05 Mar 2025

On FOCAL POINT:

• Nadia Mattiazzo is a first-class advocate; leader; and articulate spokesperson. Nadia  chatted about advocacy, leadership and International Women's Day.
• David Woodbridge "Mr. Technology" introduced us to the Braille Doodle, helping people new to braille of all ages, and enabling their families; friends; and educators to be involved with the learning experience in a fun way,
• Cindy Dabrowski is taking part in Vision Australia's Graduate Program, and is about to start an internship at Bupa. Cindy encouraged others to strongly consider applying.
• Dr Richard Symes, ophthalmologist specialising in glaucoma, shared news on World Glaucoma week and the latest news in treatments and research for the condition. 

Resources: 

• Braille Doodle: https://www.touchpadprofoundation.org/
• Careers Graduate Program: https://www.visionaustralia.org/about-us/careers/graduate-program 
• World Glaucoma Week: https://www.worldglaucomaweek.org/
• Glaucoma Australia: https://glaucoma.org.au/ 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:14):
Good evening and welcome to Focal Point here on Vision
Australia Radio 1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide, online at VA radio.org.
VA Radio Digital in Adelaide and Darwin through the TuneIn
radio app. Look for Vision Australia Radio Adelaide your favourite
podcast service. Also find us Peter Greco on behalf of
Phillip Vandepeer and a big show to Wendy McDougall listening

(00:36):
in saying thank you so much for joining us. This
program coming to you from Garner Land. And if you're
in South east Queensland or north eastern New South Wales,
our thoughts are very much with you too. Coming up
on the program, we'll speak to Nadia Mattiazzo about leadership,
about advocacy, about International Women's Day. Then catch up with

(00:56):
David Woodbridge, about the Braille doodle. Heard of it? They
will give us the details. Then catch up with Cindy Dabrowski,
who will tell us about the graduate program from Vision Australia.
We spoke about it a couple of weeks ago. Cindy
is actually in it. So what is she getting out
of it? And we'll catch up with Doctor Richard Symes,
who's an ophthalmologist specialising in glaucoma. World Glaucoma Week is

(01:21):
coming up. We'll get all the latest news about that
particular condition when. Richard, if you're listening through 1190 7 a.m.
in Adelaide at 8:00 for your listening pleasure. Lizzie and
Sam are here with studio one just before we hear
what's on their programme. Well done to Tony Doyle and
also Julianne Bell for their wonderful performances during the fringe.

(01:42):
Got along last week. In fact, Tony's show was sold out.
Julian's got a show happening literally as we speak right
now with Melissa. So all the very best you find, ladies.
That was a great show. Next time they're in town,
if you get a chance to go along, go along.
And a reminder for our friends listening through where? Western Australia.

(02:03):
If you would like to vote independently at this Saturday's election,
you can ring 13680136800 and register. Let's find out what's
on Studio Anna tonight.

S2 (02:17):
Hey there, it's Lizzie. I've taken over the reins and
am flying this ship solo to celebrate International Women's Day.
We'll be hearing from two guests about their inspiring stories.
Join us at 8:00 for studio one.

S1 (02:33):
With Nadia Mattiazzo. So fine and fabulous. Advocate also a
leader in many of her roles in her past, and
it's great to welcome to the program. Nadia. Always great
to catch up. Thanks for your time.

S3 (02:44):
Thank you for letting me join your meeting.

S1 (02:48):
You're very kind. Tell us about how you got bitten
by the advocacy bug. How did it happen for you?

S3 (02:53):
Basically, I was born blind. Heads. You know, you even
as a kid, you know, when I stop and think
about it, I was always advocating for things that I
wanted or, you know, the way I needed something to happen.
You know, it might have not have been obvious in
my childlike mind at three, four, five, whatever. But, um,

(03:16):
you know, I think as a person with disability, you
are always an advocate for yourself or, you know, you
just let things happen. And I'm not one to let
things happen. But probably really, when I started advocating for
myself was probably more in high school when like for
primary school, I went to a school that was particularly

(03:39):
set up for blind and vision impaired kids. So really
they knew what they were doing pretty much once they
hit high school and went to my local school where
I was in, you know, in a class of, say,
44 kids, I had to advocate for myself because if
I didn't, I'd miss out. I'd lose out and I'd
not do well at school. So really, from then on

(04:02):
I became an advocate for myself and then got interested
in advocacy later on down the track for to support
other people and to empower other people, hopefully to learn
how to be an advocate or to look at a
different way of being an advocate, maybe than they were,

(04:23):
you know, sharing the love, I guess.

S1 (04:25):
It's interesting, isn't it? Because, as you said, at primary school,
it was sort of with other kids who were blind
or low vision, you know, in that sort of setting
then high school, it's different. Of course, a lot of
things are changing at that age as well, like in
your kind of outside school life as well in terms
of but, you know, yeah, sort of growing up and, uh,
you know, puberty, all that sort of stuff.

S3 (04:45):
Absolutely. And, and I guess the expectation that people had
of you as a person with a disability, um, like
I remember arguing with my gym teacher because he thought
that I wouldn't, you know, that I couldn't play sports.

(05:05):
And then you're sure there were some things I couldn't do?
And he was always worried when we were doing sit
ups that I'd hit my head on the ground. So
he'd always give me his tracksuit jacket to use as
a cushioning for the back of my head. And I
just found that humiliating and embarrassing. And so, not to
mention the fact that you were going through, you know,

(05:26):
the changes in your body and those kind of things
you're dealing with that you're dealing with peer group pressure,
and you wanted to be like everybody else. And you
were also trying to, I guess, educate people around how
you wanted to be treated. And then you had to
also then advocate for your own education. It was like exhausting.

(05:49):
I never felt it was exhausting. But thinking back on it,
I'm just tired thinking about it.

S1 (05:54):
It's something that advocates talk about, isn't it? It's not
the fact that they advocate, which is all well and good,
but it's how much it takes out of you. You know,
when you're living, living life as it should be led anyway.

S3 (06:05):
Well, it's every minute of every day, pretty much, except
when you're on your own, in your own house, in
a familiar environment, you know, every other time. Like this morning,
I went to a doctor. I had to advocate for
myself because the doctor was actually afraid of dogs. Um, so,
you know, I had to I had, you know, it

(06:25):
was it was something that I needed to go to
see a doctor about. I was a bit stressed about it.
And then to have the additional stress of the doctor saying,
I'm really wanting to help you, but I'm so scared
of the dog. I can't let you, you know, you
can't come into the office. And it's like, good grief,
so what do we do next? And so we kind
of stood there and figured out something in the end.

(06:46):
And I was talking with another doctor, but nobody else
has to go through that. You know, your average person
doesn't have to go through that. They just make an appointment,
walk into the doctor a stressed by whatever they're going
to see the doctor about, but not any other things.
And yet we often have additional stresses.

S1 (07:05):
When you left to go to the doctor this morning,
that wasn't on your mind, was it was preparing for
something like that?

S3 (07:10):
No, no I wasn't. And, you know, it's just a
reality check every now and then. You know, you get
a reaction and it's like, okay, I'm stressed now. Do
I snap? Do I how do I respond to this?
Do I antagonize the situation. Do I just sit back
and say, okay, set me up with another doctor? You know,
and yet dealing with that as well as, you know,

(07:32):
dealing with. Well, I'm worried about the thing that I'm
seeing the doctor about. You know, you don't need extra stresses.

S1 (07:39):
That is such a great point, isn't it? I mean,
how do you deal with a situation like that? You
kind of can't make a scene and, you know, then
everyone sort of is less good about things. Or do
you kind of try and, uh, sort of, uh, what's
the word? Intelligently. You know, emotional intelligence use that to
kind of work through the situation in a very calculated way.
If it's easy in hindsight, isn't it? Absolutely.

S3 (08:00):
And I mean, I made a judgment call in the
spirit on the spur of the moment. This woman was
really scared of the dog, so. And I wasn't with anybody,
so I couldn't leave my dog anywhere. And I said,
so you're expecting me to leave your dog, to leave
my dog somewhere? And she said, no, no, no, I
really don't know what to do. And I said, okay, so,
you know, let's, let's not continue this conversation. I said, okay,

(08:24):
so would you be happy if I asked to see
another doctor? And she was relieved. And in the end,
that was the thing that, you know, it was the
easiest solution, not the happiest solution, because frankly, she's a GP.
She should be able to see anybody. But I wasn't
going to win that one like, you know, so you
just make it a spur of the moment judgment call,

(08:45):
I guess.

S1 (08:46):
What about the leadership stuff? Now you've you've led a
number of organizations there. I like asking this question. I
don't think there's a right or wrong answer. In fact,
I'm sure there isn't. Is there a leaders born or made?

S3 (08:58):
Um hmm. That's an interesting question. I think some are
born and some are made. Can I sit on the fence?
Good answer. You know, I think that if you're a
good advocate and you listen to other people and you
learn from other people often, that will help you to

(09:19):
become a good leader. If you're a good advocate and
you are confident in your own advocacy and you don't
have time, or you're not interested in listening to other people's.
You know, I guess their views, you know, then then
maybe not. So a good leader, but you're a good

(09:39):
advocate and some people are never going to be good leaders,
and some people are never going to be good advocates.
So I think it's just, you know, um. What what
you become interested in what your experiences are in life
and the things that you enjoy doing. I mean, I
know in my leadership opportunities that I've had both at

(09:59):
VCA and at women with Disabilities Victoria and a number
of reference groups that I may have been on or
chaired or, um, those kind of things. I've enjoyed leading
and growing organisations and developing organisations and listening to staff
and other committee members, for example, and learning from them.

(10:22):
I think, you know, being open to feedback is is
really important if you're going to be a good leader.

S1 (10:28):
What about so we've got International Women's Day coming up.
Any thoughts about that. Because again I've spoken to women
who think it's the greatest thing in the world. And
other women think, oh, it's a bit too tokenistic, you know, uh,
not not so enthused about it. What about you?

S3 (10:42):
So I looked up the, uh, the theme for this year. And,
you know, it's kind of the same but different for
all women and girls rights, equality and empowerment. You know,
this is something that we bang on about all our lives.
And it's not only women with disabilities, I'm sure it's
men with disabilities, boys also, you know, you want to

(11:06):
be empowered. You want opportunity, you want equality, you want
you have rights like everybody else. I don't know, I
think it's a good reminder of something that we should
all be aware of. But why does it have to
be just one day or one week? Why can't it

(11:28):
just be something that you do every day in your life?
You support the empowerment of other people and it doesn't
have to be women and girls. I mean women and girls. Yes,
we know they are more marginalised than, you know, some
men and boys, but everyone with a disability should be empowered,

(11:48):
should have rights, should be equal to everybody else. So
it's something that we as a civilization should work to
every day of our lives, not just, you know, on Saturday.

S1 (12:01):
Yeah. What about the the leadership role and being a woman?
Do you think you've had to kind of earn your
stripes more than you know? If you're a bloke, do
you reckon? Yeah.

S3 (12:10):
Yeah. In in short, yes. I think, you know, working
with a women's organisation I think gave me a safe
space to develop my leadership skills. I think in other
areas there have been times when I have experienced behaviour
that I feel is dominant and that is not quite bullying,

(12:32):
but is manipulative, um, that, you know, doesn't treat you
the same as, say, if I.

S4 (12:40):
Was a white male.

S3 (12:43):
Older male kind of thing with more experience. So I
think it has been a challenge. Um, but I've enjoyed
the challenge and I think I've benefited from and I've
learned from okay, this is not people aren't listening to
me or they're not taking me seriously. How do I
make someone take me seriously? So it's actually helped me

(13:05):
to to become a stronger person. You know? I know
it can have absolutely demoralizing impacts on other people. And
there have been days when I have felt a bit challenged. But,
you know, there are there are days when I feel
like I've really achieved things as a woman with disability
and leadership roles.

S1 (13:23):
It's a great point because often it's the way you
come back from a knock back that, uh, sort of
defines you even more, doesn't it?

S3 (13:29):
Exactly. And sometimes you just have to sit and let
things happen and let people react in a particular way
or act in a particular way. And, you know, sometimes
they'll realize what they're doing, and other times they don't
realize what they're doing or how they're being, um, and
you take them aside at the end of the day

(13:50):
and you say, you know what? You didn't give me
an opportunity to speak, or you spoke over me, or
you didn't ask me for my opinion or whatever it
was that bothered you at the time. And people often
don't realize they've done because.

S1 (14:04):
You've achieved quite a bit at a young age, too.
I'm not sure if that's sort of a triple disadvantage.
You know, women young and also were vision impaired. I mean,
you kind of conquered three mountains in a way.

S3 (14:16):
Oh, look. Yeah, you're a bit right, I think I
think that's um, you know, there are other people, I guess,
coming into the advocacy field now, and I've seen women
with disabilities, Victoria that are younger than I was, you know, 17, 18,

(14:37):
1819 year olds that understand things that at 19 I
had no idea about. So I thank you for the compliment, Peter.
But truly, there are young people out there these days
that totally, um, I'm absolutely aghast at what they know
and how they reflect on things and how they respond

(15:00):
to things. You know, like I said, at 19, all
I wanted to know about was probably where the next
party was to an extent, or I have to finish
this essay or whatever it was. And there are there
are young people out there that are just that have
done so much in, you know, by that age. And
I just think, good grief, I'm in awe of them.

S1 (15:22):
Yeah. But anyway, I take your point. I take your point,
and I appreciate your modesty, but you've kind of been
a bit of a trailblazer in that area, and I
think it absolutely right. I mean, I think young people
these days are probably better educated or A better adjusted,
if I can put it that way than those in
the past, but a lot of it. They should be
able to thank those that have gone before them as
well to have kind of, you know, laid the laid,

(15:45):
laid the path or laid the foundations for that.

S3 (15:48):
Thanks, Taylor. Um, for the compliment and. Yes, um, I mean,
I know that as a younger person, I admired a
number of other people, both men and women with disabilities,
who were, I guess, trailblazers before I came into.

S4 (16:07):
The advocacy.

S3 (16:09):
And leadership space. Um, and I did learn from them,
from some of them. So, you know, I don't know
where we begin the whole story of, um, learning from
our peers. But I guess there was someone back in
the dim, dark ages that started all this off, and
whoever it was. Thank you.

S1 (16:32):
Nadia. Thank you. I could talk to you for hours.
I really appreciate you speaking to us. I had a
bit of a think of who would be good to
talk about these sort of things. And your name came
into my head, and you haven't disappointed.

S3 (16:43):
Thanks, Peter, and thanks for the opportunity. And I just
want to acknowledge International Women's Day that comes up this
Saturday for everybody. And please keep the theme in your
minds and, um, you know, act on it daily, not
just on Saturday.

S1 (17:00):
Wish you well Nadia. Thank you. Nadia. Nadia Lita, advocate
and a wonderful interviewee as well. Always good to hear
about different technology. We think that just a little bit different.
And the best person to speak to about it is

(17:20):
that David Woodbridge. David, always great to catch up.

S5 (17:22):
Same here. Absolutely. I feel like we haven't talked for
a long time, so it's nice to be back again.

S1 (17:26):
Oh, yeah. You're welcome anytime. Now the brow doodle. That's
a very cool name.

S5 (17:31):
It is. And for people that have sighted children, this
comes from sort of the magnitude of where you've got
magnetic pins underneath the surface. And as you draw across
the line with a pen or something like that, it
comes up in lines, well, this is the same, but
because it's a Braille doodle for doodling around and drawing stuff,
this pulls pins up that are on an array. And

(17:52):
line wise, I guess you've got what, 21 lines down,
I want to say, and probably about 28 characters across.
So it's a good size and it's really fun to
draw on. The stylus basically is magnetic, so when you
draw the stylus across, it pulls up the pins and
then to, of course, get rid of the pins or
flatten everything. You just take your hand or the stylus

(18:15):
and just rub it across the array and it all
goes down again. So that's just one side of it. So,
you know, even that's pretty exciting. So if I did
that now let me just do an online demo. I'm
going to draw a circle. There you go. I've just
done a circle.

S1 (18:29):
That's pretty cool fake to scrub it all out. I reckon.
Kids would love that. I mean, adults would love that too.

S5 (18:34):
They do. And when I got it, um, I started
drawing all sorts of things, and I even took it
on the plane with me. Um, I went somewhere last week,
and I had it on the plane. I was even doodling,
but as they say on the TV. But wait, there's more.
So on the back now, this is where it really
comes alive. Um, on the back of it, you've got

(18:54):
the alphabet, so you've got like a to what is it,
a to I and you've got H to another, another letter,
but you've got different rows of these now next to
each row, next to each letter you've got a print letter.
And then above that you've got two cells. One is
your sample cell where you can actually play on how

(19:15):
to do the dots. So for the letter H so one,
two and five. But then there's another cell which is
almost like a test cell only. And the only dots
that come up in that cell are the dots for
that braille letter. So if you try and press three
or 6 or 3, they won't come up. Yeah. So
that's that's actually pretty amazing. And I thought that was really,

(19:36):
really clever. Again, with just the pins and your stylus
bringing the pins up, and then you've got a row
of uh, so our interaction so you've got and four
of with the and the number sewn and the capital letter.
And then right down the bottom, you've got a nice
line in Braille which is basically A to Z. And

(19:58):
below that you've got my favorite test sentence. The quick
brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. Um, yeah, exactly. Now,
I should say that the braille on the back is, quote,
normal sized braille, but the actual where the dots pull
up and on the front of the bay where you
pull up the dots when you're doing a tactile drawing,

(20:19):
I would call that jumbo braille. So the dots, because
of the pins coming up, are slightly further apart than
you would normally have on a, you know, a Perkins Brailler,
but you can still do amazing drawings in the front
and you can still practice in the back. And of course,
if you wanted to on the front of it, you
just don't have to do tactile drawings. You can actually
do Braille if you like. So, you know, you can

(20:42):
just decide that, you know, each each dot or each
group of, you know, six dots in a column or
row is your Braille cells. So you can actually happily,
you know, Braille away on the front of it. So
it is pretty cool. But what I got really excited about,
I thought as a manual way of doing Braille, number one,
this would be great for children for pre braille. So

(21:04):
fulfilling stuff tactically but also and you mentioned right off
the top of your head. But I didn't have the
impromptu for it was Spivey. So the South Pacific educators
for visual impairment particularly in Fiji and Papua New Guinea,
this would be an absolutely brilliant way of introducing all
the children that want to learn Braille. This would be
absolutely perfect for that type of situation.

S1 (21:25):
And pretty reasonably priced too, given the fact that some
of those countries don't have as much money as they'd
like to have. Well, I guess we're all in that boat,
but you know what I mean.

S5 (21:32):
Correct. And, you know, rather than being, you know, 2500
or most for a Perkins these days, this thing is $310. So, um,
that's incredibly worthwhile. And when you get it, you get, uh,
two tactile templates that you can put on the top
of it. One's for sort of lining up for grids
for doing mathematics, and the other one's for doing a

(21:53):
little bit of a house drawing. And funnily enough, Peter
in the box, there's actually a piece of paper with
braille on it for some instructions. They've got a nice
little QR code and that's even got Braille around it. So,
you know, it's a QR code and that takes you
to all the goodness for the Touch Pro Foundation who
produce it. Uh, information on actually how to use the product,

(22:14):
which I must admit, Peter, I didn't read, did I?
So I had to end up doing three podcasts.

S1 (22:20):
Because.

S5 (22:20):
I just thought, you know, oh, well, Look, I know
what it is. I'll do the front of it and
I'll do the back of it. And then the guys
from Touch Pro Foundation very nicely said. Hey, David, you
know those two cells on the back above the print
letter and the braille letter. They're your practice areas. One's
a sample and one's your experiment. Women are the study
of old. You know, the the old team that I

(22:42):
still tell people I got caught myself this time, so. Well, you.

S1 (22:46):
Probably never read a manual in your life. So you
would just sail through this as well?

S5 (22:50):
Exactly. No, only, only only special people read Mendel's.

S1 (22:54):
Apparently I read first. Old tactile. No audio feedback at all. Nope, nope.

S5 (22:59):
It's all tactile. There's no batteries, there's no power, there's
no nothing. You've simply got the magnetic pins inside it.
You've got the holes on the course to, you know,
pull up, pull up the pins. The stylus is attached
by a little expandable lanyard type thing that you can
pull out. Then you can put it away on its side.
It makes you know when you tip it over, of course,
because it's got pins and it makes this sort of

(23:21):
sound like one of those little, you know, little things
for children, for playing music. The plays, the sound of rain. Okay. Uh,
that's actually pretty cool. When I saw this initially a
couple of years ago, they'd really only done the front
of it. So they really only did sort of the, the,
the tactile stuff at the front. They didn't actually have
the back of it with all the braille on it.
But I just thought, when you think of this thing

(23:41):
as like because I, I with the F1 season coming
up for the, you know, for the racing in Melbourne
with Albert Park, I even, I even got, I even
got my wife to draw the F1 racing track on
the front of it.

S1 (23:53):
I don't idea what the track's shape.

S5 (23:55):
Yeah I did. I know.

S1 (23:57):
How cool.

S5 (23:58):
Yeah, the the curve and the hairpins that look thing
being pins. Like being rows in a column. You're not
going to get like a perfect curve or a perfect
circle and so on. But my goodness, it really does
give you the shape. So you know I don't have
to go and use my tactile embosser or my monarch
or anything else or my Mountbatten. I can just whip

(24:19):
this out and do it and do a quick drawing.
It's just it's just incredible. So it's one of those
devices that when it comes out you think, why hasn't
this been done before? Yeah.

S1 (24:28):
So you talked about playing with it with your wife
when the appealing things you got siblings that can play.
I mean, educators themselves could probably benefit from something like
this as well in the classroom. That's right.

S5 (24:39):
Exactly. And I was even thinking maybe even just taking
this out on the road. And so just like, you know,
if you are an instructor and they say, well, look,
let me draw this roundabout for you. It's got five
intersections rather than three or example. And they can actually
do the intersection. Um, they could do a like a
grid of streets and so on. And you know, it
really has flexibility because it truly is a tactile system.

(25:02):
So from that point of view, it's great. My grandson
who's three, his mum and him actually do drawings on
it now to try and to try and get Poppy
to determine what the drawing is. Uh, what.

S1 (25:14):
About in terms of its sturdiness? Because it's fairly light.
I believe.

S5 (25:17):
It's.

S1 (25:18):
Yeah.

S5 (25:18):
Look, it's.

S1 (25:19):
Uh, I.

S5 (25:20):
Probably it is. So I'm not even sure how much
it weighs. I want to say it's about a third
of a.

S1 (25:25):
I think I saw somewhere half a kilo, but I
could be wrong. Yeah, that's.

S5 (25:28):
Probably I was going to say it's probably the half
the weight of my MacBook air. I tried to compare
it back to computers, but. Yeah. And look, size wise,
I mean, I know I said it was about, you know,
20 lines long and 28 characters wide, but it almost
feels like you've got an iPad or something in your hand. Um,
and it's 3D printed. So you've got, you know, it's

(25:48):
got very nice edges on it. It's got like raised corners.
So it's off the desk a little bit. It's it's
just I don't know, it's just extremely well designed and
it's just, you know, it's just an impressive piece of technology.
So I would suggest that anybody who's after a bit
of a thing just to do some little basic tactile

(26:09):
drawings on it or learn Braille, I mean, $300. I mean,
I know for some people that's a lot of money.
But then again, you know, having to spend horrendous amounts
of money just to learn Braille. So for.

S1 (26:20):
Kids from about three, they reckon that's.

S5 (26:23):
Right. Yeah. And the fact that the front of it here,
I mean I can just, you know, if I was
doing pre-learning Braille, I could say to somebody, look, you know,
I just did a line there and I'd just say,
you know, can you can you follow that line, you know,
can you can you track that line across or how
many dots do you think are up or what's this,
what's this particular shape? And, you know, because the dots

(26:45):
are a little bit further apart than standard Braille, that's
going to make it easier for children. Then once you
get that done, you can turn it over and say, okay,
so this is what a real Braille letter B is for.
You've got one above the other. And so this is
the big one at the front. That's your B. And
if we turn it over that's what your little B
feels like in proper braille. So again it's just that flexibility.

(27:08):
And I think that this thing you can just do
it to your imagination you know guys.

S1 (27:12):
Yeah yeah, I David, you touched on where it comes from.
As in which company puts this out.

S5 (27:16):
Yes. It's the it's the Touch Pro foundation. Um, Virgin
Australia actually sells it in Australia and I should say
also New Zealand, because I went and checked on the
website for New Zealand and it's there as well. And
I think it only became available in Australia probably about
two weeks ago. So about the middle of February as
we go to air and, you know, again, it's very,
you know, it's just compared to other things like, I

(27:38):
don't know if I talked to you about another thing
called the versa bra, but that's like your old fashioned
magnetic back to front left, right to left, um, hand frame.
This is nothing like that. This is just you put
your you put your pencil, your stylus down, you pull
out the pins, or you draw it across the whole
surface to pull up a line and off you go.
So no, again, just very straightforward.

S1 (28:00):
Okay. So people can contact Virgin Australia if they want
more information. Like a lot of good ideas, David, as
you touched on, you know, why didn't someone think of
this before? Exactly.

S5 (28:09):
I mean, this would have been I mean, look, I
know I've got 3D printing, but 3D printing has been
around for a long time. But, um, Daniel, the gentleman
who's been a teacher for 25 years, he just sat down,
I think it was about 4 or 5 maybe years ago,
and just thought there must be an easier and cheaper
way of actually allowing children and also adults to learn
to learn Braille. So and this is what he came

(28:31):
up with. So it's a charity and it's just, you know,
they've been selling like hotcakes overseas. I just hope somebody
that's listening to us chat about it now and, you know,
like people like, um, Ben Clare, um, yeah. You know,
jump on the bandwagon and order some for the Pacific
region because, you know, like I was saying before we

(28:51):
started the program or maybe during the program because I
get so excited when I talk about tech. Um, you know,
people don't have access to this type of technology or
it's too expensive or they don't have regular power. This thing,
you don't need power. You could just sit there and
play to your heart's content. As long as you got
the Braille doodle and the stylus, off you go. Braille doodle.

S1 (29:09):
We'll put some information up on our show notes as
well for people to check out. David, always great to
catch up. We'll speak again soon, I'm sure.

S5 (29:16):
Excellent.

S1 (29:16):
That's the hashtag, Mr. Technology, talking just about the brow doodle.
You're listening to Focal.

S6 (29:23):
Point on Vision Australia radio, on.

S1 (29:25):
VA radio.

S6 (29:26):
Digital and online at VA radio.org.

S1 (29:29):
Hope you're enjoying the program. Well, recently we spoke to
Rachel Ramsdale regarding the graduate program that Australia offer. Rachel
is calling for candidates. We're speaking to someone who's right
in the middle of it. Cindy Dabrowski. Cindy, welcome and
thank you for your time.

S4 (29:46):
Oh thank you Peter. Hello.

S1 (29:48):
How did you hear about the program and what made
you decide to get into it?

S4 (29:52):
Well, I first heard from my employment consultant because after
I finished all my studies, I felt a bit lost
when I was looking for work. And also a lot
of the jobs that I was looking at. They either
needed you to have a driver's license or prior experience
also felt a bit lost with whether to disclose about

(30:12):
my vision loss to potential employers. So yeah, I felt
I needed help. So I went to Vision Australia and
my employment consultant told me about the program.

S1 (30:21):
Yeah, well, I guess if we go back a step,
this is kind of your second life in a way.
In a previous life, you were kind of working in
a more conventional way. You had been it was a
more conventional employment.

S4 (30:33):
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I was born with high myopia,
but I sort of was managing well with glasses and
contact lenses. So, yeah, my husband and I, we run
our own business, a retail wholesale business. So yeah, that
was my life before the program.

S1 (30:47):
Can I ask about what happened to you or what
sort of, uh, saw you, uh, visit Vision Australia?

S4 (30:53):
Yeah, I had a retinal detachment because of the short sightedness. And, um. Yeah,
after many surgeries and vision in one eye and, yeah,
I had to change career so I could no longer
drive and continue the business. So what was that like?

S1 (31:07):
We'll talk about the graduate program in a second. But
what was that like? Because I was spoken to many
people over the years and like having to give up
their license. One of the toughest things. I mean, the
site situation is bad, but I guess the feeling of
losing that independence is a very powerful message that I
guess only those that have been through it in a
sense can understand. Yeah.

S4 (31:25):
For sure. Yeah, it was a big loss. And all
of us, not only that, you know, you can no
longer sort of continue the work and then the financial
struggles as well that, that go with that. But, um, yeah,
just having to depend on others as well to drive you.
But I gradually grew confidence like catching public transport as

(31:46):
well and kind of accepting as well that. Yeah, my
husband is great. He's my taxi driver. Uh, so yeah,
he drives me around most of the time, though.

S1 (31:57):
Just got some unlucky enough in our life to be
like that. Should be very, very grateful every day Happy
to tell us a bit about your situation at the moment, Cindy?

S4 (32:07):
Yeah, well, like I said, I'm completely blind in one side,
but I still have a vision in my other side
when I wear a contact lens and, and glasses. So
I have some vision in it then. So I call
myself sort of low vision at the moment.

S1 (32:23):
So you heard about the program, but what made you
decide to enter it? What was the kind of selling factor,
if I can put it that way, you thought, yes,
I want to be part of this.

S4 (32:31):
Yeah, well, the selling factor, the main thing before I
started it was to get that foot in the door
and to gain full, full time employment and to learn
skills as well and build those connections. Because when you're
just starting out, like I had to change career and
you sort of have really not a very good network,
hardly anyone, um, apart from other students. But they, you know,

(32:55):
a lot of those are looking for work as well.
So you're kind of competing with them. So yeah, it
was definitely to build those connections. And it's also a
paid role, which is fantastic. That took a lot of
the pressure off. Yeah, yeah. So you could sort of uh,
you didn't just feel you needed to just take anything.

(33:16):
You could really focus on on gaining sort of that
experience in your chosen field.

S1 (33:22):
Yeah. I think you're about to do an internship or
a placement. We'll come to that in a second. But
what sort of things have you done? What sort of
things have you enjoyed? What sort of things have you
got out of this?

S4 (33:30):
Well, currently I'm actually in two teams, so Vision Australia,
I really try and match you with roles that align with,
you know, your studies and your passions. They, you know, uh,
establish that in the interviews that you do with them.
So they, um, one of the teams is called the
wellbeing team. So I provide one on one support with
them for people that have low vision or are blind

(33:52):
to cope with that emotional impact of vision loss, and
this is really my passion and that this is what
I studied and trained in. And then the other team
is Intellilink, and that was facilitating group work. So that
really pushed me out of my comfort zone, because I'd
never done any work with a group. But I really
enjoyed that experience and I'm glad I, you know, I

(34:15):
sort of overcome the nerves, and I really came to
love connecting with people and learned a lot from the
participants because I was put in like a smart tech
group and a gardening group and social groups and quizzes.
So it was it was a lot of fun as well. Yeah.

S1 (34:31):
So getting out of your comfort zone as they like
to say.

S4 (34:33):
That's right. Oh yeah. For sure. Yeah, that that was
sort of one of the challenges in the beginning. It
was a bit sort of scary and nerve wracking to, yeah,
start doing these things that you never done before. But
I really felt that it helped when I, you know,
used my transferable skills that I developed in, you know,

(34:54):
from running a business and my prior work in retail
and hospitality and that sort of came through, I feel
helped me.

S1 (35:03):
Yeah. What about your replacement of, uh, internship? What do
you call that? That's coming up soon, isn't it?

S4 (35:08):
Yeah, it's that's another great thing about this program. It comes, like,
with a 3 to 4 month internship. And like I
was saying before, really big benefit was those connections. So
Vision Australia, they match up with a body that has
completed the program. So my VA body, um, he connected
me with his previous employer and where he started his internship,

(35:31):
and then he worked there for five years, which was
with Bupa. So yeah, I feel fantastic. I'm actually starting
that on Monday.

S1 (35:38):
Okay.

S4 (35:39):
Yeah.

S1 (35:40):
Oh good luck. I mean, yeah, it's so cool because,
I mean, I guess it doesn't matter as long as
you get an opportunity, but it's like a very well
known big corporate entity. So, you know, it's kind of
good to get into something like that. And in a
sense you'll be kind of advocating for, for people like
your previous or like your buddy did previously.

S4 (35:58):
Exactly, yes. Yeah, I was told I have, you know,
big shoes to fill. So the pressure is on.

S1 (36:04):
So that's all you need a bit more pressure.

S4 (36:06):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a new challenge as well because
we work that I've never done before. But yeah, they
were very welcoming. I've had sort of my assessment there
because Australia looks after that as well. So when you
have your internship to make sure that you've got everything
you need to succeed.

S1 (36:22):
Yeah, obviously. And I mean, from the kind of spots
we talked about, the fact that this is kind of
your second life, if you like. So the graduate program,
it doesn't matter what age you are. I mean, you
kind of think graduates someone in their early 20s out
of uni, but that doesn't have to be the case.

S4 (36:36):
Exactly. Yeah, I really appreciated that. That Vision Australia sort
of had that insight that it wasn't just for people just,
you know, that came out of high school and then university.
They were in their early 20s. But, you know, people
like me that sort of had to change careers mid life.
And yeah, they really made that career decision and possible

(36:57):
the through the program because it would have been really
tough if uh, I feel if it wasn't for the program.

S1 (37:04):
But we had a bit of a chat off there. You,
you know, you're very enthusiastic. You're very passionate. Obviously there's
years and years of employment ahead of you, so it
doesn't matter what age you are, if you've got a
long time ahead of you, you're going to be a good,
you know, investment in quotes for an organization to take
you on.

S4 (37:19):
Oh thank you. Yeah. I still felt, you know, when
I had to change careers, I felt I had still
lots of energy and I, you know, to start again
and to I still had a lot to give as well.
You know, uh, just was going to look differently to
what I was doing before, but I'm so glad I
did because it sort of redirected, gave me purpose again.

(37:41):
And yeah, the rest.

S1 (37:43):
As they say, is history. That big thing. I mean,
you talk about, oh yeah, you're getting remunerated for this,
which is great and that sort of thing. But yeah,
those kind of intangible things that they're very, very powerful
and important as well.

S4 (37:55):
That's right. And confidence. That's all of it. I've gained
so much confidence, and I felt when I went for
my assessment in Bupa, I felt so much more confident
than that first day at Virgin Australia. So just in
those few months, you know, from my experience at in
the grad role, I feel so much more confident.

S1 (38:14):
That's a very powerful message. Yeah, that's that's very affirming
for the graduate program to think that, you know, someone
is feeling like that. I mean, it's obviously, you know, really,
really working.

S4 (38:23):
Yes. Yeah. I feel with all that support because, you know, besides,
like I said, you get a body, but you also
get a mentor, you get supervisors, the employment consultant, other
peers in the office. So, you know, you're so well
supported and that really gives you that sort of belief that, hey,
you know, with this support, I can really, uh, you know,

(38:44):
have a good crack at this and succeed.

S1 (38:46):
I think the in your previous life, did you do
some television appearances I did.

S4 (38:51):
Yes.

S1 (38:52):
I talked about that.

S4 (38:54):
I know I was on the TV on those infomercials.
Believe it or not. Yeah.

S1 (39:01):
What was.

S4 (39:01):
That? Yeah. Oh, fun. I think from memory, that guy
that used to be on the Kerri-anne show on the Jamie,
what's his name?

S1 (39:10):
Uh, Jamie? Um, no. Uh, yeah.

S4 (39:13):
He still did all those infomercials on channel nine, too,
for years on end. But, yeah, I used to do
a teddy bear show with him because I sold collectible
teddy bears. Oh. How cool. Yeah. So, yeah, I was
I was the the person, you know, with the voice like, and,
you know, and there's more or. Yes.

S1 (39:34):
It made an impression on you for life.

S4 (39:36):
Yes, indeed. Yes. And now, first time on the radio
as well, Peter.

S1 (39:41):
Oh, well, I mean, now you've made the big time.
I mean, television, anyone can do it. Radio is very special.

S4 (39:48):
Our belief. So yes, I agree. Uh.

S1 (39:51):
That's terrific. Well, as I said, we spoke to Rachel
the other day and we've got a link for people
to go to our show notes and they can find
out more about the program. But, I mean, if someone
out there who's listening or they know someone who could
potentially be interested, what would you say to them?

S4 (40:06):
For sure, I'd say do it because it is a
foot in the door and your new career and, um,
maybe I what really stuck with me is this metaphor
from my mentor. And she said, once you're on the trapeze,
swinging to the next one is so much easier than
jumping off the ground. And I really feel that thanks
to this program, I'm sort of now off the ground.

(40:28):
I'm on that trapeze, and I'm now swinging so much
easier to swing to that next. Like the internship and the,
you know, Bupa sort of experience opportunity with confidence. So
yeah do it. It's uh, it's a great program.

S1 (40:42):
He's got a beautiful word picture and sort of image
to be portraying.

S4 (40:46):
Trying. Yes. It stuck with me. It really? Yeah.

S1 (40:49):
I just I try, you know, to get off the
ground is one thing. But when you can swing from
trapeze to trapeze, that's that's kind of really making it.

S4 (40:56):
Yes. And that's what this program does. Yeah. It keeps
you off the ground.

S1 (41:01):
Well, you've you've lifted our spirits today too, as well, Cindy.
Talking to you. So thank you for that. Now we'll
put the link up with our show notes, as I said.
But I think people have got till the end of
March to apply and then sort of see what happens
from there. But it sounds like it's certainly worked for you,
and I guess it can work for you if you're
listening out there and think it might apply to you

(41:22):
as well.

S4 (41:22):
Yes. And I look forward even to be someone's body
in the future.

S1 (41:26):
There you go. That's enough. We can't refuse. We love
to talk to you. And we wish you well.

S4 (41:32):
Oh, thank you so much, Peter. It was a pleasure.

S1 (41:35):
That's Cindy Dabrowski there, who's one of the graduates in
the programme for Australia. As I mentioned before, we want
more details to our show notes or oh, why is
he calling us here at the radio station? 1308474106. Well,
coming up very shortly is National Glaucoma Week. Let's chat

(41:56):
about it with a glaucoma specialist ophthalmologist, Doctor Richard Psalms. Richard,
great to meet you. And thank you for your time.

S7 (42:02):
Oh, thanks very much, Peter. Thanks for having me. Now, we've.

S1 (42:05):
Been talking about glaucoma for four years on this program,
and the message has always been, get yourself tested regularly.
And if you've got family history, you know, start at
an early age and maybe test more regularly. Is it
kind of any update to that, or is that message
as true today as it was 20 or 30 years ago?
Oh yeah.

S7 (42:21):
Peter, that's a really good message still, because as you know,
glaucoma is known as the sneak thief of sight. So
it's possible to have glaucoma, even fairly advanced disease, and
not be aware of it. The brain is a very
could be very clever and can fill in those little
bits of peripheral vision that go missing. And so what?

(42:43):
What you said still holds very true. So particularly if
you've got a family history of glaucoma, early detection is
is very important. Um, and that can be just as
simple as going along for a routine eye test at
the optometrist.

S1 (42:57):
What about as far as diagnosing it early or getting
it earlier? Is that improved or changed much over the time?

S7 (43:04):
Well, yeah. So we've had a lot of progress over
the last ten years or so to help us out
with diagnosis. We've got better software. We've got better imaging
of the optic nerve head. The optic nerve, of course,
is the is the target for glaucoma, the part of
the eye that gets damaged. And we are sitting, I think,

(43:26):
just just at the bottom of a of a kind
of hill in terms of ongoing progress. And what that's
going to look like over the next few years is
incorporation of of genetics into diagnosis, so this isn't yet
widely available, but is likely to become more mainstream over
the next few years. So that's seeing whether somebody has

(43:48):
got the genes that predispose them to glaucoma. And the
other the other thing I think that we can be
looking forward to over the next few years as AI
starts to take off is, uh, help from AI in
making a diagnosis and early diagnosis of glaucoma in cases
now where we might not be 100% sure if somebody

(44:09):
has the disease or not.

S1 (44:11):
And that early diagnosis means better treatment and less bad outcomes,
if I can put it that way.

S7 (44:16):
Absolutely, yes. So the earlier the disease is detected, the
better the outcomes are likely to be. And one of
the things that we worry about most of all, maybe
is somebody who might be at risk of glaucoma, who
goes along to their optometrist. And there's a few little
signs maybe, but nothing convincing. And then that person might
go away for a number of years that, you know,

(44:38):
life might take over. And then next time they go
to the optometrist, possibly many years later, there's already established damage.
So that's the thing that we really want to avoid.
And it would be fantastic if, uh, at that initial visit,
genetic analysis reveals that the patient has a very high
risk of developing glaucoma, maybe, um, and perhaps vision loss

(45:00):
later on in life. And if we can be aware
of that at an earlier stage, it makes things so
much more straightforward in terms of follow up and monitoring
and treatment.

S1 (45:10):
I like that term. Life gets in the way. I
think we can all identify with that. Uh, all of
a sudden we find so many things to do and
we don't get back to the doctor or whoever it
is that we should have got back to. So in
terms of the damage that's done, that's not reversible once
it's done. Is it done?

S7 (45:25):
Yes. Unfortunately, once the optic nerve starts to become damaged,
it is not reversible. So the optic nerve has a
little bit of reserve in it. So it can it
can take some damage before we actually start to see
changes in the visual field developing. But if the damage
continues on and the visual field starts to be affected

(45:46):
and the patient starts to have more of a constricted
visual field, the treatment that's available can try to slow
that process down. But unfortunately, we don't yet have anything
that can reverse the optic nerve damage once it's been done.

S1 (46:02):
Or ask about the treatments in a second. But what
about in terms of cause, Richard, are we I mean,
you talked about maybe the genetic components. Anything else? I mean,
you know, is there anything that we can do to
kind of limit our chances of getting it apart from
the regular testing?

S7 (46:16):
So most, most cases of glaucoma, the open angle variety,
it's not fully understood what what the cause is other
than predisposition that you might inherit through through the genes
that you get from your parents and so on. There
are some other forms of glaucoma where another eye condition

(46:37):
can cause damage to the outflow pathways. And then lead
to secondary issues with raised pressure, for example inflammation, eye inflammation,
or uveitis, which is something I'm quite interested in. So yes,
there are secondary forms of glaucoma as well in terms
of what we can do with our lifestyle. It's a

(46:57):
little bit different to things like cardiovascular health. So um,
the rules like um, or the general advice to eat healthy,
a healthy diet and so on and certainly apply, but
it's not as clear cut as it is for for
cardiovascular disease. And really, if someone wants to reduce their

(47:20):
risk of developing glaucoma, the best thing they can do
is is to get themselves screened by the optometrist to
see if there are any early signs of it, or
whether they might be at risk of it.

S1 (47:32):
What about that part of things? The optometrist screen. So
I guess they would be ultra careful. And if they
suspect that something's on, well, you better get to an ophthalmologist.
Is that kind of how it works?

S7 (47:42):
Well, yes. So the optimal the the optometrists are optometry
colleagues are really very good and switched on when it
comes to checking patients for signs of glaucoma. And a
lot of optometrists have equipment that is almost as good
as the some of the stuff that we have in
our eye hospitals and very good certainly for screening. So

(48:03):
optometrists are good at measuring pressure. Um, they're good at
optic nerve assessment. And they'll also check the visual field. Um,
so those those three things are really important in the
screening for glaucoma. So you can get all of that
done just on the high street.

S1 (48:22):
Okay. What about intensive treatment? You sound a very young man, Richard.
So a straight man changed much over the years. And
how much has it improved?

S7 (48:30):
That was very kind of you, Peter. Um, so the treatment.
I only speak.

S1 (48:33):
The truth on this program for.

S7 (48:34):
Glaucoma. In terms of the more mild disease, the treatment
for most people is, is eye drop therapy. And that's
been the case for many years. Although, of course, over
the years the eye drops have become a little bit
more effective and they've also become easier to tolerate. But
you're probably looking at more than 90% of people with

(48:56):
a diagnosis of glaucoma are controlled with eye drops that
help to bring the pressure down. And we've also got
laser therapies for for those early cases as well. Um,
so a particular kind of laser called selective laser trabeculoplasty,
I usually say to patients, it's a little bit like
having the same effect as an eye drop. Um, and

(49:17):
if someone's not tolerating their drops or they're finding it
particularly difficult, then in some cases that can be very
effective as well. And as we get into the more
advanced disease, Then. Then we're talking about surgical options to
try and create a new drainage pathway out of the eye.
And whilst these procedures have become less risky over the years,

(49:40):
there still is, of course, a certain amount of risk
to to performing an eye surgery.

S1 (49:45):
After this risk with any surgery. So I guess that's
kind of what you sign before you go in. And,
you know, I guess the, the, the benefits will far
outweigh the risks.

S7 (49:55):
Yes. Yeah. So we've got also got in just in
the last, uh, 15 years or so, um, stent technology has,
has come through. And these are little devices that can
be inserted into the Schlemm's canal, which is the drain
inside the eye. So the natural drain to try and
enhance the outflow from the eye and reduce the pressure

(50:17):
that way. And the nice thing about these devices is
that they can be combined with cataract surgery. And a
lot of our patients are going to have cataracts as well.
And if they need to have cataract surgery in order
to improve their vision, then there's an opportunity to try
and use one of these devices to maybe get even

(50:38):
better pressure control or reduce the treatment burden.

S1 (50:42):
That they spend, similar to what people might have if
they have heart surgery. Well, obviously much, much, much smaller.
That's right.

S7 (50:48):
The principle the principle is is is similar, but they
are much, much smaller. And instead of stenting the inside
of a blood vessel, what the stent does is it
provides a pathway, a lower resistance pathway from the the
anterior chamber so inside of the eye through the trabecular

(51:08):
meshwork into schlemm's canal where the fluid drains out. So
they're kind of like a bypass in that in that sense. Firstly, I.

S1 (51:15):
Think if you get it in one eye, might you
get it in the other? Is it generally sort of
only one. How does that work.

S7 (51:21):
So it's usually both eyes in the normal form of
glaucoma that we see the primary open angle glaucoma, and
in those cases where the condition might be secondary to
another problem, it depends whether or not both eyes are
affected with that other problem. But in most cases, both

(51:42):
eyes are involved in in the normal sort of glaucoma
that we see, although 1st May be a little bit
ahead of the curve than the other. I was going to.

S1 (51:51):
Ask you about that with the sort of deterioration of
sight is pretty equal, equally spread as well.

S7 (51:56):
Sometimes it is, but very often there might be some
difference in the symmetry.

S1 (52:02):
And you talked about cataracts or maybe the potential to
do cataract surgery at the same time. Are they necessarily
related or is that, you know, just, uh, again, uh,
sort of a matter of chance?

S7 (52:14):
Yeah. That's a that's a very good question. So, um,
the thing with cataracts and glaucoma is they they both
become more common problems as we get older. Um, to
the point where I usually say to my cataract patients,
you know, everyone's going to get a cataract if they
live long enough. Whether or not it becomes visually significant

(52:36):
varies from person to person, but everyone will develop some cataract.
And at the same time that that's happening, the problems
and the severity of glaucoma tends to get worse as well.
So in some cases there may be a link between
the two, but in many cases they kind of develop independently. Um,
so this was one of the the reasons why the

(52:57):
stent technology has been so helpful. Because if you're essentially
doing an operation on the eye anyway to remove the cataract,
you've then got the opportunity to maybe help the glaucoma
as well. At the same time.

S1 (53:12):
And in terms of males or females being more prone
or indeed different cultures, is that kind of play any role?

S7 (53:18):
Yeah. So there's a there's a bit of a role
there in terms of cultural groups, and will probably begin
to understand that a little bit more when more is
known about the genetics thing, glaucoma. So that's the answer
to that question, is probably going to become much clearer
over the next few years. But we do see variation

(53:39):
around the world, and we also see variation in terms
of the types of glaucoma that eyes might experience. So
there's there's a variety of glaucoma called narrow angle glaucoma,
which is more prevalent in Asian populations. Whereas the open
angle variety is is more prevalent in other populations. There.

S1 (53:59):
We've got the National Glaucoma Week coming up, but a
message that's always relevant in terms of the early testing
and particularly if you have a family history, what about
in terms of the amount of research and the amount
of funding for research? I guess there's there's never enough.

S7 (54:11):
Well, yes, of course there's there's always, always scope for
to to do more I think. So world Glaucoma Week
which is coming up next week, is essentially about two things,
I suppose. First is awareness, so that you don't forget
to to get your eyes checked, particularly if you've got
risk factors in the family. So that's one of the

(54:34):
big messages. Um, but also to draw attention to the,
to the research. And there's very good research actually being
done here in Australia into, into glaucoma. Um, there was
a big study which has now been followed up with a,
with a trial to look at the role of vitamin B3,

(54:56):
maybe a vitamin B3. Supplementation in glaucoma may be of
benefit for some patients, and that's based on some work
that's come out of Melbourne, which has been really interesting.
So we'll wait and see what the clinical trials show
in that regard.

S1 (55:13):
I guess it's one of those things which as you say,
but consult your healthcare professional. Don't just rush off to
the health shop? Because that's probably not going to be
the way to do it.

S7 (55:21):
Well, that's right. So we don't yet know whether this
is is going to be useful or not. There's a
signal that it might be, but we also don't know
what the dosing should really be. And there are of
course other risks with with taking supplements, particularly high dose supplements.
So it's going to be something that, again will will

(55:41):
become clearer over the next couple of years as that
as the result of that clinical trial start to come through.

S1 (55:47):
Yes, we heard about the B6 toxicity studies or incidences
a few weeks ago and we spoke about that. So
as you say, you've got to be pretty careful and
can't generalize. Richard, it's been fascinating to talk to you.
Thank you so, so much. I'm sure we've all learned
much from it, and hopefully we can speak to you
again in the future.

S7 (56:04):
Thanks very much, Peter. I've really enjoyed talking.

S1 (56:06):
Doctor Richard Symes is a specialist in the area of glaucoma.
I think we can understand that. And I'll just end there. Well,
World Glaucoma Week coming up very soon. But as I
often say, it's the message we're all worth regarding all
year round. I want to describe show of the week.
It's coming up this Tuesday afternoon 150. Something a little different.

(56:27):
One arm chef. Now this features Giles Dooley, who visits Beirut,
a city he knows well and sees how it's recovering
after the terrible port explosions of 2020. Over a few meals,
Giles discovers that there is hope for the future. It's

(56:47):
right at em. It is on this Sunday afternoon. 150
SBS Viceland. One arm chef some birthdays before we go.
Mary and Dom are having a birthday. We caught up
with Maryanne virtually this time last year when we spoke
about International Women's Day. So Maryanne, a very big happy
birthday to you. Amanda here having a birthday, spoke to

(57:10):
a man a couple of weeks ago about her empowering
Women course that she's running. So happy birthday to you,
Amanda and Vicky Jolly having a birthday. Good on you, Vicky.
What a wonderful, delightful young lady Vicky is. So, Vicky,
a very big happy birthday to you. Certainly deals with
a lot of challenges. Uh, this is actually Stephen Jolly's wife.

(57:31):
So hence that little, rather quirky reference, if you might
call it that. That is it for the programme. Sam, Richard,
thanks so much for yours. Pam Green, thanks so much
for yours too. On behalf of Philip Napier. And a
big hello to Wendy McDougall listening in. This is Peter
Greco saying, be kind to yourselves, be thoughtful and look

(57:52):
out for others. If you like the programme, please tell
a friend or a family member. Always room for one
more listener on Vision Australia Radio. This is focal point.