November 14, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, we speak to Helen Goh, who has been writing recipes for the food pages of Good Weekend for eight years. The celebrated cookbook author left Melbourne for London in 2006, when she was 40 - and as luck would have it fell in with Yotam Ottolenghi early in his ascent to global cooking superstardom, becoming a key cooking and testing collaborator. What many don't know is that Goh is also a trained psychologist and still sees patients in London, alongside her baking career. Goh has just released her first solo book - Baking and the Meaning of Life - in which she combines her two great loves: psychology and cooking. Joining us today, she discusses all this and more with Good Weekend senior writer Katrina Strickland.
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S1 (00:15):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:36):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to
Helen Goh, the celebrated cookbook author left Melbourne in 2006
at the age of 40 for London, where, as luck
would have it, she fell in with Yotam Ottolenghi early
in his ascent to global cooking. Superstardom. Goh became one
of Ottolenghi's key cooking and testing collaborators, and went on
(00:58):
to write two cookbooks with him. He's now actually godparent
to the eldest of her two sons. But what many
don't know is that Goh, who moved to Melbourne from
Malaysia when she was 11, is also a trained psychologist
with a PhD under her apron and that she still
sees patients in London. Alongside her baking career, Goh has
(01:18):
just released her first solo book, baking and the Meaning
of Life, in which she combines her two great loves
psychology and cooking. And joining us today, she discusses how
each discipline feeds into the other, the perfectionism required for
writing a good recipe, and what she's learned from eight
years of writing recipes for the food pages of Good
Weekend magazine. She discusses all this and more with Katrina Strickland,
(01:42):
the magazine's former editor, now a senior writer who brought
go into the magazine and as it happens, went to
school with her, too.
S2 (01:51):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Helen. Hi, Katrina, thanks so much
for having me. I think you're the first of our
columnists who we've had on Good weekend. Really? Oh, I
feel honoured. Yeah. So tell us. We know that you
grew up in Malaysia and moved to Melbourne when you
were 11. And then you moved to London at 40.
So that's three different countries, three different cuisines. Let me
(02:15):
know what an ingredient in each of those countries. And
then what what it reminds you of with that country.
So let's start with Malaysia. When you look back on,
you know, 0 to 11 what what food and smells
and experiences. Gosh, that's a straight to mind. That's a
tricky one because Malaysia is just so. The ingredients are
so complex and there's so many. But I would have
(02:38):
to say pandan I'm going to go with pandan. And
what what's your memory of pandan as a child. Well
first of all we had pandan growing in our garden.
Um quite prolifically. And also the scent and also the
colour is so sort of distinct and, you know, it's
like they call it the vanilla of the East. So
any cakes? What? They're usually steamed or fried, but. Or boiled? Um,
(03:03):
you know, any of the cakes would have that very
distinct green color, and you just know automatically it's pandan.
How do you remember life in Malaysia? What? What is
your feeling about it? Was it a happy time? Was
it a stressful time you talk about in the book
about the family leaving because there were discriminatory, um, policies
(03:24):
against Chinese Malaysians? Yes. How did that impact your your
life there? Well, I think the new economic policy, I
think it was called, which came into effect. Oh, gosh. Uh,
I want to say early 70s, I think, but I
could be wrong, could be late 60s. And I think
it made my father very jumpy and very nervous that,
(03:45):
you know, they weren't sure what it was, except that
it was very possible that there may be, um, limits
to education for Chinese Malaysians. And that was his main thing,
that we were educated, so that made us move. He
started the proceedings to migrate to Australia. Um, and I
remember life before that being, I guess it felt like
(04:09):
we were big fish in very small pond. We were.
We weren't in Kuala Lumpur. We were in Klang, which
was sort of I think it's south and quite a
small kind of precinct. And dad was involved in shipping
and politics and, you know, so it felt like he, he,
you know, like we had we were very privileged in
some ways. Um, and I although I think at that
(04:30):
time it's not unusual to have chauffeurs and gardeners and,
you know, home tutors, you know, we had all of that.
So it felt very privileged. And then I think moving
to Australia was kind of a real eye opener because,
you know, we were literally nobody. Yes. And what food.
S3 (04:48):
Then comes to mind when you think of Melbourne? That
must have been such a boring cuisine in in a
sense after the, the smells and exoticness of Malaysian food.
S2 (04:58):
It was so new. Everything was new for schools. Um, language. Everything.
But the one thing that wasn't new was that my
mother continued to cook. You know, Malaysian food. So that
was our constant. And that was very important for her
in terms of it was something that she felt she
was competent at, you know, in a country where she
could not speak the language. Um, and then it was
(05:21):
sort of the comfort that we all came home from
wherever we were challenging, you know, spaces during the day
and come home to that meal together. That was, you know,
I think now I look back even more important than
I realise, you know, not just for not just for her,
but for all of us. Just that touchstone to sort of,
you know, back then, um, but actually, when I think
(05:43):
of Melbourne now, I think of the years in my
30s when I was, you know, single and, um, an
adult and forging my way, and I think of Cosmopolitans. Yeah,
it's sort of my free single, um, days. Yeah.
S3 (06:01):
And it's funny, isn't it? Because Melbourne is really thought
of as the food capital of Australia. Yeah. The coffee culture,
the bars, the. Yes. Great. You know, restaurants. But yes,
I can imagine back then in, in the 70s, it
might not have been at all like that.
S2 (06:19):
Well, in the 70s, uh, you know, we were still
very much at, at school and at home. So that
was sort of. Yeah.
S3 (06:26):
You weren't doing cafes? No, I wasn't doing cosmopolitans.
S2 (06:28):
Then when the food that I think about most, when
I think about my, you know, my time in Melbourne
as an adult is, uh, Vietnamese like fur and Victoria Street.
S3 (06:40):
Victoria Street.
S2 (06:40):
I remember, um, after I started my practice as a
psychologist in, um, Grattan Street, actually Drummond Street in Carlton
and I lived in, um, in Toorak, and I would
drive in, but I would. I would go for a
swim in the morning and then have a FIR in
Victoria Street and then go to work, and that just
(07:01):
seemed like I must have done that three times a week.
S3 (07:04):
Yeah.
S2 (07:04):
So that was, you know, um, I think of that
with Melbourne.
S3 (07:08):
And I think you've said that whilst your mum was
a very good cook, she wasn't a baker.
S2 (07:13):
No, no. Because Malaysian, uh, cakes are. Well, I think
now if you go to Malaysia now, I'm sure that
there are loads of all kinds of bakeries. But at
that time, um, growing up, the cakes were squidgy. Little, um,
steamed cakes, you know, using glutinous flour and cassava flour
and tapioca. So very, very different. So when we moved
(07:34):
to Australia, this strange thing called the oven in the,
in the kitchen was, was, you know, was very foreign.
S3 (07:41):
We, you didn't have an oven in Malaysia?
S2 (07:43):
I don't think.
S3 (07:44):
So. Yeah.
S2 (07:45):
I don't think so. I don't recall um, no I
would say not. No, no.
S3 (07:51):
And so then you went to university. You, with your
boyfriend at the time, decided to open a cafe in Hawthorn,
in Auburn Road, Hawthorn in Melbourne. And you made the cakes?
S2 (08:03):
Yes.
S3 (08:04):
How did you get into baking then? What made you
decide that baking was your thing?
S2 (08:09):
I shudder at our naivety then, and I mean knowing
now what I know, I just. I mean, how we
had that chutzpah to do that.
S3 (08:17):
Isn't that great? Because what age were you at that time?
S2 (08:19):
I was in my mid to late 20s. Mhm. Um,
and he was probably about the same. And it was,
it was just lunacy and naivety.
S3 (08:29):
Because he was a journalist. He was a journalist, a
psychology student at the time.
S2 (08:34):
I had just finished undergraduate psychology and I was taking
a break before going into to do postgraduate psychology. The
faculty had said to me that I was too young
and that it would be beneficial for me to get
some life experience, probably very sound advice, which I took. Um,
and I was actually a pharmaceutical rep at that time. And,
(08:54):
you know, it didn't really it was it didn't I mean,
it was great in some ways, you know, you were
given a car and a lot of flexibility. Um, but somehow,
you know, it was the food that felt like my calling.
S3 (09:08):
Yeah. And you made cakes for your the people that
you would visit or they made cakes for you. I
can't remember which it was.
S2 (09:15):
I mean, I never made anything, actually. I mean, literally,
I had no experience when I was a rep at
part of the, um, the drill was to talk to
doctors about new drugs. And what I found very quickly
is that if I arrange a lunch, I could would
have a captive audience, you know, that they would all
turn up. I believe this practice is no longer, um,
no longer legit. Yeah. Um, but at that time, it
(09:38):
was one of the ways you could be efficient as
well as, you know, to add a bit of levity
to the day. And over time, I felt I was
actually much, much more interested in what was for lunch. And, Yeah,
you know, the menu for lunch and choosing what was
for lunch then actually, you know, talking to the doctors
about the drugs.
S3 (09:57):
Yeah. And then the cafe you had a critic from
The Age, in fact, came in, just wandered in because
he was walking by? Yes. Had your chocolate cake and
described it in a. I think I've still got the
cutting actually in a in a review that said world's
best chocolate cake. Yes, I, I that tell me what
that did to the business and also to your confidence
(10:18):
as a baker, given that, as you say, you hadn't
been trained and nor had you really had a history
in your family of baking.
S2 (10:25):
Yes. Um, when he came in and when I mean,
he came in, he ate the cake. And he did
say we were given the heads up that he would
write something, but I didn't expect that it was going
to be on the front page of the Sunday Age.
It was at that time, um, with my picture in
it and and the cake and the title World's Best
(10:46):
Chocolate Cake. Controversial. Um, what did it do? I think
I didn't sleep properly for the next two years, you know,
for the remaining time that we had the business. Because, um,
that became. That really put us on the map. I mean,
the cafe was, despite our lack of experience, it, um,
(11:06):
it was ticking along quite nicely. Um, I, you know,
I it's not modesty saying this, but I think if
I had any talent, it was to employ the right people.
And I had a group of really lovely, a small
group of, of people who were very, very good cooks.
And I actually learned from them. And the chocolate cake. Yes.
I mean, it did put us on a, on the map. Um,
(11:28):
I would I lived above the store at the time
and um, after the article, we would make we making
that cake all around, all, all around the clock basically.
And I would as the last thing I did before
the cafe closed, I would put a batch in the oven,
set a timer for 90 minutes, go and grab something
(11:50):
to eat. Come back. Put another batch in the oven.
And up until, you know, going to bed, actually. So
it's got two eggs. Two eggs. And it does have flour,
but it's all made in one bowl with one whisk.
And I think that was its chief. Um, well, not
just the recipe, but actually it was. It's a really
reliable cake. In fact, Geoff Slattery at the time wrote
(12:12):
that when he made it, when I gave him the recipe,
he'd left out the eggs and it was still really nice.
So it's quite a forgiving cake.
S3 (12:20):
And it's in sweet your book.
S2 (12:21):
It is in sweet. And I was very certain that
I didn't want it named the World's Best Chocolate cake,
because I think you could. You know, disappointment is guaranteed
when you call something that. And in sweet, it's called
take home chocolate cake.
S3 (12:36):
Very modest.
S2 (12:36):
Well, actually, that's tied to, um, the experience when we
had the cafe that people would come in for lunch,
and then we made the cakes in lots of different sizes,
and they would then take away one of those cakes.
So yes, take away chocolate cake.
S3 (12:52):
And then you did it in reverse, didn't you? Because
then when you closed it from really exhaustion, you just
run out of steam for running that cafe. You wanted
to then go and get, I guess, proper training. And
you ended up eventually at Donovan's, where you were cooking
for 250 people. Again, you were kind of in the
(13:13):
pastry chef area. Tell us the key things that you
learned from from scaling up to that kind of big
that Donovan's just in case people aren't from Melbourne or
don't know. It is a big kind of seaside restaurant
destination restaurant.
S2 (13:27):
And it was at the time. Yes. Yeah.
S3 (13:29):
Tell us what you learned from that kind of scaling
up process.
S2 (13:32):
Good question. Um, I think to do things in stages,
I think at the cafe, because of my lack of
experience and training, I it was always felt like I
was just, you know, running on adrenaline. And although that's
definitely the case. Still with a restaurant of that size
at the time with Donovan's. The thing that I learned
(13:52):
was this idea of mise en place. Do you know
what that means? I mean, it's a French word for
everything in its place. And that was key. That was
absolutely key to that transition. So you would have let's
say you would have a plated dessert. It may have separate,
you know, five different components. So one part might be
(14:14):
ice cream. So you would have on your prep list
ice cream and all the things that you would do,
you know, to prepare that ice cream, make the custard,
you know, churn it, freeze it. And then you would have,
let's say, the sponge, you know, and, and a kind
of timetable of what could be prepared ahead of time
for assembly. And this idea of assembly, you know, you
(14:36):
have five different components already prepared through the day. And
then you would get this docket, you know, at dinner service.
And you would have to then, you know, um. Plate
it up. That's the essential difference, because at the cafe,
you make a cake and you either take home that
chocolate cake or you take a slice, you know? That's it.
S3 (14:55):
Yeah. And you, in terms of cooking. So you really
kind of perfected things there. And then you went to
London to be with David who's, who's your husband now?
And you got a job with Yotam Ottolenghi. Mhm. But
I guess you also had a doctorate in psychology at
that point. I guess that's fairly unusual because a lot
(15:18):
of cooks that you who particularly ones who kind of we,
we interview and know well have um come up and
haven't done that kind of like I guess university mind
work kind of career. Mhm. And yet you chose to
do something that's very hand work.
S2 (15:34):
Mhm.
S3 (15:34):
What was that. Always a tussle for you that you
wanted to do something creative with your hands. But you
also loved the intellectual. What made you choose I guess the,
the physicality of cooking over the the more head work
of psychology.
S2 (15:50):
Mhm. You know I never could I think there was
a point when I thought about cooking, just the physicality
of it, that that couldn't be sustained and that at
some point I might just have to leave. And probably
when I went back to do my, um, postgraduate, in fact,
I did the postgraduate while I was working at Donovan's. Mhm.
(16:10):
And that got me the registration to work as a psychologist.
And when I moved to London, what I realized was
that my Australian registration didn't allow me to practice as
a psychologist in London. And at that point I think
I really thought that, you know, now it's time to
settle down, you know, open a practice and, um, really
(16:32):
ensconce myself into the role of a psychologist. But there
was a, the red tape to convert the registration from
Australian to British was so, Uh, opaque. And so, um,
there was so much it was an 80 page manual
that I just thought I could not do it, but
(16:53):
I really wanted to practice. And the only other alternative
was to do a doctorate. So it was actually at
that point that I enrolled in the doctorate in London.
In London?
S3 (17:03):
Yes.
S2 (17:03):
But there was 3 to 4 months between when I
applied and between the doctorate starting. And I think David,
my husband, was quite worried that I was going to
be because I didn't know anybody at all, not one
single person. Um, so he.
S3 (17:18):
And he'd already been there.
S2 (17:20):
Or he'd been there for 15 years.
S3 (17:22):
Oh, right. Okay.
S2 (17:23):
Um, he's Australian as well. So he said all this,
you know, knowing that I do have this obviously kitchen work, um,
that I was I could do that. He suggested I
might visit this cute little store in Notting Hill down
the road from where we lived. So I went to
visit that place, and and it was an Ottolenghi deli.
And I thought, oh, I could work here. It just
(17:45):
seemed different to anything else. I'd, I, I'd worked anywhere
else I'd worked at. Um, so I wrote a letter.
An email. And your time got to me an hour later.
And then, you know, we were hours after that, we
were sitting, talking. And then that was a Friday afternoon,
(18:06):
I remember, and he said, you can start on Monday.
S3 (18:09):
And he had just the one store at that time.
S2 (18:12):
At that time, no, there was one in Islington and
there was one in Kensington. So three.
S3 (18:17):
So he was quite well known, but not on the
kind of global stratosphere that he's on now.
S2 (18:22):
No, he was the the cafes and delis were well
known for the kind of food and the aesthetic of it.
It was a very, you know, it was white and
and clean and clear, but then this sort of explosion
of colour for the salads and the windows with huge meringues.
So it had a very distinct vibe. And people did
come to sort of admire and to to eat there. Um,
(18:45):
but he wasn't well known. He hadn't. I don't think
he had his column in the Guardian at that time.
S3 (18:51):
Um, and you started off chopping and then very quickly changed.
Tell us that story. Yes.
S2 (18:56):
I think, you know, I came away feeling that that
was the end of my pastry. I was going to,
you know, do settle down into psychology. But when I
saw that window of salads, I thought that was so
different to anything I'd seen, you know, in, in Melbourne
at the time. I mean, of course, now I come,
I'm in Australia and I think, oh, it's just so
(19:17):
the food is just amazing. It's just punches above its weight.
And I mean, it's, it's it's just amazing.
S3 (19:23):
Anyway, in Australia, in Australia.
S2 (19:25):
Yeah. But at that time, you know, these salads, these
huge platters of salad, it was really like an Aladdin's cave.
And so I said, could I be in the salad section?
And I worked at that time with Sami Tamimi, who
was the head chef at the restaurants then. And yes.
So my job and I mean, although the delis were small,
(19:47):
loads and loads of people would come and queue, there
would be queues. So we had to make huge platters
and it wouldn't be, um, it wouldn't be uncommon for
me to be chopping, you know, two boxes of butternut
squash a day. And I and I remember, um, you know,
walking home, um, with blisters, feeling like my hands were
(20:09):
so sore and and really feeling sorry for myself that,
you know, there I was, you know, a registered psychologist
and everything. And here I was walking home with blistered hands.
Blistered fingers.
S3 (20:20):
Yeah. And then so you you really grown literally with,
with his success and all of you have kind of
got your own own success through that. It's a lovely
kind of flowering, isn't it? Yes. Um, your role, how
has your role changed? Because you essentially develop recipes, um,
is that right?
S2 (20:40):
That's right. I, um. So when it was time for
me to start the doctorate, I said to Yotam, I'm
leaving now. Thank you for everything. And he said, well,
you're not studying all the time. Surely you can, you know,
still stay with us. So, my, there has never been
sort of roles that I've stepped into. They've always been
roles that have been created because of the circumstances, whether
(21:04):
it was me going to do a doctorate or taking
time out to have my children. Um, and I think
it was down to your mum's openness, you know, to, to, to, um,
that fluidity to expand with me in a way. Um,
both of us, I guess, being willing to take a
(21:25):
leap into the unknown. There's never been a role of
recipe developer at that time. He just said, um, well,
if you're not working on the weekends, we have this
little warehouse in Camden. You could come and just, you know,
play around and make a few cakes, and so it
sort of developed very organically.
S3 (21:52):
Listeners might not realize that you still do see some
patients as a psychologist every week. Yes. Um, how does
how does that influence your baking and how does your
baking influence your psychology?
S2 (22:05):
I think for a long time I really saw that
there were two parallel tracks that never met. They were very,
very separate. And I did have this fear that my
patients would know that I was really a baker, you know,
in my like a really I moonlighted as a baker
just because I felt that maybe they would think I
wasn't so serious about my work with them. Um, how
(22:29):
does it inform, you know, for a long time, I
would say it didn't. It was almost like I needed
I you know, what you were asking before? There was
a part of me that was very tuned in to
the more cerebral aspects of psychology. But then I felt
that I needed the more physical, creative aspects of cooking.
But now, if I have to think about it, I
think the the confluence would be the sense of a
(22:50):
process happening and patience and presence. This idea that you
really have to be tuned in to your patient, and
you really have to be tuned in to what you're baking.
I mean, yes, you could whip up a sponge and
not be overly focused, but. But part of the pleasure
I think of baking is that focus, that it takes
(23:11):
you away from that white noise in your head, and
that you could, with your hands and your senses, you know,
bring yourself to that. And I think for me, that's
sort of the enjoyable part of it. So I would
think those three P's probably. Yeah.
S3 (23:27):
And do you is it something that you overtly advise
patients who need to get out of their head and
perhaps do some stress relief? Do you do you tell
them to bake or to cook?
S2 (23:37):
Never, Never. Yeah. The college that I chose to do
the doctorate in. Um, I had been trained in Australia
in psychodynamic psychotherapy. And when I was going to do
the doctorate to satisfy the requirement for registration, I. I
wasn't so much interested in what kind of psychology it
(23:58):
was in my head. I was psychoanalytic, psychodynamic all the way. Um,
but I chose it for convenience. The college for convenience.
And I also loved Regent's Park with all the topiary.
So I really chose the institution for the train line
and the topiary. Yeah. I would have to say, um,
so that took me that college was helmed by a, um,
(24:22):
an existential, very well known existential practitioner called Ernesto Spinelli.
Although I, it took me many, many years of the,
of the doctorate to, um, to see the relevance of
existential psychology. So in the sense when I'm with my patients,
I'm not advising anything. I'm just I guess I'm listening
(24:44):
intently and maybe I'm maybe echoing back to them what
they feel that they're saying, what I'm hearing, what they're
saying about their lives. And in it, I might I
might be tune in in a psychodynamic level to their
history or some of their unconscious processes. But I'd also
very much be tuned in because of my existential studies,
(25:06):
tuned in to how they make a meaningful life, how
how they live. What do they do that makes them
makes their lives meaningful? So I wouldn't be offering advice,
you know, rather than, I would say, listening intently and
echoing back.
S3 (25:22):
And that brings us to your book, baking and the
Meaning of Life, in which you talk about existentialism and,
and that, um, thread of psychology. Mhm. What's really fascinating
about the book and what makes it really magical, I think,
is that you do combine your psychology and your understanding
of what baking does for community and for relationships with
(25:46):
100 recipes. Yes. What made you decide to bring? As
you said, they were parallel train tracks. What made you
decide to bring them together and what what were you
trying to achieve in doing that?
S2 (25:59):
I think over the years of doing the column, I,
I'd had, you know, um, feedback column for the column
for Good Weekend, I have always thought that it would
be really lovely to compile the, the recipes together. You know,
sometimes if I've been worried about a recipe not being
not hitting the spot, my husband would, you know, ground
(26:21):
me by saying, look, don't worry, it's fish and chip
paper the next day. You know, if I fill a recipe.
Hasn't quite, you know, made it. Um, but but I
did think how nice it would be to to compile.
So in my head and actually, in reality, I'd had
a number of publishers contact me since publishing. Sweet um,
to to to do a cookbook, and I never really
(26:43):
felt that there was a real urge. I didn't feel
the urge to do that, um, until the penny dropped
in in one one on one particular week. It was
in 2023. There was a spate of natural disasters that year.
Quite unnerving. The deadliest one was an earthquake that hit
(27:06):
Turkey and Syria, and we were all watching on very
helpless and and grief stricken for them. And there was
a British food writer who decided that she wanted to
galvanise the baking community and to put together a bake
sale to raise money for the British Red cross, who
were who were at that time, um, you know, looking
(27:29):
after the, um, uh, the victims. And we had two
days to prepare for it, and it was all done
through a kind of Bush Telegraph Instagram style. And we
were to deliver everything to this pub in north London
very early on the Saturday morning. So I'd made, you know,
cupcakes and cornbread and muffins and, and I was delivering
(27:51):
these goods, um, very early on the Saturday morning with
my kids in the back and my husband driving, and
we were balancing these boxes of cakes in, and we
dropped them off to this pub in north London. And
when we got back into the car, my husband said
to me, he's a bit of a numbers man, I guess.
And he said, that's just such an inefficient way to
raise money. Wouldn't it have been better if everybody dropped £20?
(28:15):
And I thought, you know, he's right. I mean, it
was very inefficient. But what he wasn't tuned into and
what he wasn't privy to because he didn't he was
waiting in the car, was this sense of pride that
we all had this sense of competence, competence, the sense
of autonomy that we had, that we we were doing
something beyond our our beyond what we our needs in
(28:39):
solidarity to these people thousands of miles away. And the
community was of sort of the community of bakers, the
community of north Londoners, who felt very proud that this
was happening in their local pub, um, and the sense
of belonging to a bigger cause, to have a bigger cause,
and all the way home from north London to west London,
(29:02):
where we lived, I, you know, was sort of championing
this idea that it's not just cake, that it was
something more that we were offering, um, and that, you know, chiefly,
nobody needs to eat cake. But it's also that joy
of something that that wasn't for sustenance. It was just
for the pure joy of it. And that that wasn't trivial.
S3 (29:23):
Yeah, I think that's lovely. The other thing that really
does come through in the book is that, you know,
we're in a kind of time of loneliness epidemic. We're
all glued to our smartphones. We're all kind of talking
about AI and all these kind of things that are
going to make us even more separate from each other.
In a sense, what you're saying is that things like baking,
(29:47):
it's the way in which we drop in to see
someone drop a cake in when they're ill, or when
they're upset because they've had a breakup, or when they're
celebrating because something's happened. Yes. Do we kind of need
it more than ever at this point in history? Do
you think?
S2 (30:05):
I agree, I think it's become so atomized, you know, um, through,
you know, our smartphones and devices and, and I, I yes,
I think that it's a baking is a unique is
uniquely a vehicle to convey those things that that in
in one bake you can say I've, I've, I've spent
(30:25):
two hours making this and it's for you.
S3 (30:27):
So you say all these things non-verbally.
S2 (30:30):
Exactly. I think that you do say it just, you know,
I mean, there was a time when I, um, uh,
a friend of mine whose husband was, was unwell and
was had going was going through chemotherapy, and he had
his treatments, you know, organised and over many months we'd,
I'd drop off, you know, lasagna soup and, and, um, salads.
(30:54):
And they were very appreciative. But I think there was
one point when I, he was craving an apple pie
and I dropped that over and, you know, it was
because it was completely unnecessary. But it also in just
looking at the pie, he would have known that I'd
spent quite a bit of time in a focused attention to,
to make him that pie. It was what it represented.
(31:15):
So not just the comfort of eating the pie, but.
But what what the act actually represented.
S3 (31:20):
Yep. So true. Um, you give a lot of great
tips in your books and I think in your columns
for good weekend as well. I think some recipe writers
aren't as specific as you. Is that. Is that just
a part of your nature, or is that come from
trial and error, from learning? I mean, there's nothing like
a weekly column to teach you what to do right
(31:42):
and wrong. Yes. Tell us why you're. Because I think
they're very useful. Those little tips you give.
S2 (31:47):
Mhm. Um, many people say that they they cook, but
they don't bake. And I think it's this, they've, I
think when they say that they're tuning into this feeling
of baking as being inflexible, being rule governed and inflexible.
And actually, it's true. I think there are some rules
that do make you a more, um, confident baker. But
(32:08):
it's being able to say, well, if you can't find this,
use that. I think, I think it can reassure you
that you know it. It's this isn't just this, not
just this one way. And it's going to fail if
you don't have just this ingredient. And just to kind
of loosen things up a bit. Yeah. Um, but also,
(32:29):
I think the frustration when you, um, when you go
to the trouble to shop for your ingredients and then
to make it and to feel like one little, one
little part that you're unsure of stumps you. And then
it either makes you it either gives you the jitters and,
you know, you lose the confidence to bake it to
(32:50):
its sort of full capacity. Um, and just sometimes that
voice just to say, don't worry if it looks curdled,
just keep on. It will be fine. Sometimes that's all
you need to keep going.
S3 (33:03):
So true. Right. I've been at that position myself. One
of the other things, really looking through the book that
struck me was all the color and all the ingredients
that that our guests are very multicultural. You've got a
lot of matcha. You've got persimmon. Um, tamarind. Is that
a is that a very, um, deliberate way of talking
(33:24):
to the world as it is now? Or is that
just that they add good color or taste, or is
that your experience? What's that?
S2 (33:34):
I think it's a bit of both. I don't start
out with that idea of, oh, what magical or what
esoteric ingredient I can use, because I think it's it's
got to work. Um, I think it's lovely to add
an interest and to, um, to excite, you know, with,
with something a bit unusual, but not gratuitously. I think that,
(33:55):
you know, when it is gratuitous, it's really about how
clever the writer is rather than how useful the bake is.
And I think there must have been a time, I
don't know how many years ago, when I really prided
myself on being a clever baker, and I, I, I've,
I've kind of I feel like I've developed into someone
(34:16):
who is more, uh, focused on delivering that joy of
a recipe that works, you know, rather than, aw, look
how clever this recipe is.
S3 (34:26):
Yeah, You also have, um, a lot of options for
vegans or dairy free. Is that really a non-negotiable in
2025 that you need to give those options?
S2 (34:37):
Yeah, I think it is. And I'll be the first
to say I, I, I'm it's not my forte. So
I like it when a bake is naturally vegan or
naturally gluten free rather than or how can I veganize
or make this gluten free? Because I think also there
are loads of people who are dedicated to that and
I leave it to them. But if it does happen
(34:58):
that you know something is gluten free or vegan, I think, great,
I will completely embrace that.
S3 (35:04):
Yeah. And what have you been doing your good weekend
column now for? I think about seven, seven or so,
up to eight years. Nearly eight years. Yes. What what
have you learned from that. From the the kind of like.
Because that's that's yes. Pretty regular.
S2 (35:18):
It is regular. I've learned a lot. A lot. Um,
and in fact, I'm not sure that I would have
really put together this book without that, the rigors of it.
I think the the devil is in the detail. I mean,
you know, a comma can make a difference between interpretation.
You know how it's interpreted. And I know that you
(35:38):
know this very well, having been my editor. Um, the
other thing is also this, um, the joy that I
feel when I see. So the recipe comes out on
a Saturday and someone's tagged me on Instagram that they've
made it. It's on their table on Sunday. I think
that has that has made me realize actually the power
(36:01):
of the and accessible bake. So I'm more tuned in
to how accessible is this you know, to make if
could you make this on a Sunday if if you
get the recipe on a Saturday. So you may it
may necessitate a trip to the supermarket. But maybe you
don't need to be online ordering a special ingredient. Um,
(36:21):
so it has informed me. My my, my sort of
steering towards more, more accessible baking.
S3 (36:30):
And yet in the book you've also got some amazing
I know that Matilda's cake, some amazing ones that do
take that are going to take you half a day.
S2 (36:38):
Yes, because I think there are still people who enjoy
a project bake and, you know, a lot of people
in the same way that people have said, oh, no,
baking frightens me. Many people have said that to me.
The same number of people have also said baking is
what I go to to calm me as a kind
of therapy. And both I, I guess I'm more tuned
in to the, um, to the therapy side of it
(37:01):
because it is so embodied, it's so sensorial. It is effortful.
So you do need to focus, but you need to
focus just enough so that you're, again, you know, um,
distracted from the white noise in your head. Um, but
it's not so challenging that it's stressful. So it's that perfect,
that sweet spot where, you know, if you want something
(37:23):
to take your mind off a worry or something that
you're ruminating over. I think baking is a it's a
low stakes kind of activity for you to, to do that.
S3 (37:33):
And the book is called baking and the Meaning of Life.
S2 (37:37):
Oh, no, I think I know what you're going to
ask me.
S3 (37:39):
Yes. What is the meaning of life? Helen Goh.
S2 (37:41):
The 42 of the book. I, you know, I break
the book up into sections that are called, uh, giving,
receiving and sharing Rituals and traditions, nurturing, celebrating, um, community
and belonging and continuity and remembrance. And I don't know
(38:02):
whether you mean for me to say it in one word,
but I think those chapter headings for me all together
represent what it might be to live a good life. Um, well,
it certainly gives me a lot of meaning when I
look into what. Yeah, if I look into what has
given my life meaning, I think those chapter headings probably
(38:24):
capture something of that.
S3 (38:26):
Yeah. Well, congratulations, Helen, and thank you for coming on.
Good weekend talks.
S2 (38:31):
Thank you so much, Katrina.
S1 (38:34):
That was cookbook author and psychologist Helen Goh in conversation
with good Weekend senior writer Katrina Strickland on the latest
Good Weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember
to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts
and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations. Good Weekend
Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald
(38:54):
and The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support
independent journalism. Search, subscribe. Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?
This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall,
with technical assistance from Kai Wong and editing from Tim Mummery.
Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head
(39:14):
of audio and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:36):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to
Helen Goh, the celebrated cookbook author left Melbourne in 2006
at the age of 40 for London, where, as luck
would have it, she fell in with Yotam Ottolenghi early
in his ascent to global cooking. Superstardom. Goh became one
of Ottolenghi's key cooking and testing collaborators, and went on
(00:58):
to write two cookbooks with him. He's now actually godparent
to the eldest of her two sons. But what many
don't know is that Goh, who moved to Melbourne from
Malaysia when she was 11, is also a trained psychologist
with a PhD under her apron and that she still
sees patients in London. Alongside her baking career, Goh has
(01:18):
just released her first solo book, baking and the Meaning
of Life, in which she combines her two great loves
psychology and cooking. And joining us today, she discusses how
each discipline feeds into the other, the perfectionism required for
writing a good recipe, and what she's learned from eight
years of writing recipes for the food pages of Good
Weekend magazine. She discusses all this and more with Katrina Strickland,
(01:42):
the magazine's former editor, now a senior writer who brought
go into the magazine and as it happens, went to
school with her, too.
S2 (01:51):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Helen. Hi, Katrina, thanks so much
for having me. I think you're the first of our
columnists who we've had on Good weekend. Really? Oh, I
feel honoured. Yeah. So tell us. We know that you
grew up in Malaysia and moved to Melbourne when you
were 11. And then you moved to London at 40.
So that's three different countries, three different cuisines. Let me
(02:15):
know what an ingredient in each of those countries. And
then what what it reminds you of with that country.
So let's start with Malaysia. When you look back on,
you know, 0 to 11 what what food and smells
and experiences. Gosh, that's a straight to mind. That's a
tricky one because Malaysia is just so. The ingredients are
so complex and there's so many. But I would have
(02:38):
to say pandan I'm going to go with pandan. And
what what's your memory of pandan as a child. Well
first of all we had pandan growing in our garden.
Um quite prolifically. And also the scent and also the
colour is so sort of distinct and, you know, it's
like they call it the vanilla of the East. So
any cakes? What? They're usually steamed or fried, but. Or boiled? Um,
(03:03):
you know, any of the cakes would have that very
distinct green color, and you just know automatically it's pandan.
How do you remember life in Malaysia? What? What is
your feeling about it? Was it a happy time? Was
it a stressful time you talk about in the book
about the family leaving because there were discriminatory, um, policies
(03:24):
against Chinese Malaysians? Yes. How did that impact your your
life there? Well, I think the new economic policy, I
think it was called, which came into effect. Oh, gosh. Uh,
I want to say early 70s, I think, but I
could be wrong, could be late 60s. And I think
it made my father very jumpy and very nervous that,
(03:45):
you know, they weren't sure what it was, except that
it was very possible that there may be, um, limits
to education for Chinese Malaysians. And that was his main thing,
that we were educated, so that made us move. He
started the proceedings to migrate to Australia. Um, and I
remember life before that being, I guess it felt like
(04:09):
we were big fish in very small pond. We were.
We weren't in Kuala Lumpur. We were in Klang, which
was sort of I think it's south and quite a
small kind of precinct. And dad was involved in shipping
and politics and, you know, so it felt like he, he,
you know, like we had we were very privileged in
some ways. Um, and I although I think at that
(04:30):
time it's not unusual to have chauffeurs and gardeners and,
you know, home tutors, you know, we had all of that.
So it felt very privileged. And then I think moving
to Australia was kind of a real eye opener because,
you know, we were literally nobody. Yes. And what food.
S3 (04:48):
Then comes to mind when you think of Melbourne? That
must have been such a boring cuisine in in a
sense after the, the smells and exoticness of Malaysian food.
S2 (04:58):
It was so new. Everything was new for schools. Um, language. Everything.
But the one thing that wasn't new was that my
mother continued to cook. You know, Malaysian food. So that
was our constant. And that was very important for her
in terms of it was something that she felt she
was competent at, you know, in a country where she
could not speak the language. Um, and then it was
(05:21):
sort of the comfort that we all came home from
wherever we were challenging, you know, spaces during the day
and come home to that meal together. That was, you know,
I think now I look back even more important than
I realise, you know, not just for not just for her,
but for all of us. Just that touchstone to sort of,
you know, back then, um, but actually, when I think
(05:43):
of Melbourne now, I think of the years in my
30s when I was, you know, single and, um, an
adult and forging my way, and I think of Cosmopolitans. Yeah,
it's sort of my free single, um, days. Yeah.
S3 (06:01):
And it's funny, isn't it? Because Melbourne is really thought
of as the food capital of Australia. Yeah. The coffee culture,
the bars, the. Yes. Great. You know, restaurants. But yes,
I can imagine back then in, in the 70s, it
might not have been at all like that.
S2 (06:19):
Well, in the 70s, uh, you know, we were still
very much at, at school and at home. So that
was sort of. Yeah.
S3 (06:26):
You weren't doing cafes? No, I wasn't doing cosmopolitans.
S2 (06:28):
Then when the food that I think about most, when
I think about my, you know, my time in Melbourne
as an adult is, uh, Vietnamese like fur and Victoria Street.
S3 (06:40):
Victoria Street.
S2 (06:40):
I remember, um, after I started my practice as a
psychologist in, um, Grattan Street, actually Drummond Street in Carlton
and I lived in, um, in Toorak, and I would
drive in, but I would. I would go for a
swim in the morning and then have a FIR in
Victoria Street and then go to work, and that just
(07:01):
seemed like I must have done that three times a week.
S3 (07:04):
Yeah.
S2 (07:04):
So that was, you know, um, I think of that
with Melbourne.
S3 (07:08):
And I think you've said that whilst your mum was
a very good cook, she wasn't a baker.
S2 (07:13):
No, no. Because Malaysian, uh, cakes are. Well, I think
now if you go to Malaysia now, I'm sure that
there are loads of all kinds of bakeries. But at
that time, um, growing up, the cakes were squidgy. Little, um,
steamed cakes, you know, using glutinous flour and cassava flour
and tapioca. So very, very different. So when we moved
(07:34):
to Australia, this strange thing called the oven in the,
in the kitchen was, was, you know, was very foreign.
S3 (07:41):
We, you didn't have an oven in Malaysia?
S2 (07:43):
I don't think.
S3 (07:44):
So. Yeah.
S2 (07:45):
I don't think so. I don't recall um, no I
would say not. No, no.
S3 (07:51):
And so then you went to university. You, with your
boyfriend at the time, decided to open a cafe in Hawthorn,
in Auburn Road, Hawthorn in Melbourne. And you made the cakes?
S2 (08:03):
Yes.
S3 (08:04):
How did you get into baking then? What made you
decide that baking was your thing?
S2 (08:09):
I shudder at our naivety then, and I mean knowing
now what I know, I just. I mean, how we
had that chutzpah to do that.
S3 (08:17):
Isn't that great? Because what age were you at that time?
S2 (08:19):
I was in my mid to late 20s. Mhm. Um,
and he was probably about the same. And it was,
it was just lunacy and naivety.
S3 (08:29):
Because he was a journalist. He was a journalist, a
psychology student at the time.
S2 (08:34):
I had just finished undergraduate psychology and I was taking
a break before going into to do postgraduate psychology. The
faculty had said to me that I was too young
and that it would be beneficial for me to get
some life experience, probably very sound advice, which I took. Um,
and I was actually a pharmaceutical rep at that time. And,
(08:54):
you know, it didn't really it was it didn't I mean,
it was great in some ways, you know, you were
given a car and a lot of flexibility. Um, but somehow,
you know, it was the food that felt like my calling.
S3 (09:08):
Yeah. And you made cakes for your the people that
you would visit or they made cakes for you. I
can't remember which it was.
S2 (09:15):
I mean, I never made anything, actually. I mean, literally,
I had no experience when I was a rep at
part of the, um, the drill was to talk to
doctors about new drugs. And what I found very quickly
is that if I arrange a lunch, I could would
have a captive audience, you know, that they would all
turn up. I believe this practice is no longer, um,
no longer legit. Yeah. Um, but at that time, it
(09:38):
was one of the ways you could be efficient as
well as, you know, to add a bit of levity
to the day. And over time, I felt I was
actually much, much more interested in what was for lunch. And, Yeah,
you know, the menu for lunch and choosing what was
for lunch then actually, you know, talking to the doctors
about the drugs.
S3 (09:57):
Yeah. And then the cafe you had a critic from
The Age, in fact, came in, just wandered in because
he was walking by? Yes. Had your chocolate cake and
described it in a. I think I've still got the
cutting actually in a in a review that said world's
best chocolate cake. Yes, I, I that tell me what
that did to the business and also to your confidence
(10:18):
as a baker, given that, as you say, you hadn't
been trained and nor had you really had a history
in your family of baking.
S2 (10:25):
Yes. Um, when he came in and when I mean,
he came in, he ate the cake. And he did
say we were given the heads up that he would
write something, but I didn't expect that it was going
to be on the front page of the Sunday Age.
It was at that time, um, with my picture in
it and and the cake and the title World's Best
(10:46):
Chocolate Cake. Controversial. Um, what did it do? I think
I didn't sleep properly for the next two years, you know,
for the remaining time that we had the business. Because, um,
that became. That really put us on the map. I mean,
the cafe was, despite our lack of experience, it, um,
(11:06):
it was ticking along quite nicely. Um, I, you know,
I it's not modesty saying this, but I think if
I had any talent, it was to employ the right people.
And I had a group of really lovely, a small
group of, of people who were very, very good cooks.
And I actually learned from them. And the chocolate cake. Yes.
I mean, it did put us on a, on the map. Um,
(11:28):
I would I lived above the store at the time
and um, after the article, we would make we making
that cake all around, all, all around the clock basically.
And I would as the last thing I did before
the cafe closed, I would put a batch in the oven,
set a timer for 90 minutes, go and grab something
(11:50):
to eat. Come back. Put another batch in the oven.
And up until, you know, going to bed, actually. So
it's got two eggs. Two eggs. And it does have flour,
but it's all made in one bowl with one whisk.
And I think that was its chief. Um, well, not
just the recipe, but actually it was. It's a really
reliable cake. In fact, Geoff Slattery at the time wrote
(12:12):
that when he made it, when I gave him the recipe,
he'd left out the eggs and it was still really nice.
So it's quite a forgiving cake.
S3 (12:20):
And it's in sweet your book.
S2 (12:21):
It is in sweet. And I was very certain that
I didn't want it named the World's Best Chocolate cake,
because I think you could. You know, disappointment is guaranteed
when you call something that. And in sweet, it's called
take home chocolate cake.
S3 (12:36):
Very modest.
S2 (12:36):
Well, actually, that's tied to, um, the experience when we
had the cafe that people would come in for lunch,
and then we made the cakes in lots of different sizes,
and they would then take away one of those cakes.
So yes, take away chocolate cake.
S3 (12:52):
And then you did it in reverse, didn't you? Because
then when you closed it from really exhaustion, you just
run out of steam for running that cafe. You wanted
to then go and get, I guess, proper training. And
you ended up eventually at Donovan's, where you were cooking
for 250 people. Again, you were kind of in the
(13:13):
pastry chef area. Tell us the key things that you
learned from from scaling up to that kind of big
that Donovan's just in case people aren't from Melbourne or
don't know. It is a big kind of seaside restaurant
destination restaurant.
S2 (13:27):
And it was at the time. Yes. Yeah.
S3 (13:29):
Tell us what you learned from that kind of scaling
up process.
S2 (13:32):
Good question. Um, I think to do things in stages,
I think at the cafe, because of my lack of
experience and training, I it was always felt like I
was just, you know, running on adrenaline. And although that's
definitely the case. Still with a restaurant of that size
at the time with Donovan's. The thing that I learned
(13:52):
was this idea of mise en place. Do you know
what that means? I mean, it's a French word for
everything in its place. And that was key. That was
absolutely key to that transition. So you would have let's
say you would have a plated dessert. It may have separate,
you know, five different components. So one part might be
(14:14):
ice cream. So you would have on your prep list
ice cream and all the things that you would do,
you know, to prepare that ice cream, make the custard,
you know, churn it, freeze it. And then you would have,
let's say, the sponge, you know, and, and a kind
of timetable of what could be prepared ahead of time
for assembly. And this idea of assembly, you know, you
(14:36):
have five different components already prepared through the day. And
then you would get this docket, you know, at dinner service.
And you would have to then, you know, um. Plate
it up. That's the essential difference, because at the cafe,
you make a cake and you either take home that
chocolate cake or you take a slice, you know? That's it.
S3 (14:55):
Yeah. And you, in terms of cooking. So you really
kind of perfected things there. And then you went to
London to be with David who's, who's your husband now?
And you got a job with Yotam Ottolenghi. Mhm. But
I guess you also had a doctorate in psychology at
that point. I guess that's fairly unusual because a lot
(15:18):
of cooks that you who particularly ones who kind of we,
we interview and know well have um come up and
haven't done that kind of like I guess university mind
work kind of career. Mhm. And yet you chose to
do something that's very hand work.
S2 (15:34):
Mhm.
S3 (15:34):
What was that. Always a tussle for you that you
wanted to do something creative with your hands. But you
also loved the intellectual. What made you choose I guess the,
the physicality of cooking over the the more head work
of psychology.
S2 (15:50):
Mhm. You know I never could I think there was
a point when I thought about cooking, just the physicality
of it, that that couldn't be sustained and that at
some point I might just have to leave. And probably
when I went back to do my, um, postgraduate, in fact,
I did the postgraduate while I was working at Donovan's. Mhm.
(16:10):
And that got me the registration to work as a psychologist.
And when I moved to London, what I realized was
that my Australian registration didn't allow me to practice as
a psychologist in London. And at that point I think
I really thought that, you know, now it's time to
settle down, you know, open a practice and, um, really
(16:32):
ensconce myself into the role of a psychologist. But there
was a, the red tape to convert the registration from
Australian to British was so, Uh, opaque. And so, um,
there was so much it was an 80 page manual
that I just thought I could not do it, but
(16:53):
I really wanted to practice. And the only other alternative
was to do a doctorate. So it was actually at
that point that I enrolled in the doctorate in London.
In London?
S3 (17:03):
Yes.
S2 (17:03):
But there was 3 to 4 months between when I
applied and between the doctorate starting. And I think David,
my husband, was quite worried that I was going to
be because I didn't know anybody at all, not one
single person. Um, so he.
S3 (17:18):
And he'd already been there.
S2 (17:20):
Or he'd been there for 15 years.
S3 (17:22):
Oh, right. Okay.
S2 (17:23):
Um, he's Australian as well. So he said all this,
you know, knowing that I do have this obviously kitchen work, um,
that I was I could do that. He suggested I
might visit this cute little store in Notting Hill down
the road from where we lived. So I went to
visit that place, and and it was an Ottolenghi deli.
And I thought, oh, I could work here. It just
(17:45):
seemed different to anything else. I'd, I, I'd worked anywhere
else I'd worked at. Um, so I wrote a letter.
An email. And your time got to me an hour later.
And then, you know, we were hours after that, we
were sitting, talking. And then that was a Friday afternoon,
(18:06):
I remember, and he said, you can start on Monday.
S3 (18:09):
And he had just the one store at that time.
S2 (18:12):
At that time, no, there was one in Islington and
there was one in Kensington. So three.
S3 (18:17):
So he was quite well known, but not on the
kind of global stratosphere that he's on now.
S2 (18:22):
No, he was the the cafes and delis were well
known for the kind of food and the aesthetic of it.
It was a very, you know, it was white and
and clean and clear, but then this sort of explosion
of colour for the salads and the windows with huge meringues.
So it had a very distinct vibe. And people did
come to sort of admire and to to eat there. Um,
(18:45):
but he wasn't well known. He hadn't. I don't think
he had his column in the Guardian at that time.
S3 (18:51):
Um, and you started off chopping and then very quickly changed.
Tell us that story. Yes.
S2 (18:56):
I think, you know, I came away feeling that that
was the end of my pastry. I was going to,
you know, do settle down into psychology. But when I
saw that window of salads, I thought that was so
different to anything I'd seen, you know, in, in Melbourne
at the time. I mean, of course, now I come,
I'm in Australia and I think, oh, it's just so
(19:17):
the food is just amazing. It's just punches above its weight.
And I mean, it's, it's it's just amazing.
S3 (19:23):
Anyway, in Australia, in Australia.
S2 (19:25):
Yeah. But at that time, you know, these salads, these
huge platters of salad, it was really like an Aladdin's cave.
And so I said, could I be in the salad section?
And I worked at that time with Sami Tamimi, who
was the head chef at the restaurants then. And yes.
So my job and I mean, although the delis were small,
(19:47):
loads and loads of people would come and queue, there
would be queues. So we had to make huge platters
and it wouldn't be, um, it wouldn't be uncommon for
me to be chopping, you know, two boxes of butternut
squash a day. And I and I remember, um, you know,
walking home, um, with blisters, feeling like my hands were
(20:09):
so sore and and really feeling sorry for myself that,
you know, there I was, you know, a registered psychologist
and everything. And here I was walking home with blistered hands.
Blistered fingers.
S3 (20:20):
Yeah. And then so you you really grown literally with,
with his success and all of you have kind of
got your own own success through that. It's a lovely
kind of flowering, isn't it? Yes. Um, your role, how
has your role changed? Because you essentially develop recipes, um,
is that right?
S2 (20:40):
That's right. I, um. So when it was time for
me to start the doctorate, I said to Yotam, I'm
leaving now. Thank you for everything. And he said, well,
you're not studying all the time. Surely you can, you know,
still stay with us. So, my, there has never been
sort of roles that I've stepped into. They've always been
roles that have been created because of the circumstances, whether
(21:04):
it was me going to do a doctorate or taking
time out to have my children. Um, and I think
it was down to your mum's openness, you know, to, to, to, um,
that fluidity to expand with me in a way. Um,
both of us, I guess, being willing to take a
(21:25):
leap into the unknown. There's never been a role of
recipe developer at that time. He just said, um, well,
if you're not working on the weekends, we have this
little warehouse in Camden. You could come and just, you know,
play around and make a few cakes, and so it
sort of developed very organically.
S3 (21:52):
Listeners might not realize that you still do see some
patients as a psychologist every week. Yes. Um, how does
how does that influence your baking and how does your
baking influence your psychology?
S2 (22:05):
I think for a long time I really saw that
there were two parallel tracks that never met. They were very,
very separate. And I did have this fear that my
patients would know that I was really a baker, you know,
in my like a really I moonlighted as a baker
just because I felt that maybe they would think I
wasn't so serious about my work with them. Um, how
(22:29):
does it inform, you know, for a long time, I
would say it didn't. It was almost like I needed
I you know, what you were asking before? There was
a part of me that was very tuned in to
the more cerebral aspects of psychology. But then I felt
that I needed the more physical, creative aspects of cooking.
But now, if I have to think about it, I
think the the confluence would be the sense of a
(22:50):
process happening and patience and presence. This idea that you
really have to be tuned in to your patient, and
you really have to be tuned in to what you're baking.
I mean, yes, you could whip up a sponge and
not be overly focused, but. But part of the pleasure
I think of baking is that focus, that it takes
(23:11):
you away from that white noise in your head, and
that you could, with your hands and your senses, you know,
bring yourself to that. And I think for me, that's
sort of the enjoyable part of it. So I would
think those three P's probably. Yeah.
S3 (23:27):
And do you is it something that you overtly advise
patients who need to get out of their head and
perhaps do some stress relief? Do you do you tell
them to bake or to cook?
S2 (23:37):
Never, Never. Yeah. The college that I chose to do
the doctorate in. Um, I had been trained in Australia
in psychodynamic psychotherapy. And when I was going to do
the doctorate to satisfy the requirement for registration, I. I
wasn't so much interested in what kind of psychology it
(23:58):
was in my head. I was psychoanalytic, psychodynamic all the way. Um,
but I chose it for convenience. The college for convenience.
And I also loved Regent's Park with all the topiary.
So I really chose the institution for the train line
and the topiary. Yeah. I would have to say, um,
so that took me that college was helmed by a, um,
(24:22):
an existential, very well known existential practitioner called Ernesto Spinelli.
Although I, it took me many, many years of the,
of the doctorate to, um, to see the relevance of
existential psychology. So in the sense when I'm with my patients,
I'm not advising anything. I'm just I guess I'm listening
(24:44):
intently and maybe I'm maybe echoing back to them what
they feel that they're saying, what I'm hearing, what they're
saying about their lives. And in it, I might I
might be tune in in a psychodynamic level to their
history or some of their unconscious processes. But I'd also
very much be tuned in because of my existential studies,
(25:06):
tuned in to how they make a meaningful life, how
how they live. What do they do that makes them
makes their lives meaningful? So I wouldn't be offering advice,
you know, rather than, I would say, listening intently and
echoing back.
S3 (25:22):
And that brings us to your book, baking and the
Meaning of Life, in which you talk about existentialism and,
and that, um, thread of psychology. Mhm. What's really fascinating
about the book and what makes it really magical, I think,
is that you do combine your psychology and your understanding
of what baking does for community and for relationships with
(25:46):
100 recipes. Yes. What made you decide to bring? As
you said, they were parallel train tracks. What made you
decide to bring them together and what what were you
trying to achieve in doing that?
S2 (25:59):
I think over the years of doing the column, I,
I'd had, you know, um, feedback column for the column
for Good Weekend, I have always thought that it would
be really lovely to compile the, the recipes together. You know,
sometimes if I've been worried about a recipe not being
not hitting the spot, my husband would, you know, ground
(26:21):
me by saying, look, don't worry, it's fish and chip
paper the next day. You know, if I fill a recipe.
Hasn't quite, you know, made it. Um, but but I
did think how nice it would be to to compile.
So in my head and actually, in reality, I'd had
a number of publishers contact me since publishing. Sweet um,
to to to do a cookbook, and I never really
(26:43):
felt that there was a real urge. I didn't feel
the urge to do that, um, until the penny dropped
in in one one on one particular week. It was
in 2023. There was a spate of natural disasters that year.
Quite unnerving. The deadliest one was an earthquake that hit
(27:06):
Turkey and Syria, and we were all watching on very
helpless and and grief stricken for them. And there was
a British food writer who decided that she wanted to
galvanise the baking community and to put together a bake
sale to raise money for the British Red cross, who
were who were at that time, um, you know, looking
(27:29):
after the, um, uh, the victims. And we had two
days to prepare for it, and it was all done
through a kind of Bush Telegraph Instagram style. And we
were to deliver everything to this pub in north London
very early on the Saturday morning. So I'd made, you know,
cupcakes and cornbread and muffins and, and I was delivering
(27:51):
these goods, um, very early on the Saturday morning with
my kids in the back and my husband driving, and
we were balancing these boxes of cakes in, and we
dropped them off to this pub in north London. And
when we got back into the car, my husband said
to me, he's a bit of a numbers man, I guess.
And he said, that's just such an inefficient way to
raise money. Wouldn't it have been better if everybody dropped £20?
(28:15):
And I thought, you know, he's right. I mean, it
was very inefficient. But what he wasn't tuned into and
what he wasn't privy to because he didn't he was
waiting in the car, was this sense of pride that
we all had this sense of competence, competence, the sense
of autonomy that we had, that we we were doing
something beyond our our beyond what we our needs in
(28:39):
solidarity to these people thousands of miles away. And the
community was of sort of the community of bakers, the
community of north Londoners, who felt very proud that this
was happening in their local pub, um, and the sense
of belonging to a bigger cause, to have a bigger cause,
and all the way home from north London to west London,
(29:02):
where we lived, I, you know, was sort of championing
this idea that it's not just cake, that it was
something more that we were offering, um, and that, you know, chiefly,
nobody needs to eat cake. But it's also that joy
of something that that wasn't for sustenance. It was just
for the pure joy of it. And that that wasn't trivial.
S3 (29:23):
Yeah, I think that's lovely. The other thing that really
does come through in the book is that, you know,
we're in a kind of time of loneliness epidemic. We're
all glued to our smartphones. We're all kind of talking
about AI and all these kind of things that are
going to make us even more separate from each other.
In a sense, what you're saying is that things like baking,
(29:47):
it's the way in which we drop in to see
someone drop a cake in when they're ill, or when
they're upset because they've had a breakup, or when they're
celebrating because something's happened. Yes. Do we kind of need
it more than ever at this point in history? Do
you think?
S2 (30:05):
I agree, I think it's become so atomized, you know, um, through,
you know, our smartphones and devices and, and I, I yes,
I think that it's a baking is a unique is
uniquely a vehicle to convey those things that that in
in one bake you can say I've, I've, I've spent
(30:25):
two hours making this and it's for you.
S3 (30:27):
So you say all these things non-verbally.
S2 (30:30):
Exactly. I think that you do say it just, you know,
I mean, there was a time when I, um, uh,
a friend of mine whose husband was, was unwell and
was had going was going through chemotherapy, and he had
his treatments, you know, organised and over many months we'd,
I'd drop off, you know, lasagna soup and, and, um, salads.
(30:54):
And they were very appreciative. But I think there was
one point when I, he was craving an apple pie
and I dropped that over and, you know, it was
because it was completely unnecessary. But it also in just
looking at the pie, he would have known that I'd
spent quite a bit of time in a focused attention to,
to make him that pie. It was what it represented.
(31:15):
So not just the comfort of eating the pie, but.
But what what the act actually represented.
S3 (31:20):
Yep. So true. Um, you give a lot of great
tips in your books and I think in your columns
for good weekend as well. I think some recipe writers
aren't as specific as you. Is that. Is that just
a part of your nature, or is that come from
trial and error, from learning? I mean, there's nothing like
a weekly column to teach you what to do right
(31:42):
and wrong. Yes. Tell us why you're. Because I think
they're very useful. Those little tips you give.
S2 (31:47):
Mhm. Um, many people say that they they cook, but
they don't bake. And I think it's this, they've, I
think when they say that they're tuning into this feeling
of baking as being inflexible, being rule governed and inflexible.
And actually, it's true. I think there are some rules
that do make you a more, um, confident baker. But
(32:08):
it's being able to say, well, if you can't find this,
use that. I think, I think it can reassure you
that you know it. It's this isn't just this, not
just this one way. And it's going to fail if
you don't have just this ingredient. And just to kind
of loosen things up a bit. Yeah. Um, but also,
(32:29):
I think the frustration when you, um, when you go
to the trouble to shop for your ingredients and then
to make it and to feel like one little, one
little part that you're unsure of stumps you. And then
it either makes you it either gives you the jitters and,
you know, you lose the confidence to bake it to
(32:50):
its sort of full capacity. Um, and just sometimes that
voice just to say, don't worry if it looks curdled,
just keep on. It will be fine. Sometimes that's all
you need to keep going.
S3 (33:03):
So true. Right. I've been at that position myself. One
of the other things, really looking through the book that
struck me was all the color and all the ingredients
that that our guests are very multicultural. You've got a
lot of matcha. You've got persimmon. Um, tamarind. Is that
a is that a very, um, deliberate way of talking
(33:24):
to the world as it is now? Or is that
just that they add good color or taste, or is
that your experience? What's that?
S2 (33:34):
I think it's a bit of both. I don't start
out with that idea of, oh, what magical or what
esoteric ingredient I can use, because I think it's it's
got to work. Um, I think it's lovely to add
an interest and to, um, to excite, you know, with,
with something a bit unusual, but not gratuitously. I think that,
(33:55):
you know, when it is gratuitous, it's really about how
clever the writer is rather than how useful the bake is.
And I think there must have been a time, I
don't know how many years ago, when I really prided
myself on being a clever baker, and I, I, I've,
I've kind of I feel like I've developed into someone
(34:16):
who is more, uh, focused on delivering that joy of
a recipe that works, you know, rather than, aw, look
how clever this recipe is.
S3 (34:26):
Yeah, You also have, um, a lot of options for
vegans or dairy free. Is that really a non-negotiable in
2025 that you need to give those options?
S2 (34:37):
Yeah, I think it is. And I'll be the first
to say I, I, I'm it's not my forte. So
I like it when a bake is naturally vegan or
naturally gluten free rather than or how can I veganize
or make this gluten free? Because I think also there
are loads of people who are dedicated to that and
I leave it to them. But if it does happen
(34:58):
that you know something is gluten free or vegan, I think, great,
I will completely embrace that.
S3 (35:04):
Yeah. And what have you been doing your good weekend
column now for? I think about seven, seven or so,
up to eight years. Nearly eight years. Yes. What what
have you learned from that. From the the kind of like.
Because that's that's yes. Pretty regular.
S2 (35:18):
It is regular. I've learned a lot. A lot. Um,
and in fact, I'm not sure that I would have
really put together this book without that, the rigors of it.
I think the the devil is in the detail. I mean,
you know, a comma can make a difference between interpretation.
You know how it's interpreted. And I know that you
(35:38):
know this very well, having been my editor. Um, the
other thing is also this, um, the joy that I
feel when I see. So the recipe comes out on
a Saturday and someone's tagged me on Instagram that they've
made it. It's on their table on Sunday. I think
that has that has made me realize actually the power
(36:01):
of the and accessible bake. So I'm more tuned in
to how accessible is this you know, to make if
could you make this on a Sunday if if you
get the recipe on a Saturday. So you may it
may necessitate a trip to the supermarket. But maybe you
don't need to be online ordering a special ingredient. Um,
(36:21):
so it has informed me. My my, my sort of
steering towards more, more accessible baking.
S3 (36:30):
And yet in the book you've also got some amazing
I know that Matilda's cake, some amazing ones that do
take that are going to take you half a day.
S2 (36:38):
Yes, because I think there are still people who enjoy
a project bake and, you know, a lot of people
in the same way that people have said, oh, no,
baking frightens me. Many people have said that to me.
The same number of people have also said baking is
what I go to to calm me as a kind
of therapy. And both I, I guess I'm more tuned
in to the, um, to the therapy side of it
(37:01):
because it is so embodied, it's so sensorial. It is effortful.
So you do need to focus, but you need to
focus just enough so that you're, again, you know, um,
distracted from the white noise in your head. Um, but
it's not so challenging that it's stressful. So it's that perfect,
that sweet spot where, you know, if you want something
(37:23):
to take your mind off a worry or something that
you're ruminating over. I think baking is a it's a
low stakes kind of activity for you to, to do that.
S3 (37:33):
And the book is called baking and the Meaning of Life.
S2 (37:37):
Oh, no, I think I know what you're going to
ask me.
S3 (37:39):
Yes. What is the meaning of life? Helen Goh.
S2 (37:41):
The 42 of the book. I, you know, I break
the book up into sections that are called, uh, giving,
receiving and sharing Rituals and traditions, nurturing, celebrating, um, community
and belonging and continuity and remembrance. And I don't know
(38:02):
whether you mean for me to say it in one word,
but I think those chapter headings for me all together
represent what it might be to live a good life. Um, well,
it certainly gives me a lot of meaning when I
look into what. Yeah, if I look into what has
given my life meaning, I think those chapter headings probably
(38:24):
capture something of that.
S3 (38:26):
Yeah. Well, congratulations, Helen, and thank you for coming on.
Good weekend talks.
S2 (38:31):
Thank you so much, Katrina.
S1 (38:34):
That was cookbook author and psychologist Helen Goh in conversation
with good Weekend senior writer Katrina Strickland on the latest
Good Weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember
to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts
and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations. Good Weekend
Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald
(38:54):
and The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support
independent journalism. Search, subscribe. Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?
This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall,
with technical assistance from Kai Wong and editing from Tim Mummery.
Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head
(39:14):
of audio and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
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