disability issues now,
they're they'll be disappointed because I'm I have some pretty
varied interests. Having said that, I do think it's really
important to speak out about and focus on disability issues.
(42:25):
So I'm certainly doing that and it's given me more
insight to be able to do that advocacy better, you know?
But yeah, I'm a fiction writer and I'm going to
represent what exists out there, including people with disabilities, but
it's not going to be the focus of the story.
It's just part of the world that we live in.
(42:45):
Like Sam Baker, who is one of the main characters
in the war widow. My latest fiction book is set
in the 1940s. Yep, he's a disabled war vet, so
very true to the time. And like, how could you
write that book? That's a post-war novel without mentioning disability,
for starters. You know, a really important segment of the population.
(43:07):
A larger segment came back from the war with psychological
and physical trauma and injury and disability. You know, that's
that's real. So he's a character that's in there along
with other characters that just are people who have disabilities.
And it's just it's not the focus of story, it's
just that these are people that are there.
Hannah Diviney (43:26):
Yeah, I think that's really important.
Tara Moss (43:27):
They would have been there, they were there. And, you know,
disabilities is still there today, always and every community. But
I just think there's a benefit and being really direct
and advocating on disability. But there's also benefit and just,
you know, having it as part of the picture and
normalizing in that way because that's real. That's life, that's
(43:51):
that's where, you know, all the people around us. Yeah.
Have these differences.
Hannah Diviney (43:56):
I know you've just finished a new book.
Tara Moss (43:58):
I have book number 14.
Hannah Diviney (44:00):
I saw that a couple of weeks ago. I know.
And my goodness, I can't believe you've written 14 books.
Tara Moss (44:06):
Where does the time go? Where does the time go?
And I sort of had disappeared for a while to
finish that book, and I was really happy this year
and 2021 to be recognized as a global change maker
by a conscious being magazine. You know, disabled people writing
under disabilities. And just like just to have that recognition
(44:29):
in that small way was really important to me to
know that I have, you know, support that, that we
are working together and that I'm not like getting it wrong,
you know, because none of us, none of us are
perfect and I'm doing the best I can in terms
of advocacy. And you know, I don't I don't know
(44:49):
it all and every little bit that that we do,
I think, I think helps. It was nice just to
get that. Yeah. I want to say it's like a
little bit of acceptance there, and it's a nice feeling,
nice feeling and to be in that company. Oh my God.
Hannah Diviney (45:04):
Wonderful. I think that no one has a roadmap to
kind of how to do. Any of this stuff, so
we're all just figuring it out as we go. I
think we're slowly getting there, but we have a long,
long way to go.
Tara Moss (45:18):
This is the time, Hannah. We've got this, we've got this.
We're going to push this forward. We're going to propel
this forward.
Hannah Diviney (45:25):
Sometimes it can feel like pushing a boulder up a hill,
but we can do this.
Tara Moss (45:28):
Yeah, it's not Sisyphus. We won't have to push the
same boulder over and over again that it is painful
to even think about. I don't think I can push
boulders these days, if I ever could. But that, yeah,
I think there is some movement happening. And in terms
of social justice, disability feels like it's, you know, really
well and truly overdue as a focus for people just
(45:50):
kind of to think about and kind of unpick some
of their preconceived notions and biases about because it's so
relevant and part of our communities at every level at,
you know, all ages and all parts of the world.
It's part of the world. It's it has to be
normalized because disability is a normal part of human life
(46:10):
and human existence and always has been.
Hannah Diviney (46:13):
Yes, and it's not. It's not a weakness, ADA. That's
another thing we kind of got to do away with
as well.
Tara Moss (46:19):
Yeah. In fact, some of the strongest people I know
how are people who have disabilities of various types. In fact,
it's sort of like self-evidently true that they're really frickin strong.
Hannah Diviney (46:30):
You kind of have to be to get through it
because otherwise you're like, Well, this isn't going to work.
But I guess one of the hopes of our community
during the pandemic, as perverse as it might sound, is
that hopefully with the impacts of COVID, people might start
(46:51):
to take disability and chronic illness more seriously.
Tara Moss (46:57):
I'd love that to be the case. I'd love that
to be the. It's hard to talk silver linings, but
that could be the wakeup call that's needed to have
the general public and governments. Yes, and businesses and powers
that be acknowledge that health matters a lot and health
comes in a lot of varieties and we need to
(47:21):
acknowledge disability and chronic illness as a thing that's in
our communities, a thing we can experience at any time
and something that needs to be, you know, prioritized in
ways that it hasn't been before.
Hannah Diviney (47:34):
Mm-Hmm. And I think anything that we can do to
make disability a less scary experience, a less confusing experience,
or less kind of isolating one, no matter how we
do that, that's that's all going to be for the
greater benefit of everybody.
Tara Moss (47:53):
So beautifully put, Hannah. So beautifully put. Thank you. And
I don't think we could end on a better note
than that. That's just spot on. You know, let's try
to make the road smoother for people ahead, you know? Yeah.
Hannah Diviney (48:08):
Yeah, definitely.
Tara Moss (48:10):
Well, thank you so much for the chat. Hannah was awesome.
Hannah Diviney (48:14):
Yeah, it's been so lovely to talk to you.
Andy McLean (48:18):
That was Tara Moss in conversation with Hannah Diviney.
Ben McAlary (48:22):
Yeah, how good was that discussion? We loved it so
much that we've invited Tara back for a future episode
to discuss advocacy in greater depth with Bronya Metherall, who
is the general manager influence and social impact at Cerebral
Palsy Alliance.
Andy McLean (48:40):
Yeah. So to make sure you don't miss that, subscribe
now to cerebral conversations on your favorite podcast platform. And
while you there, feel free to leave us a rating
or
Ben McAlary (48:50):
review to learn more about today's episode. Head over to
the show notes at cerebral palsy dot org dot a you
and to join the conversation, follow us on social media
Andy McLean (49:01):
and that's all from us for this episode. So until
next time, thanks very much for listening and goodbye for now.
Female voiceover (49:13):
The music for this podcast was kindly supplied by Ocean Alley.
Check out the band's music on Bandcamp or visit Ocean
Alley dot com dot a--you.
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