June 10, 2025 • 28 mins
After years of heartache, disappointment, and countless tears, Kirsten McLennan discovered her endometrial lining was too thin to nurture a pregnancy—a devastating revelation after multiple failed IVF attempts. When specialists suggested surrogacy might be her path to parenthood, Kirsten and her husband Ryan embarked on an emotional international journey filled with both crushing setbacks and beautiful moments of hope.
In today's touching episode, Kirsten vulnerably shares her difficult path to becoming a mother—from the moment when transported embryos went missing in Canada to when they finally connected with their surrogate Leigha in Utah, they found not just a carrier for their precious baby, but a compassionate friend who opened her heart and home to help create their miracle.
Kirsten reflects on the beautiful complexity of surrogacy—the profound joy of those first skin-to-skin moments with Spencer, the deep bond formed while living with Leigha's family, and the overwhelming emotions they all shared in the delivery room.
Diary Of A Birth features mums sharing their heartfelt stories of bringing life into the world. Share your birth story at podcast@mamamia.com.au or send a voice note here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on. We pay our respects to elders, past, present
and emerging, and feel privileged to continue the sharing of
birth stories and knowledge that has been a fundamental part
of indigenous culture. This episode of Diary of a Birth
(00:43):
contains discussions of infertility and miscarriage. Please listen with caution. Hi.
I'm Cassanya Lukitch and this is Diary of a Birth.
I've been pretty candid about my struggles with infertility with
my first baby, but after two years and IVF, we
(01:04):
were fortunate enough to conceive. But there are many couples
out there struggling for much longer, and it takes an
extreme emotional and physical toll. Your life starts to work
in cycles. Everything centers around it, and there's nothing more
frustrating than having to cancel a transfer because something hasn't
(01:25):
lined up.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
The cycles were canceled, which is also a difficult experience
because you know, I would go to all the appointments
and the scans and have all the injections and then
get to the transfer time and they'd say sorry, it's
not thick enough, we have to cancel.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
After so much disappointment, Today's mum turned to sarrogacy and
after years of heartache, was finally able to hold her
baby in her arms. So let's meet today's mm.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Hi. I'm Kirsten. This is a diary of my surrogacy
birth with Spencer.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Becustin. First of all, your story has so much before Spencer,
and you wrote a book about it called This Is Infertility.
I guess what I really want to start with first
is a little bit about your struggles with infertility before
you turned to surrogacy.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah. So, as you mentioned, our Sun was born through
gestational surrogacy, So he was born in twenty nineteen in
Utah in the US. But this was after a six
year infertility journey. So when my husband Ryan and I
first tried to get pregnant, we thought it actually would
be quite easy. We were in our early thirties, we
(02:41):
had no fertility issues that I was aware of then,
and so we just expected it to happen quite quickly.
And it was after about nine months of trying to
get pregnant that I became really frustrated and confused that
I wasn't pregnant yet, so we went and saw a
fertility specialist just to get some of the routine tests done.
(03:02):
So Ryan had his sperm checked, I had my egg
count and quality checked and everything came back normal. However,
through an ultrasound, the specialist picked up that I had
some polycystic ovaries, so to make sure that I was
ovulating regularly, she prescribed clomid. Three months of clomid later,
(03:23):
still no pregnancy. So we then tried UI, which is
where they pop a cafeta up into the uterus with
sperm tracking your cycle, and so I did three rounds
of aUI still no pregnancy, so we then decided to
move on to IVF. My first IVF transfer failed, which
(03:45):
is quite common for the first transfer. With a second transfer,
I had what's known as a pregnancy of unknown location, which,
as the name suggests, the mbury had implanted somewhere in
my body, but not in the uterus, so it wasn't
a Bible pregnancy and not in the filopian tubes, so
it wasn't a topic pregnancy, but it would have been
(04:08):
dangerous for the pregnancy to continue. So I had metatrix E,
which is a chemotherapy agent to end the pregnancy, which
was a really difficult experience, and at first we did
think that we were pregnant. It was the first positive
pregnancy result we'd had, so obviously was a difficult time.
(04:28):
Given I had the metatrics eight, I needed to take
three months off fertility treatment as it needed time to
work its way out of my body. Then for the
next couple of ivy of transfers, my cycles kept getting canceled.
And the reason was I had this thin endometrium lining,
and I had absolutely no idea what the endometrium lining
(04:49):
was and why it was important. I started to research
it and found that the lining is actually crucial to
falling pregnant and staying pregnant. For a transfer. In Australia,
the requirement is six milimeters are more to go ahead
with a transfer. In the US it's about eight milimeters,
and healthy lining is considered between ten to twelve millimeters,
(05:10):
and mine was always in the fours. So whenever it
was in the fours, the cycles were canceled, which is
also a difficult experience because you know, I would go
to all the appointments and have all the injections and
then get to the transfer time and they'd say, sorry,
it's not thick enough, we have to cancel bought missions.
So that was really difficult to go through. When it
(05:30):
was in the fives, the lining, they were like, well,
close enough is good enough, and they would go ahead
with the transfer and it would fail. So I started
to research myself and found out that actually close enough
is not good enough. The endometrium lining is crucial, and
a thick lining, you know, results in a successful transfer pregnancy,
but for a thin lining, the transfer success rate is
(05:53):
actually very low and the miscarriage rate is very high.
So when I raised it with my specialists, unfortunately, she
didn't really have any insights, just kept saying, well, you know,
people do fall pregnant with thin lining, let's keep trying.
So not satisfied with that answer, we actually changed to
(06:14):
another IVF specialist, thank goodness we did, and it was
actually at that very first appointment that he said to us,
you know, fin lining is are rare, they're often difficult
to treat, and your best chance of having a baby
is through surrogacy. And that was so warming.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I can imagine. I've been through the IBF process myself,
so I really empathize with that feeling. Of frustration, the miscycles,
the having to wait, the cancelations, and it's just constant disappointment,
and it really is one of the most challenging times,
(06:52):
not only physically on your body, but mentally and as
a couple. And I really truly empathize with that process.
You've decided on surrogacy, and we've had a surrogate on
our show before, but they were based in Australia. You
chose a surrogate in the US. Can you tell us
(07:13):
about choosing a gestational surrogut in the US.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yes, So in Australia, the surrogacy process of it not
as common and actually ninety two percent of people do
international surrogacy rather than domestic. So with the US it
is quite a smooth, easy process. They have sarrogacy agencies
which we don't have in Australia. So we were matched
(07:38):
quite quickly with the surrogate, actually only took a couple
of weeks, whereas in Australia, because there's no agencies, it's
illegal to advertise and actually surrogacy in some states international
surrogxy commercial surrogacy is illegal, and so we just found
the process in America just you know, so smooth and easier,
(08:00):
and we'd already been through so much prior to that,
so we suppose you didn't want to waste any more
time as well, Like by the time we got to
Saragxy it had been four years of fertility treatment and trying,
and so therefore, you know, America was a really smart
option for us.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Did you fly over there or was this all done remotely?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Well, we actually started saragcy the first time in Canada.
So Canada is altruistic surrogacy, not commercial surrogacy. With Canada,
because it is altruistic like Australia, it can be a
longer process. There are more intended parents than there are surrogates.
We were fortunate we actually matched within a few weeks
with the surrogate, but it can take one to two
(08:43):
years in Canada. And we transported across our embryos from
Melbourne to Toronto for the surrogacy, and we did flow
over for the first transfer, but we actually had a
very negative upsetting experience in Toronto, so flew over. We'd
match with this beautiful lady Julie, and we're there on
(09:04):
the transfer day. We're all sitting in the waiting room
and the transfer time came and went. We were so
confused what was happening and we kept going up to
the reception. They said, all so, ione will be with
you shortly. Eventually a NICT came out and said, you know,
the specialist would like to see you and Ryan and
Julie in his office have a private chat. Always no,
(09:24):
that's never a good sign. Went into his office and
you know, he came in. He had this grave look
on his face, sat behind his desk and he said,
I am so sorry, but the container of embryos that
you transported across from Australia is empty. So he said,
you know, we went to open the container about half
an hour ago to start the thaw process and there
(09:45):
were no embryos inside, and we were completely shocked and devastated.
We still don't know actually what happened, but transporting embryos
is a very standard common practice. People transport eggs embryo
spam every week where they're changing clinics or doing surrogacy.
And we found out that what happened to us was
(10:05):
extremely rare, less than one percent chances of happening. And
we spoke to lawyers in Canada and in Melbourne. No
one had even heard of this happening before, so it
was really devastating and at the time, I thought, this
is the universe's of saying we're not meant to be parents,
Like this was not a scenario I ever dreamed that
would be possible. So that was our initial sarrogacy experience,
(10:30):
and believe it or not, we did actually continue to
pursue sarrogacy in Canada. So we transported across more embryos
through a different company and we did three transfers in
Canada or with genetically tested embryos, and all three transfers failed.
We have absolutely no idea why. There were no obvious
complications with our sarrogate or anything. But after that experience,
(10:53):
that was when we decided to change to America.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
How many embryos did you have at this point, did
you have to go through multiple retrievals.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yes, so we had. We transported across two embryos. They
were our final two at that point. So that was
the other really upsetting part is in the back of
my mind, I was like, what if we don't get
any more embryos, But we did manage to get some more.
So when we went back to got back to Australia
another a collection that managed to create some more embryos.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Thank goodness, you've now transported your embryos across You've then
another egg collection moved to the States, and you described
that process as being quite easy. What made it so easy.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
We went through the Utah Fertility Center, who were amazing,
So the very first meeting that we had with them,
they were so invested in helping us have a baby.
They really empathized with everything we'd been to and they
didn't rush us at all. It felt like quite a
different patient experience to Australia, to be honest. So that
(11:58):
was the first part of it. We had really good
patient care. We then went through a boutique surrogacy agency
called Rocky Mountain who matched us with our surrogate. And
the first skype that we had with our surrogate, Lea
and her husband Josh, we just had an instant rapport
and connection with them and it felt like we'd known
(12:19):
each other forever and we just had a really good
instinct and we just knew that Lea was the person
who wanted to carry our baby. So having Leah, having
the clinic, the agency, just everything felt very smooth and easy,
and everyone just seems so invested in helping us finally
(12:40):
have a baby.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I know that you didn't have a successful first transfer
with Leah. You did actually have a miscarriage. Can you
tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yes, so, our first transfer failed and it was on
our second transfer that we did for pregnant and we
had a scan at seven and a half weeks and
everything was great. The baby's heartbeat was strong, baby was
measuring well, Lea's hormone levels were good. So we thought, oh,
finally this is it, we finally have our baby. Everything
(13:13):
was looking great, was the furthest whatever got to at
this point. The next scan was at nine weeks, and
given the time difference, it was three am in Utah,
so we decided that Josh would video the scan and
take some photos and when we'd wake up, we would
give them a call. I woke up at six am
(13:33):
and I checked my phone and there were no messages.
And Leah is an excellent communicator, so I expected just
to wake up to multiple messages and videos. So I
just knew that something was wrong. And Ram was fast asleep,
but his phone was on the bedside table and I
saw a WhatsApp message from Lea's husband Josh, and all
(13:54):
it said is I'm so sorry we've lost the baby.
So obviously that was devastating. It was also really challenging
with international cerrogcy because in that moment, all we wanted
to do was be together, grieve together, hug each other,
and we couldn't. And we learned that what had happened
was a sub chronic heemotoma had caused the miscarriage, so
(14:17):
it had cut off supply from the BLASCENTA to the baby.
Chronic chemotome is quite common in pregnancy, not that common
to cause miscarriage though, and they're one of those things
they can't be prevented, they can't be treated. So once
again I was thinking, oh, this is the universe's ways
saying we're not meant to be parents. You know, something
rare has happened again. So it again was a really
(14:39):
difficult time for us to go through.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
You have been through a lot, and I remember with
my own journey, it was like, what's wrong with me?
This is the universe telling me that I'm not supposed
to be a mother And it is truly gut wrenching
to feel that way. What gave you the strength to
keep going.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So I started to see a counselor who is also
a hypnotherapist, so she definitely helped us during that really
difficult time. But really it was my husband and also
a surrogate, Lea, who convinced me because they both sort
of took a positive from it that we did for pregnant,
(15:23):
that what had caused the miscarriage was something so rare
that could happen to anyone, wasn't to do with us specifically,
and there was one transfer left in the contract, so
one final try, so Leah was determined to help us
have a family. Ryan really wanted us to try again
one final time. So I went in to the final
(15:44):
transfer feeling a bit negative to be honest, and thinking
this is not going to work, but fine, I'll just
do it. We've got nothing to lose. They both went
in sort of cautiously optimistic, and yeah, fortunately they were right,
and we did our final transfer and nine months later
Spencer was born.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Coming up.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
She absolutely did risk her life to help another family
have a child. So I mean, I just think that
surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing. If
it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, We
wouldn't have a family, So no, we owe her everything.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Okay, so you're going to be apprehensive in those first
couple of weeks. You get to that kind of twelve
week mark, which is our mark where you go, okay,
we're kind of in the safe iwhere through the first trimester.
What did it feel like for you and your partner
and Leah in the States, like you're almost like a
quad here. What was that moment of getting through that
(16:48):
first trimester?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Look, it was amazing, But I'll be honest, I felt
apprehensive until Spencer was born. So even though I definitely
felt better at twelve weeks, and I felt better again
at twenty weeks, and I felt better again at thirty weeks,
with every scan further and further as we progressed, the
anxiety started to lower. Until Spencer was actually born and
(17:12):
held him in my arms, I didn't feel one hundred
percent joy, to be honest, which I think a lot
of people experiencing infertility can relate to, especially if you've
had pregnancy losses in the past. So I think if
pregnancy has come easy and you've never had a pregnancy loss,
then probably from that very first pregnancy test. You're feeling
(17:32):
excited and happy for the whole way through. But that
was not my experience unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
When did you end up flying over to the US.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Two weeks before Spencer was born?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay? And was it a planned cesarean? Was it a
vaginal birth?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Vaginal birth?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Okay? So she went into spontaneous labor I imagine, Yes,
so at thirty nine weeks so you were basically there
in Utah waiting for her to go into labor. I
mean it must have been nice to spend some time
together phase to phase.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
It was. And we actually lived with Lea and her husband, Josh,
and they're two boys for five weeks, so two weeks
before Spencer was born and the three weeks after he
was born, so we're all together in the same house,
and it was summertime over there. Spencer was born the
day after fourth of July. Fourth of July is a
big holiday there, so it was actually really lovely and
fun time together.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I'm imagining that you were with her in the birth
suite when Spencer was born. How was her labor and
what was that experience like for you?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yes, so we did have adjoining rooms at the hospital.
And her labor was pretty good. Apparently wasn't too long.
Leah had been a sorry before as well, I should
mention for a couple from Spain. So this was her
fourth delivery, so her two boys and then a previous
sorry get baby. And when Spencer was born, yeah, obviously
(18:56):
we're all crying a lot. My mum was in the
room as well. She flew over with us, and I
just remember our obstetric get Spencer out and he was like,
do you want to hold him? Yes, we'd just walk
over and crying. And so I had the first skin
on skin contact, which was absolutely beautiful. Ryan cut the cord.
(19:18):
Leah had some skin on skin contact, and yes, it
was just a very emotional, beautiful moment. We were hugging,
we were all saying I love you to each other.
It was a really beautiful time.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
You obviously spent some time with Leon and their family,
and you've got this beautiful new little baby. When did
that finally all kick in and you realized that you
were a mother after all this time?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes, the first the first few minutes of holding him,
it suddenly felt real. So, yeah, such a beautiful emotional time.
And again all living together was actually really special as well.
And you know, by this point, Leah and Josh rold
hands of being parents, so they were able to show
us a few things, a few tips and tricks, which
was very helpful. This is how you put a napion,
(20:06):
this is how you do a bath, all those things
that you read in the books and listen to on
the podcast before you're a parent, but when it actually
comes to the time, you have no idea what you're doing,
at least I didn't know. So that was a really
lovely experience as well, doing all that together. And at
three weeks we then flew back to Australia, so that
(20:27):
also was very emotional saying goodbye to Leah and Josh.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, I can mention, and you know, you had almost
become this blended family at this point after spending three
weeks together. And Leah is obviously still recovering from birth.
I'm not going to ask you to speak for her,
but I can imagine that sort of giving over a
baby while you're having those post hormonal things can be
(20:52):
quite challenging, especially if you're living with them, as she'd
done this before. Was that something that she was kind
of quite comfortable with? Were you comfortable with it.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, I think it was something she was comfortable with.
She had mentioned that with the couple from Spain that
she'd had the Suragad baby for that when it came
time to say goodbye, she actually felt more emotional saying
goodbye to the parents rather than the baby, because you know,
that's who she knew, that's who she spent a lot
of time time with, and so I think that was
(21:22):
true with us as well. And the night before we
did fly out, though, Leah had Spencer for the night,
so he slept in her bed for the night, and
it was one way to let us have a really
good night's sleep before jumping on a twenty hour international
flight with the newborns. That was very thoughtful. But of
(21:43):
course another part of it was her spending that quality
time with Spencer, and I think it was also her
way of saying goodbye, which was important. But I will
add that we have obviously kept in contact. We have
such a close relationship, and we moved to the US
my husband's work a couple of years ago, and we
moved back last year, and when we were living in
(22:05):
the US, we did actually catch up with Lea and
Josh a few times, so we spent some time at
their house. Then Leah came and spent a few weeks
with us. We were in North Carolina at the time,
and so we actually saw each other three times in
that time face to face, and then she kind of
got to meet Spencer again because you know, she'd say
goodbye to a three week newborn and then when we
(22:27):
came back to the US, he was three and a half.
So that was a really special experience for her. And
it's interesting because, I mean we'd obviously kept in contact
and done video scouts and everything, but you know, within
five minutes light Lia and Spencer, they just were like
the best of friends and so comfortable with each other,
(22:49):
and it was like that known each other for years
as well, So it was actually really special.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I just wanted to quickly sort of move back into
Leah's pregnancy. You mentioned your article about her having pre
clampsia throughout the.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Pregnancy, Yes, post proclampsia.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Postpartum pre clamsier. Yes, So while you're living with her
and she's going through this, like, how do you respond
to that?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
So she was fine during the pregnancy. At the birth,
she did hemorrhage and to lose about a leader of blood.
They were prepared for that because that had happened previously.
So the obsetrician was amazing and they were able to
treat her straight away. Was confronting at the time because
(23:35):
all of a sudden a team or emergency team were
in the room. We were kind of shuffled out of
the room. However, again they were prepared for it, so
she was fine. And then her previous pregnancy as well,
she'd had this post part and proclamsy up where her
blood pressure would drop during the pregnancy. Her previous printance
(23:58):
she had fainted blacked out during it, but again because
that had happen previously, they were quite prepared. So she
was on medication to help manage that, and she was
having daily checks as well at the hospital after the birth,
and so she was kind of on top of it. Also.
(24:19):
She managed it amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Actually, you have this really beautiful line of that she
risked her life to give us Spencer.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yes, because hemorrhaging and postpun and proclampcy are those dangerous conditions.
So she absolutely did risk her life to help another
family have a child. So I mean, I just think
that surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing.
If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son,
(24:47):
we wouldn't have a family, So you know, we owe
her everything.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I mean, Spencer's five is almost six. What do you
tell him about where he came from?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yes, so he doesn't actually know yet that he was
born through saragacy, but that is a conversation that we're
having with him, most likely in the next year. So
the advice we have been given is to tell him
before the age of seven, and he started prep this year,
so he's transitioning into school and into prep and once
(25:17):
he's all settled, then we will have a conversation either
later this year or next year. And one of the
best ways to do it is through a book, so
there's lots of children's books to explain surrogacy to him.
Keep it really simple as well as the advice. And
he obviously knows Leah and knows who she is, so
it'll be conversation of AUNTI, leiahctor mummy have you.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I'm sure he's very very well loved by you, especially
after the ordeal that you've been through. I really admire
your courage and strength through that because I can only
imagine how difficult that whole process was for you, but
I'm so grateful and happy that you had your happy ending.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I also wanted to talk to our resident OB and
IVF specialist, doctor Bromin Devine on the importance of the
thickness of the endometrial lining.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
You know, it's the last frontier really of getting everything
right in terms of conception and the embryo traveling down
the tube and getting itself into the uterus and actually
implanting in the uterress. Implanting in the utress is terribly
important for the health of the pregnancy and the health
of the pregnancy all the way through the pregnancy because
(26:36):
implantation problems can be associated with lots and lots of problems.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
In pregnancy, including having a very growth restricted baby or
developing preclamsier things like that all have to do with
issues around implantation. So the lining of the utress at
the time of implantation has to be perfect. It has
to be timed exactly right to accept the embryo at
exactly the right time, and it has to be healthy
(27:02):
and at a certain thickness that will allow implantation to
take place. And this is one of the most challenging
things in IVF because it can be really tricky, even
with all the hormonal support that we give for some
women to get a uterine lining that actually gets to
a thickness that will allow a healthy implantation. And when
(27:23):
we do IVF, if someone's uterine lining is not at
a level where we can feel confident about putting a
precious embryo back, we will cancel the cycle and not
put the embryo back because we know the chances of
that embryo taking and implanting is so much less. You know,
there are some women who just for one reason or another,
(27:46):
have a U turne lening that just doesn't respond. And
we've made so much progress in the world of IVF.
We're so good at creating embryos. Now, we're so good
at storing embryos. We can test embryos to see if
they have chromosome abnormalities, we can test embryos to see
if they have genetic mutations. We can do so much
stuff with IVF these days. Our culture mediums are so
(28:09):
much better. Our techniques for collecting eggs and collecting sperm
and storing things and medications that we use. Everything we
do is just got better and better with time. In
proving a uterine lining has been really challenging for us
in the IVF world, and that's why some women have
(28:30):
to go down the path of looking at surrogacy, which
is phenomenally expensive and phenomenally challenging, but for some people,
surrogacy offers them the only hope of being able to
carry out pregnancy or being able to have a child.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Cassanie Lukitch
with expert input from Dr Bronwin Devine. If you like
our show, don't forget to subscribe and rate. It goes
a long way to allowing us to continue sharing your stories.
This episode was produced by Ella Maitland and myself Cassanie Lukitch,
with audio production by Tina Mattlov
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on. We pay our respects to elders, past, present
and emerging, and feel privileged to continue the sharing of
birth stories and knowledge that has been a fundamental part
of indigenous culture. This episode of Diary of a Birth
(00:43):
contains discussions of infertility and miscarriage. Please listen with caution. Hi.
I'm Cassanya Lukitch and this is Diary of a Birth.
I've been pretty candid about my struggles with infertility with
my first baby, but after two years and IVF, we
(01:04):
were fortunate enough to conceive. But there are many couples
out there struggling for much longer, and it takes an
extreme emotional and physical toll. Your life starts to work
in cycles. Everything centers around it, and there's nothing more
frustrating than having to cancel a transfer because something hasn't
(01:25):
lined up.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
The cycles were canceled, which is also a difficult experience
because you know, I would go to all the appointments
and the scans and have all the injections and then
get to the transfer time and they'd say sorry, it's
not thick enough, we have to cancel.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
After so much disappointment, Today's mum turned to sarrogacy and
after years of heartache, was finally able to hold her
baby in her arms. So let's meet today's mm.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Hi. I'm Kirsten. This is a diary of my surrogacy
birth with Spencer.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Becustin. First of all, your story has so much before Spencer,
and you wrote a book about it called This Is Infertility.
I guess what I really want to start with first
is a little bit about your struggles with infertility before
you turned to surrogacy.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah. So, as you mentioned, our Sun was born through
gestational surrogacy, So he was born in twenty nineteen in
Utah in the US. But this was after a six
year infertility journey. So when my husband Ryan and I
first tried to get pregnant, we thought it actually would
be quite easy. We were in our early thirties, we
(02:41):
had no fertility issues that I was aware of then,
and so we just expected it to happen quite quickly.
And it was after about nine months of trying to
get pregnant that I became really frustrated and confused that
I wasn't pregnant yet, so we went and saw a
fertility specialist just to get some of the routine tests done.
(03:02):
So Ryan had his sperm checked, I had my egg
count and quality checked and everything came back normal. However,
through an ultrasound, the specialist picked up that I had
some polycystic ovaries, so to make sure that I was
ovulating regularly, she prescribed clomid. Three months of clomid later,
(03:23):
still no pregnancy. So we then tried UI, which is
where they pop a cafeta up into the uterus with
sperm tracking your cycle, and so I did three rounds
of aUI still no pregnancy, so we then decided to
move on to IVF. My first IVF transfer failed, which
(03:45):
is quite common for the first transfer. With a second transfer,
I had what's known as a pregnancy of unknown location, which,
as the name suggests, the mbury had implanted somewhere in
my body, but not in the uterus, so it wasn't
a Bible pregnancy and not in the filopian tubes, so
it wasn't a topic pregnancy, but it would have been
(04:08):
dangerous for the pregnancy to continue. So I had metatrix E,
which is a chemotherapy agent to end the pregnancy, which
was a really difficult experience, and at first we did
think that we were pregnant. It was the first positive
pregnancy result we'd had, so obviously was a difficult time.
(04:28):
Given I had the metatrics eight, I needed to take
three months off fertility treatment as it needed time to
work its way out of my body. Then for the
next couple of ivy of transfers, my cycles kept getting canceled.
And the reason was I had this thin endometrium lining,
and I had absolutely no idea what the endometrium lining
(04:49):
was and why it was important. I started to research
it and found that the lining is actually crucial to
falling pregnant and staying pregnant. For a transfer. In Australia,
the requirement is six milimeters are more to go ahead
with a transfer. In the US it's about eight milimeters,
and healthy lining is considered between ten to twelve millimeters,
(05:10):
and mine was always in the fours. So whenever it
was in the fours, the cycles were canceled, which is
also a difficult experience because you know, I would go
to all the appointments and have all the injections and
then get to the transfer time and they'd say, sorry,
it's not thick enough, we have to cancel bought missions.
So that was really difficult to go through. When it
(05:30):
was in the fives, the lining, they were like, well,
close enough is good enough, and they would go ahead
with the transfer and it would fail. So I started
to research myself and found out that actually close enough
is not good enough. The endometrium lining is crucial, and
a thick lining, you know, results in a successful transfer pregnancy,
but for a thin lining, the transfer success rate is
(05:53):
actually very low and the miscarriage rate is very high.
So when I raised it with my specialists, unfortunately, she
didn't really have any insights, just kept saying, well, you know,
people do fall pregnant with thin lining, let's keep trying.
So not satisfied with that answer, we actually changed to
(06:14):
another IVF specialist, thank goodness we did, and it was
actually at that very first appointment that he said to us,
you know, fin lining is are rare, they're often difficult
to treat, and your best chance of having a baby
is through surrogacy. And that was so warming.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I can imagine. I've been through the IBF process myself,
so I really empathize with that feeling. Of frustration, the miscycles,
the having to wait, the cancelations, and it's just constant disappointment,
and it really is one of the most challenging times,
(06:52):
not only physically on your body, but mentally and as
a couple. And I really truly empathize with that process.
You've decided on surrogacy, and we've had a surrogate on
our show before, but they were based in Australia. You
chose a surrogate in the US. Can you tell us
(07:13):
about choosing a gestational surrogut in the US.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yes, So in Australia, the surrogacy process of it not
as common and actually ninety two percent of people do
international surrogacy rather than domestic. So with the US it
is quite a smooth, easy process. They have sarrogacy agencies
which we don't have in Australia. So we were matched
(07:38):
quite quickly with the surrogate, actually only took a couple
of weeks, whereas in Australia, because there's no agencies, it's
illegal to advertise and actually surrogacy in some states international
surrogxy commercial surrogacy is illegal, and so we just found
the process in America just you know, so smooth and easier,
(08:00):
and we'd already been through so much prior to that,
so we suppose you didn't want to waste any more
time as well, Like by the time we got to
Saragxy it had been four years of fertility treatment and trying,
and so therefore, you know, America was a really smart
option for us.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Did you fly over there or was this all done remotely?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Well, we actually started saragcy the first time in Canada.
So Canada is altruistic surrogacy, not commercial surrogacy. With Canada,
because it is altruistic like Australia, it can be a
longer process. There are more intended parents than there are surrogates.
We were fortunate we actually matched within a few weeks
with the surrogate, but it can take one to two
(08:43):
years in Canada. And we transported across our embryos from
Melbourne to Toronto for the surrogacy, and we did flow
over for the first transfer, but we actually had a
very negative upsetting experience in Toronto, so flew over. We'd
match with this beautiful lady Julie, and we're there on
(09:04):
the transfer day. We're all sitting in the waiting room
and the transfer time came and went. We were so
confused what was happening and we kept going up to
the reception. They said, all so, ione will be with
you shortly. Eventually a NICT came out and said, you know,
the specialist would like to see you and Ryan and
Julie in his office have a private chat. Always no,
(09:24):
that's never a good sign. Went into his office and
you know, he came in. He had this grave look
on his face, sat behind his desk and he said,
I am so sorry, but the container of embryos that
you transported across from Australia is empty. So he said,
you know, we went to open the container about half
an hour ago to start the thaw process and there
(09:45):
were no embryos inside, and we were completely shocked and devastated.
We still don't know actually what happened, but transporting embryos
is a very standard common practice. People transport eggs embryo
spam every week where they're changing clinics or doing surrogacy.
And we found out that what happened to us was
(10:05):
extremely rare, less than one percent chances of happening. And
we spoke to lawyers in Canada and in Melbourne. No
one had even heard of this happening before, so it
was really devastating and at the time, I thought, this
is the universe's of saying we're not meant to be parents,
Like this was not a scenario I ever dreamed that
would be possible. So that was our initial sarrogacy experience,
(10:30):
and believe it or not, we did actually continue to
pursue sarrogacy in Canada. So we transported across more embryos
through a different company and we did three transfers in
Canada or with genetically tested embryos, and all three transfers failed.
We have absolutely no idea why. There were no obvious
complications with our sarrogate or anything. But after that experience,
(10:53):
that was when we decided to change to America.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
How many embryos did you have at this point, did
you have to go through multiple retrievals.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yes, so we had. We transported across two embryos. They
were our final two at that point. So that was
the other really upsetting part is in the back of
my mind, I was like, what if we don't get
any more embryos, But we did manage to get some more.
So when we went back to got back to Australia
another a collection that managed to create some more embryos.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Thank goodness, you've now transported your embryos across You've then
another egg collection moved to the States, and you described
that process as being quite easy. What made it so easy.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
We went through the Utah Fertility Center, who were amazing,
So the very first meeting that we had with them,
they were so invested in helping us have a baby.
They really empathized with everything we'd been to and they
didn't rush us at all. It felt like quite a
different patient experience to Australia, to be honest. So that
(11:58):
was the first part of it. We had really good
patient care. We then went through a boutique surrogacy agency
called Rocky Mountain who matched us with our surrogate. And
the first skype that we had with our surrogate, Lea
and her husband Josh, we just had an instant rapport
and connection with them and it felt like we'd known
(12:19):
each other forever and we just had a really good
instinct and we just knew that Lea was the person
who wanted to carry our baby. So having Leah, having
the clinic, the agency, just everything felt very smooth and easy,
and everyone just seems so invested in helping us finally
(12:40):
have a baby.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I know that you didn't have a successful first transfer
with Leah. You did actually have a miscarriage. Can you
tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yes, so, our first transfer failed and it was on
our second transfer that we did for pregnant and we
had a scan at seven and a half weeks and
everything was great. The baby's heartbeat was strong, baby was
measuring well, Lea's hormone levels were good. So we thought, oh,
finally this is it, we finally have our baby. Everything
(13:13):
was looking great, was the furthest whatever got to at
this point. The next scan was at nine weeks, and
given the time difference, it was three am in Utah,
so we decided that Josh would video the scan and
take some photos and when we'd wake up, we would
give them a call. I woke up at six am
(13:33):
and I checked my phone and there were no messages.
And Leah is an excellent communicator, so I expected just
to wake up to multiple messages and videos. So I
just knew that something was wrong. And Ram was fast asleep,
but his phone was on the bedside table and I
saw a WhatsApp message from Lea's husband Josh, and all
(13:54):
it said is I'm so sorry we've lost the baby.
So obviously that was devastating. It was also really challenging
with international cerrogcy because in that moment, all we wanted
to do was be together, grieve together, hug each other,
and we couldn't. And we learned that what had happened
was a sub chronic heemotoma had caused the miscarriage, so
(14:17):
it had cut off supply from the BLASCENTA to the baby.
Chronic chemotome is quite common in pregnancy, not that common
to cause miscarriage though, and they're one of those things
they can't be prevented, they can't be treated. So once
again I was thinking, oh, this is the universe's ways
saying we're not meant to be parents. You know, something
rare has happened again. So it again was a really
(14:39):
difficult time for us to go through.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
You have been through a lot, and I remember with
my own journey, it was like, what's wrong with me?
This is the universe telling me that I'm not supposed
to be a mother And it is truly gut wrenching
to feel that way. What gave you the strength to
keep going.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
So I started to see a counselor who is also
a hypnotherapist, so she definitely helped us during that really
difficult time. But really it was my husband and also
a surrogate, Lea, who convinced me because they both sort
of took a positive from it that we did for pregnant,
(15:23):
that what had caused the miscarriage was something so rare
that could happen to anyone, wasn't to do with us specifically,
and there was one transfer left in the contract, so
one final try, so Leah was determined to help us
have a family. Ryan really wanted us to try again
one final time. So I went in to the final
(15:44):
transfer feeling a bit negative to be honest, and thinking
this is not going to work, but fine, I'll just
do it. We've got nothing to lose. They both went
in sort of cautiously optimistic, and yeah, fortunately they were right,
and we did our final transfer and nine months later
Spencer was born.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Coming up.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
She absolutely did risk her life to help another family
have a child. So I mean, I just think that
surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing. If
it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, We
wouldn't have a family, So no, we owe her everything.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Okay, so you're going to be apprehensive in those first
couple of weeks. You get to that kind of twelve
week mark, which is our mark where you go, okay,
we're kind of in the safe iwhere through the first trimester.
What did it feel like for you and your partner
and Leah in the States, like you're almost like a
quad here. What was that moment of getting through that
(16:48):
first trimester?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Look, it was amazing, But I'll be honest, I felt
apprehensive until Spencer was born. So even though I definitely
felt better at twelve weeks, and I felt better again
at twenty weeks, and I felt better again at thirty weeks,
with every scan further and further as we progressed, the
anxiety started to lower. Until Spencer was actually born and
(17:12):
held him in my arms, I didn't feel one hundred
percent joy, to be honest, which I think a lot
of people experiencing infertility can relate to, especially if you've
had pregnancy losses in the past. So I think if
pregnancy has come easy and you've never had a pregnancy loss,
then probably from that very first pregnancy test. You're feeling
(17:32):
excited and happy for the whole way through. But that
was not my experience unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
When did you end up flying over to the US.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Two weeks before Spencer was born?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay? And was it a planned cesarean? Was it a
vaginal birth?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Vaginal birth?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Okay? So she went into spontaneous labor I imagine, Yes,
so at thirty nine weeks so you were basically there
in Utah waiting for her to go into labor. I
mean it must have been nice to spend some time
together phase to phase.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
It was. And we actually lived with Lea and her husband, Josh,
and they're two boys for five weeks, so two weeks
before Spencer was born and the three weeks after he
was born, so we're all together in the same house,
and it was summertime over there. Spencer was born the
day after fourth of July. Fourth of July is a
big holiday there, so it was actually really lovely and
fun time together.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I'm imagining that you were with her in the birth
suite when Spencer was born. How was her labor and
what was that experience like for you?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yes, so we did have adjoining rooms at the hospital.
And her labor was pretty good. Apparently wasn't too long.
Leah had been a sorry before as well, I should
mention for a couple from Spain. So this was her
fourth delivery, so her two boys and then a previous
sorry get baby. And when Spencer was born, yeah, obviously
(18:56):
we're all crying a lot. My mum was in the
room as well. She flew over with us, and I
just remember our obstetric get Spencer out and he was like,
do you want to hold him? Yes, we'd just walk
over and crying. And so I had the first skin
on skin contact, which was absolutely beautiful. Ryan cut the cord.
(19:18):
Leah had some skin on skin contact, and yes, it
was just a very emotional, beautiful moment. We were hugging,
we were all saying I love you to each other.
It was a really beautiful time.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
You obviously spent some time with Leon and their family,
and you've got this beautiful new little baby. When did
that finally all kick in and you realized that you
were a mother after all this time?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes, the first the first few minutes of holding him,
it suddenly felt real. So, yeah, such a beautiful emotional time.
And again all living together was actually really special as well.
And you know, by this point, Leah and Josh rold
hands of being parents, so they were able to show
us a few things, a few tips and tricks, which
was very helpful. This is how you put a napion,
(20:06):
this is how you do a bath, all those things
that you read in the books and listen to on
the podcast before you're a parent, but when it actually
comes to the time, you have no idea what you're doing,
at least I didn't know. So that was a really
lovely experience as well, doing all that together. And at
three weeks we then flew back to Australia, so that
(20:27):
also was very emotional saying goodbye to Leah and Josh.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, I can mention, and you know, you had almost
become this blended family at this point after spending three
weeks together. And Leah is obviously still recovering from birth.
I'm not going to ask you to speak for her,
but I can imagine that sort of giving over a
baby while you're having those post hormonal things can be
(20:52):
quite challenging, especially if you're living with them, as she'd
done this before. Was that something that she was kind
of quite comfortable with? Were you comfortable with it.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, I think it was something she was comfortable with.
She had mentioned that with the couple from Spain that
she'd had the Suragad baby for that when it came
time to say goodbye, she actually felt more emotional saying
goodbye to the parents rather than the baby, because you know,
that's who she knew, that's who she spent a lot
of time time with, and so I think that was
(21:22):
true with us as well. And the night before we
did fly out, though, Leah had Spencer for the night,
so he slept in her bed for the night, and
it was one way to let us have a really
good night's sleep before jumping on a twenty hour international
flight with the newborns. That was very thoughtful. But of
(21:43):
course another part of it was her spending that quality
time with Spencer, and I think it was also her
way of saying goodbye, which was important. But I will
add that we have obviously kept in contact. We have
such a close relationship, and we moved to the US
my husband's work a couple of years ago, and we
moved back last year, and when we were living in
(22:05):
the US, we did actually catch up with Lea and
Josh a few times, so we spent some time at
their house. Then Leah came and spent a few weeks
with us. We were in North Carolina at the time,
and so we actually saw each other three times in
that time face to face, and then she kind of
got to meet Spencer again because you know, she'd say
goodbye to a three week newborn and then when we
(22:27):
came back to the US, he was three and a half.
So that was a really special experience for her. And
it's interesting because, I mean we'd obviously kept in contact
and done video scouts and everything, but you know, within
five minutes light Lia and Spencer, they just were like
the best of friends and so comfortable with each other,
(22:49):
and it was like that known each other for years
as well, So it was actually really special.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I just wanted to quickly sort of move back into
Leah's pregnancy. You mentioned your article about her having pre
clampsia throughout the.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Pregnancy, Yes, post proclampsia.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Postpartum pre clamsier. Yes, So while you're living with her
and she's going through this, like, how do you respond
to that?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
So she was fine during the pregnancy. At the birth,
she did hemorrhage and to lose about a leader of blood.
They were prepared for that because that had happened previously.
So the obsetrician was amazing and they were able to
treat her straight away. Was confronting at the time because
(23:35):
all of a sudden a team or emergency team were
in the room. We were kind of shuffled out of
the room. However, again they were prepared for it, so
she was fine. And then her previous pregnancy as well,
she'd had this post part and proclamsy up where her
blood pressure would drop during the pregnancy. Her previous printance
(23:58):
she had fainted blacked out during it, but again because
that had happen previously, they were quite prepared. So she
was on medication to help manage that, and she was
having daily checks as well at the hospital after the birth,
and so she was kind of on top of it. Also.
(24:19):
She managed it amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Actually, you have this really beautiful line of that she
risked her life to give us Spencer.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yes, because hemorrhaging and postpun and proclampcy are those dangerous conditions.
So she absolutely did risk her life to help another
family have a child. So I mean, I just think
that surrogates are complete angels, like they're just absolutely amazing.
If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son,
(24:47):
we wouldn't have a family, So you know, we owe
her everything.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I mean, Spencer's five is almost six. What do you
tell him about where he came from?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yes, so he doesn't actually know yet that he was
born through saragacy, but that is a conversation that we're
having with him, most likely in the next year. So
the advice we have been given is to tell him
before the age of seven, and he started prep this year,
so he's transitioning into school and into prep and once
(25:17):
he's all settled, then we will have a conversation either
later this year or next year. And one of the
best ways to do it is through a book, so
there's lots of children's books to explain surrogacy to him.
Keep it really simple as well as the advice. And
he obviously knows Leah and knows who she is, so
it'll be conversation of AUNTI, leiahctor mummy have you.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I'm sure he's very very well loved by you, especially
after the ordeal that you've been through. I really admire
your courage and strength through that because I can only
imagine how difficult that whole process was for you, but
I'm so grateful and happy that you had your happy ending.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I also wanted to talk to our resident OB and
IVF specialist, doctor Bromin Devine on the importance of the
thickness of the endometrial lining.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
You know, it's the last frontier really of getting everything
right in terms of conception and the embryo traveling down
the tube and getting itself into the uterus and actually
implanting in the uterress. Implanting in the utress is terribly
important for the health of the pregnancy and the health
of the pregnancy all the way through the pregnancy because
(26:36):
implantation problems can be associated with lots and lots of problems.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
In pregnancy, including having a very growth restricted baby or
developing preclamsier things like that all have to do with
issues around implantation. So the lining of the utress at
the time of implantation has to be perfect. It has
to be timed exactly right to accept the embryo at
exactly the right time, and it has to be healthy
(27:02):
and at a certain thickness that will allow implantation to
take place. And this is one of the most challenging
things in IVF because it can be really tricky, even
with all the hormonal support that we give for some
women to get a uterine lining that actually gets to
a thickness that will allow a healthy implantation. And when
(27:23):
we do IVF, if someone's uterine lining is not at
a level where we can feel confident about putting a
precious embryo back, we will cancel the cycle and not
put the embryo back because we know the chances of
that embryo taking and implanting is so much less. You know,
there are some women who just for one reason or another,
(27:46):
have a U turne lening that just doesn't respond. And
we've made so much progress in the world of IVF.
We're so good at creating embryos. Now, we're so good
at storing embryos. We can test embryos to see if
they have chromosome abnormalities, we can test embryos to see
if they have genetic mutations. We can do so much
stuff with IVF these days. Our culture mediums are so
(28:09):
much better. Our techniques for collecting eggs and collecting sperm
and storing things and medications that we use. Everything we
do is just got better and better with time. In
proving a uterine lining has been really challenging for us
in the IVF world, and that's why some women have
(28:30):
to go down the path of looking at surrogacy, which
is phenomenally expensive and phenomenally challenging, but for some people,
surrogacy offers them the only hope of being able to
carry out pregnancy or being able to have a child.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Cassanie Lukitch
with expert input from Dr Bronwin Devine. If you like
our show, don't forget to subscribe and rate. It goes
a long way to allowing us to continue sharing your stories.
This episode was produced by Ella Maitland and myself Cassanie Lukitch,
with audio production by Tina Mattlov
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