October 16, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode, we speak to Antonia Marran. The former TV presenter, parenting author and now lawyer and advocate is tasked with managing the legacy of her late father, Antony Kidman, and his pioneering work in adolescent and youth mental health. It's a role for which the experiences of Antonia’s own life have prepared her well. She comes from a tight-knit family (including her sister, the Hollywood star Nicole Kidman), and has endured both the public heartbreak of her first marriage falling apart then the sudden death of her first husband, not to mention a mid-life love affair, the travails and joys of parenting a blended family of six children, and then finally, a late career switch to the law, where she found a sense of fulfilment that had eluded her so far. Marran talks about all of this and more in a Good Weekend feature story this week – Her Father’s Daughter. Hosting this conversation is the writer of that profile, chief reporter for The Sydney Morning Herald, Jordan Baker.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:13):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:35):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to
Antonia marron, the former journalist, parenting author and now lawyer
and advocate is tasked with managing the legacy of her
late father, Antony Kidman, a pioneer for his work in
adolescent and youth mental health. It's a role for which
the experiences of Antonia's own life have prepared her well.
(00:58):
She comes from a tight knit family, including her sister,
the Hollywood star Nicole Kidman, and she has endured both
the heartbreak of her first marriage falling apart, then the
sudden death of her first husband, not to mention a
midlife love affair. The travails and joys of parenting a
blended family of six children, and then finally that late
(01:19):
career switch to the law, where she found a sense
of career fulfilment that had eluded her so far. Maron
talks about all of this and more in a Good
Weekend feature story this week. Her father's daughter and hosting
this conversation is the writer of that profile, chief reporter
for the Sydney Morning Herald, Jordan Baker.
S2 (01:41):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Antonia Kidman to Good Weekend Talks.
It's lovely to have you.
S3 (01:46):
Thanks, Jordan. Good to be here.
S2 (01:48):
Now, I you just gave me a photograph of yourself
and your dad. This would be probably early 70s, I imagine.
S3 (01:56):
I think I'm probably about 7 or 8 there. So 77, 78.
And it looks as though it's at the Blue Mountains.
I can't remember when it was taken, but he looks
he's what's he got on a leather jacket and I've
got a parka on. He looks quite funky.
S2 (02:13):
And so I mean the story we're running a weekend.
Is this piece about your father's work, Antony Kidman, you know,
a pioneering psychologist in Australia, also pioneered a lot of
psychological approaches like cognitive behaviour therapy in Australia, but also
adolescent psychology in particular. So the center he founded, the
Kidman Center, is 40 years old this year, and you
(02:36):
are on the board kind of really sort of taking
up his legacy and continuing it, which is the theme
of the story. Um, and this photograph shows you sort
of looking to the side, looking very much like you
do now, you know, the same nose, same smile, um, uh,
long brown hair. And your dad? We seen a lot
(02:59):
of pictures of your dad, obviously, when he's a bit older.
But this one, I haven't actually seen one of him
when he's, you know, in his hair, sort of fully
dark brown and and wearing this 70s singlet and the glasses. Um,
and it's a really intimate moment between the two of you.
And we discussed, too. Uh, and tell me a little
(03:20):
bit more about some of the similarities between you. Like what?
What was the bond between you and your father like?
S3 (03:25):
It was close. He was, um, a very calm person.
A very easy person to be around. He wasn't at
all demanding. So he was somebody you could really just
be yourself with. Um. And. Yeah, I liked him. We
had a good time together. He laughed a lot. I
have a strong memory. Memory of him having. Just laughing
(03:47):
a lot. He had a really good, very dry sense
of humor. He was a soft man, but he was
also strong. He was a man in that he provided
for our family and, and was a, a, um, a
centerpiece of it, a very sort of foundational. So when
he died, it sort of we were left somewhat rudderless. Um, myself, um,
(04:08):
my sister and my mother. But he was just this
interesting sort of concoction. He was a rare man. That's
how I sort of describe him, because he also had
this just intense, um, social sort of sense of social
justice and compassion that just pretty much informed everything, every
aspect of his being and his decision making. And it
(04:30):
always came through. So, yeah, that sort of in sum,
what he was. And so in that sense, he was
he was a lovely father to have had. Yeah.
S2 (04:41):
And he was, he was quite an unusual like 70s,
80s dad. Right. Because when I was speaking to Craig,
Craig was like one of the first time that Craig
met him. Um, Anthony went over to Craig when Craig
was barbecuing and was like, so, you know, tell me
a little bit about how you barbecue. Um, but you've
also described him as a feminist. He was a little
(05:01):
bit more about that. And where do you think that
came from?
S3 (05:04):
I think, uh, well, he had a very strong he
had a very strong relationship with his mother, who, uh,
pretty much raised her four children. I mean, she was
she remained married, but she was she was very much
the the person who, um, made sure that there was
food on the table and they were educated and cared for.
(05:24):
So she was sort of had an Irish Catholic background. Um,
he had a very close relationship with her. He was
the the eldest of four children, and he looked after
his siblings in that sense. Uh, and he he married
my mother to who was a feminist for her own reasons.
But yes, he was definitely a feminist in the age
(05:48):
of the 70s, when, you know, a lot of men
and a lot of women probably didn't admit to it,
but definitely not that many men. And he sort of
proudly just inherently was that, um, he was the father
of two daughters, and he was not necessarily he wasn't
a blokey man, put it that way. Not that he didn't.
He had a good circle of friends. He went to
a boys school and, you know.
S2 (06:10):
Played rugby first 15 or something. Did he ever say
he was a good wishes.
S3 (06:15):
He was a good sportsman, a good runner and all
of that. But he just he wasn't a big drinker.
He wasn't a blokey sort of guy. So he sort
of did have that sensitivity, I guess, that feminine side
to him. Um, and I guess that's why, you know,
sort of he made those decisions. He was a compassionate person,
and he sort of, you know, he was aware of,
of the underdog in every level of society. And I
(06:37):
guess women have been the underdog for many years. And
so it was only natural that he'd sort of have
that attitude.
S2 (06:44):
And you've talked to when we were discussing this about
how he was, um, he didn't seem to be self-conscious like,
hee hee. Every time I said, he kind of laughed.
He really wasn't, was he?
S3 (06:57):
No, he was not self-conscious. And I am intensely self-conscious. So, um,
it was astounding some of the things that he did. But,
you know, I mean, it's I admire people who are
not self-conscious because it must be wonderful just going through
life without having those shackles on. Um, but no, he
(07:18):
did lots of things he'd sing in front of at
a barbecue. He'd. I remember him telling me a story
when he went over to to see Doctor Ellis in
New York. Albert Ellis, who for the cognitive behavior therapy work. Um,
and as a sort of a technique, he would sort
of go on the subway and just scream and make
a loud noise just to sort of astound people and
(07:43):
see their reactions and things like that. And I still
always remember those sorts of stories and go. Goodness me,
I just cannot imagine ever doing that and liking people,
looking at me.
S2 (07:54):
And being so unself conscious that you're focusing on their
reactions and not on your own kind of reaction to
doing something like that. He sang at nursing homes, didn't he?
And he did a musical theatre.
S3 (08:04):
Later years. When he sort of had more time, he
would do that with a group. Um, they were mainly women.
I think there were some men in there, but yeah,
he would do that. He was involved with the the
amateur musical societies of on that sort of North Shore.
It was I think it was Linfield and um, not
not Willoughby, but maybe it was. Yeah, I think it
was the Linfield Musical Society. And they'd always be putting
(08:27):
on shows and things like that and no music. And
he used to have music lessons and, and recordable CDs
and things like that, which he would play and practice
and he just, he, he, he sort of was drawn
to his passions and the things that he liked to do.
And he'd do them.
S2 (08:45):
When I came to visit you to interview you a
few weeks ago. One of the things that really took
my fancy was your pianola. Because I have not seen
a pianola for ages. Tell me about. And then I
was speaking to some of your friends, like I spoke
to Annette, who grew up next to you, and I
spoke to Peter Overton. Um, and they remember these pianola nights,
(09:06):
like Christmas Eve at the Kidman's with everyone gathering around
the pianola.
S3 (09:11):
And dad would be playing it with the pedalling it
and just lathered in sweat.
S2 (09:16):
Because it's not easy, is it?
S3 (09:18):
Not easy? And singing and everyone. Yeah. Crowded around it was,
it was quite amazing because he loved music, but he
didn't learn an instrument so he could not read music.
My mother played the piano. She was educated in a
in sort of more of a sophisticated way in that sense. But, um,
(09:39):
but he loved it. And so he thought, okay, well,
how can I do this? And so he got the pianola.
And then from, I don't know, I can't remember ever
not having a pianola. So it was just his thing.
And then he became obsessed with buying all the show
tune rolls and and all the songs and stuff that
could be played. And we've still got them all. I
don't think that there's a there's a place that still
(10:00):
produces them in Australia anymore, unfortunately. But um, but we've
still got a huge, huge library of them.
S2 (10:07):
So I poked around them a bit when I was
at your house. Well, there's more.
S3 (10:11):
At Mum and Dad's too. They're still.
S2 (10:13):
Some of them are like, sort of, you know, Y.M.C.A. like,
you goes into, like 70s and 80s hits.
S3 (10:17):
Because he actually did, like, he liked 70s music, too.
He liked Janis Ian, he liked Carole King, he liked, um, yeah,
he actually did. He liked Bruce Springsteen and a lot
of music, too. So more modern music, I mean.
S2 (10:31):
So when, when you were growing up, your dad's work,
like when you were a child, your dad's work was
sort of more. Biochemistry. Yes. Medical.
S3 (10:40):
Yeah. Neuroscience. Yeah. So he used to, um, research from
my memory. He'd memory research a disease called muscular dystrophy. And, um,
and that was based at UTS. And then he moved
into and he used to do that for many years.
And then my mother got breast cancer in 85. And
(11:01):
so I can't quite remember the pivot, but he became.
But I do believe that it was connected to that.
He might have been interested in it a few years earlier,
but then he ended up pretty much segwaying into, um,
into psychology. And at that stage it was sort of
focused on stress and the impact of stress on on
(11:25):
breast cancer. He worked with her oncologist, um, and then
sort of eventually moved into sort of stress, anxiety and depression,
and particularly in the young, sort of young adult age group. Yeah.
S2 (11:40):
And so you weren't a young adult when he was
working in adolescent like he moved into that later in life. Yeah. Um,
and you would have been in mid teens maybe by
the time he actually moved into psychology. So he was.
S3 (11:53):
Yeah. He wrote his first book. I guess it would
have been. Um, so mum did a mum got breast
cancer in 85 and that's when he, I do remember
he wrote a book called tactics for change, which is
sort of like a self-help book, that it was about
organisation and writing lists and people just a general sort of,
you know, change book, I guess, to assist people dealing
(12:15):
with managing, managing their lives and, you know, all the
sort of overwhelming thoughts and things that come into place
and simplifying it. And that book ended up doing very,
very well. He self-published it, um, and he needed he
did that because they needed to make up for the
income that because mum was working three days a week
before she got breast cancer, and as soon as she
(12:37):
got breast cancer, she was like, I'm done. I'm like,
now not. I'm just focusing on trying to get, you know,
not have it recur because hers had moved at that point.
It was a stage two and she was just very
we were all very thrown by it. And so it
sort of rendered her almost. Um, yeah. She just sort
of thought, okay, I'm now looking at reducing the stress
(13:00):
of my life because I want to live.
S2 (13:03):
And did did his move into psychology kind of. Um,
were you ever the recipient of that wisdom, I suppose.
Did you ever take advantage of it?
S3 (13:12):
I did, I have all the time. Yeah, a lot, many,
many times. But I still have a lot of his
books on my shelf. And I have I can't probably
tell you. I probably haven't picked one up for a
couple of years, but they they went with me to Singapore.
And there are a couple of ones that I like.
There's one called, um, Managing Love and Hate. That's a good.
S2 (13:34):
One. Oh, okay. And there's just little.
S3 (13:35):
Tidbits and there's also quite a few on anxiety. Yeah.
And so that that works as well and just, you know,
sort of breaking things down. And I mean, the sort
of the skills that are sort of propagated in, in
don't really change in terms of what they tell you
to do from 15 years ago to now. It's basic
(13:56):
kind of stuff. It's just you've just got to be
reminded on how to apply it. Um, so yeah, I
have been totally and he was a wonderful person to
chat to about sort of issues because he would give
you a bit of an objective. Mum was wonderful and
has a lot of wisdom and was a great sort
of compass and, and a, um, a direction or force
(14:18):
in that sense. But dad was quite objective and, you know,
could just sometimes come back and, and not be so, um,
I guess invested in my outcome.
S2 (14:31):
Yeah. Right. So he was sort of would prompt you
into what. Yeah.
S3 (14:35):
Or just sometimes even listening and going. Yeah. And just reassuring, Snoring,
which is nice.
S2 (14:40):
Peter Overton actually tells the story about that. He was
at university, and he says that he was having a
bit of a crisis of, you know, direction. And his father,
who was like a, a paediatric anesthetist, professor, professor or something,
was like, okay, this is the one that Tony's going
to have to deal with. And he tells the story
of going over and talking to your father. And your
father was very kind of just supportive and sort of saying, well,
(15:02):
this is normal. You know, it's okay to feel like this,
which sometimes is what you really need to hear, isn't it?
S3 (15:07):
And I know I remember a lot of times because
he also had a lot of, you know, his journey
wasn't an easy journey. It wasn't like he was somebody
who my mother topped the class. And I'm not saying
her journey was easy, but I think I mentioned this before.
She was just naturally very smart. She was in the
OT classes. She went to Sydney Girls High. She just
(15:28):
sort of eased through things. Beautiful writer. And dad was,
you know, as accomplished. But the road for him to
he just had to work a lot harder and some
people do, and that's okay. But it's just it was
very nice. It's nice to see someone, you know, doing
what they're doing and really liking what they're doing. And
(15:50):
that person you don't have to have achieved and done
all these amazing things to be able to get there.
You can sort of get there in a in a
squiggly way. And that was really it's very nice to
hear that from people or for him, from him. It's
reassuring to go, you know, it's okay. You'll get there
in the end. It's just a different road.
S2 (16:09):
And so what kind of grandfather was he? I mean.
S3 (16:11):
Beautiful he was so he was so lovely. He loved
being a grandfather. He was there at their births. All
of them, except for Nicholas, who was born in, in, um, Singapore.
But he would have been. And people were always like, God,
you had your father at your birth. And it sounds odd,
but it actually it actually wasn't. Um.
S2 (16:32):
And your mum's a midwife, wasn't she?
S3 (16:33):
So she was. Yeah. And she, she, um, so they
kind of like. But dad just. He loves. He was
very calm with them. Really able to just, you know,
available to, um, but and and really enjoyed them. And
he had a very close relationship with Sabella, who's number four.
And she was born, you know, um, pretty much three
(16:56):
days after I split up with, with her dad. So, um,
my dad was really, really close with her, and that
was very hard on her, actually, when he died so
suddenly because he died very suddenly. Then her father died
very suddenly six months later. So she sort of got
quite a slam in that respect.
S2 (17:23):
You have six children. Yeah, which is quite a lot
of children by today's standards. But you said you always
wanted a big tribe of.
S3 (17:31):
I did, I wanted at least four. So. Yeah. And
because I got remarried, I got to have two more.
Which was good.
S2 (17:39):
And you said that that was sort of almost inspired
by living next door to the Overtons with their four kids.
S3 (17:44):
I did. I liked the noise and the and the, um,
you know, not so much the case because our house
is is ordered because I like order. Not ridiculous order,
but reasonable. I'm not saying their house was not chaotic.
I'm not saying the house was chaotic. It wasn't. But
I like the noise and just the the vibrancy of
lots of people around, and I just do. And so
(18:07):
I always have. So I was always going to have
more than two. I just don't like quiet, I hate quiet.
Even now I like to have some. I honestly don't
mind living in an urban environment because I like the
street noise and sound and.
S2 (18:19):
Yeah, and the buzz.
S3 (18:20):
The buzz. Yeah, and you can get that in the
bush too, because there's so much noise in the bush.
S2 (18:24):
There's a lot of birds singing very early at the moment. Um,
so the, but a lot of people might dream of
having big family, but when they actually have the baby,
It's not quite what they dreamed of, and they might
not want to go. I have so many. But you
liked having babies. I did.
S3 (18:41):
Yeah. I loved it, and the first time, the first
baby I had, I remember just after the birth. The next.
I don't know. She was born at, um, 4:00 or
something in the afternoon, so. And then. Oh my gosh.
Just going wow. And just looking at her, I just
it was so transformative for me, that first child. It
(19:02):
was wonderful. And I, um. Yeah. And I just that
love and the devotion and suddenly also having her look
at me and I suddenly was like, oh my God.
I grew up then. Not that I was a baby,
but I was like, I have to be the best
person I can be because this little girl depends on me.
She she thinks that I'm everything. And it just, um. Yeah,
(19:25):
it just changed me in that sense. Yeah. And I
loved it. And I couldn't wait to have more.
S2 (19:31):
And have you loved? Have you loved that experience with
all the children? Like, does it change over time?
S3 (19:37):
No, I've loved it with all of them. And the
only thing that makes me a bit sad is knowing
that it's sort of. It does. It does end. Uh, yeah. No,
I've loved it with all of them. And I like, um,
I like watching them interact with each other, too. I
like their bond. They've all lived together, um, with us. So,
(19:58):
you know, they're very strong and they're very tight. And
it's the saddest thing for me would be if that fractured.
I just couldn't bear it.
S2 (20:07):
Is there something that you can do as a parent
to make to try? Because. Because you and your sister
are very, very close.
S3 (20:12):
Yeah we are.
S2 (20:13):
Is there something that, you know, as a parent, you
can do to help your children become particularly close? I'm
not saying that I have my children are constantly fighting
at the moment and it's driving me mad. But like,
you know, I'm keen for any advice on this.
S3 (20:25):
I mean, we fought when we lived together, Nick and I,
as kids, And we stop fighting when she moved out
and then I moved out kind of thing. I just
think that as soon and I've noticed that with our kids. Um,
I don't know.
S2 (20:41):
Is it kind of inevitable that they're going to fight?
S3 (20:43):
Yeah, I noticed it. Okay. Yeah. Because people are fighting
at my house now, like, a lot. Um, but it's
because it's rivalry. It's a.
S2 (20:51):
Jungle, a jungle. That's exactly right.
S3 (20:55):
And they're just all jostling for position, and da da
da da. And once they're out of the home, they
don't have to do that. But they still do jostle,
I think, like you've got to be. Mum actually said
to me, you know, I was always like, well if
you she just said, everything's kind of got to be
equal with all of them. I'm like, well really? And
she said, yes, it has to be equal. And I
(21:16):
think I believe her now.
S2 (21:17):
Yeah, right. Um, because otherwise what they'll remember.
S3 (21:20):
Yeah. And they actually tell each other stuff too, which
I was surprised about.
S2 (21:26):
It's like a it's like a Parliament house. Yeah.
S3 (21:29):
They'll be like, well, I got this. And then someone said, well,
you gave that to that, to that person. I'm like,
oh God, okay.
S2 (21:34):
I remember reading something like in one of those books
about the fair fairy and the fairies trying to be fair.
And then the kids are complaining and the fairy ends
up exploding from her attempts to be fair. And I
really related to that fairy. Um. Do you is there
are there periods that you really like? Uh, because I mean,
obviously some of your children are adults now. I think
youngest is 12. Is that correct? Yeah. Like, are there
(21:56):
parenting periods that you like more than other periods? Like
I remember saying when we were talking the other day
that you couldn't really do another toddler after that.
S3 (22:03):
No, I think, uh, yeah. I think I found sort
of from 18 months to three. Tricky because there's walking
and movement, but no very little reasoning like they're cute.
But when you're parenting them and looking after them and
they're just a lot, it's tiring. They're strong and you're
trying to get them in the car seat and the
(22:24):
this and the that. If you're in a hurry, you
sort of just. Yeah. So it's I found I find
that a bit trying, but I must say, as I
got older, I got better with that because I just
resigned myself to it. Like, yeah, I'm not going to
try and control it too much. And I also had
Craig with the older two and he's a different sort
(22:44):
of person. Strong didn't really worry about toddler tantrums and
things like that. Was happy to just take him on.
Whereas I used to sort of try to wrestle with
them and I just found it exhausting actually, physically and mentally,
but cute, but just, oh my God, I love that
afternoon sleep. No one's taking that away from me ever.
(23:07):
You know, when you're when you're parenting a toddler, it's like,
I'm not going anywhere at 2:00.
S2 (23:12):
I know people think you're too rigid and you're like, sorry. No. Yeah.
S3 (23:16):
And people are in bed at seven.
S2 (23:20):
And are there any other periods that you sort of
struggled with?
S3 (23:23):
Um, I then I just think that teenage kind of age. Actually,
now where we are, where it's like we've got a
so that 14 year old age because they see all
the they're not 16. Yeah. So they can't really there's
not parties. And I mean they don't have a huge amount.
I mean they've got some independence. They can't work either.
(23:43):
But they want to be doing a lot of things
like that. So they're rendered a little bit. They're just
between a rock and a hard place. Um, and they're
separating from you. So they're kind of. They don't really.
They say you say something's right. They say it's black
just because. So I find that a little harder. But see,
we've got two boys at home now, so I don't
(24:04):
probably feel it as much as Craig. I think there's
a gender thing that's different, right? I feel more with
the girls.
S2 (24:12):
Yeah, right.
S3 (24:12):
Yeah. Because they're just. Oh, mum. Whereas the boys are like,
I'm not really, you know, sort of on their in
their zone anyway. My relationship with them, with them is
a bit different. Whereas I think Craig feels that a
bit at the moment. And that's the thing I know
is that look there, she's 26, she's about to be 27.
(24:36):
Someone's about to turn 20. Hamish is 25 and James
is 22, and Seb's just gone to a Anu. So
it's like they go. So you've got to actually have
stuff for yourself because they are going to go.
S2 (24:48):
And is that one lesson you sort of learned over
the six like that? Maybe you just, you know, that
that sort of sense of acceptance. Yes. That when they
reach that age, that.
S3 (24:57):
And it's really sad and there's grief and all of that,
but it's just, I mean, I look at me now,
I mean, my parents aren't around, but three years ago
or something, I still wasn't, you know, you living your life,
it's inevitable that that's going to happen. We all live
our lives. You. It just changes. I'm looking forward to grandchildren.
S2 (25:17):
Yes.
S3 (25:19):
Um. But that's why I like to have my job.
S2 (25:22):
And so let's move on to that, actually, because I
could talk about you, about parenting all day. I mean,
you you've written parenting books. You've done some shows on
Foxtel from here to maternity. Um, the weekend editor was saying,
I think I shared this with you, that your, your
book about fussy eating was like her Bible when her
daughter was refusing to eat anything but the space you've
(25:42):
moved into now, both at the Kidman Foundation and in
family law, is kind of tied in a way to
that expertise that you've built up as a mother, which
is in family law. I mean, obviously, um, there's all
sorts of things that go on in family law, but, but,
but you're particularly interested in sort of high conflict matters
(26:04):
and parenting matters. Talk me through a little bit more
about what you do as a both as a lawyer
but also as a parenting coordinator.
S3 (26:11):
Yeah. Well, family law is that it's that sort of
I was drawn to it because it's an area of
law where there's a strong, uh, human connection. So I
just like being involved with people at that really terrible,
difficult stage in their lives, um, where, you know, the
two centrepieces, I guess, of, of, of your life, which
(26:34):
is your finances and your and your children are sort
of in dispute, so to speak. And so connecting with
people at that point is, is very, very satisfying because
you can allow them or assist them to sort of
come up with some sort of a solution to their
(26:55):
problems with. But within the context, the legal context, not
necessarily in a moral context or a what's fair context
from a personal point of view, but in a legal
context and therefore, you know, advising them or informing them
on that and then allowing them to make their decisions
(27:15):
based on that. And it's because it's often it's very different,
you know, what you can obtain or what's reality in
a legal sense is very different to what a person
thinks they're entitled to or expects, or perhaps thinks they're
not entitled to is often as as frequently the case.
So I love that process. And it's a long as
(27:38):
you said, it's big. There's so many elements to it.
And I work in a big firm, um, which, you know,
we have a we have a lot of very, very
wide and varied matters that that span the spectrum. So,
so there's that aspect. And then there's um, parenting coordination is,
is not where you're advocating for one party, so to speak.
(28:01):
It's more where you're sitting in the middle. It's a
newish kind of approach that's come out of the US.
They use it a lot in South Africa too, and
it's um, it's whereby people who have orders or a
parenting plan in place and they need to implement those
particular aspects of the orders, because the orders aren't going
(28:21):
to be prescriptive for every single situation or circumstance, and
they're fighting over that, rather than going back to lawyers
and throwing letters left, right and center and maybe making
a contravention application in the court or some other kind
of application, it's like, okay, well, let's sit and let's
work out how to resolve this. Um, that's what the
(28:42):
parenting coordination does. So it sort of. Yeah. So, so
you can put in and that's where you can put
in your practical sense the wisdom of experience. You just
need to have that, that sort of real, sort of grounded, um,
volume of, of expertise, I think, to be able to
do that kind of work. Yeah.
S2 (29:01):
And so, um, your mum had said to you, you know,
it's important to have something for yourself. You've learned that
as your kids leave home.
S3 (29:12):
Um, and my family lawyer actually said it to me.
S2 (29:15):
Yeah, right.
S3 (29:16):
And I that's why I like family law. It's just,
I mean, I still go back to things that she
said to me. And. Yeah, she just said, always keep
your hand in it. When I told her I was
moving to Singapore and she said, you know, you just
you just need to keep your hand in it in
some kind of work. I mean, and so that's. Yeah.
And that just rang with me and mum when dad
died was like, I was like, why am I doing
(29:39):
this stupid autograph? I find it so hard at times.
And she was like, cos you're doing it because you
need to have something afterwards, because I don't and I
wish I did.
S2 (29:50):
So she regretted that did she. Yeah. Yeah.
S3 (29:52):
Right. Yeah.
S2 (29:53):
Laura's been a real passion discovery for you.
S3 (29:56):
Yeah it has, it has because I like, um. Well,
I like the intellectual side of it. I like the, the, um, I,
you know, there's performance to it. There's, um, there's engagement
with people I just like, I love interacting with people
I like. I like the journalism part because I like
knowing people's stories and helping them find it. Um, yeah,
(30:17):
it's it just I thrive on it, so. And but
I also like the writing side, too. I like sort
of telling people's stories, which is what you're doing a
lot in, in, you know, drafting of documents and so on. Um,
the one thing I probably don't love that sort of the,
the adversarial nature of it. So but in family law, it's,
(30:40):
it's designed not to be adversarial or to, to limit
that adversarial aspect in that, you know, there's a lot
of pre-action procedures that funnel people into mediations and really
focusing on resolving their disputes without getting to court. Um, so,
so that's there's there's a strong sort of area of
(31:01):
it that that doesn't have to be adversarial. So, yeah,
I just don't like that. Yeah. That's sort of yeah,
I wouldn't be very good at the bar.
S2 (31:11):
So no plans.
S3 (31:11):
To go to the bar.
S2 (31:14):
For the rest of your life about that exam. Um,
and let's come to finally, the Kidman Foundation.
S3 (31:21):
Yeah.
S2 (31:21):
So your dad founded the Kidman Center 40 years ago.
It wasn't called Kidman Center. Then. It only became got
that name after he died.
S3 (31:29):
It was called the Foundation for Life Sciences. Yeah.
S2 (31:31):
But he sort of pioneered this idea of academics actually
also then raising money for their research, which is a
thing he got in the US. And I, Dick Smith,
who I also spoke to for the um, was was
the first donor, I think, to the Kidman Center. Yes.
Back when the muscular dystrophy study was happening. Yeah. Um, now.
So Kidman, center, has the Kidman Foundation, is the fundraising arm,
(31:55):
and you and your husband Craig are now on the
board of that. So tell me a little bit about
about the work that that the Kidman Center does, because
it's very adolescent, sort of youth focused. Well, a bullying work.
Rachel Murray, who's the director, is telling me.
S3 (32:10):
So they have lots of different programs and and there's
one that's about to be launched in mid September, mid
November at Parliament House, which is the super powers that
PS is fronting. Peter Overton and Jessica are fronting up,
but I guess it's um, there's many levels to it.
So there's one on one programs and obviously psychological therapies and,
(32:34):
and supports. And then there's sort of that regional thrive
X aspect to it where they go out, they send
psychologists out into the regional areas to educate teachers, um,
on how to, you know, respond and identify at risk
children with the sort of the idea that if you
(32:57):
can intervene early enough, there's a lot more chance of,
you know, putting in some therapeutic measures and forms of
supports to, uh, allow children then to respond and have
a better outcome. And also because there's not that many
psychologists in regional areas. So it's sort of like educating teachers.
And I know teachers have a huge amount on them anyway,
(33:17):
but it's just to be able to to manage and
identify these sorts of at risk kids that we have
that teachers do here in the, in the, um, in
the city regions. But but not necessarily in those countries,
in remote areas. Um, so there's that aspect and then
there's all that whole swathe of programs and there. Yeah.
So it's a, you know, it's, it's a very um,
(33:40):
and super powers will be a digital platform that's, you know,
available to anyone that's free. Uh, and it allows you
just to so you're not sort of in crisis. The
person's not in crisis, but it's the struggling parent who's
sort of got a child, you know, they don't quite
(34:00):
know what to do. You can you can, um, go
online and get some information, a little sort of, um,
snapshot pieces of, um, digital material and it's useful that way.
So yeah, it's it's designed I mean, the whole sort
of ethos of the place, I guess, is to deliver
services to people to assist them who are struggling with
(34:22):
managing their kids.
S2 (34:23):
I had a look at this super parenting powers thing.
I've done one module already, but it's it's really good.
It's very modern and it sort of it's all about
helping you connect with your children. So when that there
is a problem that comes up with them, they're much
more comfortable with talking to you about it. You kind
of have a better sense of how to respond rather than,
you know.
S3 (34:42):
Freaking.
S2 (34:43):
Out really quick. And yeah.
S3 (34:44):
And giving you that idea of what's what's okay, what
you do. Because we get so scared. Like you go,
oh my God, this is I've heard this is happening
to my kid and you don't know the context to
put it in. It's like, well then do I just
ban everything, you know, and you need that sort of
reassurance or the reassurance to go, yeah, actually, you know,
(35:06):
taking that approach is okay. You do need to put
up some strong boundaries. And you should be now, because
it's enough so that that's very that's sort of I've
got that from my I mean I just had that
fortunately from my parents not saying that, but it's, you know,
a lot of in this day and age it's very
hard to know what to do. We get so much,
(35:27):
we get bombarded with information. And we also live in
this sort of, you know, fear of your kid's going
to end up like that kid on the show in adolescence.
S2 (35:38):
So because we all watched that in horror, I know
I haven't had to watch it, to be honest. I'm
still gearing up for that one, but it must be
nice to be able to steward your father's work.
S3 (35:53):
Yes.
S2 (35:53):
Is that that must be very.
S3 (35:55):
Really nice, actually. And because he died when, um, in Singapore.
So I remember, like, looking at him and just going, oh, man.
You know, it still was. I was still obviously in shock,
but just going and it's, you know, I've got a
I'm gonna just honor you in some shape or form.
(36:15):
I'm moving forward and and I think this is my
way of doing it. Yeah. I mean, we haven't, um.
We still have his ashes. We'll we'll scatter them. Nicole
and I still will. We will scatter them. And my mother's, um, soon,
and we know where we will, but, um, but it's
just that that in itself, it keeps him alive. Because,
(36:39):
you know, one thing we all know about death is,
is if you're dead, unless people remember you and talk
about you. Otherwise, it's just vapor. So. Yeah.
S2 (36:50):
Well, Antonio, it has been delightful talking to you. I really,
really appreciate your time. I hope everybody reads the magazine
and has a look at super parent powers and the
work of the Kidman Center.
S3 (37:01):
Thank you so much, Jordan.
S1 (37:04):
That was Antonio Marin, the journalist, author, lawyer and now
mental health advocate about the lasting legacy of her father
Anthony on the latest Good Weekend talks. If you enjoyed
this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever
you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more
compelling conversations. Coming soon, we chat with the legendary Ita Buttrose,
(37:27):
the trailblazing media icon who, at 83, remains as sharp
and opinionated as ever. Good Weekend Talks is brought to
you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age proud
newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe
Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall, with technical assistance
(37:51):
from Kai Wong and editing from Tim Mummery. Our executive
producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio
and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:35):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to
Antonia marron, the former journalist, parenting author and now lawyer
and advocate is tasked with managing the legacy of her
late father, Antony Kidman, a pioneer for his work in
adolescent and youth mental health. It's a role for which
the experiences of Antonia's own life have prepared her well.
(00:58):
She comes from a tight knit family, including her sister,
the Hollywood star Nicole Kidman, and she has endured both
the heartbreak of her first marriage falling apart, then the
sudden death of her first husband, not to mention a
midlife love affair. The travails and joys of parenting a
blended family of six children, and then finally that late
(01:19):
career switch to the law, where she found a sense
of career fulfilment that had eluded her so far. Maron
talks about all of this and more in a Good
Weekend feature story this week. Her father's daughter and hosting
this conversation is the writer of that profile, chief reporter
for the Sydney Morning Herald, Jordan Baker.
S2 (01:41):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Antonia Kidman to Good Weekend Talks.
It's lovely to have you.
S3 (01:46):
Thanks, Jordan. Good to be here.
S2 (01:48):
Now, I you just gave me a photograph of yourself
and your dad. This would be probably early 70s, I imagine.
S3 (01:56):
I think I'm probably about 7 or 8 there. So 77, 78.
And it looks as though it's at the Blue Mountains.
I can't remember when it was taken, but he looks
he's what's he got on a leather jacket and I've
got a parka on. He looks quite funky.
S2 (02:13):
And so I mean the story we're running a weekend.
Is this piece about your father's work, Antony Kidman, you know,
a pioneering psychologist in Australia, also pioneered a lot of
psychological approaches like cognitive behaviour therapy in Australia, but also
adolescent psychology in particular. So the center he founded, the
Kidman Center, is 40 years old this year, and you
(02:36):
are on the board kind of really sort of taking
up his legacy and continuing it, which is the theme
of the story. Um, and this photograph shows you sort
of looking to the side, looking very much like you
do now, you know, the same nose, same smile, um, uh,
long brown hair. And your dad? We seen a lot
(02:59):
of pictures of your dad, obviously, when he's a bit older.
But this one, I haven't actually seen one of him
when he's, you know, in his hair, sort of fully
dark brown and and wearing this 70s singlet and the glasses. Um,
and it's a really intimate moment between the two of you.
And we discussed, too. Uh, and tell me a little
(03:20):
bit more about some of the similarities between you. Like what?
What was the bond between you and your father like?
S3 (03:25):
It was close. He was, um, a very calm person.
A very easy person to be around. He wasn't at
all demanding. So he was somebody you could really just
be yourself with. Um. And. Yeah, I liked him. We
had a good time together. He laughed a lot. I
have a strong memory. Memory of him having. Just laughing
(03:47):
a lot. He had a really good, very dry sense
of humor. He was a soft man, but he was
also strong. He was a man in that he provided
for our family and, and was a, a, um, a
centerpiece of it, a very sort of foundational. So when
he died, it sort of we were left somewhat rudderless. Um, myself, um,
(04:08):
my sister and my mother. But he was just this
interesting sort of concoction. He was a rare man. That's
how I sort of describe him, because he also had
this just intense, um, social sort of sense of social
justice and compassion that just pretty much informed everything, every
aspect of his being and his decision making. And it
(04:30):
always came through. So, yeah, that sort of in sum,
what he was. And so in that sense, he was
he was a lovely father to have had. Yeah.
S2 (04:41):
And he was, he was quite an unusual like 70s,
80s dad. Right. Because when I was speaking to Craig,
Craig was like one of the first time that Craig
met him. Um, Anthony went over to Craig when Craig
was barbecuing and was like, so, you know, tell me
a little bit about how you barbecue. Um, but you've
also described him as a feminist. He was a little
(05:01):
bit more about that. And where do you think that
came from?
S3 (05:04):
I think, uh, well, he had a very strong he
had a very strong relationship with his mother, who, uh,
pretty much raised her four children. I mean, she was
she remained married, but she was she was very much
the the person who, um, made sure that there was
food on the table and they were educated and cared for.
(05:24):
So she was sort of had an Irish Catholic background. Um,
he had a very close relationship with her. He was
the the eldest of four children, and he looked after
his siblings in that sense. Uh, and he he married
my mother to who was a feminist for her own reasons.
But yes, he was definitely a feminist in the age
(05:48):
of the 70s, when, you know, a lot of men
and a lot of women probably didn't admit to it,
but definitely not that many men. And he sort of
proudly just inherently was that, um, he was the father
of two daughters, and he was not necessarily he wasn't
a blokey man, put it that way. Not that he didn't.
He had a good circle of friends. He went to
a boys school and, you know.
S2 (06:10):
Played rugby first 15 or something. Did he ever say
he was a good wishes.
S3 (06:15):
He was a good sportsman, a good runner and all
of that. But he just he wasn't a big drinker.
He wasn't a blokey sort of guy. So he sort
of did have that sensitivity, I guess, that feminine side
to him. Um, and I guess that's why, you know,
sort of he made those decisions. He was a compassionate person,
and he sort of, you know, he was aware of,
of the underdog in every level of society. And I
(06:37):
guess women have been the underdog for many years. And
so it was only natural that he'd sort of have
that attitude.
S2 (06:44):
And you've talked to when we were discussing this about
how he was, um, he didn't seem to be self-conscious like,
hee hee. Every time I said, he kind of laughed.
He really wasn't, was he?
S3 (06:57):
No, he was not self-conscious. And I am intensely self-conscious. So, um,
it was astounding some of the things that he did. But,
you know, I mean, it's I admire people who are
not self-conscious because it must be wonderful just going through
life without having those shackles on. Um, but no, he
(07:18):
did lots of things he'd sing in front of at
a barbecue. He'd. I remember him telling me a story
when he went over to to see Doctor Ellis in
New York. Albert Ellis, who for the cognitive behavior therapy work. Um,
and as a sort of a technique, he would sort
of go on the subway and just scream and make
a loud noise just to sort of astound people and
(07:43):
see their reactions and things like that. And I still
always remember those sorts of stories and go. Goodness me,
I just cannot imagine ever doing that and liking people,
looking at me.
S2 (07:54):
And being so unself conscious that you're focusing on their
reactions and not on your own kind of reaction to
doing something like that. He sang at nursing homes, didn't he?
And he did a musical theatre.
S3 (08:04):
Later years. When he sort of had more time, he
would do that with a group. Um, they were mainly women.
I think there were some men in there, but yeah,
he would do that. He was involved with the the
amateur musical societies of on that sort of North Shore.
It was I think it was Linfield and um, not
not Willoughby, but maybe it was. Yeah, I think it
was the Linfield Musical Society. And they'd always be putting
(08:27):
on shows and things like that and no music. And
he used to have music lessons and, and recordable CDs
and things like that, which he would play and practice
and he just, he, he, he sort of was drawn
to his passions and the things that he liked to do.
And he'd do them.
S2 (08:45):
When I came to visit you to interview you a
few weeks ago. One of the things that really took
my fancy was your pianola. Because I have not seen
a pianola for ages. Tell me about. And then I
was speaking to some of your friends, like I spoke
to Annette, who grew up next to you, and I
spoke to Peter Overton. Um, and they remember these pianola nights,
(09:06):
like Christmas Eve at the Kidman's with everyone gathering around
the pianola.
S3 (09:11):
And dad would be playing it with the pedalling it
and just lathered in sweat.
S2 (09:16):
Because it's not easy, is it?
S3 (09:18):
Not easy? And singing and everyone. Yeah. Crowded around it was,
it was quite amazing because he loved music, but he
didn't learn an instrument so he could not read music.
My mother played the piano. She was educated in a
in sort of more of a sophisticated way in that sense. But, um,
(09:39):
but he loved it. And so he thought, okay, well,
how can I do this? And so he got the pianola.
And then from, I don't know, I can't remember ever
not having a pianola. So it was just his thing.
And then he became obsessed with buying all the show
tune rolls and and all the songs and stuff that
could be played. And we've still got them all. I
don't think that there's a there's a place that still
(10:00):
produces them in Australia anymore, unfortunately. But um, but we've
still got a huge, huge library of them.
S2 (10:07):
So I poked around them a bit when I was
at your house. Well, there's more.
S3 (10:11):
At Mum and Dad's too. They're still.
S2 (10:13):
Some of them are like, sort of, you know, Y.M.C.A. like,
you goes into, like 70s and 80s hits.
S3 (10:17):
Because he actually did, like, he liked 70s music, too.
He liked Janis Ian, he liked Carole King, he liked, um, yeah,
he actually did. He liked Bruce Springsteen and a lot
of music, too. So more modern music, I mean.
S2 (10:31):
So when, when you were growing up, your dad's work,
like when you were a child, your dad's work was
sort of more. Biochemistry. Yes. Medical.
S3 (10:40):
Yeah. Neuroscience. Yeah. So he used to, um, research from
my memory. He'd memory research a disease called muscular dystrophy. And, um,
and that was based at UTS. And then he moved
into and he used to do that for many years.
And then my mother got breast cancer in 85. And
(11:01):
so I can't quite remember the pivot, but he became.
But I do believe that it was connected to that.
He might have been interested in it a few years earlier,
but then he ended up pretty much segwaying into, um,
into psychology. And at that stage it was sort of
focused on stress and the impact of stress on on
(11:25):
breast cancer. He worked with her oncologist, um, and then
sort of eventually moved into sort of stress, anxiety and depression,
and particularly in the young, sort of young adult age group. Yeah.
S2 (11:40):
And so you weren't a young adult when he was
working in adolescent like he moved into that later in life. Yeah. Um,
and you would have been in mid teens maybe by
the time he actually moved into psychology. So he was.
S3 (11:53):
Yeah. He wrote his first book. I guess it would
have been. Um, so mum did a mum got breast
cancer in 85 and that's when he, I do remember
he wrote a book called tactics for change, which is
sort of like a self-help book, that it was about
organisation and writing lists and people just a general sort of,
you know, change book, I guess, to assist people dealing
(12:15):
with managing, managing their lives and, you know, all the
sort of overwhelming thoughts and things that come into place
and simplifying it. And that book ended up doing very,
very well. He self-published it, um, and he needed he
did that because they needed to make up for the
income that because mum was working three days a week
before she got breast cancer, and as soon as she
(12:37):
got breast cancer, she was like, I'm done. I'm like,
now not. I'm just focusing on trying to get, you know,
not have it recur because hers had moved at that point.
It was a stage two and she was just very
we were all very thrown by it. And so it
sort of rendered her almost. Um, yeah. She just sort
of thought, okay, I'm now looking at reducing the stress
(13:00):
of my life because I want to live.
S2 (13:03):
And did did his move into psychology kind of. Um,
were you ever the recipient of that wisdom, I suppose.
Did you ever take advantage of it?
S3 (13:12):
I did, I have all the time. Yeah, a lot, many,
many times. But I still have a lot of his
books on my shelf. And I have I can't probably
tell you. I probably haven't picked one up for a
couple of years, but they they went with me to Singapore.
And there are a couple of ones that I like.
There's one called, um, Managing Love and Hate. That's a good.
S2 (13:34):
One. Oh, okay. And there's just little.
S3 (13:35):
Tidbits and there's also quite a few on anxiety. Yeah.
And so that that works as well and just, you know,
sort of breaking things down. And I mean, the sort
of the skills that are sort of propagated in, in
don't really change in terms of what they tell you
to do from 15 years ago to now. It's basic
(13:56):
kind of stuff. It's just you've just got to be
reminded on how to apply it. Um, so yeah, I
have been totally and he was a wonderful person to
chat to about sort of issues because he would give
you a bit of an objective. Mum was wonderful and
has a lot of wisdom and was a great sort
of compass and, and a, um, a direction or force
(14:18):
in that sense. But dad was quite objective and, you know,
could just sometimes come back and, and not be so, um,
I guess invested in my outcome.
S2 (14:31):
Yeah. Right. So he was sort of would prompt you
into what. Yeah.
S3 (14:35):
Or just sometimes even listening and going. Yeah. And just reassuring, Snoring,
which is nice.
S2 (14:40):
Peter Overton actually tells the story about that. He was
at university, and he says that he was having a
bit of a crisis of, you know, direction. And his father,
who was like a, a paediatric anesthetist, professor, professor or something,
was like, okay, this is the one that Tony's going
to have to deal with. And he tells the story
of going over and talking to your father. And your
father was very kind of just supportive and sort of saying, well,
(15:02):
this is normal. You know, it's okay to feel like this,
which sometimes is what you really need to hear, isn't it?
S3 (15:07):
And I know I remember a lot of times because
he also had a lot of, you know, his journey
wasn't an easy journey. It wasn't like he was somebody
who my mother topped the class. And I'm not saying
her journey was easy, but I think I mentioned this before.
She was just naturally very smart. She was in the
OT classes. She went to Sydney Girls High. She just
(15:28):
sort of eased through things. Beautiful writer. And dad was,
you know, as accomplished. But the road for him to
he just had to work a lot harder and some
people do, and that's okay. But it's just it was
very nice. It's nice to see someone, you know, doing
what they're doing and really liking what they're doing. And
(15:50):
that person you don't have to have achieved and done
all these amazing things to be able to get there.
You can sort of get there in a in a
squiggly way. And that was really it's very nice to
hear that from people or for him, from him. It's
reassuring to go, you know, it's okay. You'll get there
in the end. It's just a different road.
S2 (16:09):
And so what kind of grandfather was he? I mean.
S3 (16:11):
Beautiful he was so he was so lovely. He loved
being a grandfather. He was there at their births. All
of them, except for Nicholas, who was born in, in, um, Singapore.
But he would have been. And people were always like, God,
you had your father at your birth. And it sounds odd,
but it actually it actually wasn't. Um.
S2 (16:32):
And your mum's a midwife, wasn't she?
S3 (16:33):
So she was. Yeah. And she, she, um, so they
kind of like. But dad just. He loves. He was
very calm with them. Really able to just, you know,
available to, um, but and and really enjoyed them. And
he had a very close relationship with Sabella, who's number four.
And she was born, you know, um, pretty much three
(16:56):
days after I split up with, with her dad. So, um,
my dad was really, really close with her, and that
was very hard on her, actually, when he died so
suddenly because he died very suddenly. Then her father died
very suddenly six months later. So she sort of got
quite a slam in that respect.
S2 (17:23):
You have six children. Yeah, which is quite a lot
of children by today's standards. But you said you always
wanted a big tribe of.
S3 (17:31):
I did, I wanted at least four. So. Yeah. And
because I got remarried, I got to have two more.
Which was good.
S2 (17:39):
And you said that that was sort of almost inspired
by living next door to the Overtons with their four kids.
S3 (17:44):
I did. I liked the noise and the and the, um,
you know, not so much the case because our house
is is ordered because I like order. Not ridiculous order,
but reasonable. I'm not saying their house was not chaotic.
I'm not saying the house was chaotic. It wasn't. But
I like the noise and just the the vibrancy of
lots of people around, and I just do. And so
(18:07):
I always have. So I was always going to have
more than two. I just don't like quiet, I hate quiet.
Even now I like to have some. I honestly don't
mind living in an urban environment because I like the
street noise and sound and.
S2 (18:19):
Yeah, and the buzz.
S3 (18:20):
The buzz. Yeah, and you can get that in the
bush too, because there's so much noise in the bush.
S2 (18:24):
There's a lot of birds singing very early at the moment. Um,
so the, but a lot of people might dream of
having big family, but when they actually have the baby,
It's not quite what they dreamed of, and they might
not want to go. I have so many. But you
liked having babies. I did.
S3 (18:41):
Yeah. I loved it, and the first time, the first
baby I had, I remember just after the birth. The next.
I don't know. She was born at, um, 4:00 or
something in the afternoon, so. And then. Oh my gosh.
Just going wow. And just looking at her, I just
it was so transformative for me, that first child. It
(19:02):
was wonderful. And I, um. Yeah. And I just that
love and the devotion and suddenly also having her look
at me and I suddenly was like, oh my God.
I grew up then. Not that I was a baby,
but I was like, I have to be the best
person I can be because this little girl depends on me.
She she thinks that I'm everything. And it just, um. Yeah,
(19:25):
it just changed me in that sense. Yeah. And I
loved it. And I couldn't wait to have more.
S2 (19:31):
And have you loved? Have you loved that experience with
all the children? Like, does it change over time?
S3 (19:37):
No, I've loved it with all of them. And the
only thing that makes me a bit sad is knowing
that it's sort of. It does. It does end. Uh, yeah. No,
I've loved it with all of them. And I like, um,
I like watching them interact with each other, too. I
like their bond. They've all lived together, um, with us. So,
(19:58):
you know, they're very strong and they're very tight. And
it's the saddest thing for me would be if that fractured.
I just couldn't bear it.
S2 (20:07):
Is there something that you can do as a parent
to make to try? Because. Because you and your sister
are very, very close.
S3 (20:12):
Yeah we are.
S2 (20:13):
Is there something that, you know, as a parent, you
can do to help your children become particularly close? I'm
not saying that I have my children are constantly fighting
at the moment and it's driving me mad. But like,
you know, I'm keen for any advice on this.
S3 (20:25):
I mean, we fought when we lived together, Nick and I,
as kids, And we stop fighting when she moved out
and then I moved out kind of thing. I just
think that as soon and I've noticed that with our kids. Um,
I don't know.
S2 (20:41):
Is it kind of inevitable that they're going to fight?
S3 (20:43):
Yeah, I noticed it. Okay. Yeah. Because people are fighting
at my house now, like, a lot. Um, but it's
because it's rivalry. It's a.
S2 (20:51):
Jungle, a jungle. That's exactly right.
S3 (20:55):
And they're just all jostling for position, and da da
da da. And once they're out of the home, they
don't have to do that. But they still do jostle,
I think, like you've got to be. Mum actually said
to me, you know, I was always like, well if
you she just said, everything's kind of got to be
equal with all of them. I'm like, well really? And
she said, yes, it has to be equal. And I
(21:16):
think I believe her now.
S2 (21:17):
Yeah, right. Um, because otherwise what they'll remember.
S3 (21:20):
Yeah. And they actually tell each other stuff too, which
I was surprised about.
S2 (21:26):
It's like a it's like a Parliament house. Yeah.
S3 (21:29):
They'll be like, well, I got this. And then someone said, well,
you gave that to that, to that person. I'm like,
oh God, okay.
S2 (21:34):
I remember reading something like in one of those books
about the fair fairy and the fairies trying to be fair.
And then the kids are complaining and the fairy ends
up exploding from her attempts to be fair. And I
really related to that fairy. Um. Do you is there
are there periods that you really like? Uh, because I mean,
obviously some of your children are adults now. I think
youngest is 12. Is that correct? Yeah. Like, are there
(21:56):
parenting periods that you like more than other periods? Like
I remember saying when we were talking the other day
that you couldn't really do another toddler after that.
S3 (22:03):
No, I think, uh, yeah. I think I found sort
of from 18 months to three. Tricky because there's walking
and movement, but no very little reasoning like they're cute.
But when you're parenting them and looking after them and
they're just a lot, it's tiring. They're strong and you're
trying to get them in the car seat and the
(22:24):
this and the that. If you're in a hurry, you
sort of just. Yeah. So it's I found I find
that a bit trying, but I must say, as I
got older, I got better with that because I just
resigned myself to it. Like, yeah, I'm not going to
try and control it too much. And I also had
Craig with the older two and he's a different sort
(22:44):
of person. Strong didn't really worry about toddler tantrums and
things like that. Was happy to just take him on.
Whereas I used to sort of try to wrestle with
them and I just found it exhausting actually, physically and mentally,
but cute, but just, oh my God, I love that
afternoon sleep. No one's taking that away from me ever.
(23:07):
You know, when you're when you're parenting a toddler, it's like,
I'm not going anywhere at 2:00.
S2 (23:12):
I know people think you're too rigid and you're like, sorry. No. Yeah.
S3 (23:16):
And people are in bed at seven.
S2 (23:20):
And are there any other periods that you sort of
struggled with?
S3 (23:23):
Um, I then I just think that teenage kind of age. Actually,
now where we are, where it's like we've got a
so that 14 year old age because they see all
the they're not 16. Yeah. So they can't really there's
not parties. And I mean they don't have a huge amount.
I mean they've got some independence. They can't work either.
(23:43):
But they want to be doing a lot of things
like that. So they're rendered a little bit. They're just
between a rock and a hard place. Um, and they're
separating from you. So they're kind of. They don't really.
They say you say something's right. They say it's black
just because. So I find that a little harder. But see,
we've got two boys at home now, so I don't
(24:04):
probably feel it as much as Craig. I think there's
a gender thing that's different, right? I feel more with
the girls.
S2 (24:12):
Yeah, right.
S3 (24:12):
Yeah. Because they're just. Oh, mum. Whereas the boys are like,
I'm not really, you know, sort of on their in
their zone anyway. My relationship with them, with them is
a bit different. Whereas I think Craig feels that a
bit at the moment. And that's the thing I know
is that look there, she's 26, she's about to be 27.
(24:36):
Someone's about to turn 20. Hamish is 25 and James
is 22, and Seb's just gone to a Anu. So
it's like they go. So you've got to actually have
stuff for yourself because they are going to go.
S2 (24:48):
And is that one lesson you sort of learned over
the six like that? Maybe you just, you know, that
that sort of sense of acceptance. Yes. That when they
reach that age, that.
S3 (24:57):
And it's really sad and there's grief and all of that,
but it's just, I mean, I look at me now,
I mean, my parents aren't around, but three years ago
or something, I still wasn't, you know, you living your life,
it's inevitable that that's going to happen. We all live
our lives. You. It just changes. I'm looking forward to grandchildren.
S2 (25:17):
Yes.
S3 (25:19):
Um. But that's why I like to have my job.
S2 (25:22):
And so let's move on to that, actually, because I
could talk about you, about parenting all day. I mean,
you you've written parenting books. You've done some shows on
Foxtel from here to maternity. Um, the weekend editor was saying,
I think I shared this with you, that your, your
book about fussy eating was like her Bible when her
daughter was refusing to eat anything but the space you've
(25:42):
moved into now, both at the Kidman Foundation and in
family law, is kind of tied in a way to
that expertise that you've built up as a mother, which
is in family law. I mean, obviously, um, there's all
sorts of things that go on in family law, but, but,
but you're particularly interested in sort of high conflict matters
(26:04):
and parenting matters. Talk me through a little bit more
about what you do as a both as a lawyer
but also as a parenting coordinator.
S3 (26:11):
Yeah. Well, family law is that it's that sort of
I was drawn to it because it's an area of
law where there's a strong, uh, human connection. So I
just like being involved with people at that really terrible,
difficult stage in their lives, um, where, you know, the
two centrepieces, I guess, of, of, of your life, which
(26:34):
is your finances and your and your children are sort
of in dispute, so to speak. And so connecting with
people at that point is, is very, very satisfying because
you can allow them or assist them to sort of
come up with some sort of a solution to their
(26:55):
problems with. But within the context, the legal context, not
necessarily in a moral context or a what's fair context
from a personal point of view, but in a legal
context and therefore, you know, advising them or informing them
on that and then allowing them to make their decisions
(27:15):
based on that. And it's because it's often it's very different,
you know, what you can obtain or what's reality in
a legal sense is very different to what a person
thinks they're entitled to or expects, or perhaps thinks they're
not entitled to is often as as frequently the case.
So I love that process. And it's a long as
(27:38):
you said, it's big. There's so many elements to it.
And I work in a big firm, um, which, you know,
we have a we have a lot of very, very
wide and varied matters that that span the spectrum. So,
so there's that aspect. And then there's um, parenting coordination is,
is not where you're advocating for one party, so to speak.
(28:01):
It's more where you're sitting in the middle. It's a
newish kind of approach that's come out of the US.
They use it a lot in South Africa too, and
it's um, it's whereby people who have orders or a
parenting plan in place and they need to implement those
particular aspects of the orders, because the orders aren't going
(28:21):
to be prescriptive for every single situation or circumstance, and
they're fighting over that, rather than going back to lawyers
and throwing letters left, right and center and maybe making
a contravention application in the court or some other kind
of application, it's like, okay, well, let's sit and let's
work out how to resolve this. Um, that's what the
(28:42):
parenting coordination does. So it sort of. Yeah. So, so
you can put in and that's where you can put
in your practical sense the wisdom of experience. You just
need to have that, that sort of real, sort of grounded, um,
volume of, of expertise, I think, to be able to
do that kind of work. Yeah.
S2 (29:01):
And so, um, your mum had said to you, you know,
it's important to have something for yourself. You've learned that
as your kids leave home.
S3 (29:12):
Um, and my family lawyer actually said it to me.
S2 (29:15):
Yeah, right.
S3 (29:16):
And I that's why I like family law. It's just,
I mean, I still go back to things that she
said to me. And. Yeah, she just said, always keep
your hand in it. When I told her I was
moving to Singapore and she said, you know, you just
you just need to keep your hand in it in
some kind of work. I mean, and so that's. Yeah.
And that just rang with me and mum when dad
died was like, I was like, why am I doing
(29:39):
this stupid autograph? I find it so hard at times.
And she was like, cos you're doing it because you
need to have something afterwards, because I don't and I
wish I did.
S2 (29:50):
So she regretted that did she. Yeah. Yeah.
S3 (29:52):
Right. Yeah.
S2 (29:53):
Laura's been a real passion discovery for you.
S3 (29:56):
Yeah it has, it has because I like, um. Well,
I like the intellectual side of it. I like the, the, um, I,
you know, there's performance to it. There's, um, there's engagement
with people I just like, I love interacting with people
I like. I like the journalism part because I like
knowing people's stories and helping them find it. Um, yeah,
(30:17):
it's it just I thrive on it, so. And but
I also like the writing side, too. I like sort
of telling people's stories, which is what you're doing a
lot in, in, you know, drafting of documents and so on. Um,
the one thing I probably don't love that sort of the,
the adversarial nature of it. So but in family law, it's,
(30:40):
it's designed not to be adversarial or to, to limit
that adversarial aspect in that, you know, there's a lot
of pre-action procedures that funnel people into mediations and really
focusing on resolving their disputes without getting to court. Um, so,
so that's there's there's a strong sort of area of
(31:01):
it that that doesn't have to be adversarial. So, yeah,
I just don't like that. Yeah. That's sort of yeah,
I wouldn't be very good at the bar.
S2 (31:11):
So no plans.
S3 (31:11):
To go to the bar.
S2 (31:14):
For the rest of your life about that exam. Um,
and let's come to finally, the Kidman Foundation.
S3 (31:21):
Yeah.
S2 (31:21):
So your dad founded the Kidman Center 40 years ago.
It wasn't called Kidman Center. Then. It only became got
that name after he died.
S3 (31:29):
It was called the Foundation for Life Sciences. Yeah.
S2 (31:31):
But he sort of pioneered this idea of academics actually
also then raising money for their research, which is a
thing he got in the US. And I, Dick Smith,
who I also spoke to for the um, was was
the first donor, I think, to the Kidman Center. Yes.
Back when the muscular dystrophy study was happening. Yeah. Um, now.
So Kidman, center, has the Kidman Foundation, is the fundraising arm,
(31:55):
and you and your husband Craig are now on the
board of that. So tell me a little bit about
about the work that that the Kidman Center does, because
it's very adolescent, sort of youth focused. Well, a bullying work.
Rachel Murray, who's the director, is telling me.
S3 (32:10):
So they have lots of different programs and and there's
one that's about to be launched in mid September, mid
November at Parliament House, which is the super powers that
PS is fronting. Peter Overton and Jessica are fronting up,
but I guess it's um, there's many levels to it.
So there's one on one programs and obviously psychological therapies and,
(32:34):
and supports. And then there's sort of that regional thrive
X aspect to it where they go out, they send
psychologists out into the regional areas to educate teachers, um,
on how to, you know, respond and identify at risk
children with the sort of the idea that if you
(32:57):
can intervene early enough, there's a lot more chance of,
you know, putting in some therapeutic measures and forms of
supports to, uh, allow children then to respond and have
a better outcome. And also because there's not that many
psychologists in regional areas. So it's sort of like educating teachers.
And I know teachers have a huge amount on them anyway,
(33:17):
but it's just to be able to to manage and
identify these sorts of at risk kids that we have
that teachers do here in the, in the, um, in
the city regions. But but not necessarily in those countries,
in remote areas. Um, so there's that aspect and then
there's all that whole swathe of programs and there. Yeah.
So it's a, you know, it's, it's a very um,
(33:40):
and super powers will be a digital platform that's, you know,
available to anyone that's free. Uh, and it allows you
just to so you're not sort of in crisis. The
person's not in crisis, but it's the struggling parent who's
sort of got a child, you know, they don't quite
(34:00):
know what to do. You can you can, um, go
online and get some information, a little sort of, um,
snapshot pieces of, um, digital material and it's useful that way.
So yeah, it's it's designed I mean, the whole sort
of ethos of the place, I guess, is to deliver
services to people to assist them who are struggling with
(34:22):
managing their kids.
S2 (34:23):
I had a look at this super parenting powers thing.
I've done one module already, but it's it's really good.
It's very modern and it sort of it's all about
helping you connect with your children. So when that there
is a problem that comes up with them, they're much
more comfortable with talking to you about it. You kind
of have a better sense of how to respond rather than,
you know.
S3 (34:42):
Freaking.
S2 (34:43):
Out really quick. And yeah.
S3 (34:44):
And giving you that idea of what's what's okay, what
you do. Because we get so scared. Like you go,
oh my God, this is I've heard this is happening
to my kid and you don't know the context to
put it in. It's like, well then do I just
ban everything, you know, and you need that sort of
reassurance or the reassurance to go, yeah, actually, you know,
(35:06):
taking that approach is okay. You do need to put
up some strong boundaries. And you should be now, because
it's enough so that that's very that's sort of I've
got that from my I mean I just had that
fortunately from my parents not saying that, but it's, you know,
a lot of in this day and age it's very
hard to know what to do. We get so much,
(35:27):
we get bombarded with information. And we also live in
this sort of, you know, fear of your kid's going
to end up like that kid on the show in adolescence.
S2 (35:38):
So because we all watched that in horror, I know
I haven't had to watch it, to be honest. I'm
still gearing up for that one, but it must be
nice to be able to steward your father's work.
S3 (35:53):
Yes.
S2 (35:53):
Is that that must be very.
S3 (35:55):
Really nice, actually. And because he died when, um, in Singapore.
So I remember, like, looking at him and just going, oh, man.
You know, it still was. I was still obviously in shock,
but just going and it's, you know, I've got a
I'm gonna just honor you in some shape or form.
(36:15):
I'm moving forward and and I think this is my
way of doing it. Yeah. I mean, we haven't, um.
We still have his ashes. We'll we'll scatter them. Nicole
and I still will. We will scatter them. And my mother's, um, soon,
and we know where we will, but, um, but it's
just that that in itself, it keeps him alive. Because,
(36:39):
you know, one thing we all know about death is,
is if you're dead, unless people remember you and talk
about you. Otherwise, it's just vapor. So. Yeah.
S2 (36:50):
Well, Antonio, it has been delightful talking to you. I really,
really appreciate your time. I hope everybody reads the magazine
and has a look at super parent powers and the
work of the Kidman Center.
S3 (37:01):
Thank you so much, Jordan.
S1 (37:04):
That was Antonio Marin, the journalist, author, lawyer and now
mental health advocate about the lasting legacy of her father
Anthony on the latest Good Weekend talks. If you enjoyed
this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever
you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more
compelling conversations. Coming soon, we chat with the legendary Ita Buttrose,
(37:27):
the trailblazing media icon who, at 83, remains as sharp
and opinionated as ever. Good Weekend Talks is brought to
you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age proud
newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe
Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall, with technical assistance
(37:51):
from Kai Wong and editing from Tim Mummery. Our executive
producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio
and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.