May 23, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, we talk to Hugh Allen. Allen, of course, was made executive chef of iconic three-hat Melbourne restaurant, Vue de Monde, at the tender age of 23. The son of a nurse and a paediatrician – both terrible cooks, it must be said – Allen was once marked at high school as a "struggling" student, but through food, he became a star. Allen just turned 30, yet has already enjoyed stints under chefs such as Neil Perry, Shannon Bennett and the esteemed René Redzepi from Copenhagen institution, Noma. He’s been a popular guest judge on MasterChef Australia, and last but not least, is opening his own Melbourne restaurant later this year, named Yiaga. To celebrate Good Weekend's annual Food & Wine issue, Allen joins senior writer Konrad Marshall for a chat about his life and career – and what’s new in the restaurant industry right now.
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S1 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:29):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Hugh Allan. Allan, of course, is the executive chef of
iconic three hat restaurant Vue de Monde. I profiled him
two years ago for the magazine when he shared his
interesting origin story. Allan is the son of a nurse
and a paediatrician, both terrible cooks. It must be said,
(00:49):
and he was marked at high school as a bit
of a teenage delinquent. Yet in food, he became a wunderkind.
He only just turned 30 and yet already has enjoyed
stints under chefs such as Neil Perry, Shannon Bennett and
the esteemed René Redzepi from Copenhagen institution Noma. He's been
a popular guest judge on MasterChef and last but not least,
(01:12):
is opening his own restaurant later this year named Jaga.
The annual food issue of Good Weekend is on newsstands
right now, so Alan felt like a brilliant fit for
a chat about his life and career and what's new
in the restaurant industry right now. So welcome, Hugh.
S2 (01:27):
Thanks for having me.
S1 (01:28):
It's great to see you again. I think we spoke
a couple of years ago. Yeah. Um, you were having
a great time. I just wanted to start off with
something strange. I've got a photo to share with you.
I'll describe it for listeners. I took it last week.
I was chatting with Australian portrait artist Vincent Fantauzzo. It's
(01:49):
a black and white sketch of you, done by the
artist and a gorgeous image. But you don't look too happy, mate.
Why so glum?
S2 (01:56):
I don't know. I don't know. Um.
S1 (01:58):
What was that for?
S2 (02:00):
So that was for. I'm not sure if he's public
about the end goal for it, because there's sort of
deeper meaning behind, uh, sort of the series he's doing.
But yeah, it's just, um, I've met him a few times,
and he's, you know, he's a really amazing artist, obviously.
And and when he asked to, um, to a little
drawing of me, of course, you know, I was quite
actually humbled by it and. Yeah, but, you know, I actually.
S1 (02:23):
Have you seen that before or am I sharing it?
S2 (02:25):
I've seen the first time I've seen, like, glimpse of it. Um,
I don't think I've seen it finished. Um, but, yeah,
I do look a bit moody, don't I? Yeah.
S1 (02:32):
We'll see how we go. It's, um, he explained to
me that sort of hopefully part of a book. And
there'll be a bunch of other chefs involved. He's Matt
Moran is his good friend. And then I think his
mates with all of them really. Shane Delia.
S2 (02:44):
He's I think I think Neil and a bunch. Yeah.
So yeah.
S1 (02:47):
Very connected to food. Anyway, that was just a bit
of an icebreaker. Um, how did you find food? Can
you let listeners in on that? Because I remember doing
your story and expecting you to tell me. Oh, I
learned at my mother's hip. I was never far from
her apron. Or there was, like a nonna in your
life that imbued this love of food. But really, you
were like one of three brothers, and your parents just
(03:10):
needed to load you up with old El Paso kits.
So how did you get into it?
S2 (03:16):
Um, I've always I always loved, you know, sort of
creative things. I think, you know, if I wasn't a chef,
I would want to be, you know, an architect or
furniture maker or ceramicist or something like that. I've always
liked the idea of craft and makers, um, even when
I was a kid. So school, you know, I enjoyed school.
I enjoyed being at school, I enjoyed I'd be being
(03:37):
with my friends. But yeah, I didn't really enjoy the classroom,
I guess. Um, so I knew I wanted to do something,
and I knew that was sort of almost a similar
workplace to an office or to to university. So I
knew I didn't want to go down that route. And
restaurants always just appealed to me. I always loved if we,
you know, we didn't really go out to restaurants much
at all. But when we did, it was if you
could see into the kitchen. I always loved sort of
(03:59):
those glimpses into the kitchen and the idea of taking
sort of a raw product and and turning it into
something really special and, and cooking it to sort of
work with the ingredient was always, I think, such a
beautiful thing. And then.
S1 (04:13):
I mean, it was quite obsessive at a, at an
early age, like Ratatouille is the favorite movie.
S2 (04:17):
I mean, I mean, it sounds tacky, but honestly, Ratatouille
was was a big part of like, like I became
obsessed with that movie and I think I was like
11 or 12 when it came out. Um, because I
think it came out in 2006 or 7 now. Um,
so I was like, yeah, maybe ten, 11 or 12
whenever it came out and I was already into food
(04:37):
and cooking. I loved watching Jamie Oliver on TV and, um,
I just thought he was, you know, a really cool guy.
And and. Yeah. And then Ratatouille came out, and I
just became obsessed with it. Like, I honestly could read.
I could watch that movie and say word for word
before they say the word, like, that's how much I've.
And you know, I used to watch it, but yeah,
I just loved kitchens. I loved the idea of it.
I loved the concept of, of, you know, the creative element,
(05:01):
the nourishing element. Um, and yeah, it's always just appealed
to me. So when I did work experience at school,
as you have to do in year 9 or 10, um,
I did it at Rockpool and they offered me an
apprenticeship and that was it.
S1 (05:15):
I want to get to that in a second. But
first I wanted to talk about that, um, that juvenile delinquency. No,
that's that's way too strong a word for it. But, um,
you did sort of explain how, um, you weren't fully
immersed in school. You enjoyed it, but you went to.
So for Sydney listeners, you went to University High School,
which is a pretty academic sort of public school close
(05:36):
to the CBD. Um, but you struggled a bit, or
maybe you didn't give it your all and ended up
in this. What was it, the two year program. What's
the two cool program?
S2 (05:46):
Yeah, I think I mean, I got out of it
pretty quickly. Um, it's. Yeah. Like school. I think for me,
if I applied myself to something, I could always do
quite well at something. Yeah. But I just, you know,
it's also on me. I just firstly, I really struggled
to understand things at school. Like, if you like algebra
or something like that, honestly, you could have just been going,
you know, blah blah, blah, blah blah. Like it just
(06:07):
meant nothing to me, like I didn't. Not one part
of it I could understand. And I think because of
my struggle to understand things, my reaction to become was
to become a bit of a, you know, just distraction. And. Yeah. No. Yeah.
Like I wasn't I was never rude. I was never
a bully like I was, I was I've, I think
I've always been like a, you know like even as
a kid, like quite a gentle person. But I became yeah,
(06:30):
I just wasn't engaged in it when I wasn't engaged.
You become a distraction. And, um, for me, it was
just about getting through it versus actually, like, applying myself. Um.
And I knew I just it's just. Yeah, I just
didn't enjoy it. So the sort of classroom element, I
enjoyed school and I actually have, like, huge respect for
teachers and stuff, especially as I got older. Um, but yeah,
(06:51):
just I think because of that lack of sort of
applying myself, I ended up in this sort of program
which was was called To Cool, which was, I think, honestly,
it's a it's a good thing for schools to have
it's sort of taking kids that maybe aren't sort of
applying themselves or having a bit of, you know, seen
as could be going down a wrong path to, you know,
(07:13):
get people that, you know, I think we had police
and stuff come in and talk about like the effects
of drug use and stuff. And I've never taken a,
like a drug in my life, you know, like I
to this day, like it's just not something.
S1 (07:23):
You weren't the kid coming to school with a knife.
S2 (07:25):
Not at all. Like, you know, like I, you know,
maybe I was a bit a bit of distraction, but, yeah, I've,
you know, I've never been into any of that kind
of stuff. So. Yeah, I think I was maybe a
few sessions, I was like, I think I can't remember
how I got out of it, but I think I
spoke to someone. I was like, I don't know how
I end up in that, but um, but yeah, so
cooking was, was my was my sort of way out.
S1 (07:44):
Well, tell us about that experience at Rockpool. You mentioned
it was like a work experience thing, which usually ends
after a week, but did you just instantly know, like, oh, I'm,
I'm sold. This is where I'm supposed to be?
S2 (07:54):
Yeah, so I did I actually did front and back
of house. Um, just out of I think that's what
they wanted me to do. And and it was good.
Like I got to understand sort of both sides of,
of the restaurant. And obviously both are almost equally as important.
And so yeah, I just really at the start actually
the first few days was, was I was a bit like, like, well,
(08:14):
I don't know if I like it was like, you know,
you go from school, you kind of loosely have to
have some sort of structure, but then to a workplace where,
you know, you do have to suddenly like you have
strict structure, especially in restaurants. You know, you have service.
You have to be, you know, you have to be groomed.
You have to be on time. You have to be
following a certain protocol rules that the restaurant has and
(08:35):
how whether it's in the front of house, how you
you top up order or how you, you know, and
as a kid that's I was like, it's a bit,
you know, it's quite structured and I was it was a,
I was a bit like, I don't know if I
could want to be working something so strict and structured. Sure. Um,
even though, like, now I'm like, that wasn't at all.
That was. I was scared. But, um. But yeah, after
a few days and by the end of the week, um,
(08:57):
I really sort of connected more with, with the team
and especially the chefs. Yeah. Um, and there was a
chef there who actually went to my high school, and
he was much older. He was probably ten years older
than me. Um, so he he also went to uni
and we sort of connected. We had 1 or 2
teachers that we mutually knew, and he was one of
the sous chefs at the time, and he was really
keen to, to get me on as an apprentice. So
(09:18):
he spoke to the management there and they offered me
apprenticeship at the end of it. So I finished the
rest of the school year and then January, whatever year
it was, I don't even know. Um, I was 16,
so I started I started the apprenticeship.
S1 (09:31):
It was a steep learning curve. I remember you telling
me like somebody would say, go get, go get a
bunch of tarragon or something from the fridge, and you'd
have to kind of Google it on your phone on
the way there.
S2 (09:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Literally like you, you, you really go into
like such basic stuff now. And I think this is
kind of before I mean, it was phones were around,
I don't know, I can't remember how smartphones were, but like,
not now we have like everything's social media, like Instagram
wasn't a thing. So it's like where people just pumped
with information and content and stuff like that. Now where
you might have more of an understanding like still to
(10:04):
even I was wasn't that long ago. Books and media
was kind of how you learned stuff about or, you know,
shows like Jamie Oliver of how you knew what things were.
And because my parents weren't, you know, they'll, you know,
they worked, they'll both work really hard workers and in,
in hospitals, food wasn't like the key thing. It was
more just fuel and then to get us to our
different sports or, um, after school. So yeah, I didn't
(10:26):
know what tarragon or chervil or any of the like
besides like rosemary. Um, you know, I would have to
be like, be scrummaging through the, the fridges and trying
to Google things. When they asked me for something.
S1 (10:36):
You eventually ended up at Vaudémont learning under Shannon Bennett.
Like starting out in the basement at first and then
and then upstairs and kind of performed exceptionally well. I
actually just wanted to skip ahead from that to how
did you get from there to Noma? And this is,
as I said in the introduction, the famed Copenhagen institution
that's won best restaurant in the world a record five times.
S2 (11:00):
It was always a goal, I think, and I've always
had sort of I think I've always had like a
goal of where where I want to, you know, I
don't want to say like I had a five year plan,
but like, I've always kind of seen like, okay, by
that time I'd like to be able to do that.
How am I going to get to that and sort
of just going down that route? Um, and I knew
I've always wanted to work in whatever field is like
(11:20):
the best, like at the best or the highest level
of that field. I think it's the same if you're
a soccer player. Of course, you wanted to end up
playing for one of the big you know, I don't
know anything about soccer, but, you know, Champions League or
Premier League or one of the thing, or if you're
footy player you want to play for, you know, you
want to play AFL like so for me as a chef,
like of course I wanted to work at the. um,
(11:41):
at the highest level or and obviously at that time,
you know, as you said, no one is winning world's
best restaurant multiple times. And, you know, they sort of
had this, like massive crazy, uh, movement, which, you know,
still by far the most influential movement, um, since, you know,
since the modernist movement. Um, yeah. So I just wanted
to be part of that. I knew some chefs that
(12:02):
had been there and worked there, and it just the
whole thing sort of sounded just magic to me. And then. Yeah,
so I finished my apprenticeship and then I just the
first thing I did was get a visa for a
working holiday for, for Denmark. I didn't have the job yet.
And then I just went me and a mate that
went to TAFE with we went together and yeah, I emailed,
(12:25):
sort of cold emailed the restaurant. I said just sort of,
I'm in town. Just loved swinging by. I gave a
bit of a, you know, worked here kind of thing
and did this and I'd love to come and just
be able to hang out. Obviously, I know you're probably not.
You're not hiring because it's Noma, but I'd love to
hang out. And, you know, I think I'd like, put
a really exaggerated, um, detailed letter of, you know, why
(12:47):
I should be able to come and spend a few
weeks there kind of thing.
S1 (12:50):
Staging.
S2 (12:51):
Staging? Yeah. But like most stages they do was at
that time was multiple months. Um, so that that I
didn't actually have I don't think even I had the
money to do multiple months that, um, without, you know,
solid income. So, yeah, that was the plan. So then
I did did the couple weeks, they said, yeah, sure. Um,
and yeah, when I was in the couple of weeks,
(13:12):
I was, I was really just up in the prep kitchen.
I didn't really like, see or do much, but I
was like, ah, like, how do I get noticed? Because
I want to get a job here. But like, I
was like, I can't see getting a job. And so
I just kept like sort of pestering. And then they
were doing the pop up in Australia. So Noma Australia
was happening. And that was, I think in 2016, the
(13:33):
very start of 2016 or end of 2015. And, You know.
So it's been a few weeks in Copenhagen at the
end of the year and then in January, so a
few weeks after, they're going to do the pop up
in Australia. And so I was just like, oh, well,
I'll be back in Australia, right. Um, I wasn't actually
going to be back in Australia. I'd obviously just moved
to Denmark. I had a lease, you know, I had
my working holiday visa and.
S1 (13:53):
It was in Sydney. Right. And from Melbourne, so. Oh yeah,
I'll be around.
S2 (13:56):
Yeah. I was like, I'll be around. I didn't even
specify that I want. Yeah. I think at that time
I'd been to Sydney like once in my life. Um,
so then yeah, I went to Sydney, I think I
stayed at a hostel or something for, like, for the
pop up and did most of the pop up. And
then during that I sort of obviously built more of
a connection with the team. And then, um, I was like, oh,
you know, I really want a job here, guys. And
then I moved back to Copenhagen, um, still without a
(14:18):
job there. And then like a week later, the chef
messaged me on Instagram or Facebook or whatever it was saying, hey,
we've got a position if you can get to Copenhagen.
And I was like, yeah, I'll be there next week
kind of thing. But yeah, I was already in Copenhagen.
I was like two minutes from the restaurant. Um, and
that was it. And then it was amazing.
S1 (14:36):
Awesome. So anyone who's watched The Bear would have seen
glimpses of kind of the pressure involved in, um, in
being in a high end kitchen. Um, you've spoken before
about Redzepi and his passion for detail. I love this
thing that you told. I think it was, um, what
about our food writer, Danny Vaillant? Um, that he would
(14:57):
apparently talk about the difference between an a between ape
and human genetics as being only 1.5%, but that 1.5%
is like the difference between shitting in a forest and
flying to the moon. What was he like? Um, at
his best and his worst when it came to kind
(15:18):
of enforcing that detail, making sure that everything was just
on point?
S2 (15:23):
Yeah, I mean, I can't say bad thing about Rene, honestly.
I know, like, he's he's he was you know, he's
he is such a pioneer and I just I honestly
respect pioneers in a field so much, like the level
of commitment and detail and and drive is put into
the industry. And, um, you know, I think it's something
(15:43):
that should be really celebrated. And I think he deserves
everything that he's, he's gotten and all the accolades and
achievements and credibility. Um, and yeah, it's such like it
was an obsessive workplace, but everyone was on board, you know,
it was like, we, we, we all, we all wanted
to for the place to succeed. We all wanted to
have the dishes at the highest quality level. We all
(16:06):
wanted to make sure the guests really felt like this
ultra special, like sort of, you know, that sounds wanky,
but like this transformative experience, um, and that, you know,
people left Noma thinking, I've never been in a restaurant
like that. Like that was just a cut above, um,
almost like, you know, a magical experience. And so we're all, like,
(16:26):
heavily invested in that. So obviously it was, you know,
it was a lot of hard work and it was,
you know, it was every day was a hustle. Um,
but he he was, you know, he was like the coach.
He was like the the driving force. Um, and there
was there was a huge team behind everything. It was
a creative team. There's a test kitchen. There's a fermentation team.
There's the service kitchen, there's the interns. Like it was
such a such a beast of an operation. Um, but
(16:49):
I think everyone was really, you know, just so goal
focused and so. And really, really, really, really wanted to
make this place something like, you know, that, you know,
world's best. So, yeah, I think there's, there's few people
that are true pioneers in that sense. And I think, yeah,
here's just a sort of a remarkable chef, really.
S1 (17:10):
So he had some great experiences there. And then you're
handed the reins at Vue de Monde when you're 23.
S2 (17:17):
Yeah, I was 23. Just about to turn 24. Um, yeah.
So finished. Yeah. I would like to stay longer, but yeah,
I was there for about three, three and a half years, um,
which is, but I also did the Noma Mexico pop
up and obviously Australia and number one and number 2.0.
So it was it was a really like it was
honestly amazing, perfect time to be there because it was
(17:38):
a big spread of things. And then yeah, came back
home just 20 end of 2018. Started 2019.
S1 (17:44):
The current manager at the restaurant or actually is is
Hugo still the current?
S2 (17:49):
Yeah. Hugo. Hugo.
S1 (17:50):
So he I remember he said to me that like
he was one of a few who just kind of
openly doubted that you were up to it at, at
the time, not so much you, but just you were
too young for the job. Um, how did you feel
about it? Like imposter syndrome? Or what was it like
being like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna be in charge
(18:11):
of this flagship restaurant.
S2 (18:13):
Yeah, I think I think, honestly, Shannon knew how old
I was. Um, but obviously I was, you know, we
knew each other from my apprenticeship, so we had that
sort of, I guess, more personal connection. Um, it was
it was pretty full on. Again. The team is so amazing.
And some of the guys that were there are still there. Um,
the management team. So and I knew them a lot
(18:34):
of them from my apprenticeship. So, you know, you go,
for example, Chris is the head chef. They've been there
ten plus years. Um, which is for hospitality is a
is a it's a very long, long time. So yeah,
Hugo was sort of said which you know, he's very
open about. He called channels like he's not the right person,
he's too young, blah blah, blah, um, which, you know,
(18:54):
is totally fair. And, you know, it was. Yeah. A
really it's a big, big position. It's a big restaurant. It's,
you know, it's it's heavily, you know, judged and, and
there's a big team. And I'd never been a manager before. Um,
you know, it's my first time I was ever I
hadn't even been a sous chef before, you know, like,
it was. It was. I'd gone from a chef to party.
S1 (19:16):
Yeah.
S2 (19:16):
To a to running a team and I. Yeah. So
it was a bit of a learning curve I think
at the start, um, I sort of just went with
the flow and then I didn't really. Yeah. You know,
there was definitely things that I was probably, you know,
now would be more mature about. Um, and I definitely
lacked some maturity. I think I was pretty mature for
(19:37):
my age, but yeah, I definitely lacked experience and maturity
as a leader, for sure. Um, but in terms of
the creative, the creative or just being a chef in general,
I guess I was young and naive, so you could
just do things like I didn't really I didn't really
think too much about that side of it. I just was,
was doing things and some of the stuff, you know,
I look, I think I was pretty average and some
(19:58):
of the stuff I think, you know, that was I
think that was pretty good for someone that was 23, 24.
And I think over the last I've been there now, what,
six years. And it's evolved and I think, you know,
gotten better. And I think we've made a much better,
you know, workplace. And I think we did a really
good culture. And I'm sort of proud of that sense.
But it's definitely not, you know, not perfect. And I'm
still I'm still I've just turned 30 like two weeks ago.
(20:20):
Three weeks ago. So happy.
S1 (20:21):
Birthday.
S2 (20:21):
Thanks. Um, so I guess I'm still a young leader
in that sense. But yeah, I think it was it
was it was tricky. And obviously a lot of people
didn't want me to have the position and some people left. Um,
but I think it's all, you know, I've also got
great relationships with everyone from that. So. Yeah.
S1 (20:50):
The last time I spoke with you was about to
undergo a big renovation. Um, I'm sure that would have
been nice to be able to kind of put some
of your own stamp on this place. Because when you
take over a job like that, you're a little bit
of a custodian, aren't you? Yeah. There's a there's a.
S2 (21:07):
I still feel like a custodian of you. Yeah. For sure.
Like it's had multiple chefs. It's it's had multiple venues.
It's had um locations. Um, which I think that's part
of the reason it's been so, you know, vital on
turn 25 this year. Um, in April. So for a
restaurant that's 25 years old to still, you know, be busy.
So be relevant to still, um, you know, be a
(21:29):
place that, you know, Melburnians and people want to come to.
It's I think that's a really awesome thing. Um.
S1 (21:36):
Is that really tricky, though, balancing your vision with someone
else's or with what? What the institution itself is? Because
you could only adjust the dials.
S2 (21:46):
Exactly. You do. You are in a in a box.
You know, for me, that was always okay. Like, I
knew I'd always do something, um, from scratch myself. And,
you know, Vietnam was obviously like, it's got, you know,
the cheese trolley and the souffle and the champagne service, and, um,
it's always, you know, it's always there's a number of
dishes that are sort of, uh, become sort of vitamin
things which guests that have come every year or a
(22:08):
few times a year for 25 years, you know, they
expect and they want. And it's maybe, you know, you
can't if you go push things too much, you get
a bit that's a bit, you know, maybe two too
confronting or two a bit too weird for some people.
And it's not, you know, it's not what they want.
So you do have to sit a little bit in a,
in a, in a lane a view. But that's not
necessarily a bad thing. That's it's just you get to
(22:31):
put your mark on it. Um, but you just have
a framework which you sort of work into, which is
sort of, um, which is sort of respecting that 25
years of history as well.
S1 (22:41):
Yeah. I want to chat just really briefly about, um,
food media. There was this major spat in the city
last year when Ben Shourie used his memoir to kind
of call out critics, and it was an incredible section
or chapter of the book because he essentially said he
just has no respect for any critics other than maybe
one who I think was a Pulitzer Prize winner, like
(23:02):
the the greatest of all time kind of critic. How
do you feel about, um, food reviews and the whole
process and the way your, your work is judged and
that you have to kind of see that outcome, um, publicly?
S2 (23:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a it's a tricky thing.
Like I it's I think, you know, I've obviously read
the book. There's, there's things that I would agree with
for sure. Um, you know, in terms of sort of
experience and background, like, you know, there probably should be
some level of, of, um, you know, deeper knowledge in
(23:40):
terms of ingredients and cooking.
S1 (23:42):
And you mean from certain critics, like they should. They should. Yeah.
S2 (23:45):
Like, you know, if you're someone's an art critic, you'd
hope they, you know, studied art or art history or
something like, you know, like you'd there would be some framework.
But I also think that, um, you know, being judged
for your work is, is, you know, everyone is, you know,
if you're a, if you're a, um, you know, if
you're an athlete, you know, you're on, you know, footy
players are getting constantly trashed and judged for their performance.
(24:06):
You know, um, artists, you know, get trashed for, for
their artworks. Theatre performers do a bad show. They get,
you know, like everyone's getting judged for their work, like. Yeah.
And I think that's getting judged for your work is
also keeps you you know you know, I think it
helps avoid a little complacency. Um, me knowing that I'm
going to get reviewed or, you know, even for the
(24:29):
new restaurant that we're planning, knowing that there's going to
be reviews, knowing that's going to be publicly criticized and
reviewed like that obviously makes me not want to be
complacent with anything and, and be super hyper focused because
I don't want in, you know, an embarrassing review about
my work. You know, no one does. So yeah, I think,
I think there's, there's a place for it. And as
(24:51):
you know, as, as they, you know, often say it's
it's really about the readers, I guess, you know, and
it's about the public. Um, just like I think we
go to before you watch a movie, we all, you know,
check on Rotten Tomatoes, you know what I mean? Like, totally.
That's for us. That's, you know, the movies might not
want that. Um, but it's just a reference point for
us to know if we want to invest our time
(25:11):
to watch the movie or, or food. So it's definitely
I think there's not perfect. They perfect. They get things wrong. Um,
there's things that I think could be a bit more thorough,
a bit more detailed. But ultimately, I think, I honestly
think most people have good intentions from from the food side,
from the writing side. I think people generally come at
things from a good heart. And yeah, so it's obviously
(25:33):
it'd be nice to have zero pressure whatsoever. Um, and
it's something that does give, give anxieties. You know, I
have anxieties about it, um, for sure. But yeah, I
don't see it going away and I don't think it's, it's,
you know, I totally understand why they exist and. Yeah, yeah.
S1 (25:51):
On a related note, our restaurant critic, uh, Becca Odell,
just revealed her identity online today. Uh, I remember from
spending a little bit of spending a night view sort
of hanging around your, your staff that they keep kind
of incredibly detailed notes on guests. So I was really
impressed with that, how they could look up a booking
(26:11):
and see, oh, these people treated it like a like
the place was a pub last time. This lady loves
the loves a Riesling. Or, you know, these people love
the restauranteur. Did you like, did you identify food critics?
Do you have, like, photos of them?
S2 (26:30):
No, we don't have photos up like we do. Okay.
Like like historically we do some, like, more training, more
with the host downstairs. Just because, um, you know, we've got.
That's sort of the first point of contact. Um, yeah.
It's like, you know, I think I think restaurants are
pretty savvy.
S1 (26:50):
Um, I was just wondering if you knew, like, what
she looked like or if her secret was, like, completely
kept or not.
S2 (26:57):
Um, I did know what she looked like. Um, I think,
you know, I saw I saw the article today where
I think she knew that as well, that some people did.
Some people didn't. Um, yeah. The chefs are pretty savvy. Um.
I won't say how.
S1 (27:14):
You're not going to give away.
S2 (27:15):
The secrets, but, um.
S1 (27:16):
But you worked it out.
S2 (27:17):
Yeah, but, like, you're also chefs, like restaurants especially, you know,
there's a there's a group of everyone's pretty friendly with
each other, I think in general. And if someone I
think most restaurants, at least in my network, they everyone
wants each other to succeed, I don't like I honestly
don't have any, you know, hope or desire for anyone
to get a bad review or.
S1 (27:37):
To not want to crush the competition.
S2 (27:38):
No. Hundred percent. No. I think there's a lot of
it's actually creates a really negative thing when everyone's really
trying to outdo each other and trying to tear each
other down and hoping they get a bad thing said,
or hoping they get, um, you know, bad reviews. So
I think chefs often, um, work together and help each other.
And if we, you know, if we if we came in,
(27:59):
we would often, you know, people, you know, whatever another restaurant,
I would often get a text saying, hey, had this
person in booked under this name booked on this email,
you know, that's that's pretty standard in restaurants. So, um,
I think, yeah, it's probably again, I understand why she's
done it. She's obviously got a book coming out. And also,
you know, it's nice to, I guess, to have change
(28:20):
as well. Like when you, when you have, you know,
change is good. It's like starting a new job or
a new role or moving to a country or just
change keeps you fresh and, and and I'm sure it's
felt it's time for change.
S1 (28:32):
So one final topical one. There was this major blow
up recently when one chef, Maggie Marcheschi of Recipe Teammates,
accused Brooke Bellamy of, um, plagiarism, of kind of copying
a recipe, a recipe which Bellamy, um, denied. Um, can
you copyright a recipe? I mean, how do you how
(28:53):
do you straddle that line as a chef? Because you're
always borrowing elements or methods or ingredients from previous dishes
and adapting them. Or are you not like.
S2 (29:04):
Ah, I don't know, there's there's like, I honestly don't
know enough about it to to probably comment directly on that.
S1 (29:10):
Not on that.
S2 (29:10):
Case.
S1 (29:11):
Yeah.
S2 (29:11):
Like there was there's cases every chef every especially in
sort of I'd say, you know, the top chefs have
been ripped off. You know, sometimes pretty obviously. Um, and
generally like I think most chefs are like whatever, like
we'll move on, we'll do something new, we'll do something better.
I think it depends on what level it is like,
if it's, you know, something that, you know, a concept
(29:33):
or an idea that's really precise, you know, really you
spent months on like, I don't know, like, if, if
you know, my, the Banksy of pods or the gum
nuts where it's like, you know, a dish where I
spent months really working on that's very specific. And if
someone else started doing that kind of, you know, floor
in edible sands, like, I'd probably be like, oh, I
wouldn't say anything publicly or anything. It's just because I'm
(29:55):
just not confrontational like that. But, um, I would, I would, yeah,
you'd be frustrated for sure. So it happens probably too much,
I think. I think, uh, with restaurants I always think
about what's what's next. And with Thiago, what's next. Like
we've had a lot of movements in food and and
I think true like knowledge is is knowing what what
(30:18):
is what's like no one knows what's next. Like you
had the, you know, Thomas Keller came in with and
he sort of revolutionized revolutionized the way of working and
and how, you know, professional kitchens should be structured and
and he always talks about, you know, it was really
about drive as a chef and personal goals and a
sense of urgency and, and, and really pioneered that sense.
(30:40):
And then a woolly and fat duck and and then
obviously the Nordics came came in. And who would have thought,
you know, little restaurant in Copenhagen and restaurants in Sweden
and would, would just create this crazy movement and like
create a style which is, is, is so prevalent still. Um,
so I think, I think it's hard to see what's next,
(31:03):
but I think that that sort of pursuit of, of
the next is really is really sort of an exciting thing.
And I think something that we should all be doing.
S1 (31:13):
So and that's what you're on the verge of when again,
when we met, you could only tell me kind of
the faintest whispers about this new venture. And I think
you had just sort of securing the venue, which is
in Fitzroy Gardens in Melbourne. So, um, jago's, uh, bankrolled
by the same backers as view, the Far East organisation. Um, yeah.
S2 (31:34):
It's a joint venture. So we've gone all in with it. So.
S1 (31:37):
And, but this is sort of your first independent baby.
Is that as frightening as it is exciting? Like, what
are you feeling like right now? Nine months.
S2 (31:48):
Out. No, it's it's a dream for me, honestly. Like,
ever since I've got back, I've been looking for a space,
as I said, like view. It's it's so part of
me obviously through my apprenticeship and it's a really important
place for Melbourne. But yeah, I really always wanted to
start my own Legacy, you know. My own place. Something
I could design from the ground up. And during Covid,
(32:10):
it was. It was, you know, the start of Covid.
And I was just on that five K radius walk.
And I stumbled upon it and it was derelict and
empty and and then yeah, it was up for, for tender.
So we just started that process there. And I think
the biggest one was knowing when we got the space
that that feeling was like, man, like, here we go.
And then but that was honestly just the start. Like
(32:31):
it's even right now. Like it's just such a battle
with with everything like from the building from permits and
everything or, you know, we've all seen grand designs, we
all know how it goes. But, um, yeah, it's it's
for being, you know, a few months off. It's I'm
super excited. Like, I'm really even though it hasn't opened
and I hope it gets well received, but I think
(32:52):
it's going to be such a beautiful, such a beautiful space.
Like we've really made, you know, putting so much effort
into to the design and the concept and in a
deeper way. So, you know, everything's made in Australia all the,
you know, even the tiles in the restaurant are made
from clay from Australia, made in Melbourne. Um, you know,
custom thing. All the furniture is made in Australia with
(33:13):
native timbers, leather. We're using leather. That's the same leather
as our boots for the for the chairs and stuff
like that. All the ceramics are made, you know, we're
making ceramics, which is from clay, which they use for
the cricket pitch at the MCG. So, you know, on
a really deep sense of like celebrating Australian makers and
craft and materials and because I feel like if we're
(33:35):
a restaurant that's focusing on, on, you know, cooking obviously Australian,
you know, food ingredients, we you know, it makes sense
for the restaurant also to be follow that philosophy and mindset.
So it's been you know you know obviously an expensive
effort as well making everything locally.
S1 (33:52):
Not just Australia either but Melbourne right. Like yeah.
S2 (33:55):
Melbourne's your.
S1 (33:56):
Team.
S2 (33:56):
Victoria. Yeah. Team Victoria 100%. Um yeah Big time. So
there are, there are definitely makers um, interstate as well. Um,
but yeah, Melbourne, there's some incredible workers and makers and
craftspeople and from not just Melbourne, Victoria. So yeah, I'm,
I really hope it, you know, becomes part of part
of Melbourne and and. Yeah, I'm so pumped for it.
S1 (34:18):
How much, uh, can you or are you giving away
about what it will be or what people can expect
from it, like the sort of the ethos or the
style or are you open about it? I don't know.
S2 (34:30):
Yeah. That's not not secret like it's. Yeah, I want
it to be like I want it to be real,
I guess. Aspirational space. I want people to come, um,
you know, for me, it's it's only 40 seats or so.
It's quite small and there's no turns. You know, everyone,
it's only one seat in, um, it's going to be
a tasting menu that's, you know, really obviously focused around,
(34:53):
you know, Australia and this country and this beautiful, um, place.
We're all lucky to live. So yeah. Ingredients wise, obviously
I'm working with some really cool things. I want products
that no one else is using. So that's been right
the last few months, really trying to source ingredients and um,
and you know, products that no one uses. Um, just
just to give guests like an experience that feels, you know,
(35:17):
new and feels very yiaga a sense. So and that
will evolve, you know, as, as we are open and
as we continue to, to work on things. I hope
the Russian really has a really strong identity and feels
very Melbourne, very Australia and very, uh, very yeah, I go, so.
S1 (35:35):
What does that word mean, by the way.
S2 (35:36):
Means seek and find. Um, yeah. We didn't actually name it.
So yeah.
S1 (35:41):
One last one, just a light one. Chef's work long
light hours and have access to incredibly rich food and drink.
How do you stay fit and healthy?
S2 (35:52):
Um, I actually yeah, it's a big part. I think
chefs are in general and hospitality, people in general are
really become, you know, real into their fitness. Um, so
I play tennis with a bunch of chefs every week. Um,
we've got a little club which we, we all go
and play and it's it's half social, half playing. The
quality of tennis is pretty low, but, um, you know, it's,
(36:16):
it's a, it's a good sort of outside the kitchen
way to connect and catch up. And then I try
to go to the gym, um, a few times a
week as well. Um, and do I walk to work? Walk.
You know, so like, yeah, I try to stay pretty
healthy and fit. I don't really drink. Um, so, yeah,
(36:37):
I'm pretty boring, to be honest, when it comes to.
S1 (36:39):
No, that's a good prescription for a healthy life. Thanks
very much for joining us here. It was great to
chat again.
S2 (36:44):
I really appreciate it. And thanks for having me.
S1 (36:50):
That was star chef Hugh Allen on the latest good
weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe,
rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep
tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon. Good weekend!
Senior writer Melissa Fyfe talks about the scourge of forced marriage,
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(37:13):
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(37:33):
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
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Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:29):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Hugh Allan. Allan, of course, is the executive chef of
iconic three hat restaurant Vue de Monde. I profiled him
two years ago for the magazine when he shared his
interesting origin story. Allan is the son of a nurse
and a paediatrician, both terrible cooks. It must be said,
(00:49):
and he was marked at high school as a bit
of a teenage delinquent. Yet in food, he became a wunderkind.
He only just turned 30 and yet already has enjoyed
stints under chefs such as Neil Perry, Shannon Bennett and
the esteemed René Redzepi from Copenhagen institution Noma. He's been
a popular guest judge on MasterChef and last but not least,
(01:12):
is opening his own restaurant later this year named Jaga.
The annual food issue of Good Weekend is on newsstands
right now, so Alan felt like a brilliant fit for
a chat about his life and career and what's new
in the restaurant industry right now. So welcome, Hugh.
S2 (01:27):
Thanks for having me.
S1 (01:28):
It's great to see you again. I think we spoke
a couple of years ago. Yeah. Um, you were having
a great time. I just wanted to start off with
something strange. I've got a photo to share with you.
I'll describe it for listeners. I took it last week.
I was chatting with Australian portrait artist Vincent Fantauzzo. It's
(01:49):
a black and white sketch of you, done by the
artist and a gorgeous image. But you don't look too happy, mate.
Why so glum?
S2 (01:56):
I don't know. I don't know. Um.
S1 (01:58):
What was that for?
S2 (02:00):
So that was for. I'm not sure if he's public
about the end goal for it, because there's sort of
deeper meaning behind, uh, sort of the series he's doing.
But yeah, it's just, um, I've met him a few times,
and he's, you know, he's a really amazing artist, obviously.
And and when he asked to, um, to a little
drawing of me, of course, you know, I was quite
actually humbled by it and. Yeah, but, you know, I actually.
S1 (02:23):
Have you seen that before or am I sharing it?
S2 (02:25):
I've seen the first time I've seen, like, glimpse of it. Um,
I don't think I've seen it finished. Um, but, yeah,
I do look a bit moody, don't I? Yeah.
S1 (02:32):
We'll see how we go. It's, um, he explained to
me that sort of hopefully part of a book. And
there'll be a bunch of other chefs involved. He's Matt
Moran is his good friend. And then I think his
mates with all of them really. Shane Delia.
S2 (02:44):
He's I think I think Neil and a bunch. Yeah.
So yeah.
S1 (02:47):
Very connected to food. Anyway, that was just a bit
of an icebreaker. Um, how did you find food? Can
you let listeners in on that? Because I remember doing
your story and expecting you to tell me. Oh, I
learned at my mother's hip. I was never far from
her apron. Or there was, like a nonna in your
life that imbued this love of food. But really, you
were like one of three brothers, and your parents just
(03:10):
needed to load you up with old El Paso kits.
So how did you get into it?
S2 (03:16):
Um, I've always I always loved, you know, sort of
creative things. I think, you know, if I wasn't a chef,
I would want to be, you know, an architect or
furniture maker or ceramicist or something like that. I've always
liked the idea of craft and makers, um, even when
I was a kid. So school, you know, I enjoyed school.
I enjoyed being at school, I enjoyed I'd be being
(03:37):
with my friends. But yeah, I didn't really enjoy the classroom,
I guess. Um, so I knew I wanted to do something,
and I knew that was sort of almost a similar
workplace to an office or to to university. So I
knew I didn't want to go down that route. And
restaurants always just appealed to me. I always loved if we,
you know, we didn't really go out to restaurants much
at all. But when we did, it was if you
could see into the kitchen. I always loved sort of
(03:59):
those glimpses into the kitchen and the idea of taking
sort of a raw product and and turning it into
something really special and, and cooking it to sort of
work with the ingredient was always, I think, such a
beautiful thing. And then.
S1 (04:13):
I mean, it was quite obsessive at a, at an
early age, like Ratatouille is the favorite movie.
S2 (04:17):
I mean, I mean, it sounds tacky, but honestly, Ratatouille
was was a big part of like, like I became
obsessed with that movie and I think I was like
11 or 12 when it came out. Um, because I
think it came out in 2006 or 7 now. Um,
so I was like, yeah, maybe ten, 11 or 12
whenever it came out and I was already into food
(04:37):
and cooking. I loved watching Jamie Oliver on TV and, um,
I just thought he was, you know, a really cool guy.
And and. Yeah. And then Ratatouille came out, and I
just became obsessed with it. Like, I honestly could read.
I could watch that movie and say word for word
before they say the word, like, that's how much I've.
And you know, I used to watch it, but yeah,
I just loved kitchens. I loved the idea of it.
I loved the concept of, of, you know, the creative element,
(05:01):
the nourishing element. Um, and yeah, it's always just appealed
to me. So when I did work experience at school,
as you have to do in year 9 or 10, um,
I did it at Rockpool and they offered me an
apprenticeship and that was it.
S1 (05:15):
I want to get to that in a second. But
first I wanted to talk about that, um, that juvenile delinquency. No,
that's that's way too strong a word for it. But, um,
you did sort of explain how, um, you weren't fully
immersed in school. You enjoyed it, but you went to.
So for Sydney listeners, you went to University High School,
which is a pretty academic sort of public school close
(05:36):
to the CBD. Um, but you struggled a bit, or
maybe you didn't give it your all and ended up
in this. What was it, the two year program. What's
the two cool program?
S2 (05:46):
Yeah, I think I mean, I got out of it
pretty quickly. Um, it's. Yeah. Like school. I think for me,
if I applied myself to something, I could always do
quite well at something. Yeah. But I just, you know,
it's also on me. I just firstly, I really struggled
to understand things at school. Like, if you like algebra
or something like that, honestly, you could have just been going,
you know, blah blah, blah, blah blah. Like it just
(06:07):
meant nothing to me, like I didn't. Not one part
of it I could understand. And I think because of
my struggle to understand things, my reaction to become was
to become a bit of a, you know, just distraction. And. Yeah. No. Yeah.
Like I wasn't I was never rude. I was never
a bully like I was, I was I've, I think
I've always been like a, you know like even as
a kid, like quite a gentle person. But I became yeah,
(06:30):
I just wasn't engaged in it when I wasn't engaged.
You become a distraction. And, um, for me, it was
just about getting through it versus actually, like, applying myself. Um.
And I knew I just it's just. Yeah, I just
didn't enjoy it. So the sort of classroom element, I
enjoyed school and I actually have, like, huge respect for
teachers and stuff, especially as I got older. Um, but yeah,
(06:51):
just I think because of that lack of sort of
applying myself, I ended up in this sort of program
which was was called To Cool, which was, I think, honestly,
it's a it's a good thing for schools to have
it's sort of taking kids that maybe aren't sort of
applying themselves or having a bit of, you know, seen
as could be going down a wrong path to, you know,
(07:13):
get people that, you know, I think we had police
and stuff come in and talk about like the effects
of drug use and stuff. And I've never taken a,
like a drug in my life, you know, like I
to this day, like it's just not something.
S1 (07:23):
You weren't the kid coming to school with a knife.
S2 (07:25):
Not at all. Like, you know, like I, you know,
maybe I was a bit a bit of distraction, but, yeah, I've,
you know, I've never been into any of that kind
of stuff. So. Yeah, I think I was maybe a
few sessions, I was like, I think I can't remember
how I got out of it, but I think I
spoke to someone. I was like, I don't know how
I end up in that, but um, but yeah, so
cooking was, was my was my sort of way out.
S1 (07:44):
Well, tell us about that experience at Rockpool. You mentioned
it was like a work experience thing, which usually ends
after a week, but did you just instantly know, like, oh, I'm,
I'm sold. This is where I'm supposed to be?
S2 (07:54):
Yeah, so I did I actually did front and back
of house. Um, just out of I think that's what
they wanted me to do. And and it was good.
Like I got to understand sort of both sides of,
of the restaurant. And obviously both are almost equally as important.
And so yeah, I just really at the start actually
the first few days was, was I was a bit like, like, well,
(08:14):
I don't know if I like it was like, you know,
you go from school, you kind of loosely have to
have some sort of structure, but then to a workplace where,
you know, you do have to suddenly like you have
strict structure, especially in restaurants. You know, you have service.
You have to be, you know, you have to be groomed.
You have to be on time. You have to be
following a certain protocol rules that the restaurant has and
(08:35):
how whether it's in the front of house, how you
you top up order or how you, you know, and
as a kid that's I was like, it's a bit,
you know, it's quite structured and I was it was a,
I was a bit like, I don't know if I
could want to be working something so strict and structured. Sure. Um,
even though, like, now I'm like, that wasn't at all.
That was. I was scared. But, um. But yeah, after
a few days and by the end of the week, um,
(08:57):
I really sort of connected more with, with the team
and especially the chefs. Yeah. Um, and there was a
chef there who actually went to my high school, and
he was much older. He was probably ten years older
than me. Um, so he he also went to uni
and we sort of connected. We had 1 or 2
teachers that we mutually knew, and he was one of
the sous chefs at the time, and he was really
keen to, to get me on as an apprentice. So
(09:18):
he spoke to the management there and they offered me
apprenticeship at the end of it. So I finished the
rest of the school year and then January, whatever year
it was, I don't even know. Um, I was 16,
so I started I started the apprenticeship.
S1 (09:31):
It was a steep learning curve. I remember you telling
me like somebody would say, go get, go get a
bunch of tarragon or something from the fridge, and you'd
have to kind of Google it on your phone on
the way there.
S2 (09:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Literally like you, you, you really go into
like such basic stuff now. And I think this is
kind of before I mean, it was phones were around,
I don't know, I can't remember how smartphones were, but like,
not now we have like everything's social media, like Instagram
wasn't a thing. So it's like where people just pumped
with information and content and stuff like that. Now where
you might have more of an understanding like still to
(10:04):
even I was wasn't that long ago. Books and media
was kind of how you learned stuff about or, you know,
shows like Jamie Oliver of how you knew what things were.
And because my parents weren't, you know, they'll, you know,
they worked, they'll both work really hard workers and in,
in hospitals, food wasn't like the key thing. It was
more just fuel and then to get us to our
different sports or, um, after school. So yeah, I didn't
(10:26):
know what tarragon or chervil or any of the like
besides like rosemary. Um, you know, I would have to
be like, be scrummaging through the, the fridges and trying
to Google things. When they asked me for something.
S1 (10:36):
You eventually ended up at Vaudémont learning under Shannon Bennett.
Like starting out in the basement at first and then
and then upstairs and kind of performed exceptionally well. I
actually just wanted to skip ahead from that to how
did you get from there to Noma? And this is,
as I said in the introduction, the famed Copenhagen institution
that's won best restaurant in the world a record five times.
S2 (11:00):
It was always a goal, I think, and I've always
had sort of I think I've always had like a
goal of where where I want to, you know, I
don't want to say like I had a five year plan,
but like, I've always kind of seen like, okay, by
that time I'd like to be able to do that.
How am I going to get to that and sort
of just going down that route? Um, and I knew
I've always wanted to work in whatever field is like
(11:20):
the best, like at the best or the highest level
of that field. I think it's the same if you're
a soccer player. Of course, you wanted to end up
playing for one of the big you know, I don't
know anything about soccer, but, you know, Champions League or
Premier League or one of the thing, or if you're
footy player you want to play for, you know, you
want to play AFL like so for me as a chef,
like of course I wanted to work at the. um,
(11:41):
at the highest level or and obviously at that time,
you know, as you said, no one is winning world's
best restaurant multiple times. And, you know, they sort of
had this, like massive crazy, uh, movement, which, you know,
still by far the most influential movement, um, since, you know,
since the modernist movement. Um, yeah. So I just wanted
to be part of that. I knew some chefs that
(12:02):
had been there and worked there, and it just the
whole thing sort of sounded just magic to me. And then. Yeah,
so I finished my apprenticeship and then I just the
first thing I did was get a visa for a
working holiday for, for Denmark. I didn't have the job yet.
And then I just went me and a mate that
went to TAFE with we went together and yeah, I emailed,
(12:25):
sort of cold emailed the restaurant. I said just sort of,
I'm in town. Just loved swinging by. I gave a
bit of a, you know, worked here kind of thing
and did this and I'd love to come and just
be able to hang out. Obviously, I know you're probably not.
You're not hiring because it's Noma, but I'd love to
hang out. And, you know, I think I'd like, put
a really exaggerated, um, detailed letter of, you know, why
(12:47):
I should be able to come and spend a few
weeks there kind of thing.
S1 (12:50):
Staging.
S2 (12:51):
Staging? Yeah. But like most stages they do was at
that time was multiple months. Um, so that that I
didn't actually have I don't think even I had the
money to do multiple months that, um, without, you know,
solid income. So, yeah, that was the plan. So then
I did did the couple weeks, they said, yeah, sure. Um,
and yeah, when I was in the couple of weeks,
(13:12):
I was, I was really just up in the prep kitchen.
I didn't really like, see or do much, but I
was like, ah, like, how do I get noticed? Because
I want to get a job here. But like, I
was like, I can't see getting a job. And so
I just kept like sort of pestering. And then they
were doing the pop up in Australia. So Noma Australia
was happening. And that was, I think in 2016, the
(13:33):
very start of 2016 or end of 2015. And, You know.
So it's been a few weeks in Copenhagen at the
end of the year and then in January, so a
few weeks after, they're going to do the pop up
in Australia. And so I was just like, oh, well,
I'll be back in Australia, right. Um, I wasn't actually
going to be back in Australia. I'd obviously just moved
to Denmark. I had a lease, you know, I had
my working holiday visa and.
S1 (13:53):
It was in Sydney. Right. And from Melbourne, so. Oh yeah,
I'll be around.
S2 (13:56):
Yeah. I was like, I'll be around. I didn't even
specify that I want. Yeah. I think at that time
I'd been to Sydney like once in my life. Um,
so then yeah, I went to Sydney, I think I
stayed at a hostel or something for, like, for the
pop up and did most of the pop up. And
then during that I sort of obviously built more of
a connection with the team. And then, um, I was like, oh,
you know, I really want a job here, guys. And
then I moved back to Copenhagen, um, still without a
(14:18):
job there. And then like a week later, the chef
messaged me on Instagram or Facebook or whatever it was saying, hey,
we've got a position if you can get to Copenhagen.
And I was like, yeah, I'll be there next week
kind of thing. But yeah, I was already in Copenhagen.
I was like two minutes from the restaurant. Um, and
that was it. And then it was amazing.
S1 (14:36):
Awesome. So anyone who's watched The Bear would have seen
glimpses of kind of the pressure involved in, um, in
being in a high end kitchen. Um, you've spoken before
about Redzepi and his passion for detail. I love this
thing that you told. I think it was, um, what
about our food writer, Danny Vaillant? Um, that he would
(14:57):
apparently talk about the difference between an a between ape
and human genetics as being only 1.5%, but that 1.5%
is like the difference between shitting in a forest and
flying to the moon. What was he like? Um, at
his best and his worst when it came to kind
(15:18):
of enforcing that detail, making sure that everything was just
on point?
S2 (15:23):
Yeah, I mean, I can't say bad thing about Rene, honestly.
I know, like, he's he's he was you know, he's
he is such a pioneer and I just I honestly
respect pioneers in a field so much, like the level
of commitment and detail and and drive is put into
the industry. And, um, you know, I think it's something
(15:43):
that should be really celebrated. And I think he deserves
everything that he's, he's gotten and all the accolades and
achievements and credibility. Um, and yeah, it's such like it
was an obsessive workplace, but everyone was on board, you know,
it was like, we, we, we all, we all wanted
to for the place to succeed. We all wanted to
have the dishes at the highest quality level. We all
(16:06):
wanted to make sure the guests really felt like this
ultra special, like sort of, you know, that sounds wanky,
but like this transformative experience, um, and that, you know,
people left Noma thinking, I've never been in a restaurant
like that. Like that was just a cut above, um,
almost like, you know, a magical experience. And so we're all, like,
(16:26):
heavily invested in that. So obviously it was, you know,
it was a lot of hard work and it was,
you know, it was every day was a hustle. Um,
but he he was, you know, he was like the coach.
He was like the the driving force. Um, and there
was there was a huge team behind everything. It was
a creative team. There's a test kitchen. There's a fermentation team.
There's the service kitchen, there's the interns. Like it was
such a such a beast of an operation. Um, but
(16:49):
I think everyone was really, you know, just so goal
focused and so. And really, really, really, really wanted to
make this place something like, you know, that, you know,
world's best. So, yeah, I think there's, there's few people
that are true pioneers in that sense. And I think, yeah,
here's just a sort of a remarkable chef, really.
S1 (17:10):
So he had some great experiences there. And then you're
handed the reins at Vue de Monde when you're 23.
S2 (17:17):
Yeah, I was 23. Just about to turn 24. Um, yeah.
So finished. Yeah. I would like to stay longer, but yeah,
I was there for about three, three and a half years, um,
which is, but I also did the Noma Mexico pop
up and obviously Australia and number one and number 2.0.
So it was it was a really like it was
honestly amazing, perfect time to be there because it was
(17:38):
a big spread of things. And then yeah, came back
home just 20 end of 2018. Started 2019.
S1 (17:44):
The current manager at the restaurant or actually is is
Hugo still the current?
S2 (17:49):
Yeah. Hugo. Hugo.
S1 (17:50):
So he I remember he said to me that like
he was one of a few who just kind of
openly doubted that you were up to it at, at
the time, not so much you, but just you were
too young for the job. Um, how did you feel
about it? Like imposter syndrome? Or what was it like
being like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna be in charge
(18:11):
of this flagship restaurant.
S2 (18:13):
Yeah, I think I think, honestly, Shannon knew how old
I was. Um, but obviously I was, you know, we
knew each other from my apprenticeship, so we had that
sort of, I guess, more personal connection. Um, it was
it was pretty full on. Again. The team is so amazing.
And some of the guys that were there are still there. Um,
the management team. So and I knew them a lot
(18:34):
of them from my apprenticeship. So, you know, you go,
for example, Chris is the head chef. They've been there
ten plus years. Um, which is for hospitality is a
is a it's a very long, long time. So yeah,
Hugo was sort of said which you know, he's very
open about. He called channels like he's not the right person,
he's too young, blah blah, blah, um, which, you know,
(18:54):
is totally fair. And, you know, it was. Yeah. A
really it's a big, big position. It's a big restaurant. It's,
you know, it's it's heavily, you know, judged and, and
there's a big team. And I'd never been a manager before. Um,
you know, it's my first time I was ever I
hadn't even been a sous chef before, you know, like,
it was. It was. I'd gone from a chef to party.
S1 (19:16):
Yeah.
S2 (19:16):
To a to running a team and I. Yeah. So
it was a bit of a learning curve I think
at the start, um, I sort of just went with
the flow and then I didn't really. Yeah. You know,
there was definitely things that I was probably, you know,
now would be more mature about. Um, and I definitely
lacked some maturity. I think I was pretty mature for
(19:37):
my age, but yeah, I definitely lacked experience and maturity
as a leader, for sure. Um, but in terms of
the creative, the creative or just being a chef in general,
I guess I was young and naive, so you could
just do things like I didn't really I didn't really
think too much about that side of it. I just was,
was doing things and some of the stuff, you know,
I look, I think I was pretty average and some
(19:58):
of the stuff I think, you know, that was I
think that was pretty good for someone that was 23, 24.
And I think over the last I've been there now, what,
six years. And it's evolved and I think, you know,
gotten better. And I think we've made a much better,
you know, workplace. And I think we did a really
good culture. And I'm sort of proud of that sense.
But it's definitely not, you know, not perfect. And I'm
still I'm still I've just turned 30 like two weeks ago.
(20:20):
Three weeks ago. So happy.
S1 (20:21):
Birthday.
S2 (20:21):
Thanks. Um, so I guess I'm still a young leader
in that sense. But yeah, I think it was it
was it was tricky. And obviously a lot of people
didn't want me to have the position and some people left. Um,
but I think it's all, you know, I've also got
great relationships with everyone from that. So. Yeah.
S1 (20:50):
The last time I spoke with you was about to
undergo a big renovation. Um, I'm sure that would have
been nice to be able to kind of put some
of your own stamp on this place. Because when you
take over a job like that, you're a little bit
of a custodian, aren't you? Yeah. There's a there's a.
S2 (21:07):
I still feel like a custodian of you. Yeah. For sure.
Like it's had multiple chefs. It's it's had multiple venues.
It's had um locations. Um, which I think that's part
of the reason it's been so, you know, vital on
turn 25 this year. Um, in April. So for a
restaurant that's 25 years old to still, you know, be busy.
So be relevant to still, um, you know, be a
(21:29):
place that, you know, Melburnians and people want to come to.
It's I think that's a really awesome thing. Um.
S1 (21:36):
Is that really tricky, though, balancing your vision with someone
else's or with what? What the institution itself is? Because
you could only adjust the dials.
S2 (21:46):
Exactly. You do. You are in a in a box.
You know, for me, that was always okay. Like, I
knew I'd always do something, um, from scratch myself. And,
you know, Vietnam was obviously like, it's got, you know,
the cheese trolley and the souffle and the champagne service, and, um,
it's always, you know, it's always there's a number of
dishes that are sort of, uh, become sort of vitamin
things which guests that have come every year or a
(22:08):
few times a year for 25 years, you know, they
expect and they want. And it's maybe, you know, you
can't if you go push things too much, you get
a bit that's a bit, you know, maybe two too
confronting or two a bit too weird for some people.
And it's not, you know, it's not what they want.
So you do have to sit a little bit in a,
in a, in a lane a view. But that's not
necessarily a bad thing. That's it's just you get to
(22:31):
put your mark on it. Um, but you just have
a framework which you sort of work into, which is
sort of, um, which is sort of respecting that 25
years of history as well.
S1 (22:41):
Yeah. I want to chat just really briefly about, um,
food media. There was this major spat in the city
last year when Ben Shourie used his memoir to kind
of call out critics, and it was an incredible section
or chapter of the book because he essentially said he
just has no respect for any critics other than maybe
one who I think was a Pulitzer Prize winner, like
(23:02):
the the greatest of all time kind of critic. How
do you feel about, um, food reviews and the whole
process and the way your, your work is judged and
that you have to kind of see that outcome, um, publicly?
S2 (23:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a it's a tricky thing.
Like I it's I think, you know, I've obviously read
the book. There's, there's things that I would agree with
for sure. Um, you know, in terms of sort of
experience and background, like, you know, there probably should be
some level of, of, um, you know, deeper knowledge in
(23:40):
terms of ingredients and cooking.
S1 (23:42):
And you mean from certain critics, like they should. They should. Yeah.
S2 (23:45):
Like, you know, if you're someone's an art critic, you'd
hope they, you know, studied art or art history or
something like, you know, like you'd there would be some framework.
But I also think that, um, you know, being judged
for your work is, is, you know, everyone is, you know,
if you're a, if you're a, um, you know, if
you're an athlete, you know, you're on, you know, footy
players are getting constantly trashed and judged for their performance.
(24:06):
You know, um, artists, you know, get trashed for, for
their artworks. Theatre performers do a bad show. They get,
you know, like everyone's getting judged for their work, like. Yeah.
And I think that's getting judged for your work is
also keeps you you know you know, I think it
helps avoid a little complacency. Um, me knowing that I'm
going to get reviewed or, you know, even for the
(24:29):
new restaurant that we're planning, knowing that there's going to
be reviews, knowing that's going to be publicly criticized and
reviewed like that obviously makes me not want to be
complacent with anything and, and be super hyper focused because
I don't want in, you know, an embarrassing review about
my work. You know, no one does. So yeah, I think,
I think there's, there's a place for it. And as
(24:51):
you know, as, as they, you know, often say it's
it's really about the readers, I guess, you know, and
it's about the public. Um, just like I think we
go to before you watch a movie, we all, you know,
check on Rotten Tomatoes, you know what I mean? Like, totally.
That's for us. That's, you know, the movies might not
want that. Um, but it's just a reference point for
us to know if we want to invest our time
(25:11):
to watch the movie or, or food. So it's definitely
I think there's not perfect. They perfect. They get things wrong. Um,
there's things that I think could be a bit more thorough,
a bit more detailed. But ultimately, I think, I honestly
think most people have good intentions from from the food side,
from the writing side. I think people generally come at
things from a good heart. And yeah, so it's obviously
(25:33):
it'd be nice to have zero pressure whatsoever. Um, and
it's something that does give, give anxieties. You know, I
have anxieties about it, um, for sure. But yeah, I
don't see it going away and I don't think it's, it's,
you know, I totally understand why they exist and. Yeah, yeah.
S1 (25:51):
On a related note, our restaurant critic, uh, Becca Odell,
just revealed her identity online today. Uh, I remember from
spending a little bit of spending a night view sort
of hanging around your, your staff that they keep kind
of incredibly detailed notes on guests. So I was really
impressed with that, how they could look up a booking
(26:11):
and see, oh, these people treated it like a like
the place was a pub last time. This lady loves
the loves a Riesling. Or, you know, these people love
the restauranteur. Did you like, did you identify food critics?
Do you have, like, photos of them?
S2 (26:30):
No, we don't have photos up like we do. Okay.
Like like historically we do some, like, more training, more
with the host downstairs. Just because, um, you know, we've got.
That's sort of the first point of contact. Um, yeah.
It's like, you know, I think I think restaurants are
pretty savvy.
S1 (26:50):
Um, I was just wondering if you knew, like, what
she looked like or if her secret was, like, completely
kept or not.
S2 (26:57):
Um, I did know what she looked like. Um, I think,
you know, I saw I saw the article today where
I think she knew that as well, that some people did.
Some people didn't. Um, yeah. The chefs are pretty savvy. Um.
I won't say how.
S1 (27:14):
You're not going to give away.
S2 (27:15):
The secrets, but, um.
S1 (27:16):
But you worked it out.
S2 (27:17):
Yeah, but, like, you're also chefs, like restaurants especially, you know,
there's a there's a group of everyone's pretty friendly with
each other, I think in general. And if someone I
think most restaurants, at least in my network, they everyone
wants each other to succeed, I don't like I honestly
don't have any, you know, hope or desire for anyone
to get a bad review or.
S1 (27:37):
To not want to crush the competition.
S2 (27:38):
No. Hundred percent. No. I think there's a lot of
it's actually creates a really negative thing when everyone's really
trying to outdo each other and trying to tear each
other down and hoping they get a bad thing said,
or hoping they get, um, you know, bad reviews. So
I think chefs often, um, work together and help each other.
And if we, you know, if we if we came in,
(27:59):
we would often, you know, people, you know, whatever another restaurant,
I would often get a text saying, hey, had this
person in booked under this name booked on this email,
you know, that's that's pretty standard in restaurants. So, um,
I think, yeah, it's probably again, I understand why she's
done it. She's obviously got a book coming out. And also,
you know, it's nice to, I guess, to have change
(28:20):
as well. Like when you, when you have, you know,
change is good. It's like starting a new job or
a new role or moving to a country or just
change keeps you fresh and, and and I'm sure it's
felt it's time for change.
S1 (28:32):
So one final topical one. There was this major blow
up recently when one chef, Maggie Marcheschi of Recipe Teammates,
accused Brooke Bellamy of, um, plagiarism, of kind of copying
a recipe, a recipe which Bellamy, um, denied. Um, can
you copyright a recipe? I mean, how do you how
(28:53):
do you straddle that line as a chef? Because you're
always borrowing elements or methods or ingredients from previous dishes
and adapting them. Or are you not like.
S2 (29:04):
Ah, I don't know, there's there's like, I honestly don't
know enough about it to to probably comment directly on that.
S1 (29:10):
Not on that.
S2 (29:10):
Case.
S1 (29:11):
Yeah.
S2 (29:11):
Like there was there's cases every chef every especially in
sort of I'd say, you know, the top chefs have
been ripped off. You know, sometimes pretty obviously. Um, and
generally like I think most chefs are like whatever, like
we'll move on, we'll do something new, we'll do something better.
I think it depends on what level it is like,
if it's, you know, something that, you know, a concept
(29:33):
or an idea that's really precise, you know, really you
spent months on like, I don't know, like, if, if
you know, my, the Banksy of pods or the gum
nuts where it's like, you know, a dish where I
spent months really working on that's very specific. And if
someone else started doing that kind of, you know, floor
in edible sands, like, I'd probably be like, oh, I
wouldn't say anything publicly or anything. It's just because I'm
(29:55):
just not confrontational like that. But, um, I would, I would, yeah,
you'd be frustrated for sure. So it happens probably too much,
I think. I think, uh, with restaurants I always think
about what's what's next. And with Thiago, what's next. Like
we've had a lot of movements in food and and
I think true like knowledge is is knowing what what
(30:18):
is what's like no one knows what's next. Like you
had the, you know, Thomas Keller came in with and
he sort of revolutionized revolutionized the way of working and
and how, you know, professional kitchens should be structured and
and he always talks about, you know, it was really
about drive as a chef and personal goals and a
sense of urgency and, and, and really pioneered that sense.
(30:40):
And then a woolly and fat duck and and then
obviously the Nordics came came in. And who would have thought,
you know, little restaurant in Copenhagen and restaurants in Sweden
and would, would just create this crazy movement and like
create a style which is, is, is so prevalent still. Um,
so I think, I think it's hard to see what's next,
(31:03):
but I think that that sort of pursuit of, of
the next is really is really sort of an exciting thing.
And I think something that we should all be doing.
S1 (31:13):
So and that's what you're on the verge of when again,
when we met, you could only tell me kind of
the faintest whispers about this new venture. And I think
you had just sort of securing the venue, which is
in Fitzroy Gardens in Melbourne. So, um, jago's, uh, bankrolled
by the same backers as view, the Far East organisation. Um, yeah.
S2 (31:34):
It's a joint venture. So we've gone all in with it. So.
S1 (31:37):
And, but this is sort of your first independent baby.
Is that as frightening as it is exciting? Like, what
are you feeling like right now? Nine months.
S2 (31:48):
Out. No, it's it's a dream for me, honestly. Like,
ever since I've got back, I've been looking for a space,
as I said, like view. It's it's so part of
me obviously through my apprenticeship and it's a really important
place for Melbourne. But yeah, I really always wanted to
start my own Legacy, you know. My own place. Something
I could design from the ground up. And during Covid,
(32:10):
it was. It was, you know, the start of Covid.
And I was just on that five K radius walk.
And I stumbled upon it and it was derelict and
empty and and then yeah, it was up for, for tender.
So we just started that process there. And I think
the biggest one was knowing when we got the space
that that feeling was like, man, like, here we go.
And then but that was honestly just the start. Like
(32:31):
it's even right now. Like it's just such a battle
with with everything like from the building from permits and
everything or, you know, we've all seen grand designs, we
all know how it goes. But, um, yeah, it's it's
for being, you know, a few months off. It's I'm
super excited. Like, I'm really even though it hasn't opened
and I hope it gets well received, but I think
(32:52):
it's going to be such a beautiful, such a beautiful space.
Like we've really made, you know, putting so much effort
into to the design and the concept and in a
deeper way. So, you know, everything's made in Australia all the,
you know, even the tiles in the restaurant are made
from clay from Australia, made in Melbourne. Um, you know,
custom thing. All the furniture is made in Australia with
(33:13):
native timbers, leather. We're using leather. That's the same leather
as our boots for the for the chairs and stuff
like that. All the ceramics are made, you know, we're
making ceramics, which is from clay, which they use for
the cricket pitch at the MCG. So, you know, on
a really deep sense of like celebrating Australian makers and
craft and materials and because I feel like if we're
(33:35):
a restaurant that's focusing on, on, you know, cooking obviously Australian,
you know, food ingredients, we you know, it makes sense
for the restaurant also to be follow that philosophy and mindset.
So it's been you know you know obviously an expensive
effort as well making everything locally.
S1 (33:52):
Not just Australia either but Melbourne right. Like yeah.
S2 (33:55):
Melbourne's your.
S1 (33:56):
Team.
S2 (33:56):
Victoria. Yeah. Team Victoria 100%. Um yeah Big time. So
there are, there are definitely makers um, interstate as well. Um,
but yeah, Melbourne, there's some incredible workers and makers and
craftspeople and from not just Melbourne, Victoria. So yeah, I'm,
I really hope it, you know, becomes part of part
of Melbourne and and. Yeah, I'm so pumped for it.
S1 (34:18):
How much, uh, can you or are you giving away
about what it will be or what people can expect
from it, like the sort of the ethos or the
style or are you open about it? I don't know.
S2 (34:30):
Yeah. That's not not secret like it's. Yeah, I want
it to be like I want it to be real,
I guess. Aspirational space. I want people to come, um,
you know, for me, it's it's only 40 seats or so.
It's quite small and there's no turns. You know, everyone,
it's only one seat in, um, it's going to be
a tasting menu that's, you know, really obviously focused around,
(34:53):
you know, Australia and this country and this beautiful, um, place.
We're all lucky to live. So yeah. Ingredients wise, obviously
I'm working with some really cool things. I want products
that no one else is using. So that's been right
the last few months, really trying to source ingredients and um,
and you know, products that no one uses. Um, just
just to give guests like an experience that feels, you know,
(35:17):
new and feels very yiaga a sense. So and that
will evolve, you know, as, as we are open and
as we continue to, to work on things. I hope
the Russian really has a really strong identity and feels
very Melbourne, very Australia and very, uh, very yeah, I go, so.
S1 (35:35):
What does that word mean, by the way.
S2 (35:36):
Means seek and find. Um, yeah. We didn't actually name it.
So yeah.
S1 (35:41):
One last one, just a light one. Chef's work long
light hours and have access to incredibly rich food and drink.
How do you stay fit and healthy?
S2 (35:52):
Um, I actually yeah, it's a big part. I think
chefs are in general and hospitality, people in general are
really become, you know, real into their fitness. Um, so
I play tennis with a bunch of chefs every week. Um,
we've got a little club which we, we all go
and play and it's it's half social, half playing. The
quality of tennis is pretty low, but, um, you know, it's,
(36:16):
it's a, it's a good sort of outside the kitchen
way to connect and catch up. And then I try
to go to the gym, um, a few times a
week as well. Um, and do I walk to work? Walk.
You know, so like, yeah, I try to stay pretty
healthy and fit. I don't really drink. Um, so, yeah,
(36:37):
I'm pretty boring, to be honest, when it comes to.
S1 (36:39):
No, that's a good prescription for a healthy life. Thanks
very much for joining us here. It was great to
chat again.
S2 (36:44):
I really appreciate it. And thanks for having me.
S1 (36:50):
That was star chef Hugh Allen on the latest good
weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe,
rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep
tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon. Good weekend!
Senior writer Melissa Fyfe talks about the scourge of forced marriage,
in which people are married as a result of coercion, deception,
(37:13):
incapacitation or threats. And she's joined on the show by
a survivor of this largely hidden crime. Good Weekend Talks
is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and
The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
(37:33):
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Tammy
Mills is our executive producer, Tom McKendrick is head of
audio and Greg Callahan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
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