August 27, 2023 • 10 mins
The lack of leadership diversity has been item one on company board agendas for a while now. But has enough been done to enable diverse voices at the top of your organisation?
How can you re-design the seats at your leadership table?
Peter Mousaferiadis, CEO of Cultural Infusion and founder of Diversity Atlas can help you implement a “top down” approach, making sure your organisation’s culture is there to support it.
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Getting It Right is a Jobsbank podcast. It was produced by Deadset Studios and hosted by Rae Johnston.
To find your downloadable Getting It Right Guide click here. Visit the Jobsbank Resource Centre for more information on inclusive employment and social procurement.
CREDITS
Host: Rae Johnston
Deadset Studios executive producers: Kellie Riordan, Ann Chesterman, Rachel Fountain
Deadset Studios producer: Luci McAfee
Sound Design: Scott Stronach
We acknowledge Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Australians and Traditional Custodians of the land on which this show was made.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rae (00:03):
Right. I hereby call this board meeting to order. Harriet?
Harriet (00:09):
Present.
Rae (00:10):
Thank you, Harriet. Lovely new clubs. Charlotte. Can you confirm
your attendance please?
Charlotte (00:16):
Here.
Rae (00:18):
Beautiful drive, Charlotte. Right, Olive?
Olive (00:24):
That's me, present. Now, what's item one on the agenda?
Charlotte (00:31):
If I'm not mistaken Olive my love, I think it's the
same item as last month and the 23 months preceding
that. HR wants us to build more diversity into the executive
leadership team.
Harriet (00:44):
Oh, diversity. It is so important. Uh I love the diverse.
Olive (00:50):
I mean, call me absolutely bonkers. Would we start by
having someone who lives in a different suburb to us?
Charlotte (00:56):
Oh, I love it. Or, or what about somebody who
doesn't play tennis at the club?
Rae (01:02):
Now, you're cooking with gas, Charlotte. But uh do you
know any of them?
Charlotte (01:09):
I mean, not personally, but we have said they're very welcome.
Harriet (01:14):
They do know where to find us.
Rae (01:18):
Right-o then. Great progress for today. Let's table diversity for next
month and uh adjourn to the 19th hole. Brilliant, job done, ladies. Meeting, dismissed.
Rae Johnston (01:37):
The old golf course meeting. Hopefully a thing of the past.
A few years ago, we saw the start of a big
push toward inclusive hiring, mostly in entry or lower level roles.
But since bringing those entry level employees through the door,
how many have moved up in their organisation? And do
(01:57):
leadership teams of Australian companies and government departments reflect our community?
From Jobsbank, this is Getting It Right . And I'm Rae Johnston.
In season two, we're helping you diversify your workforce in
every aspect and on every level. Peter Mousaferiadis works with organisations
(02:23):
like Amazon, the UN and BDP International. He's the CEO
of Cultural Infusion and founder of Diversity Atlas. He looks
at a company's diversity and what they can do to
improve it. So, Peter, why is it so important that
there's a range of people on the leadership team of
(02:44):
any organisation?
Peter Mousaferiadis (02:46):
If there's no diversity in the leadership team, then organisations
can also put themselves at risk and we see this
again and again and again where when organisations don't reflect,
not only the entire organisation but the communities, there's a
disconnect and tension builds. Diverse perspectives offer, you know, a
(03:10):
broad range of ideas, different voices and experiences that can
avoid group think. If everyone is the same, then no-one
is thinking.
Rae Johnston (03:21):
So say there's an organisation that is bringing in diverse staff,
but it's all at entry level. How do you shake
up that leadership team? How do you make sure you
get diverse people in decision making positions?
Peter Mousaferiadis (03:37):
I think it's about taking stock, coming back to that
question about who are we? And the only way you
can do that is by looking at the data, what does
the data of reveal and then the data will start
to show us what those opportunities are. So when you
start to bring people on board in an organisation, is
the culture, is the organisation ready to be able to
(04:00):
include people from a range of different backgrounds into that organisation.
So that's gonna require some training, not only at a
board level, but throughout the whole organisation, not just at
one level. So I think it's critical for organisations to
embed the value that diversity can bring to an organisation.
(04:24):
And more importantly to how it builds human capacity, how
it builds capacity in the environments that they're working in.
Rae Johnston (04:33):
Are there any good reasons why we shouldn't just bring
more diverse people straight into leadership positions?
Peter Mousaferiadis (04:43):
So if you just bring in and appoint a diverse
leadership board, right from the very beginning and it's not
reflective of the community, it's, there's a disconnect. So yeah,
you might bring someone into an organisation and start to
move them very quickly through the organisation into a leadership
position or point them in a leadership position, but they
might not even stay there for too long if the
(05:05):
culture of the organisation isn't inclusive from the very beginning,
and that requires work. That requires looking at biases, you know,
every organisation has biases. So how do we start to
see these biases and how they play out in an
organisation and how they impact on recruitment processes as well?
Rae Johnston (05:25):
Who's doing it right? Do you have examples of companies
that have made really positive progressive steps and created a
more diverse leadership team?
Peter Mousaferiadis (05:37):
Cast your mind back 30 years ago, you look at
marketing technologies. They were very basic, they were all geared around,
you know, gender, maybe age, where people lived. Now, they've
become so sophisticated, they know what the buyer is going
to buy before the buyer has worked out what they're
gonna buy. They know the consumer so well, but these
organisations didn't know themselves well. And they realized that. Now
(06:01):
a lot of the major organisations out there, you know,
Microsoft developed its LEAP initiative which stands for Leading Ethnicity
and Accessibility Project. So they've started to move people into
leadership positions. Intel spent something like $300 million back in 2015
to start to get people, make the organisation not only
(06:22):
more inclusive and more diverse, but start to develop active
programs where they, they were engaging in communities. Sudeco was
a similar company where when they were setting up shop
in India, the Global DEI director, Rohini Anand , whom I know,
she was trying to get more women, just more women
to come in and into leadership positions and it was impossible.
(06:45):
She said it wasn't just enough to hire these people,
but they needed to actively engage, not only with the
communities but with the families. So they started a whole
range of programs where they got the families interested in
what the daughter was doing. So we can't see an organisation,
we can't see a company as operating in a vacuum.
(07:07):
So they need to extend out into the community. They
need to start to drive recruitment strategies. They need to
start to develop pathways so people can come into organisations.
Rae Johnston (07:19):
Do leadership targets work, because there's been a lot of debate
as to whether they help or not.
Peter Mousaferiadis (07:25):
Yes, targets do work. I've seen with some companies we've
worked with, they're developing these 10 year goals and they're
putting targets in place where they can incrementally work towards
achieving those diversity targets. So take, for example, mining companies
when they go into new communities and they're working in
(07:46):
those communities, often there's a huge disconnect where you might
end up having 2000 people working for a mining company
and they almost have no people from an Indigenous background
working in a mining company and that creates massive resentment
and disconnect. So what needs to even go on before
the company's established itself in that new community is engage
(08:10):
the community, consult with the community, and work beforehand to
see if it can start to find people from those
communities to come into that organisation. So they need to
already have that in the back of their mind. They
need to be framing their whole workforce around how they're
gonna get there. Now, they might not be able to
move into a community and say, 40% of that community
(08:33):
identifies as being Indigenous. We're not going to be able
to get there overnight, but they can start to go, OK,
we're gonna work towards maybe getting to 20% over a
10 year period. Now, what do we need to do
to get to that 20%? But it's not just about
bringing in the people at a, just at a lower level,
but it's also engaging, you know, with tertiary providers, engaging
(08:57):
with other community stakeholders, and starting to create pathways. So
people are not only just coming in at an entry
level from that community, but they might be coming in
at a coordinator level or at a management level or
maybe even at a director level.
Rae Johnston (09:14):
That's Peter Mousaferiadis from Cultural Infusion. If you want to find
a stack more resources and helpful tips on procurement and
how you can shape a dynamic, diverse workforce, head to
the Jobs Bank Resource Centre at jobsbank.org.au. Getting It Right is a
(09:36):
podcast from Jobs Bank and it is produced by Dead
Set studios. I'm Rae Johnston. This episode was recorded on
the unceded lands of the sovereign Darug, Gundungurra and Wiradjuri
peoples and the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation. It was
produced and edited on the lands of the Turrbal and
Jagera people and we wish to pay our deepest respects
(09:57):
to their elders past and present. And we ask that
you too acknowledge the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander lands
that you're listening from.
Right. I hereby call this board meeting to order. Harriet?
Harriet (00:09):
Present.
Rae (00:10):
Thank you, Harriet. Lovely new clubs. Charlotte. Can you confirm
your attendance please?
Charlotte (00:16):
Here.
Rae (00:18):
Beautiful drive, Charlotte. Right, Olive?
Olive (00:24):
That's me, present. Now, what's item one on the agenda?
Charlotte (00:31):
If I'm not mistaken Olive my love, I think it's the
same item as last month and the 23 months preceding
that. HR wants us to build more diversity into the executive
leadership team.
Harriet (00:44):
Oh, diversity. It is so important. Uh I love the diverse.
Olive (00:50):
I mean, call me absolutely bonkers. Would we start by
having someone who lives in a different suburb to us?
Charlotte (00:56):
Oh, I love it. Or, or what about somebody who
doesn't play tennis at the club?
Rae (01:02):
Now, you're cooking with gas, Charlotte. But uh do you
know any of them?
Charlotte (01:09):
I mean, not personally, but we have said they're very welcome.
Harriet (01:14):
They do know where to find us.
Rae (01:18):
Right-o then. Great progress for today. Let's table diversity for next
month and uh adjourn to the 19th hole. Brilliant, job done, ladies. Meeting, dismissed.
Rae Johnston (01:37):
The old golf course meeting. Hopefully a thing of the past.
A few years ago, we saw the start of a big
push toward inclusive hiring, mostly in entry or lower level roles.
But since bringing those entry level employees through the door,
how many have moved up in their organisation? And do
(01:57):
leadership teams of Australian companies and government departments reflect our community?
From Jobsbank, this is Getting It Right . And I'm Rae Johnston.
In season two, we're helping you diversify your workforce in
every aspect and on every level. Peter Mousaferiadis works with organisations
(02:23):
like Amazon, the UN and BDP International. He's the CEO
of Cultural Infusion and founder of Diversity Atlas. He looks
at a company's diversity and what they can do to
improve it. So, Peter, why is it so important that
there's a range of people on the leadership team of
(02:44):
any organisation?
Peter Mousaferiadis (02:46):
If there's no diversity in the leadership team, then organisations
can also put themselves at risk and we see this
again and again and again where when organisations don't reflect,
not only the entire organisation but the communities, there's a
disconnect and tension builds. Diverse perspectives offer, you know, a
(03:10):
broad range of ideas, different voices and experiences that can
avoid group think. If everyone is the same, then no-one
is thinking.
Rae Johnston (03:21):
So say there's an organisation that is bringing in diverse staff,
but it's all at entry level. How do you shake
up that leadership team? How do you make sure you
get diverse people in decision making positions?
Peter Mousaferiadis (03:37):
I think it's about taking stock, coming back to that
question about who are we? And the only way you
can do that is by looking at the data, what does
the data of reveal and then the data will start
to show us what those opportunities are. So when you
start to bring people on board in an organisation, is
the culture, is the organisation ready to be able to
(04:00):
include people from a range of different backgrounds into that organisation.
So that's gonna require some training, not only at a
board level, but throughout the whole organisation, not just at
one level. So I think it's critical for organisations to
embed the value that diversity can bring to an organisation.
(04:24):
And more importantly to how it builds human capacity, how
it builds capacity in the environments that they're working in.
Rae Johnston (04:33):
Are there any good reasons why we shouldn't just bring
more diverse people straight into leadership positions?
Peter Mousaferiadis (04:43):
So if you just bring in and appoint a diverse
leadership board, right from the very beginning and it's not
reflective of the community, it's, there's a disconnect. So yeah,
you might bring someone into an organisation and start to
move them very quickly through the organisation into a leadership
position or point them in a leadership position, but they
might not even stay there for too long if the
(05:05):
culture of the organisation isn't inclusive from the very beginning,
and that requires work. That requires looking at biases, you know,
every organisation has biases. So how do we start to
see these biases and how they play out in an
organisation and how they impact on recruitment processes as well?
Rae Johnston (05:25):
Who's doing it right? Do you have examples of companies
that have made really positive progressive steps and created a
more diverse leadership team?
Peter Mousaferiadis (05:37):
Cast your mind back 30 years ago, you look at
marketing technologies. They were very basic, they were all geared around,
you know, gender, maybe age, where people lived. Now, they've
become so sophisticated, they know what the buyer is going
to buy before the buyer has worked out what they're
gonna buy. They know the consumer so well, but these
organisations didn't know themselves well. And they realized that. Now
(06:01):
a lot of the major organisations out there, you know,
Microsoft developed its LEAP initiative which stands for Leading Ethnicity
and Accessibility Project. So they've started to move people into
leadership positions. Intel spent something like $300 million back in 2015
to start to get people, make the organisation not only
(06:22):
more inclusive and more diverse, but start to develop active
programs where they, they were engaging in communities. Sudeco was
a similar company where when they were setting up shop
in India, the Global DEI director, Rohini Anand , whom I know,
she was trying to get more women, just more women
to come in and into leadership positions and it was impossible.
(06:45):
She said it wasn't just enough to hire these people,
but they needed to actively engage, not only with the
communities but with the families. So they started a whole
range of programs where they got the families interested in
what the daughter was doing. So we can't see an organisation,
we can't see a company as operating in a vacuum.
(07:07):
So they need to extend out into the community. They
need to start to drive recruitment strategies. They need to
start to develop pathways so people can come into organisations.
Rae Johnston (07:19):
Do leadership targets work, because there's been a lot of debate
as to whether they help or not.
Peter Mousaferiadis (07:25):
Yes, targets do work. I've seen with some companies we've
worked with, they're developing these 10 year goals and they're
putting targets in place where they can incrementally work towards
achieving those diversity targets. So take, for example, mining companies
when they go into new communities and they're working in
(07:46):
those communities, often there's a huge disconnect where you might
end up having 2000 people working for a mining company
and they almost have no people from an Indigenous background
working in a mining company and that creates massive resentment
and disconnect. So what needs to even go on before
the company's established itself in that new community is engage
(08:10):
the community, consult with the community, and work beforehand to
see if it can start to find people from those
communities to come into that organisation. So they need to
already have that in the back of their mind. They
need to be framing their whole workforce around how they're
gonna get there. Now, they might not be able to
move into a community and say, 40% of that community
(08:33):
identifies as being Indigenous. We're not going to be able
to get there overnight, but they can start to go, OK,
we're gonna work towards maybe getting to 20% over a
10 year period. Now, what do we need to do
to get to that 20%? But it's not just about
bringing in the people at a, just at a lower level,
but it's also engaging, you know, with tertiary providers, engaging
(08:57):
with other community stakeholders, and starting to create pathways. So
people are not only just coming in at an entry
level from that community, but they might be coming in
at a coordinator level or at a management level or
maybe even at a director level.
Rae Johnston (09:14):
That's Peter Mousaferiadis from Cultural Infusion. If you want to find
a stack more resources and helpful tips on procurement and
how you can shape a dynamic, diverse workforce, head to
the Jobs Bank Resource Centre at jobsbank.org.au. Getting It Right is a
(09:36):
podcast from Jobs Bank and it is produced by Dead
Set studios. I'm Rae Johnston. This episode was recorded on
the unceded lands of the sovereign Darug, Gundungurra and Wiradjuri
peoples and the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation. It was
produced and edited on the lands of the Turrbal and
Jagera people and we wish to pay our deepest respects
(09:57):
to their elders past and present. And we ask that
you too acknowledge the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander lands
that you're listening from.
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