April 22, 2025 • 35 mins
From epidural to delivery in minutes—Nikolina's second baby Leo stunned even veteran doctors with his lightning-fast arrival.
Despite a physically "cruisy" pregnancy with her children just 16 months apart, Nikolina Koevska Kharoufeh battled intense anxiety about giving birth a second time. After casually attending brunch during early contractions, her labor rapidly intensified. Just as doctors prepared for her curved spine complication during the epidural, Leo's heart rate dropped, and with a single push, he arrived—prompting one doctor to declare it the quickest birth in her 20-year career.
Nikolina's story reminds us that birth anxiety is perfectly normal the second time around, even when you've done it before.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm Cassanya Lukisch and this is diary of a birth.
There's an old adage that a woman forgets the pain
and trauma of birth so that we continue to have them.
It's nature at work. I've looked back at my own
births and gone, oh, it wasn't that bad. But let's
be real, it's hard work, and so often a woman's
(01:07):
mental health in subsequent pregnancies is overlooked. Today's mum was
riddled with anxiety when she felt pregnant for a second
time with Irish twins no less, and while she delivered
to perfectly healthy baby, that was something that played on
her mind.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
I became quite terrified of giving birth during that second pregnancy.
It was like I knew it was coming and I
kind of had these, you know, little flashbacks of what
it was like with Noah, with.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
A curve spine, making an epertural more challenging. She was
adamant on being prepared, but her little one was eager
to meet her coming into the world with a single push,
a truly express checkout. So let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hi, my name's Nicolina and this is the diary of
my birth with Leo.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Okay, So, Nikki, you had your two babies very close together.
How far apart were they?
Speaker 4 (02:08):
They ended up being sixteen months apart upon birth, so
very close.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So what was life like when you fell pregnant with Leo.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
It was challenging in the sense of I had no
time to do the things that I really leaned into
with my first pregnancy, like the excuse to have a
nap or to lay down or to work from home.
Because I was a bit too tired to hop on
the train and I was super pregnant. I just had
to go go go with Leo. So I didn't really
(02:40):
think about the pregnancy a lot. I didn't really have
time to even, you know, grasp if I was feeling
sick or anything, which I think maybe was a good
thing because I kind of skipped any of the bad symptoms.
I did have a really cruisy pregnancy, apart from a
bit of pelvic pain. I remember that was a bit
of an issue towards the end. But it's not like
(03:01):
I had time to exercise anyway because I had a
toddlers so that wasn't a problem. So I feel like
I cruised through in the sense of I wasn't thinking
or overthinking the pregnancy too much. But it was really
tricky in terms of exhaustion, in terms of having to
pick Norah up still. You know, I had to pick
him up still. He actually wasn't war until a month
(03:22):
before Leo was born, and that was tricky.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
The other thing is as well, you're not like checking
the app every five seconds, being like it's the size
of a banana, it's the size of a melon.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Yeah, I had no idea what fruit size Leo was
at any point. Of course, went to all the appropriate checkups.
But yet true second child in that he didn't get
too much attention in terms of any physical aspect of
the pregnancy. I just kept growing bigger and bigger. Things
got harder and harder when it came to Noah, And yeah,
(03:54):
we got to the end.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Some of the complications that you found with your first
pregnancy You've got a curve in your spine, how did
that affect your I guess anxiety or stresses around giving
birth to number two.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
So when I was pregnant with Noah, I was very
kind of blase about the birth. I think it was
because when you first for p you actually have no
idea what birth will be like. You have an idea
in terms of like people say it's painful, but what
does that mean? You have never felt that pain. So
(04:31):
I was very thankful for the oblivion I was living in.
So then when I got pregnant with Leo and I
realized that birth was coming, and I knew much more
about birth. I knew what a contraction felt like, I
knew how scary it was to wait for each one
and not know when they were coming, and also you know,
(04:53):
try and figure out if I was in labor. I
knew all of it. I became quite terrified of giving
birth during that second pregnancy. It was like I knew
it was coming and I kind of had these, you know,
little flashbacks of what it was like with Noah. And
then on the other side of it was as well
with Noah. Whilst you know, I'm really grateful I had
a pretty, i want to say, cruizy enough birth. With Noah.
(05:17):
I didn't have any major complications. It was a natural birth.
I didn't go into an emergency C section or anything
like that. One part of the birth was the tricky
part of my epidural. I went into Noah's birth with
no birth plan. I'm a no birth plan kind of person.
My only plan is that I want the epidural, and
I made that very clear to my midwife throughout the
(05:37):
whole thing. I think I reminded her like six seven
times every appointment. So I went in for my epidural.
I remember sitting on the side of the bed and
the doctor started doing his thing, and it kind of
went a bit silent, and he goes, hmmm, I'm going
to have to call someone in. I thought that was
really weird. Why why can't you just do it yourself?
(05:57):
And somebody else came in wheeling in an ultrasound machine,
which was weird, and I knew it was an ultrasund
machine because I had ultrasounds done. And he said that
I had a curved spine and that it was getting
quite tricky to find the point at which they need
to put the needle into the spine.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Did you know that you had a curved spine before this?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I had no idea that my spine was curved. Is
that a thing? That's what I said to the doctor.
I said, what's that? Why is that an issue? And
he just said, it's you know, it's just slightly curved
to a particular side. It's not an issue. But obviously
it makes a trickier to get this needle in. So
that was a real big surprise at the time. Luckily
(06:41):
the ultrasound machine helped. Took a little bit longer, but
we got the epidural in and I didn't have any
issues from then on. But knowing that, when I fell
pregnant with Leo and went into my second midwife appointment
for his birth, I was very clear with her. I said,
I had this thing with my spine in my first berth.
I really don't want it to happen again. Can we
(07:03):
flag that now with the doctors, with whoever needs to know?
And I actually ended up having an appointment one on
one with the anethethist and you know, had a really
good one on one chat and they spoke to me
about you know, they're very well prepared. They have my
scans and it'll all be fine. But that was also
terrifying because I thought, what if I other issue comes
up with the epidural.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, so you've got that in the back of your head.
You're having a pretty good pregnancy generally though, like any
other issues throughout your pregnancy.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
No, I think it all came down to, you know,
that pelvic pain at the end. It was in bed
for quite a bit of the last few weeks when
I could obviously toddler running around was limited, but I
was Whilst physically fine, I was quite terrified. So the
countdown started to become like very obvious that last month
that birth was coming, which meant contractions are coming, which
(07:52):
meant labour's coming. I just knew that was coming, and
that was getting quite overwhelming, and I was getting quite
anxious about that and when it would happen. Because the
other part of it is Noah was induced, so I
also didn't know what it was like to naturally go
into labor, and I was also really afraid of that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So a lot of anxiety around that. Did you have
any sort of help from anyone to kind of help
with that anxiety?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Yeah, So I ended up BacT going to therapy. During
my second pregnancy, I saw a therapist for you know,
an array of things, and that was not just about
the birth, but also about I had developed postnatal blues
with Noah, and that was something that I was also
fearful of that would come back or spring back on
me when Leo was born. But part of those therapy
(08:39):
sessions were talking through that anxiety around birth approaching and
you know, there's only so much you can do about that.
You know, people say, you know, when you get pregnant, well,
they've got to come out some way. So I knew
he had to come out, but I tried to, you know,
be super positive about it. I tried to remind myself
that I had a pretty positive first birth, that things
would be okay, that I was taking the precautions, I
(09:01):
was speaking to the doctors about my concerns, and I
was just kind of hoping for the best by the
end of it.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Did you have a plan with Leo? Was there a
birth plan for him?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
So my birth plan was very much the same in
I was happy to try going to natural labor. I
understood that the first time I needed to be induced,
but I did want to. I don't want to say
avoid that the second time around, but I think just
you know, the less intervention possible, the better. So that
was a goal of mine. I would say, but I'm
(09:36):
happy to leave it to the doctors. I know their professionals.
I know it was a really good hospital. But again,
my major reminder for my midwife was that I wanted
that epidural ready to go. It's funny about epidurals because
I think I admire so many of my friends who
have gone into natural labor, not used any pain medication
or any help in that sense. But I'm very much
(09:57):
of the thinking of if I have a headache, I
take a pat at all, Like I'm not sitting through
that headache.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I'm so with you, Nicky, I'm so with you.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
So in my mind, for me, it did not make
sense not to get an epidural. I was all for it.
I was like, have that ready to go, And to
the point at which I remember when I went into
the label with Leo, I was kind of walking down
the hallway and I was like, yeah, telling it at
my midwife, like I'm here and I'm ready for the epidural.
I'm ready for the epidural. You were fixator.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, Okay. So you get towards the end of your
pregnancy with Leo, You've got this anxiety of what's going
to happen this time around? Did you go into labor
naturally with him?
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So? I did go into labor naturally with Leo, and
it was a super casual. Monday, I was at home
with Noah. It was my one day at home with
him during the week because I was working at a time,
and I had plans with friends. I had brunch plans,
and I was not canceling my brunch plans because you know,
as a mum, you just get no time to see
(10:59):
your friends. So I'd made these plans and I thought,
I'm definitely going to brunch today. But my contractions very
you know, low level contractors started in the morning, probably
about an hour before brunch.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
How far along were you? Where were you at?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
I was at about thirty eight weeks with Leo. Okay, yeah,
brunches on, I'm not care And my midwife said the
same thing, Go to brunch, go for a walk. It
was down the road. You'll be fine. It's low level contractions.
They're very far apart, and give me a call, you know,
once you finished. So I did. I actually walked. I
pushed the pram with not wanting it to brunch. I
(11:36):
told my friends, who none of them had kids at
the time, so they were petrified the whole lunch. They
were just watching for my water to break like in
the movies. I had to remind them that that's not
actually that common. But we had brunch. I had a
great meal, and then I walked back and that's kind
of when things started to ramp up when I had
gotten home. So I called my husband, he had come
(11:56):
home from work, just to you know, be safe. But again,
my midwife was super chill, so she just said, it's
going to take a really long time. You know, you
haven't done it naturally yet. This is what happens. It
takes a while. You need to stay home for as
long as possible and keep comfortable. You know. I love
being in the hospital because I like to know that
there's help around me. So that was also hard for
(12:18):
me because I was quite anxious. But you know, midwives
know what they're talking about. So I thought, I'll just
stay at home. And you know, it is more comfortable
to lay in bed than it is to sit on
a chair or you know, walk around a maternity ward
feeling contractions, so I did stay home. I watched a
bit of Kardashians. I got a couple of episodes in,
and then it was pretty much go time. I could
(12:39):
feel it quite a bit at that time, and I
was very calm by that point. My anxiety didn't really
peek through too much. But when it started to get
quite painful, I then started to get quite anxious being
at home and not being at the hospital and not
having my epidural, and you know, just knowing that there
was a lot to come. Still there was still getting
(13:01):
to the hospital. They were still getting into the room,
you know, ordering an epidural, getting checked, how many centemonies
are you dilated? Again? This was that anxiety of knowing
what went down and knowing that that's about to come,
and that's really daunting. So I started to feel that
and I just wanted to get to the hospital. At
that point.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
It sounds like the anxiety of knowing what it was
like last time really like overtook you, which is so
normal with so many women. You know, we obviously have
a lot of fear around the first time that we
give birth, but if you have something that not necessarily
goes wrong the first time, it kind of lingers if
(13:39):
you've got to go do it all again.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Yeah, you know, I remember my husband. I said to him,
I'm just like, I'm really scared. I said, I'm really scared.
I know these contractions are going to get worse, and
you know, being really nice and trying to be really supportive,
he said, but it'll be fine, Like you've done it before,
so you can do it again. And I just turned
to him and I said, so, if you broke your leg,
would you do it again? You know, would you do
(14:02):
it again?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No?
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Okay, but I didn't have a choice. But I have,
I've felt pain, and I know that pain's coming back around.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So he got a bit of a grilling.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, there's no one that you hate more than your
partner when you're in labor.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
I despise.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So when did you decide to go into the hospital.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
So it had probably been about two or three hours
since I had gone to brunch, so a couple of hours.
I still thought I probably was going in a little
bit early. But again something in me. I was really anxious.
I was uncomfortable at home. It was getting more painful. Again.
I hadn't experienced a natural labor yet, So whilst my
(14:43):
midwife was telling me to time out these contractions, I thought,
am I even doing this right? Am I timing it right?
What if it's quicker than I'm timing it? What if
it's worse? What if it's coming really soon? I think,
looking back now, that was my body saying you need
to get to the hospital. Because I didn't realize how
quickly it was about to happen after that. So yeah,
I said to my husband, let's just get to the hospital.
They're not going to kick me out, even though my
(15:04):
midwife said stay home. And so yeah, we got into
the car. In the car is when things really like
ramped up. I was screaming out of that car. We
had timed it. It was that twelve minute drive or
whatever it was, but it felt like a year in
that car. I felt like I was on some sort
of a road trip. I just kept saying, like, just
(15:25):
get to this hospital. Looking back now, a bad idea,
but don't worry about the red light speed through there.
Get me to this hospital. I was not just in
like immense pain, Like those contractions were at a level
that I hadn't felt before because I was obviously further
along than I had gotten with Noah without an epidural.
(15:46):
But I was also getting really scared because I was
in a car, and you know, you hear those stories
about people having babies in cars, so you're like, I
don't want to be the person having a baby on
the side of the road. Get me to this hospital.
So I was really scared, and I was in a
lot of pain.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So you get to the hospital. Obviously the baby didn't
come in the car. They check you in, you're in
the room, and you are immediately like, get me that epidural.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Yeah. So when I got to the hospital, and this
would have been maybe I'm talking like an hour so
between we parked the car, my husband slowly gets me
up to lift up to the hallway. As I'm in
the hallway, I'm stopping every three steps for a contraction,
Like I'm in a lot of pain. I'm thinking, oh
my gosh, this is really ramping up. This is really
ramping up. I can't even walk. But again, nobody around
(16:34):
me was very alarmed, Like the midwives even were like, oh, yeah,
you're fine, Like they were timing it, and it didn't
seem like it was too frequent. In their minds, and
you know, I had just gotten there. They had already
been informed by my midwife that I was coming, so
they knew the background of it. Had only been three
or four hours. But as I was walking through the
hallway and the midwife met me in the hallway, I
(16:55):
remember yelling at her again, feel so bad about this
later and you know, she was very sweet about it,
and they probably get this all the time, but you know, saying,
I really want my EPI dural, I really want my
API dural, and that's all I said. I didn't even
introduce myself because this midwife wasn't my midwife. My midwife
wasn't another berth that night. I didn't even introduce myself,
which I felt really bad, but I just said, all
(17:15):
I want is my EPI durol. I'm really scared right now.
I can't handle this pain. Can you order it? Very
nice midwives. I don't know how they do their job
and get through all of that, but you know, she said,
it's fine, I'm ordering it right now. So I sat down,
got in my gown, and within maybe ten minutes they
were in there, ready to go, ultrasound machine and everything.
(17:36):
They were super prepared for my curved spine.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
But they go to do your epidural with your curve spine,
they're all prepared. You're in agony. But there was a
little bit of a problem.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
It was really weird because when I sat for my epidural,
and again this is like flashback to your first birth right,
I kind of knew how I had to sit. You know,
people don't tell you that when you're sitting for an
epi driel. You have to do super steel. You have
to sit on the side of the bed, you have
to like have a really straight back. There's a lot
of rules. There's a lot of rules for it to
go right, and you have to tell them if a
(18:10):
contraction's coming so that they don't do it in that moment.
There's a lot of formalities about the epi durol, and
something about me sitting was really weird, Like I was
very uncomfortable my bottom area, like you know, where it
all happens. But I didn't really think anything of it
because I just thought, let's just get this epidurol in,
you know, that was like my aim. They just said, yep,
(18:32):
let's do the EPI drool. You'll be fine. So I
didn't really say anything. Little did I know that was
Leo dropped kind of waiting in that area, not out,
but very nearly out.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
So they didn't even have a chance to sort of
check you.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Well, they checked me when I just got to the hospital,
and I hadn't been that dilated, so I think at
that point I was about five centimeters.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
That's still pretty significant.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yes, And I remember the rule was with no at least.
What I was told was that they try and get
you to more than four centimeters for you to get
an epidool because then it can slow things down, so
they want you above four. So I was like, great,
five epidurol back on that. So I ticked that box.
So within that thirty to forty minutes, Leo had just gone, well,
(19:20):
actually no, I want ten centimeters. And yeah, he was there.
He was basically ready. I wasn't because I hadn't you know,
even laid down up. Next, I looked at my husband
and he looked at me and he goes, you got
to push, push, and all fifteen doctors like, you got
to push. He's there now. So I just did this
really big push what I thought was a push, and
(19:43):
she goes, yep one more and before I even got
to the second push bang, he was out.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Okay, So when did you realize that Leo was about
to come out?
Speaker 4 (19:59):
So after the epidural, that was the best part of
my first berth, Like, let's be honest, you know that
relief that you feel instantly. And something that was really
surprising with Noah. I don't know if you had this,
was that I was told to have a nap after
my epi dural because at the time I was about
that just over four centimeters and you know, they had assumed, well,
(20:21):
you still got a little while to go. Why don't
you have a bit of a rest now that you're
out of that pain. So I had laid down with
no one had a nap. That was what I was
ready to do with Leo. So I get this every
draw the doctors leave, I lay down proper, snuggle myself
into the bed. Midwife's like, great, I'll be here if
you need anything and walks away. Within a couple of minutes,
(20:43):
the machine next to me starts buzzing and it was
his heart rate. So very quickly it went from this
dim lit room, everyone's ready to nap and just you know,
wait for a few hours and see what happens to
It was like the movies, like fifteen doctors rushing into
the room. I was instantly in like panic, you know.
(21:09):
The midwife said, his heart rates dropping. My husband pops
up from his allocated seat, and that was really scary
because it was such a contrast. Everybody was really chill,
everybody was ready to wait, and all of a sudden
something was going on. So that was the first moment
that we realized something was not right.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
All of a sudden, everyone comes in. What's the first
thing that the nurses and doctors do when they see
that decreased heart rate?
Speaker 4 (21:37):
So the doctor at the time said, I'm gonna need
to put my hand in and check what's going on
and just check to see where he is. So she
puts her hand in and instantly goes, oh, you've got
to push, Nicolina, You've got to push now, like yelling
at me, like she was like my mom. She goes,
(22:00):
you have to push right now. I looked at my
husband and he looked at me and he goes, you
got to push. Push, and all fifteen doctors like, you've
got to push. He's there now. So I just did
this really big push. What I thought was a push
and she goes yep, one more and before I even
got to a second push, bang, he was out. So
(22:24):
within I think it was twenty minutes. I was like
in my cuddled up bed, ready to take him out
with my beautiful epidural in too. Leah was there, he
was in my arms, he was crying. There's fifteen doctors
in the room.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So they obviously looked and his head was there. He
was crowning and it was just like a matter of
a click, and you must be a great pusher.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yeah, I would like to think it was a really
good pusher, I think. And what we had resolved after
talking to the midwife is I think that I was
sitting on his head in a sense when I was
sitting for my epidural. So I think in the moments
between I got checked and sat down and got in
my gown and sat down for the epidural, he had
proper dropped and was ready to go. That's why I
(23:10):
was uncomfortable at the time. But you know, like I'm
uncomfortable because I'm in labor. I don't know that it's
him there, and so when I just laid back down,
he was like no, no, no, get back up. You need
to get me out of here. This is a story
that I don't try and tell too often because it
is I'm kind of like the woman people hate because
it was one push and he was out, and I
(23:31):
don't want to, you know, complain about it, because that,
in a sense, you know, was a great relief because
I was so anxious and terrified of the birth itself.
It was kind of funny that it was over so quickly,
but that in itself was really scary because in the
moment when I remember all the doctors said you need
to push now, it was like I was the only
one that could fix that situation. So it was like
(23:51):
all writing on me in that moment, and everybody was
staring at me to like perform, and that was very scary.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I absolutely completely understand. It is terrifying in any scenario
he comes out in one push. You're obviously in a
lot of shock at this point. How did you feel
when they put him. I'm assuming they just put him
straight onto your chest.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yeah, so they did, but they did have to check
his heart rate because liarly he had been in distress
because he was ready to go and he wasn't being
pushed out. But within a couple of minutes kind of
all the doctors had dissipated out of the room because
I guess their job was done right. They had come in,
they checked the baby's heartwaate, it was fine and the
baby was here, So it was again we just went
back to that lull really quickly, and that's when we
(24:38):
kind of had to come to terms with what had
just happened. You know, it's all the things that I remembered.
You had to give birth to the placenta and do
those little bits and pieces. Luckily, because he had basically
slipped out, I had no tearing, which was really nice
because I had tearing with Noah. And then, yeah, it
was about coming to terms with what had happened. And
(24:59):
for a little while there as well, I felt like
quite guilty because I thought, well, oh gosh, you know,
I just sat on his head and I just I
didn't even know he was there. So there was a
lot of that. But the midwife was great. She said,
you know, it's not up to you to even know that.
You couldn't have ever figured that out. Let's just be
thankful that it was all fine. And he came out,
(25:19):
and he clearly he was just very eager to come
at you.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
So Nicholas is obviously like standing there about to take
a nap, and then there's a baby there.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
What was his reaction. It's funny because I think men's
reactions and feelings in that labor room are sometimes dismissed.
You know, you're really angry at them at the time
they're not very helpful, or even if they're trying to
be helpful, they're not being helpful. So he at the
time was very shocked as well, and he felt that
helplessness when all the doctors rushed in, So he was like,
what's happened, what's happened? You know, that confusion, And then
(25:51):
when things kind of come down and we had realized, okay,
he's here, Wow, nobody's having a nap. This is our
second child. We know, you know that there's no naps
from now to the next five years. So that was
a bit slightly annoying for the both of us, who
thought we were going to get arrest not just from
our toddler, but from you know, giving birth for a
little while. But at one point I think we just
started kind of laughing about it because it was so
(26:13):
hilarious that it went down the way it did, And
the best part of the moment that it happened was
one of the doctors yelling out, wow, that was the
quickest berth I have ever seen, and I have been
in this industry for twenty years. I felt like there
was quite an achievement. Actually, everybody was very stunned.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
So even the doctors were like, this was insanely fast.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Yeah. The doctors were I think even more surprised because
of course they had checked me forty five minutes before that,
so there had been this rapid progression of my dilation
and LEO coming down into the canal. So they were
stunned by the entire thing.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And how was your recovery? Did you feel okay after it?
Were you sort of up and moving around?
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah, recovery was pretty fine. I was very lucky with recovery,
especially because I guess he had slipped out so quickly
that I didn't need those stitches, and I know during
my first pregnancy, man, those stitches were just the weeks after.
It was just going to pee is a struggle. Everything's
a struggle. Why being's a struggle? Gosh, It's just a struggle.
(27:20):
So I was very thankful that I didn't have to
deal with those stitches. But so I had only done
my strep beat a week before and my results hadn't
come back in yet. So within a couple of hours
of giving birth and we've all settled in and we've
realized he's here, and everybody's calmed down, and we're all
laughing about it and we're sending photos to our family,
the midwife actually came and said my test results had
(27:41):
come back and I was actually positive, which was also
a shock. I was negative the first time and I
didn't actually know what that meant. So we did have
to stay in the hospital a little bit longer than
we intended, because when you are positive, you need to
have a round of antibiotics and your child also needs
to be monitored for longer. Luckily, everything was completely fine,
and you don't want to be honest, I wasn't complaining
(28:03):
for an extra night in the hospital at home with
the newborn baby that was sleeping a lot in those
first couple of days when my todd lot was back
at home not sleeping, So we stayed a little bit longer.
So that kind of also helped with just you know,
quietening down, coming to the realization he's here, the birth's done.
Everybody is fine.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
You said to me in your email when you wrote
to us that what you really wanted people to know
is that that fear and anxiety is something that you
weren't quite anticipating. So can you tell us a bit
about that.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Yeah, I think that everybody in the first birth is
very focused on planning. So you know, we do all
the classes. We do a birth in class, do the
breathing class, we do this and that, and there's a
lot of focus put on that, and you kind of
get to your birth and whatever birth you have is
a different experience. And maybe you didn't even use your
(28:56):
birth plan. Maybe you did use your birth plan. There's
just a lot of importance put on that and then
it kind of just fades away. But a lot of
people will have a second child, a lot of people
will have a third child. So when I started to
be quite scared of birth, I didn't really tell anyone
because I thought it was quite embarrassing, because I thought
people will think, why is she scared of birth? She's
(29:16):
already done it, you know, And a lot of people
would say that, oh, you've already done it before. So
you could be fine the second time around, but deep
down I was proper terrified, Like I was anxious about
I've had nightmares about it, about how it would go down,
where it would go down, how bad the pain would
be again, whether the every dura would work, whether you know,
(29:37):
I'd be paralyzed from the every dural because it was
so scary getting it and staying still. There's so many
elements that you now know about birth that you didn't before.
So in the first pregnancy, you're not stressing about those things.
All you're stressing about is put together a birth plan
and figure out your breathing and just go with the
flow and see how it goes, because you don't know
how it will go, but you know every element of
(30:00):
birth going into your second berth. So that was terrifying
for me. So I was very relieved once it was finished.
And again I think it was just ironic that it
was so quick after. I think it was kind of
a way perhaps even that Leo was like, right, I'll
make this super easy for your mum, because I know
you're really really scared.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I completely relate to you, and I think that I've
heard some incredible stories about women who have this real
calm peace, like very relaxed and positive mindsets. But for
us anxious people, it can be really, really scary, and
I think it's really important to talk about it and
(30:42):
to kind of think about the ways that we can
combat that. Whether it's in the lead up and obviously
you saw a therapist, obviously you had people to talk to,
but I do think it's really important to note that
just because you've done it once doesn't mean that you're
not allowed to be afraid again.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, And the thing that people tell you is every
birth is so different, right, So part of that fear
as well was that, well, Noah's birth was, you know,
pretty cruisy, and I felt really lucky and I thought
it went really well. It was positive. I ended up
getting what I wanted in the end in terms of
pain medication, and I thought, maybe I'm not going to
get that again, because maybe you only get one good birth.
(31:21):
So I thought I was out of tokens and I thought, well,
this one's not going to go great. And it was
definitely different. I thought, well, maybe there will be complications
this time around. I didn't have a complication the first
time around. I wasn't prepared for how much my mind
would run in terms of what could have gone wrong,
how you know, bad it was going to hurt this
(31:42):
time around, if things would work the same, if things
would go differently. That was quite terrifying. But I think
the main thing I tried to focus on was getting
over the embarrassment first of all, very quickly, and I
just started talking about it. I told my husband about it.
I told my sister about it, and you know, I
told other mums about it, and they said the same thing.
(32:02):
So I was like, why isn't anybody talking about this?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I relate to you very very much.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
You know, we keep everything inside all the time. We
just need to talk about how shitty aspects of this is.
So they did, and that was very helpful. So, you know,
once I started talk about it, once I started to
talking my therapist about it, I realized that it was
actually pretty normal and common. That was very helpful. You
never want to feel like you're the only one with
(32:30):
that fear and that anxiety, and you know, I'm being
ridiculous and nobody else would think this way as soon
as other people are in your boat, you know, you're
not wishing that upon people, but you're like, great, we're
a team.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Thank you so much, Nicholina, if you're telling us your story,
really appreciate it, and thank you so much for your
candor and you know, just being really honest about it.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Yeah, of course, thank you so much for giving me
the opportunity to tell the story.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I relate to Nicolina in a lot of ways, having
struggled with anxiety through both my pregnancies. I was curious
about the medical implications, so we've enlisted obstetrician and gynecologist
doctor Bromin Devine to give us some of the facts. So,
if you're in any sort of medication pre pregnancy, is
it safe to continue when you get those two lines.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
This is a great question because lots and lots of
people are on medication now for anxiety and depression. In
the past, some of the medication that was used was
not usually recommended in pregnancy, but the class of drugs
that we use now to treat anxiety and depression are
generally regarded as safe in pregnancy. There are some effects
(33:47):
that they can have. They don't cause birth defects or
anything like that, but they can be associated with it
slightly increased risk of leading when you've had a baby,
So postpartum hemorrhage, and they can also be associated with
a slightly increased risk of respiratory distress in the newborn,
which means that the baby has a fast breathing rate
(34:08):
and sometimes needs to be on a little bit of
oxygen in the nursery for a few hours after birth.
But that's not consistent across all people who are taking
those medications. The thing that we say, though, we know
really clearly that people's mental health should be as good
as it can be in the antiinatal period, because if
(34:28):
it isn't, then that's a real marker for postnatal depression.
And postnatal depression has so many and so does antiinatal
depression and anxiety. But postnatal depression and anxiety has so
many effects on the neurodevelopmental health of the child and
bonding between the child and the mum, and lots of
(34:49):
far reaching effects. So what we say these days is
if you need to be on medication to optimize your
mental health in the antiinatal period, then it's best to
be on that medication. And if that keeps you as
good as you can be, that's fantastic. And we really
take people's mental health anti natally and postnatally, very very seriously.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me kasenular Kitsch
with expert input from doctor Bronwin Devine and while we
have you, We're on the hunt to share powerful, underrepresented
stories from people of all cultures, backgrounds, and debilities. If
your birth story felt different, please reach out. Details are
in the show notes. This episode was produced by Tina
(35:39):
Matalov and myself Casseni Lukich, with audio production by Leah
Porgies
You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm Cassanya Lukisch and this is diary of a birth.
There's an old adage that a woman forgets the pain
and trauma of birth so that we continue to have them.
It's nature at work. I've looked back at my own
births and gone, oh, it wasn't that bad. But let's
be real, it's hard work, and so often a woman's
(01:07):
mental health in subsequent pregnancies is overlooked. Today's mum was
riddled with anxiety when she felt pregnant for a second
time with Irish twins no less, and while she delivered
to perfectly healthy baby, that was something that played on
her mind.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
I became quite terrified of giving birth during that second pregnancy.
It was like I knew it was coming and I
kind of had these, you know, little flashbacks of what
it was like with Noah, with.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
A curve spine, making an epertural more challenging. She was
adamant on being prepared, but her little one was eager
to meet her coming into the world with a single push,
a truly express checkout. So let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hi, my name's Nicolina and this is the diary of
my birth with Leo.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Okay, So, Nikki, you had your two babies very close together.
How far apart were they?
Speaker 4 (02:08):
They ended up being sixteen months apart upon birth, so
very close.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
So what was life like when you fell pregnant with Leo.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
It was challenging in the sense of I had no
time to do the things that I really leaned into
with my first pregnancy, like the excuse to have a
nap or to lay down or to work from home.
Because I was a bit too tired to hop on
the train and I was super pregnant. I just had
to go go go with Leo. So I didn't really
(02:40):
think about the pregnancy a lot. I didn't really have
time to even, you know, grasp if I was feeling
sick or anything, which I think maybe was a good
thing because I kind of skipped any of the bad symptoms.
I did have a really cruisy pregnancy, apart from a
bit of pelvic pain. I remember that was a bit
of an issue towards the end. But it's not like
(03:01):
I had time to exercise anyway because I had a
toddlers so that wasn't a problem. So I feel like
I cruised through in the sense of I wasn't thinking
or overthinking the pregnancy too much. But it was really
tricky in terms of exhaustion, in terms of having to
pick Norah up still. You know, I had to pick
him up still. He actually wasn't war until a month
(03:22):
before Leo was born, and that was tricky.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
The other thing is as well, you're not like checking
the app every five seconds, being like it's the size
of a banana, it's the size of a melon.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Yeah, I had no idea what fruit size Leo was
at any point. Of course, went to all the appropriate checkups.
But yet true second child in that he didn't get
too much attention in terms of any physical aspect of
the pregnancy. I just kept growing bigger and bigger. Things
got harder and harder when it came to Noah, And yeah,
(03:54):
we got to the end.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Some of the complications that you found with your first
pregnancy You've got a curve in your spine, how did
that affect your I guess anxiety or stresses around giving
birth to number two.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
So when I was pregnant with Noah, I was very
kind of blase about the birth. I think it was
because when you first for p you actually have no
idea what birth will be like. You have an idea
in terms of like people say it's painful, but what
does that mean? You have never felt that pain. So
(04:31):
I was very thankful for the oblivion I was living in.
So then when I got pregnant with Leo and I
realized that birth was coming, and I knew much more
about birth. I knew what a contraction felt like, I
knew how scary it was to wait for each one
and not know when they were coming, and also you know,
(04:53):
try and figure out if I was in labor. I
knew all of it. I became quite terrified of giving
birth during that second pregnancy. It was like I knew
it was coming and I kind of had these, you know,
little flashbacks of what it was like with Noah. And
then on the other side of it was as well
with Noah. Whilst you know, I'm really grateful I had
a pretty, i want to say, cruizy enough birth. With Noah.
(05:17):
I didn't have any major complications. It was a natural birth.
I didn't go into an emergency C section or anything
like that. One part of the birth was the tricky
part of my epidural. I went into Noah's birth with
no birth plan. I'm a no birth plan kind of person.
My only plan is that I want the epidural, and
I made that very clear to my midwife throughout the
(05:37):
whole thing. I think I reminded her like six seven
times every appointment. So I went in for my epidural.
I remember sitting on the side of the bed and
the doctor started doing his thing, and it kind of
went a bit silent, and he goes, hmmm, I'm going
to have to call someone in. I thought that was
really weird. Why why can't you just do it yourself?
(05:57):
And somebody else came in wheeling in an ultrasound machine,
which was weird, and I knew it was an ultrasund
machine because I had ultrasounds done. And he said that
I had a curved spine and that it was getting
quite tricky to find the point at which they need
to put the needle into the spine.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Did you know that you had a curved spine before this?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I had no idea that my spine was curved. Is
that a thing? That's what I said to the doctor.
I said, what's that? Why is that an issue? And
he just said, it's you know, it's just slightly curved
to a particular side. It's not an issue. But obviously
it makes a trickier to get this needle in. So
that was a real big surprise at the time. Luckily
(06:41):
the ultrasound machine helped. Took a little bit longer, but
we got the epidural in and I didn't have any
issues from then on. But knowing that, when I fell
pregnant with Leo and went into my second midwife appointment
for his birth, I was very clear with her. I said,
I had this thing with my spine in my first berth.
I really don't want it to happen again. Can we
(07:03):
flag that now with the doctors, with whoever needs to know?
And I actually ended up having an appointment one on
one with the anethethist and you know, had a really
good one on one chat and they spoke to me
about you know, they're very well prepared. They have my
scans and it'll all be fine. But that was also
terrifying because I thought, what if I other issue comes
up with the epidural.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, so you've got that in the back of your head.
You're having a pretty good pregnancy generally though, like any
other issues throughout your pregnancy.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
No, I think it all came down to, you know,
that pelvic pain at the end. It was in bed
for quite a bit of the last few weeks when
I could obviously toddler running around was limited, but I
was Whilst physically fine, I was quite terrified. So the
countdown started to become like very obvious that last month
that birth was coming, which meant contractions are coming, which
(07:52):
meant labour's coming. I just knew that was coming, and
that was getting quite overwhelming, and I was getting quite
anxious about that and when it would happen. Because the
other part of it is Noah was induced, so I
also didn't know what it was like to naturally go
into labor, and I was also really afraid of that.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So a lot of anxiety around that. Did you have
any sort of help from anyone to kind of help
with that anxiety?
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Yeah, So I ended up BacT going to therapy. During
my second pregnancy, I saw a therapist for you know,
an array of things, and that was not just about
the birth, but also about I had developed postnatal blues
with Noah, and that was something that I was also
fearful of that would come back or spring back on
me when Leo was born. But part of those therapy
(08:39):
sessions were talking through that anxiety around birth approaching and
you know, there's only so much you can do about that.
You know, people say, you know, when you get pregnant, well,
they've got to come out some way. So I knew
he had to come out, but I tried to, you know,
be super positive about it. I tried to remind myself
that I had a pretty positive first birth, that things
would be okay, that I was taking the precautions, I
(09:01):
was speaking to the doctors about my concerns, and I
was just kind of hoping for the best by the
end of it.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Did you have a plan with Leo? Was there a
birth plan for him?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
So my birth plan was very much the same in
I was happy to try going to natural labor. I
understood that the first time I needed to be induced,
but I did want to. I don't want to say
avoid that the second time around, but I think just
you know, the less intervention possible, the better. So that
was a goal of mine. I would say, but I'm
(09:36):
happy to leave it to the doctors. I know their professionals.
I know it was a really good hospital. But again,
my major reminder for my midwife was that I wanted
that epidural ready to go. It's funny about epidurals because
I think I admire so many of my friends who
have gone into natural labor, not used any pain medication
or any help in that sense. But I'm very much
(09:57):
of the thinking of if I have a headache, I
take a pat at all, Like I'm not sitting through
that headache.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I'm so with you, Nicky, I'm so with you.
Speaker 4 (10:05):
So in my mind, for me, it did not make
sense not to get an epidural. I was all for it.
I was like, have that ready to go, And to
the point at which I remember when I went into
the label with Leo, I was kind of walking down
the hallway and I was like, yeah, telling it at
my midwife, like I'm here and I'm ready for the epidural.
I'm ready for the epidural. You were fixator.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, Okay. So you get towards the end of your
pregnancy with Leo, You've got this anxiety of what's going
to happen this time around? Did you go into labor
naturally with him?
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So? I did go into labor naturally with Leo, and
it was a super casual. Monday, I was at home
with Noah. It was my one day at home with
him during the week because I was working at a time,
and I had plans with friends. I had brunch plans,
and I was not canceling my brunch plans because you know,
as a mum, you just get no time to see
(10:59):
your friends. So I'd made these plans and I thought,
I'm definitely going to brunch today. But my contractions very
you know, low level contractors started in the morning, probably
about an hour before brunch.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
How far along were you? Where were you at?
Speaker 4 (11:15):
I was at about thirty eight weeks with Leo. Okay, yeah,
brunches on, I'm not care And my midwife said the
same thing, Go to brunch, go for a walk. It
was down the road. You'll be fine. It's low level contractions.
They're very far apart, and give me a call, you know,
once you finished. So I did. I actually walked. I
pushed the pram with not wanting it to brunch. I
(11:36):
told my friends, who none of them had kids at
the time, so they were petrified the whole lunch. They
were just watching for my water to break like in
the movies. I had to remind them that that's not
actually that common. But we had brunch. I had a
great meal, and then I walked back and that's kind
of when things started to ramp up when I had
gotten home. So I called my husband, he had come
(11:56):
home from work, just to you know, be safe. But again,
my midwife was super chill, so she just said, it's
going to take a really long time. You know, you
haven't done it naturally yet. This is what happens. It
takes a while. You need to stay home for as
long as possible and keep comfortable. You know. I love
being in the hospital because I like to know that
there's help around me. So that was also hard for
(12:18):
me because I was quite anxious. But you know, midwives
know what they're talking about. So I thought, I'll just
stay at home. And you know, it is more comfortable
to lay in bed than it is to sit on
a chair or you know, walk around a maternity ward
feeling contractions, so I did stay home. I watched a
bit of Kardashians. I got a couple of episodes in,
and then it was pretty much go time. I could
(12:39):
feel it quite a bit at that time, and I
was very calm by that point. My anxiety didn't really
peek through too much. But when it started to get
quite painful, I then started to get quite anxious being
at home and not being at the hospital and not
having my epidural, and you know, just knowing that there
was a lot to come. Still there was still getting
(13:01):
to the hospital. They were still getting into the room,
you know, ordering an epidural, getting checked, how many centemonies
are you dilated? Again? This was that anxiety of knowing
what went down and knowing that that's about to come,
and that's really daunting. So I started to feel that
and I just wanted to get to the hospital. At
that point.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
It sounds like the anxiety of knowing what it was
like last time really like overtook you, which is so
normal with so many women. You know, we obviously have
a lot of fear around the first time that we
give birth, but if you have something that not necessarily
goes wrong the first time, it kind of lingers if
(13:39):
you've got to go do it all again.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Yeah, you know, I remember my husband. I said to him,
I'm just like, I'm really scared. I said, I'm really scared.
I know these contractions are going to get worse, and
you know, being really nice and trying to be really supportive,
he said, but it'll be fine, Like you've done it before,
so you can do it again. And I just turned
to him and I said, so, if you broke your leg,
would you do it again? You know, would you do
(14:02):
it again?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No?
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Okay, but I didn't have a choice. But I have,
I've felt pain, and I know that pain's coming back around.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So he got a bit of a grilling.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, there's no one that you hate more than your
partner when you're in labor.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
I despise.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So when did you decide to go into the hospital.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
So it had probably been about two or three hours
since I had gone to brunch, so a couple of hours.
I still thought I probably was going in a little
bit early. But again something in me. I was really anxious.
I was uncomfortable at home. It was getting more painful. Again.
I hadn't experienced a natural labor yet, So whilst my
(14:43):
midwife was telling me to time out these contractions, I thought,
am I even doing this right? Am I timing it right?
What if it's quicker than I'm timing it? What if
it's worse? What if it's coming really soon? I think,
looking back now, that was my body saying you need
to get to the hospital. Because I didn't realize how
quickly it was about to happen after that. So yeah,
I said to my husband, let's just get to the hospital.
They're not going to kick me out, even though my
(15:04):
midwife said stay home. And so yeah, we got into
the car. In the car is when things really like
ramped up. I was screaming out of that car. We
had timed it. It was that twelve minute drive or
whatever it was, but it felt like a year in
that car. I felt like I was on some sort
of a road trip. I just kept saying, like, just
(15:25):
get to this hospital. Looking back now, a bad idea,
but don't worry about the red light speed through there.
Get me to this hospital. I was not just in
like immense pain, Like those contractions were at a level
that I hadn't felt before because I was obviously further
along than I had gotten with Noah without an epidural.
(15:46):
But I was also getting really scared because I was
in a car, and you know, you hear those stories
about people having babies in cars, so you're like, I
don't want to be the person having a baby on
the side of the road. Get me to this hospital.
So I was really scared, and I was in a
lot of pain.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So you get to the hospital. Obviously the baby didn't
come in the car. They check you in, you're in
the room, and you are immediately like, get me that epidural.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Yeah. So when I got to the hospital, and this
would have been maybe I'm talking like an hour so
between we parked the car, my husband slowly gets me
up to lift up to the hallway. As I'm in
the hallway, I'm stopping every three steps for a contraction,
Like I'm in a lot of pain. I'm thinking, oh
my gosh, this is really ramping up. This is really
ramping up. I can't even walk. But again, nobody around
(16:34):
me was very alarmed, Like the midwives even were like, oh, yeah,
you're fine, Like they were timing it, and it didn't
seem like it was too frequent. In their minds, and
you know, I had just gotten there. They had already
been informed by my midwife that I was coming, so
they knew the background of it. Had only been three
or four hours. But as I was walking through the
hallway and the midwife met me in the hallway, I
(16:55):
remember yelling at her again, feel so bad about this
later and you know, she was very sweet about it,
and they probably get this all the time, but you know, saying,
I really want my EPI dural, I really want my
API dural, and that's all I said. I didn't even
introduce myself because this midwife wasn't my midwife. My midwife
wasn't another berth that night. I didn't even introduce myself,
which I felt really bad, but I just said, all
(17:15):
I want is my EPI durol. I'm really scared right now.
I can't handle this pain. Can you order it? Very
nice midwives. I don't know how they do their job
and get through all of that, but you know, she said,
it's fine, I'm ordering it right now. So I sat down,
got in my gown, and within maybe ten minutes they
were in there, ready to go, ultrasound machine and everything.
(17:36):
They were super prepared for my curved spine.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
But they go to do your epidural with your curve spine,
they're all prepared. You're in agony. But there was a
little bit of a problem.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
It was really weird because when I sat for my epidural,
and again this is like flashback to your first birth right,
I kind of knew how I had to sit. You know,
people don't tell you that when you're sitting for an
epi driel. You have to do super steel. You have
to sit on the side of the bed, you have
to like have a really straight back. There's a lot
of rules. There's a lot of rules for it to
go right, and you have to tell them if a
(18:10):
contraction's coming so that they don't do it in that moment.
There's a lot of formalities about the epi durol, and
something about me sitting was really weird, Like I was
very uncomfortable my bottom area, like you know, where it
all happens. But I didn't really think anything of it
because I just thought, let's just get this epidurol in,
you know, that was like my aim. They just said, yep,
(18:32):
let's do the EPI drool. You'll be fine. So I
didn't really say anything. Little did I know that was
Leo dropped kind of waiting in that area, not out,
but very nearly out.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
So they didn't even have a chance to sort of
check you.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Well, they checked me when I just got to the hospital,
and I hadn't been that dilated, so I think at
that point I was about five centimeters.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
That's still pretty significant.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yes, And I remember the rule was with no at least.
What I was told was that they try and get
you to more than four centimeters for you to get
an epidool because then it can slow things down, so
they want you above four. So I was like, great,
five epidurol back on that. So I ticked that box.
So within that thirty to forty minutes, Leo had just gone, well,
(19:20):
actually no, I want ten centimeters. And yeah, he was there.
He was basically ready. I wasn't because I hadn't you know,
even laid down up. Next, I looked at my husband
and he looked at me and he goes, you got
to push, push, and all fifteen doctors like, you got
to push. He's there now. So I just did this
really big push what I thought was a push, and
(19:43):
she goes, yep one more and before I even got
to the second push bang, he was out.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Okay, So when did you realize that Leo was about
to come out?
Speaker 4 (19:59):
So after the epidural, that was the best part of
my first berth, Like, let's be honest, you know that
relief that you feel instantly. And something that was really
surprising with Noah. I don't know if you had this,
was that I was told to have a nap after
my epi dural because at the time I was about
that just over four centimeters and you know, they had assumed, well,
(20:21):
you still got a little while to go. Why don't
you have a bit of a rest now that you're
out of that pain. So I had laid down with
no one had a nap. That was what I was
ready to do with Leo. So I get this every
draw the doctors leave, I lay down proper, snuggle myself
into the bed. Midwife's like, great, I'll be here if
you need anything and walks away. Within a couple of minutes,
(20:43):
the machine next to me starts buzzing and it was
his heart rate. So very quickly it went from this
dim lit room, everyone's ready to nap and just you know,
wait for a few hours and see what happens to
It was like the movies, like fifteen doctors rushing into
the room. I was instantly in like panic, you know.
(21:09):
The midwife said, his heart rates dropping. My husband pops
up from his allocated seat, and that was really scary
because it was such a contrast. Everybody was really chill,
everybody was ready to wait, and all of a sudden
something was going on. So that was the first moment
that we realized something was not right.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
All of a sudden, everyone comes in. What's the first
thing that the nurses and doctors do when they see
that decreased heart rate?
Speaker 4 (21:37):
So the doctor at the time said, I'm gonna need
to put my hand in and check what's going on
and just check to see where he is. So she
puts her hand in and instantly goes, oh, you've got
to push, Nicolina, You've got to push now, like yelling
at me, like she was like my mom. She goes,
(22:00):
you have to push right now. I looked at my
husband and he looked at me and he goes, you
got to push. Push, and all fifteen doctors like, you've
got to push. He's there now. So I just did
this really big push. What I thought was a push
and she goes yep, one more and before I even
got to a second push, bang, he was out. So
(22:24):
within I think it was twenty minutes. I was like
in my cuddled up bed, ready to take him out
with my beautiful epidural in too. Leah was there, he
was in my arms, he was crying. There's fifteen doctors
in the room.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So they obviously looked and his head was there. He
was crowning and it was just like a matter of
a click, and you must be a great pusher.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Yeah, I would like to think it was a really
good pusher, I think. And what we had resolved after
talking to the midwife is I think that I was
sitting on his head in a sense when I was
sitting for my epidural. So I think in the moments
between I got checked and sat down and got in
my gown and sat down for the epidural, he had
proper dropped and was ready to go. That's why I
(23:10):
was uncomfortable at the time. But you know, like I'm
uncomfortable because I'm in labor. I don't know that it's
him there, and so when I just laid back down,
he was like no, no, no, get back up. You need
to get me out of here. This is a story
that I don't try and tell too often because it
is I'm kind of like the woman people hate because
it was one push and he was out, and I
(23:31):
don't want to, you know, complain about it, because that,
in a sense, you know, was a great relief because
I was so anxious and terrified of the birth itself.
It was kind of funny that it was over so quickly,
but that in itself was really scary because in the
moment when I remember all the doctors said you need
to push now, it was like I was the only
one that could fix that situation. So it was like
(23:51):
all writing on me in that moment, and everybody was
staring at me to like perform, and that was very scary.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I absolutely completely understand. It is terrifying in any scenario
he comes out in one push. You're obviously in a
lot of shock at this point. How did you feel
when they put him. I'm assuming they just put him
straight onto your chest.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yeah, so they did, but they did have to check
his heart rate because liarly he had been in distress
because he was ready to go and he wasn't being
pushed out. But within a couple of minutes kind of
all the doctors had dissipated out of the room because
I guess their job was done right. They had come in,
they checked the baby's heartwaate, it was fine and the
baby was here, So it was again we just went
back to that lull really quickly, and that's when we
(24:38):
kind of had to come to terms with what had
just happened. You know, it's all the things that I remembered.
You had to give birth to the placenta and do
those little bits and pieces. Luckily, because he had basically
slipped out, I had no tearing, which was really nice
because I had tearing with Noah. And then, yeah, it
was about coming to terms with what had happened. And
(24:59):
for a little while there as well, I felt like
quite guilty because I thought, well, oh gosh, you know,
I just sat on his head and I just I
didn't even know he was there. So there was a
lot of that. But the midwife was great. She said,
you know, it's not up to you to even know that.
You couldn't have ever figured that out. Let's just be
thankful that it was all fine. And he came out,
(25:19):
and he clearly he was just very eager to come
at you.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
So Nicholas is obviously like standing there about to take
a nap, and then there's a baby there.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
What was his reaction. It's funny because I think men's
reactions and feelings in that labor room are sometimes dismissed.
You know, you're really angry at them at the time
they're not very helpful, or even if they're trying to
be helpful, they're not being helpful. So he at the
time was very shocked as well, and he felt that
helplessness when all the doctors rushed in, So he was like,
what's happened, what's happened? You know, that confusion, And then
(25:51):
when things kind of come down and we had realized, okay,
he's here, Wow, nobody's having a nap. This is our
second child. We know, you know that there's no naps
from now to the next five years. So that was
a bit slightly annoying for the both of us, who
thought we were going to get arrest not just from
our toddler, but from you know, giving birth for a
little while. But at one point I think we just
started kind of laughing about it because it was so
(26:13):
hilarious that it went down the way it did, And
the best part of the moment that it happened was
one of the doctors yelling out, wow, that was the
quickest berth I have ever seen, and I have been
in this industry for twenty years. I felt like there
was quite an achievement. Actually, everybody was very stunned.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
So even the doctors were like, this was insanely fast.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Yeah. The doctors were I think even more surprised because
of course they had checked me forty five minutes before that,
so there had been this rapid progression of my dilation
and LEO coming down into the canal. So they were
stunned by the entire thing.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And how was your recovery? Did you feel okay after it?
Were you sort of up and moving around?
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah, recovery was pretty fine. I was very lucky with recovery,
especially because I guess he had slipped out so quickly
that I didn't need those stitches, and I know during
my first pregnancy, man, those stitches were just the weeks after.
It was just going to pee is a struggle. Everything's
a struggle. Why being's a struggle? Gosh, It's just a struggle.
(27:20):
So I was very thankful that I didn't have to
deal with those stitches. But so I had only done
my strep beat a week before and my results hadn't
come back in yet. So within a couple of hours
of giving birth and we've all settled in and we've
realized he's here, and everybody's calmed down, and we're all
laughing about it and we're sending photos to our family,
the midwife actually came and said my test results had
(27:41):
come back and I was actually positive, which was also
a shock. I was negative the first time and I
didn't actually know what that meant. So we did have
to stay in the hospital a little bit longer than
we intended, because when you are positive, you need to
have a round of antibiotics and your child also needs
to be monitored for longer. Luckily, everything was completely fine,
and you don't want to be honest, I wasn't complaining
(28:03):
for an extra night in the hospital at home with
the newborn baby that was sleeping a lot in those
first couple of days when my todd lot was back
at home not sleeping, So we stayed a little bit longer.
So that kind of also helped with just you know,
quietening down, coming to the realization he's here, the birth's done.
Everybody is fine.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
You said to me in your email when you wrote
to us that what you really wanted people to know
is that that fear and anxiety is something that you
weren't quite anticipating. So can you tell us a bit
about that.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Yeah, I think that everybody in the first birth is
very focused on planning. So you know, we do all
the classes. We do a birth in class, do the
breathing class, we do this and that, and there's a
lot of focus put on that, and you kind of
get to your birth and whatever birth you have is
a different experience. And maybe you didn't even use your
(28:56):
birth plan. Maybe you did use your birth plan. There's
just a lot of importance put on that and then
it kind of just fades away. But a lot of
people will have a second child, a lot of people
will have a third child. So when I started to
be quite scared of birth, I didn't really tell anyone
because I thought it was quite embarrassing, because I thought
people will think, why is she scared of birth? She's
(29:16):
already done it, you know, And a lot of people
would say that, oh, you've already done it before. So
you could be fine the second time around, but deep
down I was proper terrified, Like I was anxious about
I've had nightmares about it, about how it would go down,
where it would go down, how bad the pain would
be again, whether the every dura would work, whether you know,
(29:37):
I'd be paralyzed from the every dural because it was
so scary getting it and staying still. There's so many
elements that you now know about birth that you didn't before.
So in the first pregnancy, you're not stressing about those things.
All you're stressing about is put together a birth plan
and figure out your breathing and just go with the
flow and see how it goes, because you don't know
how it will go, but you know every element of
(30:00):
birth going into your second berth. So that was terrifying
for me. So I was very relieved once it was finished.
And again I think it was just ironic that it
was so quick after. I think it was kind of
a way perhaps even that Leo was like, right, I'll
make this super easy for your mum, because I know
you're really really scared.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I completely relate to you, and I think that I've
heard some incredible stories about women who have this real
calm peace, like very relaxed and positive mindsets. But for
us anxious people, it can be really, really scary, and
I think it's really important to talk about it and
(30:42):
to kind of think about the ways that we can
combat that. Whether it's in the lead up and obviously
you saw a therapist, obviously you had people to talk to,
but I do think it's really important to note that
just because you've done it once doesn't mean that you're
not allowed to be afraid again.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, And the thing that people tell you is every
birth is so different, right, So part of that fear
as well was that, well, Noah's birth was, you know,
pretty cruisy, and I felt really lucky and I thought
it went really well. It was positive. I ended up
getting what I wanted in the end in terms of
pain medication, and I thought, maybe I'm not going to
get that again, because maybe you only get one good birth.
(31:21):
So I thought I was out of tokens and I thought, well,
this one's not going to go great. And it was
definitely different. I thought, well, maybe there will be complications
this time around. I didn't have a complication the first
time around. I wasn't prepared for how much my mind
would run in terms of what could have gone wrong,
how you know, bad it was going to hurt this
(31:42):
time around, if things would work the same, if things
would go differently. That was quite terrifying. But I think
the main thing I tried to focus on was getting
over the embarrassment first of all, very quickly, and I
just started talking about it. I told my husband about it.
I told my sister about it, and you know, I
told other mums about it, and they said the same thing.
(32:02):
So I was like, why isn't anybody talking about this?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I relate to you very very much.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
You know, we keep everything inside all the time. We
just need to talk about how shitty aspects of this is.
So they did, and that was very helpful. So, you know,
once I started talk about it, once I started to
talking my therapist about it, I realized that it was
actually pretty normal and common. That was very helpful. You
never want to feel like you're the only one with
(32:30):
that fear and that anxiety, and you know, I'm being
ridiculous and nobody else would think this way as soon
as other people are in your boat, you know, you're
not wishing that upon people, but you're like, great, we're
a team.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Thank you so much, Nicholina, if you're telling us your story,
really appreciate it, and thank you so much for your
candor and you know, just being really honest about it.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Yeah, of course, thank you so much for giving me
the opportunity to tell the story.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I relate to Nicolina in a lot of ways, having
struggled with anxiety through both my pregnancies. I was curious
about the medical implications, so we've enlisted obstetrician and gynecologist
doctor Bromin Devine to give us some of the facts. So,
if you're in any sort of medication pre pregnancy, is
it safe to continue when you get those two lines.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
This is a great question because lots and lots of
people are on medication now for anxiety and depression. In
the past, some of the medication that was used was
not usually recommended in pregnancy, but the class of drugs
that we use now to treat anxiety and depression are
generally regarded as safe in pregnancy. There are some effects
(33:47):
that they can have. They don't cause birth defects or
anything like that, but they can be associated with it
slightly increased risk of leading when you've had a baby,
So postpartum hemorrhage, and they can also be associated with
a slightly increased risk of respiratory distress in the newborn,
which means that the baby has a fast breathing rate
(34:08):
and sometimes needs to be on a little bit of
oxygen in the nursery for a few hours after birth.
But that's not consistent across all people who are taking
those medications. The thing that we say, though, we know
really clearly that people's mental health should be as good
as it can be in the antiinatal period, because if
(34:28):
it isn't, then that's a real marker for postnatal depression.
And postnatal depression has so many and so does antiinatal
depression and anxiety. But postnatal depression and anxiety has so
many effects on the neurodevelopmental health of the child and
bonding between the child and the mum, and lots of
(34:49):
far reaching effects. So what we say these days is
if you need to be on medication to optimize your
mental health in the antiinatal period, then it's best to
be on that medication. And if that keeps you as
good as you can be, that's fantastic. And we really
take people's mental health anti natally and postnatally, very very seriously.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me kasenular Kitsch
with expert input from doctor Bronwin Devine and while we
have you, We're on the hunt to share powerful, underrepresented
stories from people of all cultures, backgrounds, and debilities. If
your birth story felt different, please reach out. Details are
in the show notes. This episode was produced by Tina
(35:39):
Matalov and myself Casseni Lukich, with audio production by Leah
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