Matt and Vince went through a 6 year journey to become parents. With the help of their surrogate and best friend Phoebe, Matt tells the heartwarming story of bringing baby Archer into the world. With heart and humour, Matt gives us his insights into becoming a father as a part of a same sex couple in Australia.
Diary Of A Birth features mums telling their miraculous stories of bringing life into the world, If you’d like to share your birth story, we’d love to hear from you at podcast@mamamia.com.au or send us a voice note here.
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CREDITS:
Host & Producer: Ksenija Lukich
Birth Story: Matthew Knopp
Obstetrician & Gynaecologist: Dr Bronwyn Devine
Executive Producer: Thom Lion
Audio Producer: Scott Stronach
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture. Hi. I'm Cassanya
(00:45):
Lukitch and this is diary of a birth. What would
you do for a friend? Pick them up from the airport,
hold them when they cried, carry their baby. Today's story
is one of a beautiful relationship and one couple's six
year journey to become parents. It's full of heart, humor,
and friendship that is tested by some very awkward situations.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
In all of a sudden, I find myself with my
hand in between my best friend's legs. I just remember
looking at her and going, I don't think our friendship
can get much more more close than this.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So let's meet today's dad.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I'm Matthew Knnop and this is my Sarregacy birth story
with my little boy, Archer.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So what was life like for Matthew before Archer was born?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
My partner of vincen I've been together for fifteen years
and lovers of travel, spent many of those years overseas,
lived over in the UK together, and traveled around Europe
and did all those things that you're meant to do
in your twenties, and we had very chalk and cheese,
I think, is how I would describe ourselves.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
When did you guys sort of start the discussion about
having children together?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Early on, when we first met, we had discussed the
idea of children. Obviously, as too men, we knew that
it was probably going to be a difficult journey, and
understanding the roads that could lead to parenthood was something
that was a challenge in itself. Particularly I think we're
kind of going back fifteen years. We weren't too sure
whether a it would be a possibility, or b if
it was something that we wanted to go after, how
(02:20):
we would even get there. So we knew early on,
I suppose there's a couple that it was always something
that we were interested in, and I think we both
had that yearning and that idea around wanting to be
a father and wanting to be parents, But it wasn't
probably until i'd say about five or six years ago
that we started to explore the possibility with a little
bit more intention and ended up I suppose unraveling this
(02:44):
whole world of sarrogacy and diving deep into that community
and really understanding I suppose what that meant and what
options existed for us as two men to become parents
through that pathway.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Was there something in particular about sarrogacy that you preferred
over adoption.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It's an interesting conversation. I think that there's a lot
of challenges for both pathways for same sex parents to
be able to explore either adoption or surrogacy in Australia.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I think neither is easy.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Neither is easy, and I think it's a long path
that is complicated, and the laws, legislation and policies around
both mix are constantly evolving a challenge to navigate, and
as an individual, I think you feel quite overwhelmed by
even entering the space and trying to understand where you
go for information and how you can navigate that with
(03:35):
your partner. Meanwhile, obviously that's not even at a point
where you're having someone to take care of yet. Yeah,
it can be overwhelming and I think it can be
a deterrent for a lot of people as well. And
navigating their way through their journey to becoming a parent.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, I think there's something really special about people who
have difficult journeys to becoming parents, whether it's IVF sorogusy,
whatever their particular journey getting through that you really want
to be a parent, You really want to be a parent.
I've mentioned this is quite a few times, but I
went through IBF with my first and it is something
(04:07):
about it. This is not an accident. There's absolutely nothing
wrong with people who are able to feel pregnant it
that way, of course, but I think there is something
that it's like, you know what, this is an intention
and it is really well thought out, and it's not
an easy path to go down. You really want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Parent, you really do, and I think that putting your
heart and soul into that intention it's not a flippant
decision either, in the sense that our journey with Archer
took six years from beginning to end, and you know,
kind of taken into account the waiting and the pain
and the changes and the hiccups and everything that kind
of went along that happened to us throughout that time period.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Tell us about meeting your surrogate and how you guys
got pregnant.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So our Phoebe, who is going to be listening to this,
I have to give her a shout out, h.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I Phoebe, well done.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Phoebe has been a longtime friend of mine Vince's twelve
years I think or thirteen years, so we knew her
really well. She was someone who had watched us go
through the planning stage of our parenting journey, and it
was quite funny I suppose how that whole setup took place.
We were kind of in the thick of planning things
(05:18):
out and trying to engage with the Saragaze community at
the time.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And was that via Facebook? Was it Facebook group? It
seems to be that's kind of the first port.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Of call there are. There are a number of Facebook
groups out there which connect ips, which is intended parents
and surrogates or potential surrogates. And I think that the
community out there is really beautiful and really wholesome and
their ability to just connect with everyone in that community,
to be able to connect with one another is a
beautiful thing. And Phoebe had to I suppose, watched us
(05:47):
and talked to us around our journey as part of that,
and it was really funny how we just randomly bumped
into her at the shops one day, I think we're
in bingw and she asked us how we were going,
and we were like, oh, yeah, we're going really well.
And she's like, oh, how's everything on the parenting journey
side of things? And we said, oh, you know, it's
a bit of a struggle, like it's hard to get
out there. It's hard to meet people that you're aligned
with and that you want to be able to go
(06:10):
on this journey with. And she almost flippantly said to
us that, oh, I was speaking to my husband about
that the other day, and I'd be happy to be
your surrogate. And you think she was joking at first,
So I think we were kind of taken aback just
a little. And obviously it was an odd setting to
have that conversation, I think the first but really fortued us.
And it was and it was completely out of left field,
and we kind of joke about it now, just how
(06:32):
the conversation almost came up. But it's also very i
would say metaphoric for the relationship dying to make that
we have with her and had throughout the arrogacy journey
as well in that it was funny and kind of
random and chaotic and all of those things that you
hope it's going to be. And I think that it
(06:52):
was an interesting start.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And we've spoken about this before because we have spoken
to a surrogacy couple before. But the biggest thing about
Australia is the fact that it is an altruistic ye act.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
This is something that you cannot pay someone for, and
in that sense it makes it even more special. And
the fact that someone is willing to Phoebe in this case,
put her body health on the line to help you
and VI's become parents is such a beautiful acknowledgment of
(07:24):
not only what she thinks of you too as a couple,
but also just a beautiful acknowledgment of how beautiful a
person she is. So you've kind of had this initial
meeting in big w and then the next meeting, So
how do you start to talk about the nuts and
bolts of it?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah? And I think that that's one thing I would
say to anybody who is listening and exploring sarregacy or
exploring a journey around this. I think the importance of
communication in any of these types of journeys is so
paramount when it came to Phoebe. That was something that
we had really started at the beginning, was just having
a really open and honest communication and making sure that
(08:01):
when we did sit down for the first time that
we were really raw and honest and open about what
our expectations were, what her expectations were around the process,
around the journey, you know. And some of that's kind
of talking about how we can support her throughout the
pregnancy all the way through to what happens in the
delivery room. But I think that the really important thing
for us is that we quickly realized at the beginning
(08:23):
that we were aligned with a lot. But it also
doesn't take away from the fact that there's really difficult
conversations that you actually need to have as part of that.
You can imagine anyone going through a pregnancy journey, the
conversations that they would have with their significant other, Me
and Vince are then having to have those similar conversations
with who's someone who is our best friend and their
and their husband.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, it's a relationship between you two, you and Vince Phoebe,
And then also there's pact just hanging out at the back.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, Hi, guys.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I'm still here.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Who is you know? I think acted as the best
support person in the world obviously in his position, but
you know, it's funny. I think by the end of it,
Phoebe had referenced us all three as her three husbands,
and I think that's true, quite quite apt for describing
how the relationship dynamic panned out through our journey, because
we we were there as part of their family for
(09:15):
a significant time throughout the pregnancy and had been as
friends beforehand as well. But exploring our surrogacy relationship and
it very much does take on its own life form
pardon the pun, from a friendship and having to navigate
those two dynamics and those two relationships is something that
can be quite tricky, but also something that is equally rewarding.
(09:35):
Not to mention obviously what it meant for us at
the end of the journey, being a little Archer, we
had a family member of mine, actors and egg Diner,
which was really special, and I think that when we
went through that process, obviously that was only the first
part of our journey, and as part of that, we
obviously went through the IVF processes. When we got to
the part of obviously exploring surrogacy and Phoebe being ready
(09:59):
to for pregnant. We had a chemical pregnancy in the beginning,
and then an embryo that didn't take the first time around,
and I think that was something as well. You're kind
of staring down the barrel of having only X amount
of embryos left and pressure. It's a lot of pressure.
It was a scary position to be in. And on
the third try, like in number three, was when the
(10:20):
embryo took with Archer, and obviously we were quite tentative
at first, given the first who hadn't stuck, and we
kind of just kept waiting, you know, and taking it
day by day, and we finally got to that twelve
week mark and went through all the testing and yeah,
I heard his artbeat for the first time.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Most amazing thing in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
It was fantastic. I don't think it's ever going to
be something I will be able to forget. Yeah, you know,
mind you this was also in a post COVID world too,
so yeah, we struggled to find a clinic that would
enable us, all three of us to actually be in
the room together as well, and we were very lucky
there was a clinician who understood the situation and was
kind enough to let us be part of that experience
as well. So very happy for that.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I'd love to know a little bit about the pregnancy itself.
So obviously you went to the appointments with Phoebe, you
were kind of in touch every day, Like how is.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
We were fully fledged a part of that family early
on as well, and I think that, as I said,
we already had a really close relationship. So Phoebe and
Pat's kids, you know, they know us, his uncle Matt
and Uncle Vince. And I think that that because of
that the relationship and at least from a time aspect
and how much time we had spent with them, it
could only really go up. So we were over there
twice a week for the better part of eight months.
(11:35):
It had its challenges, I mean, you know, even best friends,
I think, going from not spending too much time with
each other to spending that much amount of time with
each other, I think it was challenging, you know, And
again we laugh about it now. We were in the
thick of it. We were living as an extension to
Pat and Phoebe's lives, and I think that there was
something that was really beautiful about that as well, in
(11:55):
that we knew that Phoebe was doing this for us,
as you mentioned altruistically, and it was something that she
wanted to do for us because she saw that devotion
that we would provide our child, and she saw that
the love that we had to give, and she wanted
us to be able to experience that and getting to
be part of her world and part of Pat's world.
I think throughout that process was something that was really special.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Did Phoebe have children before?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, She's got an older boy and a younger daughter,
I think so.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Was this her third pregnanty?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
This was her third pregnancy. Yeah. So originally as part
of the discussion that we had with Phoebe earlier on
prior to getting pregnant, her and Pat hadn't had their
daughter at that point, but it was part of their plan.
So that was something that we were really respectful of
and understood that Phoebe was happy to be our saregabt.
It was something that we needed to wait in the sidelines,
so to speak, for her to have a daughter first
(12:46):
before we'd be upsore to speak.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
So the initial conversation that you had between then and
the time she felt pregnant with Archer. She had a
daughter in between. Yeah, yeah, so how long between those.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Two pregnants three and a half years? Four years?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Okay, so how long was this conversation going for?
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, there was a lot of yeah around that. I think, Okay,
well then you know what I mean. She was sure, Yeah,
she was really sure.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Coming up after the break.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
If I'm going through this for you, you are going
to watch it. She has this dark sense of humor
that was kind of enveloped the whole process.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Let's get into the night after came. Yes, so ju day,
all of that, like when was he he.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Was due a few days before he was actually born
the week before. Just for context, Phoebe was experiencing Braxton Hicks,
which is not a nice thing to watch the loon
go through. And I think she had been experiencing Braxton Hicks,
and I think for context as well, this was the
first time that she had needed to monitor labor and
naturally at home. So her first two pregnancies were induced,
(13:58):
so this was the first time that she actually had
to kind of sit at home and wait for the
telltale signs. In theory of what labour feels like. So
she was going through that process and obviously quite highly
alert to any kind of change in her body and
where she was at I suppose in relation to actually
about the dah of birth right.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And it is one of those things when you're in labor,
it's like is this is it?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Not it?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Also then you've got the added challenge of when do
I tell Matt and Vin yes?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And I think that there was a dynamic that definitely
played into it. So yeah, So she'd been experiencing Braxton
Hicks the week prior, and I had visited the doctor
and we'd had made a decision to obviously go along
to every appointment that we could, and that she was
comfortable to have us go along too. So we had
had an appointment with the doctor I think on the
friday after Phoebe had been experiencing Braxton Hicks and things
(14:48):
were looking like they were coming to the end and
Archer was going to be arriving soon. And in true fashion,
the doctor when we went and spoke to him and
the last appointment on the friday, was like, well, it
looks like something's going to happen over the weekend, but
unfortunately I'm on holidays.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Why did have holidays?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, you know, and I think you know, Phoebe panicked clearly.
She was like, well, that's not happening. I am not
giving birth over the weekend. We are waiting until next week.
I'd like to book in Wednesday. That's when it's happening,
you know. And I think we were quietly assuming that
it was going to happen over the weekend and obviously
trying to support Phoebe as best we could in that
scenario because we know that it was something that was
(15:24):
adding undue stress to the situation. But I think myself
in said also Pat were quite of the mind that, well,
if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And so did the baby come on the weekend?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Of course, the baby came on the weekend.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, that was the Sunday.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It was this Sunday. On the Saturday. We had a
bit of a false start. So Phoebe had called us
in the middle of the night the day before and
asked us to come over to their house because obviously
they've got their kids there, and had told us that
she just needed to go to the hospital. She felt
like she was having labor pains and she put it
to go and get it checked out, so we went over.
She went to the hospital. They stayed there for a
(15:59):
few hours, and they basically told her that it looks
like she has started the beginning part of labor but
hadn't dilated it at all I think at that point,
or or had only just started to dilate. So she
was sent home. And you know, we were obviously close
by on the Sunday and had expected things to ramp
up slowly, but obviously at that time the nurses had
also said that you know, this could be days, doesn't
(16:20):
necessarily mean that it's going to be.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
But also third baby, there's generally it's a faster lay.
But they say that, yeah, I generally can be a
faster laybor. So okay, she's their final trip to the hospital.
You and Vincent running in the door.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
We are yep, so Phoebe's obviously ahead of us. She's
got into the hospital. We got the call from Pat
basically saying you need to get the hospital now. Phoebe's
mum's coming over. She's taking the kids and then you
guys need to get to the hospital straight away.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
So you were looking after the kids.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
We were looking after the kids at this point. Still,
you know, obviously we sped as fast as we could
on the highway to get to the hospital, and you know,
we're obviously rushing up to get to the door to
a private hospital, and the maternity suite at that time
was closed to the public, so we're you know, we
obviously we press the button, banging on the door, and
the security guard answered and he goes, who are you
here to see and it is like, we need to
go up to the delivery suite. This guy was probably
(17:09):
the slowest walker I've ever seen in my life coming
up to the doorway and where they're in utter panic.
And he opens the door and he's like, there's no
visitors right now, and we're like, what are you talking
And he goes, there's no visitors. You need to come
back tomorrow. And we start to get into this argument
about the fact that we're parents and he's not really
understanding the situation. And obviously there's two guys who have
rocked up at one o'clock in the morning to a
(17:30):
maternity suite and begging to be let in. You know,
we kind of ended up just rushing past him and
we're like, where the fathers like at the top of
our lungs, and I think he just was a bit
confused about the whole dynamics and socks. I know, I
feel a bit bad for him now kind of thinking back,
but obviously he didn't know what was going on, and
it was just a bit of a funny.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Story, but it's a great story.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So we ran into the lift, went up the lift
and ushered basically straight into the room where Phoebe was
and she was in the middle of getting her epidural,
and I think between entering the room and Archer being born,
I think there was probably around fifteen twenty minutes. Oh
that is, we were cutting it very fine in getting
(18:11):
there in time.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
But she only had a half working epidural.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah she did, so I think, so she's in agaby.
Phoebe was in quite a lot of pain when we
got there. The epidural was only working in half side,
in half of her body.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I had that with my son as well, and a
few days prior to Phoebe, so Phobe, I feel your.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Way, and I think she knew that she had actually
burnt through the epidural quite early in her second pregnancy,
so it was something that she was prepared for going in,
and she was quite adamant about wanting to make sure
that the epidural worked and that it was the right dosage,
and to have it only work through half of her body.
It was it was horrible to watch phobe a redhead.
(18:51):
Yeah she is, Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Do you know why that is? Yeah? Anesthesia is you
need a higher dose for redheads, they need more anesthesia.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, how, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
It's something it's a genetic it's something about the genetics
that for some reason, redheads require a higher dose of anesthesia.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So yeah. We entered the room and Phoebe was in
the process of getting her epidural, and I think it
was the second time they actually had tried to insert
the epidural to make sure that it was working. And
it was quite chaotic in the sense that she was
trying to test I suppose you know how they test
the waters in seeing whether or not it actually is
working by I think seeing if your feet are actually
(19:33):
you can feel movement on your feet, And she kept
saying over and over again that she could still feel
the right side of her foot and clear the epertura
wasn't working, and I think what happened was that it
escalated pretty quickly in that sense. So while she was
going through the process of trying to get the eperitural fixed,
she had obviously been dilating and had been continuing to
dilate as well, and Archer was just ready ready, and
(19:58):
there was this really intense moment I'll never forget it
where the midwife wi we had was just this angel
sent from Heaven. Midwives out there, you're amazing people. Really,
we just had this amazing woman who the doctor hadn't
shown up yet, and the midwife was getting the stirrups ready,
and it was looking at the point where the midwife
was actually going to deliver Archer, and there was this
moment where she had to lock eyes with Phoebe and
(20:20):
basically say to Phoebe that it's too late for the
epidural to be fixed. The baby's coming now and you're
going to have to do this. And the panic that
I saw in Phoebe's face was life altering. Like I
think it was a culmination of love and guilt and
the hope and fear to see a friend go through that,
not at the least for you, you know, is something I'm
(20:44):
never going to forget. And they had locked eyes and
she said I remember her saying to the midwife, She's like,
I can't do this, and the midwife's going, yes, you can,
you can do this. And you know, I think there
was just this surge of grit and determination and power
that if no one has been in a delivery suite
and seen that, I don't think could articulate. And from
(21:06):
that moment, in classic fashion, the doctor just swans in.
The midwife moves out of the way, and the doctor's like, well,
come on, everybody, let's have a baby, and Phoebe's like,
get away from me. Like it was just this moment
of kind of like odd humor and the kind of
a change in the environment, and you know, the midwife
(21:27):
was there with her side by side, and you know,
the doctor obviously kind of got into a position and
I think through four or five contractions, Archer was delivered
within that time period.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, that must have been really difficult for you and
Vince and Pat as well. Watching someone you love go
through pain, is you feel very powerless because all you
want to do is take their pain away. Yeah, I'm
sure you spoke about this before, but that is obviously
a vulnerable moment for Phoebe. How did you navigate that?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I think the communication we had very early on was
important to that conversation. We had a rough birth plan,
and I think that that was something that we given
the added level of complexity of adding another two people
into the situation, it was important that we did discuss
what was possible given the circumstances, and also what Phoebe
was comfortable with. And from the beginning she always jokingly
(22:22):
said that if I'm going through this for you, you
are going to watch it. And she has this dark
sense of humor that was kind of enveloped the whole process,
and I think that was what it made it so special.
And you know, She's like, if I'm going to be
in pain, you were right there with me, and I
wouldn't have had it any other way. I think where
we were in the actual delivery suite was I was
(22:43):
right next to Phoebe holding her other hand, with her
husband on the other side coming up. We were obviously
kind of just standing there, shocked, going what just happened.
Phoebe blessed us soul was like, oh my god, is
pad okay? It's pad okay? And in the meantime, we're
obviously checking on Archer and Phoebe. I'm like, are you
guys okay, you guys okay. It was this, you know,
six foot man just fell onto his wife that had
(23:04):
just given birth. So Archer comes out, Archer does come out.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, everyone's crying.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Of course, everyone is crying.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Archer goes onto Phoebe's chest as I yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, when Archer was delivered, he went onto Phoebe's chess.
When he was on Phoebe's chest, obviously she had the
opportunity to say hello and kind of also witness I
think her achievement in being able to get to this
final stage. And obviously as part of that, Phoebe handed
Archer over to.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Us and mean, Vince did you and Vince cut the cord.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
We both got to cut the cord actually, which was
a really special moment. I think we kind of snipped
it and then it was a little bit left and
we had like snippet again and it was all a
bit weird and in a bit funny.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
But it's like a really spongy yeah it is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It's kind of like squid to put a fine point
on it, it's that kind of texture, which is a
bit odd.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Oh, but that's actually a very very special moment.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yeah, Phoebe passed Archer over to me and Vince and
we had the opportunity to just hold him for the
first time. And I think that it's such a beautiful
moment that is filled with so much raw emotion, and
I find it quite hard to articulate in a lot
of ways, because you you just have this overwhelming surge
(24:23):
of love and it feels like love in the most
purest form. And I think I just remember looking down
on him for the first time and looking at Vince,
and I think that there was such a you could
hear a pin drop in the room, and it was
probably so loud and so many other things going on,
but from our point of view, you could hear a
pin drop. And to be able to just kind of
look at him for the first time and imagine what
(24:47):
our lives are going to be from that moment onwards
is so special. And I still find it so amazing
that in an instant you have someone that you would
lay your life down for.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Where was Pat once Archer was born?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
So Pat, as I said earlier, he was obviously standing
next to Phoebe on the other side, and there was
this really beautiful moment where we had cuddled Archer for
a little bit and passed him over to Phoebe, and
a part of that process, obviously, was she was passing
the placenta was there on the side of her, and
I think we were all kind of just in this
bubble of love, which was really beautiful. Pat was striking
(25:28):
Phoebe's hair and kind of, you know, saying she did
an amazing job. And there was this moment I remember
where he leant over in what I thought was him
giving her a kiss on the forehead, but something just
seemed a bit off, and in this moment that just
quickly took a turn. He lurched and kind of fell
over onto Phoebe a Archer and Phoebe at the time
(25:52):
found this untapped well of strength and pushed her husband
backwards onto a medical tray that was standing in the corner,
and you know, that went clanging and he fell on
the floor, and we were obviously kind of just standing
there shocked, going what just happened. Phoebe, you know, bless
us soul was like, oh my god, it's Pad, Okay,
it's Pad. Okay, and in the meantime, we're obviously checking
(26:14):
on Archer and Phoebe. I'm like, are you guys okay,
you guys okay. It was this, you know, six foot
man just fell onto his wife, just given birth and
our baby boys in her arms as well, and he's
you know, kind of fell on top of him, you know,
and it was just funny because the midwives and the doctors,
they just it was business as usual. They're kind of
rumming to around, got him a pillow, made sure that
(26:34):
she was okay, and then there was just this moment where,
you know, obviously I was kind of the one tending
to Phoebe at that point because Archer was being given
over to Vince Pats on the ground, and this midwife
just grabs my hand and goes he hold this, and
you know, all of a sudden, I find myself with
my hand in between my best friend's legs holding up
(26:55):
medical gauze, and I just remember looking at her and going,
I don't think our friendship can get much more close
than this.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And it's something that we now both just absolutely laugh at,
but you know, it just wow. We were both in
the moment and we.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Just were like, that's a good friend.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
It's a good friend.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Both of you are very good friends to each other.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You can't come back from that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I have said to a lot of people that becoming
a parent is the single most transformative life change that
you will have. And one of the biggest things I
always think about is up until that point, everything in
your life, every milestone in your life is about you.
After you're parent, the milestones become your child's. The first bath,
(27:45):
the first cuddle, the first kiss, the first illness, first walk,
the first walk, first words. It's all about them. And
the beauty in that is the pride that you feel
as a parent, in seeing that it's really special taking
Archer home, and you know that relationship with Phoebe after
(28:05):
bringing Archer home, obviously she's going to be a part
of your life and Archer's life forever. What does he called.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Phoebe Honey, Phoebe, Honey, Phoebe, which you know, I think
was always going to be the case regardless, you know,
sometimes as special line Phoebe in the context of obviously
kind of talking about his story and how he came
into the world. But I think that that was something
that was really important to us is to be able
to have someone like Phoebe be a part of this
(28:34):
journey and know that she would always be a part
of Archer's life and that she would always be a
part of his journey as well. And after obviously after
the birth, we you know, she was over it kind
of reversed, it flipped a little bit. She was over
our house every other day for the first few weeks.
And she's a mom of two, works full time. You know,
we get to see her as often as we can
as well, but we really have the opportunity when we
(28:56):
do see each other to look back on the journey
that we went through and reflect on it with so
much love for each other, but also so much laughter
because there were so many funny moments along the way.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And Archer is too now almost.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Almost too and any parent, like time, takes on its
own life. Or actually, I think when you become a parent,
because as you pointed out, everything is based on minelestones
and then all of a sudden, they're too and you know,
you're getting slapped in the face because you didn't give
them a lolly for breakfast, and I think.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's oh, I got I had that argument this morning
where you.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Had an icy whole argument all more, and it's like
using gentle hands and we're not having a nice block
for breakfast. But where does time go? It just slips
away from you. And I think it's only something you
can grasp once you've become a parent. I think that
you always hear that it's like, oh, kids grabs that quickly,
or time goes so quickly, But when you're actually experiencing
that firsthand, I think is something that you only really understand.
(29:52):
Thank you so much, Matt, thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Here at Diary of a Birth, we want to answer
all your burning medical questions, and we've brought on IVF
specialist and obstetrician, doctor Bromwin Devine. I want to know,
is the IVF process any different in a surrogacy journey.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
So certainly there's a lot more screening beforehand and a
lot of psychological counseling that has to take place beforehand,
have quite a lot of meetings with the commissioning couple,
the people who are intending to be parents, or the
intended parents we sometimes call them, and a meeting with
the surrogate and the surrogate's partner, if the surrogate has
(30:32):
a partner, and then there may be a separate meeting
with the egg donor if there's a separate egg donor,
and then those people have to also all seek legal
advice and have a legal contract drawn up. They have
to have lots and lots of screening done, and they
have to see a psychologist for quite exhaustive counseling, and
so much more than the counseling we normally do for
(30:53):
say a couple who are looking to use donor sperm
or something like that. And then it needs to be
very very clear that the surrogacy process is altruistic. Even
though surrogacy has got itself a bad name and people
get really concerned that it's exploitative. In a setting where
you have someone who has altruistically or with open arms
embraced the idea of being a surrogate for someone who's
(31:16):
very dear to them, it can be a wonderful, wonderful
experience to be involved with.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I'm also curious what is an umbilical cord made of.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
It's comprised of usually three vessels, two arteries, and a vein,
and they provide the oxygen and nutrients to the baby
and also remove the waste from the baby and send
those back to the mum for the mum's body to
get rid of. So, because they are blood vessels and
they're coursing in the uterus in the fluid, the baby
(31:49):
could easily squish those and reduce blood flow or compromise
blood flow to the baby. And so they've got to
be surrounded by a funny little substance which is called
Wharton's jelly, which is a funny name, but Wharton's jelly
is like a gelatinous substance that really protects those vessels
and then stops the baby for all intents and purposes
(32:13):
squishing on those vessels and then reducing blood flow. So
the cord itself consists of a membrane, the same sort
of membrane that is within the placenta, the membrane, the
three blood vessels, usually three, sometimes the two, and then
this funny Wharton's jelly, which is why when you cut it,
at the time that you know it's time to cut
the cord, it feels so grisly or spongy.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Cassenelu Kitch
with expert input from doctor Bronwin Devine. This episode was
produced by Tom Lyon and myself Cassena lu Kit, with
audio production by Scott Stronach
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture. Hi. I'm Cassanya
(00:45):
Lukitch and this is diary of a birth. What would
you do for a friend? Pick them up from the airport,
hold them when they cried, carry their baby. Today's story
is one of a beautiful relationship and one couple's six
year journey to become parents. It's full of heart, humor,
and friendship that is tested by some very awkward situations.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
In all of a sudden, I find myself with my
hand in between my best friend's legs. I just remember
looking at her and going, I don't think our friendship
can get much more more close than this.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
So let's meet today's dad.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
I'm Matthew Knnop and this is my Sarregacy birth story
with my little boy, Archer.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So what was life like for Matthew before Archer was born?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
My partner of vincen I've been together for fifteen years
and lovers of travel, spent many of those years overseas,
lived over in the UK together, and traveled around Europe
and did all those things that you're meant to do
in your twenties, and we had very chalk and cheese,
I think, is how I would describe ourselves.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
When did you guys sort of start the discussion about
having children together?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Early on, when we first met, we had discussed the
idea of children. Obviously, as too men, we knew that
it was probably going to be a difficult journey, and
understanding the roads that could lead to parenthood was something
that was a challenge in itself. Particularly I think we're
kind of going back fifteen years. We weren't too sure
whether a it would be a possibility, or b if
it was something that we wanted to go after, how
(02:20):
we would even get there. So we knew early on,
I suppose there's a couple that it was always something
that we were interested in, and I think we both
had that yearning and that idea around wanting to be
a father and wanting to be parents, But it wasn't
probably until i'd say about five or six years ago
that we started to explore the possibility with a little
bit more intention and ended up I suppose unraveling this
(02:44):
whole world of sarrogacy and diving deep into that community
and really understanding I suppose what that meant and what
options existed for us as two men to become parents
through that pathway.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Was there something in particular about sarrogacy that you preferred
over adoption.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It's an interesting conversation. I think that there's a lot
of challenges for both pathways for same sex parents to
be able to explore either adoption or surrogacy in Australia.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I think neither is easy.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Neither is easy, and I think it's a long path
that is complicated, and the laws, legislation and policies around
both mix are constantly evolving a challenge to navigate, and
as an individual, I think you feel quite overwhelmed by
even entering the space and trying to understand where you
go for information and how you can navigate that with
(03:35):
your partner. Meanwhile, obviously that's not even at a point
where you're having someone to take care of yet. Yeah,
it can be overwhelming and I think it can be
a deterrent for a lot of people as well. And
navigating their way through their journey to becoming a parent.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, I think there's something really special about people who
have difficult journeys to becoming parents, whether it's IVF sorogusy,
whatever their particular journey getting through that you really want
to be a parent, You really want to be a parent.
I've mentioned this is quite a few times, but I
went through IBF with my first and it is something
(04:07):
about it. This is not an accident. There's absolutely nothing
wrong with people who are able to feel pregnant it
that way, of course, but I think there is something
that it's like, you know what, this is an intention
and it is really well thought out, and it's not
an easy path to go down. You really want to be.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Parent, you really do, and I think that putting your
heart and soul into that intention it's not a flippant
decision either, in the sense that our journey with Archer
took six years from beginning to end, and you know,
kind of taken into account the waiting and the pain
and the changes and the hiccups and everything that kind
of went along that happened to us throughout that time period.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Tell us about meeting your surrogate and how you guys
got pregnant.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So our Phoebe, who is going to be listening to this,
I have to give her a shout out, h.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I Phoebe, well done.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Phoebe has been a longtime friend of mine Vince's twelve
years I think or thirteen years, so we knew her
really well. She was someone who had watched us go
through the planning stage of our parenting journey, and it
was quite funny I suppose how that whole setup took place.
We were kind of in the thick of planning things
(05:18):
out and trying to engage with the Saragaze community at
the time.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And was that via Facebook? Was it Facebook group? It
seems to be that's kind of the first port.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Of call there are. There are a number of Facebook
groups out there which connect ips, which is intended parents
and surrogates or potential surrogates. And I think that the
community out there is really beautiful and really wholesome and
their ability to just connect with everyone in that community,
to be able to connect with one another is a
beautiful thing. And Phoebe had to I suppose, watched us
(05:47):
and talked to us around our journey as part of that,
and it was really funny how we just randomly bumped
into her at the shops one day, I think we're
in bingw and she asked us how we were going,
and we were like, oh, yeah, we're going really well.
And she's like, oh, how's everything on the parenting journey
side of things? And we said, oh, you know, it's
a bit of a struggle, like it's hard to get
out there. It's hard to meet people that you're aligned
with and that you want to be able to go
(06:10):
on this journey with. And she almost flippantly said to
us that, oh, I was speaking to my husband about
that the other day, and I'd be happy to be
your surrogate. And you think she was joking at first,
So I think we were kind of taken aback just
a little. And obviously it was an odd setting to
have that conversation, I think the first but really fortued us.
And it was and it was completely out of left field,
and we kind of joke about it now, just how
(06:32):
the conversation almost came up. But it's also very i
would say metaphoric for the relationship dying to make that
we have with her and had throughout the arrogacy journey
as well in that it was funny and kind of
random and chaotic and all of those things that you
hope it's going to be. And I think that it
(06:52):
was an interesting start.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And we've spoken about this before because we have spoken
to a surrogacy couple before. But the biggest thing about
Australia is the fact that it is an altruistic ye act.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
This is something that you cannot pay someone for, and
in that sense it makes it even more special. And
the fact that someone is willing to Phoebe in this case,
put her body health on the line to help you
and VI's become parents is such a beautiful acknowledgment of
(07:24):
not only what she thinks of you too as a couple,
but also just a beautiful acknowledgment of how beautiful a
person she is. So you've kind of had this initial
meeting in big w and then the next meeting, So
how do you start to talk about the nuts and
bolts of it?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah? And I think that that's one thing I would
say to anybody who is listening and exploring sarregacy or
exploring a journey around this. I think the importance of
communication in any of these types of journeys is so
paramount when it came to Phoebe. That was something that
we had really started at the beginning, was just having
a really open and honest communication and making sure that
(08:01):
when we did sit down for the first time that
we were really raw and honest and open about what
our expectations were, what her expectations were around the process,
around the journey, you know. And some of that's kind
of talking about how we can support her throughout the
pregnancy all the way through to what happens in the
delivery room. But I think that the really important thing
for us is that we quickly realized at the beginning
(08:23):
that we were aligned with a lot. But it also
doesn't take away from the fact that there's really difficult
conversations that you actually need to have as part of that.
You can imagine anyone going through a pregnancy journey, the
conversations that they would have with their significant other, Me
and Vince are then having to have those similar conversations
with who's someone who is our best friend and their
and their husband.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, it's a relationship between you two, you and Vince Phoebe,
And then also there's pact just hanging out at the back.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, Hi, guys.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I'm still here.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Who is you know? I think acted as the best
support person in the world obviously in his position, but
you know, it's funny. I think by the end of it,
Phoebe had referenced us all three as her three husbands,
and I think that's true, quite quite apt for describing
how the relationship dynamic panned out through our journey, because
we we were there as part of their family for
(09:15):
a significant time throughout the pregnancy and had been as
friends beforehand as well. But exploring our surrogacy relationship and
it very much does take on its own life form
pardon the pun, from a friendship and having to navigate
those two dynamics and those two relationships is something that
can be quite tricky, but also something that is equally rewarding.
(09:35):
Not to mention obviously what it meant for us at
the end of the journey, being a little Archer, we
had a family member of mine, actors and egg Diner,
which was really special, and I think that when we
went through that process, obviously that was only the first
part of our journey, and as part of that, we
obviously went through the IVF processes. When we got to
the part of obviously exploring surrogacy and Phoebe being ready
(09:59):
to for pregnant. We had a chemical pregnancy in the beginning,
and then an embryo that didn't take the first time around,
and I think that was something as well. You're kind
of staring down the barrel of having only X amount
of embryos left and pressure. It's a lot of pressure.
It was a scary position to be in. And on
the third try, like in number three, was when the
(10:20):
embryo took with Archer, and obviously we were quite tentative
at first, given the first who hadn't stuck, and we
kind of just kept waiting, you know, and taking it
day by day, and we finally got to that twelve
week mark and went through all the testing and yeah,
I heard his artbeat for the first time.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Most amazing thing in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
It was fantastic. I don't think it's ever going to
be something I will be able to forget. Yeah, you know,
mind you this was also in a post COVID world too,
so yeah, we struggled to find a clinic that would
enable us, all three of us to actually be in
the room together as well, and we were very lucky
there was a clinician who understood the situation and was
kind enough to let us be part of that experience
as well. So very happy for that.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I'd love to know a little bit about the pregnancy itself.
So obviously you went to the appointments with Phoebe, you
were kind of in touch every day, Like how is.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
We were fully fledged a part of that family early
on as well, and I think that, as I said,
we already had a really close relationship. So Phoebe and
Pat's kids, you know, they know us, his uncle Matt
and Uncle Vince. And I think that that because of
that the relationship and at least from a time aspect
and how much time we had spent with them, it
could only really go up. So we were over there
twice a week for the better part of eight months.
(11:35):
It had its challenges, I mean, you know, even best friends,
I think, going from not spending too much time with
each other to spending that much amount of time with
each other, I think it was challenging, you know, And
again we laugh about it now. We were in the
thick of it. We were living as an extension to
Pat and Phoebe's lives, and I think that there was
something that was really beautiful about that as well, in
(11:55):
that we knew that Phoebe was doing this for us,
as you mentioned altruistically, and it was something that she
wanted to do for us because she saw that devotion
that we would provide our child, and she saw that
the love that we had to give, and she wanted
us to be able to experience that and getting to
be part of her world and part of Pat's world.
I think throughout that process was something that was really special.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Did Phoebe have children before?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, She's got an older boy and a younger daughter,
I think so.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Was this her third pregnanty?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
This was her third pregnancy. Yeah. So originally as part
of the discussion that we had with Phoebe earlier on
prior to getting pregnant, her and Pat hadn't had their
daughter at that point, but it was part of their plan.
So that was something that we were really respectful of
and understood that Phoebe was happy to be our saregabt.
It was something that we needed to wait in the sidelines,
so to speak, for her to have a daughter first
(12:46):
before we'd be upsore to speak.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
So the initial conversation that you had between then and
the time she felt pregnant with Archer. She had a
daughter in between. Yeah, yeah, so how long between those.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Two pregnants three and a half years? Four years?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Okay, so how long was this conversation going for?
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, there was a lot of yeah around that. I think, Okay,
well then you know what I mean. She was sure, Yeah,
she was really sure.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Coming up after the break.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
If I'm going through this for you, you are going
to watch it. She has this dark sense of humor
that was kind of enveloped the whole process.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Let's get into the night after came. Yes, so ju day,
all of that, like when was he he.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Was due a few days before he was actually born
the week before. Just for context, Phoebe was experiencing Braxton Hicks,
which is not a nice thing to watch the loon
go through. And I think she had been experiencing Braxton Hicks,
and I think for context as well, this was the
first time that she had needed to monitor labor and
naturally at home. So her first two pregnancies were induced,
(13:58):
so this was the first time that she actually had
to kind of sit at home and wait for the
telltale signs. In theory of what labour feels like. So
she was going through that process and obviously quite highly
alert to any kind of change in her body and
where she was at I suppose in relation to actually
about the dah of birth right.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And it is one of those things when you're in labor,
it's like is this is it?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Not it?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Also then you've got the added challenge of when do
I tell Matt and Vin yes?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And I think that there was a dynamic that definitely
played into it. So yeah, So she'd been experiencing Braxton
Hicks the week prior, and I had visited the doctor
and we'd had made a decision to obviously go along
to every appointment that we could, and that she was
comfortable to have us go along too. So we had
had an appointment with the doctor I think on the
friday after Phoebe had been experiencing Braxton Hicks and things
(14:48):
were looking like they were coming to the end and
Archer was going to be arriving soon. And in true fashion,
the doctor when we went and spoke to him and
the last appointment on the friday, was like, well, it
looks like something's going to happen over the weekend, but
unfortunately I'm on holidays.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Why did have holidays?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, you know, and I think you know, Phoebe panicked clearly.
She was like, well, that's not happening. I am not
giving birth over the weekend. We are waiting until next week.
I'd like to book in Wednesday. That's when it's happening,
you know. And I think we were quietly assuming that
it was going to happen over the weekend and obviously
trying to support Phoebe as best we could in that
scenario because we know that it was something that was
(15:24):
adding undue stress to the situation. But I think myself
in said also Pat were quite of the mind that, well,
if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And so did the baby come on the weekend?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Of course, the baby came on the weekend.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, that was the Sunday.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It was this Sunday. On the Saturday. We had a
bit of a false start. So Phoebe had called us
in the middle of the night the day before and
asked us to come over to their house because obviously
they've got their kids there, and had told us that
she just needed to go to the hospital. She felt
like she was having labor pains and she put it
to go and get it checked out, so we went over.
She went to the hospital. They stayed there for a
(15:59):
few hours, and they basically told her that it looks
like she has started the beginning part of labor but
hadn't dilated it at all I think at that point,
or or had only just started to dilate. So she
was sent home. And you know, we were obviously close
by on the Sunday and had expected things to ramp
up slowly, but obviously at that time the nurses had
also said that you know, this could be days, doesn't
(16:20):
necessarily mean that it's going to be.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
But also third baby, there's generally it's a faster lay.
But they say that, yeah, I generally can be a
faster laybor. So okay, she's their final trip to the hospital.
You and Vincent running in the door.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
We are yep, so Phoebe's obviously ahead of us. She's
got into the hospital. We got the call from Pat
basically saying you need to get the hospital now. Phoebe's
mum's coming over. She's taking the kids and then you
guys need to get to the hospital straight away.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
So you were looking after the kids.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
We were looking after the kids at this point. Still,
you know, obviously we sped as fast as we could
on the highway to get to the hospital, and you know,
we're obviously rushing up to get to the door to
a private hospital, and the maternity suite at that time
was closed to the public, so we're you know, we
obviously we press the button, banging on the door, and
the security guard answered and he goes, who are you
here to see and it is like, we need to
go up to the delivery suite. This guy was probably
(17:09):
the slowest walker I've ever seen in my life coming
up to the doorway and where they're in utter panic.
And he opens the door and he's like, there's no
visitors right now, and we're like, what are you talking
And he goes, there's no visitors. You need to come
back tomorrow. And we start to get into this argument
about the fact that we're parents and he's not really
understanding the situation. And obviously there's two guys who have
rocked up at one o'clock in the morning to a
(17:30):
maternity suite and begging to be let in. You know,
we kind of ended up just rushing past him and
we're like, where the fathers like at the top of
our lungs, and I think he just was a bit
confused about the whole dynamics and socks. I know, I
feel a bit bad for him now kind of thinking back,
but obviously he didn't know what was going on, and
it was just a bit of a funny.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Story, but it's a great story.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So we ran into the lift, went up the lift
and ushered basically straight into the room where Phoebe was
and she was in the middle of getting her epidural,
and I think between entering the room and Archer being born,
I think there was probably around fifteen twenty minutes. Oh
that is, we were cutting it very fine in getting
(18:11):
there in time.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
But she only had a half working epidural.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah she did, so I think, so she's in agaby.
Phoebe was in quite a lot of pain when we
got there. The epidural was only working in half side,
in half of her body.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I had that with my son as well, and a
few days prior to Phoebe, so Phobe, I feel your.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Way, and I think she knew that she had actually
burnt through the epidural quite early in her second pregnancy,
so it was something that she was prepared for going in,
and she was quite adamant about wanting to make sure
that the epidural worked and that it was the right dosage,
and to have it only work through half of her body.
It was it was horrible to watch phobe a redhead.
(18:51):
Yeah she is, Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Do you know why that is? Yeah? Anesthesia is you
need a higher dose for redheads, they need more anesthesia.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, how, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
It's something it's a genetic it's something about the genetics
that for some reason, redheads require a higher dose of anesthesia.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So yeah. We entered the room and Phoebe was in
the process of getting her epidural, and I think it
was the second time they actually had tried to insert
the epidural to make sure that it was working. And
it was quite chaotic in the sense that she was
trying to test I suppose you know how they test
the waters in seeing whether or not it actually is
working by I think seeing if your feet are actually
(19:33):
you can feel movement on your feet, And she kept
saying over and over again that she could still feel
the right side of her foot and clear the epertura
wasn't working, and I think what happened was that it
escalated pretty quickly in that sense. So while she was
going through the process of trying to get the eperitural fixed,
she had obviously been dilating and had been continuing to
dilate as well, and Archer was just ready ready, and
(19:58):
there was this really intense moment I'll never forget it
where the midwife wi we had was just this angel
sent from Heaven. Midwives out there, you're amazing people. Really,
we just had this amazing woman who the doctor hadn't
shown up yet, and the midwife was getting the stirrups ready,
and it was looking at the point where the midwife
was actually going to deliver Archer, and there was this
moment where she had to lock eyes with Phoebe and
(20:20):
basically say to Phoebe that it's too late for the
epidural to be fixed. The baby's coming now and you're
going to have to do this. And the panic that
I saw in Phoebe's face was life altering. Like I
think it was a culmination of love and guilt and
the hope and fear to see a friend go through that,
not at the least for you, you know, is something I'm
(20:44):
never going to forget. And they had locked eyes and
she said I remember her saying to the midwife, She's like,
I can't do this, and the midwife's going, yes, you can,
you can do this. And you know, I think there
was just this surge of grit and determination and power
that if no one has been in a delivery suite
and seen that, I don't think could articulate. And from
(21:06):
that moment, in classic fashion, the doctor just swans in.
The midwife moves out of the way, and the doctor's like, well,
come on, everybody, let's have a baby, and Phoebe's like,
get away from me. Like it was just this moment
of kind of like odd humor and the kind of
a change in the environment, and you know, the midwife
(21:27):
was there with her side by side, and you know,
the doctor obviously kind of got into a position and
I think through four or five contractions, Archer was delivered
within that time period.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, that must have been really difficult for you and
Vince and Pat as well. Watching someone you love go
through pain, is you feel very powerless because all you
want to do is take their pain away. Yeah, I'm
sure you spoke about this before, but that is obviously
a vulnerable moment for Phoebe. How did you navigate that?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I think the communication we had very early on was
important to that conversation. We had a rough birth plan,
and I think that that was something that we given
the added level of complexity of adding another two people
into the situation, it was important that we did discuss
what was possible given the circumstances, and also what Phoebe
was comfortable with. And from the beginning she always jokingly
(22:22):
said that if I'm going through this for you, you
are going to watch it. And she has this dark
sense of humor that was kind of enveloped the whole process,
and I think that was what it made it so special.
And you know, She's like, if I'm going to be
in pain, you were right there with me, and I
wouldn't have had it any other way. I think where
we were in the actual delivery suite was I was
(22:43):
right next to Phoebe holding her other hand, with her
husband on the other side coming up. We were obviously
kind of just standing there, shocked, going what just happened.
Phoebe blessed us soul was like, oh my god, is
pad okay? It's pad okay? And in the meantime, we're
obviously checking on Archer and Phoebe. I'm like, are you
guys okay, you guys okay. It was this, you know,
six foot man just fell onto his wife that had
(23:04):
just given birth. So Archer comes out, Archer does come out.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, everyone's crying.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Of course, everyone is crying.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Archer goes onto Phoebe's chest as I yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, when Archer was delivered, he went onto Phoebe's chess.
When he was on Phoebe's chest, obviously she had the
opportunity to say hello and kind of also witness I
think her achievement in being able to get to this
final stage. And obviously as part of that, Phoebe handed
Archer over to.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Us and mean, Vince did you and Vince cut the cord.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
We both got to cut the cord actually, which was
a really special moment. I think we kind of snipped
it and then it was a little bit left and
we had like snippet again and it was all a
bit weird and in a bit funny.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
But it's like a really spongy yeah it is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It's kind of like squid to put a fine point
on it, it's that kind of texture, which is a
bit odd.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Oh, but that's actually a very very special moment.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yeah, Phoebe passed Archer over to me and Vince and
we had the opportunity to just hold him for the
first time. And I think that it's such a beautiful
moment that is filled with so much raw emotion, and
I find it quite hard to articulate in a lot
of ways, because you you just have this overwhelming surge
(24:23):
of love and it feels like love in the most
purest form. And I think I just remember looking down
on him for the first time and looking at Vince,
and I think that there was such a you could
hear a pin drop in the room, and it was
probably so loud and so many other things going on,
but from our point of view, you could hear a
pin drop. And to be able to just kind of
look at him for the first time and imagine what
(24:47):
our lives are going to be from that moment onwards
is so special. And I still find it so amazing
that in an instant you have someone that you would
lay your life down for.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Where was Pat once Archer was born?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
So Pat, as I said earlier, he was obviously standing
next to Phoebe on the other side, and there was
this really beautiful moment where we had cuddled Archer for
a little bit and passed him over to Phoebe, and
a part of that process, obviously, was she was passing
the placenta was there on the side of her, and
I think we were all kind of just in this
bubble of love, which was really beautiful. Pat was striking
(25:28):
Phoebe's hair and kind of, you know, saying she did
an amazing job. And there was this moment I remember
where he leant over in what I thought was him
giving her a kiss on the forehead, but something just
seemed a bit off, and in this moment that just
quickly took a turn. He lurched and kind of fell
over onto Phoebe a Archer and Phoebe at the time
(25:52):
found this untapped well of strength and pushed her husband
backwards onto a medical tray that was standing in the corner,
and you know, that went clanging and he fell on
the floor, and we were obviously kind of just standing
there shocked, going what just happened. Phoebe, you know, bless
us soul was like, oh my god, it's Pad, Okay,
it's Pad. Okay, and in the meantime, we're obviously checking
(26:14):
on Archer and Phoebe. I'm like, are you guys okay,
you guys okay. It was this, you know, six foot
man just fell onto his wife, just given birth and
our baby boys in her arms as well, and he's
you know, kind of fell on top of him, you know,
and it was just funny because the midwives and the doctors,
they just it was business as usual. They're kind of
rumming to around, got him a pillow, made sure that
(26:34):
she was okay, and then there was just this moment where,
you know, obviously I was kind of the one tending
to Phoebe at that point because Archer was being given
over to Vince Pats on the ground, and this midwife
just grabs my hand and goes he hold this, and
you know, all of a sudden, I find myself with
my hand in between my best friend's legs holding up
(26:55):
medical gauze, and I just remember looking at her and going,
I don't think our friendship can get much more close
than this.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And it's something that we now both just absolutely laugh at,
but you know, it just wow. We were both in
the moment and we.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Just were like, that's a good friend.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
It's a good friend.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Both of you are very good friends to each other.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You can't come back from that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I have said to a lot of people that becoming
a parent is the single most transformative life change that
you will have. And one of the biggest things I
always think about is up until that point, everything in
your life, every milestone in your life is about you.
After you're parent, the milestones become your child's. The first bath,
(27:45):
the first cuddle, the first kiss, the first illness, first walk,
the first walk, first words. It's all about them. And
the beauty in that is the pride that you feel
as a parent, in seeing that it's really special taking
Archer home, and you know that relationship with Phoebe after
(28:05):
bringing Archer home, obviously she's going to be a part
of your life and Archer's life forever. What does he called.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Phoebe Honey, Phoebe, Honey, Phoebe, which you know, I think
was always going to be the case regardless, you know,
sometimes as special line Phoebe in the context of obviously
kind of talking about his story and how he came
into the world. But I think that that was something
that was really important to us is to be able
to have someone like Phoebe be a part of this
(28:34):
journey and know that she would always be a part
of Archer's life and that she would always be a
part of his journey as well. And after obviously after
the birth, we you know, she was over it kind
of reversed, it flipped a little bit. She was over
our house every other day for the first few weeks.
And she's a mom of two, works full time. You know,
we get to see her as often as we can
as well, but we really have the opportunity when we
(28:56):
do see each other to look back on the journey
that we went through and reflect on it with so
much love for each other, but also so much laughter
because there were so many funny moments along the way.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
And Archer is too now almost.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Almost too and any parent, like time, takes on its
own life. Or actually, I think when you become a parent,
because as you pointed out, everything is based on minelestones
and then all of a sudden, they're too and you know,
you're getting slapped in the face because you didn't give
them a lolly for breakfast, and I think.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's oh, I got I had that argument this morning
where you.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Had an icy whole argument all more, and it's like
using gentle hands and we're not having a nice block
for breakfast. But where does time go? It just slips
away from you. And I think it's only something you
can grasp once you've become a parent. I think that
you always hear that it's like, oh, kids grabs that quickly,
or time goes so quickly, But when you're actually experiencing
that firsthand, I think is something that you only really understand.
(29:52):
Thank you so much, Matt, thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Here at Diary of a Birth, we want to answer
all your burning medical questions, and we've brought on IVF
specialist and obstetrician, doctor Bromwin Devine. I want to know,
is the IVF process any different in a surrogacy journey.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
So certainly there's a lot more screening beforehand and a
lot of psychological counseling that has to take place beforehand,
have quite a lot of meetings with the commissioning couple,
the people who are intending to be parents, or the
intended parents we sometimes call them, and a meeting with
the surrogate and the surrogate's partner, if the surrogate has
(30:32):
a partner, and then there may be a separate meeting
with the egg donor if there's a separate egg donor,
and then those people have to also all seek legal
advice and have a legal contract drawn up. They have
to have lots and lots of screening done, and they
have to see a psychologist for quite exhaustive counseling, and
so much more than the counseling we normally do for
(30:53):
say a couple who are looking to use donor sperm
or something like that. And then it needs to be
very very clear that the surrogacy process is altruistic. Even
though surrogacy has got itself a bad name and people
get really concerned that it's exploitative. In a setting where
you have someone who has altruistically or with open arms
embraced the idea of being a surrogate for someone who's
(31:16):
very dear to them, it can be a wonderful, wonderful
experience to be involved with.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I'm also curious what is an umbilical cord made of.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
It's comprised of usually three vessels, two arteries, and a vein,
and they provide the oxygen and nutrients to the baby
and also remove the waste from the baby and send
those back to the mum for the mum's body to
get rid of. So, because they are blood vessels and
they're coursing in the uterus in the fluid, the baby
(31:49):
could easily squish those and reduce blood flow or compromise
blood flow to the baby. And so they've got to
be surrounded by a funny little substance which is called
Wharton's jelly, which is a funny name, but Wharton's jelly
is like a gelatinous substance that really protects those vessels
and then stops the baby for all intents and purposes
(32:13):
squishing on those vessels and then reducing blood flow. So
the cord itself consists of a membrane, the same sort
of membrane that is within the placenta, the membrane, the
three blood vessels, usually three, sometimes the two, and then
this funny Wharton's jelly, which is why when you cut it,
at the time that you know it's time to cut
the cord, it feels so grisly or spongy.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Cassenelu Kitch
with expert input from doctor Bronwin Devine. This episode was
produced by Tom Lyon and myself Cassena lu Kit, with
audio production by Scott Stronach
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