September 10, 2023 • 10 mins
A mentor can provide you with useful advice and a great sounding board to tease out workplace issues. But often women in particular are paired with a mentor, instead of being given a pay rise or promotion.
So, who is mentoring actually benefitting?
CEO of Jobsbank Karina Davis explains how you can build an effective mentoring plan that works for everyone involved.
+++
Getting It Right is a Jobsbank podcast. It was produced by Deadset Studios and hosted by Rae Johnston.
To find your downloadable Getting It Right Guide click here. Visit the Jobsbank Resource Centre for more information on inclusive employment and social procurement.
CREDITS
Host: Rae Johnston
Deadset Studios executive producers: Kellie Riordan, Ann Chesterman, Rachel Fountain
Deadset Studios producer: Luci McAfee
Sound Design: Scott Stronach
We acknowledge Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Australians and Traditional Custodians of the land on which this show was made.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Employee (00:05):
Hey boss, I got that new contract. Thanks for that.
Employer (00:10):
No, thank you. You've earned it.
Employee (00:12):
I just wanted to clarify something with you. I was
comparing my contract with a few other people and look it,
it seems like the small print is a bit different.
Like I realize I negotiated with you and I, they
asked for it to be this way and, and I
am grateful, but it seems like if we all hit
our targets, literally everyone else like all of the men,
(00:37):
well they get a bonus? But instead of extra money,
I get a mentor.
Employer (00:42):
That's right. You spoke and we listened sweetheart and I
have never been prouder. When all those blokes asked for
more money, you saw the long game you want a mentor instead.
I see a lot of myself in you. And I
know the real value for someone like you is in
a structured coffee catch-up once a month with an older
(01:02):
woman who can tell you just how bad things were
when she was your age.
Employee (01:06):
But just to be super clear-
Employer (01:08):
Maybe even someone like me reading between the lines.
Employee (01:11):
But I would also like a bonus.
Employer (01:14):
Great goal, love, love, love, a goal setter. We'll talk
about it over coffee.
Rae Johnston (01:28):
While a mentor can provide you with useful advice and
a great sounding board to tease out workplace issues, being
granted a mentor is not the solution to everything. Sometimes
workers and it's often women, are offered a mentor instead
of a promotion or a bonus. As if having a
mentor might magically wallpaper over the gender pay gap.
(01:58):
This is Getting It Right. A podcast by Jobs Bank
and I'm Rae Johnston. In season two, we're helping you
unearth the untapped job market to attract a more diverse
pool of employees across your organization. Doctor Karina Davis is
the CEO of Jobs Bank. But before that, Karina spent
20 years in education, she worked as one of the
(02:20):
leading educators at University of Melbourne and Melbourne Polytech. Karina.
You're in one of the highest positions at Jobs Bank.
Have you had experiences of being mentored in the past?
Karina Davis (02:33):
Yes. And I just wanna say not in the past,
in the very recent present and probably into the future
as well. I see that getting support through mentoring in
the particular ways that it works for me is a
career need.
Rae Johnston (02:47):
So what specifically have you gained from a mentoring relationship?
What has it given you?
Karina Davis (02:54):
It's been really essential to understand systems and politics and
have them unpacked by a mentor for me even to
really structural levels. When I went back to work as
a new mum and my boss at the time, helped
me find the flexible work policies, helped me by role modeling,
how I might be challenged in the work that I
(03:16):
need to do as a mother and a worker. And
we role modeled what my response would be alongside the
lines of the organisation's policies. And it helped me build
confidence in standing my ground and speaking for what my
right was.
Rae Johnston (03:30):
I've got an informal group of mentors myself, a bit
of a peer mentoring situation, but I've never been able
to receive mentoring myself. And I'm wondering how does that
relationship actually work in practicality?
Karina Davis (03:48):
It's been not about a mentoring relationship that is inducting
me into the current system and structure. I have to
be honest, it's been mentors who have understood that the
current systems and structures do harm to people and disadvantage people.
They understand that there's a lot to challenge in workplaces
(04:09):
that we operate in and that it's ok to do
that challenge.
Rae Johnston (04:13):
For women in particular when you ask about promotions or
why you didn't get a pay rise or how to
move up to the next level in an organiation, sometimes
the answer to that is that you need a mentor.
s a mentor always the solution to the issue of
(04:34):
women getting promoted?
Karina Davis (04:35):
This is a really complex issue because women are discriminated against.
That can be an uncomfortable statement for lots of people
to hear. But there is research after research after research findings,
evidence findings to say that in the workplace, women are
discriminated against for all sorts of reasons. If we have
(04:57):
a look at a woman needing mentoring because she's not promoted,
and that's because we see that the fault rests in
that one individual woman, then we've got a broader problem.
In terms of mentoring and women, the people often that
need some mentoring, not the only ones are the people
that are the ones that can create and or maintain
the barriers and constraints that women face. And so people
(05:20):
in recruitment and inHR and line managers of people need mentoring,
to understand how those constraints and barriers impact on and
discriminate against women. And not just women, all sorts of
people get discriminated against in the workplace. So there's a
mentoring requirement there and it's not about the women, it's
about the system. And so mentorship for women that helps
(05:43):
them to see the structural barriers that are faced and
how they can step into and take greater agency in
the direction of their lives is also necessary. But as
long as it's not as an individual woman at fault, conversation.
Rae Johnston (05:59):
So is there hard evidence that mentoring works? Does it
further your career?
Karina Davis (06:04):
My question is who is mentoring working for? And so
you know what women are still underpaid and not promoted
in the leadership funnel. Women are absent, not completely but
not at the, you know, they, they don't have parity
in terms of the roles that they hold. Women of color,
people of color are still facing discrimination in the workplace
(06:26):
at amazing and unfortunate statistical rates. LGBTQI+ people and communities
are facing discrimination in the workplace and broader discrimination more socially.
People from the trans community are exceptionally discriminated against, people
with diverse abilities are facing employment barriers that they shouldn't
(06:46):
have to face. So if we have a look at
all of that, and we think that mentoring is gonna
solve that problem or it already has solved that problem,
then we haven't solved that problem. We're structured in narrow
ways in workplaces and we really celebrate what we see
as masculine leadership qualities. So if you have a look
(07:07):
at the number of people where the discrimination rates in
employment continue to be present, and if we have a
look at what our employment structures are like, then I
need to come back and ask who is mentoring for.
Rae Johnston (07:20):
So how can HR departments then formalise some sort of mentoring
relationship process that does work? What structures do they need
to be putting into place to make a program beneficial
for all parties and the organization?
Karina Davis (07:39):
We could have a look at the leadership funnel, what
are the characteristics, the diverse characteristics of the people in
the entry level jobs in our organization and as it
funnels up to leadership, who drops off and how do
we go to the people that aren't being represented and
ask them what are the barriers and constraints you're facing?
And how do you experience that in this organization? And
(08:02):
then who do we need to talk to, to ensure
that those barriers and constraints are removed? We can match
people with experience of challenges. I know when I went
back to work as a mother of young Children, it
would have been really great if the workplace had kind
of matched me with a mentoring peer circle of women
who are returning to work and struggling to understand what
that looks like and struggling to share strategies of how
(08:25):
you manage that. That would have been fantastic. So having
a look at people and what they're bringing to work
and the challenges or the shifts that they're making and
grouping them with like people across the career spectrum and
so that they can share strategies and understandings that might
be a really great mentoring approach that HR professionals could think about.
Rae Johnston (08:45):
What other types of mentoring are useful in, you know,
squaring up the ledger so to say a little bit. I've,
I've heard of something called reverse mentoring. What is that?
Karina Davis (08:54):
You actually get someone who's had less experience in organisation
and pair them up with someone who's had a long
experience or a long career experience so that they can
both learn. Not just it's the wise older person, often
the wise older man telling someone what they should be doing,
but actually, so that there's a learning for both people there.
(09:16):
We really need to see mentoring as opening up to
diversity that we have all got particular experiences and perspectives
that have built across our lives. And that doesn't ever
give us the full picture. And so we need to
understand even when we're actively searching that a barrier for
me is not a barrier for somebody else. And I
(09:36):
can't always see what the barriers are for someone else.
And so looking at mentoring as opening up our eyes
to diversity and structural blocks and barriers is really, really important.
Rae Johnston (09:50):
Doctor Karina Davis CEO of Jobs Bank in Victoria. There's
plenty more information, helpful tips and resources to help you
with inclusive hiring and procurement on the Jobs Bank Resource
Centre at jobsbank.org.au.
Getting It Right is a podcast from Jobs Bank and
(10:11):
is produced by Dead Set studios and hosted by me,
Rae Johnston. You can follow the podcast in the podcast
app of your choice. That way you don't miss an episode.
This episode was recorded on the unceded lands of the
sovereign Darug, Gandangara and Wiradjuri peoples and the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation. It was
(10:33):
produced and edited on Turrbal and Jagera land and we wish to pay
our deepest respects to their elders past and present. And
we ask that you too acknowledge the Aboriginal or Torres
Strait Islander lands that you're listening from.
Hey boss, I got that new contract. Thanks for that.
Employer (00:10):
No, thank you. You've earned it.
Employee (00:12):
I just wanted to clarify something with you. I was
comparing my contract with a few other people and look it,
it seems like the small print is a bit different.
Like I realize I negotiated with you and I, they
asked for it to be this way and, and I
am grateful, but it seems like if we all hit
our targets, literally everyone else like all of the men,
(00:37):
well they get a bonus? But instead of extra money,
I get a mentor.
Employer (00:42):
That's right. You spoke and we listened sweetheart and I
have never been prouder. When all those blokes asked for
more money, you saw the long game you want a mentor instead.
I see a lot of myself in you. And I
know the real value for someone like you is in
a structured coffee catch-up once a month with an older
(01:02):
woman who can tell you just how bad things were
when she was your age.
Employee (01:06):
But just to be super clear-
Employer (01:08):
Maybe even someone like me reading between the lines.
Employee (01:11):
But I would also like a bonus.
Employer (01:14):
Great goal, love, love, love, a goal setter. We'll talk
about it over coffee.
Rae Johnston (01:28):
While a mentor can provide you with useful advice and
a great sounding board to tease out workplace issues, being
granted a mentor is not the solution to everything. Sometimes
workers and it's often women, are offered a mentor instead
of a promotion or a bonus. As if having a
mentor might magically wallpaper over the gender pay gap.
(01:58):
This is Getting It Right. A podcast by Jobs Bank
and I'm Rae Johnston. In season two, we're helping you
unearth the untapped job market to attract a more diverse
pool of employees across your organization. Doctor Karina Davis is
the CEO of Jobs Bank. But before that, Karina spent
20 years in education, she worked as one of the
(02:20):
leading educators at University of Melbourne and Melbourne Polytech. Karina.
You're in one of the highest positions at Jobs Bank.
Have you had experiences of being mentored in the past?
Karina Davis (02:33):
Yes. And I just wanna say not in the past,
in the very recent present and probably into the future
as well. I see that getting support through mentoring in
the particular ways that it works for me is a
career need.
Rae Johnston (02:47):
So what specifically have you gained from a mentoring relationship?
What has it given you?
Karina Davis (02:54):
It's been really essential to understand systems and politics and
have them unpacked by a mentor for me even to
really structural levels. When I went back to work as
a new mum and my boss at the time, helped
me find the flexible work policies, helped me by role modeling,
how I might be challenged in the work that I
(03:16):
need to do as a mother and a worker. And
we role modeled what my response would be alongside the
lines of the organisation's policies. And it helped me build
confidence in standing my ground and speaking for what my
right was.
Rae Johnston (03:30):
I've got an informal group of mentors myself, a bit
of a peer mentoring situation, but I've never been able
to receive mentoring myself. And I'm wondering how does that
relationship actually work in practicality?
Karina Davis (03:48):
It's been not about a mentoring relationship that is inducting
me into the current system and structure. I have to
be honest, it's been mentors who have understood that the
current systems and structures do harm to people and disadvantage people.
They understand that there's a lot to challenge in workplaces
(04:09):
that we operate in and that it's ok to do
that challenge.
Rae Johnston (04:13):
For women in particular when you ask about promotions or
why you didn't get a pay rise or how to
move up to the next level in an organiation, sometimes
the answer to that is that you need a mentor.
s a mentor always the solution to the issue of
(04:34):
women getting promoted?
Karina Davis (04:35):
This is a really complex issue because women are discriminated against.
That can be an uncomfortable statement for lots of people
to hear. But there is research after research after research findings,
evidence findings to say that in the workplace, women are
discriminated against for all sorts of reasons. If we have
(04:57):
a look at a woman needing mentoring because she's not promoted,
and that's because we see that the fault rests in
that one individual woman, then we've got a broader problem.
In terms of mentoring and women, the people often that
need some mentoring, not the only ones are the people
that are the ones that can create and or maintain
the barriers and constraints that women face. And so people
(05:20):
in recruitment and inHR and line managers of people need mentoring,
to understand how those constraints and barriers impact on and
discriminate against women. And not just women, all sorts of
people get discriminated against in the workplace. So there's a
mentoring requirement there and it's not about the women, it's
about the system. And so mentorship for women that helps
(05:43):
them to see the structural barriers that are faced and
how they can step into and take greater agency in
the direction of their lives is also necessary. But as
long as it's not as an individual woman at fault, conversation.
Rae Johnston (05:59):
So is there hard evidence that mentoring works? Does it
further your career?
Karina Davis (06:04):
My question is who is mentoring working for? And so
you know what women are still underpaid and not promoted
in the leadership funnel. Women are absent, not completely but
not at the, you know, they, they don't have parity
in terms of the roles that they hold. Women of color,
people of color are still facing discrimination in the workplace
(06:26):
at amazing and unfortunate statistical rates. LGBTQI+ people and communities
are facing discrimination in the workplace and broader discrimination more socially.
People from the trans community are exceptionally discriminated against, people
with diverse abilities are facing employment barriers that they shouldn't
(06:46):
have to face. So if we have a look at
all of that, and we think that mentoring is gonna
solve that problem or it already has solved that problem,
then we haven't solved that problem. We're structured in narrow
ways in workplaces and we really celebrate what we see
as masculine leadership qualities. So if you have a look
(07:07):
at the number of people where the discrimination rates in
employment continue to be present, and if we have a
look at what our employment structures are like, then I
need to come back and ask who is mentoring for.
Rae Johnston (07:20):
So how can HR departments then formalise some sort of mentoring
relationship process that does work? What structures do they need
to be putting into place to make a program beneficial
for all parties and the organization?
Karina Davis (07:39):
We could have a look at the leadership funnel, what
are the characteristics, the diverse characteristics of the people in
the entry level jobs in our organization and as it
funnels up to leadership, who drops off and how do
we go to the people that aren't being represented and
ask them what are the barriers and constraints you're facing?
And how do you experience that in this organization? And
(08:02):
then who do we need to talk to, to ensure
that those barriers and constraints are removed? We can match
people with experience of challenges. I know when I went
back to work as a mother of young Children, it
would have been really great if the workplace had kind
of matched me with a mentoring peer circle of women
who are returning to work and struggling to understand what
that looks like and struggling to share strategies of how
(08:25):
you manage that. That would have been fantastic. So having
a look at people and what they're bringing to work
and the challenges or the shifts that they're making and
grouping them with like people across the career spectrum and
so that they can share strategies and understandings that might
be a really great mentoring approach that HR professionals could think about.
Rae Johnston (08:45):
What other types of mentoring are useful in, you know,
squaring up the ledger so to say a little bit. I've,
I've heard of something called reverse mentoring. What is that?
Karina Davis (08:54):
You actually get someone who's had less experience in organisation
and pair them up with someone who's had a long
experience or a long career experience so that they can
both learn. Not just it's the wise older person, often
the wise older man telling someone what they should be doing,
but actually, so that there's a learning for both people there.
(09:16):
We really need to see mentoring as opening up to
diversity that we have all got particular experiences and perspectives
that have built across our lives. And that doesn't ever
give us the full picture. And so we need to
understand even when we're actively searching that a barrier for
me is not a barrier for somebody else. And I
(09:36):
can't always see what the barriers are for someone else.
And so looking at mentoring as opening up our eyes
to diversity and structural blocks and barriers is really, really important.
Rae Johnston (09:50):
Doctor Karina Davis CEO of Jobs Bank in Victoria. There's
plenty more information, helpful tips and resources to help you
with inclusive hiring and procurement on the Jobs Bank Resource
Centre at jobsbank.org.au.
Getting It Right is a podcast from Jobs Bank and
(10:11):
is produced by Dead Set studios and hosted by me,
Rae Johnston. You can follow the podcast in the podcast
app of your choice. That way you don't miss an episode.
This episode was recorded on the unceded lands of the
sovereign Darug, Gandangara and Wiradjuri peoples and the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation. It was
(10:33):
produced and edited on Turrbal and Jagera land and we wish to pay
our deepest respects to their elders past and present. And
we ask that you too acknowledge the Aboriginal or Torres
Strait Islander lands that you're listening from.
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