November 22, 2024 • 49 mins
In this week's episode we speak with Shanghai-born, Melbourne-based artist Badiucao, who explains what it's like to remain under suspicion and surveillance for his political artwork. Badiucao, a Walkley-award winning artist with The Age, speaks with opinion editor Patrick O'Neil about his early life in China, the kind of things that still happen to him here in Australia - and that strange time someone pretended to be him.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:26):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to
the Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao. Born in Shanghai, he's
been an Australian citizen for a decade and lives in Melbourne,
where he draws for The Age, winning a Walkley Award
for his work just last year. But he speaks to
us today about being followed and threatened, which came to
(00:49):
a head this year when an imposter claiming to be
him turned up to a Chinese dissident event in Melbourne.
He also speaks to us about the difficulty of making
and showing art around the world, and the reason why
no Australian galleries will show his work. His troubling story
is revealed in his own words in the pages of
Good Weekend this week under the headline The Long Arm,
(01:13):
and was told to the host of our episode this week,
the opinion Editor, Patrick O'Neill.
S2 (01:22):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome back. So you've been an illustrator
for The Age for nearly three years now, but I
think few of our readers would know your incredible life story.
Can you start by telling us when you arrived in
Australia and why you decided to move here from Shanghai?
S3 (01:39):
Um, well, it's great to be here. It's great to
be Australia. So yeah, it has been a journey for
me to, uh, left China, uh, more than ten years ago.
And obviously the one of the most important reasons is
finding a place that I can, you know, live freely
(02:01):
as as a person and become an artist without the
fear that, you know, my work can get me into trouble. Obviously,
I'm bitter naive to say that, but at least that
was the major motivation for me to leave China by
the time, because I think in a democracy I have
(02:23):
to become a citizen for that democratic system or country,
that I shall be protected and enjoy my freedom.
S2 (02:30):
So you arrived in Australia in 2009 before then? What
was it like growing up in Shanghai, and what was
your family's history with the Chinese Communist Party?
S3 (02:41):
Well, it's it's a sad story because I'm actually born
in a very artistic family. My grandpa and his brother
were the first group of filmmakers in China, been very
active in the 1930s until 1957, when the Chinese Communist
Party is in power and they start to launch this
(03:03):
campaign against intellectuals and artists. That's when my grandpa and
his brother get into trouble, because there, you know, films.
And both of them actually got killed during the campaign.
My grandpa was sent to a forced labor camp in
the rural area in China, and we believe he died
(03:24):
because of starvation and sickness. And my grandpa's brother, great uncle,
he actually committed suicide due to the political persecution and
unbearable life. So for me, as you can imagine, I'm
growing up in such family. And they're also making my
(03:47):
dad an orphan when he was really young. So when
I came to this world, my dad's advice to me
is don't be an artist Rest or don't do anything
too intellectual or close to politics or culture, because that
was what got your grandparents get killed. So apparently growing
(04:10):
up in such an environment is kind of harsh. Um,
because I do feel like I have the talent and
desire to express in form of art, but that's not
something that my family would like me to do. Um,
so yeah, my dad always kind of joking, saying, you know,
don't be an artist body. I would rather you to
(04:33):
be a barber or a chef. Um, so you can
survive with your life skills without the trouble of all the,
you know, political horror that my grandparents have been through.
But apparently, um, he underestimated the rebel from a teenage.
The more you know, you're told not to do. The
(04:55):
strong desire that grow in me to actually try it. Um,
so yeah, growing China is an experience of kind of
shadowed by my family history. But in the same time,
I also feel very proud that once upon a time,
my great generation in China were very successful and creative,
(05:18):
and I always look up to them and I want
to be a person like them.
S2 (05:24):
And that was the the 100 Flowers Bloom campaign, where
your your grandfather was affected. Is that right? In the 50s? Yes, yes. Uh, but, uh, look,
I know Australian parents here too, don't want their children
to become artists for different reasons. Perhaps. Uh, but you
first studied to become a lawyer, is that right?
S3 (05:44):
So I studied in the law school. Um, I was
studying the law of copyrights, you know, a bit of
touch about culture, but it's also kind of in the
safe zone of it. But, um, I know that if
I go to that, um, route, I will have a
very fixed life in China. I can see the end
(06:05):
of my life, which is getting a job, having the
burden of apartment mortgage in Shanghai, and that's it. My
life is fixed, and I will never be aligned to
chase my dreams. So, yeah, it's not something that I
really want.
S2 (06:22):
So instead, you. You came to Australia. So? So tell
me about that. What did you do when you arrived
in Australia?
S3 (06:28):
Um, so obviously it's a long plan to staying here,
even though we are immigration country. But the system is
also very complex and full of struggle. So, uh, long
story short, Australia only needs people here to do the
job that the locals don't want to do. And you
(06:50):
have majors like teaching, which is hard work and low
payment and other things. So I came here to study
as a as a teacher for master's degree for two years.
Then I worked for two years until I have the
permanent visa and lately joined the citizenship. And that's when
(07:11):
I finally, finally can, you know, decide where my life
can go. But those are the time, uh, a very
precious 4 to 5 years of my great youth to
to just achieve a life status that I can stay here.
But I'm still grateful that I can be reborn in
(07:32):
this country and finally chasing my dream.
S2 (07:35):
That's great. And so then you. You started creating art
because you finally felt free. You finally felt protected. And
now that you're in Australia, could you briefly describe your
your style or what what kind of art do you create?
S3 (07:51):
Um, so my art is very much about the topic
of human rights record from China and gradually expanding to
political content, human rights issues around the world, also in
Australia as well, because I am grow up in such
family environment that I know how a political system could
(08:13):
infect a family and in fact destroying it. And obviously,
I always believe artist has to be very truthful to
our life, because those things that we created is a
mirror of what we've been living through. And for me,
it's very naturally to putting my art around the topic
(08:34):
of human rights and political system, and in hope that
one day these things can be exposed and the system
can be changed. I really believe that art is an
extra form of language that we use to identify ourselves. Um,
(08:59):
you know, modern philosophy always defined that language is not
just a tool. It's actually something that defines us. Um,
it's it's actually that, you know, what we think is,
is in form of language and art is our language
is beyond just written or spoken words, but visual or
(09:20):
other sensory. So speaking about that matter is also a
recreating process of myself through those art. Um, I started
to posting like political satire and artwork for social media
regarding China for my very early, um, practice. But then
(09:45):
I starting to adapting more different styles, not just in
form of political cartooning, but installation, performance art and all sorts.
S2 (09:55):
And I mean, your work is critical of the of
China's government. Um, you know, you depict XI Jinping in
a lot of your imagery. What happened when you started
sharing that on social media? Where did you first share
it on social media and what were the consequences?
S3 (10:13):
So I actually started to posting my work on Weibo,
which is a Chinese equivalent to, um, Twitter. Um, about
13 years ago. Um, well, I started just as a hobby. Um,
because as you can imagine, when social media just got
(10:35):
invented to get popular in the society, even for authoritarian
government like China, it's a new thing for them. And
they needed time to adapt to apply the censorship and
the control. But you have this very brief window that
people really jump on the platform and express whatever they like.
So that was the time, probably just before XI Jinping
(10:56):
is in power, and we can see almost like a
spring on the internet that suddenly netizens from China are
getting on the platform and making their expression on all
kinds of social issues and conflicts. And that inspired me
and encouraged me to, to to be a part of it.
(11:16):
So that's my initial motivation to draw, because I think
compared with, you know, written or, you know, language form,
my strength is always drawing and my hobby is always
in this drawing form. So I started making political cartoons
very naturally. Uh, but obviously this spring ends very fast, um,
(11:37):
as the CCP or China's Communist Party realizing social media
can be such a threat to its control. And also
in the same time they having the time to develop
a set of tools very efficiently, censoring not just words,
but also images online. And that's when I feel like
(11:59):
the platform in China is no longer really useful. When
my Weibo account got deleted for 37 times and and
as you can imagine, how a struggle that I'll be.
So after that, I basically become a refugee on social
media from China and migrant to, um, Twitter. Uh, well,
(12:25):
I have to say that is a Twitter before X.
So again, I know the new trend is escaping from
Twitter to blue sky for a more free platform, but
that was a story before. So I started being more
active on Twitter and started gaining a bigger platform like
audiences and a chance to post for other medias as well.
S2 (12:46):
And most artists would love to be well known and recognized,
but you just you go by one name. It's not
your your birth name. No. But also, why is that?
Why did you choose a pseudonym and how?
S3 (13:02):
Um, well, obviously there's a certain price you have to
pay if you want to be a free artist in China. Um,
and the price is you get, uh, arrested by the
authorities once they find your art is being very critical
to the government. So from the very beginning, I know
(13:22):
it will not be safe for me to use my
legal name. It will just give away for the Chinese
police to find me out and basically cut off my
art career too soon. So I have to create a persona,
a creator identity. And obviously I also don't want to
use a name that can be associated to my real life.
(13:44):
So the best way to do it is just, you know,
learning from the data isn't truly randomly picking words from
a book. So the first three character bar detail is
the words that I find from a Chinese book. And
and it just became my name. Um, I think if
we see it in a more poetic way, you can
(14:07):
say from the very beginning, I want to create this
persona that has no background, just ordinary individual. But then
I use my art to fulfill the identity of it,
to make this character alive, to show the world that
anybody can do this and it doesn't need to have a,
(14:28):
you know, a very strong background or special backstory, and
you can do that as well, but in the same
time giving me a layer of protection for me to
hide from the police as long as possible.
S2 (14:42):
And at this time, you were receiving a lot of
messages of abuse on social media. Is that right? Yeah.
And so the Chinese government didn't know who you were.
But can you tell me about the sort of messages
you were receiving?
S3 (14:54):
Um, well, this kind of harassment is non-stop on my
social media for a very long time, whether it's Twitter
or Instagram. So what they do majorly come from two channels.
One is from direct message. You know, my box is
always full. It's always this as a consultation or even
(15:16):
death threat. Um, non-stop. But on the public side, they
were creating a lot of character assassination by defamation, saying,
you know, I'm not talented, I'm a criminal in China
and escape to Australia. That's why I hate China and
creating those critical content. Um, so yeah, that's what they
(15:39):
do when they cannot. Denying your talents and your art.
They try to deny your identity and make story about
your personal life and things like that.
S2 (15:48):
And so throughout this time, your profile was growing online.
You started to be written about in international publications in
America and and Europe. Your work started being published in
some of these publications. In 2018, you were set to
have a major exhibition in Hong Kong. As a result
of all this exposure, how did you come to be
(16:09):
involved in the exhibition and what happened?
S3 (16:14):
Um, so by the time I'm also a long time
contributor to a media in Hong Kong called the Free
Hong Kong Press. Um, and they were doing this, uh,
Freedom Festival in Hong Kong in 2018. And one of
the major events would be this art exhibition. And obviously,
(16:34):
I'm very excited to to be a part of it.
And it also, uh, was my first major international national exhibition.
So for the exhibition, there's a lot of cartooning, but
also installation and the performing works will be presented. It
became a multi-organization associated event, including Amnesty International, Journalists Without Borders.
(17:01):
And in the opening, we were planning to invite a
very famous activist, Joshua Wong. Joshua Wong is a teenager activist,
being merged from 2014 umbrella movement in Hong Kong, and
the umbrella movement is a calling for universal election in
Hong Kong to truly bring democracy to this city. And
(17:25):
because the Chinese government is trying to controlling the political
system in Hong Kong and denying their basic rights. So
as young as a teenage Joshua Wong was the leading
figure for the major protest of basically campaigning in the
most busy area in Hong Kong for months, and after
that he continued to, uh, doing his campaign and activism
(17:48):
and even started a political party. And he got very
famous because his young age. So he's coming to the event,
makes it very high profile. And by the time Pussy Riot,
the Russian dissident band was touring Hong Kong as well,
so they agreed to come to the event as well.
(18:10):
I guess that makes, um, the exhibition such a threat
to the Chinese government and for its controlling in Hong Kong.
So they decide to sabotage the show, um, with all
that means.
S2 (18:25):
So you were contacted by your your family at home
in China. And what did they say to you?
S3 (18:31):
So what happened is they, the Chinese government eventually find
a way to trace down my identity just before the exhibition. Vision,
and they starting to take in my relatives back in
China to the police station for interrogation, basically harassing them
and and scaring them in order to sending a message
(18:55):
back to me saying that now we know who you are.
We know all of your family members. We'll take them
one by one to the police station until you giving
up this exhibition. And not just this exhibition, but your
entire art career. Um, and they're also adding this threat
to the people who are helping me organize the show
(19:16):
in Hong Kong, saying that the Chinese national security police
in Shanghai will actually go to the opening. If I
choose to proceed to the show. And I have to
remind all our audience, that is 2018. Long before the
national security law was enforced in Hong Kong 2019. So
(19:36):
it's kind of unthinkable for the police in China, National
security police in China would actually go to Hong Kong
in that time when the city still enjoyed its autonomy.
And obviously, it's not just a threat to me, but
also to my family and also to all organizations and
helpers for me in Hong Kong. So unfortunately, a group
(19:59):
decision was made eventually and we just have to cancel
the show for protecting the people who connect to me,
including myself, my family and and the people who work
for me in Hong Kong.
S2 (20:13):
That was obviously hugely disappointing and a big a big
moment for you. But something very interesting happened after this
in Hong Kong. So the cancellation made global news again.
Then the protesters in Hong Kong started to become very
interested in your work. Can you tell me about that?
S3 (20:31):
Right. I think the cancelling of my exhibition is almost
a sign for what is happening to Hong Kong next.
Because after six months, this new extradition law was about
to be passed in Hong Kong, and that will give
the Chinese authority a legal arm to actually threatening and
(20:52):
harassing everyone in Hong Kong. So people say enough is
enough and starting to take to the streets and protest.
Then that is the massive protesting in 2019, starting from
Hong Kong. And by the time I feel, you know,
it's it's unacceptable for me to just giving up all
my art career and just because they know who I am.
(21:16):
And and I think being an artist and working as
an artist has become a part of my identity, has
become my identity itself. And I have to start up again.
And basically coming out from the closet of silence and
join the protest with my art to show my gratitude
(21:37):
to Hong Kong for the city that supporting me for
such a long time. So as the protest is beginning,
I'm starting to contribute cartooning every day, just following along
the developments of this campaign. It's really amazing because the
message that I do is I will respond to certain
(21:58):
events and creating artworks and put it online free for downloading.
So anyone from Hong Kong who attended the protest will
be able to have the artwork in their hands than
print it out. So that was a truly marvelous experience
for me because before that, it's as if my show
is killed. But now the entire bloody city becomes my gallery.
(22:21):
I think this is the highest honor any artist could ask.
S2 (22:25):
What an amazing experience sitting there in Melbourne watching your
your art come to life on on the other side
of the world. So at this time, the Chinese government
now knew your name. They were. They were threatening your family. But.
But you still hadn't exposed your face at this time.
And there was a documentary being produced about about you.
(22:46):
Can you tell me about that documentary?
S3 (22:48):
So the documentary is called China's Are for dissidents, and
in this documentary, it is the first time I actually
reveal my face to the public. So before that, I
always wearing different masks if I have to be in
a public event. Um, and, and actually, it's kind of
amazing for the making of this documentary because when we started,
(23:11):
it was three years ago before the final reveal and
when we started. We have to be very careful to
hide my identity. There's no shot while filming from my
front face. They would also have to, uh, we are
also even considering hiring a voice actor to basically covering
(23:32):
my voice because also, you know, the audio, uh, well,
trace can be Identity can be used to identify me,
but I guess the plane never catches the change. And
then this documentary just providing me a best chance to actually,
you know, throwing this middle finger to the Chinese government,
(23:53):
saying that I'm not afraid of you anymore and you
cannot control me just by knowing my identity. You know,
I'm going to show my face to the world. I'm
going to own the narrative and the direction of my life.
So I choose to basically show my face in the
end of the documentary. And it's aired, uh, well, publicly
(24:14):
in Australia and being, you know, also on TV and
big screen in many countries around the world.
S2 (24:21):
That aired on the ABC at a significant anniversary. Yeah.
Can you tell me what the anniversary was?
S3 (24:28):
Yeah, it is actually aired on the 30th anniversary of
Tiananmen massacre, which is a significant date for the development
of China's democracy.
S2 (24:53):
So around this time you were blowing up in Hong Kong.
Your profile was increasing around the world. You were back
in Melbourne, and you began to notice that you were
being followed in your daily life. Can you tell me
about that?
S3 (25:08):
Yeah. So obviously the Chinese government has known my identity
and the harassment and all those threats has been shifted. And,
you know, more like targeting on me directly. So what
happened is I've been experiencing a lot of following incidents
in Australia, in Melbourne. Um, and I remember one time
(25:32):
actually just before the documentary was, was out. But after
the announcement of the screening that I got followed by
four very suspicious persons on a public transportation. So I
don't really drive because I'm worrying that, you know, my
plate number would giving my identity and address and things
(25:52):
like that. So I use public transportation a lot, and
I lived in an area where you don't have a
lot of, uh, Asian neighbors. I particularly choose that for
security reasons. And and so that would be very peculiar, certainly,
that I found myself surrounded by four middle aged Asian male,
(26:15):
all wearing a Bluetooth, same Bluetooth device on their ear
and sitting surrounded me. Um, I mean, as this is
an artist, you can't get paranoid. And I always try
to be careful, but I don't want to be, uh,
you know, too much, uh, kind of overcautious on that.
(26:36):
So in order to prove my worrying, I choose to
get off the bus before the destination. Just a randomly
decision by jumping off the bus. And guess what? Those
people starting to following me right in the same stop.
And I did this very weird turn after I walking
(26:58):
off the bus. So I was walking in one direction
and then do a very sharp U-turn and walk opposite
to these people. So I see their face and I
cross them. Then I went to a wally, and in
that way I think there's no coincidence that I should
still see them, but then they appear in the Wally
as well. So I remember that day. I have to
(27:20):
hide into the supermarket, where there are a lot of
people around for about 40 to 40 minutes to an hour,
just to making sure they're no longer telling me, um,
and other experience has happening to my film director, Danny Ben-moshe,
when he is, you know, filming B-roll in the city.
(27:41):
And there's also very strange cars parking outside of his
residence with a mao Zedong decoration in the car, basically
almost like a message that we are here, we know
what you are doing, and this kind of thing has
been happening again and again in Australia. And the pattern
will be, if I ever have a chance to do
(28:04):
major events, then something like this would happen. And what
they also will do is sending people to taking pictures
for the event and the people taking pictures of the
people who are working for me in those events in
Australia as well.
S2 (28:22):
It's very disturbing for most people listening to this, the
idea of someone following them would be, uh, upsetting and
hard to imagine. But among the Chinese dissident community. Is
this sort of thing expected here?
S3 (28:37):
It is very much, um, I think because Australia's relationship
with China is unfortunately very close, because our relying on
China economically. So this case has been quite common among
the dissident community in Australia. Anyone who dare to speak
(28:59):
up would receive some form of harassment, sometimes online. Sometimes
it goes physical as well.
S2 (29:08):
So I think most readers would be unaware of these
ways that China can get at you in Australia, when
something like this happens, uh, who do you contact if
you believe that, uh, that foreign agents are following you
or trying to intimidate you? Who do you contact in Australia?
S3 (29:25):
Well, that's the part I have to say. I feel
a little bit disappointed. Obviously, I have a very close
contact with the Federal Police, with ASIO, because a lot
of them are are actually a national security threat to
our country, but also posting a very serious personal threat
(29:45):
to myself. But the thing is, um, I don't feel
like I have received enough protection. I think I contribute
more information to the authority than the protection they're sending
back to me.
S2 (30:00):
And this isn't just a threat in Australia, is it?
Last year you had an exhibition in Europe and you
received a warning before travelling home, didn't you? Can you
tell me about that?
S3 (30:12):
Um. So I had a major exhibition in Warsaw in Poland,
and it was in the Yazdovsky Museum, which is a
like NGV level of National museum in, in Poland. Obviously
it became a very popular and high profile exhibition. And
then what happened first is the Chinese embassy in Warsaw
(30:34):
starting to sending emails and calling people in the museum.
Then even the consular, whose name is Xiao Dong Yi,
who came in person to the castle without appointment, demanding
the meeting the director and asking the show to be canceled. Um,
(30:55):
of course they will frame my show as anti-China, even
racism against Chinese people and saying it is hurting the
Chinese feeling. But what's more ambiguous compared with previous harassment
is usually the so-called phrase of hurting the Chinese. Feeling
is very abstract. It's a slogan. But this time, um, Mr. Xiao,
(31:18):
the Chinese consulate said it actually meaning that it will
hurting the Chinese students in Warsaw. And they cannot guarantee
if those students will come to the exhibition and try
to do something to you. So we're only here to
do you a favor to ask you to cancel the show. Otherwise,
(31:39):
it will be bad for our diplomatic relationship between China
and Poland. It will not end well. Um, so after
those very blunt threats, I'm very grateful that the OSCE, um,
Castle Contemporary Art Museum didn't back down. Instead, they sending
(32:02):
a public announcement saying we stand with the freedom of
expression for this artist, as well as the freedom to
know for the Polish citizen in this country. Um, obviously
this is helping the profile and exposure for the show tremendously,
but it also makes the Chinese government more furious. And
(32:25):
that's when I'm starting to receive tips. IPS, uh, from
our authority. Australian authority. That on my way back to
Melbourne from Poland after the exhibition, I need to be
very careful to choose the flight, to not going through
many countries which might have extradition bill with China or
(32:46):
have high risk of being kidnapped by the Chinese agency.
So what I did is I actually cancelled my original
flight and rebooking another one. Obviously, this is a very, um, troublesome, um,
new normalcy for me now. And as you can imagine,
(33:09):
there's only a handful of countries which are, um, you know,
solid democratic system that I can fly through or fly to,
and all the other countries could potentially be my final
destination to the Chinese prison. Um, even though the Chinese
government didn't manage to sabotage my exhibition in Warsaw and
(33:31):
other other exhibitions in Italy and in Czech in the
previous years. But what it created is a very high
bar for any other museum or institution who is willing
to have my show in the future. And then it's
almost a guarantee that the Chinese authority will do something
to cancel the show or it will be damaged. You know,
(33:54):
quote unquote, for the diplomatic relationship between those countries and China.
S2 (33:58):
But what about Australia? Where can we see you in Australia?
Which gallery are you signed up with?
S3 (34:03):
Well, that's the heartbroken part, that even though I've lived
in Australia for such a long time and I'm a
citizen in Australia, but unfortunately I think the censorship that
in Australia, in the art world is, is just tremendous.
That simply I do not have any representation in Australia
(34:25):
with any commercial gallery. It's not that I didn't try,
you know, as working in this industry for a long time.
You make friends and usually the connection and opportunity happen
with those relationships. I do have meeting with several, um,
art directors, sometimes even from the function of Human Rights Watch.
(34:48):
As you can imagine, those human rights organizations would have
philanthropists who supporting their works. And then I get to
meet when I was invited as a guest speaker. But
even for connection like that, that I don't have a chance.
Because even for those galleries who are putting money for
human rights organization, they're still worrying about sabotage from the
(35:12):
Chinese government. Um, I think the Chinese government knowing the
power of culture and contemporary art, and they have very
clear intention to controlling the industry, the narrative through market,
which means if you have a commercial gallery and if
you want to. Sell your artwork to the booming middle
(35:33):
class or rich people in China, then you. Can't representing me.
Otherwise you simply lose that chunk of the market. It
goes the other direction as well if you want to,
representing some Chinese artists in the Australian art market. But
then the Chinese government find out I'm on your guest list,
then you don't have that opportunity anymore. And as for
(35:57):
the government funded institution like, you know, NGV and other galleries, um,
I don't want to be sound bitter because I have
to say that for those galleries it's very much, um,
curatorial invitation based. I cannot prove solely proof that they
(36:17):
didn't choose me because my art is not good enough. Um,
but also, I feel this invisible hand is controlling the
selection process. They don't want to agitate the Chinese government
when embassy or consulate will come to NGV and protest directly.
(36:39):
I think there must be some some reason behind this
selection of my art for all those years, but apparently
it is also very hard to prove. I have to
say this is just my speculation.
S2 (36:52):
And it's not like you don't have a profile. As
we mentioned earlier, you've been written up in major publications
around the world. Uh, I haven't mentioned yet, but you
worked with famed artist AI Weiwei, and as the Age's cartoonist,
you won the Walkley Award last year, which was brilliant. Congratulations.
Thank you. Fast forward to this year. You were in Melbourne,
(37:16):
and this is perhaps for me, one of the strangest
parts of your story. Yeah. And you meet in person
with Cheng Lei, the Australian journalist who was detained in
China for three years. The two of you had chatted
online a number of times before this point, but it's
the first time you're meeting in person, or so you thought.
Tell me about that meeting and what Cheng Lei revealed
(37:39):
to you.
S3 (37:39):
So I've been talking online with Charlie after she's freed
from China back to Australia. I think I really admire
that his courage, her courage to going through all those
struggles and, you know, keep a very positive attitude. And, um,
(38:01):
you know, I'm grateful to meeting her in this actually
private function. And so when I saw her, I just
go direct to her to say, hey, this is great
to finally meet. But her reaction is rather unexpected. She's like, well,
we've already met each other. Don't you forget that as
(38:22):
a knight, I'm like, what other night? Then she explains
that she was in this actually, uh, standing committee gig
with Vicky Xu, another very talented and courageous Chinese citizen. Um,
and she was there, you know, uh, to crack jokes
(38:42):
for the event. And after the event, someone approached to
her claiming to be Bardiya, and introduce himself to her as.
S4 (38:50):
An imposter.
S3 (38:51):
And an imposter. Yes. Identity thief? Um, obviously, because we talked,
but we didn't see each other. And I believe that
person might have similar views as me. So it's it's
it's kind of natural for her to, to to be
polite and think, this is me. And then they started
to have conversation. And Chandler even introduced her friends like
(39:13):
other activists. Um, and her friends to him and even
translated for him for some occasion. Um, so after hearing that,
I was totally in shock because I was never there
for the night. And she's also totally in shock as well,
because she was basically accepting him as a new friend
(39:36):
and giving him some information. Um, you know, the more
I think about it, the more scary it becomes, because
in order to pulling out such, um, action for this
imposer that he has to have a pre-knowledge that I'm
not going to be there on the night. And you
(39:56):
have to be very cautious on asking me because there
are people knowing me in that event. But regardless, um,
he did that. Um, and this time it's just for
introduce himself for chunlei. But next time, um, he maybe
such action can be carried out to do more damage
to me, um, to make crime that I didn't do
(40:18):
or something like that. So now it's not just this
virtual reality for character assassination by making stories, but actually
produce a real story by using a fake body hotel
right here in Melbourne in Australia.
S2 (40:35):
It's astonishing. And so do you think this this person
was a Chinese agent? Do you think it could be
something else? But what do you make of it?
S3 (40:45):
It's it's very hard to tell. Basically, this is beyond
our payroll, but the police work. But I do think
there can be more investigation into this event and find
out the true motivation behind this person.
S2 (41:01):
As I mentioned before, you've you've previously worked with AI
Weiwei and possibly the best known Chinese dissident artist in
the world right now. What did he teach you about
the work that you do and the price of speaking out?
S3 (41:13):
Um, I think it's great to have experience working with such, uh,
significant artists in the world, um, one of the most
important value or lesson that I can absorb from him
is this critical stance against authority should be universal, which
(41:36):
means it's not just about China. It's not just about
a dissident against one authority, but it's about human rights
defending universally, regardless if it is in Europe, in Australia,
or for United States, as well as for China. And well,
if people following his work now, you can see more
(41:59):
of his work is more focused on the issues in
the West instead of China. Uh, obviously some people call
him a traitor now because he's no longer putting a
lot of energy on China. But when we're talking about
human rights, we also say it's a universal value. So
that just makes his action legitimate and authentic as well.
(42:23):
So for me, I think it's very important that I
will carry the same value. So my criticism is not
a personal vendetta against one government or China, but rather
to be applied universally in Australia, in Europe, in America
and the Middle East, everywhere. Every time.
S2 (42:45):
And so we've had some big news recently in the
the US, Donald, Donald Trump is uh, has been re-elected
as president. What do you think about, uh, his re-election
and China's current political situation? And do you think, uh,
this will change the geopolitical dynamics with Australia, China and
(43:06):
the US?
S3 (43:08):
Well, as a political cartoonist, I shall be happy because
you never lack of story to draw and for caricature
A of Trump that you don't need to put a
lot of lot of effort. His face itself is a
caricature already. But the downside of it is the election
(43:28):
of Trump while bringing tremendous uncertainty and chaos to the world,
even though he has a surgically kind of strong stand
against China. But I am not a Trump fan. I know, actually,
in the Chinese dissident community, there are a lot of
(43:50):
people pro-Trump because of his harsh stand against CCP. But
for me, in the end of the day, we're not
doing this fighting just for overthrow CCP. We're doing this
fighting because we believe in democracy and human rights. And
that's not something that Trump believes in at all. Uh,
(44:11):
I think for him, it's always about the grasp of power.
There's no difference for any other authoritarian leaders or dictators
around the world. You name it, XI Jinping pudding. They're
using the same playbook. So even though after Trump's election,
he might raise the tough against China, saying that China
(44:32):
have to pay this, pay that. But because he's neglecting
on human rights and his threat to democracy to the West. Um,
for me, I wouldn't I would never stand with such figure. Um,
what makes me worry the most is after Trump's presidency, um,
(44:55):
that because of the chaos he is about to bring
to the world, that the possibility of world war is
increasing beyond people's expectation in here in Australia? Um, and
I think it will be very naive to pick a
side between China and America because neither side is truly
(45:20):
heading into a peaceful, um, direction now. And it is
very important for Australia to recognize both threats and do
not easily fall into one side.
S2 (45:34):
What advice would you offer to your fellow Australian citizens
about China influence globally and here?
S3 (45:41):
I think it's very realistic for Beijing's plan to invading Taiwan.
I think it's very realistic to see China's ambition to
controlling the large Pacific region, particularly in the South China Sea.
I don't think it's warmongering calling to say XI Jinping
(46:02):
have this desire to actually wage war and break the
peace in this very particular part of the world. And
I also don't think our citizens have Seen this coming clearly. Um,
I think our current diplomatic direction with China was deviate
(46:24):
from the right way. I think it's suicide to continue
investing in connection with China economically, culturally and politically. When
the panda is about to strike and diminish another democracy
in Asia, we need those allies. We need united with Taiwan,
(46:48):
with Japan, with South Korea. They're saying that we want
democracy in this region instead of authoritarian rules. But currently,
I don't think our people have seen this very clearly,
and it's very critical for us to wake up now.
(47:09):
And knowing the threat from China has infiltrating in our
society corrupting the freedom of speech, corrupting democracy step by
step here. But in the same time, I don't think
this awareness had to be in the way of discrimination
(47:29):
against Chinese Australians here. I think there is a better
way to do this, to both valuing the voice of
Chinese population in Australia, but also in the same time
see very clear the threat from Beijing. Um, I think
the actions have to be taken right now, otherwise it
(47:52):
might be just too late.
S2 (47:55):
It's a very sobering message. So I think as you
can see, Baidu Youzhou is an intriguing character. You can
find his illustrations in the Age, and if you want
to read more of his incredible story, it's in the
Good weekend this weekend. But are you Zhao, Joe. Thank
you so much for being with us. Thank you.
S1 (48:17):
That was Patrick O'Neill interviewing Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao
on the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode,
please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get
your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations
coming soon! We chat with Olympic gold medal winning pole
(48:37):
vaulter Nina Kennedy. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you
by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud newsrooms
powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney
Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend
Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Technical assistance from Cormac Lally,
(48:59):
editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio
and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:26):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak to
the Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao. Born in Shanghai, he's
been an Australian citizen for a decade and lives in Melbourne,
where he draws for The Age, winning a Walkley Award
for his work just last year. But he speaks to
us today about being followed and threatened, which came to
(00:49):
a head this year when an imposter claiming to be
him turned up to a Chinese dissident event in Melbourne.
He also speaks to us about the difficulty of making
and showing art around the world, and the reason why
no Australian galleries will show his work. His troubling story
is revealed in his own words in the pages of
Good Weekend this week under the headline The Long Arm,
(01:13):
and was told to the host of our episode this week,
the opinion Editor, Patrick O'Neill.
S2 (01:22):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome back. So you've been an illustrator
for The Age for nearly three years now, but I
think few of our readers would know your incredible life story.
Can you start by telling us when you arrived in
Australia and why you decided to move here from Shanghai?
S3 (01:39):
Um, well, it's great to be here. It's great to
be Australia. So yeah, it has been a journey for
me to, uh, left China, uh, more than ten years ago.
And obviously the one of the most important reasons is
finding a place that I can, you know, live freely
(02:01):
as as a person and become an artist without the
fear that, you know, my work can get me into trouble. Obviously,
I'm bitter naive to say that, but at least that
was the major motivation for me to leave China by
the time, because I think in a democracy I have
(02:23):
to become a citizen for that democratic system or country,
that I shall be protected and enjoy my freedom.
S2 (02:30):
So you arrived in Australia in 2009 before then? What
was it like growing up in Shanghai, and what was
your family's history with the Chinese Communist Party?
S3 (02:41):
Well, it's it's a sad story because I'm actually born
in a very artistic family. My grandpa and his brother
were the first group of filmmakers in China, been very
active in the 1930s until 1957, when the Chinese Communist
Party is in power and they start to launch this
(03:03):
campaign against intellectuals and artists. That's when my grandpa and
his brother get into trouble, because there, you know, films.
And both of them actually got killed during the campaign.
My grandpa was sent to a forced labor camp in
the rural area in China, and we believe he died
(03:24):
because of starvation and sickness. And my grandpa's brother, great uncle,
he actually committed suicide due to the political persecution and
unbearable life. So for me, as you can imagine, I'm
growing up in such family. And they're also making my
(03:47):
dad an orphan when he was really young. So when
I came to this world, my dad's advice to me
is don't be an artist Rest or don't do anything
too intellectual or close to politics or culture, because that
was what got your grandparents get killed. So apparently growing
(04:10):
up in such an environment is kind of harsh. Um,
because I do feel like I have the talent and
desire to express in form of art, but that's not
something that my family would like me to do. Um,
so yeah, my dad always kind of joking, saying, you know,
don't be an artist body. I would rather you to
(04:33):
be a barber or a chef. Um, so you can
survive with your life skills without the trouble of all the,
you know, political horror that my grandparents have been through.
But apparently, um, he underestimated the rebel from a teenage.
The more you know, you're told not to do. The
(04:55):
strong desire that grow in me to actually try it. Um,
so yeah, growing China is an experience of kind of
shadowed by my family history. But in the same time,
I also feel very proud that once upon a time,
my great generation in China were very successful and creative,
(05:18):
and I always look up to them and I want
to be a person like them.
S2 (05:24):
And that was the the 100 Flowers Bloom campaign, where
your your grandfather was affected. Is that right? In the 50s? Yes, yes. Uh, but, uh, look,
I know Australian parents here too, don't want their children
to become artists for different reasons. Perhaps. Uh, but you
first studied to become a lawyer, is that right?
S3 (05:44):
So I studied in the law school. Um, I was
studying the law of copyrights, you know, a bit of
touch about culture, but it's also kind of in the
safe zone of it. But, um, I know that if
I go to that, um, route, I will have a
very fixed life in China. I can see the end
(06:05):
of my life, which is getting a job, having the
burden of apartment mortgage in Shanghai, and that's it. My
life is fixed, and I will never be aligned to
chase my dreams. So, yeah, it's not something that I
really want.
S2 (06:22):
So instead, you. You came to Australia. So? So tell
me about that. What did you do when you arrived
in Australia?
S3 (06:28):
Um, so obviously it's a long plan to staying here,
even though we are immigration country. But the system is
also very complex and full of struggle. So, uh, long
story short, Australia only needs people here to do the
job that the locals don't want to do. And you
(06:50):
have majors like teaching, which is hard work and low
payment and other things. So I came here to study
as a as a teacher for master's degree for two years.
Then I worked for two years until I have the
permanent visa and lately joined the citizenship. And that's when
(07:11):
I finally, finally can, you know, decide where my life
can go. But those are the time, uh, a very
precious 4 to 5 years of my great youth to
to just achieve a life status that I can stay here.
But I'm still grateful that I can be reborn in
(07:32):
this country and finally chasing my dream.
S2 (07:35):
That's great. And so then you. You started creating art
because you finally felt free. You finally felt protected. And
now that you're in Australia, could you briefly describe your
your style or what what kind of art do you create?
S3 (07:51):
Um, so my art is very much about the topic
of human rights record from China and gradually expanding to
political content, human rights issues around the world, also in
Australia as well, because I am grow up in such
family environment that I know how a political system could
(08:13):
infect a family and in fact destroying it. And obviously,
I always believe artist has to be very truthful to
our life, because those things that we created is a
mirror of what we've been living through. And for me,
it's very naturally to putting my art around the topic
(08:34):
of human rights and political system, and in hope that
one day these things can be exposed and the system
can be changed. I really believe that art is an
extra form of language that we use to identify ourselves. Um,
(08:59):
you know, modern philosophy always defined that language is not
just a tool. It's actually something that defines us. Um,
it's it's actually that, you know, what we think is,
is in form of language and art is our language
is beyond just written or spoken words, but visual or
(09:20):
other sensory. So speaking about that matter is also a
recreating process of myself through those art. Um, I started
to posting like political satire and artwork for social media
regarding China for my very early, um, practice. But then
(09:45):
I starting to adapting more different styles, not just in
form of political cartooning, but installation, performance art and all sorts.
S2 (09:55):
And I mean, your work is critical of the of
China's government. Um, you know, you depict XI Jinping in
a lot of your imagery. What happened when you started
sharing that on social media? Where did you first share
it on social media and what were the consequences?
S3 (10:13):
So I actually started to posting my work on Weibo,
which is a Chinese equivalent to, um, Twitter. Um, about
13 years ago. Um, well, I started just as a hobby. Um,
because as you can imagine, when social media just got
(10:35):
invented to get popular in the society, even for authoritarian
government like China, it's a new thing for them. And
they needed time to adapt to apply the censorship and
the control. But you have this very brief window that
people really jump on the platform and express whatever they like.
So that was the time, probably just before XI Jinping
(10:56):
is in power, and we can see almost like a
spring on the internet that suddenly netizens from China are
getting on the platform and making their expression on all
kinds of social issues and conflicts. And that inspired me
and encouraged me to, to to be a part of it.
(11:16):
So that's my initial motivation to draw, because I think
compared with, you know, written or, you know, language form,
my strength is always drawing and my hobby is always
in this drawing form. So I started making political cartoons
very naturally. Uh, but obviously this spring ends very fast, um,
(11:37):
as the CCP or China's Communist Party realizing social media
can be such a threat to its control. And also
in the same time they having the time to develop
a set of tools very efficiently, censoring not just words,
but also images online. And that's when I feel like
(11:59):
the platform in China is no longer really useful. When
my Weibo account got deleted for 37 times and and
as you can imagine, how a struggle that I'll be.
So after that, I basically become a refugee on social
media from China and migrant to, um, Twitter. Uh, well,
(12:25):
I have to say that is a Twitter before X.
So again, I know the new trend is escaping from
Twitter to blue sky for a more free platform, but
that was a story before. So I started being more
active on Twitter and started gaining a bigger platform like
audiences and a chance to post for other medias as well.
S2 (12:46):
And most artists would love to be well known and recognized,
but you just you go by one name. It's not
your your birth name. No. But also, why is that?
Why did you choose a pseudonym and how?
S3 (13:02):
Um, well, obviously there's a certain price you have to
pay if you want to be a free artist in China. Um,
and the price is you get, uh, arrested by the
authorities once they find your art is being very critical
to the government. So from the very beginning, I know
(13:22):
it will not be safe for me to use my
legal name. It will just give away for the Chinese
police to find me out and basically cut off my
art career too soon. So I have to create a persona,
a creator identity. And obviously I also don't want to
use a name that can be associated to my real life.
(13:44):
So the best way to do it is just, you know,
learning from the data isn't truly randomly picking words from
a book. So the first three character bar detail is
the words that I find from a Chinese book. And
and it just became my name. Um, I think if
we see it in a more poetic way, you can
(14:07):
say from the very beginning, I want to create this
persona that has no background, just ordinary individual. But then
I use my art to fulfill the identity of it,
to make this character alive, to show the world that
anybody can do this and it doesn't need to have a,
(14:28):
you know, a very strong background or special backstory, and
you can do that as well, but in the same
time giving me a layer of protection for me to
hide from the police as long as possible.
S2 (14:42):
And at this time, you were receiving a lot of
messages of abuse on social media. Is that right? Yeah.
And so the Chinese government didn't know who you were.
But can you tell me about the sort of messages
you were receiving?
S3 (14:54):
Um, well, this kind of harassment is non-stop on my
social media for a very long time, whether it's Twitter
or Instagram. So what they do majorly come from two channels.
One is from direct message. You know, my box is
always full. It's always this as a consultation or even
(15:16):
death threat. Um, non-stop. But on the public side, they
were creating a lot of character assassination by defamation, saying,
you know, I'm not talented, I'm a criminal in China
and escape to Australia. That's why I hate China and
creating those critical content. Um, so yeah, that's what they
(15:39):
do when they cannot. Denying your talents and your art.
They try to deny your identity and make story about
your personal life and things like that.
S2 (15:48):
And so throughout this time, your profile was growing online.
You started to be written about in international publications in
America and and Europe. Your work started being published in
some of these publications. In 2018, you were set to
have a major exhibition in Hong Kong. As a result
of all this exposure, how did you come to be
(16:09):
involved in the exhibition and what happened?
S3 (16:14):
Um, so by the time I'm also a long time
contributor to a media in Hong Kong called the Free
Hong Kong Press. Um, and they were doing this, uh,
Freedom Festival in Hong Kong in 2018. And one of
the major events would be this art exhibition. And obviously,
(16:34):
I'm very excited to to be a part of it.
And it also, uh, was my first major international national exhibition.
So for the exhibition, there's a lot of cartooning, but
also installation and the performing works will be presented. It
became a multi-organization associated event, including Amnesty International, Journalists Without Borders.
(17:01):
And in the opening, we were planning to invite a
very famous activist, Joshua Wong. Joshua Wong is a teenager activist,
being merged from 2014 umbrella movement in Hong Kong, and
the umbrella movement is a calling for universal election in
Hong Kong to truly bring democracy to this city. And
(17:25):
because the Chinese government is trying to controlling the political
system in Hong Kong and denying their basic rights. So
as young as a teenage Joshua Wong was the leading
figure for the major protest of basically campaigning in the
most busy area in Hong Kong for months, and after
that he continued to, uh, doing his campaign and activism
(17:48):
and even started a political party. And he got very
famous because his young age. So he's coming to the event,
makes it very high profile. And by the time Pussy Riot,
the Russian dissident band was touring Hong Kong as well,
so they agreed to come to the event as well.
(18:10):
I guess that makes, um, the exhibition such a threat
to the Chinese government and for its controlling in Hong Kong.
So they decide to sabotage the show, um, with all
that means.
S2 (18:25):
So you were contacted by your your family at home
in China. And what did they say to you?
S3 (18:31):
So what happened is they, the Chinese government eventually find
a way to trace down my identity just before the exhibition. Vision,
and they starting to take in my relatives back in
China to the police station for interrogation, basically harassing them
and and scaring them in order to sending a message
(18:55):
back to me saying that now we know who you are.
We know all of your family members. We'll take them
one by one to the police station until you giving
up this exhibition. And not just this exhibition, but your
entire art career. Um, and they're also adding this threat
to the people who are helping me organize the show
(19:16):
in Hong Kong, saying that the Chinese national security police
in Shanghai will actually go to the opening. If I
choose to proceed to the show. And I have to
remind all our audience, that is 2018. Long before the
national security law was enforced in Hong Kong 2019. So
(19:36):
it's kind of unthinkable for the police in China, National
security police in China would actually go to Hong Kong
in that time when the city still enjoyed its autonomy.
And obviously, it's not just a threat to me, but
also to my family and also to all organizations and
helpers for me in Hong Kong. So unfortunately, a group
(19:59):
decision was made eventually and we just have to cancel
the show for protecting the people who connect to me,
including myself, my family and and the people who work
for me in Hong Kong.
S2 (20:13):
That was obviously hugely disappointing and a big a big
moment for you. But something very interesting happened after this
in Hong Kong. So the cancellation made global news again.
Then the protesters in Hong Kong started to become very
interested in your work. Can you tell me about that?
S3 (20:31):
Right. I think the cancelling of my exhibition is almost
a sign for what is happening to Hong Kong next.
Because after six months, this new extradition law was about
to be passed in Hong Kong, and that will give
the Chinese authority a legal arm to actually threatening and
(20:52):
harassing everyone in Hong Kong. So people say enough is
enough and starting to take to the streets and protest.
Then that is the massive protesting in 2019, starting from
Hong Kong. And by the time I feel, you know,
it's it's unacceptable for me to just giving up all
my art career and just because they know who I am.
(21:16):
And and I think being an artist and working as
an artist has become a part of my identity, has
become my identity itself. And I have to start up again.
And basically coming out from the closet of silence and
join the protest with my art to show my gratitude
(21:37):
to Hong Kong for the city that supporting me for
such a long time. So as the protest is beginning,
I'm starting to contribute cartooning every day, just following along
the developments of this campaign. It's really amazing because the
message that I do is I will respond to certain
(21:58):
events and creating artworks and put it online free for downloading.
So anyone from Hong Kong who attended the protest will
be able to have the artwork in their hands than
print it out. So that was a truly marvelous experience
for me because before that, it's as if my show
is killed. But now the entire bloody city becomes my gallery.
(22:21):
I think this is the highest honor any artist could ask.
S2 (22:25):
What an amazing experience sitting there in Melbourne watching your
your art come to life on on the other side
of the world. So at this time, the Chinese government
now knew your name. They were. They were threatening your family. But.
But you still hadn't exposed your face at this time.
And there was a documentary being produced about about you.
(22:46):
Can you tell me about that documentary?
S3 (22:48):
So the documentary is called China's Are for dissidents, and
in this documentary, it is the first time I actually
reveal my face to the public. So before that, I
always wearing different masks if I have to be in
a public event. Um, and, and actually, it's kind of
amazing for the making of this documentary because when we started,
(23:11):
it was three years ago before the final reveal and
when we started. We have to be very careful to
hide my identity. There's no shot while filming from my
front face. They would also have to, uh, we are
also even considering hiring a voice actor to basically covering
(23:32):
my voice because also, you know, the audio, uh, well,
trace can be Identity can be used to identify me,
but I guess the plane never catches the change. And
then this documentary just providing me a best chance to actually,
you know, throwing this middle finger to the Chinese government,
(23:53):
saying that I'm not afraid of you anymore and you
cannot control me just by knowing my identity. You know,
I'm going to show my face to the world. I'm
going to own the narrative and the direction of my life.
So I choose to basically show my face in the
end of the documentary. And it's aired, uh, well, publicly
(24:14):
in Australia and being, you know, also on TV and
big screen in many countries around the world.
S2 (24:21):
That aired on the ABC at a significant anniversary. Yeah.
Can you tell me what the anniversary was?
S3 (24:28):
Yeah, it is actually aired on the 30th anniversary of
Tiananmen massacre, which is a significant date for the development
of China's democracy.
S2 (24:53):
So around this time you were blowing up in Hong Kong.
Your profile was increasing around the world. You were back
in Melbourne, and you began to notice that you were
being followed in your daily life. Can you tell me
about that?
S3 (25:08):
Yeah. So obviously the Chinese government has known my identity
and the harassment and all those threats has been shifted. And,
you know, more like targeting on me directly. So what
happened is I've been experiencing a lot of following incidents
in Australia, in Melbourne. Um, and I remember one time
(25:32):
actually just before the documentary was, was out. But after
the announcement of the screening that I got followed by
four very suspicious persons on a public transportation. So I
don't really drive because I'm worrying that, you know, my
plate number would giving my identity and address and things
(25:52):
like that. So I use public transportation a lot, and
I lived in an area where you don't have a
lot of, uh, Asian neighbors. I particularly choose that for
security reasons. And and so that would be very peculiar, certainly,
that I found myself surrounded by four middle aged Asian male,
(26:15):
all wearing a Bluetooth, same Bluetooth device on their ear
and sitting surrounded me. Um, I mean, as this is
an artist, you can't get paranoid. And I always try
to be careful, but I don't want to be, uh,
you know, too much, uh, kind of overcautious on that.
(26:36):
So in order to prove my worrying, I choose to
get off the bus before the destination. Just a randomly
decision by jumping off the bus. And guess what? Those
people starting to following me right in the same stop.
And I did this very weird turn after I walking
(26:58):
off the bus. So I was walking in one direction
and then do a very sharp U-turn and walk opposite
to these people. So I see their face and I
cross them. Then I went to a wally, and in
that way I think there's no coincidence that I should
still see them, but then they appear in the Wally
as well. So I remember that day. I have to
(27:20):
hide into the supermarket, where there are a lot of
people around for about 40 to 40 minutes to an hour,
just to making sure they're no longer telling me, um,
and other experience has happening to my film director, Danny Ben-moshe,
when he is, you know, filming B-roll in the city.
(27:41):
And there's also very strange cars parking outside of his
residence with a mao Zedong decoration in the car, basically
almost like a message that we are here, we know
what you are doing, and this kind of thing has
been happening again and again in Australia. And the pattern
will be, if I ever have a chance to do
(28:04):
major events, then something like this would happen. And what
they also will do is sending people to taking pictures
for the event and the people taking pictures of the
people who are working for me in those events in
Australia as well.
S2 (28:22):
It's very disturbing for most people listening to this, the
idea of someone following them would be, uh, upsetting and
hard to imagine. But among the Chinese dissident community. Is
this sort of thing expected here?
S3 (28:37):
It is very much, um, I think because Australia's relationship
with China is unfortunately very close, because our relying on
China economically. So this case has been quite common among
the dissident community in Australia. Anyone who dare to speak
(28:59):
up would receive some form of harassment, sometimes online. Sometimes
it goes physical as well.
S2 (29:08):
So I think most readers would be unaware of these
ways that China can get at you in Australia, when
something like this happens, uh, who do you contact if
you believe that, uh, that foreign agents are following you
or trying to intimidate you? Who do you contact in Australia?
S3 (29:25):
Well, that's the part I have to say. I feel
a little bit disappointed. Obviously, I have a very close
contact with the Federal Police, with ASIO, because a lot
of them are are actually a national security threat to
our country, but also posting a very serious personal threat
(29:45):
to myself. But the thing is, um, I don't feel
like I have received enough protection. I think I contribute
more information to the authority than the protection they're sending
back to me.
S2 (30:00):
And this isn't just a threat in Australia, is it?
Last year you had an exhibition in Europe and you
received a warning before travelling home, didn't you? Can you
tell me about that?
S3 (30:12):
Um. So I had a major exhibition in Warsaw in Poland,
and it was in the Yazdovsky Museum, which is a
like NGV level of National museum in, in Poland. Obviously
it became a very popular and high profile exhibition. And
then what happened first is the Chinese embassy in Warsaw
(30:34):
starting to sending emails and calling people in the museum.
Then even the consular, whose name is Xiao Dong Yi,
who came in person to the castle without appointment, demanding
the meeting the director and asking the show to be canceled. Um,
(30:55):
of course they will frame my show as anti-China, even
racism against Chinese people and saying it is hurting the
Chinese feeling. But what's more ambiguous compared with previous harassment
is usually the so-called phrase of hurting the Chinese. Feeling
is very abstract. It's a slogan. But this time, um, Mr. Xiao,
(31:18):
the Chinese consulate said it actually meaning that it will
hurting the Chinese students in Warsaw. And they cannot guarantee
if those students will come to the exhibition and try
to do something to you. So we're only here to
do you a favor to ask you to cancel the show. Otherwise,
(31:39):
it will be bad for our diplomatic relationship between China
and Poland. It will not end well. Um, so after
those very blunt threats, I'm very grateful that the OSCE, um,
Castle Contemporary Art Museum didn't back down. Instead, they sending
(32:02):
a public announcement saying we stand with the freedom of
expression for this artist, as well as the freedom to
know for the Polish citizen in this country. Um, obviously
this is helping the profile and exposure for the show tremendously,
but it also makes the Chinese government more furious. And
(32:25):
that's when I'm starting to receive tips. IPS, uh, from
our authority. Australian authority. That on my way back to
Melbourne from Poland after the exhibition, I need to be
very careful to choose the flight, to not going through
many countries which might have extradition bill with China or
(32:46):
have high risk of being kidnapped by the Chinese agency.
So what I did is I actually cancelled my original
flight and rebooking another one. Obviously, this is a very, um, troublesome, um,
new normalcy for me now. And as you can imagine,
(33:09):
there's only a handful of countries which are, um, you know,
solid democratic system that I can fly through or fly to,
and all the other countries could potentially be my final
destination to the Chinese prison. Um, even though the Chinese
government didn't manage to sabotage my exhibition in Warsaw and
(33:31):
other other exhibitions in Italy and in Czech in the
previous years. But what it created is a very high
bar for any other museum or institution who is willing
to have my show in the future. And then it's
almost a guarantee that the Chinese authority will do something
to cancel the show or it will be damaged. You know,
(33:54):
quote unquote, for the diplomatic relationship between those countries and China.
S2 (33:58):
But what about Australia? Where can we see you in Australia?
Which gallery are you signed up with?
S3 (34:03):
Well, that's the heartbroken part, that even though I've lived
in Australia for such a long time and I'm a
citizen in Australia, but unfortunately I think the censorship that
in Australia, in the art world is, is just tremendous.
That simply I do not have any representation in Australia
(34:25):
with any commercial gallery. It's not that I didn't try,
you know, as working in this industry for a long time.
You make friends and usually the connection and opportunity happen
with those relationships. I do have meeting with several, um,
art directors, sometimes even from the function of Human Rights Watch.
(34:48):
As you can imagine, those human rights organizations would have
philanthropists who supporting their works. And then I get to
meet when I was invited as a guest speaker. But
even for connection like that, that I don't have a chance.
Because even for those galleries who are putting money for
human rights organization, they're still worrying about sabotage from the
(35:12):
Chinese government. Um, I think the Chinese government knowing the
power of culture and contemporary art, and they have very
clear intention to controlling the industry, the narrative through market,
which means if you have a commercial gallery and if
you want to. Sell your artwork to the booming middle
(35:33):
class or rich people in China, then you. Can't representing me.
Otherwise you simply lose that chunk of the market. It
goes the other direction as well if you want to,
representing some Chinese artists in the Australian art market. But
then the Chinese government find out I'm on your guest list,
then you don't have that opportunity anymore. And as for
(35:57):
the government funded institution like, you know, NGV and other galleries, um,
I don't want to be sound bitter because I have
to say that for those galleries it's very much, um,
curatorial invitation based. I cannot prove solely proof that they
(36:17):
didn't choose me because my art is not good enough. Um,
but also, I feel this invisible hand is controlling the
selection process. They don't want to agitate the Chinese government
when embassy or consulate will come to NGV and protest directly.
(36:39):
I think there must be some some reason behind this
selection of my art for all those years, but apparently
it is also very hard to prove. I have to
say this is just my speculation.
S2 (36:52):
And it's not like you don't have a profile. As
we mentioned earlier, you've been written up in major publications
around the world. Uh, I haven't mentioned yet, but you
worked with famed artist AI Weiwei, and as the Age's cartoonist,
you won the Walkley Award last year, which was brilliant. Congratulations.
Thank you. Fast forward to this year. You were in Melbourne,
(37:16):
and this is perhaps for me, one of the strangest
parts of your story. Yeah. And you meet in person
with Cheng Lei, the Australian journalist who was detained in
China for three years. The two of you had chatted
online a number of times before this point, but it's
the first time you're meeting in person, or so you thought.
Tell me about that meeting and what Cheng Lei revealed
(37:39):
to you.
S3 (37:39):
So I've been talking online with Charlie after she's freed
from China back to Australia. I think I really admire
that his courage, her courage to going through all those
struggles and, you know, keep a very positive attitude. And, um,
(38:01):
you know, I'm grateful to meeting her in this actually
private function. And so when I saw her, I just
go direct to her to say, hey, this is great
to finally meet. But her reaction is rather unexpected. She's like, well,
we've already met each other. Don't you forget that as
(38:22):
a knight, I'm like, what other night? Then she explains
that she was in this actually, uh, standing committee gig
with Vicky Xu, another very talented and courageous Chinese citizen. Um,
and she was there, you know, uh, to crack jokes
(38:42):
for the event. And after the event, someone approached to
her claiming to be Bardiya, and introduce himself to her as.
S4 (38:50):
An imposter.
S3 (38:51):
And an imposter. Yes. Identity thief? Um, obviously, because we talked,
but we didn't see each other. And I believe that
person might have similar views as me. So it's it's
it's kind of natural for her to, to to be
polite and think, this is me. And then they started
to have conversation. And Chandler even introduced her friends like
(39:13):
other activists. Um, and her friends to him and even
translated for him for some occasion. Um, so after hearing that,
I was totally in shock because I was never there
for the night. And she's also totally in shock as well,
because she was basically accepting him as a new friend
(39:36):
and giving him some information. Um, you know, the more
I think about it, the more scary it becomes, because
in order to pulling out such, um, action for this
imposer that he has to have a pre-knowledge that I'm
not going to be there on the night. And you
(39:56):
have to be very cautious on asking me because there
are people knowing me in that event. But regardless, um,
he did that. Um, and this time it's just for
introduce himself for chunlei. But next time, um, he maybe
such action can be carried out to do more damage
to me, um, to make crime that I didn't do
(40:18):
or something like that. So now it's not just this
virtual reality for character assassination by making stories, but actually
produce a real story by using a fake body hotel
right here in Melbourne in Australia.
S2 (40:35):
It's astonishing. And so do you think this this person
was a Chinese agent? Do you think it could be
something else? But what do you make of it?
S3 (40:45):
It's it's very hard to tell. Basically, this is beyond
our payroll, but the police work. But I do think
there can be more investigation into this event and find
out the true motivation behind this person.
S2 (41:01):
As I mentioned before, you've you've previously worked with AI
Weiwei and possibly the best known Chinese dissident artist in
the world right now. What did he teach you about
the work that you do and the price of speaking out?
S3 (41:13):
Um, I think it's great to have experience working with such, uh,
significant artists in the world, um, one of the most
important value or lesson that I can absorb from him
is this critical stance against authority should be universal, which
(41:36):
means it's not just about China. It's not just about
a dissident against one authority, but it's about human rights
defending universally, regardless if it is in Europe, in Australia,
or for United States, as well as for China. And well,
if people following his work now, you can see more
(41:59):
of his work is more focused on the issues in
the West instead of China. Uh, obviously some people call
him a traitor now because he's no longer putting a
lot of energy on China. But when we're talking about
human rights, we also say it's a universal value. So
that just makes his action legitimate and authentic as well.
(42:23):
So for me, I think it's very important that I
will carry the same value. So my criticism is not
a personal vendetta against one government or China, but rather
to be applied universally in Australia, in Europe, in America
and the Middle East, everywhere. Every time.
S2 (42:45):
And so we've had some big news recently in the
the US, Donald, Donald Trump is uh, has been re-elected
as president. What do you think about, uh, his re-election
and China's current political situation? And do you think, uh,
this will change the geopolitical dynamics with Australia, China and
(43:06):
the US?
S3 (43:08):
Well, as a political cartoonist, I shall be happy because
you never lack of story to draw and for caricature
A of Trump that you don't need to put a
lot of lot of effort. His face itself is a
caricature already. But the downside of it is the election
(43:28):
of Trump while bringing tremendous uncertainty and chaos to the world,
even though he has a surgically kind of strong stand
against China. But I am not a Trump fan. I know, actually,
in the Chinese dissident community, there are a lot of
(43:50):
people pro-Trump because of his harsh stand against CCP. But
for me, in the end of the day, we're not
doing this fighting just for overthrow CCP. We're doing this
fighting because we believe in democracy and human rights. And
that's not something that Trump believes in at all. Uh,
(44:11):
I think for him, it's always about the grasp of power.
There's no difference for any other authoritarian leaders or dictators
around the world. You name it, XI Jinping pudding. They're
using the same playbook. So even though after Trump's election,
he might raise the tough against China, saying that China
(44:32):
have to pay this, pay that. But because he's neglecting
on human rights and his threat to democracy to the West. Um,
for me, I wouldn't I would never stand with such figure. Um,
what makes me worry the most is after Trump's presidency, um,
(44:55):
that because of the chaos he is about to bring
to the world, that the possibility of world war is
increasing beyond people's expectation in here in Australia? Um, and
I think it will be very naive to pick a
side between China and America because neither side is truly
(45:20):
heading into a peaceful, um, direction now. And it is
very important for Australia to recognize both threats and do
not easily fall into one side.
S2 (45:34):
What advice would you offer to your fellow Australian citizens
about China influence globally and here?
S3 (45:41):
I think it's very realistic for Beijing's plan to invading Taiwan.
I think it's very realistic to see China's ambition to
controlling the large Pacific region, particularly in the South China Sea.
I don't think it's warmongering calling to say XI Jinping
(46:02):
have this desire to actually wage war and break the
peace in this very particular part of the world. And
I also don't think our citizens have Seen this coming clearly. Um,
I think our current diplomatic direction with China was deviate
(46:24):
from the right way. I think it's suicide to continue
investing in connection with China economically, culturally and politically. When
the panda is about to strike and diminish another democracy
in Asia, we need those allies. We need united with Taiwan,
(46:48):
with Japan, with South Korea. They're saying that we want
democracy in this region instead of authoritarian rules. But currently,
I don't think our people have seen this very clearly,
and it's very critical for us to wake up now.
(47:09):
And knowing the threat from China has infiltrating in our
society corrupting the freedom of speech, corrupting democracy step by
step here. But in the same time, I don't think
this awareness had to be in the way of discrimination
(47:29):
against Chinese Australians here. I think there is a better
way to do this, to both valuing the voice of
Chinese population in Australia, but also in the same time
see very clear the threat from Beijing. Um, I think
the actions have to be taken right now, otherwise it
(47:52):
might be just too late.
S2 (47:55):
It's a very sobering message. So I think as you
can see, Baidu Youzhou is an intriguing character. You can
find his illustrations in the Age, and if you want
to read more of his incredible story, it's in the
Good weekend this weekend. But are you Zhao, Joe. Thank
you so much for being with us. Thank you.
S1 (48:17):
That was Patrick O'Neill interviewing Chinese Australian dissident artist Badiucao
on the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode,
please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get
your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations
coming soon! We chat with Olympic gold medal winning pole
(48:37):
vaulter Nina Kennedy. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you
by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud newsrooms
powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney
Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend
Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Technical assistance from Cormac Lally,
(48:59):
editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio
and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
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