December 17, 2025 • 58 mins
“We can think and act our way to a new feeling. We cannot feel our way to a new way of thinking and acting.”
That line from therapist and author Nicole Zasowski cuts to the heart of anxiety, addiction, and the stories we tell ourselves when life feels uncertain. Nicole is the author of What If It’s Wonderful?—a book built around a disarming and deeply important question: What if, instead of bracing for the worst, we allowed ourselves to hope?
In this conversation, Nicole shares how a season marked by loss, miscarriage, and prolonged uncertainty exposed her own coping mechanisms—performance, control, and pessimism disguised as realism. She explains why catastrophizing isn’t just negative thinking but a form of control, and why preparing for the worst often robs us of joy without actually protecting us from pain.
We also explore the connection between shame and escape, how feelings can be real without being true, and why naming what’s happening inside us is essential for healing. Nicole offers practical ways to interrupt shame cycles, retrain the brain toward hope, and steward pain without glorifying it. This episode is an invitation to tell ourselves a truer story—about who God is, who we are, and what might still be possible.
We explore:
— Why catastrophizing feels responsible but quietly fuels anxiety
— How the brain learns fear faster than hope
— The difference between feelings that are real and thoughts that are true
— Why shame often drives both anxiety and addictive behaviors
— How performance and control masquerade as faith
— What miscarriage and unresolved grief revealed about Nicole’s inner life
— Why hope is not denial, but courage
— Practical ways to retrain anxious thought patterns
— How naming internal experiences leads to healing
— What it looks like to tell a truer story about God and ourselves
Website: https://www.nicolezasowski.com
Books: What It's Wonderful? and Daring Joy
Follow Nicole on Instagram: @nicolezasowski
Follow Jon: @jonseidl
Order Jon's new book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic.
Get daily motivation: www.theveritasdaily.com
Support the Show: https://www.jonseidl.com/
Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian
Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is
your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.
In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,
the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But it's also a place of hope and healing.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became
an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today I've found
sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,
I found Jesus.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
My prayer is.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
That as I interview people just like you and just
like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma,
faith and addiction recovery, you will find the piece that
is available to you through Christ on the other side
of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be.
Because let's face it, we're all addicted to something so welcome,
(01:20):
let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks
like to be on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll
be right back after this. How do you answer this question,
what's the worst that could happen. And see, I think
a lot of people they ask that question in order
(01:42):
to get someone else to maybe think of the good. Right,
But if you're like me, when someone asks what's the
worst that could happen? My mind goes to bad and
really bad because I am a catastrophizer, and I tend
(02:03):
to think about all the worst things that could happen.
In my first book, Finding Rest, I call it the
tyranny of the what if?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
What if this? What if that? What if this? What
if that?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I think for a lot of my life that dominated.
I would say over the last ten years that has
gotten a lot better, but still in my weakness, if
you will, I catastrophize. And guys, I'm just going to
be really honest with you. I'm going through something right
(02:37):
now where I am catastrophizing a lot.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
See.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I will hopefully reveal to you very soon what comes
next for me.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And I think it's.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Going to require a lot of sacrifice, more sacrifice than
I thought it's going to be. I think, great, I
know it's what God has called me to do. But
yet there is a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot
of risk, and my mind, especially over the last twenty
four hours has gone to a lot of places that
(03:11):
what if this doesn't work out, what if I make
a fool of myself, what if I'm not hearing the Lord?
Just all those tyranny of the what ifs. But I'm
reminded that there's another question that we should be asking ourselves,
and that I need to be asking myself. And it's
the question that today's guest, Nicole Zezowski, is asking. In fact,
(03:35):
she's written an entire book around this one question. And
here's the question. Now, what if it's bad, what if
it's wonderful? That is the title of her book. And
I could not be more excited to talk with her,
because the truth is, I need this conversation. I need
(03:56):
this conversation today. I need it in this season, and
I wonder if you do too. Because even though we're
at the end of the year and we start wrapping things,
wrapping things up, and we start looking forward to the
next year and we're making, you know, new Year's resolutions,
I think the truth for a lot of people is
that this is a time that can be really scary.
It's a time that stretches us financially. It's a time
(04:16):
that stretches, stretches us mentally and emotionally with family and whatnot,
and I know that that's where I'm at, and so
I am so excited to talk with Nicole today about
not what if It's awful, but what if it's wonderful? So,
(04:36):
without further ado, let's talk to Nicole Sayzowski. Nicole, thank
you so much for joining the Confessions of a Christian
Alcoholic podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
This is a real treat.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
We're talking online before we started recording that I've appreciated.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I haven't even gotten fully through your book, but the parts.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That I've read so far, I've so appreciated that I'm
we're going to finish it, but it's also going to
be a resource that I'm gonna point people to because
I just think it's so good. So thank you for
joining the podcast.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Oh I'm honored to be here and excited for this conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So the book, what if It's Wonderful?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I think one of the things, and we'll just kind
of jump into this in a second, but one of
the things that I think is important is I know
that as I was in the throes of my addiction,
that the catastrophizing, the the not being able to see
what the other side looked like. Sure kept me kept
(05:35):
me stuck. But before we get into that, you kind
of have and you outline some of this story in
the beginning parts of the book, but obviously you're not
an addict, but you went through a lot of pain,
especially as it relates to children, and so just kind
of give us a brief overview of that story, and
then kind of what led you to writing what If
(05:56):
It's Wonderful?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (05:59):
What if It's wonderful? You know, people see the title
and confetti on the cover and they assume I had
a lot to say about joy and celebration, when really
that book was born much more out of a season
that could be largely characterized by change and loss. There
were lots of changes and losses embedded in that season,
(06:20):
but I would say it started with a sudden and
painful move across the country. I was very comfortable in
our old home in California and our old community, and
we moved pretty quickly for my husband's job, and that
actually revealed a lot of addictions of the heart for me,
(06:42):
in terms of my need for approval, my performance orientation,
my personhood, and my performance had become very fused. And
so when I moved to a place where no one
knew me, I had to start over. Nobody cared about
what I had accomplished elsewhere. I really had to confront
(07:05):
a lot of things in my own heart. And that
was the best and worst thing that ever happened to me.
It was really really good to be stripped of those
entitlements and comforts, because when you're left empty handed, as
you know, you're able to receive Christ in places that
you were tempted to replace him. And then, you know,
(07:27):
shortly after we got here, we wanted to We're on
the East coast now, and we wanted to grow our family.
And I assumed, you know, as somebody who was used
to if I work hard at something, I can make
it happen. I assumed that this would be an easy
process for me naively, and we discovered a medical diagnosis
(07:52):
in that journey that basically means every time I get
pregnant I have less than a fifty percent chance of
getting to meet that baby this day of heaven. And
how that actually played out in our story, I'm very,
very very thankful to have my three children. How that
played out initially was was five miscarriages, and we had
(08:16):
one of our children in the midst of those five,
but just a lot of loss knowing about this medical diagnosis.
You know, our joy was accompanied by a lot of
fear every time I got pregnant and we were celebrating
the hope of that and the anticipation of meeting this
child that God had created, you know, there was always
(08:42):
the other side of that, which is what if we
don't And so coming out of that, what I realized,
even though when we started encountering some good news and
some breakthrough in our story, I realized I was hesitant
to embrace it because of that practiced protection of cynicism
(09:05):
and pessimism that often accompanied my joy. And I was
really grieved. You know, nothing happened that made me come
to this realization, but I woke up one morning and realized, Yeah,
I've experienced a lot of loss in my story, but
a lot of the loss I've experienced to spend my
refusal to embrace the very good things that are right
(09:27):
in front of me. And I thought, I don't want
to miss out on my beautiful, God given life because
I am so busy preparing for the worst. And so
I did a deep dive into scripture. I did a
deep dive into neuroscience research as a therapist. I'm fascinated
with how God made our brain. I think we're just
(09:48):
discovering what scripture has told us for since, and science
is just catching up to scripture. But I'm fascinated by
how God designed our brains. And I wanted to know,
how can I do this differently? How can I actually
(10:08):
practice joy outside of circumstance. How can I retrain my
brain toward hope so that I'm not asking all the
other kind of what if questions? What if I fail?
What if I'm disappointed, what if I grieve? What if
hope leads me to devastation? And that's where what if
(10:29):
It's wonderful became my catchphrase to sort of pivot my
mind and open me up toward hope, and it became
the title of the book. So that's the backstory.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
So that leads a great segue into one of the
questions I wanted to ask you. You're talking about hope, right,
and I think, you know, there's probably a lot of
people listening to this, either they know what it's like
to not have hope or they just don't have hope
right now? Right there was I tried to quit drinking
(11:01):
so many times, right and you know, i'd quit for
a little bit and I just go right back and
and I just kind of resigned, like this is who
I am.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Like not in the sense of like I'm.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Just gonna you know, God may be this way and
I just want to it, but it was just like,
I don't I don't have hope. And I was talking
to someone the other day, and I don't disparage them
for saying this, but I've heard it from a couple
of people where they're like, well, hope is not a strategy.
And I know they have good intentions, but it just
always bothers me when I hear that. And so I
(11:33):
guess my question to you is, how do we how
do we grasp that hope? How do we turn that
into something practical? Can help be a strategy if you
will talk about the importance of hope.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
My favorite scripture that talks about this is in Lamentations
and what I which is you know ironic right there
that it's a book that has a lot of a
lament outlined in detail, and it's Lamentations three and the
author is very honest about the despair, the grief. As
(12:12):
you were mentioning, you know, saying some of those similar
lines that you just said. And then there's this point
in the passage where the tone completely shifts, and the
shift doesn't come from a change in circumstance, The shift
doesn't come from even a change in emotional experience. The
(12:33):
shift comes from But this I call to mind, and
therefore I have hope and the unfortunate. I don't like
this about the brain, but it is. The reality is
we can think and act our way to a new feeling.
We cannot feel our way to a new way of
(12:56):
thinking and acting. And I bump up against this as
a therapist all the time that we want to we
want our feelings to change, and then we want the
actions to come out of those feelings, when unfortunately, the
reality that we're dealing with neurologically is we've got to
(13:16):
claim a different message for ourselves. Because God does give
us a choice. He gives us a choice as to
whether or not we're going to continue to agree with
the lie or whether we're going to carry the truth
into the future. And then how are we going to
practice that truth? For me? You know I often ask myself,
what does a person who knows she's valuable do? And
(13:39):
then I do that thing. I may not, you know,
I mentioned that I struggle with a performance identity, and
a lot of that comes with a deep sense of
inadequacy a lot. And yet I know I have a
choice of whether I tell myself that message or whether
I tell myself a different message and choose to act
(14:02):
on that. So this is not a fake it till
you make it situation, but there is. We do have
an empowered choice, and a lot of people they'll push
back on me and say, well, I just you know,
our culture values authenticity and being genuine, and I just don't.
I don't. I know that's true, but I don't feel it,
(14:22):
and I really want to encourage everyone listening. That's okay,
of course you don't feel it, because the brain prefers
what it knows, not necessarily what is good or true,
And we're empowered to make a choice as to what
message we continue to tell our brain and what, you know,
(14:43):
what message will become familiar. So I mean that to
be empowering and encouraging that we actually have a lot
more agency over hope than we tend to believe.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You mentioned something there that I think is another great segue,
and that is you write in the book that I
think the quote is there's a difference between feelings being
real and feelings being true. Yeah, and I love that
unpacked that for us.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah? And this is very related to what I just shared,
But I you know, we all have stories that form
the kind of wounds we feel when we're in pain.
So you and I could go through the exact same
situation tomorrow and I might feel inadequate or not good enough,
(15:41):
and you might feel, for example, alone or powerless. Even
though the circumstance is exactly the same. We're gonna feel
it where our previous wounds are. And so I always
give the analogy if I have a broken arm and
you have a broken leg, we both take the same fall.
(16:02):
I'm going to feel it in my arm and you're
gonna feel it in your leg because that's where our
previous injuries are. And so we all have good reasons
for feeling the way we do when we encounter something
painful and we are empowered to make a choice. You know,
pretty much mid adolescence we start becoming the main informers
(16:27):
of the message that our brain about our identity and
sensive safety. So in early childhood, you know, you and
I both have young kids, parents are huge in informing
their parents or their children's identity and sensive safety. By
about mid adolescens, parents are still important, but the we
(16:51):
become the main informants when it comes to our identity
and sensive safety. And so we have a choice as
to whether or not that painful message, that feeling of
not being good enough, or that feeling of being powerless
or alone, or whatever messages you picked up in childhood,
(17:12):
is that the message we're going to choose to pick
up and carry moving forward, or can we speak truth
to that, because we all have good reasons for feeling
those things, but we get to decide if that's the
truth that we're really going to claim for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It's funny you say that, because I think as I
look back at my own story, and I think one
of the hardest things that friends and family members had
an understanding when I when I finally came out and
talked about my alcoholism was.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I started talking about the traumas.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
That I experienced, and and they're like, so, wait, you're
drinking away like these things that happened to Yes, No,
but what happened is you start the traumas inform and
it lies and and and beliefs about yourself that you
care with you your whole life. And I'm like, I'm
trying to drink away those lies. I'm trying to drink
(18:08):
away those beliefs, right, So so it's it's it's a
plus b you know what I mean, like and and
and as I look back at my own story, absolutely
I can pinpoint almost exactly when I started playing those
soundtracks in my head as as an adolescent, right, and
those things, right, those those words, those beliefs started coming.
(18:31):
And maybe I didn't drink start drinking them away till
you know, fifteen years later, you know, yeah, but I did, right,
So I think that's that's that's such an interesting thing
to that that that you pointed out. You you talk
about in the book that about about shame, right, And
(18:51):
I have a whole chapter in my book about shame
as well. And I think, you know, shame is so
big when we're stuck in addiction. I even used my
rudimentary canvas skills to draw a shame cycle Okay, so
proud of myself.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Fred, I don't have those skills.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So yeah, yeah, my wife taught me good. And so
you talk about when it comes to shame, that it's
really hard to hear those good voices, right that you
believe those lives. Talk about like, how do we and
maybe this goes to what you were just saying, but
how do we train ourselves to listen to the good
(19:32):
voices and not the shame voices?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah? So the model I practice in my therapy practice
is called restoration therapy. And as a restoration therapist, we
would say that there's four main ways that we tend
to cope or react to our primary emotions. So primary
emotions are going to be either about who you are
(19:58):
or your sense of say in the world, in your security.
And then we tend to react in one, two, three,
or all four four ways blaming other people, shaming ourselves, controlling,
and escaping. Uh you mentioned that.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Escaping.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Hey, Yeah, So shame and escape are good friends. They
they tend to go together and and there tends to
be a pendulum swing there. And I do want to
point out, uh that often we talk about shame is
a feeling, but it is something more of something we do.
It's a way of uh, it's a posture towards yourself.
(20:43):
So if you think of your little kid self standing
in front of you and your adult self kind of
shaking a finger, it's it's saying to yourself, uh, stuff
that you would never say out loud someone else. And
when that becomes too unbearable and too painful, we swing
(21:05):
and go into that escape mode. Or that's a very
common second behavior to numb those horrible feelings because like
you're saying, the the it's the beliefs and the underlying
emotions that are so unbearable. And then when we come
out of that numbing escape mode, we feel we beat
(21:31):
ourselves up and we swing back into the shame. So
that's why those two tend to go together. But yeah,
it's a posture toward yourself. It's saying some it's saying
what you would never say to someone else out loud.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And so what can we do? Do you feel like,
is it? Is it repeating those things to ourselves that
we know are true. How do you counsel people on
interrupting those shame cycles?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, so again this is restoration therapy related. We have
something called the four steps, and I know you have
sface similar and it's not rocket science. It's naming that
primary emotion. So again, those are gonna either be something
about who you are or something about your sense of safety.
(22:23):
Naming how you tend to react, so it's calling out
how you typically react. That's not helpful. And by the way,
none of us like these things about ourselves, like this
is not none of proud of our step two. But
that's that blame, shame, control, escape, And obviously there's a
lot of specific behaviors in each of those four buckets.
(22:47):
It's naming the truth about that feeling. So that is
a very real feeling, and I might have really good
reasons for feeling that way, But is that the message
I'm gonna choose to claim moving forward? And then once
we have that truth identified, how can I practice that truth?
(23:08):
What does it look like right now? What is the
next right thing to do to practice that truth?
Speaker 4 (23:15):
So?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
If I typically blame, what does it look like to
nurture the others? And right now, if I typically shame,
what does it look like to be self valuing? To
value myself? Right now? If I'd typically a controller, what
does it look like to collaborate and have a balance
of give and take in my reships. And if I'm
(23:38):
typically an escaper, what does it look like to stay
reliably connected and see this through, whether that's to my
own emotional experience or in relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So one of the other things I think when it
comes to to shame that you say, you have this
line in the book that I that absolutely love. You know,
when I think about my story, when I think about
the stories of people that I've talked to that are similar,
is we have to understand.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Grace, grace ourselves, grace from Jesus.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And yet you have this this quote and you say,
shame prevents us from celebrating grace. Can you explain that
and unpack that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Sure, So, when we make a decision to shame ourselves,
we are essentially committing to being our own savior, and
we are therefore rejecting the gift of grace and the
saving grace that Jesus freely gives because we are committed
to earning our way with our own goodness. You know,
(24:51):
a common line that you'll hear people say is I
know I'm forgiven, but I can't forgive myself. Well, that's
a very shaming statement to ourselves, and that's a refusal
to receive the gift that that Jesus has given us.
And because again he gives us a choice, he doesn't
shove that gift into our hands, he doesn't force us
(25:14):
to enjoy it. And it's essentially committing to try to
save ourselves with our own goodness when we are committed
to making the choice to shame ourselves.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One other thing on shame, you talked about the four
fig leaves that.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
We love to say that Yeah, so you know, I
mentioned the four ways that we tend to react to
our pain, and you see what I love is that.
Well I don't love it because it's it's painful, but
you see all of those behaviors right from the very beginning.
(25:54):
So Adam and Eve, you know, there's a lot of
blame going on in that story when pain and the world.
She did it. The serpent made me do it. And
then there's obviously shame when they recognize, oh, we're naked
and they try to cover themselves for the first time,
there's escape, they run away, they hide from God, whereas
(26:18):
before that was a very intimate relationship with God where
they felt fully themselves before him. And then there's you know, control,
and how can we we see that really early on
when they make the decision to disobey God in the
garden of Eden, where I'm going to be my own God.
(26:39):
I'm not going to be surrendered and submitted to God.
I'm going to trust my own joy over the joy
that he offers. And so we see all four of
those things right from the beginning, and so it shouldn't
be a surprise to us that those are the four
things that we tend to employ to cover ourselves when
(27:01):
we're experiencing any kind of emotional pain.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So in my own book, I talk about the difference
between Judas and Peter and talking about the difference between
you know, godly godly grief and worldly worldly guilt. And
I read something in your book that I literally had
to then Luckily, as we're recording this, I'm in I'm
submitting final edits. I literally had to go back in
my book and I had to include this because you
(27:28):
that you had an insight here that I thought was
so good. And you talk about after the Resurrection, Jesus
appears to the fisherman and Peter and they're they're at
that they're at the sea Galilee, and Peter does something
that I never noticed until you pointed out. And you know,
(27:52):
Peter denied Jesus three times, like you talk about the shame,
and and I.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Had said, you know, we know that Peter.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Dealt with his his shame in a healthy way because
he went on to be Peter right like he went
on to But there's actually a better explanation. And you
point out the story. What explain what Peter does with
his shame after seeing the resurrect of Christ.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Yes, he runs to Jesus. And I love this juxtaposition
to what to Adam and Eve, like we were just
talking about, because in the Garden of Eden, when Adam
and Eve sin and they're hiding and they're covering themselves,
Jesus God's question to them is not how could you?
(28:38):
His question to them is where are you? He pursues them,
and so Peter recognizes this, he runs toward Christ. He's
not shaming himself. He's an open recipient of Jesus's grace
and he is all about receiving that. And I think
(28:58):
that that's that's the difference between condemnation and conviction too.
Rite conviction has this turning toward Christ where we will
be redeemed and transformed. And and shame is is the
voice of the accuser and one of condemnation. And that
is not what the voice of Christ sounds like in
(29:21):
our lives.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh yeah, it's so so good, you know, Like, and
I literally had this mind's eye, you know, I'm playing this,
and I think that, Yeah, as I was looking at
the es V the way that it talks about, you know,
I mean, just this picture of Peter. I mean, that's
the first time you encountered Christ since he denied them,
you know what I mean. And and he sees Jesus
(29:45):
and whereas Judas goes away, right, and it leads to death, Ye,
Peter runs toward and it leads to life. And them's
Peter being Peter.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, you uh, I want to switch gears for a
minute here. I think you talk about your own propensity
to catastrophize. And if there's one thing, if there's a
there's a an adjective to describe some of my own thinking.
(30:16):
I've used that one a lot, right, is that I
you know, I joke in my first book that like
my anxiety my OCD. I'm one of the only people
who can get like a cut on my finger and
within three hours I have cancer.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know what I mean. It's just like, it's just
like and so.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
But you talk about I guess I never saw this
catastrophizing as as a coping mechanism, and that was a
really helpful insight to mean, And I think it could
be for people listening talk about catastrophizing as a coping mechanism.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Yeah. So it's a fancy form of control in that
we are trying to become invulnerable to surprise or a
bad outcome by getting ahead of it and anticipating the
worst case scenario. So a related form would be just pessimism,
(31:15):
holding a lack of hope for the future. Catastrophizing probably
takes that a step further and really throws gasoline on
the worst case scenario. Cynicism is a similar but related,
different but related coping mechanism where we hold we doubt
other people's motives and hold a lack of belief in
(31:38):
other people, including God. But it's basically your brain trying
to prepare you for the worst case scenario, thinking that
it will take the sting out of that outcome should
it happen. But here's the reality, and our research is
pretty clear on this. Even if, and that's a big if,
(32:00):
even if that worst case scenario should happen, having anticipate
in it and prepared for it actually doesn't lessen the
pain of that outcome if it should come to happen.
So what you will do is dull all the delight
in the meantime, rob yourself of the hope and joy
(32:22):
as you prepare, you know, as you in the present moment,
and you will rob yourself of all of those good
things because you're anticipating the worst case scenario and you
won't protect yourself at all. So that that was a
good wake up call for me. Because controllers, I'll raise
(32:46):
my hand here. We tend to think that we're being
responsible and prudent. And you know, a lot of people
call themselves realists. I'm not a pessimist. I'm just a realist. No,
you're not. You're trying to anticipate and become invulnerable to
those unexpected and hard outcomes and instead of waiting with
(33:11):
hope to see what might God do.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
So I want to turn that then to addiction, right
because I think and I know I'd mentioned this earlier,
but you know, there's a lot of catastrophizing that I
think goes on in our minds when we're like trying
to imagine what life is like without alcohol. I'm not
going to be able to do this. It's going to
look like this, it's going to be this. I'm going
to be this way, and actually i'd be better. I'm
(33:36):
better drinking because otherwise I'm going to do this as
as as as a result of that. So I think,
specifically when it comes to addiction, how do we how
do we take that catastrophizing and put it to bed.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Hmm, well, I think being able to speak truth to
whatever the underlying feeling is. So anytime you see something
in those four categories blame, shame, control, escape, those things
do not happen in a vacuum. They are always rooted
(34:16):
in pain, but they're often the thing we're gonna see first,
because if you think about an iceberg, it's the part
of the iceberg that's above the waterline, So that's okay.
It takes a while to recognize those primary emotions when
they're happening before those reactions show up. But being able
(34:37):
to say ah, what am I feeling? I must be
feeling something about myself or about my circumstances. So am
I fearing failure? Am I feeling vulnerable because I haven't
done life sober? And you know, and that feels really scary?
(34:58):
And then being able to to that feeling. And that's
important because if we don't know what the specific pain
we're experiencing is, we might be speaking very true words,
but they're not targeting the pain we're experiencing. So, for instance,
if I am feeling powerless or hopeless about the future,
(35:25):
and I tell myself that I am deeply loved and valued,
well it is true, I'm deeply loved and valued, but
it's not speaking to the pain that's driving the catastrophizing
around life without drinking or whatever you're catastrophizing about. So
making being able to name the pain that's driving that
(35:48):
catastrophizing is really important because we got to make sure
we're speaking to the right the right thing.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So you said something there, You said a word there
that I want hone in on and and use it
to unpack another topic you can talk about. You talked
about maybe a fear of vulnerability. You know, one of
my four steps. I talk about radical vulnerability, which which
is really just true confession. Right, it's true confession that's
about It's not it's not just you know, giving a
(36:19):
little bit like well, you know, I'm struggling with this.
It's like, no, here's what I'm doing, right, And and
so you have this, you have this quote in the book.
You say, confession and apology feel scary when you've told
yourself you're only as good as your last performance. But
there was no other way through the other side for
this friendship. And you're talking about this this story, this
(36:41):
very I mean, I felt secondhand embarrassment for you in
this in this story, So maybe tell you know, you
could tell a quick version of that story and then
the power that you found in in in confession and
radical vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah. So, so the quick backstory here and you can
read more details in the book if you're curious. But
I was really struggling with one of my friends and
I sent a text while I was at her house
(37:19):
to another friend like please pray for me. I am
really struggling in this friendship and it's hard to be
here right now. And I accidentally sent it to the
friend whose house I was out O bad. So I
had no choice but to confess.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
There was no unsnd back, there no unsend.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, man, did I did? I wish there was. But
it also forced me to have what I should have
done in the first place, and brought it to her
and confessed how I was feeling. But I'll so you
know now I was confessing being gossiping and and not
(38:06):
bringing it to her and finding it easier to talk
to someone else about it. And gossip is false intimacy, falseility.
It's a way of feeling close to someone without actually
having it cost you anything.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Interesting I've never heard. That's a great little nugget.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah, it's it's it's pretty. And once you start to
see it that way, you'll see a lot of how
we're all just attempting, making an attempt at intimacy without
actually having it.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
So good.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, so I fully participated in that. And you know,
when you are used to so my thing is I
can try with performance. That's how I tend to protect
myself from that feeling of inadequacy, like I explained earlier,
And when performance is your thing, your value and your
(39:14):
identity is only as good as your last performance, and
so confession is scary because you're owning, Oh, I messed up.
This was a huge crack in the facade I work
really hard on every day when I'm feeling that inadequacy.
(39:36):
And so in that moment, basically I was cracked open
and discovered it. Actually, confession and being able to own
my imperfection was very freeing and obviously in a situation
where I've done something wrong, you know, also having that
(39:58):
accompanied by I'm going to commit to doing this differently
and here's where I need to grow. Vulnerability about what
we're doing wrong is just the first step to you know,
repent and turn away from the way that we tend
(40:18):
to do things. So it was a healing and freeing moment,
but I wish I had gotten there a different way,
and I.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Think that's important for you know, I know there's probably
some people listening to this who you're You're more driven
by performance than some other people, right, and so you
know you're listening to this and you're the person who
no one knows you have a problem. And for a
long time that was me, right, you know, no one
knows you're hiding it so freaking well. Yeah, and so
(40:48):
the idea of confession and vulnerability for them is maybe
even more scary than the person who's like, yeah, I'm
just out loud and about it and everyone knows it, right,
And so what is your encouragement to that person like yourself?
You know, what have you then come to experience, not
(41:10):
just in that situation, but what can you tell that
person who does struggle with that performance about what's on
the other side of that confession and vulnerability?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Oh so much freedom? See, you know that that is
the beginning of being able to you know, let God
into the feelings you actually have, instead of feeling like
you have to have the perfect feelings for God and
letting him love you where you are and loving you
too much to let you stay there. But yeah, performance
(41:42):
just keeps you stuck, just like anything we do in
that blame, shame, control, escape framework. And that's another good
point I was, or an important point to bring up
when we talk about blame, shame, control and escape. For
a long time, I was secretly out of my reactivity
because I thought, isn't everyone just so grateful for my
(42:05):
wonderful performance and my desire to win them over and
my high expectations of myself and isn't that so much better?
So so franchious of me? But isn't that so much
better than you know, somebody who rages in their pain.
And certainly those four things have different consequences, different behaviors
(42:32):
in each of those four categories. The consequences are different physically, However,
all four of those things are equally relationally destructive. What
I do when I perform is no better in it
equally destroys my connection with myself, God and other people.
(42:55):
Just like someone who rages in their pain or someone
who numbs out in their pain, they're all for equally
relationally destructive. So I just want to point that out
because our culture really tends to celebrate, especially controllers, that perfectionism,
those performers, the people who seemingly have it all together,
(43:19):
very often very high achievers. And anything we do in
our pain is destructive. There's no better menu option there.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
That's that's such a great reminder. I appreciate you pointing
that out, and I think it comes on the heels
of there's there's something else you pointed out that was
really convicting to me in in the book, and and
I have to be careful about this, uh Now, that
I'm on the other side of of of you know,
the depths of my struggle, and that is being careful
(43:53):
to appreciate the pain, but not in a sense like.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Celebrate it.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
And you know so you have the science says I
will never call the pain itself good. God is not
the author of our suffering, and I don't believe he
asks us to see it that way. Life doesn't have
to be hard to be holy. But I've learned to
let pain mold me into something new. And then you say,
my place of brokenness has become my place of place
of restoration. How do we appreciate the pain without ascribing
(44:30):
it to God?
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Like now, I have to be careful and make clear
like God allows our pain and suffering, he doesn't cause it.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Right, So how do we how do we how do
we strike that right balance? I think, well, in a
couple different ways. I think being able to appreciate how
God has used it. He doesn't waste it, but there's
(44:59):
a respe responsibility to be a good steward of our pain.
That's a phrase I've really been honing in on a
lot recently, because I think it swings between it's the
third option and two cultural extremes that we tend to
(45:19):
swing between when it comes to our emotions.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
One is sort of the mind over matter. Feelings don't
matter at all, Just tell me what to do and
do it well. We missed out on a lot of understanding, compassion, connection,
and information when we just ignore our emotional experience. Our
(45:45):
emotional world absolutely needs to have a seat at the table,
but on the other extreme, it cannot dictate the dinner conversation.
Is what I often say, like, it needs a seat
at the table, but it's not going to dominate the conversation.
And that's where I feel like we are a little
bit culturally today. If I feel something, it is the
(46:07):
most real thing about me is where you have the
you know, a lot of my truth instead of truth,
or a lot of destructive entitlement is born out of
this place that I have this feeling, and I have
good reasons for feeling it. So therefore whatever I do
out of this place is justified. Yes, And that's just
(46:30):
destructive entitlement. That is not stewarting our feelings well. So
stewarting them well is being able to name them, know
call out. How we tend to protect ourselves from them
or react to them and say, Okay, is that the
message I am going to carry forward? Or is the
(46:50):
truth the message I'm going to carry forward? And then
how can I act on that? So being honest about
our feelings but also recognizing that just like we need
to be a good steward of our time, talent, and treasure,
we got to be a good steward of this feeling.
And they're not our faults. We have good reasons for
(47:10):
feeling the things we do, but they are our responsibility.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
If you've brought up something I mean, throughout this entire
time together that I think is important. You know that
the naming aspect, right, and so you know, uh, we've
had Allison Cook on this podcast and about that especially yes, yes,
and you know the numbing versus naming and in her book,
(47:39):
I shouldn't feel this way and I love that, and
so it's such a good reminder and I just think
it's it's helpful to hear it, you know from someone else, right,
that that that the naming is so important. And I
talked about in in my first book Finding Rest that
like naming something gives you power over it.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, you know and.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
We see that from from Judeo Christian you know, values
right like you give you you know, we were told
to name the animals right right, and and that showed
a dominion over them. And so when we name what's
going on, uh, we we gain power over something. I
just think is really important to call that out that
you've been talking about that and I think that's that's
(48:20):
that's really great. The last thing, the last question I
want to ask you is you've talked about how your heartbreak,
your pain, has given you a different relationship with God.
You say that there's an intimacy between the two of
us that's been forged from heartache. And I think there
are a lot of people who even you know, even
(48:43):
even though I've gotten through the kind of the throes
of my addiction and and I'm in a great place, like,
there are still times, you know, where I sit there
and be like, oh, I wish I didn't have to
go through that, you know, or or or even sometimes
you know, I'll be honest, I'll look at so I'll
look at someone having a director back. I wish I
could be that guy, Like I wish I could have
(49:04):
a healthy relationship with alcohol and yet I remind I
look at what has come of this, and I say,
I just my relationship with the Lord would not be
what it is without this, like it has thrown. You know,
there's the quote from Charles Spurgeon, like I've learned to
kiss the waves that are against the.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Rock of ages.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
Yes, one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yes, So I would love to hear you kind of
unpack and describe what has your heartache, you know that quote.
There's an intimacy between the two of us that's been
forged from heartache. Can you just can you unpack what
you've learned from your pain?
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Sure? And this is bringing us full circle, I think
going through that season of the sudden move and all
those miscarriages and other heartaches we experienced in that season.
You know, of course, it's not the story I would
have written for myself had God given me the pent.
(50:05):
And I can see where it absolutely was the thing
that pulled my fingers off of entitlements and comforts, like
my own performance, like my own perfectionism, like the approval
of others, the need to prove my identity and value
(50:30):
through different opportunities or accolades. And you know, I would
love to say that I would have let go of
those things on my own and recognize the freedom and
Christ is the better way. But I can't say that
(50:52):
I think that pain. Confronting that pain really shine, you know,
shone a light shine to light on what Augustine would
call disordered loves. You know, very good things in my heart,
(51:14):
you know gifts. No one would fault me for wanting
or loving. But we're standing awkwardly in the wrong position
in my heart. And when you confront pain, you're going
to feel the disorganized loves in your soul because that
you will discover that they have promised a lot more
(51:35):
than they can deliver on when life gets hard. They
do not bring the peace and joy that only Christ
can give. And so that's what that hard season gave me.
It reorganized what I love, and it allowed me to
receive Christ into places where I was adding to him.
(51:58):
I've always, I've always, I've been a believer since I
was a young girl. I've had a relationship with Jesus
my whole life, and yet those were the things I
tended to add to Christ for my value and safety,
and they just fell off when I encountered that pain.
(52:19):
And I'm really grateful because Christ is a lot better
in that position than any of those other gifts.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
What a great way to end our time together because
I think not surprisingly, you know, I talk about in confessions,
misordered is disordered?
Speaker 3 (52:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (52:43):
And then you know, so you can go through the
medical definition, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
I quote I have that quote from Augustine in the
book is that when we put anything above Jesus, it
is disordered, right, and so that that is miss you know,
misordered is disordered, And so I love that you drew
that out absolutely absolutely. If people, Nicole want to go
(53:12):
grab your book, if they want to invite you to speak,
if they want to you know, I know at one
point you were doing some retreats. But if they just
want to keep up with you and what you're doing,
where should they go?
Speaker 3 (53:23):
Sure, So my website is a great place to find
me Nicole Zizowski dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
I'll include the link and I C O L E
Z A.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
S O W s k I dot com. I hang
out on Instagram the most with social media. I'm just
at Nicole Zazowski there. I do have a new Bible
study that continues the conversation in what if It's Wonderful,
which is the book we've been talking about and that
Bible Studies called Daring Joy, and it explores the stories
(53:57):
of six women in the Bible who each child and
just in a different aspect of joy and again continues
the conversation in what if It's Wonderful, which is mostly
what John and I have been talking about today.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Well, Nicole, I really appreciate what if It's Wonderful. I
appreciate the work that you are doing. Like I said,
I'm going to be including what If It's Wonderful as
a resource for people who want to go deeper in
the topics that I bring up in confessions. So thank
you so much for your time. Thank you for what
(54:29):
you're doing. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
I so appreciate being here. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
We can think and act our way to a new feeling.
We cannot feel our way to a new way of
thinking and acting. Oh my goodness, Like I needed that, guys,
I needed that, did you?
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Because here is the truth.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I can find myself and have found myself stuck in
some cycles, some thought cycles, especially lately, and boy, I
here's the thing. Like it is true that you are
feeling a certain way. Right, It does not mean that
those feelings align with truth. And I think we forget
(55:12):
that even subconsciously, right, because I think sometimes we get defensive, like,
what do you mean, Yeah, I'm feeling that way. You know,
I heard my wife say something. I heard my spouse
or my husband say something. Yes, I'm feeling that way. Yeah,
it is true you are feeling that way. But it
does not mean that those feelings are aligned with truth.
(55:32):
If your spouse did not intend to hurt you, you
can still be hurt, but it doesn't mean that it aligns.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
With the truth of the intent. And I think we
just we need to remember that.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
And so when Nicole talks about thinking and acting our
way to new feelings, we have to embrace. That reminds
me my friend, doctor Lee Warren is coming out with
a book on something he called self brain surgery. He's
gonna be talking about this in the spring. Is gonna
be coming on this podcast to talk about it as well.
But the idea is that we can perform self brain surgery,
(56:05):
and it's what science is doing to catch up to scripture.
It's the renewing of our mind. And so I think
what Nicole talked about there. What doctor Lee Warren is
going to be talking about coming up on the podcast
in a couple months is going to be so important.
If you needed that today, let me know. You can
go to Christian Alcoholic dot com Christian Alcoholic dot com.
(56:27):
In there you can do a variety of things, you
can fail at a form and let me know what
you think. Listen, even though we just passed one hundred
thousand dollars downloads, I still read all the messages you
send me. I think I respond to most of them,
and if I haven't, it's just been gross oversight or
I should say accidental oversight on my part, not intentional.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
And so let me know what you think about this episode.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
You can also at Christian Alcoholic dot com purchase the
book Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic still thirty percent off
through the publisher, and there's also.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
Some bonuses you can get there.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
You can see I'm speaking, you can request for me
to speak, and real quickly, just let me say this,
like I have the opportunity to speak at an event
this week, and it is it just reminded me how
much life that I get personally, and I think when
we're walking in our purpose and calling. We get life
(57:19):
from things, and so I just want to let you
know that if you go on my website and you
fill out a form to request that I come speak,
don't think that that is a you know, tens of
thousand dollars endeavor, right, I make things work for you,
(57:40):
and so I work with all types of budgets. You
can just ask people where I've spoken about that. So
if you want me to come speak to your church,
your small group, you know, your conference, your whatever, just
go to Christian Alcoholic dot com and there on the
on the web site you will find a place to
(58:01):
request me to come speak. And I would love to
do that because it's what the what's what God has
called me to do. It's what the Lord has told
me to do. And I get a lot of life
in meeting you and talking with you. So please go
do that. Once again, thank you to our partner Life
audio dot com. We would not have surpassed one hundred
thousand downloads without Life Audio, who has believed in this
podcast from the beginning. So go check out their other podcasts.
(58:24):
We will have a podcast next week even though it
is Christmas Eve, and so I just want to let
you know that I have plenty of stuff ready to go,
and the truth is that we still need the Gospel.
We still need these truths that we talk about on
this podcast at Christmas time, and especially at Christmas times,
because I think it can be lonely. I think it
can be emotionally draining. There can be issues with family,
(58:46):
issues with budgets that just make us feel like I've
been feeling right, which is why I needed this conversation
with the goal.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
So love you all. We will see you next week.
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian
Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is
your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.
In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,
the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But it's also a place of hope and healing.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became
an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today I've found
sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,
I found Jesus.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
My prayer is.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
That as I interview people just like you and just
like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma,
faith and addiction recovery, you will find the piece that
is available to you through Christ on the other side
of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be.
Because let's face it, we're all addicted to something so welcome,
(01:20):
let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks
like to be on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll
be right back after this. How do you answer this question,
what's the worst that could happen. And see, I think
a lot of people they ask that question in order
(01:42):
to get someone else to maybe think of the good. Right,
But if you're like me, when someone asks what's the
worst that could happen? My mind goes to bad and
really bad because I am a catastrophizer, and I tend
(02:03):
to think about all the worst things that could happen.
In my first book, Finding Rest, I call it the
tyranny of the what if?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
What if this? What if that? What if this? What
if that?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I think for a lot of my life that dominated.
I would say over the last ten years that has
gotten a lot better, but still in my weakness, if
you will, I catastrophize. And guys, I'm just going to
be really honest with you. I'm going through something right
(02:37):
now where I am catastrophizing a lot.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
See.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I will hopefully reveal to you very soon what comes
next for me.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And I think it's.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Going to require a lot of sacrifice, more sacrifice than
I thought it's going to be. I think, great, I
know it's what God has called me to do. But
yet there is a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot
of risk, and my mind, especially over the last twenty
four hours has gone to a lot of places that
(03:11):
what if this doesn't work out, what if I make
a fool of myself, what if I'm not hearing the Lord?
Just all those tyranny of the what ifs. But I'm
reminded that there's another question that we should be asking ourselves,
and that I need to be asking myself. And it's
the question that today's guest, Nicole Zezowski, is asking. In fact,
(03:35):
she's written an entire book around this one question. And
here's the question. Now, what if it's bad, what if
it's wonderful? That is the title of her book. And
I could not be more excited to talk with her,
because the truth is, I need this conversation. I need
(03:56):
this conversation today. I need it in this season, and
I wonder if you do too. Because even though we're
at the end of the year and we start wrapping things,
wrapping things up, and we start looking forward to the
next year and we're making, you know, new Year's resolutions,
I think the truth for a lot of people is
that this is a time that can be really scary.
It's a time that stretches us financially. It's a time
(04:16):
that stretches, stretches us mentally and emotionally with family and whatnot,
and I know that that's where I'm at, and so
I am so excited to talk with Nicole today about
not what if It's awful, but what if it's wonderful? So,
(04:36):
without further ado, let's talk to Nicole Sayzowski. Nicole, thank
you so much for joining the Confessions of a Christian
Alcoholic podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
This is a real treat.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
We're talking online before we started recording that I've appreciated.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I haven't even gotten fully through your book, but the parts.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That I've read so far, I've so appreciated that I'm
we're going to finish it, but it's also going to
be a resource that I'm gonna point people to because
I just think it's so good. So thank you for
joining the podcast.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Oh I'm honored to be here and excited for this conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So the book, what if It's Wonderful?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I think one of the things, and we'll just kind
of jump into this in a second, but one of
the things that I think is important is I know
that as I was in the throes of my addiction,
that the catastrophizing, the the not being able to see
what the other side looked like. Sure kept me kept
(05:35):
me stuck. But before we get into that, you kind
of have and you outline some of this story in
the beginning parts of the book, but obviously you're not
an addict, but you went through a lot of pain,
especially as it relates to children, and so just kind
of give us a brief overview of that story, and
then kind of what led you to writing what If
(05:56):
It's Wonderful?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (05:59):
What if It's wonderful? You know, people see the title
and confetti on the cover and they assume I had
a lot to say about joy and celebration, when really
that book was born much more out of a season
that could be largely characterized by change and loss. There
were lots of changes and losses embedded in that season,
(06:20):
but I would say it started with a sudden and
painful move across the country. I was very comfortable in
our old home in California and our old community, and
we moved pretty quickly for my husband's job, and that
actually revealed a lot of addictions of the heart for me,
(06:42):
in terms of my need for approval, my performance orientation,
my personhood, and my performance had become very fused. And
so when I moved to a place where no one
knew me, I had to start over. Nobody cared about
what I had accomplished elsewhere. I really had to confront
(07:05):
a lot of things in my own heart. And that
was the best and worst thing that ever happened to me.
It was really really good to be stripped of those
entitlements and comforts, because when you're left empty handed, as
you know, you're able to receive Christ in places that
you were tempted to replace him. And then, you know,
(07:27):
shortly after we got here, we wanted to We're on
the East coast now, and we wanted to grow our family.
And I assumed, you know, as somebody who was used
to if I work hard at something, I can make
it happen. I assumed that this would be an easy
process for me naively, and we discovered a medical diagnosis
(07:52):
in that journey that basically means every time I get
pregnant I have less than a fifty percent chance of
getting to meet that baby this day of heaven. And
how that actually played out in our story, I'm very,
very very thankful to have my three children. How that
played out initially was was five miscarriages, and we had
(08:16):
one of our children in the midst of those five,
but just a lot of loss knowing about this medical diagnosis.
You know, our joy was accompanied by a lot of
fear every time I got pregnant and we were celebrating
the hope of that and the anticipation of meeting this
child that God had created, you know, there was always
(08:42):
the other side of that, which is what if we
don't And so coming out of that, what I realized,
even though when we started encountering some good news and
some breakthrough in our story, I realized I was hesitant
to embrace it because of that practiced protection of cynicism
(09:05):
and pessimism that often accompanied my joy. And I was
really grieved. You know, nothing happened that made me come
to this realization, but I woke up one morning and realized, Yeah,
I've experienced a lot of loss in my story, but
a lot of the loss I've experienced to spend my
refusal to embrace the very good things that are right
(09:27):
in front of me. And I thought, I don't want
to miss out on my beautiful, God given life because
I am so busy preparing for the worst. And so
I did a deep dive into scripture. I did a
deep dive into neuroscience research as a therapist. I'm fascinated
with how God made our brain. I think we're just
(09:48):
discovering what scripture has told us for since, and science
is just catching up to scripture. But I'm fascinated by
how God designed our brains. And I wanted to know,
how can I do this differently? How can I actually
(10:08):
practice joy outside of circumstance. How can I retrain my
brain toward hope so that I'm not asking all the
other kind of what if questions? What if I fail?
What if I'm disappointed, what if I grieve? What if
hope leads me to devastation? And that's where what if
(10:29):
It's wonderful became my catchphrase to sort of pivot my
mind and open me up toward hope, and it became
the title of the book. So that's the backstory.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
So that leads a great segue into one of the
questions I wanted to ask you. You're talking about hope, right,
and I think, you know, there's probably a lot of
people listening to this, either they know what it's like
to not have hope or they just don't have hope
right now? Right there was I tried to quit drinking
(11:01):
so many times, right and you know, i'd quit for
a little bit and I just go right back and
and I just kind of resigned, like this is who
I am.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Like not in the sense of like I'm.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Just gonna you know, God may be this way and
I just want to it, but it was just like,
I don't I don't have hope. And I was talking
to someone the other day, and I don't disparage them
for saying this, but I've heard it from a couple
of people where they're like, well, hope is not a strategy.
And I know they have good intentions, but it just
always bothers me when I hear that. And so I
(11:33):
guess my question to you is, how do we how
do we grasp that hope? How do we turn that
into something practical? Can help be a strategy if you
will talk about the importance of hope.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
My favorite scripture that talks about this is in Lamentations
and what I which is you know ironic right there
that it's a book that has a lot of a
lament outlined in detail, and it's Lamentations three and the
author is very honest about the despair, the grief. As
(12:12):
you were mentioning, you know, saying some of those similar
lines that you just said. And then there's this point
in the passage where the tone completely shifts, and the
shift doesn't come from a change in circumstance, The shift
doesn't come from even a change in emotional experience. The
(12:33):
shift comes from But this I call to mind, and
therefore I have hope and the unfortunate. I don't like
this about the brain, but it is. The reality is
we can think and act our way to a new feeling.
We cannot feel our way to a new way of
(12:56):
thinking and acting. And I bump up against this as
a therapist all the time that we want to we
want our feelings to change, and then we want the
actions to come out of those feelings, when unfortunately, the
reality that we're dealing with neurologically is we've got to
(13:16):
claim a different message for ourselves. Because God does give
us a choice. He gives us a choice as to
whether or not we're going to continue to agree with
the lie or whether we're going to carry the truth
into the future. And then how are we going to
practice that truth? For me? You know I often ask myself,
what does a person who knows she's valuable do? And
(13:39):
then I do that thing. I may not, you know,
I mentioned that I struggle with a performance identity, and
a lot of that comes with a deep sense of
inadequacy a lot. And yet I know I have a
choice of whether I tell myself that message or whether
I tell myself a different message and choose to act
(14:02):
on that. So this is not a fake it till
you make it situation, but there is. We do have
an empowered choice, and a lot of people they'll push
back on me and say, well, I just you know,
our culture values authenticity and being genuine, and I just don't.
I don't. I know that's true, but I don't feel it,
(14:22):
and I really want to encourage everyone listening. That's okay,
of course you don't feel it, because the brain prefers
what it knows, not necessarily what is good or true,
And we're empowered to make a choice as to what
message we continue to tell our brain and what, you know,
(14:43):
what message will become familiar. So I mean that to
be empowering and encouraging that we actually have a lot
more agency over hope than we tend to believe.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You mentioned something there that I think is another great segue,
and that is you write in the book that I
think the quote is there's a difference between feelings being
real and feelings being true. Yeah, and I love that
unpacked that for us.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah? And this is very related to what I just shared,
But I you know, we all have stories that form
the kind of wounds we feel when we're in pain.
So you and I could go through the exact same
situation tomorrow and I might feel inadequate or not good enough,
(15:41):
and you might feel, for example, alone or powerless. Even
though the circumstance is exactly the same. We're gonna feel
it where our previous wounds are. And so I always
give the analogy if I have a broken arm and
you have a broken leg, we both take the same fall.
(16:02):
I'm going to feel it in my arm and you're
gonna feel it in your leg because that's where our
previous injuries are. And so we all have good reasons
for feeling the way we do when we encounter something
painful and we are empowered to make a choice. You know,
pretty much mid adolescence we start becoming the main informers
(16:27):
of the message that our brain about our identity and
sensive safety. So in early childhood, you know, you and
I both have young kids, parents are huge in informing
their parents or their children's identity and sensive safety. By
about mid adolescens, parents are still important, but the we
(16:51):
become the main informants when it comes to our identity
and sensive safety. And so we have a choice as
to whether or not that painful message, that feeling of
not being good enough, or that feeling of being powerless
or alone, or whatever messages you picked up in childhood,
(17:12):
is that the message we're going to choose to pick
up and carry moving forward, or can we speak truth
to that, because we all have good reasons for feeling
those things, but we get to decide if that's the
truth that we're really going to claim for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
It's funny you say that, because I think as I
look back at my own story, and I think one
of the hardest things that friends and family members had
an understanding when I when I finally came out and
talked about my alcoholism was.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I started talking about the traumas.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
That I experienced, and and they're like, so, wait, you're
drinking away like these things that happened to Yes, No,
but what happened is you start the traumas inform and
it lies and and and beliefs about yourself that you
care with you your whole life. And I'm like, I'm
trying to drink away those lies. I'm trying to drink
(18:08):
away those beliefs, right, So so it's it's it's a
plus b you know what I mean, like and and
and as I look back at my own story, absolutely
I can pinpoint almost exactly when I started playing those
soundtracks in my head as as an adolescent, right, and
those things, right, those those words, those beliefs started coming.
(18:31):
And maybe I didn't drink start drinking them away till
you know, fifteen years later, you know, yeah, but I did, right,
So I think that's that's that's such an interesting thing
to that that that you pointed out. You you talk
about in the book that about about shame, right, And
(18:51):
I have a whole chapter in my book about shame
as well. And I think, you know, shame is so
big when we're stuck in addiction. I even used my
rudimentary canvas skills to draw a shame cycle Okay, so
proud of myself.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Fred, I don't have those skills.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So yeah, yeah, my wife taught me good. And so
you talk about when it comes to shame, that it's
really hard to hear those good voices, right that you
believe those lives. Talk about like, how do we and
maybe this goes to what you were just saying, but
how do we train ourselves to listen to the good
(19:32):
voices and not the shame voices?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah? So the model I practice in my therapy practice
is called restoration therapy. And as a restoration therapist, we
would say that there's four main ways that we tend
to cope or react to our primary emotions. So primary
emotions are going to be either about who you are
(19:58):
or your sense of say in the world, in your security.
And then we tend to react in one, two, three,
or all four four ways blaming other people, shaming ourselves, controlling,
and escaping. Uh you mentioned that.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Escaping.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Hey, Yeah, So shame and escape are good friends. They
they tend to go together and and there tends to
be a pendulum swing there. And I do want to
point out, uh that often we talk about shame is
a feeling, but it is something more of something we do.
It's a way of uh, it's a posture towards yourself.
(20:43):
So if you think of your little kid self standing
in front of you and your adult self kind of
shaking a finger, it's it's saying to yourself, uh, stuff
that you would never say out loud someone else. And
when that becomes too unbearable and too painful, we swing
(21:05):
and go into that escape mode. Or that's a very
common second behavior to numb those horrible feelings because like
you're saying, the the it's the beliefs and the underlying
emotions that are so unbearable. And then when we come
out of that numbing escape mode, we feel we beat
(21:31):
ourselves up and we swing back into the shame. So
that's why those two tend to go together. But yeah,
it's a posture toward yourself. It's saying some it's saying
what you would never say to someone else out loud.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And so what can we do? Do you feel like,
is it? Is it repeating those things to ourselves that
we know are true. How do you counsel people on
interrupting those shame cycles?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, so again this is restoration therapy related. We have
something called the four steps, and I know you have
sface similar and it's not rocket science. It's naming that
primary emotion. So again, those are gonna either be something
about who you are or something about your sense of safety.
(22:23):
Naming how you tend to react, so it's calling out
how you typically react. That's not helpful. And by the way,
none of us like these things about ourselves, like this
is not none of proud of our step two. But
that's that blame, shame, control, escape, And obviously there's a
lot of specific behaviors in each of those four buckets.
(22:47):
It's naming the truth about that feeling. So that is
a very real feeling, and I might have really good
reasons for feeling that way, But is that the message
I'm gonna choose to claim moving forward? And then once
we have that truth identified, how can I practice that truth?
(23:08):
What does it look like right now? What is the
next right thing to do to practice that truth?
Speaker 4 (23:15):
So?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
If I typically blame, what does it look like to
nurture the others? And right now, if I typically shame,
what does it look like to be self valuing? To
value myself? Right now? If I'd typically a controller, what
does it look like to collaborate and have a balance
of give and take in my reships. And if I'm
(23:38):
typically an escaper, what does it look like to stay
reliably connected and see this through, whether that's to my
own emotional experience or in relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So one of the other things I think when it
comes to to shame that you say, you have this
line in the book that I that absolutely love. You know,
when I think about my story, when I think about
the stories of people that I've talked to that are similar,
is we have to understand.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Grace, grace ourselves, grace from Jesus.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And yet you have this this quote and you say,
shame prevents us from celebrating grace. Can you explain that
and unpack that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Sure, So, when we make a decision to shame ourselves,
we are essentially committing to being our own savior, and
we are therefore rejecting the gift of grace and the
saving grace that Jesus freely gives because we are committed
to earning our way with our own goodness. You know,
(24:51):
a common line that you'll hear people say is I
know I'm forgiven, but I can't forgive myself. Well, that's
a very shaming statement to ourselves, and that's a refusal
to receive the gift that that Jesus has given us.
And because again he gives us a choice, he doesn't
shove that gift into our hands, he doesn't force us
(25:14):
to enjoy it. And it's essentially committing to try to
save ourselves with our own goodness when we are committed
to making the choice to shame ourselves.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One other thing on shame, you talked about the four
fig leaves that.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
We love to say that Yeah, so you know, I
mentioned the four ways that we tend to react to
our pain, and you see what I love is that.
Well I don't love it because it's it's painful, but
you see all of those behaviors right from the very beginning.
(25:54):
So Adam and Eve, you know, there's a lot of
blame going on in that story when pain and the world.
She did it. The serpent made me do it. And
then there's obviously shame when they recognize, oh, we're naked
and they try to cover themselves for the first time,
there's escape, they run away, they hide from God, whereas
(26:18):
before that was a very intimate relationship with God where
they felt fully themselves before him. And then there's you know, control,
and how can we we see that really early on
when they make the decision to disobey God in the
garden of Eden, where I'm going to be my own God.
(26:39):
I'm not going to be surrendered and submitted to God.
I'm going to trust my own joy over the joy
that he offers. And so we see all four of
those things right from the beginning, and so it shouldn't
be a surprise to us that those are the four
things that we tend to employ to cover ourselves when
(27:01):
we're experiencing any kind of emotional pain.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So in my own book, I talk about the difference
between Judas and Peter and talking about the difference between
you know, godly godly grief and worldly worldly guilt. And
I read something in your book that I literally had
to then Luckily, as we're recording this, I'm in I'm
submitting final edits. I literally had to go back in
my book and I had to include this because you
(27:28):
that you had an insight here that I thought was
so good. And you talk about after the Resurrection, Jesus
appears to the fisherman and Peter and they're they're at
that they're at the sea Galilee, and Peter does something
that I never noticed until you pointed out. And you know,
(27:52):
Peter denied Jesus three times, like you talk about the shame,
and and I.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Had said, you know, we know that Peter.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Dealt with his his shame in a healthy way because
he went on to be Peter right like he went
on to But there's actually a better explanation. And you
point out the story. What explain what Peter does with
his shame after seeing the resurrect of Christ.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Yes, he runs to Jesus. And I love this juxtaposition
to what to Adam and Eve, like we were just
talking about, because in the Garden of Eden, when Adam
and Eve sin and they're hiding and they're covering themselves,
Jesus God's question to them is not how could you?
(28:38):
His question to them is where are you? He pursues them,
and so Peter recognizes this, he runs toward Christ. He's
not shaming himself. He's an open recipient of Jesus's grace
and he is all about receiving that. And I think
(28:58):
that that's that's the difference between condemnation and conviction too.
Rite conviction has this turning toward Christ where we will
be redeemed and transformed. And and shame is is the
voice of the accuser and one of condemnation. And that
is not what the voice of Christ sounds like in
(29:21):
our lives.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh yeah, it's so so good, you know, Like, and
I literally had this mind's eye, you know, I'm playing this,
and I think that, Yeah, as I was looking at
the es V the way that it talks about, you know,
I mean, just this picture of Peter. I mean, that's
the first time you encountered Christ since he denied them,
you know what I mean. And and he sees Jesus
(29:45):
and whereas Judas goes away, right, and it leads to death, Ye,
Peter runs toward and it leads to life. And them's
Peter being Peter.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, you uh, I want to switch gears for a
minute here. I think you talk about your own propensity
to catastrophize. And if there's one thing, if there's a
there's a an adjective to describe some of my own thinking.
(30:16):
I've used that one a lot, right, is that I
you know, I joke in my first book that like
my anxiety my OCD. I'm one of the only people
who can get like a cut on my finger and
within three hours I have cancer.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know what I mean. It's just like, it's just
like and so.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
But you talk about I guess I never saw this
catastrophizing as as a coping mechanism, and that was a
really helpful insight to mean, And I think it could
be for people listening talk about catastrophizing as a coping mechanism.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Yeah. So it's a fancy form of control in that
we are trying to become invulnerable to surprise or a
bad outcome by getting ahead of it and anticipating the
worst case scenario. So a related form would be just pessimism,
(31:15):
holding a lack of hope for the future. Catastrophizing probably
takes that a step further and really throws gasoline on
the worst case scenario. Cynicism is a similar but related,
different but related coping mechanism where we hold we doubt
other people's motives and hold a lack of belief in
(31:38):
other people, including God. But it's basically your brain trying
to prepare you for the worst case scenario, thinking that
it will take the sting out of that outcome should
it happen. But here's the reality, and our research is
pretty clear on this. Even if, and that's a big if,
(32:00):
even if that worst case scenario should happen, having anticipate
in it and prepared for it actually doesn't lessen the
pain of that outcome if it should come to happen.
So what you will do is dull all the delight
in the meantime, rob yourself of the hope and joy
(32:22):
as you prepare, you know, as you in the present moment,
and you will rob yourself of all of those good
things because you're anticipating the worst case scenario and you
won't protect yourself at all. So that that was a
good wake up call for me. Because controllers, I'll raise
(32:46):
my hand here. We tend to think that we're being
responsible and prudent. And you know, a lot of people
call themselves realists. I'm not a pessimist. I'm just a realist. No,
you're not. You're trying to anticipate and become invulnerable to
those unexpected and hard outcomes and instead of waiting with
(33:11):
hope to see what might God do.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
So I want to turn that then to addiction, right
because I think and I know I'd mentioned this earlier,
but you know, there's a lot of catastrophizing that I
think goes on in our minds when we're like trying
to imagine what life is like without alcohol. I'm not
going to be able to do this. It's going to
look like this, it's going to be this. I'm going
to be this way, and actually i'd be better. I'm
(33:36):
better drinking because otherwise I'm going to do this as
as as as a result of that. So I think,
specifically when it comes to addiction, how do we how
do we take that catastrophizing and put it to bed.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Hmm, well, I think being able to speak truth to
whatever the underlying feeling is. So anytime you see something
in those four categories blame, shame, control, escape, those things
do not happen in a vacuum. They are always rooted
(34:16):
in pain, but they're often the thing we're gonna see first,
because if you think about an iceberg, it's the part
of the iceberg that's above the waterline, So that's okay.
It takes a while to recognize those primary emotions when
they're happening before those reactions show up. But being able
(34:37):
to say ah, what am I feeling? I must be
feeling something about myself or about my circumstances. So am
I fearing failure? Am I feeling vulnerable because I haven't
done life sober? And you know, and that feels really scary?
(34:58):
And then being able to to that feeling. And that's
important because if we don't know what the specific pain
we're experiencing is, we might be speaking very true words,
but they're not targeting the pain we're experiencing. So, for instance,
if I am feeling powerless or hopeless about the future,
(35:25):
and I tell myself that I am deeply loved and valued,
well it is true, I'm deeply loved and valued, but
it's not speaking to the pain that's driving the catastrophizing
around life without drinking or whatever you're catastrophizing about. So
making being able to name the pain that's driving that
(35:48):
catastrophizing is really important because we got to make sure
we're speaking to the right the right thing.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So you said something there, You said a word there
that I want hone in on and and use it
to unpack another topic you can talk about. You talked
about maybe a fear of vulnerability. You know, one of
my four steps. I talk about radical vulnerability, which which
is really just true confession. Right, it's true confession that's
about It's not it's not just you know, giving a
(36:19):
little bit like well, you know, I'm struggling with this.
It's like, no, here's what I'm doing, right, And and
so you have this, you have this quote in the book.
You say, confession and apology feel scary when you've told
yourself you're only as good as your last performance. But
there was no other way through the other side for
this friendship. And you're talking about this this story, this
(36:41):
very I mean, I felt secondhand embarrassment for you in
this in this story, So maybe tell you know, you
could tell a quick version of that story and then
the power that you found in in in confession and
radical vulnerability.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah. So, so the quick backstory here and you can
read more details in the book if you're curious. But
I was really struggling with one of my friends and
I sent a text while I was at her house
(37:19):
to another friend like please pray for me. I am
really struggling in this friendship and it's hard to be
here right now. And I accidentally sent it to the
friend whose house I was out O bad. So I
had no choice but to confess.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
There was no unsnd back, there no unsend.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, man, did I did? I wish there was. But
it also forced me to have what I should have
done in the first place, and brought it to her
and confessed how I was feeling. But I'll so you
know now I was confessing being gossiping and and not
(38:06):
bringing it to her and finding it easier to talk
to someone else about it. And gossip is false intimacy, falseility.
It's a way of feeling close to someone without actually
having it cost you anything.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Interesting I've never heard. That's a great little nugget.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah, it's it's it's pretty. And once you start to
see it that way, you'll see a lot of how
we're all just attempting, making an attempt at intimacy without
actually having it.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
So good.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, so I fully participated in that. And you know,
when you are used to so my thing is I
can try with performance. That's how I tend to protect
myself from that feeling of inadequacy, like I explained earlier,
And when performance is your thing, your value and your
(39:14):
identity is only as good as your last performance, and
so confession is scary because you're owning, Oh, I messed up.
This was a huge crack in the facade I work
really hard on every day when I'm feeling that inadequacy.
(39:36):
And so in that moment, basically I was cracked open
and discovered it. Actually, confession and being able to own
my imperfection was very freeing and obviously in a situation
where I've done something wrong, you know, also having that
(39:58):
accompanied by I'm going to commit to doing this differently
and here's where I need to grow. Vulnerability about what
we're doing wrong is just the first step to you know,
repent and turn away from the way that we tend
(40:18):
to do things. So it was a healing and freeing moment,
but I wish I had gotten there a different way,
and I.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Think that's important for you know, I know there's probably
some people listening to this who you're You're more driven
by performance than some other people, right, and so you
know you're listening to this and you're the person who
no one knows you have a problem. And for a
long time that was me, right, you know, no one
knows you're hiding it so freaking well. Yeah, and so
(40:48):
the idea of confession and vulnerability for them is maybe
even more scary than the person who's like, yeah, I'm
just out loud and about it and everyone knows it, right,
And so what is your encouragement to that person like yourself?
You know, what have you then come to experience, not
(41:10):
just in that situation, but what can you tell that
person who does struggle with that performance about what's on
the other side of that confession and vulnerability?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Oh so much freedom? See, you know that that is
the beginning of being able to you know, let God
into the feelings you actually have, instead of feeling like
you have to have the perfect feelings for God and
letting him love you where you are and loving you
too much to let you stay there. But yeah, performance
(41:42):
just keeps you stuck, just like anything we do in
that blame, shame, control, escape framework. And that's another good
point I was, or an important point to bring up
when we talk about blame, shame, control and escape. For
a long time, I was secretly out of my reactivity
because I thought, isn't everyone just so grateful for my
(42:05):
wonderful performance and my desire to win them over and
my high expectations of myself and isn't that so much better?
So so franchious of me? But isn't that so much
better than you know, somebody who rages in their pain.
And certainly those four things have different consequences, different behaviors
(42:32):
in each of those four categories. The consequences are different physically, However,
all four of those things are equally relationally destructive. What
I do when I perform is no better in it
equally destroys my connection with myself, God and other people.
(42:55):
Just like someone who rages in their pain or someone
who numbs out in their pain, they're all for equally
relationally destructive. So I just want to point that out
because our culture really tends to celebrate, especially controllers, that perfectionism,
those performers, the people who seemingly have it all together,
(43:19):
very often very high achievers. And anything we do in
our pain is destructive. There's no better menu option there.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
That's that's such a great reminder. I appreciate you pointing
that out, and I think it comes on the heels
of there's there's something else you pointed out that was
really convicting to me in in the book, and and
I have to be careful about this, uh Now, that
I'm on the other side of of of you know,
the depths of my struggle, and that is being careful
(43:53):
to appreciate the pain, but not in a sense like.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Celebrate it.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
And you know so you have the science says I
will never call the pain itself good. God is not
the author of our suffering, and I don't believe he
asks us to see it that way. Life doesn't have
to be hard to be holy. But I've learned to
let pain mold me into something new. And then you say,
my place of brokenness has become my place of place
of restoration. How do we appreciate the pain without ascribing
(44:30):
it to God?
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Like now, I have to be careful and make clear
like God allows our pain and suffering, he doesn't cause it.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Right, So how do we how do we how do
we strike that right balance? I think, well, in a
couple different ways. I think being able to appreciate how
God has used it. He doesn't waste it, but there's
(44:59):
a respe responsibility to be a good steward of our pain.
That's a phrase I've really been honing in on a
lot recently, because I think it swings between it's the
third option and two cultural extremes that we tend to
(45:19):
swing between when it comes to our emotions.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
One is sort of the mind over matter. Feelings don't
matter at all, Just tell me what to do and
do it well. We missed out on a lot of understanding, compassion, connection,
and information when we just ignore our emotional experience. Our
(45:45):
emotional world absolutely needs to have a seat at the table,
but on the other extreme, it cannot dictate the dinner conversation.
Is what I often say, like, it needs a seat
at the table, but it's not going to dominate the conversation.
And that's where I feel like we are a little
bit culturally today. If I feel something, it is the
(46:07):
most real thing about me is where you have the
you know, a lot of my truth instead of truth,
or a lot of destructive entitlement is born out of
this place that I have this feeling, and I have
good reasons for feeling it. So therefore whatever I do
out of this place is justified. Yes, And that's just
(46:30):
destructive entitlement. That is not stewarting our feelings well. So
stewarting them well is being able to name them, know
call out. How we tend to protect ourselves from them
or react to them and say, Okay, is that the
message I am going to carry forward? Or is the
(46:50):
truth the message I'm going to carry forward? And then
how can I act on that? So being honest about
our feelings but also recognizing that just like we need
to be a good steward of our time, talent, and treasure,
we got to be a good steward of this feeling.
And they're not our faults. We have good reasons for
(47:10):
feeling the things we do, but they are our responsibility.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
If you've brought up something I mean, throughout this entire
time together that I think is important. You know that
the naming aspect, right, and so you know, uh, we've
had Allison Cook on this podcast and about that especially yes, yes,
and you know the numbing versus naming and in her book,
(47:39):
I shouldn't feel this way and I love that, and
so it's such a good reminder and I just think
it's it's helpful to hear it, you know from someone else, right,
that that that the naming is so important. And I
talked about in in my first book Finding Rest that
like naming something gives you power over it.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, you know and.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
We see that from from Judeo Christian you know, values
right like you give you you know, we were told
to name the animals right right, and and that showed
a dominion over them. And so when we name what's
going on, uh, we we gain power over something. I
just think is really important to call that out that
you've been talking about that and I think that's that's
(48:20):
that's really great. The last thing, the last question I
want to ask you is you've talked about how your heartbreak,
your pain, has given you a different relationship with God.
You say that there's an intimacy between the two of
us that's been forged from heartache. And I think there
are a lot of people who even you know, even
(48:43):
even though I've gotten through the kind of the throes
of my addiction and and I'm in a great place, like,
there are still times, you know, where I sit there
and be like, oh, I wish I didn't have to
go through that, you know, or or or even sometimes
you know, I'll be honest, I'll look at so I'll
look at someone having a director back. I wish I
could be that guy, Like I wish I could have
(49:04):
a healthy relationship with alcohol and yet I remind I
look at what has come of this, and I say,
I just my relationship with the Lord would not be
what it is without this, like it has thrown. You know,
there's the quote from Charles Spurgeon, like I've learned to
kiss the waves that are against the.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Rock of ages.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
Yes, one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yes, So I would love to hear you kind of
unpack and describe what has your heartache, you know that quote.
There's an intimacy between the two of us that's been
forged from heartache. Can you just can you unpack what
you've learned from your pain?
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Sure? And this is bringing us full circle, I think
going through that season of the sudden move and all
those miscarriages and other heartaches we experienced in that season.
You know, of course, it's not the story I would
have written for myself had God given me the pent.
(50:05):
And I can see where it absolutely was the thing
that pulled my fingers off of entitlements and comforts, like
my own performance, like my own perfectionism, like the approval
of others, the need to prove my identity and value
(50:30):
through different opportunities or accolades. And you know, I would
love to say that I would have let go of
those things on my own and recognize the freedom and
Christ is the better way. But I can't say that
(50:52):
I think that pain. Confronting that pain really shine, you know,
shone a light shine to light on what Augustine would
call disordered loves. You know, very good things in my heart,
(51:14):
you know gifts. No one would fault me for wanting
or loving. But we're standing awkwardly in the wrong position
in my heart. And when you confront pain, you're going
to feel the disorganized loves in your soul because that
you will discover that they have promised a lot more
(51:35):
than they can deliver on when life gets hard. They
do not bring the peace and joy that only Christ
can give. And so that's what that hard season gave me.
It reorganized what I love, and it allowed me to
receive Christ into places where I was adding to him.
(51:58):
I've always, I've always, I've been a believer since I
was a young girl. I've had a relationship with Jesus
my whole life, and yet those were the things I
tended to add to Christ for my value and safety,
and they just fell off when I encountered that pain.
(52:19):
And I'm really grateful because Christ is a lot better
in that position than any of those other gifts.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
What a great way to end our time together because
I think not surprisingly, you know, I talk about in confessions,
misordered is disordered?
Speaker 3 (52:41):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (52:43):
And then you know, so you can go through the
medical definition, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
I quote I have that quote from Augustine in the
book is that when we put anything above Jesus, it
is disordered, right, and so that that is miss you know,
misordered is disordered, And so I love that you drew
that out absolutely absolutely. If people, Nicole want to go
(53:12):
grab your book, if they want to invite you to speak,
if they want to you know, I know at one
point you were doing some retreats. But if they just
want to keep up with you and what you're doing,
where should they go?
Speaker 3 (53:23):
Sure, So my website is a great place to find
me Nicole Zizowski dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
I'll include the link and I C O L E
Z A.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
S O W s k I dot com. I hang
out on Instagram the most with social media. I'm just
at Nicole Zazowski there. I do have a new Bible
study that continues the conversation in what if It's Wonderful,
which is the book we've been talking about and that
Bible Studies called Daring Joy, and it explores the stories
(53:57):
of six women in the Bible who each child and
just in a different aspect of joy and again continues
the conversation in what if It's Wonderful, which is mostly
what John and I have been talking about today.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Well, Nicole, I really appreciate what if It's Wonderful. I
appreciate the work that you are doing. Like I said,
I'm going to be including what If It's Wonderful as
a resource for people who want to go deeper in
the topics that I bring up in confessions. So thank
you so much for your time. Thank you for what
(54:29):
you're doing. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
I so appreciate being here. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
We can think and act our way to a new feeling.
We cannot feel our way to a new way of
thinking and acting. Oh my goodness, Like I needed that, guys,
I needed that, did you?
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Because here is the truth.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I can find myself and have found myself stuck in
some cycles, some thought cycles, especially lately, and boy, I
here's the thing. Like it is true that you are
feeling a certain way. Right, It does not mean that
those feelings align with truth. And I think we forget
(55:12):
that even subconsciously, right, because I think sometimes we get defensive, like,
what do you mean, Yeah, I'm feeling that way. You know,
I heard my wife say something. I heard my spouse
or my husband say something. Yes, I'm feeling that way. Yeah,
it is true you are feeling that way. But it
does not mean that those feelings are aligned with truth.
(55:32):
If your spouse did not intend to hurt you, you
can still be hurt, but it doesn't mean that it aligns.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
With the truth of the intent. And I think we
just we need to remember that.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
And so when Nicole talks about thinking and acting our
way to new feelings, we have to embrace. That reminds
me my friend, doctor Lee Warren is coming out with
a book on something he called self brain surgery. He's
gonna be talking about this in the spring. Is gonna
be coming on this podcast to talk about it as well.
But the idea is that we can perform self brain surgery,
(56:05):
and it's what science is doing to catch up to scripture.
It's the renewing of our mind. And so I think
what Nicole talked about there. What doctor Lee Warren is
going to be talking about coming up on the podcast
in a couple months is going to be so important.
If you needed that today, let me know. You can
go to Christian Alcoholic dot com Christian Alcoholic dot com.
(56:27):
In there you can do a variety of things, you
can fail at a form and let me know what
you think. Listen, even though we just passed one hundred
thousand dollars downloads, I still read all the messages you
send me. I think I respond to most of them,
and if I haven't, it's just been gross oversight or
I should say accidental oversight on my part, not intentional.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
And so let me know what you think about this episode.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
You can also at Christian Alcoholic dot com purchase the
book Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic still thirty percent off
through the publisher, and there's also.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
Some bonuses you can get there.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
You can see I'm speaking, you can request for me
to speak, and real quickly, just let me say this,
like I have the opportunity to speak at an event
this week, and it is it just reminded me how
much life that I get personally, and I think when
we're walking in our purpose and calling. We get life
(57:19):
from things, and so I just want to let you
know that if you go on my website and you
fill out a form to request that I come speak,
don't think that that is a you know, tens of
thousand dollars endeavor, right, I make things work for you,
(57:40):
and so I work with all types of budgets. You
can just ask people where I've spoken about that. So
if you want me to come speak to your church,
your small group, you know, your conference, your whatever, just
go to Christian Alcoholic dot com and there on the
on the web site you will find a place to
(58:01):
request me to come speak. And I would love to
do that because it's what the what's what God has
called me to do. It's what the Lord has told
me to do. And I get a lot of life
in meeting you and talking with you. So please go
do that. Once again, thank you to our partner Life
audio dot com. We would not have surpassed one hundred
thousand downloads without Life Audio, who has believed in this
podcast from the beginning. So go check out their other podcasts.
(58:24):
We will have a podcast next week even though it
is Christmas Eve, and so I just want to let
you know that I have plenty of stuff ready to go,
and the truth is that we still need the Gospel.
We still need these truths that we talk about on
this podcast at Christmas time, and especially at Christmas times,
because I think it can be lonely. I think it
can be emotionally draining. There can be issues with family,
(58:46):
issues with budgets that just make us feel like I've
been feeling right, which is why I needed this conversation
with the goal.
Speaker 1 (58:54):
So love you all. We will see you next week.
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