April 8, 2025 • 49 mins
Carli McConkey was a naive 21yr old seeking self-improvement when she was recruited into a new age cult where she spent over 13yrs trapped and enslaved. Carli bravely shares her experience of being manipulated, coerced, and abused, explaining the psychological tactics employed by cult leaders to maintain control.
After finally escaping, Carli’s struggles continued when she fought and won a defamation lawsuit brought upon her by her former cult leader. She also shares her frustration that her cult leader is currently a registered psychologist in Australia and the UK, despite regulatory bodies in both countries being made aware of the judges' rulings in this case.
Carli sheds light on the complexities of recovery from cult abuse. Through sharing her story, she educates us about the red flags of cults, and highlights the importance of professionals being equipped to support cult survivors in the aftermath of their experience.
For support and websites referenced in this episode:
Cult Information and Family Support (CIFS) Australia
Cult Education Institute (Rick Ross)
Connect with Carli
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
This is Crappy to Happy and Iam your host, Cass Dunn.
I'm a clinical and coachingpsychologist and mindfulness meditation
teacher and of course authorof the Crappy to Happy books.
In this show I bring youconversations with interesting, inspiring,
intelligent people who areexperts in their field and who have
(00:23):
something of value to sharethat will help you feel less crappy
and more happy.
Foreign.
Welcome back to Crafter Happy.
My guest this week is Carly McConkey.
Carly was your average 21 yearold, finished university, feeling
(00:48):
a little bit unsure of herdirection when she enrolled in a
personal development course,which ultimately ended up being the
pathway into a new agedoomsday cult.
She then went on to spend allof her 20s and half of her 30s trapped
and obviously spent many, manyyears afterwards recovering.
Carly was courageous enough towrite a book about her experience,
(01:11):
which ultimately led to herbeing sued for defamation by the
cult leader.
And again, Carly was braveenough to face her in court and to
win that defamation case.
I've been fascinated by thepsychology of cults.
Like what leads people to join cults?
Why do they stay?
How do they get involved for along time, which is why I was so
(01:32):
interested to speak to aperson who has actually had experience
and was willing to talk aboutwhat they went through.
The other reason I'm reallyfascinated by this topic is because
of the overlap that I see andthat obviously exists between the
psychology and the mindset ofcults and conspiracy theories and
the tribalism that exists inpolitics these days.
(01:54):
All of the us versus Them mentality.
I think that there is a lothere to be explored in more detail
because I think it's reallyeasy to sit back and to hear a story
like Carly's and to think,well, that would never be me.
I would never be that foolish.
I would never let myself getinto that situation.
Almost victim blaming, butalso othering.
Whereas I think if we stepoutside of the direct experience
(02:18):
and actually look at some ofthe reasons why this happens, our
common human need for, formeaning, for a sense of identity,
for a sense of belonging andpurpose, our cognitive biases, our
confirmation biases, thetribalism that we ourselves can get
into.
I just think there issomething in this for all of us.
For now, I'm just reallygrateful to Carly for her courage
(02:42):
and for her honesty in sharingher story with me.
There is so much more to thisstory that we didn't go into.
Let's hear Carly's story.
Carly McConkey, welcome to theCrappy to Happy podcast.
Thank you Cass.
Lovely to be here Carly, youspent over a decade, many years in
(03:02):
a cult experiencing somepretty harrowing abuse as we'll talk
about about in a minute.
I'm really curious to go backto the beginning to understand where
were you at in life generallyand in terms of your psychology,
you know, emotionally when youfirst encountered this organization.
Like what was your firstexperience of them?
(03:23):
I guess.
Well, I had finisheduniversity in about the November,
December of the year beforeand it was May of the following year,
so it wasn't even sort of six months.
And I had done communicationat uni, public relations and I'd
done internship and I justdidn't know whether PR was for me.
So I was very unsure about my direction.
(03:45):
I had left school and gone touniversity in country New South Wales
at Bathurst.
And so I'd been away from homefor three years coming back and yeah,
just very unsure about where Iwas at.
I, at that stage I was fairlysheltered and I hadn't had a boyfriend
yet.
So you know, I was just, I hada bit of low self esteem, to be honest.
(04:09):
And also at the end of myfirst year of uni I had quite a shock.
My mum told me that she hadadopted out a daughter as a baby
and that her daughter had comeback in contact with her.
And so I had a sister.
So that was a fairly traumaticexperience in hindsight because,
(04:30):
you know, just knowing thatI'd sort of been lied to all those
years, even though of courseit's not something that you would
talk about.
Yeah, just everything wasquite unsettled and I had a lot of
ambition and wanted to make adifference in the world.
I'd also been Catholic upuntil I was 19 and then I moved more
into sort of the spiritual newage and started investigating that
(04:53):
and reading a lot of books, et cetera.
And so I went to the Mind BodySpirit Festival in Sydney.
I went to have a psychic reading.
I'd had a couple before at uniand this particular psych reader
told me that to reach mypotential and have great relationships,
find my direction in life,etc, I should do this course called
(05:13):
the Next Evolutionary Step.
And she gave me a brochure anda tape and things like that and directed
me to a stand at the Mind BodySpirit Festival.
And when I went there, that'swhere I found out about this particular
course, which is really what Iknow now to be the recruitment process
that they went through at thattime doing psychic readings and healings
at the Mind Body Spirit Festival.
(05:35):
So, so I chatted with somepeople on the stand and they told
me that there was a free StageOne seminar at the Hilton Hotel which
sounded very legitimate andpromising in the June.
So I went to that and thenheard the woman who was very charismatic
at the front, who had designedthe programs, who ended up being
(05:56):
the cult leader.
She got people up who'd donethe program and they all gave testimonials,
et cetera, and.
And then straight away I justsigned up to do the first course
and that was in July.
So you were just out of uni.
You're like 2021.
That's just such a familiarkind of a story.
You know, I've been to theMind Body Spirit Festival in Sydney.
(06:16):
I've probably had a psychicreading there.
Yeah, but that's so relatable.
When you went to that firstintroductory session.
Yes.
And then you chose to go onand do one of their courses.
Yes.
You took your mom.
I did.
I actually took my mom and mysister, my half s, you know, they
wanted to come and support me.
(06:37):
You know, my mom actually saidat the time, just to make sure it's
not a cult.
Even though cults weren't verywell known back then.
I remember her actually saying that.
And we did the first programand that was at a university in Sydney
called Macquarie University.
So again, you know, supposedlyvery legitimate place.
It was a Thursday night,Friday night after work, it went
(06:58):
to like 11pm at night and thenyou had to be back on the weekend
on the Saturday and Sunday at9am so full day Saturday, full day
Sunday.
And then the Monday night wasthe graduation, as such.
And yeah, essentially whatcults do is they recruit you.
Right.
Coercively and deceptively.
So, you know, I thought that Iwas doing this self development program
(07:20):
that was a bit new age andthat would help me reach my potential.
But once you, once they getyou in, then they do what we call
mind control techniques.
So that whole sort of fivenight, two day course was all long
sessions where this woman upthe front, the designer of the programs,
(07:40):
would talk and lecture to usabout all wonderful things, doing,
you know, how to become psychic.
She spoke about crystals, shespoke about healing the planet.
We did a lot of meditation, weeven did chanting, we did dancing
every time we came in.
So you're in this really hyper mood.
We were put onto a vegan dietand juicing fresh fruit juice, about
(08:02):
a liter, I think it was every day.
There's also techniques calledlike sleep deprivation and sensory
deprivation.
So our sleep deprivation was,as I said, getting home.
And she gave us exercises thatwe had to do we had to listen to
her meditation tapes.
And then the next morning wehad to get up early and do lots of
the juicing and get our foodready and things like that.
(08:23):
So already your sleep is lacking.
At that point, the sensoryoverload was just.
So many things were happeningon that course.
We went through all these processes.
The biggest thing was what shetermed accessing.
She said that we had to clearour cellular memory from this lifetime,
our past lifetimes and ourancestors, so that we could make
(08:44):
a better world for ourchildren, that we would get our health
better and reach thatpotential that we were there to do.
We had about 80 people in the cause.
And to do accessing, you had,she brought out these big black mats
that were about 6 foot by 4foot, those big gymnastic mats, and
there was 80 people justbanging and yelling and screaming
and crying and all that sortof thing.
(09:06):
So it was really confrontingfor me.
And, yeah, there was one pointwhere, you know, I was huddled up
with my mum in a corner, andthen the charismatic leader who became
the cult leader said somethinglike, you know, why are you doing
that?
You need to takeresponsibility for yourself.
And already she was separatingme from my mum.
(09:26):
So, you know, in cultstructures, from the very beginning,
it's divide and conquer.
Separate you from your family,your friends, and just really hone
you on relying on that cultleader for everything.
You know, you no longer relyon yourself.
You look to them for all youranswers to everything.
(09:47):
Yeah, so there's a lot aboutthat that almost can sound valid,
some of those things.
But then there's all of thisother stuff interwoven.
Exactly.
And then what happened was atthe end of that course, because our
systems or our bodies and ourmind, emotions were just everywhere.
Like, we felt a lot lighterbecause we'd gone through all of
(10:08):
that sort of purging ofemotions and things like that.
We're at such a heightenedstage, but we also still had a lot
of fear and we still had thosesort of.
That feeling of sort ofheaviness as well.
And she said things like, toevolve, you need to continue to do
these programs and I can help you.
You know, I am the way.
And so that was the July, andthen I signed up for a course for
(10:29):
September, which was calledUniversal Healing, which was at her
property in northern New South Wales.
And that was a Friday nightand all weekend course, which I did.
I did that by myself.
Then I signed up to one in theOctober, which was only a month later
called the Final Step.
And that was where the realmind Control techniques were really
(10:50):
supplanted and just thoroughly.
The foundation was laidbecause in that one it was terrifying.
We met at a university in Brisbane.
The cult leader had said that,you know, you only do this course
once and you have to puteverything into it.
We weren't told anything aboutthe courses.
We were never told anythingabout the courses.
And you were told thatspecifically that you are not allowed
(11:12):
to tell anyone else whathappened on each course.
So we arrived there, the cultleader and all of her support team
were standing at the front.
They weren't smiling, theywere sort of yelling and screaming.
The cult leader was yelling,she was asking for our id, our wallets.
We couldn't, we had to handeverything over.
And eventually, after hoursand hours, what was probably about
five hours, we were put.
(11:33):
We were marched out in a lineonto a blackened out bus and we drove.
We had no watches, we didn'tknow what time it was.
We didn't know what was happening.
We drove on a bus allblackened out for hours and hours
and eventually we weren'tallowed to go to the toilet.
She said that we could only goto the toilet when she told us we
could.
So already that was terrifyingfor me.
(11:54):
And we ended up getting thereto this property which was in the
middle of nowhere.
We had no idea where we were.
Obviously mobile phones didn'texist then.
But yeah, we didn't have anyway to get home or contact anyone.
So we were there.
And then it was more lectures,more meditating, more chanting.
We only had somewhere up to 17hours sleep.
(12:16):
So we only had a couple ofhours sleep per night and we went
without food for 24 hours.
Lots of yelling at us.
She made us yell and scream ateach other, bring issues up with
each other.
And there was just a wholeheap of different stuff that really
solidified those mind control techniques.
And I really believe that evenfrom the first stage, one seminar,
(12:36):
I was already hooked and I wasalready indoctrinated.
But if you weren't by thatstage, the final step definitely
did that.
You talk, you talk aboutthings like making you stand on a
stage naked and talk aboutwhat you don't like about your body.
Have people tell you what theydon't like about your body.
These are the kinds ofhumiliation tactics.
Basically.
I just want people listeningto understand the kinds of things
(12:58):
that you were exposed to.
It wasn't just fooddeprivation and it wasn't just like
sleep deprivation.
There were these very personalattacks, humiliation.
So you can imagine a propertywhere all we see is some trees and
it's Sort of dirt all around us.
And they had tents set up.
There was two of us staying ina tent and we'd be listening to lectures
(13:20):
late into the night when itwas totally dark.
And then, you know, we don't.
We'd go to bed and we didn'tknow because we didn't have a watch.
But two hours later we'd bewoken up really suddenly and then
we had to get up and start itall over again.
We used to have to do this run.
And then after the run, yeah,we had to strip naked and had to
jump into this pond.
And we weren't allowed to getout of the pond until the cult leader
(13:41):
told us we were allowed to.
And the time would only startwhen the last person got in.
So all of us were just, youknow, peddling in this pond that
I believe had leeches and wecouldn't even see under it, it was
dark.
So that was terrifying.
And then, as I mentioned, wewere not allowed to go to the toilet
until she told us.
We had sort of five minutesand then there was only three portaloos
(14:03):
and 80 people had to go to thetoilet within, you know, a five minute
time.
Fr if you missed out, you hadto wait till the next one.
It was all about, yeah, fear, humiliation.
There was a process where,yeah, one night in the middle of
the night when it was dark, wewere in the big marquee and there
was a stage and first of allwe had our swimmers on.
(14:25):
And then she said that if youcan stand naked in front of people,
you can do anything, you know,and we all got up and did it one
after the other.
And yeah, it was complete humiliation.
I just remember sweating andfeeling horrible.
And you had people who werefrom about 17 years of age to like
80 years of age, men andwomen, boys and girls.
(14:46):
Yeah, we had to say what weliked about our body, what we didn't.
And then the people in theaudience could come in as well.
So, yeah, they're just a fewof the things that happened.
So.
And all of this you've beentold too, that you're not to discuss
with anybody.
So there's no talking to yourparents about this or no getting
anybody else's opinion aboutwhether this.
Yeah.
And I think then at the end you.
(15:07):
We were told to bring like aparty outfit as well, and that got
taken at the beginning.
And then right at the end,after you've been through this, you
know, seven nights and eightdays of hell, then the last night
is this big party.
And of course, you know,you're happy in this, that and the
other, and you're shell shocked.
You know, what the f justhappened to us.
But it's that kind of dualityas well, where you go through hell
(15:30):
and then you have this one bigparty for one night and then it's
like hell again.
And, and that's kind of whathappened through the whole process
of those years.
It was, you know, the cultleader might say one nice thing to
you, but then, you know,she'll say a hundred really horrible
things about you.
And it's always this uphillbattle and struggle to climb out
of where you've been.
And what was your kind ofmental state coming out the other
(15:54):
side of that?
Because you went back again, right?
So what, what, what, what'shappening for you out of the other
side of that?
Horrible.
I just think that I alwaysfelt like I had a lot of problems.
You know, I was always selfreflecting, trying to better myself.
You know, I was a bitoverweight back then and I knew I
(16:15):
wasn't perfect.
And I really had this internaldrive to keep going and evolve and
get to, you know, thisenlightened state.
And I felt better, but I stillfelt very heavy and I had a lot of
fear.
So I knew that I had to keep going.
And that just is what happenedthe whole way through.
You know, I never felt like Iwas on the other side.
(16:37):
And I think that's what thecult leader and cults do is there's
always, they're alwaysdangling this carrot to say, you
know, you're not there yet,you need to do more, go higher, higher,
higher with your involvement, etc.
That's what they do the whole time.
You know, they, they love bomb you.
You know, the cult leaderwould verbally sort of abuse us and
put us down, and then, youknow, she might lift you up once
(17:00):
and then put you down a numberof times.
And it's just that game.
And so you're never in a good place.
And she said that you need toaccess the heavy emotions before
you get to the lighter ones.
And, you know, we would justaccess the same thing over and over
again.
All these heavy emotions andobviously there was no light ones.
So, you know, it really was anongoing process.
(17:22):
What you just described soundsso similar to essentially being in
a relationship with anarcissistic abuser.
This constant erosion of yourself esteem and your sense of self
worth and then these likelittle, you know, crumbs of positive
reinforcement that you thenlatch onto and you become just almost
obsessed with getting more of that.
(17:43):
Positive reinforcement becauseyou're feeling so about yourself.
Absolutely.
And then the only person whocan make you feel better, like they're.
They've told you andindoctrinated you that they are.
Yes.
The way.
Yes.
And when we're educating aboutcults, we always talk about the one
on one relationship, which iswhen you're with a narcissist or
even a psychopath.
So yeah, it's exactly the same thing.
(18:03):
Coercive control, but on agrander scale, I guess, because,
you know, cults are always.
That the term cult, you know,people always either think that anyone
who's been in a cult is an idiot.
They got themselves in there,it's their fault.
But you can just look at it asa gang mentality or peer pressure
that you have that one on one.
But it's on a grander scaleand you've got not only the cult
(18:26):
leader that you have tocontend with, but you've got a whole
group of her supporters that,you know, if you put one foot wrong
then you're going to have thewhole of the group sick onto you
and not just one person.
So I was going to say.
Yeah, I'm not going to saywhat's worse, you know, one on one
is really horrible.
Horrible.
But then also the groupdynamic is.
Is horrible as well.
(18:46):
On a grander scale.
Yeah, I was actually going tomention that.
So with the one on one abuser.
Not that that's what we'rehere to talk about.
Yes.
But it's kind of you with yourown head working out.
Am I the crazy one?
This is the gaslighting thing is.
Right.
Like am I crazy?
Whereas in a cult you've got awhole lot of people around who are.
They're enamored with this person.
(19:07):
Like they're telling you thatthis is amazing and almost reinforcing
that it is your issue, ifyou've got the issue.
Because we're all doing great.
Exactly.
I'm just curious to know, justgoing back, so what was your mum's
perception, I guess, of thatfirst weekend and did she have any
opinion about you choosing togo on to the next and the next at
(19:31):
that time?
I don't remember her actuallysaying anything about the fact that
I was continuing.
I know that my sister didn'twant to do anything else.
My sister had grown up prettystreet wise, so she kind of clashed
with the cult leader.
I was more sheltered and, youknow, probably a mummy and daddy's
girl.
(19:51):
And I was very naive.
I didn't.
I certainly wasn't street wise.
And so the red flags and evenall that fear that I was feeling
and even towards the cultleader, I wasn't recognizing and
I wasn't admitting that.
Hey, yeah, my gut feeling, myintuition is telling me that she's
a really scary person.
And I was turning it around tosay, just to believe her in the fact
(20:14):
that she was saying, if youare feeling like this, yes, and I
can help you to not feel likethat in the future and I can help
you have your dreams come true.
So I don't remember my momever saying, no, you shouldn't do
this.
And she never did do that.
But back then in the 90s, late90s and even the early 2000s, 2000s
(20:36):
cults, you know, the, theweird and wonderful cults overseas
like Waco and Jonestown, etc.
They were very extreme, butpeople didn't correlate what happened
there to what was happening tous and other groups in Australia.
So there still wasn't a wordfor it.
You know, fast forward toabout 2007 when a lot of people had
(20:58):
left this, our cult.
There was people who startedspeaking up about it and that's when
they, they, you know, termedit a cult.
And my parents heard, oh yes,this is a cult.
And then they educatedthemselves by going to a cult support
group and things like that.
Back then, yeah, I was reallyon my own journey.
So at that point you came outof that week, but you did kind of
get away and you traveledoverseas for a bit and eventually
(21:22):
you ended up back.
Yes.
And you signed on to a muchlonger and intensive program.
That's correct.
Because I couldn't afford todo the year long program which was
called Personal Mastery andMetaphysical Counseling Certificate
to become a counselor.
Counselor, because my God, I know.
So, you know, I'd done lots ofcourses to become a psychic reader,
a metaphysical healer, and Iwanted to do the counseling course
(21:45):
because I wanted to be acounselor and help people and heal
people.
So that was a year long and I,I couldn't afford it at the end of
that year, after the final step.
So an opportunity through afriend of a friend came up to go
and nanny in Italy.
So I did that.
But while I was there, I wasstill completely indoctrinated.
So I was still running everyday and screaming into a face cloth.
You can imagine around Tuscanyand the vineyards and you know, me
(22:08):
running around with a clothyelling and screaming.
It was crazy.
And because I was kind ofstill on a vegan vegetarian diet,
I couldn't even enjoy all ofthe beautiful Italian Food, they
didn't really know what tofeed me.
So it was just shocking.
You know, it just shows thatit doesn't matter whether you're
at a distance from the cult.
If you are indoctrinated, youare still, you know, your, your mind
(22:32):
is completely there no matterwhere you are in the world.
So when I got back, I startedworking in a, in a public relations
firm and I stepped onto theyear long course and that was just
again, just another level.
And we had about 29 people andthere was lots of assignments, book
assignments and we had tojuice 2 liters of juice every day,
(22:54):
stick to a vegan diet, nosugar, no bread, no salt, that type
of thing.
So you're looking at fooddeprivation, sleep deprivation, because
we were running around crazilytrying to do these assignments and
pass books, books on and moreof the mind control techniques were
utilized.
By the end of that she wouldbe up at the room with her support
team at the front and it wasreally, if you can imagine Jerry
(23:16):
Springer, like she wouldpurposely create drama and issues
with the group and she wouldjust watch it and feed off that.
So that was, that's what itwas all about to her.
It was all about drama andbecause you would know with narcissism
and whether it's psychopathy,they're so dead inside and have no
emotions, no empathy.
So really they need to beentertained and get attention.
(23:38):
And that's all that she wasdoing the whole time.
So you know, it just went onand on and I completed course after
course after course and thenthings just progressed where she
was finally actually on ACurrent Affair for an accused of
being a cult leader andfinancially abusing people, etc.
And her reputation really went down.
(24:00):
And then extraordinarily shedecided to become a psychologist
in the year 2000 so that shecould rectify her reputation.
But she didn't really thinkthat through because from that point
on she had to be accountableto our, you know, it's called APRI
here, the Australian HealthPractitioner Regulation Agency.
So before she was notaccountable to anyone, you know,
(24:22):
she'd said that she was acounselor or that she was teaching
people how to counsel, butshe'd never done a counseling course.
She said that she wasqualified in alternate systems and
healing and relationshipcounseling, things like that, but
her degree was actually in agriculture.
So I think that's anotherthing that's really important for
red flags and just for thepublic to, to know about when you
(24:45):
are getting involved withanyone, whether it's a, an organization,
a group, a Meetup even a person.
Look them up online and doyour research.
Because in this day and age,no one can get away with anything.
So you will find a comment orreview or just something somewhere
(25:05):
about that particular group,person or organization.
And yeah, you just.
I think the other thing is youcan't be naive anymore and you can't
allow your children to grow up sheltered.
That is a very good point.
And going back, you didn'tnecessarily have the benefit of the
Internet like you.
You actually didn't haveaccess to Google to be able to see
(25:25):
who this person was or whatother people have said.
You only had what was right infront of you.
Right.
So that we now have a lot moreaccess to information.
I mean, still, people stillget scammed and, and get sucked into
these things.
But you were really at adisadvantage at that time.
Yes.
And then around 2007, which,if I'm not mistaken, was around when
(25:46):
the Internet was really cominginto its own.
I could be mistaken, butthat's when there was Facebook started.
Then it did.
Yeah.
So that's when some blogstarted appearing on a cult education
website.
Rick Ross, if anyone's heardabout him.
And so that's when peoplestarted just telling the truth about
this cult leader and what hadhappened to them, calling her a narcissist
(26:09):
and a psychopath and justeverything that she'd actually done,
the physical abuse, the verbalabuse, the financial abuse.
And then she ended up suing ortrying to sue those people.
So after A Current Affair, atleast half or more of her base of
cult members actuallydisappeared because they woke up.
And then her true believers,including myself, stayed with her,
(26:32):
supported her and defended her.
I ended up working for her for10 years.
And, you know, she blamed.
She used me as a scapegoat ona number of occasions.
You know, the AustralianTaxation Office came in to investigate
her and she blamed that on me.
And then I had to repay hermoney for that.
And that took about four years.
And, you know, this is where Ihope I'm not jumping ahead, but where
(26:55):
the human trafficking andslavery comes in, because that was
debt bondage and, you know,forced labor.
She didn't pay me for any ofthe work I did.
I think it's, it's great thatgovernments and authorities are now
looking at cults not only asthese, you know, extremist religious
organizations and people areidiots and they, you know, it's their
(27:15):
fault, but they're looking atit as human trafficking and slavery
because that is exactly whatthe legislation states.
What we went through was thatand unfortunately for me and my peers,
the legislation for humantrafficking, slavery, wasn't amended
until about March 2012.
(27:36):
So anyone that was a victimafter that time can really go to
the police and get, hopefully, justice.
Just while I'm on it, youknow, if anyone does escape from
a cult, don't go to the mediaand just, you know, tell them what
happened.
Please go to the authorities first.
Go to the police.
(27:56):
Report exactly what happened,all the abuse, whatever it was, financial,
psychological, sexual.
It's really important toreport it to the police first.
You did end up working for her.
You were quite keen to getmore involved into the organization.
You took a job, then shedidn't pay you, she never had the
money to pay you.
(28:16):
Yeah.
And then somehow or other shealso ended up figuring out that you
owed her money.
So you were indebted not justfor the ATO stuff, she manufactured
all of these other reasons whyyou apparently owed her money.
That's correct.
For example, she went on a skitrip with her children and her nephew,
(28:37):
and I organized it.
And then she made claims whenshe got back that I didn't book transfers
or the.
Her accommodation right on theski slopes, you know, this, that
and the other.
And so I had to pay her$10,000 for that.
So, you know, I had to pay her 5.
Just.
Yeah, just made that up.
Just.
Just decided that was worth$10,000 for a penalty.
(28:59):
Exactly.
And, you know, and people say,well, if you weren't getting paid,
you know, how are you giving her?
How did you pay her?
Yeah, so I was working secondand third jobs, so I was waitressing
or I worked at a cinema on theGold coast for four years.
Later on, I worked atMcDonald's, you know, and by the
way, at that point I thought Iwas only worthy of working at McDonald's.
She ended up buying a guesthouse and a beauty salon down at
(29:23):
Byron Bay during my time with her.
And I was cleaning the guesthouse, I was performing, you know,
massages and pedicures andthings like that.
So it was all about her.
She would go out on her boator surfboarding with her partner
at the time, and she.
It was all about us doing allthe work for her.
And she would just be rapingthe benefits financially and having
(29:44):
her free time off.
And we were just slaves.
I mean, I was working honestlyup to 22 hours a day, seven days
a week in the last few years.
There was times when I wasonly having two hours sleep and,
you know, there was a few, afew nights that I didn't have Any
sleep.
That's why I always say it'sup to 22 hours a day.
So it's, it's, it's just incredible.
I think people don't reallyunderstand how someone like myself
(30:09):
and others could actuallysurvive like this or do this.
Now the bit that you missedwas at some point that you got into
a relationship with somebodywho actually wasn't involved with
the organization.
But he did become involved.
Did he have any red flags atthe beginning or was he kind of happy?
Did he consider this to be apositive thing because you thought
(30:30):
it was a positive thing?
Like what was that?
Because you then had two kids?
Two.
Three.
Yeah, three.
Three kids.
While you were doing all ofthese jobs and work and being abused
and having no money, you alsohad children?
That's correct.
He actually had done the firstprogram, the next evolutionary stuff.
And he actually went to schoolwith a girl who was on my year long
(30:52):
course and he was living withher and that's how he knew about
the courses.
So he had actually done thefirst one.
And then, you know, I knowthat if it wasn't for me, he probably
would have left the group alot earlier and particularly after
we did have children.
You know, after every childthings escalated and he actually
left for a little while.
And a lot of the premise forwhy I was doing the courses was to
(31:15):
cleanse my cellular memory formy children and also the planet and
myself.
So once children were on thescene, that was another leverage
for the cult leader to keep us there.
And she would always tell usthat we needed to continue to evolve
for the sake of our children.
What was the turning point?
What caused you to eventually leave?
(31:38):
As I mentioned, she had beensuing a lot of people, including
three other ex members andalso my parents for defamation.
So she needed to raise fundsfor all of her legal cases.
She was under a lot ofpressure and so there wasn't too
many of us left.
But we were again working onher accounts and I was only having
(32:04):
two hours sleep a night.
I had three children by that point.
My ex husband, now he had lefttwo years before at this point and
was just sort of seeing meonce a week and the kids once a week
to help look after them.
So there was a lot of pressurefor me.
She ended up physicallybattering me again in a very frenzied
(32:25):
attack.
Like she punched me in theface, gave me a black eye.
I think it was the 27th ofDecember and then on the 29th, she
really beat the crap out of meand pinned me to the Ground and was
screaming in my face, pullingmy hair out, all that type of thing,
kicking me as she did.
And I had just really got tothe point where I just could not
cope anymore.
(32:45):
She was calling me a conartist, that I wasn't paying enough,
you know, to her and everyoneelse, and that I was conning everyone
else.
And I had got to the pointwhere just physically, spiritually,
emotionally, mentally, I couldnot cope anymore.
And you know, logically I hadworked out that I couldn't actually
(33:08):
keep going.
Like I'd always been trying tomanifest money and you know, she
got me onto the Sendlink,Single Mothers Pension and Family
Assistance, etc.
At one point.
And that money obviously wentdirectly to her.
And so I'd been on that forabout four years and then I've been
working at McDonald's andother side jobs.
But I worked out that what shewas proposing for me to give her
(33:29):
and everyone else financially,I'd only have $50 at the end of the
week for food and putting mykids into, you know, long daycare
pay for that and just thingslike that.
So logically my brain actuallyrealized I'm not going to be able
to do this anymore.
And there was just one daywhere she called me down to her house
and I thought she was going tobash me up again.
(33:52):
And she was just screaming atme and telling everyone, you know,
not to speak to me anymore.
And I was being treated like dirt.
And my children, she wasstarting to say that my children
were liars at that point.
They were eight, five and twoand a half.
And yeah, basically when Iwalked out of the house, she hadn't
physically assaulted me, but Ithought it's only a matter of time.
And I just thought, look, Ijust have to, I have to go because
(34:14):
I can't do anything.
And I just made this sort ofbet with myself and I ended up walking
down the hill thinking thateveryone would find me and follow
me, but they didn't.
And I just filled my car upwith everything and went and picked
up my three children fromdaycare and vacation care and yeah,
basically drove to my exhusband's work and just started speaking
to him.
(34:35):
And because I had made thatdecision even though I was still
indoctrinated and sort oftalking myself in, just saying, you
know, I'm gonna tell her thatI'm not gonna, you know, work through
the night.
I'm only gonna work during theday, this and the other.
But once I was with my exhusband in a safe place with my three
children within five Minutes.
(34:55):
My brain just started, youknow, wow.
Just.
I was out of that survivalmode and it just started functioning.
And I thought, oh, my God, sheis a cult leader and that is a cult.
And then that was it.
It.
So it's long and short of it.
Yeah.
I mean, there is so much thatyou haven't even mentioned to do
with the criminal activity,the money that she was illegally
(35:16):
collecting on behalf of loadsof, like, there's so much there.
People can read, get the bookif they want, all of that.
Yes.
But, Carly, when you came toyour senses basically that day and
then you left, what was theprocess for your healing to recover
from that?
It was.
It was a huge process.
(35:36):
And just the recovery forpeople who've been in a cult, it
takes years and years.
You know, some people estimatethat however long you've been in
the cult will be how long itwill take to get over it.
And, you know, I was in therefor 13 and a half years, and honestly,
not until like, five years, 10years down the track, you start to
feel normal.
First of all, you go throughthings like, you know, I caught up
(35:58):
with all of my school friendsand some uni friends that I hadn't
seen for that whole time.
And, you know, the schoolfriends, I divulged to them stuff
that had happened, and, youknow, they just look at you as if
you're like a weird creatureand don't understand anything.
And, you know, they never,ever called me back, and I never
saw them again.
So you've lost all your friends?
You know, I had a familymember that didn't speak to me for
(36:19):
three years, and then afterthat, barely spoke to me.
You know, I've tried to gettherapy a few times, and there was
one psychologist who saidabout five times, oh, look, this
is really overwhelming, youknow, overwhelming because I was
just verbally diary for likean hour.
Even psychologists, we findthat they just can't understand and
really help us because what wehave experienced is so extreme.
(36:42):
But I ended up doing emdr,which I found really good.
I did that about three timesback then, and then I ended up doing
it more after the court case.
I thought I better go back andjust tidy up just the last finishing
touches of what was going on.
And I did that about threetimes in three weeks.
And it does bring up a lot.
I really found that helpful,but it is very.
(37:03):
It just brings up everythingstraight away, and it is a lot to
deal with.
Even though I had movedthrough so much emotionally and processed
so much, for me, it brought upa lot.
So I can't imagine what itwould do.
Just a person with just some,some ptsd.
I joined a cult support groupcalled Cult Information and Family
Support kifs, which my parentshad been involved with.
And that was really helpful.
(37:25):
You get to be around people,either parents and loved ones who
have had people in a cult orstill do.
And you get to talk to ex cult members.
And I think it's really important.
That is one really big thingthat I recommend is that, you know,
no matter whether you've beenin a cult or with a narcissist or
someone like that in a gang,really hang around people and seek
(37:45):
support from those who haveexperienced it.
Yeah.
And you know, just I hadn'thad a job.
I mentioned that I worked at McDonald's.
Like when I got out of thecult, I was too scared to get a job
for almost two years and Ithought I was only, you know, I could
only work on the front counterof McDonald's.
That's how I felt.
And I, you know, had auniversity degree and had so much
(38:06):
promise at uni and afterwardsthat wasn't fulfilled.
So I had to build up my selfesteem again as far as my career
is concerned, make new friendsand which to, you know, didn't happen
too much.
And you know, I guess whenyou've been in a cult situation or
with a narcissist or apsychopath, you really don't trust
people.
(38:26):
So you have to work out how toset boundaries and learn how to do
that for the first time inyour life.
And I had believed in Jesusand God and been very religious when
I was up to 19 and then in thenew age, I was still very spiritual.
I was very spiritual the wholetime and I am now.
But I really turned away from,you know, even saying Jesus or God.
(38:46):
So that, that's a shame in away because I really was so scarred
that I cut connection evenjust with those particular words.
But now I'm sort of startingto get back to just really realizing
that everything I wentthrough, you know, cults, they will
have different themes anddifferent recruitment methods and
(39:10):
you know, they might be Biblebased groups or whatever it is.
Mine was a new age groupbecause I believed in the new age
and I still do.
So it's, it's a shame that acult leader or a narcissist will
really work on you so muchthat you lose your innate self and
you really have to try andrebuild that and rebuild those connections
(39:31):
and those beliefs again.
Yeah, yeah.
But look it, it's taken A long time.
And, you know, I guess alsogoing into the cult when I was 21,
you know, I didn't come outuntil I was 35.
So I lost all of my 20s andhalf of my 30s.
That was something that I hadto accept.
Carly, how much faith do youactually have in psychologists, given
that your cult leader iscurrently a registered psychologist
(39:53):
in Australia and stillregistered with ahpra?
Exactly.
I, I mean, I don't want to sayanything too bad, certainly don't
think I can be sued fordefamation for this, but I don't
have faith in ahpra.
My cult leader is actuallyalso registered with the HCPC in
the uk and I've communicated with.
(40:13):
I did write a book about myexperiences and self published it
in 2017.
And then I was subsequentlysued for defamation and I spent over
six years defending myself.
And I went to trial fromSeptember to December 2023, and I
stood up in the court and ranthe whole trial myself.
(40:34):
It was over 10 weeks and onthe 1st of March, I ended up winning
the court case with.
With 12 imputations ruledabsolutely true, and 4 imputations
ruled substantially true.
And it was a scathing judgmentof the cult leader and that the Supreme
Court judge called her anarrant liar and a cult leader.
And she ended up appealing.
(40:54):
And obviously I wasresearching all of the law myself.
I only spoke to a couple oflawyers very briefly at either end
of the court case.
And, you know, I just happenedupon the legislation about that you
can get an appeal dismissedfor want of prosecution if you know
it's prejudiced against thedefendant or if she's taking too
much time.
And there was a couple ofother things.
(41:14):
And miraculously, after threeand a half months, I got the appeal
dismissed.
And that was on the 8th of July.
And so both those judgmentsagainst the cult leader I sent to
APRA and the hcpc and they'vehardly corresponded with me at all.
And basically I believe thatthey're waiting for a criminal verdict.
You know, I've handed over allof my evidence to the Australian
(41:36):
Federal Police.
I was very determined to speakthe truth and seek justice because
no one had managed to do it.
She had sued multiple organizations.
Had she?
Yeah, and, you know, myparents and ex cult members as well
as university and, you know, ACurrent Affair, et cetera.
So she'd been extremely litigious.
For some reason, I felt like Ihad the balls to take her to court
(42:00):
and win, and I did.
At the end, after I won theappeal, you know, I was still determined
to take it right to the end, criminally.
But really I've had to juststep back and, and say, you know,
it's up to the police now.
It's up to AHPRA and the HCPCto do their job.
I mean, the Supreme Courtjudge and the Chief justice have
(42:20):
stated that it's absolutelytrue that she battered myself and
others, incited others tobatter others, that she committed
sexual assault, that she is acriminal even.
It's substantially true thatshe's a violent extremist, that she's
likely to suffer fromnarcissistic and borderline personality
disorder.
There were some big thingsthat I proved.
(42:42):
So surely an absolutely truestatement is as good as beyond reasonable
doubt.
But AHPRA and the HCPC havenot taken action and she is still
able to practice as apsychologist in both Australia and
the uk.
I just need to have a littlechuckle about that.
I mean, to be honest, Carly,I'm a psychologist and the fear that
exists among, among thepsychology profession.
(43:02):
I mean, like, people areterrified that any little thing that
they do, they're going to getcalled up to.
Ah, that's why I had as acontextual imputation that she's
likely to be a psychopath,because she had put in her imputations,
in her statement of claimthat, you know, I reduced her reputation,
stating that she's likely tosuffer from narcissism and borderline
personality disorder.
(43:22):
I put in the contextualimputation that she's likely to be
a psychopath.
The judge actually put in hisjudgment that she definitely has
a psychological disorder,whether it be, you know, narcissism
or, you know, psychopathy,that type of thing.
He actually put it in thejudgment, you know, even that as
far as APRA's concerned, youknow, I know, with their laws, Section
(43:44):
51, I think it is, that ifthey have some sort of personality
disorder or they're acriminal, that they should be struck
off.
But it still hasn't happened.
Effy, many people who havesimilar experience to what you had
when they come out, like, theynever talk about it, there's a level
of shame involved.
But you've been really open.
Has it been.
Do you think that's beenhelpful for you to talk about it
(44:07):
and get your story out there?
Yeah, it's interesting becauseas I mentioned, I was an executive
assistant and I nevermentioned it to anyone right up until
I was about to publish my book.
So I always kept it hiddenfrom my work colleagues.
I definitely wanted to tellthe truth about her because I was
always a person, even in thecult that told the truth.
(44:30):
And even though I did some.
What would be deemed horriblethings in the cult myself, I was
prepared to wear that becauseI know that I was indoctrinated,
and it probably wouldn't havehappened if I wasn't in the cult,
and I had to wear the factthat things might come back against
me.
But I was prepared to betotally truthful and honest so that
(44:53):
I could tell the entire truthabout the cult leader and what happened
in the culture.
When people are going toexpose someone else, they have to
be prepared for any backlashagainst them.
And I just believed so much intelling the truth about her because
for years and years, like,over 20, 30 years now, people have
been trying to tell the truth,but she's been trying to censor them
(45:15):
with litigation.
So, as I said, I don't knowwhy, but for some reason, I just
felt like I had the courageand the boldness to take her on,
because innately, I've hadthat strength.
I mean, funnily enough, duringthe courses, you get to know what
your name means.
And my name, Kali, meansstrong woman and free woman.
And it's funny because I usethings like, you know, the goddess,
(45:37):
Indian goddess Kali.
Throughout the court case, Ihad a picture of Kali up on the wall.
And during the trial, I was,for the first time, calling on, you
know, archangel Michael andJesus Christ and God and relying
on all of whatever I hadaccess to to get me through that,
because every day, I had toface her from memory.
I think I cr her on the standfor 17 days.
(45:58):
Oh, my God.
So I know.
And.
And we'd moved into a largercourtroom, into a small courtroom,
so she was literally, like, ameter and a half away from me.
And I had to face this womanwho had.
Wow.
Basically persecuted me for 13and a half years and bashed the shit
out of me.
I had to face her, and I hadto question her and.
And listen to her lie.
Absolutely.
(46:19):
Oh, that was just the major thing.
Like, luckily, my mom actuallywent, and she was there with me every
single day for.
We were down in Hobart forthree months, and we just could not
get over how much she lied andexaggerated, like, it was just beyond
a joke.
But that was great because,you know, I knew that I had to ask
her questions about things and then.
(46:40):
And get her to lie, and then Iwould bring out the actual evidence.
And that's what actually wonme this court case, is because I'm.
I'm an executive assistant,and I have kept her.
Yeah, I used all myorganizational abilities and all
the evidence I had, I'd kept everything.
So I had the evidence.
And.
And that's why, you know, Iknow a lot of people don't win their
cases is because they don'thave enough evidence.
(47:02):
You know, you're relying onwhat people say and reputation and
how they come across in the courtroom.
But I had tendered over 400documents and videos and audio.
So, yeah, good on you.
Good on you.
So, I mean, to representyourself and then face her.
I am conscious of the time.
But I did want to say, too,like you, you got out of the cult.
(47:23):
You would think that is thestep where you start to.
That's the point where you canstart just getting on with your life.
But like you said, she hascontinued in her capacity now as
a psychologist, has eventhreatened to report you to children's
services, to have yourchildren taken away.
Like, she basically continuesto try to exert whatever influence
(47:43):
and power she has to controlyou, even once you're out.
That's correct.
She used the tool of wheneveranyone escaped because she knew they
would go to the police, shewent to the police first.
So whenever anyone left, shewould report them to the police for
either stealing or beingabusive to their kids, that type
of thing.
That's why it's reallyimportant when anyone has had physical,
(48:07):
sexual, financial abuse to goand report it to the police.
And see, I didn't even reportit until after the newspaper articles
came out.
I don't even know why.
It's ridiculous.
Like, we just think that weshould just either get on with our
lives or we'll go to the media first.
It's crazy.
You need to report everythingthat happens to you.
And here's where the educationcomes in.
(48:28):
You know, you need to realizethat no one is allowed to physically
hurt you, sexually hurt you,financially hurt you, coerce you,
be misleading and coerce youto do something or say something
that you don't really want to.
Yeah.
It is up to parents and thecommunity to educate everyone, and
particularly our childrenabout the types of people that are
(48:50):
out in our community.
And yeah, when somethinghappens, to just report it.
Carly, I really appreciate youtaking the time to talk to me today.
I'm sure it's not easy to talkabout it all over again, but I'm
really in awe to be honest andappreciate you telling your story
to help other people and toeducate other people.
(49:12):
Credit to you.
Thank you.
Thanks very much, Cass.
Thank you so much.
Crabby to Happy is created andproduced by me, Cass Dunn.
If you enjoy the show Pleasehit the follow button wherever you
listen to ensure you nevermiss an episode.
Share with a friend to get meinto the ears of more lovely listeners
and I would love for you toleave a five star rating and review.
Thank you so much for beinghere and I cannot wait to catch you
(49:33):
next week for another fabulousepisode of Cracker To.
Foreign.
This is Crappy to Happy and Iam your host, Cass Dunn.
I'm a clinical and coachingpsychologist and mindfulness meditation
teacher and of course authorof the Crappy to Happy books.
In this show I bring youconversations with interesting, inspiring,
intelligent people who areexperts in their field and who have
(00:23):
something of value to sharethat will help you feel less crappy
and more happy.
Foreign.
Welcome back to Crafter Happy.
My guest this week is Carly McConkey.
Carly was your average 21 yearold, finished university, feeling
(00:48):
a little bit unsure of herdirection when she enrolled in a
personal development course,which ultimately ended up being the
pathway into a new agedoomsday cult.
She then went on to spend allof her 20s and half of her 30s trapped
and obviously spent many, manyyears afterwards recovering.
Carly was courageous enough towrite a book about her experience,
(01:11):
which ultimately led to herbeing sued for defamation by the
cult leader.
And again, Carly was braveenough to face her in court and to
win that defamation case.
I've been fascinated by thepsychology of cults.
Like what leads people to join cults?
Why do they stay?
How do they get involved for along time, which is why I was so
(01:32):
interested to speak to aperson who has actually had experience
and was willing to talk aboutwhat they went through.
The other reason I'm reallyfascinated by this topic is because
of the overlap that I see andthat obviously exists between the
psychology and the mindset ofcults and conspiracy theories and
the tribalism that exists inpolitics these days.
(01:54):
All of the us versus Them mentality.
I think that there is a lothere to be explored in more detail
because I think it's reallyeasy to sit back and to hear a story
like Carly's and to think,well, that would never be me.
I would never be that foolish.
I would never let myself getinto that situation.
Almost victim blaming, butalso othering.
Whereas I think if we stepoutside of the direct experience
(02:18):
and actually look at some ofthe reasons why this happens, our
common human need for, formeaning, for a sense of identity,
for a sense of belonging andpurpose, our cognitive biases, our
confirmation biases, thetribalism that we ourselves can get
into.
I just think there issomething in this for all of us.
For now, I'm just reallygrateful to Carly for her courage
(02:42):
and for her honesty in sharingher story with me.
There is so much more to thisstory that we didn't go into.
Let's hear Carly's story.
Carly McConkey, welcome to theCrappy to Happy podcast.
Thank you Cass.
Lovely to be here Carly, youspent over a decade, many years in
(03:02):
a cult experiencing somepretty harrowing abuse as we'll talk
about about in a minute.
I'm really curious to go backto the beginning to understand where
were you at in life generallyand in terms of your psychology,
you know, emotionally when youfirst encountered this organization.
Like what was your firstexperience of them?
(03:23):
I guess.
Well, I had finisheduniversity in about the November,
December of the year beforeand it was May of the following year,
so it wasn't even sort of six months.
And I had done communicationat uni, public relations and I'd
done internship and I justdidn't know whether PR was for me.
So I was very unsure about my direction.
(03:45):
I had left school and gone touniversity in country New South Wales
at Bathurst.
And so I'd been away from homefor three years coming back and yeah,
just very unsure about where Iwas at.
I, at that stage I was fairlysheltered and I hadn't had a boyfriend
yet.
So you know, I was just, I hada bit of low self esteem, to be honest.
(04:09):
And also at the end of myfirst year of uni I had quite a shock.
My mum told me that she hadadopted out a daughter as a baby
and that her daughter had comeback in contact with her.
And so I had a sister.
So that was a fairly traumaticexperience in hindsight because,
(04:30):
you know, just knowing thatI'd sort of been lied to all those
years, even though of courseit's not something that you would
talk about.
Yeah, just everything wasquite unsettled and I had a lot of
ambition and wanted to make adifference in the world.
I'd also been Catholic upuntil I was 19 and then I moved more
into sort of the spiritual newage and started investigating that
(04:53):
and reading a lot of books, et cetera.
And so I went to the Mind BodySpirit Festival in Sydney.
I went to have a psychic reading.
I'd had a couple before at uniand this particular psych reader
told me that to reach mypotential and have great relationships,
find my direction in life,etc, I should do this course called
(05:13):
the Next Evolutionary Step.
And she gave me a brochure anda tape and things like that and directed
me to a stand at the Mind BodySpirit Festival.
And when I went there, that'swhere I found out about this particular
course, which is really what Iknow now to be the recruitment process
that they went through at thattime doing psychic readings and healings
at the Mind Body Spirit Festival.
(05:35):
So, so I chatted with somepeople on the stand and they told
me that there was a free StageOne seminar at the Hilton Hotel which
sounded very legitimate andpromising in the June.
So I went to that and thenheard the woman who was very charismatic
at the front, who had designedthe programs, who ended up being
(05:56):
the cult leader.
She got people up who'd donethe program and they all gave testimonials,
et cetera, and.
And then straight away I justsigned up to do the first course
and that was in July.
So you were just out of uni.
You're like 2021.
That's just such a familiarkind of a story.
You know, I've been to theMind Body Spirit Festival in Sydney.
(06:16):
I've probably had a psychicreading there.
Yeah, but that's so relatable.
When you went to that firstintroductory session.
Yes.
And then you chose to go onand do one of their courses.
Yes.
You took your mom.
I did.
I actually took my mom and mysister, my half s, you know, they
wanted to come and support me.
(06:37):
You know, my mom actually saidat the time, just to make sure it's
not a cult.
Even though cults weren't verywell known back then.
I remember her actually saying that.
And we did the first programand that was at a university in Sydney
called Macquarie University.
So again, you know, supposedlyvery legitimate place.
It was a Thursday night,Friday night after work, it went
(06:58):
to like 11pm at night and thenyou had to be back on the weekend
on the Saturday and Sunday at9am so full day Saturday, full day
Sunday.
And then the Monday night wasthe graduation, as such.
And yeah, essentially whatcults do is they recruit you.
Right.
Coercively and deceptively.
So, you know, I thought that Iwas doing this self development program
(07:20):
that was a bit new age andthat would help me reach my potential.
But once you, once they getyou in, then they do what we call
mind control techniques.
So that whole sort of fivenight, two day course was all long
sessions where this woman upthe front, the designer of the programs,
(07:40):
would talk and lecture to usabout all wonderful things, doing,
you know, how to become psychic.
She spoke about crystals, shespoke about healing the planet.
We did a lot of meditation, weeven did chanting, we did dancing
every time we came in.
So you're in this really hyper mood.
We were put onto a vegan dietand juicing fresh fruit juice, about
(08:02):
a liter, I think it was every day.
There's also techniques calledlike sleep deprivation and sensory
deprivation.
So our sleep deprivation was,as I said, getting home.
And she gave us exercises thatwe had to do we had to listen to
her meditation tapes.
And then the next morning wehad to get up early and do lots of
the juicing and get our foodready and things like that.
(08:23):
So already your sleep is lacking.
At that point, the sensoryoverload was just.
So many things were happeningon that course.
We went through all these processes.
The biggest thing was what shetermed accessing.
She said that we had to clearour cellular memory from this lifetime,
our past lifetimes and ourancestors, so that we could make
(08:44):
a better world for ourchildren, that we would get our health
better and reach thatpotential that we were there to do.
We had about 80 people in the cause.
And to do accessing, you had,she brought out these big black mats
that were about 6 foot by 4foot, those big gymnastic mats, and
there was 80 people justbanging and yelling and screaming
and crying and all that sortof thing.
(09:06):
So it was really confrontingfor me.
And, yeah, there was one pointwhere, you know, I was huddled up
with my mum in a corner, andthen the charismatic leader who became
the cult leader said somethinglike, you know, why are you doing
that?
You need to takeresponsibility for yourself.
And already she was separatingme from my mum.
(09:26):
So, you know, in cultstructures, from the very beginning,
it's divide and conquer.
Separate you from your family,your friends, and just really hone
you on relying on that cultleader for everything.
You know, you no longer relyon yourself.
You look to them for all youranswers to everything.
(09:47):
Yeah, so there's a lot aboutthat that almost can sound valid,
some of those things.
But then there's all of thisother stuff interwoven.
Exactly.
And then what happened was atthe end of that course, because our
systems or our bodies and ourmind, emotions were just everywhere.
Like, we felt a lot lighterbecause we'd gone through all of
(10:08):
that sort of purging ofemotions and things like that.
We're at such a heightenedstage, but we also still had a lot
of fear and we still had thosesort of.
That feeling of sort ofheaviness as well.
And she said things like, toevolve, you need to continue to do
these programs and I can help you.
You know, I am the way.
And so that was the July, andthen I signed up for a course for
(10:29):
September, which was calledUniversal Healing, which was at her
property in northern New South Wales.
And that was a Friday nightand all weekend course, which I did.
I did that by myself.
Then I signed up to one in theOctober, which was only a month later
called the Final Step.
And that was where the realmind Control techniques were really
(10:50):
supplanted and just thoroughly.
The foundation was laidbecause in that one it was terrifying.
We met at a university in Brisbane.
The cult leader had said that,you know, you only do this course
once and you have to puteverything into it.
We weren't told anything aboutthe courses.
We were never told anythingabout the courses.
And you were told thatspecifically that you are not allowed
(11:12):
to tell anyone else whathappened on each course.
So we arrived there, the cultleader and all of her support team
were standing at the front.
They weren't smiling, theywere sort of yelling and screaming.
The cult leader was yelling,she was asking for our id, our wallets.
We couldn't, we had to handeverything over.
And eventually, after hoursand hours, what was probably about
five hours, we were put.
(11:33):
We were marched out in a lineonto a blackened out bus and we drove.
We had no watches, we didn'tknow what time it was.
We didn't know what was happening.
We drove on a bus allblackened out for hours and hours
and eventually we weren'tallowed to go to the toilet.
She said that we could only goto the toilet when she told us we
could.
So already that was terrifyingfor me.
(11:54):
And we ended up getting thereto this property which was in the
middle of nowhere.
We had no idea where we were.
Obviously mobile phones didn'texist then.
But yeah, we didn't have anyway to get home or contact anyone.
So we were there.
And then it was more lectures,more meditating, more chanting.
We only had somewhere up to 17hours sleep.
(12:16):
So we only had a couple ofhours sleep per night and we went
without food for 24 hours.
Lots of yelling at us.
She made us yell and scream ateach other, bring issues up with
each other.
And there was just a wholeheap of different stuff that really
solidified those mind control techniques.
And I really believe that evenfrom the first stage, one seminar,
(12:36):
I was already hooked and I wasalready indoctrinated.
But if you weren't by thatstage, the final step definitely
did that.
You talk, you talk aboutthings like making you stand on a
stage naked and talk aboutwhat you don't like about your body.
Have people tell you what theydon't like about your body.
These are the kinds ofhumiliation tactics.
Basically.
I just want people listeningto understand the kinds of things
(12:58):
that you were exposed to.
It wasn't just fooddeprivation and it wasn't just like
sleep deprivation.
There were these very personalattacks, humiliation.
So you can imagine a propertywhere all we see is some trees and
it's Sort of dirt all around us.
And they had tents set up.
There was two of us staying ina tent and we'd be listening to lectures
(13:20):
late into the night when itwas totally dark.
And then, you know, we don't.
We'd go to bed and we didn'tknow because we didn't have a watch.
But two hours later we'd bewoken up really suddenly and then
we had to get up and start itall over again.
We used to have to do this run.
And then after the run, yeah,we had to strip naked and had to
jump into this pond.
And we weren't allowed to getout of the pond until the cult leader
(13:41):
told us we were allowed to.
And the time would only startwhen the last person got in.
So all of us were just, youknow, peddling in this pond that
I believe had leeches and wecouldn't even see under it, it was
dark.
So that was terrifying.
And then, as I mentioned, wewere not allowed to go to the toilet
until she told us.
We had sort of five minutesand then there was only three portaloos
(14:03):
and 80 people had to go to thetoilet within, you know, a five minute
time.
Fr if you missed out, you hadto wait till the next one.
It was all about, yeah, fear, humiliation.
There was a process where,yeah, one night in the middle of
the night when it was dark, wewere in the big marquee and there
was a stage and first of allwe had our swimmers on.
(14:25):
And then she said that if youcan stand naked in front of people,
you can do anything, you know,and we all got up and did it one
after the other.
And yeah, it was complete humiliation.
I just remember sweating andfeeling horrible.
And you had people who werefrom about 17 years of age to like
80 years of age, men andwomen, boys and girls.
(14:46):
Yeah, we had to say what weliked about our body, what we didn't.
And then the people in theaudience could come in as well.
So, yeah, they're just a fewof the things that happened.
So.
And all of this you've beentold too, that you're not to discuss
with anybody.
So there's no talking to yourparents about this or no getting
anybody else's opinion aboutwhether this.
Yeah.
And I think then at the end you.
(15:07):
We were told to bring like aparty outfit as well, and that got
taken at the beginning.
And then right at the end,after you've been through this, you
know, seven nights and eightdays of hell, then the last night
is this big party.
And of course, you know,you're happy in this, that and the
other, and you're shell shocked.
You know, what the f justhappened to us.
But it's that kind of dualityas well, where you go through hell
(15:30):
and then you have this one bigparty for one night and then it's
like hell again.
And, and that's kind of whathappened through the whole process
of those years.
It was, you know, the cultleader might say one nice thing to
you, but then, you know,she'll say a hundred really horrible
things about you.
And it's always this uphillbattle and struggle to climb out
of where you've been.
And what was your kind ofmental state coming out the other
(15:54):
side of that?
Because you went back again, right?
So what, what, what, what'shappening for you out of the other
side of that?
Horrible.
I just think that I alwaysfelt like I had a lot of problems.
You know, I was always selfreflecting, trying to better myself.
You know, I was a bitoverweight back then and I knew I
(16:15):
wasn't perfect.
And I really had this internaldrive to keep going and evolve and
get to, you know, thisenlightened state.
And I felt better, but I stillfelt very heavy and I had a lot of
fear.
So I knew that I had to keep going.
And that just is what happenedthe whole way through.
You know, I never felt like Iwas on the other side.
(16:37):
And I think that's what thecult leader and cults do is there's
always, they're alwaysdangling this carrot to say, you
know, you're not there yet,you need to do more, go higher, higher,
higher with your involvement, etc.
That's what they do the whole time.
You know, they, they love bomb you.
You know, the cult leaderwould verbally sort of abuse us and
put us down, and then, youknow, she might lift you up once
(17:00):
and then put you down a numberof times.
And it's just that game.
And so you're never in a good place.
And she said that you need toaccess the heavy emotions before
you get to the lighter ones.
And, you know, we would justaccess the same thing over and over
again.
All these heavy emotions andobviously there was no light ones.
So, you know, it really was anongoing process.
(17:22):
What you just described soundsso similar to essentially being in
a relationship with anarcissistic abuser.
This constant erosion of yourself esteem and your sense of self
worth and then these likelittle, you know, crumbs of positive
reinforcement that you thenlatch onto and you become just almost
obsessed with getting more of that.
(17:43):
Positive reinforcement becauseyou're feeling so about yourself.
Absolutely.
And then the only person whocan make you feel better, like they're.
They've told you andindoctrinated you that they are.
Yes.
The way.
Yes.
And when we're educating aboutcults, we always talk about the one
on one relationship, which iswhen you're with a narcissist or
even a psychopath.
So yeah, it's exactly the same thing.
(18:03):
Coercive control, but on agrander scale, I guess, because,
you know, cults are always.
That the term cult, you know,people always either think that anyone
who's been in a cult is an idiot.
They got themselves in there,it's their fault.
But you can just look at it asa gang mentality or peer pressure
that you have that one on one.
But it's on a grander scaleand you've got not only the cult
(18:26):
leader that you have tocontend with, but you've got a whole
group of her supporters that,you know, if you put one foot wrong
then you're going to have thewhole of the group sick onto you
and not just one person.
So I was going to say.
Yeah, I'm not going to saywhat's worse, you know, one on one
is really horrible.
Horrible.
But then also the groupdynamic is.
Is horrible as well.
(18:46):
On a grander scale.
Yeah, I was actually going tomention that.
So with the one on one abuser.
Not that that's what we'rehere to talk about.
Yes.
But it's kind of you with yourown head working out.
Am I the crazy one?
This is the gaslighting thing is.
Right.
Like am I crazy?
Whereas in a cult you've got awhole lot of people around who are.
They're enamored with this person.
(19:07):
Like they're telling you thatthis is amazing and almost reinforcing
that it is your issue, ifyou've got the issue.
Because we're all doing great.
Exactly.
I'm just curious to know, justgoing back, so what was your mum's
perception, I guess, of thatfirst weekend and did she have any
opinion about you choosing togo on to the next and the next at
(19:31):
that time?
I don't remember her actuallysaying anything about the fact that
I was continuing.
I know that my sister didn'twant to do anything else.
My sister had grown up prettystreet wise, so she kind of clashed
with the cult leader.
I was more sheltered and, youknow, probably a mummy and daddy's
girl.
(19:51):
And I was very naive.
I didn't.
I certainly wasn't street wise.
And so the red flags and evenall that fear that I was feeling
and even towards the cultleader, I wasn't recognizing and
I wasn't admitting that.
Hey, yeah, my gut feeling, myintuition is telling me that she's
a really scary person.
And I was turning it around tosay, just to believe her in the fact
(20:14):
that she was saying, if youare feeling like this, yes, and I
can help you to not feel likethat in the future and I can help
you have your dreams come true.
So I don't remember my momever saying, no, you shouldn't do
this.
And she never did do that.
But back then in the 90s, late90s and even the early 2000s, 2000s
(20:36):
cults, you know, the, theweird and wonderful cults overseas
like Waco and Jonestown, etc.
They were very extreme, butpeople didn't correlate what happened
there to what was happening tous and other groups in Australia.
So there still wasn't a wordfor it.
You know, fast forward toabout 2007 when a lot of people had
(20:58):
left this, our cult.
There was people who startedspeaking up about it and that's when
they, they, you know, termedit a cult.
And my parents heard, oh yes,this is a cult.
And then they educatedthemselves by going to a cult support
group and things like that.
Back then, yeah, I was reallyon my own journey.
So at that point you came outof that week, but you did kind of
get away and you traveledoverseas for a bit and eventually
(21:22):
you ended up back.
Yes.
And you signed on to a muchlonger and intensive program.
That's correct.
Because I couldn't afford todo the year long program which was
called Personal Mastery andMetaphysical Counseling Certificate
to become a counselor.
Counselor, because my God, I know.
So, you know, I'd done lots ofcourses to become a psychic reader,
a metaphysical healer, and Iwanted to do the counseling course
(21:45):
because I wanted to be acounselor and help people and heal
people.
So that was a year long and I,I couldn't afford it at the end of
that year, after the final step.
So an opportunity through afriend of a friend came up to go
and nanny in Italy.
So I did that.
But while I was there, I wasstill completely indoctrinated.
So I was still running everyday and screaming into a face cloth.
You can imagine around Tuscanyand the vineyards and you know, me
(22:08):
running around with a clothyelling and screaming.
It was crazy.
And because I was kind ofstill on a vegan vegetarian diet,
I couldn't even enjoy all ofthe beautiful Italian Food, they
didn't really know what tofeed me.
So it was just shocking.
You know, it just shows thatit doesn't matter whether you're
at a distance from the cult.
If you are indoctrinated, youare still, you know, your, your mind
(22:32):
is completely there no matterwhere you are in the world.
So when I got back, I startedworking in a, in a public relations
firm and I stepped onto theyear long course and that was just
again, just another level.
And we had about 29 people andthere was lots of assignments, book
assignments and we had tojuice 2 liters of juice every day,
(22:54):
stick to a vegan diet, nosugar, no bread, no salt, that type
of thing.
So you're looking at fooddeprivation, sleep deprivation, because
we were running around crazilytrying to do these assignments and
pass books, books on and moreof the mind control techniques were
utilized.
By the end of that she wouldbe up at the room with her support
team at the front and it wasreally, if you can imagine Jerry
(23:16):
Springer, like she wouldpurposely create drama and issues
with the group and she wouldjust watch it and feed off that.
So that was, that's what itwas all about to her.
It was all about drama andbecause you would know with narcissism
and whether it's psychopathy,they're so dead inside and have no
emotions, no empathy.
So really they need to beentertained and get attention.
(23:38):
And that's all that she wasdoing the whole time.
So you know, it just went onand on and I completed course after
course after course and thenthings just progressed where she
was finally actually on ACurrent Affair for an accused of
being a cult leader andfinancially abusing people, etc.
And her reputation really went down.
(24:00):
And then extraordinarily shedecided to become a psychologist
in the year 2000 so that shecould rectify her reputation.
But she didn't really thinkthat through because from that point
on she had to be accountableto our, you know, it's called APRI
here, the Australian HealthPractitioner Regulation Agency.
So before she was notaccountable to anyone, you know,
(24:22):
she'd said that she was acounselor or that she was teaching
people how to counsel, butshe'd never done a counseling course.
She said that she wasqualified in alternate systems and
healing and relationshipcounseling, things like that, but
her degree was actually in agriculture.
So I think that's anotherthing that's really important for
red flags and just for thepublic to, to know about when you
(24:45):
are getting involved withanyone, whether it's a, an organization,
a group, a Meetup even a person.
Look them up online and doyour research.
Because in this day and age,no one can get away with anything.
So you will find a comment orreview or just something somewhere
(25:05):
about that particular group,person or organization.
And yeah, you just.
I think the other thing is youcan't be naive anymore and you can't
allow your children to grow up sheltered.
That is a very good point.
And going back, you didn'tnecessarily have the benefit of the
Internet like you.
You actually didn't haveaccess to Google to be able to see
(25:25):
who this person was or whatother people have said.
You only had what was right infront of you.
Right.
So that we now have a lot moreaccess to information.
I mean, still, people stillget scammed and, and get sucked into
these things.
But you were really at adisadvantage at that time.
Yes.
And then around 2007, which,if I'm not mistaken, was around when
(25:46):
the Internet was really cominginto its own.
I could be mistaken, butthat's when there was Facebook started.
Then it did.
Yeah.
So that's when some blogstarted appearing on a cult education
website.
Rick Ross, if anyone's heardabout him.
And so that's when peoplestarted just telling the truth about
this cult leader and what hadhappened to them, calling her a narcissist
(26:09):
and a psychopath and justeverything that she'd actually done,
the physical abuse, the verbalabuse, the financial abuse.
And then she ended up suing ortrying to sue those people.
So after A Current Affair, atleast half or more of her base of
cult members actuallydisappeared because they woke up.
And then her true believers,including myself, stayed with her,
(26:32):
supported her and defended her.
I ended up working for her for10 years.
And, you know, she blamed.
She used me as a scapegoat ona number of occasions.
You know, the AustralianTaxation Office came in to investigate
her and she blamed that on me.
And then I had to repay hermoney for that.
And that took about four years.
And, you know, this is where Ihope I'm not jumping ahead, but where
(26:55):
the human trafficking andslavery comes in, because that was
debt bondage and, you know,forced labor.
She didn't pay me for any ofthe work I did.
I think it's, it's great thatgovernments and authorities are now
looking at cults not only asthese, you know, extremist religious
organizations and people areidiots and they, you know, it's their
(27:15):
fault, but they're looking atit as human trafficking and slavery
because that is exactly whatthe legislation states.
What we went through was thatand unfortunately for me and my peers,
the legislation for humantrafficking, slavery, wasn't amended
until about March 2012.
(27:36):
So anyone that was a victimafter that time can really go to
the police and get, hopefully, justice.
Just while I'm on it, youknow, if anyone does escape from
a cult, don't go to the mediaand just, you know, tell them what
happened.
Please go to the authorities first.
Go to the police.
(27:56):
Report exactly what happened,all the abuse, whatever it was, financial,
psychological, sexual.
It's really important toreport it to the police first.
You did end up working for her.
You were quite keen to getmore involved into the organization.
You took a job, then shedidn't pay you, she never had the
money to pay you.
(28:16):
Yeah.
And then somehow or other shealso ended up figuring out that you
owed her money.
So you were indebted not justfor the ATO stuff, she manufactured
all of these other reasons whyyou apparently owed her money.
That's correct.
For example, she went on a skitrip with her children and her nephew,
(28:37):
and I organized it.
And then she made claims whenshe got back that I didn't book transfers
or the.
Her accommodation right on theski slopes, you know, this, that
and the other.
And so I had to pay her$10,000 for that.
So, you know, I had to pay her 5.
Just.
Yeah, just made that up.
Just.
Just decided that was worth$10,000 for a penalty.
(28:59):
Exactly.
And, you know, and people say,well, if you weren't getting paid,
you know, how are you giving her?
How did you pay her?
Yeah, so I was working secondand third jobs, so I was waitressing
or I worked at a cinema on theGold coast for four years.
Later on, I worked atMcDonald's, you know, and by the
way, at that point I thought Iwas only worthy of working at McDonald's.
She ended up buying a guesthouse and a beauty salon down at
(29:23):
Byron Bay during my time with her.
And I was cleaning the guesthouse, I was performing, you know,
massages and pedicures andthings like that.
So it was all about her.
She would go out on her boator surfboarding with her partner
at the time, and she.
It was all about us doing allthe work for her.
And she would just be rapingthe benefits financially and having
(29:44):
her free time off.
And we were just slaves.
I mean, I was working honestlyup to 22 hours a day, seven days
a week in the last few years.
There was times when I wasonly having two hours sleep and,
you know, there was a few, afew nights that I didn't have Any
sleep.
That's why I always say it'sup to 22 hours a day.
So it's, it's, it's just incredible.
I think people don't reallyunderstand how someone like myself
(30:09):
and others could actuallysurvive like this or do this.
Now the bit that you missedwas at some point that you got into
a relationship with somebodywho actually wasn't involved with
the organization.
But he did become involved.
Did he have any red flags atthe beginning or was he kind of happy?
Did he consider this to be apositive thing because you thought
(30:30):
it was a positive thing?
Like what was that?
Because you then had two kids?
Two.
Three.
Yeah, three.
Three kids.
While you were doing all ofthese jobs and work and being abused
and having no money, you alsohad children?
That's correct.
He actually had done the firstprogram, the next evolutionary stuff.
And he actually went to schoolwith a girl who was on my year long
(30:52):
course and he was living withher and that's how he knew about
the courses.
So he had actually done thefirst one.
And then, you know, I knowthat if it wasn't for me, he probably
would have left the group alot earlier and particularly after
we did have children.
You know, after every childthings escalated and he actually
left for a little while.
And a lot of the premise forwhy I was doing the courses was to
(31:15):
cleanse my cellular memory formy children and also the planet and
myself.
So once children were on thescene, that was another leverage
for the cult leader to keep us there.
And she would always tell usthat we needed to continue to evolve
for the sake of our children.
What was the turning point?
What caused you to eventually leave?
(31:38):
As I mentioned, she had beensuing a lot of people, including
three other ex members andalso my parents for defamation.
So she needed to raise fundsfor all of her legal cases.
She was under a lot ofpressure and so there wasn't too
many of us left.
But we were again working onher accounts and I was only having
(32:04):
two hours sleep a night.
I had three children by that point.
My ex husband, now he had lefttwo years before at this point and
was just sort of seeing meonce a week and the kids once a week
to help look after them.
So there was a lot of pressurefor me.
She ended up physicallybattering me again in a very frenzied
(32:25):
attack.
Like she punched me in theface, gave me a black eye.
I think it was the 27th ofDecember and then on the 29th, she
really beat the crap out of meand pinned me to the Ground and was
screaming in my face, pullingmy hair out, all that type of thing,
kicking me as she did.
And I had just really got tothe point where I just could not
cope anymore.
(32:45):
She was calling me a conartist, that I wasn't paying enough,
you know, to her and everyoneelse, and that I was conning everyone
else.
And I had got to the pointwhere just physically, spiritually,
emotionally, mentally, I couldnot cope anymore.
And you know, logically I hadworked out that I couldn't actually
(33:08):
keep going.
Like I'd always been trying tomanifest money and you know, she
got me onto the Sendlink,Single Mothers Pension and Family
Assistance, etc.
At one point.
And that money obviously wentdirectly to her.
And so I'd been on that forabout four years and then I've been
working at McDonald's andother side jobs.
But I worked out that what shewas proposing for me to give her
(33:29):
and everyone else financially,I'd only have $50 at the end of the
week for food and putting mykids into, you know, long daycare
pay for that and just thingslike that.
So logically my brain actuallyrealized I'm not going to be able
to do this anymore.
And there was just one daywhere she called me down to her house
and I thought she was going tobash me up again.
(33:52):
And she was just screaming atme and telling everyone, you know,
not to speak to me anymore.
And I was being treated like dirt.
And my children, she wasstarting to say that my children
were liars at that point.
They were eight, five and twoand a half.
And yeah, basically when Iwalked out of the house, she hadn't
physically assaulted me, but Ithought it's only a matter of time.
And I just thought, look, Ijust have to, I have to go because
(34:14):
I can't do anything.
And I just made this sort ofbet with myself and I ended up walking
down the hill thinking thateveryone would find me and follow
me, but they didn't.
And I just filled my car upwith everything and went and picked
up my three children fromdaycare and vacation care and yeah,
basically drove to my exhusband's work and just started speaking
to him.
(34:35):
And because I had made thatdecision even though I was still
indoctrinated and sort oftalking myself in, just saying, you
know, I'm gonna tell her thatI'm not gonna, you know, work through
the night.
I'm only gonna work during theday, this and the other.
But once I was with my exhusband in a safe place with my three
children within five Minutes.
(34:55):
My brain just started, youknow, wow.
Just.
I was out of that survivalmode and it just started functioning.
And I thought, oh, my God, sheis a cult leader and that is a cult.
And then that was it.
It.
So it's long and short of it.
Yeah.
I mean, there is so much thatyou haven't even mentioned to do
with the criminal activity,the money that she was illegally
(35:16):
collecting on behalf of loadsof, like, there's so much there.
People can read, get the bookif they want, all of that.
Yes.
But, Carly, when you came toyour senses basically that day and
then you left, what was theprocess for your healing to recover
from that?
It was.
It was a huge process.
(35:36):
And just the recovery forpeople who've been in a cult, it
takes years and years.
You know, some people estimatethat however long you've been in
the cult will be how long itwill take to get over it.
And, you know, I was in therefor 13 and a half years, and honestly,
not until like, five years, 10years down the track, you start to
feel normal.
First of all, you go throughthings like, you know, I caught up
(35:58):
with all of my school friendsand some uni friends that I hadn't
seen for that whole time.
And, you know, the schoolfriends, I divulged to them stuff
that had happened, and, youknow, they just look at you as if
you're like a weird creatureand don't understand anything.
And, you know, they never,ever called me back, and I never
saw them again.
So you've lost all your friends?
You know, I had a familymember that didn't speak to me for
(36:19):
three years, and then afterthat, barely spoke to me.
You know, I've tried to gettherapy a few times, and there was
one psychologist who saidabout five times, oh, look, this
is really overwhelming, youknow, overwhelming because I was
just verbally diary for likean hour.
Even psychologists, we findthat they just can't understand and
really help us because what wehave experienced is so extreme.
(36:42):
But I ended up doing emdr,which I found really good.
I did that about three timesback then, and then I ended up doing
it more after the court case.
I thought I better go back andjust tidy up just the last finishing
touches of what was going on.
And I did that about threetimes in three weeks.
And it does bring up a lot.
I really found that helpful,but it is very.
(37:03):
It just brings up everythingstraight away, and it is a lot to
deal with.
Even though I had movedthrough so much emotionally and processed
so much, for me, it brought upa lot.
So I can't imagine what itwould do.
Just a person with just some,some ptsd.
I joined a cult support groupcalled Cult Information and Family
Support kifs, which my parentshad been involved with.
And that was really helpful.
(37:25):
You get to be around people,either parents and loved ones who
have had people in a cult orstill do.
And you get to talk to ex cult members.
And I think it's really important.
That is one really big thingthat I recommend is that, you know,
no matter whether you've beenin a cult or with a narcissist or
someone like that in a gang,really hang around people and seek
(37:45):
support from those who haveexperienced it.
Yeah.
And you know, just I hadn'thad a job.
I mentioned that I worked at McDonald's.
Like when I got out of thecult, I was too scared to get a job
for almost two years and Ithought I was only, you know, I could
only work on the front counterof McDonald's.
That's how I felt.
And I, you know, had auniversity degree and had so much
(38:06):
promise at uni and afterwardsthat wasn't fulfilled.
So I had to build up my selfesteem again as far as my career
is concerned, make new friendsand which to, you know, didn't happen
too much.
And you know, I guess whenyou've been in a cult situation or
with a narcissist or apsychopath, you really don't trust
people.
(38:26):
So you have to work out how toset boundaries and learn how to do
that for the first time inyour life.
And I had believed in Jesusand God and been very religious when
I was up to 19 and then in thenew age, I was still very spiritual.
I was very spiritual the wholetime and I am now.
But I really turned away from,you know, even saying Jesus or God.
(38:46):
So that, that's a shame in away because I really was so scarred
that I cut connection evenjust with those particular words.
But now I'm sort of startingto get back to just really realizing
that everything I wentthrough, you know, cults, they will
have different themes anddifferent recruitment methods and
(39:10):
you know, they might be Biblebased groups or whatever it is.
Mine was a new age groupbecause I believed in the new age
and I still do.
So it's, it's a shame that acult leader or a narcissist will
really work on you so muchthat you lose your innate self and
you really have to try andrebuild that and rebuild those connections
(39:31):
and those beliefs again.
Yeah, yeah.
But look it, it's taken A long time.
And, you know, I guess alsogoing into the cult when I was 21,
you know, I didn't come outuntil I was 35.
So I lost all of my 20s andhalf of my 30s.
That was something that I hadto accept.
Carly, how much faith do youactually have in psychologists, given
that your cult leader iscurrently a registered psychologist
(39:53):
in Australia and stillregistered with ahpra?
Exactly.
I, I mean, I don't want to sayanything too bad, certainly don't
think I can be sued fordefamation for this, but I don't
have faith in ahpra.
My cult leader is actuallyalso registered with the HCPC in
the uk and I've communicated with.
(40:13):
I did write a book about myexperiences and self published it
in 2017.
And then I was subsequentlysued for defamation and I spent over
six years defending myself.
And I went to trial fromSeptember to December 2023, and I
stood up in the court and ranthe whole trial myself.
(40:34):
It was over 10 weeks and onthe 1st of March, I ended up winning
the court case with.
With 12 imputations ruledabsolutely true, and 4 imputations
ruled substantially true.
And it was a scathing judgmentof the cult leader and that the Supreme
Court judge called her anarrant liar and a cult leader.
And she ended up appealing.
(40:54):
And obviously I wasresearching all of the law myself.
I only spoke to a couple oflawyers very briefly at either end
of the court case.
And, you know, I just happenedupon the legislation about that you
can get an appeal dismissedfor want of prosecution if you know
it's prejudiced against thedefendant or if she's taking too
much time.
And there was a couple ofother things.
(41:14):
And miraculously, after threeand a half months, I got the appeal
dismissed.
And that was on the 8th of July.
And so both those judgmentsagainst the cult leader I sent to
APRA and the hcpc and they'vehardly corresponded with me at all.
And basically I believe thatthey're waiting for a criminal verdict.
You know, I've handed over allof my evidence to the Australian
(41:36):
Federal Police.
I was very determined to speakthe truth and seek justice because
no one had managed to do it.
She had sued multiple organizations.
Had she?
Yeah, and, you know, myparents and ex cult members as well
as university and, you know, ACurrent Affair, et cetera.
So she'd been extremely litigious.
For some reason, I felt like Ihad the balls to take her to court
(42:00):
and win, and I did.
At the end, after I won theappeal, you know, I was still determined
to take it right to the end, criminally.
But really I've had to juststep back and, and say, you know,
it's up to the police now.
It's up to AHPRA and the HCPCto do their job.
I mean, the Supreme Courtjudge and the Chief justice have
(42:20):
stated that it's absolutelytrue that she battered myself and
others, incited others tobatter others, that she committed
sexual assault, that she is acriminal even.
It's substantially true thatshe's a violent extremist, that she's
likely to suffer fromnarcissistic and borderline personality
disorder.
There were some big thingsthat I proved.
(42:42):
So surely an absolutely truestatement is as good as beyond reasonable
doubt.
But AHPRA and the HCPC havenot taken action and she is still
able to practice as apsychologist in both Australia and
the uk.
I just need to have a littlechuckle about that.
I mean, to be honest, Carly,I'm a psychologist and the fear that
exists among, among thepsychology profession.
(43:02):
I mean, like, people areterrified that any little thing that
they do, they're going to getcalled up to.
Ah, that's why I had as acontextual imputation that she's
likely to be a psychopath,because she had put in her imputations,
in her statement of claimthat, you know, I reduced her reputation,
stating that she's likely tosuffer from narcissism and borderline
personality disorder.
(43:22):
I put in the contextualimputation that she's likely to be
a psychopath.
The judge actually put in hisjudgment that she definitely has
a psychological disorder,whether it be, you know, narcissism
or, you know, psychopathy,that type of thing.
He actually put it in thejudgment, you know, even that as
far as APRA's concerned, youknow, I know, with their laws, Section
(43:44):
51, I think it is, that ifthey have some sort of personality
disorder or they're acriminal, that they should be struck
off.
But it still hasn't happened.
Effy, many people who havesimilar experience to what you had
when they come out, like, theynever talk about it, there's a level
of shame involved.
But you've been really open.
Has it been.
Do you think that's beenhelpful for you to talk about it
(44:07):
and get your story out there?
Yeah, it's interesting becauseas I mentioned, I was an executive
assistant and I nevermentioned it to anyone right up until
I was about to publish my book.
So I always kept it hiddenfrom my work colleagues.
I definitely wanted to tellthe truth about her because I was
always a person, even in thecult that told the truth.
(44:30):
And even though I did some.
What would be deemed horriblethings in the cult myself, I was
prepared to wear that becauseI know that I was indoctrinated,
and it probably wouldn't havehappened if I wasn't in the cult,
and I had to wear the factthat things might come back against
me.
But I was prepared to betotally truthful and honest so that
(44:53):
I could tell the entire truthabout the cult leader and what happened
in the culture.
When people are going toexpose someone else, they have to
be prepared for any backlashagainst them.
And I just believed so much intelling the truth about her because
for years and years, like,over 20, 30 years now, people have
been trying to tell the truth,but she's been trying to censor them
(45:15):
with litigation.
So, as I said, I don't knowwhy, but for some reason, I just
felt like I had the courageand the boldness to take her on,
because innately, I've hadthat strength.
I mean, funnily enough, duringthe courses, you get to know what
your name means.
And my name, Kali, meansstrong woman and free woman.
And it's funny because I usethings like, you know, the goddess,
(45:37):
Indian goddess Kali.
Throughout the court case, Ihad a picture of Kali up on the wall.
And during the trial, I was,for the first time, calling on, you
know, archangel Michael andJesus Christ and God and relying
on all of whatever I hadaccess to to get me through that,
because every day, I had toface her from memory.
I think I cr her on the standfor 17 days.
(45:58):
Oh, my God.
So I know.
And.
And we'd moved into a largercourtroom, into a small courtroom,
so she was literally, like, ameter and a half away from me.
And I had to face this womanwho had.
Wow.
Basically persecuted me for 13and a half years and bashed the shit
out of me.
I had to face her, and I hadto question her and.
And listen to her lie.
Absolutely.
(46:19):
Oh, that was just the major thing.
Like, luckily, my mom actuallywent, and she was there with me every
single day for.
We were down in Hobart forthree months, and we just could not
get over how much she lied andexaggerated, like, it was just beyond
a joke.
But that was great because,you know, I knew that I had to ask
her questions about things and then.
(46:40):
And get her to lie, and then Iwould bring out the actual evidence.
And that's what actually wonme this court case, is because I'm.
I'm an executive assistant,and I have kept her.
Yeah, I used all myorganizational abilities and all
the evidence I had, I'd kept everything.
So I had the evidence.
And.
And that's why, you know, Iknow a lot of people don't win their
cases is because they don'thave enough evidence.
(47:02):
You know, you're relying onwhat people say and reputation and
how they come across in the courtroom.
But I had tendered over 400documents and videos and audio.
So, yeah, good on you.
Good on you.
So, I mean, to representyourself and then face her.
I am conscious of the time.
But I did want to say, too,like you, you got out of the cult.
(47:23):
You would think that is thestep where you start to.
That's the point where you canstart just getting on with your life.
But like you said, she hascontinued in her capacity now as
a psychologist, has eventhreatened to report you to children's
services, to have yourchildren taken away.
Like, she basically continuesto try to exert whatever influence
(47:43):
and power she has to controlyou, even once you're out.
That's correct.
She used the tool of wheneveranyone escaped because she knew they
would go to the police, shewent to the police first.
So whenever anyone left, shewould report them to the police for
either stealing or beingabusive to their kids, that type
of thing.
That's why it's reallyimportant when anyone has had physical,
(48:07):
sexual, financial abuse to goand report it to the police.
And see, I didn't even reportit until after the newspaper articles
came out.
I don't even know why.
It's ridiculous.
Like, we just think that weshould just either get on with our
lives or we'll go to the media first.
It's crazy.
You need to report everythingthat happens to you.
And here's where the educationcomes in.
(48:28):
You know, you need to realizethat no one is allowed to physically
hurt you, sexually hurt you,financially hurt you, coerce you,
be misleading and coerce youto do something or say something
that you don't really want to.
Yeah.
It is up to parents and thecommunity to educate everyone, and
particularly our childrenabout the types of people that are
(48:50):
out in our community.
And yeah, when somethinghappens, to just report it.
Carly, I really appreciate youtaking the time to talk to me today.
I'm sure it's not easy to talkabout it all over again, but I'm
really in awe to be honest andappreciate you telling your story
to help other people and toeducate other people.
(49:12):
Credit to you.
Thank you.
Thanks very much, Cass.
Thank you so much.
Crabby to Happy is created andproduced by me, Cass Dunn.
If you enjoy the show Pleasehit the follow button wherever you
listen to ensure you nevermiss an episode.
Share with a friend to get meinto the ears of more lovely listeners
and I would love for you toleave a five star rating and review.
Thank you so much for beinghere and I cannot wait to catch you
(49:33):
next week for another fabulousepisode of Cracker To.
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