March 4, 2025 • 28 mins
After experiencing a traumatic emergency cesarean with her first child at just 28 weeks, Rikki Lee Calleja shares how her healing VBAC birth experience with daughter Lily five years later was so transformative, it inspired her to become a doula herself.
Through education, determination and support from her husband and doula, Rikki's successful vaginal birth after cesarean became a pivotal moment that helped her overcome past trauma and discover her incredible strength.
Diary Of A Birth features mums telling their miraculous stories of bringing life into the world. If you’d like to share your birth story, we’d love to hear from you at podcast@mamamia.com.au or send us a voice note here.
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CREDITS:
Host: Ksenija Lukich
Birth Story: Rikki Lea Calleja
Obstetrician & Gynaecologist: Dr Pat
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The Kick Ep 34. What is a VBAC (vaginal birth after caesarean) and is it for you?
Producers: Ksenija Lukich & Lee Stamps
Audio Producer: Leah Porges
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I'm Cassanu lu Kitsch and this is diary of a birth.
We all know that motherhood changes you physically, mentally, even
the chemical makeup of our brain. Today's mum had a
traumatic first birth, but when she fell pregnant with her
second five years later, she was determined to do it
(01:05):
on her own terms.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I wanted to make the choice to try and do
things differently, and I really wanted to have a vaginal birth,
so I opted for what's called a vback of vaginal
birth after cesarean.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
And what happened next was a transformative experience that led
to a drastic career change in a piece and a
beautiful story. So let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Hi, my name's Ricky Lee Kalia and this is the
story of my birth with Lily.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Obviously we know each other, but I've always really loved
your story because it's just a really positive one. So
let's sort of start with what life was like before
you fell pregnant with Lily.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know, before I fell pregnant with Lily, she was
definitely my surprise baby. I had a almost five year
old at the time to a previous relationship, so I
kind of was ready to, you know, embark on my career.
He was about to start school, and life was good.
It was busy, but you know, when I found out
that I was pregnant with Lily, it was definitely a surprise,
(02:13):
particularly because I'd had quite a different birth experience with Henry.
I hadn't really put on the radar that I was
going to have more children. To be honest, it wasn't
off the cards, but it certainly wasn't something that was
a point of discussion.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
So tell us a little bit about your birth with Henry,
because I know that that was really difficult for you.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, look, it was just really unexpected. The pregnancy itself
was going really well, but I got to about twenty
eight weeks and my waters broke. So it was more
that I wasn't prepared for anything unexpected, and it turned
into an emergency cesarean and I had him at twenty
eight weeks and we experienced, you know, Niku not being
able to bring him home from the hospital. So I
(02:54):
spent you know, a couple of months of going to
and from the hospital to see him. It was confronting
at the time, but I look at it that everything
happens for a reason, and I'm one of the very
blessed people that had an incredibly healthy, strong boy he's
now thirteen. I do see it as not a blessing,
but everything happens for a reason. It was tough at
the time, but we did get through it, but it
(03:16):
definitely did alter I guess the want to have more
children after or you know, it takes time to process
and to wonder if that's going to happen again, and
that anxiety that carries you if you're ever thinking about
having more children.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
So it was a pretty traumatic berth with Henry because
he was so early.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So early, so early, we had to consider injections to
speed up the health of his lungs. They explained that
he is very likely to not be breathing when he
comes out, that I wouldn't be able to hold him,
that I would not be able to see him straight away,
obviously I would have been coming back from post op.
We also found out the next day that we nearly
lost him on the first night as well, So you know,
(03:57):
there were a lot of really contributing factors to the
stress of of that time. Had a lot of support
around me during that and I was one of the
first out of all of my friends to have children
at that time too, so a lot of people didn't
really know what I was going through, but they were
all there for me. But yeah, it was a really
intense time.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Okay, so you had Henry. Henry is four years old,
You're in a new relationship ship, and you feel pregnant.
What's your first thought.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I'll be honest, I cried in the bathroom. You know,
we weren't quite prepared to have a little one. Again,
very blessed, and I know that there's a lot of
people out there who go through a huge amount of
effort and what their body goes through with IPF and
difficulties falling pregnant, but in my instance, I wasn't prepared
to have another one at that point, and obviously I
knew I wanted to keep the pregnancy, but at the
(04:45):
same time, it was coming to terms with how this
pregnancy is going to look. What if this complication is
like the last one. So it just brought up a
lot of questions for me. There wasn't a question of
not continuing the pregnancy. It was just adjusting to the
fact that we were having a pregnancy without planning it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And a bit of fear from you as well.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Absolutely. I mean it's been almost five years between, or
four and a half years between, but you still carry
all of the I still hear all the beeps from Niku,
and I still remember everything that I'd gone through with Henry.
So you absolutely replay it all over in your head again,
and obviously you want the best outcome. But there were
no reasons on why that happened for me. So because
I didn't have an answer, it makes you wonder what
(05:23):
was happening with my body, Like was my body going
to do the same thing again? For sure?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
So you have a relatively normal pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
With Lily, Yeah, I was hit with pretty significant morning
sickness almost the entire way through. I used to carry
a little bag in the car with me and I
was doing a lot of little vomits in the car unfortunately.
But other than that, I made it to full term.
I was still classed as a high risk pregnancy, but
the pregnancy itself went really well. I just learned to
(05:52):
ask a lot of questions. I decided to really educate
myself more so this time about what I wanted my
birth to look like and just have something to aspire to.
I really, even though there were no options at the
time when I had Henry, it was what needed to
happen happened, you know, there were no choices for me
to have a vaginal birth in that moment. That was
(06:13):
what needed to happen to keep him alive. But given
that everything was looking fantastic with this pregnancy, I wanted
to make the choice to try and do things different,
and I really wanted to have a vaginal birth, so
I opted for what's called a vback, a vaginal birth
after cesarean, and I basically spent my time learning and
finding the best way and the best support people to
(06:33):
help me to get that.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
What made you decide to seek out a doula.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Was my husband, actually my now husband, and I when
we fell pregnant and we were talking about, you know,
my fears around that birth. He said to me, let's
hire a doula, and I said, what's a duola, Like,
I'm sure there's a lot of people that wouldn't have known,
And I actually didn't know what a doula was at
the time, and then he went on to explain that
it's a birth support person who can help educate you
(06:59):
and be there to support you during that birth throughout
your pregnancy as well. So again started doing my research
and we hired a dolla. So she was amazing throughout
that experience. She definitely kept me calm even leading up
to my birth with someone that I could talk to
that wasn't you know, you talk to your friends when
you're going through things, but when you have someone that's
(07:20):
you're paying them to be in your corner and they're
not talking to anyone else, there's no little sideline chats
and people checking in all the time. It's just that
one person, that continuity of care that you have with
someone and you build a bond as well. So you know,
I build a relationship with her leading up to my birth,
so I felt completely comfortable with her being in my
birth space as well.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
How far in advance does a dueler start to kind
of help you out in a birth.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It varies with Nadine. When I had her, I had
booked her quite early on, but really the help comes
when you're getting to the closer part of your birth.
You can obviously message a dueler at any point if
you're concerned, but at the end of the day, a
dueler isn't medical, so I can definitely talk to about
my feelings. She can give me words of support and encouragement,
but if there was anything that was a medical concern,
(08:06):
she would naturally give me advice based on talking to
a doctor. Her care came more into play leading up
to the birth of Lily, so when my waters broke,
letting her know that was happening, she'd come visit me
at the house. You know, duelers will help you labor
at home before you transferred to hospital if you're choosing
to have a hospital birth. In fact, even if it's
a cesarean, they'll be there when you're ready for them
(08:27):
to be there to give you that support. It's like
having a sister in your corner as well as your partner.
If you have a partner coming up.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Ricky goes into labor with a splash.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So tell me about going into labor you said that
you've got to full term.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Well, I call it full term considering it was twenty
eight weeks with Henry. I got to thirty seven, just
over thirty seven weeks, So in my mind when I
got to thirty seven weeks, I was like, I'm cooked,
Like I felt well and truly ready to have that baby.
It was the middle of February that was very hot,
and I was one of the statistics where it was
a big gush Like people assume in the movies that
everyone has the water's breaking and it just really breaks
(09:06):
on the floor, but that doesn't happen for most people.
It did for me. I had the big oh, my gosh,
my waters have definitely broken.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Were you in a supermarket?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I wasn't. I was actually in my kitchen doorway, so
I was at home, thank goodness. But yeah, I had
that proper water breaking situation. But interestingly for me, I
didn't actually go into labor, so my water's broke. I
didn't go into labor. I rocked around on a fitball
for twenty four hours and nothing happened. Went to the hospital,
(09:34):
made sure bub was okay, and made the decision to
go back home and wait longer. Everyone's got their own,
you know, sort of personal choices that they make in
those moments. It's different when you've had a cesarean before,
so if you're pushing for a v back, it's a
very different situation where you really need to arm yourself
with lots of knowledge. The dueler helped me. I decided
(09:55):
to go home. Some people may not have done that,
but it was that, or it was booking in for
a cesarean that day.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
How adamant were you about not having another cesarean look
like anything?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And I'm a realist. No birth is going to be
the same, and you can't dictate. You could say all
you want, I want a home birth, or I want
a vaginal birth, or I want a V back. I
really wanted that vback. I knew that it was going
to be healing for me, but I also knew that
in life, some things just pivot, and I was willing
to pivot my plan. But I wanted to know that
I'd walked away giving it everything I could. So I
(10:27):
went with signing myself out at the hospital for another
twenty four hours, and I promised myself that I'd give
at that time, but I would never put my baby
or myself at risk. So by day three, I took
myself to the hospital. I was on a clock. I
had till six pm that night to have my baby
or they were booking me in for a cesarean.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Were you having regular contractions at this point? Do they
need to give you anything to help that alone?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I had absolutely no contractions. I was doing lots of
talking and moving and trying all the things. I had
not a single twinge of a contraction. I was very
lucky that the obstetrician that was on that day, his
name was doctor Bissert's. He's a huge advocate for v
backs in our hospital. He was on. He was one
hundred percent in my corner. When you've had a v back,
you actually aren't meant to have any kind of interference,
(11:11):
any inductions because it can be a risk for rupture.
Given that there was almost five years between my two,
we made a little bit of a connection on negotiation
and he agreed to allow me to have a slight induction,
And between having that induction, that's where I pivoted. I
went to agreeing to being monitored. I agreed to other
(11:32):
things that in my original plan I had never wanted
to do, but that was what I needed to do
to get the outcome that I wanted, and I had
her within three hours after that.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Did you have like oxytocin or did you have the TA? Yeah,
you have the oxytopcin, just.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
The smallest amount to alleviate any risk of rupture. I
had a very small amount and that's all I needed
and that was at about three o'clock in the afternoon,
and I had her at six eighteen that evening.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Did you have any medication? No, so was the choice
to not have medication part of healing that previous trauma.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I deeally didn't want any medical intervention. And then when
I had the oxytocin, I realized that it was happening
so quickly that, to be honest, I don't think I
would have had time. It was fast and furious, from
the moment that went in and within three and a
half hours from no dilation to having a baby in
my arms, there wouldn't have been any time, so I
(12:24):
just went with it.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Tell us about what your Duela did for you.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Honestly, I don't think I actually would have had the
outcome without her, and of course my husband. But you know,
even in that moment where my water's broke, you know,
your natural urge is to call the hospital, like my
water's a broken, called the hospital, tell them. But obviously
the moment that you call up your hospital, you are
on a clock. So again she's not medical, but she
did sort of say, you don't need to tell them yet,
(12:49):
like we can just see how things play out at home.
So that's what I did. When we went to the hospital.
She was there with me. So in that conversation that
happened with an obstetrician that was on that day where
they said okay, and they had their check board out
and they said, let'sook your in for cesarian today. You're
obviously not going into labor. I was able to have
a quiet conversation with her and my husband. She was
able to bring me back down and you know, encourage
(13:09):
me to make choices for myself, not based on you know,
what someone's telling me to do. Weigh up the risks,
weigh up the benefits, and she was a big part
of what helped me to make the decision to go
home and wait a little bit longer.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So you're in the hospital, the duel is there. You've
had a little bit of oxytocin. You're having all of
a sudden, very intense.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Contractions, really intense contractions. And the funny thing was I
could not stop smiling. Cassenya. Birth is hard, like anyone
that's gone through labor and birth, like, it's not easy,
but you know we can do it. But I was
just so excited that things were moving along. She helped
me with pressure points. She guided my husband into what
he could do to help me throughout that as well.
So it's the other thing. You know, they're there to
(13:50):
help partner support too. It's not like they take over
the partner. It's funny. I felt like she wasn't even
in the room and it was all my husband and
that's how it should be. But she played a huge
role in that birth experience, and you know, it's a
voice of reason as well, right like when you've got
It's bit like when you get on a flight and
if there's turbulence and you look over and you're checking
if the air hostess is a calm and you're like, okay,
(14:11):
they're all calm, so that means that everything's okay. It's
a little bit like that with a duela. You've got
someone in the room, who's calm, someone that's been through
it before, and someone that knows what's going on. And
I think, help my husband, which in turn helps me
because that energy circulates through the room.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Lily is coming, Lily is standing, Are you in the bath?
Are you sitting?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I was loud, so there was a lot of moaning,
deep guttural moaning. Again, it came on quickly. Most women
do start to make a lot of noise at the
end of their birth, but because mine was so fast,
it was pretty much from the get go. Hats off
to long labor women, because you know, I got to
that three hour mark and I was like, how much longer?
(14:51):
It's intense, And it's intense when you for anyone that's
had anything to help them, like an induction, it is
a different speed at which you labor, so, especially when
you've had the pictosal, the artificial oxytocin, that definitely speeds
things up a lot faster than what your body's ready for,
so the pain or the discomfort can be a lot
more intense than when you're sort of laboring naturally. I
(15:14):
was always on all fours and over a ball, and
then just when they said that they could see her head.
They suggested that I kind of come up leaning up
over a bed and yeah, arms up, like arms up
and leaning over and when she came out, I got
to catch her. They sort of handed her up into me. Yeah,
and I was just so happy. Yeah, it was amazing.
(15:34):
It was the best experience. I do it again. But
that ship sailed.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
This is something that I really want to sort of
focus on, is the fact that this was healing for you.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
It was so healing, it was you know, it still
lights me up. I'm so grateful to have been able
to see what my body was capable of and to
actually be able to you know, there are people who
choose to have a plant s's area, and there are
people who choose to have whatever way they want to
birth their baby. But I really wanted that. I really
(16:05):
wanted to be able to see if my body could
do it. I felt like my body had failed me
the last time. I thought that it was me and
that's why I had him so early. So to get
to full term, to be able to have that vaginal birth,
to do everything that I could have done to get that,
I felt like I was a superhero. I walked out
of there going I can take on the world. And
(16:27):
I feel like I've carried that with me all the
way through now, like it's changed me as a person,
Like it's made me realize I can really do anything.
That's genuinely how I feel. Even talking about it makes
me like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Let's go. And what about your husband? How did he
feel about it?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
He was my rock. He was amazing, and he was
just he really wanted it for me as well. Again,
like he actually had more knowledge around duelers and birth
than I did, which was kind of funny. But you know,
he was just there supporting every single decision I made.
He just backed me. So you know, there was no oh,
we should listen to the doctor. They've suggested you have
a ceseri end. Today, it was what do you want
to do? How do you feel I want you to
(17:03):
make the decisions? And so he just empowered me even more.
You know, I had these people in my corner who
were lifting me the whole way and saying you can
do this. So I was just really really lucky.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Was there any moment where they were like, we need
to take you for a Caesar. No.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I knew that we'd made the agreement that if I
had not had her by six o'clock that night that
they'd had already pre booked me in for a cesaian
that evening. Like we've got to remember, I'd been three
days with my waters broken as well, so you know,
there are risks to infection if your waters are broken
for too long a time. So I was very aware
that I needed to make sure that I was okay
and that my baby was okay. So, you know, leading
(17:39):
up that day, spending at hospital where I'm trying to
bring on labor and my doll is doing ACTR pressure
points and all the things, like, I was emotional. I
was mourning the thought that I was probably not going
to get the birth that I wanted. And then everything
changed when we had a really strong conversation with the
obstetrician that was on that day. He really wanted me
to have that v back just as much as I did.
I was lucky that I had the obstetrician I had,
(18:01):
and it just went in my favor, you know, he
agreed to putting the drip in and it changed the
trajectory of my birth outcome.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
There's a lot of people that want to have a feeback,
but there are obviously like those risks with it. What
did they tell you about the risks of having a feedback?
Speaker 1 (18:18):
I mean the risks of the closer you are your
previous birth, the more serious the risks are. So say
i'd had my first birth a year before, there would
have been no chance that I would have been able
to have any kind of inductions. But because there was
five years between, it's all about the scarring. So risks
in hospital will tell you that you're at risk of
a rupture because you've had quite significant abdominal surgery, which
(18:41):
is what a cesarean is. So if you're doing that
too close to the next birth, they say that there's
a risk of a rupture. So again I just say
that it's all about doing your research and finding what
feels right for you, not just going to a medical
provider and letting them dictate. Absolutely hear it and listen
to all of the information and then go home and
do your research and make a decision on what feels
(19:04):
right for you. Ask questions, because that is the biggest part.
It's all about rupture, which can obviously cause hemorrhaging and
that then can be life threatening.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Because of this healing experience of having Lily, you decided
that being a duller was what you wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Why, there were big parts to it. It wasn't just
about the birth. Anyone that's had two children can tell
you that no two postpartums are the same either. I
think when I had Lily, I had you know this
hear me raw experience. But when I came home it
was really difficult, you know, like I was still on
cloud nine, but no sleep. Plus you know, dealing with
(19:39):
a five year old who was just having all the
emotions of starting school. You know, there was a lot
going on when I came home, and no one prepared
me for life with two. No one does, no one can.
And I found that in itself difficult too. So part
of wanting to become a dueler wasn't just around the birth.
It was actually around supporting mothers in their postpartum. It's
been a few years now, but I do a lot
of work with women who just come home with their
(20:01):
baby too. So we place all this emphasis on our
birth and all the education. I'm like, I'm so about it, obviously,
as you can tell, I'm really big on educating yourself
for your birth. But it doesn't end there. It actually
continues on when you go home with that baby, And
I think a lot of people put all the emphasis
on the birth and then they get home and go,
(20:22):
oh my god, what am I meant to do now?
So what I decided was that I wanted to come
into a place of education and supporting women in birth,
but also helping them when they get home that first
twelve weeks, helping them navigate and learn to really lean
into that intuition everything that they wanted in their birth,
you know, lean into that intuition, and to learn to
have the confidence as a mother now as well. So, yeah,
(20:45):
I'm loving it.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
After you had Henry, did you ever think that that
would be the path for you?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Absolutely not. I'd had many different roles and I was
working in events and really late nights and living that
kind of life, and I would have never thought that
this would have been a role for me. But I
went and studied, and I thought I would study it,
not necessarily as a career, but just to see dip
my toe in. And the moment I walked into the
room of the college that I went to, it was
(21:11):
like a whole body experience. All the hair stood up
on my body and I went this is where I
meant to be.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
It's funny because we know each other from beforehand, and
I think there is this like preconception that if you
have a dueler, then you have to have like an
unmedicated birth. It's like a bit woo woo. But when
we're talking, you were like, this is not what it's like.
It's a support for mum.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
That's right. This is a support in birth, pregnancy, postpartum
for the mother. So if it's your birth, it's I mean,
I support women who have plan cesareans. There may be
a whole reason why they want that plan cesarian, but
that's their choice. And if they're choosing that, then my
support comes down to maybe in hospital care or helping
them in their recovery period when they go. It's not
(21:56):
about trying to chastise a woman for the decisions that
she makes. It's actually about empowering them with the decision
that they've made. So there's a big difference. And there's
a lot of noise in the birth and postpartum world
at the moment. And you know, I'm loving the movement
around home birth and learning about it, but it's around
educating yourself first. So educate yourself and if you come
(22:17):
to the conclusion that this type of birth is for me,
then that is the birth for you. And that's what
I'm there for, is to actually empower someone not to
feel guilty. We carry enough guilt as mothers. You don't
need to be guilty from the moment that you decide
how you want to birth your child.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Was there a moment during labor with Lily where you
were like, screw this, just give.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Me this Casar, No, not once you know what, it's
a different pain. And again, anyone that's gone through like
you've done it and you think, oh my gosh, I'm
never gonna be able to do that again, and then
you think, oh my gosh, I could totally do that again.
It ends, you know, and at the end of it
is the biggest gift of all. It's your baby. You
work the hardest you've ever worked in your life. You're
the one that's completely doing it yourself. And the gift
(22:58):
at the end of all of that hard work like
running a marathon. You know, I've run that marathon, and
here's the gift, Like, here's my prize. Do you know what?
The only time that I got frustrated was when my
music stopped. My playlist had stopped. I was obsessed with
having sound in the room and it stopped, and I
ended up part way through like just give it to me,
give me the speaker, and I ended up getting on
the phone and fixing up the Spotify.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, and how is your recovery?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Oh amazing. There's a photo of me the next day
with my slip walking out with my baby, like I
did that.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
You left the next day.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, couldn't wait to get home to the kids and
you know, my husband. So yeah, when I was out
the next day.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Wow, that sounds like it was just a really beautiful
experience for you.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah. I feel really blessed that I was able to
experience that, because I know there's some people that do
go for a vback or have a different hope and
it doesn't happen. But you know, it was a really
beautiful outcome for me.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
You kind of had the perfect birth. I really did.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
It was amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
What would you say to people who have had a
really traumatic birthing experience.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
You know, I've had many clients who've had first time
traumatic berths, and I think it's really important to really
talk about it. I was surprised at the amount of
people who hold it in, who don't really sit and
open up and share it, even with their partners. They
hold it in and they carry it and it's like
a dead weight on their body and it's something that
needs to come out, whether that's with therapy, whether that's
(24:25):
with your partner. You can even hire people like Adula
who will just do birth debriefs. My recommendation is to
really talk about it because a lot of people carry
a lot of guilt around blaming themselves for that birth,
or it could be about blaming someone else, It could
be to do with a birth trauma, from an incident
at the hospital, whatever it might be. But really talking
(24:45):
about it because like any trauma, you have to face it.
You can't bury that, you can't put it down and
hope that it will go away because it's always going
to live there. So yeah, that would be my advice
is to really find someone that you can lean on
and open up to so that you can actually move
through it. It never goes away, but you can live
with it and it will hopefully help you if you
do choose to have more children, to be able to
(25:06):
have a better experience when you.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Do maybe I'm biased, but Rickie's story gives me such
a warm, fuzzy feeling. I was curious, though, so what
are the medical implications of a vback? This week we
have the expert input of host of the Kick Pregnancy
podcast and resident obstetrition and kind ecologist, doctor Pat.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think that a v back is not a difficult
thing necessarily to have. The thing that we like to
really look at when someone's interested in a v back
or a toll ackus it's also called is essentially does
the woman actually want it? Sometimes people say no, no, thank you,
I'll just have another section for various reasons, and of
(25:52):
course that's fine. So first hurdle I guess is whether
the woman wants the v back. And then the second
thing we tend to do is have a look at
making an early assessment of suitability, and sometimes that comes
down to looking at things like what were the exact
circumstances of the cesarean section for the first labor, what
does that tell us about how the second one might go?
(26:16):
And then what are the circumstances of the current pregnancy are?
Make sure there's no reason why the current baby shouldn't
be born vaginally. Something serious like placenta preview might be
a major problem. And then in terms of getting it organized,
I think that most obstetricians would be in favor of
vback if the woman has met those sort of criteria.
(26:39):
And we like our vbacks to take place in the
hospital if things change quickly, we need to be able
to respond quickly. And the other thing I think that's
super important with vbacks is education. So we really want
our vback patients to be well informed and really up
to date on the risks and benefits, but also on
(27:01):
how the labor would want to unfold for us to
be really happy with the v back continuing. I often
say to my patients that if it's going poorly, I
want that to be as obvious to you as it
is to me. When we've got that education there, you
know there's no real surprises on the day, and the
success rate is for vback in the right candidate.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I also love Ricky's message of encouraging a symbiosis between
obs and duellers. Here's what doctor Patter has to say
about working as a team.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
I'm always welcoming within my practice to a patient who
wants to have a dueler with her and I think
that can work extremely well. There's absolutely no reason in
the private obstetric sector why we can't have a duler present.
If the woman feels strongly that she wants that additional
support in labor, then I think we should be doing
(27:53):
everything we can to make that work. Often in the
private sector, the woman has chosen her obstetrician because she
feels that that person the obstetrician is providing some of
that support and is intending to support the birth in
the way that the woman wants it supported, and that
(28:13):
might be why there's less dulas involved in the private
In the public sector, where the people looking after you
in labor are rarely the people you've seen for the
antenatal care, and they may well be people that you
haven't met at all, then there's probably more demand for
ADULA to come in with that woman to help support
(28:35):
her and to help advocate for the birth that she wants.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Casenulu Kitch
with expert input from doctor pat This week, we'd love
to hear from you. We've created a survey in the
show notes for your participation. We've also got four fifty
dollars gift vouchers up for grabs, so tell us what
you think. This episode was produced by Lee Stamps and
myself CASSANNUELU Kitch, with audio production by Leah Paugus,
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I'm Cassanu lu Kitsch and this is diary of a birth.
We all know that motherhood changes you physically, mentally, even
the chemical makeup of our brain. Today's mum had a
traumatic first birth, but when she fell pregnant with her
second five years later, she was determined to do it
(01:05):
on her own terms.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I wanted to make the choice to try and do
things differently, and I really wanted to have a vaginal birth,
so I opted for what's called a vback of vaginal
birth after cesarean.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
And what happened next was a transformative experience that led
to a drastic career change in a piece and a
beautiful story. So let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Hi, my name's Ricky Lee Kalia and this is the
story of my birth with Lily.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Obviously we know each other, but I've always really loved
your story because it's just a really positive one. So
let's sort of start with what life was like before
you fell pregnant with Lily.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know, before I fell pregnant with Lily, she was
definitely my surprise baby. I had a almost five year
old at the time to a previous relationship, so I
kind of was ready to, you know, embark on my career.
He was about to start school, and life was good.
It was busy, but you know, when I found out
that I was pregnant with Lily, it was definitely a surprise,
(02:13):
particularly because I'd had quite a different birth experience with Henry.
I hadn't really put on the radar that I was
going to have more children. To be honest, it wasn't
off the cards, but it certainly wasn't something that was
a point of discussion.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
So tell us a little bit about your birth with Henry,
because I know that that was really difficult for you.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, look, it was just really unexpected. The pregnancy itself
was going really well, but I got to about twenty
eight weeks and my waters broke. So it was more
that I wasn't prepared for anything unexpected, and it turned
into an emergency cesarean and I had him at twenty
eight weeks and we experienced, you know, Niku not being
able to bring him home from the hospital. So I
(02:54):
spent you know, a couple of months of going to
and from the hospital to see him. It was confronting
at the time, but I look at it that everything
happens for a reason, and I'm one of the very
blessed people that had an incredibly healthy, strong boy he's
now thirteen. I do see it as not a blessing,
but everything happens for a reason. It was tough at
the time, but we did get through it, but it
(03:16):
definitely did alter I guess the want to have more
children after or you know, it takes time to process
and to wonder if that's going to happen again, and
that anxiety that carries you if you're ever thinking about
having more children.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
So it was a pretty traumatic berth with Henry because
he was so early.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So early, so early, we had to consider injections to
speed up the health of his lungs. They explained that
he is very likely to not be breathing when he
comes out, that I wouldn't be able to hold him,
that I would not be able to see him straight away,
obviously I would have been coming back from post op.
We also found out the next day that we nearly
lost him on the first night as well, So you know,
(03:57):
there were a lot of really contributing factors to the
stress of of that time. Had a lot of support
around me during that and I was one of the
first out of all of my friends to have children
at that time too, so a lot of people didn't
really know what I was going through, but they were
all there for me. But yeah, it was a really
intense time.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Okay, so you had Henry. Henry is four years old,
You're in a new relationship ship, and you feel pregnant.
What's your first thought.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I'll be honest, I cried in the bathroom. You know,
we weren't quite prepared to have a little one. Again,
very blessed, and I know that there's a lot of
people out there who go through a huge amount of
effort and what their body goes through with IPF and
difficulties falling pregnant, but in my instance, I wasn't prepared
to have another one at that point, and obviously I
knew I wanted to keep the pregnancy, but at the
(04:45):
same time, it was coming to terms with how this
pregnancy is going to look. What if this complication is
like the last one. So it just brought up a
lot of questions for me. There wasn't a question of
not continuing the pregnancy. It was just adjusting to the
fact that we were having a pregnancy without planning it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
And a bit of fear from you as well.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Absolutely. I mean it's been almost five years between, or
four and a half years between, but you still carry
all of the I still hear all the beeps from Niku,
and I still remember everything that I'd gone through with Henry.
So you absolutely replay it all over in your head again,
and obviously you want the best outcome. But there were
no reasons on why that happened for me. So because
I didn't have an answer, it makes you wonder what
(05:23):
was happening with my body, Like was my body going
to do the same thing again? For sure?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
So you have a relatively normal pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
With Lily, Yeah, I was hit with pretty significant morning
sickness almost the entire way through. I used to carry
a little bag in the car with me and I
was doing a lot of little vomits in the car unfortunately.
But other than that, I made it to full term.
I was still classed as a high risk pregnancy, but
the pregnancy itself went really well. I just learned to
(05:52):
ask a lot of questions. I decided to really educate
myself more so this time about what I wanted my
birth to look like and just have something to aspire to.
I really, even though there were no options at the
time when I had Henry, it was what needed to
happen happened, you know, there were no choices for me
to have a vaginal birth in that moment. That was
(06:13):
what needed to happen to keep him alive. But given
that everything was looking fantastic with this pregnancy, I wanted
to make the choice to try and do things different,
and I really wanted to have a vaginal birth, so
I opted for what's called a vback, a vaginal birth
after cesarean, and I basically spent my time learning and
finding the best way and the best support people to
(06:33):
help me to get that.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
What made you decide to seek out a doula.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Was my husband, actually my now husband, and I when
we fell pregnant and we were talking about, you know,
my fears around that birth. He said to me, let's
hire a doula, and I said, what's a duola, Like,
I'm sure there's a lot of people that wouldn't have known,
And I actually didn't know what a doula was at
the time, and then he went on to explain that
it's a birth support person who can help educate you
(06:59):
and be there to support you during that birth throughout
your pregnancy as well. So again started doing my research
and we hired a dolla. So she was amazing throughout
that experience. She definitely kept me calm even leading up
to my birth with someone that I could talk to
that wasn't you know, you talk to your friends when
you're going through things, but when you have someone that's
(07:20):
you're paying them to be in your corner and they're
not talking to anyone else, there's no little sideline chats
and people checking in all the time. It's just that
one person, that continuity of care that you have with
someone and you build a bond as well. So you know,
I build a relationship with her leading up to my birth,
so I felt completely comfortable with her being in my
birth space as well.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
How far in advance does a dueler start to kind
of help you out in a birth.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It varies with Nadine. When I had her, I had
booked her quite early on, but really the help comes
when you're getting to the closer part of your birth.
You can obviously message a dueler at any point if
you're concerned, but at the end of the day, a
dueler isn't medical, so I can definitely talk to about
my feelings. She can give me words of support and encouragement,
but if there was anything that was a medical concern,
(08:06):
she would naturally give me advice based on talking to
a doctor. Her care came more into play leading up
to the birth of Lily, so when my waters broke,
letting her know that was happening, she'd come visit me
at the house. You know, duelers will help you labor
at home before you transferred to hospital if you're choosing
to have a hospital birth. In fact, even if it's
a cesarean, they'll be there when you're ready for them
(08:27):
to be there to give you that support. It's like
having a sister in your corner as well as your partner.
If you have a partner coming up.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Ricky goes into labor with a splash.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So tell me about going into labor you said that
you've got to full term.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Well, I call it full term considering it was twenty
eight weeks with Henry. I got to thirty seven, just
over thirty seven weeks, So in my mind when I
got to thirty seven weeks, I was like, I'm cooked,
Like I felt well and truly ready to have that baby.
It was the middle of February that was very hot,
and I was one of the statistics where it was
a big gush Like people assume in the movies that
everyone has the water's breaking and it just really breaks
(09:06):
on the floor, but that doesn't happen for most people.
It did for me. I had the big oh, my gosh,
my waters have definitely broken.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Were you in a supermarket?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I wasn't. I was actually in my kitchen doorway, so
I was at home, thank goodness. But yeah, I had
that proper water breaking situation. But interestingly for me, I
didn't actually go into labor, so my water's broke. I
didn't go into labor. I rocked around on a fitball
for twenty four hours and nothing happened. Went to the hospital,
(09:34):
made sure bub was okay, and made the decision to
go back home and wait longer. Everyone's got their own,
you know, sort of personal choices that they make in
those moments. It's different when you've had a cesarean before,
so if you're pushing for a v back, it's a
very different situation where you really need to arm yourself
with lots of knowledge. The dueler helped me. I decided
(09:55):
to go home. Some people may not have done that,
but it was that, or it was booking in for
a cesarean that day.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
How adamant were you about not having another cesarean look
like anything?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And I'm a realist. No birth is going to be
the same, and you can't dictate. You could say all
you want, I want a home birth, or I want
a vaginal birth, or I want a V back. I
really wanted that vback. I knew that it was going
to be healing for me, but I also knew that
in life, some things just pivot, and I was willing
to pivot my plan. But I wanted to know that
I'd walked away giving it everything I could. So I
(10:27):
went with signing myself out at the hospital for another
twenty four hours, and I promised myself that I'd give
at that time, but I would never put my baby
or myself at risk. So by day three, I took
myself to the hospital. I was on a clock. I
had till six pm that night to have my baby
or they were booking me in for a cesarean.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Were you having regular contractions at this point? Do they
need to give you anything to help that alone?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I had absolutely no contractions. I was doing lots of
talking and moving and trying all the things. I had
not a single twinge of a contraction. I was very
lucky that the obstetrician that was on that day, his
name was doctor Bissert's. He's a huge advocate for v
backs in our hospital. He was on. He was one
hundred percent in my corner. When you've had a v back,
you actually aren't meant to have any kind of interference,
(11:11):
any inductions because it can be a risk for rupture.
Given that there was almost five years between my two,
we made a little bit of a connection on negotiation
and he agreed to allow me to have a slight induction,
And between having that induction, that's where I pivoted. I
went to agreeing to being monitored. I agreed to other
(11:32):
things that in my original plan I had never wanted
to do, but that was what I needed to do
to get the outcome that I wanted, and I had
her within three hours after that.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Did you have like oxytocin or did you have the TA? Yeah,
you have the oxytopcin, just.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
The smallest amount to alleviate any risk of rupture. I
had a very small amount and that's all I needed
and that was at about three o'clock in the afternoon,
and I had her at six eighteen that evening.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Did you have any medication? No, so was the choice
to not have medication part of healing that previous trauma.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I deeally didn't want any medical intervention. And then when
I had the oxytocin, I realized that it was happening
so quickly that, to be honest, I don't think I
would have had time. It was fast and furious, from
the moment that went in and within three and a
half hours from no dilation to having a baby in
my arms, there wouldn't have been any time, so I
(12:24):
just went with it.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Tell us about what your Duela did for you.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Honestly, I don't think I actually would have had the
outcome without her, and of course my husband. But you know,
even in that moment where my water's broke, you know,
your natural urge is to call the hospital, like my
water's a broken, called the hospital, tell them. But obviously
the moment that you call up your hospital, you are
on a clock. So again she's not medical, but she
did sort of say, you don't need to tell them yet,
(12:49):
like we can just see how things play out at home.
So that's what I did. When we went to the hospital.
She was there with me. So in that conversation that
happened with an obstetrician that was on that day where
they said okay, and they had their check board out
and they said, let'sook your in for cesarian today. You're
obviously not going into labor. I was able to have
a quiet conversation with her and my husband. She was
able to bring me back down and you know, encourage
(13:09):
me to make choices for myself, not based on you know,
what someone's telling me to do. Weigh up the risks,
weigh up the benefits, and she was a big part
of what helped me to make the decision to go
home and wait a little bit longer.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So you're in the hospital, the duel is there. You've
had a little bit of oxytocin. You're having all of
a sudden, very intense.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Contractions, really intense contractions. And the funny thing was I
could not stop smiling. Cassenya. Birth is hard, like anyone
that's gone through labor and birth, like, it's not easy,
but you know we can do it. But I was
just so excited that things were moving along. She helped
me with pressure points. She guided my husband into what
he could do to help me throughout that as well.
So it's the other thing. You know, they're there to
(13:50):
help partner support too. It's not like they take over
the partner. It's funny. I felt like she wasn't even
in the room and it was all my husband and
that's how it should be. But she played a huge
role in that birth experience, and you know, it's a
voice of reason as well, right like when you've got
It's bit like when you get on a flight and
if there's turbulence and you look over and you're checking
if the air hostess is a calm and you're like, okay,
(14:11):
they're all calm, so that means that everything's okay. It's
a little bit like that with a duela. You've got
someone in the room, who's calm, someone that's been through
it before, and someone that knows what's going on. And
I think, help my husband, which in turn helps me
because that energy circulates through the room.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Lily is coming, Lily is standing, Are you in the bath?
Are you sitting?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I was loud, so there was a lot of moaning,
deep guttural moaning. Again, it came on quickly. Most women
do start to make a lot of noise at the
end of their birth, but because mine was so fast,
it was pretty much from the get go. Hats off
to long labor women, because you know, I got to
that three hour mark and I was like, how much longer?
(14:51):
It's intense, And it's intense when you for anyone that's
had anything to help them, like an induction, it is
a different speed at which you labor, so, especially when
you've had the pictosal, the artificial oxytocin, that definitely speeds
things up a lot faster than what your body's ready for,
so the pain or the discomfort can be a lot
more intense than when you're sort of laboring naturally. I
(15:14):
was always on all fours and over a ball, and
then just when they said that they could see her head.
They suggested that I kind of come up leaning up
over a bed and yeah, arms up, like arms up
and leaning over and when she came out, I got
to catch her. They sort of handed her up into me. Yeah,
and I was just so happy. Yeah, it was amazing.
(15:34):
It was the best experience. I do it again. But
that ship sailed.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
This is something that I really want to sort of
focus on, is the fact that this was healing for you.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
It was so healing, it was you know, it still
lights me up. I'm so grateful to have been able
to see what my body was capable of and to
actually be able to you know, there are people who
choose to have a plant s's area, and there are
people who choose to have whatever way they want to
birth their baby. But I really wanted that. I really
(16:05):
wanted to be able to see if my body could
do it. I felt like my body had failed me
the last time. I thought that it was me and
that's why I had him so early. So to get
to full term, to be able to have that vaginal birth,
to do everything that I could have done to get that,
I felt like I was a superhero. I walked out
of there going I can take on the world. And
(16:27):
I feel like I've carried that with me all the
way through now, like it's changed me as a person,
Like it's made me realize I can really do anything.
That's genuinely how I feel. Even talking about it makes
me like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Let's go. And what about your husband? How did he
feel about it?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
He was my rock. He was amazing, and he was
just he really wanted it for me as well. Again,
like he actually had more knowledge around duelers and birth
than I did, which was kind of funny. But you know,
he was just there supporting every single decision I made.
He just backed me. So you know, there was no oh,
we should listen to the doctor. They've suggested you have
a ceseri end. Today, it was what do you want
to do? How do you feel I want you to
(17:03):
make the decisions? And so he just empowered me even more.
You know, I had these people in my corner who
were lifting me the whole way and saying you can
do this. So I was just really really lucky.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Was there any moment where they were like, we need
to take you for a Caesar. No.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I knew that we'd made the agreement that if I
had not had her by six o'clock that night that
they'd had already pre booked me in for a cesaian
that evening. Like we've got to remember, I'd been three
days with my waters broken as well, so you know,
there are risks to infection if your waters are broken
for too long a time. So I was very aware
that I needed to make sure that I was okay
and that my baby was okay. So, you know, leading
(17:39):
up that day, spending at hospital where I'm trying to
bring on labor and my doll is doing ACTR pressure
points and all the things, like, I was emotional. I
was mourning the thought that I was probably not going
to get the birth that I wanted. And then everything
changed when we had a really strong conversation with the
obstetrician that was on that day. He really wanted me
to have that v back just as much as I did.
I was lucky that I had the obstetrician I had,
(18:01):
and it just went in my favor, you know, he
agreed to putting the drip in and it changed the
trajectory of my birth outcome.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
There's a lot of people that want to have a feeback,
but there are obviously like those risks with it. What
did they tell you about the risks of having a feedback?
Speaker 1 (18:18):
I mean the risks of the closer you are your
previous birth, the more serious the risks are. So say
i'd had my first birth a year before, there would
have been no chance that I would have been able
to have any kind of inductions. But because there was
five years between, it's all about the scarring. So risks
in hospital will tell you that you're at risk of
a rupture because you've had quite significant abdominal surgery, which
(18:41):
is what a cesarean is. So if you're doing that
too close to the next birth, they say that there's
a risk of a rupture. So again I just say
that it's all about doing your research and finding what
feels right for you, not just going to a medical
provider and letting them dictate. Absolutely hear it and listen
to all of the information and then go home and
do your research and make a decision on what feels
(19:04):
right for you. Ask questions, because that is the biggest part.
It's all about rupture, which can obviously cause hemorrhaging and
that then can be life threatening.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Because of this healing experience of having Lily, you decided
that being a duller was what you wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Why, there were big parts to it. It wasn't just
about the birth. Anyone that's had two children can tell
you that no two postpartums are the same either. I
think when I had Lily, I had you know this
hear me raw experience. But when I came home it
was really difficult, you know, like I was still on
cloud nine, but no sleep. Plus you know, dealing with
(19:39):
a five year old who was just having all the
emotions of starting school. You know, there was a lot
going on when I came home, and no one prepared
me for life with two. No one does, no one can.
And I found that in itself difficult too. So part
of wanting to become a dueler wasn't just around the birth.
It was actually around supporting mothers in their postpartum. It's
been a few years now, but I do a lot
of work with women who just come home with their
(20:01):
baby too. So we place all this emphasis on our
birth and all the education. I'm like, I'm so about it, obviously,
as you can tell, I'm really big on educating yourself
for your birth. But it doesn't end there. It actually
continues on when you go home with that baby, And
I think a lot of people put all the emphasis
on the birth and then they get home and go,
(20:22):
oh my god, what am I meant to do now?
So what I decided was that I wanted to come
into a place of education and supporting women in birth,
but also helping them when they get home that first
twelve weeks, helping them navigate and learn to really lean
into that intuition everything that they wanted in their birth,
you know, lean into that intuition, and to learn to
have the confidence as a mother now as well. So, yeah,
(20:45):
I'm loving it.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
After you had Henry, did you ever think that that
would be the path for you?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Absolutely not. I'd had many different roles and I was
working in events and really late nights and living that
kind of life, and I would have never thought that
this would have been a role for me. But I
went and studied, and I thought I would study it,
not necessarily as a career, but just to see dip
my toe in. And the moment I walked into the
room of the college that I went to, it was
(21:11):
like a whole body experience. All the hair stood up
on my body and I went this is where I
meant to be.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
It's funny because we know each other from beforehand, and
I think there is this like preconception that if you
have a dueler, then you have to have like an
unmedicated birth. It's like a bit woo woo. But when
we're talking, you were like, this is not what it's like.
It's a support for mum.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
That's right. This is a support in birth, pregnancy, postpartum
for the mother. So if it's your birth, it's I mean,
I support women who have plan cesareans. There may be
a whole reason why they want that plan cesarian, but
that's their choice. And if they're choosing that, then my
support comes down to maybe in hospital care or helping
them in their recovery period when they go. It's not
(21:56):
about trying to chastise a woman for the decisions that
she makes. It's actually about empowering them with the decision
that they've made. So there's a big difference. And there's
a lot of noise in the birth and postpartum world
at the moment. And you know, I'm loving the movement
around home birth and learning about it, but it's around
educating yourself first. So educate yourself and if you come
(22:17):
to the conclusion that this type of birth is for me,
then that is the birth for you. And that's what
I'm there for, is to actually empower someone not to
feel guilty. We carry enough guilt as mothers. You don't
need to be guilty from the moment that you decide
how you want to birth your child.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Was there a moment during labor with Lily where you
were like, screw this, just give.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Me this Casar, No, not once you know what, it's
a different pain. And again, anyone that's gone through like
you've done it and you think, oh my gosh, I'm
never gonna be able to do that again, and then
you think, oh my gosh, I could totally do that again.
It ends, you know, and at the end of it
is the biggest gift of all. It's your baby. You
work the hardest you've ever worked in your life. You're
the one that's completely doing it yourself. And the gift
(22:58):
at the end of all of that hard work like
running a marathon. You know, I've run that marathon, and
here's the gift, Like, here's my prize. Do you know what?
The only time that I got frustrated was when my
music stopped. My playlist had stopped. I was obsessed with
having sound in the room and it stopped, and I
ended up part way through like just give it to me,
give me the speaker, and I ended up getting on
the phone and fixing up the Spotify.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, and how is your recovery?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Oh amazing. There's a photo of me the next day
with my slip walking out with my baby, like I
did that.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
You left the next day.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, couldn't wait to get home to the kids and
you know, my husband. So yeah, when I was out
the next day.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Wow, that sounds like it was just a really beautiful
experience for you.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah. I feel really blessed that I was able to
experience that, because I know there's some people that do
go for a vback or have a different hope and
it doesn't happen. But you know, it was a really
beautiful outcome for me.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
You kind of had the perfect birth. I really did.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
It was amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
What would you say to people who have had a
really traumatic birthing experience.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
You know, I've had many clients who've had first time
traumatic berths, and I think it's really important to really
talk about it. I was surprised at the amount of
people who hold it in, who don't really sit and
open up and share it, even with their partners. They
hold it in and they carry it and it's like
a dead weight on their body and it's something that
needs to come out, whether that's with therapy, whether that's
(24:25):
with your partner. You can even hire people like Adula
who will just do birth debriefs. My recommendation is to
really talk about it because a lot of people carry
a lot of guilt around blaming themselves for that birth,
or it could be about blaming someone else, It could
be to do with a birth trauma, from an incident
at the hospital, whatever it might be. But really talking
(24:45):
about it because like any trauma, you have to face it.
You can't bury that, you can't put it down and
hope that it will go away because it's always going
to live there. So yeah, that would be my advice
is to really find someone that you can lean on
and open up to so that you can actually move
through it. It never goes away, but you can live
with it and it will hopefully help you if you
do choose to have more children, to be able to
(25:06):
have a better experience when you.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Do maybe I'm biased, but Rickie's story gives me such
a warm, fuzzy feeling. I was curious, though, so what
are the medical implications of a vback? This week we
have the expert input of host of the Kick Pregnancy
podcast and resident obstetrition and kind ecologist, doctor Pat.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
I think that a v back is not a difficult
thing necessarily to have. The thing that we like to
really look at when someone's interested in a v back
or a toll ackus it's also called is essentially does
the woman actually want it? Sometimes people say no, no, thank you,
I'll just have another section for various reasons, and of
(25:52):
course that's fine. So first hurdle I guess is whether
the woman wants the v back. And then the second
thing we tend to do is have a look at
making an early assessment of suitability, and sometimes that comes
down to looking at things like what were the exact
circumstances of the cesarean section for the first labor, what
does that tell us about how the second one might go?
(26:16):
And then what are the circumstances of the current pregnancy are?
Make sure there's no reason why the current baby shouldn't
be born vaginally. Something serious like placenta preview might be
a major problem. And then in terms of getting it organized,
I think that most obstetricians would be in favor of
vback if the woman has met those sort of criteria.
(26:39):
And we like our vbacks to take place in the
hospital if things change quickly, we need to be able
to respond quickly. And the other thing I think that's
super important with vbacks is education. So we really want
our vback patients to be well informed and really up
to date on the risks and benefits, but also on
(27:01):
how the labor would want to unfold for us to
be really happy with the v back continuing. I often
say to my patients that if it's going poorly, I
want that to be as obvious to you as it
is to me. When we've got that education there, you
know there's no real surprises on the day, and the
success rate is for vback in the right candidate.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I also love Ricky's message of encouraging a symbiosis between
obs and duellers. Here's what doctor Patter has to say
about working as a team.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
I'm always welcoming within my practice to a patient who
wants to have a dueler with her and I think
that can work extremely well. There's absolutely no reason in
the private obstetric sector why we can't have a duler present.
If the woman feels strongly that she wants that additional
support in labor, then I think we should be doing
(27:53):
everything we can to make that work. Often in the
private sector, the woman has chosen her obstetrician because she
feels that that person the obstetrician is providing some of
that support and is intending to support the birth in
the way that the woman wants it supported, and that
(28:13):
might be why there's less dulas involved in the private
In the public sector, where the people looking after you
in labor are rarely the people you've seen for the
antenatal care, and they may well be people that you
haven't met at all, then there's probably more demand for
ADULA to come in with that woman to help support
(28:35):
her and to help advocate for the birth that she wants.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Casenulu Kitch
with expert input from doctor pat This week, we'd love
to hear from you. We've created a survey in the
show notes for your participation. We've also got four fifty
dollars gift vouchers up for grabs, so tell us what
you think. This episode was produced by Lee Stamps and
myself CASSANNUELU Kitch, with audio production by Leah Paugus,
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