16 Jul 2025

On FOCAL POINT:

• Dr David Sykes, Director of the Centre for Dementia Learning at
  Dementia Australia, spoke about  a new app-based tool available to help support people working in health; disability and aged care to provide quality care for people living with dementia "Tell TiNA" and other supports for individuals caring for a loved one with dementia,
• Rachel, from Beyond Blindness Marketing, invited applications for the Trevor Frost Scholarship for young people studying arts/music. Also a few tasty temptations; tandem cycling opportunities and more. 
• Stephen Hallinan, from the Deafblind Project Hunter, spoke about their peer support program, activities and other benefits members gain from their excellent group,
• Stephen Belbin has received a Certificate of Appreciation from Blind Citizens Australia for  many years of advocacy for first Australians and other people with disabilities, as well as his  role in education. Stephen was recognised at BCA's  50th anniversary Convention.

Resources:

Dementia Australia: http://www.dementia.org.au

Beyond Blindness: http://www.beyondblindness.org.au

Dafblind Project Hunter: https://www.cdah.org.au/hunter-deafblind-project/ 

Blind Citizens Australia: http://www.bca.org.au

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:23):
Good evening and welcome to Focal Point here on Business Radio.
Radio 1190 7 a.m. Adelaide, online at via radio Dot
via radio digital Radio in Darwin through the Community Radio app.
Look for Vision Australia. Radio Adelaide also through the Reading
Radio Network. Peter Greco saying thank you so much for
joining us on behalf of Philip Napier. This program coming

(00:47):
to you from Garner Land come to you very shortly.
We'll speak to Doctor David Sykes from Dementia Australia. Talk
about Tell Tina, an app that's been launched to help
people working in the area of dementia, but more importantly,
other information that's available for you or someone you love
who may have dementia or supporting someone with dementia. Really

(01:08):
important topic. Look forward to catching up with David really soon.
write you from beyond will join us. If you're feeling
a bit peckish. Your mouth will water. Don't want to
give too much away, but Rachel's coming up very soon.
We'll catch up with Steven. Helen from the Hunter Valley
area of New South Wales, a deafblind support group. What

(01:28):
do they do? What are they about? What benefits do
they get? We'll find out very shortly from Steven. And
then another Steven. Steven Belbin will join us. He was
recognized recently with a certificate of appreciation for his wonderful
work with First Australians and more. Steven will join us.
If you're listening through 1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide and

(01:49):
had a clock for your listening pleasure. Lizzie and Sam
are here with Studio One. Just before we hear what's
on studio one, some information through from the Australian Electoral
Commission regarding people who are blind or have low vision.
And how many voted at this year's election. This year
it was 2384. Now in comparison, three years ago it

(02:12):
was 2974, and in the referendum in 2023 it was 2229.
So down just a little bit from the election three
years ago, about 400 or so, which thinking out loud
is a little bit disappointing, but I guess they're the numbers.

(02:34):
Hopefully we'll get someone on to chat about it in
the next week or two to kind of drill down
into the information that came from that and indeed what
is ahead. That was me thinking out loud. It's disappointing
he is losing and speaking out loudly to tell you
what's on studio one tonight.

S2 (02:53):
What are you going to do when you grow up?

S3 (02:54):
I didn't know you had grown up.

S2 (02:56):
Yeah, the jury's still out there.

S3 (02:57):
Do the expectations of friends, family, or our support network
affect what we do with our lives?

S2 (03:03):
Vision Australia's own Belinda Wilson talks about learned helplessness.

S3 (03:06):
Join us at 8:00 for studio one.

S1 (03:10):
I'm really pleased to welcome to the program from Dementia Australia,
the director for the centre for Dementia Learning, Doctor David Sykes. David, welcome.
Thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate you speaking
to us.

S4 (03:21):
Thanks very much, Peter, and hello to your listeners.

S1 (03:23):
Yeah. You've just launched something that's got a very a
catchy name. Uh, tell us a bit about Tell Tina.

S4 (03:29):
Yeah, we're really excited to launch. Uh, Tell Tina. Tell
Tina is, uh, a fantastic resource that is really aimed
at workers, uh, supporting someone living with dementia to really
help them to assess what their current strengths are in
relation to their skills and knowledge and also areas of development.

(03:52):
We think this is really important because a lot of, uh,
particularly aged care providers, there's a real need to build
the capability and capacity of their staff in how they
best support someone living with dementia. And so this tool,
which is tied into the recently launched National Dementia Education

(04:12):
and Training Standards framework, I know it's a long title,
but that actually sets national standards for dementia education. So
we've mapped this tool against that. And so it will
provide a really valuable resource, not just for individuals who
want to know how they can improve their knowledge and
skill to better support people living with dementia, but also

(04:36):
to aged care providers, because there is a back end
which holds all the data from the app and gives
them a really great picture of what the strengths of
this staff are and where they need to target further
education to really build their capability.

S1 (04:51):
It's kind of a live document, if I can put
it that way. It's kind of, uh, this is not
it's all about that. There's more to come or that
there's more to can be developed from this.

S4 (05:01):
Well, this ties into the fact that we've got a
range of optometry education programs online, face to face, as
well as some based on the our scanning app that
are really designed to improve the workforce capability around dementia practice.
And we're particularly known both locally and internationally for our

(05:21):
use of technology to improve learning outcomes. So we've been
delivering programmes with virtual reality for over a decade now.
That really helped to put people in the shoes of
someone living with dementia and give them real insights onto
what it might be like and how that informs their
their practice and the best way to support someone living

(05:43):
with dementia.

S1 (05:44):
The kind of onset of dementia has been described as
a tsunami. I'm not sure if that's the emotive talk,
but I guess suffice to say that it's an area
in terms of people's expertise and people's employment opportunities that
is going to just continue to grow.

S4 (05:57):
Yes. Look, sadly, Peter, there's no, uh, certainly no cure
in sight. And the numbers, as you quite rightly point out,
just continue to rise. With well over 400,000 Australians currently
living with dementia, and that's expected to certainly well go
well over the million by 2050. So, you know, this

(06:18):
really is a crisis for our community. But communities across
the globe as we continue to see that be the case.
And then, of course, we've got younger onset dementia, which
affects people under the age of 65, and there's about
25,000 Australians in that situation. And then even more tragic. Again,
you've got, um, childhood dementia, so much smaller numbers, but

(06:42):
still equally tragic. The impact that has on on very
young lives.

S1 (06:46):
This information, this can be applicable to those working in
the area, regardless of what age the person that has
dementia has.

S4 (06:53):
Absolutely. So if you're working in aged care and disability care,
in healthcare, at whatever age and stage that person living
with dementia is at. This resource provides an invaluable insight
into where your strengths lie and where your opportunities to
improve on a personal front. And that helps your employer

(07:15):
if they're able to access the the back end and
actually get a report out of what their staff's capability is,
also helps guide education providers like ourselves in making sure
we map out programs to the new standards so that
that can be really targeted, because we know with the
staff shortages in whether it's health aged or disability, um,

(07:38):
that it's really difficult to release staff to attend training,
whether that's face to face. So you want to make
sure that training is very well targeted, to make sure
it's it's getting the appropriate level of knowledge and skill
to those workers that they require.

S1 (07:54):
It's a bit of a catch 22 situation because, you know,
it's difficult to release staff because obviously, you know, it's
critical that they're at work. But by the same token,
they're probably pretty thirsty to get more information and be
better at what they do as well. So you kind
of want to have the best of both worlds if
you can.

S4 (08:09):
Yes, absolutely. And and hopefully they are thirsty for it. Um,
certainly whenever they've done surveys of particularly aged care workforce, um,
the two areas that, uh, staff normally ask for more
training in is dementia and palliative care. So they're the
two kind of standout areas.

S1 (08:28):
What about in terms of, um, the sort of research
or the work that's gone into it, as you said,
you're recognised internationally. So in terms of, I guess, the
the sort of IP, if you like, that's gone into this.
Are you comfortable with it and, and, you know, pleased
with the way that you've kind of gathered the information.

S4 (08:45):
Yeah. We're very pleased with how it's, uh, how it's
come up. We've learned a lot over the years with
these kind of training needs, analysis type tools. Um, some
of our early ones were very comprehensive, but probably too
comprehensive for anyone to really spend the time completing. So
we've we've learnt a lot about making this much more targeted,

(09:05):
short and sharp. The back end of it is very
much based on validated tools. Um, so we, we can
be comfortable and confident that the data that's coming out
of it for to inform providers workforce planning is accurate.
We also having having it on our ask any app

(09:26):
platform as a platform. We've uh had going for a
number of years now that we've developed up that app
with home care providers to really, um, give them education, uh,
in the palm of their hand. That is very much
driven by the workers. So it's not intended to give
them what is dementia or signs and symptoms. It's really

(09:49):
intended to actually get them. What specifically do they need
some help with right now. They're about to go and
assist Mrs. Smith. Have a shower at home. What are
some of the things they might need to think about
with that? So it is very much a learner driven
resource and complements a suite of programs that we have

(10:09):
in other contexts. So for our face to face we've
got a probably our award multi award winning Eddy program
which uses the virtual reality. And that's uh, puts you
in the shoes of Eddy, who's someone living with dementia
and getting up in the middle of the night to
try and find the toilet. Very common experience that many
carers tell us about, and the level of discomfort and

(10:31):
distress he experiences in a built environment that's unfriendly to him.
And then you get the experience of where there's been
some environmental changes and you go through that scenario again
and have the discussion in the workshop around what does
that mean? And we find that that actually gives people
real empathy for, someone living with dementia because they experience

(10:55):
the frustration they experienced the annoyance, the irritation that comes
from some of the difficulties that living with dementia confronts
people with. The other one that, uh, online is um, uh,
talk with Ted, and that's an avatar that we program
using artificial intelligence. And so it really helps people to

(11:18):
learn how to communicate effectively with someone living with dementia.
And you're actually there to help Ted have a share.
But if the first thing you do is, um, try
and get him to have a shower, I could tell
you it's going to end badly. Uh, because you really
need to engage with Ted. Uh, introduce yourself, understand who
he is as a person and what's important to him.

(11:40):
Before you start to look at how you best support
him to have a shower. So that's another really great
one that, uh, is available online for people to do
Who that can teach them a lot about some really
solid ways of connecting and engaging with someone living with dementia.

S1 (11:57):
And in terms of the timeliness of this, if you like,
I think there were some changes that were suggested that
might have happened in July. I think that's been pushed
back to the 1st of November. So, uh, again, this
is very, very timely from from that point of view.

S4 (12:10):
Look, absolutely, we're, we're we're thrilled that in the strengthened
aged care standards that, as you say, have been certainly
the implementation of the new legislation has been pushed back
to November now. But it does mean for the first time,
we're seeing in the standards the actual reference to dementia,
and there is going to be greater expectations on certainly
aged care providers to demonstrate what they're doing to ensure

(12:34):
that their staff are appropriately trained to deliver the best
possible care to someone living with dementia. And so this
tool arrives in a timely fashion on top of the
recently released National dementia Education and Training Standards framework to
really help them do the necessary workforce planning, as well

(12:55):
as being able to demonstrate to the Aged Care Quality
and Safety Commission what efforts they're they're undertaking to ensure
that their staff are appropriately trained.

S1 (13:04):
That's very good, David, in terms of people that might
be caring for someone with dementia at home. Is there
anything in this for them, if you like. I'm thinking
in terms of, um, you know, it might be a
spouse or even a child that might be caring for,
you know, a relative with dementia at home.

S4 (13:21):
Well, they can certainly, um, utilise the app. Obviously it's
not designed. It is designed for the paid workforce, but
they can certainly undertake it. But also they can certainly
utilise the Ask Any app which is free to download.
And that can give them some really practical resources for
how they can best support their loved one. Um, the
vast majority of people living with dementia in this country

(13:45):
are supported by over 1.7 million carers. The majority of
those are in fact families and carers and unpaid carers.
So we know that's probably the bigger workforce in lots
of ways, albeit not a workforce. So Ask Annie is
a really valuable resource that anyone can access and can

(14:06):
give them some incredibly valuable tips, strategies, education information. Um,
it's no substitute for training, but it's certainly is a
very accessible resource when we know families and carers are
often very time poor, juggling work and family and caring
and other commitments, as well as supporting a large one

(14:27):
living with dementia.

S1 (14:28):
And we've had no end of discussions with Carers and
Carers Australia regarding the incredible work that, uh, a lot
of their members do. And, you know, I guess in
a sense that, well, I'm sure to those that are involved,
it doesn't go unnoticed. But maybe to us they're a
little bit removed. It might. David. what, without getting into trouble?
What about in terms of government support? Just in general

(14:48):
terms or in particular with this resource? How has that
been for you?

S4 (14:52):
There hasn't been specific government support for this particular in
terms of funding, government support in terms of the commission,
the Commission, we've certainly have been very interested in the
development of Turdetania as a resource that they can potentially
seek information from aged care providers that might have used
this resource and certainly direct providers, to the use of

(15:17):
the resource if they seem to be not doing a
level of planning for building the dementia capability of their workforce.
So it certainly had that support. We do deliver other
programs to the aged care workforce that are funded by government.
So we have Dementia Essentials, which is a unit of
competency out of the cert three, and individual support that

(15:40):
we deliver to the aged care workforce. There's some leadership
programs that we're just preparing to deliver now that we're
in another financial year. There's de-escalation, which is or DSC,
which is another program we've developed using virtual reality that
really helps the aged care workforce deal with situations where

(16:02):
someone is, you know, has behavior has changed and how
that best respond to that situation in a way that
supports that person living with dementia. Recognizing the behavior can
be a key way in which someone living with dementia communicates.
Very often an unmet need. Um, and that's important to

(16:22):
respond to those situations in a positive and supportive way.

S1 (16:26):
So just before you leave a little bit of a
tongue in cheek question, who comes up with all these names? Annie. Tina. Ted? Eddie,
you got a great, uh, someone's got a great match.
We've got a great imagination there.

S5 (16:37):
We've got a great family, haven't we?

S4 (16:39):
So. Yes. Look, look, Tina, what's embedded in Tina, of course,
is the, um, TNA or training needs analysis. So I
think that you'll see the way it's written. It's a
capital T, capital N capital A with a small I.
So there's a bit of a bit of a trick
to the, um, tell Tina uh, name there. The other ones, uh, look,

(17:02):
you know, various processes we go through to identify what's
the best way to promote those with ask any very
much a name that resonated with the home care workforce
and ask Any is a more experienced, uh, home care
staff member that they can go to for advice. So
that's kind of the thinking behind that. Of course, we've

(17:24):
now rolled that app out to, uh, Resi care and uh,
other settings as well. But certainly, again, for us, it's
around personalizing the experience of dementia. And the more you
can make that relatable for people. The more people can
understand and engage with what we're trying to explain to

(17:46):
people and give them real insights into what it's like
to live with dementia so that they can improve their
practice around how to best support those living with dementia.

S1 (17:57):
Yeah, we'll put those details up there to show notes.
Thank you so much for speaking to us. Hopefully we
can speak to you again in the future and keep
up the great work.

S5 (18:03):
Thanks very much, Peter, and thank you to your listeners.

S1 (18:05):
That's Doctor David Sykes there. He's the director for the
center for Dementia Learning and all those details up with
our show notes. And as always, if you've missed any
of them, give us a call at the radio station.

S6 (18:15):
1300 847 461 step up.

S1 (18:24):
And find out what's happening at Beyond Blindness. In short,
a lot. Let's chat about it with Rachel from the
marketing area. Rachel. Welcome again.

S7 (18:33):
Hi. Thank you.

S1 (18:34):
Now, uh, a lovely gesture that, uh, beyond blindness, you've
got an award named in the honor of someone that
many of our listeners would know very well.

S7 (18:42):
This is about the Trevor Frost Award. So, um, the
applications are now open for the 2025 Beyond Blindness Trevor
Frost Award and just a bit of background about it.
The this is an annual award for essay blind and
vision impaired students. Um which Beyond Blindness created in 2017,

(19:04):
is named after a former member of ours called Trevor Frost.
And Trevor used his own personal experience with vision, loss
and his passion to help others. He assisted many newly
vision impaired South Australians with support and advice through his
wonderful work at the Low Vision Centre, and this is
recognised in the naming of this award after him.

S1 (19:27):
Fantastic. Yeah, I, I travel the program many times over
the years and great advocate and anyone that went into
the low vision center would have remembered Trevor there at
two £0.30 Street for a long, long time. So he
was a wonderful advocate. Just a little bit about the award.
Who's it open to when? What sort of area? Um,
the people have to have interest in to, uh, apply

(19:48):
for the scholarship.

S7 (19:49):
Well, it's open for primary and high school students. So
this is to further their artistic development in the field
of music or performing arts. Um, so there's a $2,000 grant,
prize money to be won, and previous award applicants are
encouraged to apply. As long as you weren't the winner,

(20:10):
you can feel free to apply again. So some examples
of what the grant money could be used for is
music or acting or other art lessons like, um, one
on one tutoring, um, um, recording equipment, musical instruments and maintenance.
Anything that's going to sort of help students in music

(20:33):
or performing arts to help them grow and learn and, um, yeah,
continue on that path.

S1 (20:39):
Fantastic. So $2,000, that's not an insignificant amount of money.
That's very generous in terms of, uh, you know, the
amount of money that someone could do something very worthwhile with.

S7 (20:49):
Yeah. Can definitely. Um. Yeah. Go a bit far. And, um,
the previous winners have been really grateful to receive it
because then they're, you know, been able to put that
towards music lessons, which, you know, can be expensive, especially
if they're every week. So yeah, music's the probably the
most common category, but it's open. We really do encourage

(21:10):
any student who's studying the performing arts, such as theatre
students or other art programs or, yeah, anything like that.
So yeah, we but yeah, really, we encourage anyone, you know,
studying performing arts or music to apply, um, if you
have any questions about the criteria. Just, um, contact the office, and, um. Yeah,

(21:34):
I'll see if I can, um, clear things up. So, yeah,
for further information and to apply via the online form,
you can visit the online form. Or you can always
email me at marketing at the online and I can

(21:55):
email you, you know, the link and everything you need
to know. So, um, applications are open for a few months.
They are open until the 30th of September. So you've got,
you know, a bit of a while to sort of
gather everything and, um, you know. Yeah, right. A really
good application.

S1 (22:16):
All right. I guess by the time the applicants are
in and the judges meet and probably a nice Christmas
present for someone, I reckon, when that announcement is made.

S7 (22:24):
Yeah, it usually ends up that way in.

S1 (22:26):
Uh.

S7 (22:27):
You know, sort of, um, of announcing the winner towards
the end of the year. So yeah, it's really nice
to to, you know, give that sort of as a,
as a present to the winner and um, yeah, sort
of as an end of year sort of gift.

S1 (22:38):
Yeah. And nothing about that. Right. I mean, of the
younger people this is aimed at. But it would be
a cool thing to have on your CV. You know,
the fact that you are a recipient of the Trevor
Frost Award or the Trevor Frost Scholarship, you know, down
the track, you could put that on your CV, which
would look pretty good as well.

S7 (22:54):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that would look. Yeah, it'd be really good.

S1 (22:56):
All right. Now you've got something for people if they
haven't had dinner yet or if they've had dinner, but
maybe looking for a bit of a late night snack.
You might make people a bit hungry. You've got a
day coming up. Which sounds very appealing.

S7 (23:09):
Yeah, we've got, um, the exclusive, uh, Campbelltown Food Trail.
So this is for the On Blindness members. It's being
held in the north east, so you can join us
for a tasty local food adventure, uh, featuring two iconic
Campbelltown foodie spots. Um, I know we have a lot
of members that, you know, love their food, and I

(23:29):
think we can all be foodie foodies. It's, um, you know, sometimes.
So first stop is, uh, continental Tyrawley at McGill. So, um,
you can enjoy a guided tasting of their famous tyrawley, which, um,
had a bit of a research, and apparently it's a
bit like a pretzel sort of thing. Maybe you would know.

S1 (23:50):
Uh, right. You'll get right in my wheelhouse. Yes. Yeah.
Takes you back a while, but they're absolutely delicious. Great
things to snack on and sort of stuff that, uh. Well,
speaking for myself, it's very hard to stop at one
or 2 or 3.

S7 (24:01):
Oh, okay. Very moreish. Okay. Yeah. So you might want
to buy one of those tyrawley, which is what they're
most famous for. Or, um, other Italian biscuits, like almond
bread or biscotti or. Yeah, things like that. So. Yeah.
Sounds very delicious. So that's the first stop. And then
the second stop is at um Mercato, which is a supermarket.

(24:23):
So they've got all Italian food and ingredients cheeses, olives, breads, pasta,
everything you could need, you know, to take home to
your kitchen and, you know, cook up a storm with. Um,
so yeah, you can hear the story behind this beloved business. Plus,
there's a live cooking demonstration, too.

S1 (24:43):
Okay.

S7 (24:44):
Yeah. So, uh, what's included in this tour is small tastings,
a cooking demo, and a small goodie bag to take home.

S1 (24:52):
Fantastic. Oh, well, you get, uh, a bit of a
souvenir that you can take home. Uh, probably the sort
of person who would eat it on the way home,
because I'm not very disciplined, but, uh, that sounds great. What?
What day is that?

S7 (25:03):
That's on Thursday, the 24th of July. So that's next week.
So make sure to RSVP as soon as possible to
secure your spot. It's on at 1030 to 1230. So
meet at the Campbelltown uh, office slash social center first. Um,
there is a small cost involved of $20, but I've

(25:25):
been told that the market price for this sort of
tour is actually $75 value per person. So yeah, it's um, yeah,
pretty good, pretty good value, but yeah. 20 bucks.

S1 (25:36):
Yeah. Well, I'm. I promise you, you won't be disappointed
if you go along. Money back guarantee.

S7 (25:42):
Yeah. Feel free to come along, Peter.

S1 (25:44):
I'll do my very best. Might never go home. Yeah.
Now you've got a day for, uh, tandem bike cycles
as well, have you?

S7 (25:52):
We're still continuing with the tandem bikes. There are always, uh,
pretty popular this time. We're sort of changing the location
and will be at Felixstowe, um, which is just around
the corner from, um, the Campbeltown office, so not too far. Um,
so members zip off with an experienced, uh, volunteer pilot

(26:12):
rider to enjoy some exercise in the open air. And, um,
I'm told that at Felixstowe you can enjoy the sensory
experience of the refreshing scent of the eucalyptus trees that
are nearby.

S1 (26:25):
Oh, lovely.

S7 (26:26):
Mhm.

S1 (26:26):
All right. What, what goes that.

S7 (26:28):
That's going to be on Thursday the 31st of July.
That's at 10 a.m. to 12 p.m.. You can meet
at Felixstowe Reserve near the public toilet area. And then afterwards,
um after working up an appetite, there will be lunch
at Brunelli at Glynde from 1230.

S1 (26:47):
No, I know you're going to be able to make
to the end of the programme, right? You make me hungry.
I said that you made a really good point there
about the fact that there are experienced pilots there for
people who like tandem bike riding, because often, you know,
it's all well and good that you want to do it,
but you need a pilot to kind of be on
the front of the bike. So you're going to be
providing those.

S7 (27:06):
Yeah, we will. And, um, we've been running this program
for a while now, so, um, yeah, the volunteers are
all very experienced, all know what they're doing. So, yeah,
you'll be in good hands.

S1 (27:16):
All you gotta do is just pedal. Yeah. Yeah. Now what?
You're doing a great thing. I think beyond blindness, you're
getting together with another organization to, um, kind of, uh,
you know, share some information.

S7 (27:27):
We have a collaboration coming up with, um, Guide Dogs
sa nt for an info session at Campbelltown. So, um,
they've kindly agreed to conduct to conduct an info session
for Beyond Blindness. This talk will cover services offered by
guide dogs, so the services that they offer are orientation

(27:48):
and mobility training, occupational therapy, leisure and lifestyle services, and
advocacy and community linkages. So they'll just be going over
those sort of things that they offer. And then you
can decide whether you want to, you know, sign up
to them. So this session is ideal for members, um,
and their carers seeking to understand the comprehensive support available

(28:12):
for those with low vision or blindness. That's on Tuesday
the 12th of August. So, um, in a few weeks. Yeah. So, yeah,
that's at 1030 till 1230 at the Campbelltown Social Centre.
And you can call 83676088 to sign up.

S1 (28:29):
Alright. So if you're familiar with getting to the Campbelltown
Social Centre then the guide dogs are coming there so
you don't have to go anywhere other than where you
normally go at the Campbelltown area. So that's a good
thing as well.

S7 (28:40):
Very convenient.

S1 (28:41):
Yeah. Very convenient. Yeah. Great way to put it now. Right.
You apart from hearing your lovely voice on the radio
every month, you also do a little bit of work
behind the scenes putting the newsletter out. So what's happening there?

S7 (28:52):
Yeah, a lot of work. Um, yeah. Putting everything.

S5 (28:55):
Together.

S1 (28:55):
Sarcastic.

S7 (28:56):
Yeah. So, um, yeah. Members should have already received the
winter newsletter by now. Um, the newsletter. So you should
have received it in your email inbox, um, or in
your letterbox if you choose to get it that way
by post. Um, or it should be arriving very soon. Um, yeah.
So check that out too, for, um, all the other

(29:19):
activities in all of the regions from Beyond Blindness. We've
just got so much to offer all over Adelaide, all
over the regional locations. And, um, yeah, it's also got
a bit of news about what else has been happening.
Member spotlight to a review of the Oaks apartment and, um,
that might get you interested in that. So yeah, a
lot of good things in the newsletter and a lot

(29:40):
of good things in the activity calendar, too, for the
for the new term. So yeah, please check it out if, um, yeah,
it's come your way and, um, yeah, let us know
what you think.

S1 (29:50):
You put a lot of work into that. Seriously. And
you deserve people to read it and get a lot
out of it. If perhaps they're hearing about this for
the first time, how easy is it to sign up?
It's free, isn't it, to sign up as long as
you're beyond blindness. Member.

S7 (30:02):
Yeah, you can sign up if you're a Beyond Blindness member. But, um,
if you are even thinking about becoming a member, but
you're just not sure yet, or you just want to
know the sort of things that we offer. You're still
welcome to sign up for our newsletter. I'm happy to
put you on the mailing list. And yeah, send it
by email by post. We have lots of different accessible formats.

(30:25):
So yeah, feel free to sign up. You know regardless.

S1 (30:29):
All right. So if you get it by email then
you get it nice and promptly because as soon as
it's ready it goes out. And you got access to
that information in, in good time about the things that
you spoke about this evening. Rachel, how can we find
out more? How can we get in touch with you?

S7 (30:42):
Um, you can call the main office on 83676088. And
our main office is the Campbeltown office. So. Yeah, just
call us and, um. Yeah, we'll put you through to
the right person. So, yeah, feel free to get in touch.

S1 (30:57):
And you can also check out the website.

S7 (30:59):
Yes. And we're also pretty active on Facebook as well
if Facebook's your thing. So um, yeah you can look
for us on there. And it's just simply beyond blindness.

S1 (31:12):
Terrific, Rachel. Great to catch up. Another very comprehensive report.
Keep up the great work and we'll catch up again
next month.

S7 (31:18):
Thank you. Yeah. Stay. See you then.

S1 (31:19):
So, Rachel, there from the marketing area Beyond Blindness does
a lot of great work. And check out the newsletter,
some really great information. And you can sample some of
Rachel's work in print as well as on the radio.
Or if you're a regular listener program, you may recall
in the past we've spoken to Stephen Hallinan about issues
dealing with deafblind. Let's chat about a group that Stephen

(31:42):
is with in the Hunter Valley. Stephen, great to catch
up with you again and thank you for your time.

S8 (31:48):
Oh, pleased to be of assistance.

S1 (31:50):
How did you get involved with the group in the Hunter?
How did you get involved with it? And then we'll
talk about why.

S8 (31:55):
Well, I got involved in the group in Hunter about. Well,
be ten years ago, 2015. In fact, we met, um,
in a small room in Australia, um, Newcastle for the
first time. And that was the initiative of a, uh,
young guy who, um, his principal means of communication is Auslan.

(32:18):
And he'd actually moved to Newcastle from Wollongong, in fact.
And he knew there had to be a deafblind community
in Newcastle, but he couldn't find it. So he decided
to put an NDIS program that he began to find
his community, which that did exist, of course. And that's
why we met in that room.

S1 (32:37):
And why did you join?

S8 (32:38):
Well, I've had a bit of a history with the
deafblind community in Thor around about, uh, 1997. Uh, I
was originally involved with another group that used to meet
in Sydney and that, uh, I used to go down
there quite regularly, but, um, it was quite a long
trip every going, uh, down in the morning and coming

(33:00):
back in the evening. It's 2 to 3 hour train
trip each way. So I sort of dropped off a
bit and got into everything, but I still always had
that interest in the deaf community.

S1 (33:11):
What sort of things does the group at the Hunter do?

S8 (33:14):
They do all sorts of things. But, um, I guess
the principal thing we do is we do meet, uh,
every two weeks in what we call a deafblind hub.
The idea of that is to bring members of the
deaf community together. And we've also had people coming up
from Sydney as well when they heard about it. That's

(33:35):
what's happening these days. Um, and, uh, that's just an
opportunity for peers to get together in, uh, socialise. But
it's also because we need support. Some, uh, some of
us anyway, of interpreters in, uh, support workers who have
skills in dealing in Auslan, etc. the community, in a sense,

(33:55):
is the deafblind community, plus the people who support us.
And um, the good thing about it is that that
particular exercise, which started around about um 2019. 2020 also
attracted a number of online students. So a side effect
that that has been that we've increased the number of
interpreters who can interpret for people who are deaf, blind,

(34:19):
using a tactile form of, of land. So that's what
we tend to do at the moment. Uh, but yeah,
when we started, we did a lot of activities, um,
going to different places and, um, you know, engaging in
the broader community as well. And, uh, you know, things like, oh,
we went to a fire station in East Maitland and um, um,

(34:41):
even went to Maitland Gaol on one occasion and uh,
got to, you know, walk through the gaol and look
at all the jail cells. And, uh, it was a
jail that I gather was that was operating for 150 years.
So all sorts of things.

S1 (34:56):
Yeah. What about the, um, the tactile Auslan? Do you
want to explain a bit more about that?

S8 (35:02):
Tactile Hector Oswyn is a number of ways it's done
for people who are deaf, blind. Uh, you know, I
guess you can say we divide it into two broad groups.
Those are the two, uh, culturally deaf, meaning that they're, um,
they're born deaf. Totally deaf. Uh, and, uh, deaf. Principal

(35:22):
means of communication is Auslan. And what happened with them
is that their vision deteriorates. It becomes that they can't
actually see what their compatriots are signing to them. And
so they have to find a couple of different approaches
to communicating. If they feel narrowed down to a narrow field,

(35:44):
they might be able to use what we call visual frame,
which basically means instead of having, you know, expensive gestures,
you crunch it down into a small area where you
can be seen. But as the vision deteriorates, they actually
have a technique by which they put their hand above
the person who's signing hands, and just by the movement

(36:07):
of those hands, they can actually tell what they are saying.
So it's quite, um, uh, it's quite interesting and I've
been trying to learn it myself, but I'd rather late. But, um, uh,
I know a few signs, but not too good at
the tactile was in at this point in time. And

(36:28):
of course, those of us who have oral communications have
used him to use hearing aids and things like that.
There are quite a number of us have taken an
interest in learning Auslan, and we actually do have some
of our, um, Auslan communicating members teaching us, uh, different signs.
So it's quite interesting that one of the things, I guess,

(36:49):
in terms of having a peer group and we can
teach things to each other that we would not otherwise know.
So it's quite interesting.

S1 (36:59):
It's great that you've got those communication guides, Stephen, because
people who are deaf blind often can feel quite isolated.

S8 (37:08):
Oh yes, you're right there at the really big problem
in the deaf blind community. And people don't know how
to communicate with people who are deaf. Blind. Be that. Well,
particularly if they don't have an oral form of communication. But, um,
even for those who do have oral communication, they often

(37:29):
get excluded anyway because they can't quite understand what people
are saying. And, uh, yes. So there is a great
deal of isolating deafblind community, and that's about even talking
about those who, um, who wind up in group homes.
And that's an even more difficult problem to resolve. And, uh,

(37:50):
so we're doing our bit by those of us who
are out in the community getting together so that we
don't get isolated. And by doing that, we build up
the courage to go out into the wider community and, um,
you know, have experiences and whatnot. And that's a way,
I guess, of introducing the wider community to the deafblind

(38:11):
community and, uh, helping them to understand, uh, what we
need and what we have to offer. And, um, I
guess that's what it's about. And what a way if
you've not seen out and about nobody really.

S1 (38:27):
Yeah.

S8 (38:27):
Recognize it is there.

S1 (38:29):
Yeah. Well, you know, it's kind of out of sight,
out of mind, if I can put it so bluntly.

S8 (38:35):
Oh, yes. Very definitely the case. And uh, that, of course,
is I talk I did mention people who are in
group and that very much is often what happens to them.
And it is unfortunate that often the staff in those
group homes don't have the skills to work with people
who are deafblind, Because it's such a low incidence disability,

(38:57):
particularly when you have to use sign language. The skills
are quite thinly spread, and it's really something like what
we're doing with the Deafblind Hub, where we attract deafblind
peers and also people who want to develop their skills
in communication. That's where you start to get a cohort

(39:18):
of people who can actually give the support to people
in the abroad, people who are deaf, blind in the
broader community needs. So we're really proud of what we've
managed to do.

S1 (39:28):
Oh, you should be. It's kind of a double pronged approach, Stephen.
You've got those that are deafblind kind of are raising awareness,
but also those that are kind of learning about it.
So when they're amongst their friends and peers and social networks,
they can talk about some of the challenges or, you know,
the life of a person who's deafblind as well through that,

(39:50):
through that experience.

S8 (39:52):
Yeah. What really works very well is because we have
the deafblind community coming together and our support coming together
as well. We as members of deafblind community can mentor
each other. We also have the opportunity to mentor supports
and interpreters and mentor each other. So it's a it's
a really great way how a movement builds.

S1 (40:15):
Do you think in a sense it's kind of, um, helped,
if I can put it that way, by virtue of
the fact that you're not in the heart of a
big city, that you're kind of in a a bit
more of a, um, you know, sort of country setting
or less metropolitan setting. Do you think that kind of
helps a bit?

S8 (40:31):
I don't know, I think what what happens is that
you need to have a group of people who commit to, uh,
making change to achieving change.

S1 (40:43):
Yeah.

S8 (40:43):
Because certainly there are other communities in some of the
capital cities that are deafblind and have a certain degree of, um,
you know, similar experience of what we've had. I think
we've just been very fortunate that we had a mover
and shaker in there, young fellow from Wollongong. And, uh,
he went to the right person to who knew where

(41:06):
to find, uh, members of the local community. And yeah,
we haven't found everybody, but we've found a, um, a
nice little cohort that, um, you know, had to do
things that you sort of people start to hear about it.
And so it's good that. So we are actually also, uh,
trying to help the Sydney community rebirth. I suppose what

(41:29):
they did had some years ago, they sort of fell into, um,
I don't, I don't get to use, I suppose, in
just because of a number of support and things were lost. So, uh,
we're sort of exporting it from the country to the city,
which that's what we hope. And at the moment, we're
looking very encouraging.

S1 (41:49):
Well done. It's kind of interesting, Stephen, how, uh, you know,
different cities seem to be either better or not so
well set up for people who are deaf, blind. Uh,
having done this program for a while, it's kind of
interesting how that plays out. And I think a lot
of it obviously depends on the individuals that are involved
with any particular group or organization at that point in time.

S8 (42:12):
Yeah, yeah. See what they're saying? You need to be
the change you want to see. Somebody has to actually
make the move.

S1 (42:19):
Yeah.

S8 (42:20):
Make something happen. And it's amazing when you do that.
Other people, uh, like myself come out and say, oh,
that's a good idea. I'm happy to come along to that.
And that's sort of what's happened.

S1 (42:30):
Hey, Stephen, what makes you tick? As I've said, we've
spoken before in the past. You're a wonderful advocate. What
makes you tick? There's a there's a simple question for you.

S8 (42:40):
Yes, a simple question. Pretty simple for me to figure.
Think of an answer. Um, I think I just did.
I do have some understanding in terms of this particular community,
at least, of, you know, the sense of isolation, because
I've been through a journey myself where I started out,

(43:02):
you know, with a degree of hearing impairment, uh, born
with that and uh, nominally, uh, normal vision. But of course,
it wasn't. And it deteriorated to the extent that it
would have been apparent to anybody who, um, knew what
to look for in my teenage years, the 20s, that

(43:22):
I was in different category. In fact, my brother had
been diagnosed or when he went for a medical examination,
and we were referred to a doctor who was specializing
in his particular area. And my vision deteriorated to the
point where I'm now blind. So each step along the way,
you just get a bit more understanding of the issues
of deaf blindness and, and, um, I guess a bit

(43:47):
more empathy for the, the situation of not only those
of us who are oral, but also those of us
who use sign language and just what the difficulties are.
Nothing like being thrown in at the deep end to
learn that you need to do something. And I get that.
What makes me tick?

S1 (44:05):
Stephen. Good answer. Uh, we appreciate you speaking to us.
We wish you and the group well. And again, thank
you for your time. Keep up the great work.

S9 (44:14):
Well, thank you very much.

S1 (44:15):
That's Stephen Haberman there, a member of the deafblind group
in the Hunter Valley. We'll put details up about the
group up on our show notes, if you'd like to
find out more. Well, some really excellent news during the
BCA 50th Anniversary Convention, with the presentations of the Certificates
of appreciation, our guest, Stephen Belbin, was recognized with a

(44:38):
certificate of appreciation for his wonderful work in the area
of advocacy, particularly for our first Australians. Stephen, welcome and congratulations.

S10 (44:46):
Thanks, Ben. It's much appreciated. And I was very, very
surprised and and very humble in in the award. I
was certainly much appreciated.

S5 (44:56):
Yeah.

S1 (44:56):
Well a lot of us that tune into the BCA conventions,
particularly those online, you're the person who obviously does it.
The welcome to country. Can you tell us a little
bit about your background? Because we've spoken to you about
different issues but not much about you. So can you
tell us a bit about yourself and how you got
into this advocacy area?

S10 (45:14):
A little bit of background. I'm blind myself. I have
been for many years and I you know, I went through, um,
I lost my sight about age of 17. So I, um,
went through, uh, a lot of, um, I guess a
lot of the challenges to gain employment and so forth.
And so I ended up, um, wanting to work in

(45:34):
the area of public relations and promotions. I worked for
a few entertainment organisations, but, um, you know, there's competition
out there and in a lot of those areas and
so forth. So I decided I'd better, um, smarten my
boots up and, um, get some experience in entertainment, promotion
and so forth. So I decided to, uh, do a
tertiary course, a diploma in, um, in public relations and, um, uh,

(46:00):
team building in, uh, in, uh, business to be able
to run that. So I did that. But what I
found back in 1993 was there wasn't much in the
way of technology if you're buying, uh, tertiary education and
so forth. And that was back in the days when
screen readers were pretty light on and windows had only
just started. And I think it was, I don't know,

(46:21):
it might have even been jaws 2.0 or something the
way back anyway. So yeah, so there wasn't much support, whatever.
So I managed to muddle my way through that. But
you know, I had a lot of challenges through it. Yeah,
it was one computer that, you know, it cost a
million bucks back in those days. And I was locked
away in a room somewhere to do it. So I
realize it's yeah, this wasn't real independent. And, you know,

(46:44):
it was very, very secluded rather than inclusion. So I
got interested in advocacy and, um, I remember having a
couple of major challenges and a couple of pretty big
arguments with the Department of, um, education back then. And, uh,
I approached BCA for some support. One cities in Australia,
and I got some good support and, um, got a
lot of experience in advocacy. So, so from that point,

(47:07):
I became very interested in advocacy and became involved in
a lot of advocacy areas, be it with BCA and, um, and,
you know, and other organisations and, um, ended up, uh,
you know, getting a job, getting my own business going
and everything else working, a lot of other areas. And
I ended up teaching, as I have been for the
last 20 something years with In-tape, and it's around assistive technology.

(47:29):
So I've done the full circle, you know, and BCA,
I've been on the board of BCA for, oh, it
would have been probably 13 years. And one of the
things I did say in BCA, though, was, um, you know,
there was a lot of advocacy and several happening, but, uh,
there were, you know, more areas where advocacy wasn't real strong,
especially when it comes to, to disability. And in the

(47:52):
area of, uh, uh, Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people, disability, uh,
it was pretty light on the ground. And, you know,
you know, I remember Uncle Lester, Lostock gum, he was
an elder once said, well, if you if you've got
a disability, you're Aboriginal. You've got two chances of discrimination
rather than one. So I got involved in that area.
I've got an Aboriginal background as well as well. So, um,

(48:15):
you know, I got involved in that area. And look,
with BCA, we, we advocated and we've always for the
last probably 13 years, my time in the board, we've
slowly chipped away and um, whilst, you know, changes is
a big thing to have happen uh, in, in, in
services for marginalised groups being of blind people, as well

(48:36):
as low vision and particular Aboriginal people. So we did
small steps and, um, you know, we started off with
things like recognition with, um, you know, uh, email signatures
at the bottom of all staff and board email.

S1 (48:49):
Um, yeah.

S10 (48:50):
Okay. And also to on the website where the Aboriginal
flags and acknowledgement there. We also um, uh, have um,
acknowledgement of country at every board meeting and at formal meetings. Um,
you know, we have it as well. So that's, that's recognised.
But I think one of the things we did do, Peter, um,
we have done over the last few years, which, um,

(49:10):
began to really regenerate in the coming, coming year ahead is, um,
we had forums for Aboriginal people to, to come along
to people with disability, uh, particularly around vision impairment, to
come along and, and tell us what, what they want
to do. And we also have, um, online we had
some things called yarning circles and what that was, that

(49:31):
was a zoom thing where we have a regular catch
up about every three months. And it wasn't just for
Aboriginal people, it was for people to be able to
ask questions because, you know, we're all about Aboriginal people
and and people, not Aboriginal people and people with disability
are all about sharing and, and, and and being able

(49:52):
to share ideas and ask questions. So at those up
yarning circles online in zoom and teams, we would have people,
non-Aboriginal people ask the questions like what is women's business?
Why aren't men allowed to be there? Things like, you know,
why are you allowed to call each other a blackfella?
But for someone who's non-aboriginal isn't allowed to? All those
questions that people wonder, you know, why is it so?

(50:15):
And well, we're sharing information and and and provide that.
And it builds a, a strong relationship between the groups
as well. So that's kind of a bit of a
quick round the world trip of where I've been, why
I'm here now. And I guess the, the, the award
that I received, um, a couple of weeks back is
in recognition for that. And look, you know, awards are

(50:36):
one thing that's fantastic, but it's your peers. It's been
recognised by your peers for what you've done. And that's
the important thing that, you know, time moves on, Awards
might get put away in cupboards or whatever, but that
that actual event and that, that what, you know, it's
always remembered and, and that sort of thing.

S1 (50:55):
So yeah, especially especially special if I can use the tautology, uh,
in the 50th anniversary, I Stephen, you talked about, uh,
you know, First Australians and the fact that, uh, you know,
you get two chances of discrimination, of course, two chances
of bad health as well, you know, because they're way,
way overrepresented with eye disease and kidney disease and, and

(51:16):
other illnesses as well.

S10 (51:17):
Yep. That's exactly right. And, um, you know, whilst the government,
you know, um, has its best interests, you know, trying
to sort that out and everybody would be aware of
closing the gap, which is a list of challenges for
First Nations people as you, as you rightly say, and health.
A lot of a lot of health problems are kidney disease,

(51:38):
as you say, and, you know, and all those sort
of heart disease. And it just goes on and on.
The life expectancy for an Aboriginal male is, you know,
is at least ten years less than what a non-Aboriginal
islands country is and and less for a female as well.
It's it's a pretty big difference. And, um, you know,
as they get towards the end of Aboriginal person's health, um,

(52:02):
ageing or whatever. Yeah, it's, it's a lot more challenging
to come in earlier as well just because life expectancy
is a number. It obviously has all those other ailments
that lead up to when you get older as well.
So there's a lot of organizations that are doing some
great research. And, you know, at VCA, uh, is is
partnering with a lot of those organizations as well. So
we're trying to get we're trying to get a, you know,

(52:24):
a bit of a look at it from a practical
perspective of, well, let's be inclusive and really ask questions and,
you know, gain plenty of knowledge about some of the
challenges and, and promote some of the, um, you know,
the good things that come out of it, you know,
and that sort of stuff. And, um, you know, I
think that's, you know, going a long way and, you know,

(52:45):
it's it's a little, a little way to, um, to go.
But we're we're slowly getting there.

S1 (52:51):
I had a bit of a smile to my self-esteem.
When you talk about your early days in education, as
you said, you've come full circle. You you are sitting
on the other side of the classroom now at the
front of the classroom.

S10 (53:01):
Yeah. That's right.

S1 (53:02):
Do you see some irony in that?

S10 (53:03):
Oh, I do.

S5 (53:04):
And, you know.

S10 (53:06):
I do. Some of the students that I've had in
the past, you know, you'd have a classroom or, you know,
sometimes when you're doing the on site teaching at some
of the colleges, you know, probably a dozen people, I guess,
and a dozen people who are totally blind or using
screen readers on individual computers can be fun or not. But, um,
you know, sometimes you'll get younger people who are, you know,

(53:28):
who are there for they might have just gone through
high school and they're 15 or 16 and they've decided, well,
I'm going to go to TAFE and get a qualification. And,
you know, I'll give it a go out in the world.
But say to you, you know, ah, ah, you know, Mr. Velvet,
thanks for all your help. We just want to, you know,
you know, you go around the classroom and say, look,
why don't you finish this certificate for or whatever it
is you might be doing in business admin or whatever

(53:51):
it might be. What would you like to do when
you finish up at school? And, um, yeah, I'd pay up.
And they say, well, we just want to be like
you and, you know, be able to get a get
a job and help other people and that sort of thing.
And that's, that's pretty good. You know, that in itself. That's. Yeah.
Forget the paycheck. They've sort of made a vacation. You know,
being motivated like that. It's just just magic, you know,

(54:13):
and um, it's really good to see and look. It's
for me, the whole thing has been a real gift,
you know, because, um, as I said before, I've done
the full circle and I've come back around and you
know sort of who I am, as you say. On
the other side of that teaching this. But it's all
those things you learn along the way. And, um, the
experiences that I went and someone said to me, you know,

(54:35):
one of the students, that same student actually in the
class said, but, you know, you, uh, operate the computer
and you do things and help us, but you seem
to know what the problem is that we're going to
we're about to have before we have it. How do
you how do you know that? It's like magic. And
I said, it's only because I've been down the same road.
I've hit the computer in the same spot. You've hit

(54:55):
the keyboard in and. Yeah. And yeah, I had that
same frustration. So. And look, that's why you know I'm
a firm believer of, you know, sometimes the best teacher.
And assistive technology is usually a person who's got a disability.
So it has to use it.

S5 (55:09):
So experience.

S1 (55:11):
I think a lot of time we never have enough time.
It's been really fair. And to get to know you
a little bit better, keep up the tremendous work. Again,
congratulations on the recognition, particularly in the 50th anniversary. I
think there's a real sense of importance about the fact
that this was the year that you were recognised. Uh, yeah.
I'll look forward to the next time we catch up. Steven.

S10 (55:30):
Peter, thank you very much. And, uh, thank you for
your time, too. But I did want to say that
that is really important. It is the 50th anniversary. And
when I was asked, would I like to do the
acknowledgement of country, that was for me, that's a highlight. That's,
you know, it's something that, uh, it was it's special
at every convention. We haven't had one for a long
time because of Covid and everything else. But here we were,

(55:52):
the 50th anniversary, and I was asked to do it,
and I think BCA for that. And I thank them. And,
you know, for all of my colleagues that work there
as well, for the recognition and so forth. Peter, have
a great, great day, and I'll talk to you again soon.

S1 (56:06):
Stephen Belbin there. What a character. What a deserving winner
of the, uh, certificate of appreciation from blind South Australia
at this, their 50th anniversary year. Our audio described show
of the week is coming up this Sunday evening. 730
SBS Main Channel. Statue of Liberty. The French giant. This

(56:28):
tracks the erection of this French giant in the Bay
of New York over 100 years ago, and the fact
that over 4 million visitors come every year to see it.
Just a bit less than the amount of listeners to
this program. That's the Statue of Liberty. A French giant
coming up this Sunday evening. 730 SBS Main Channel. Audio

(56:50):
described and it is rated PG. Some birthdays before we go.
Stacey Barrington having a birthday. Good on you, Susie. What
a tremendous advocate and vivacious character. Susie is having a birthday.
Happy birthday to you. Stephen Palmer, champion blind cricketer, having
a birthday and cyclist. Also Nathan Luke, another person who's

(57:11):
played blind cricket for Australia. Having a birthday. Happy birthday
to you, Luke. Paul Mugabe over there in Kenya having
a birthday. Good on you, Paul. Hope life is going
well for you. I always love hearing from you. Shoot
us an email whenever you like. Paul Mugambi having a birthday.
A very big happy birthday to you. Hope that life
is going especially well to. That's it for the programme.

(57:32):
Sam Rickard, thanks so much for your help. Pam Green,
thanks so much for yours. Reminding you that Focal Point
is available on that favourite podcast platform of yours. If
you like the programme, even if you don't, please tell
a friend or two. Always room for one more listener.
On behalf of Philip Napier. This is Peter Greco saying
all being well. Focal point back at the same time

(57:55):
next week. Be kind to yourselves. Look out for others
on Vision Australia Radio and the Reading Radio Network. This
is focal point.