June 20, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, we talk to Mark Brandi. The renowned crime novelist writes about outsiders: heroin addicts, former prisoners and child victims of poverty and violence – and joins us to chat about his new book, Eden, out on June 25. We take a look at Brandi's family background, including the racist, small-town harassment of his father – as well Brandi' earlier career in corrective services – both of which shed light on why he's drawn to people on the margins. Hosting this conversation about everything from growing up inside a country pub to working in the criminal justice system – and how good and bad luck changed Brandi’s life – is freelance writer Nicole Abadee.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:09):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:31):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Mark Brandi, the author of five crime novels starting with Wimmera,
which was published in 2017 and won the prestigious British
Crime Writers Association Debut Dagger award. Writes about outsiders, heroin addicts,
former prisoners and child victims of poverty and violence. Brandi
(00:54):
talks to us today to chat about his new book, Eden,
being released on June 25th. But we also take a
look at his family background, including the racist small town
harassment of his father, plus his career in Corrective Services,
both of which shed light on why he's drawn to
people on the margins. And hosting this conversation about everything
from growing up inside a country pub to working in
(01:17):
the criminal justice system, and how good and bad luck
change Brandy's life is freelance writer Nicole Abadie.
S2 (01:25):
Welcome, Mark.
S3 (01:26):
Thanks, Nicole.
S2 (01:27):
You have written five crime novels, starting with the multi-award
winning Wimmera, published in 2017. Your fifth? Eden will be
out in July. What I'm interested in is the subject matter.
All of them are about people who are outsiders, people
at the margins. They're heroin addicts. They're former prisoners. They're
child victims of poverty and sexual assault. And I want
(01:49):
to just explore with you what it is in your
background that's led you to write about that sort of
subject matter. It seems to me that there's two things
I'm going to ask you about them in order. The
first is your childhood, your background, and the, um, harassment
that your parents suffered in their pub in the 80s.
And the second is your work that you did in
Corrective Services. So let's start with the first. Your background.
(02:11):
Your parents, Tommaso and Tomasina, arrived in Victoria from Italy
in the 1960s. Your dad was originally a train driver,
but in 1964, he had an accident. What happened and
how did he become a part of Australia's legal history?
S3 (02:27):
Dad? Yeah. As you say, he was a train driver
on the Victorian Railways. He drove goods trains around Victoria,
which he really loved. That job, um, seeing the state.
And one day he was on his way to work, um,
he was on Victoria Parade in Melbourne, and he was
at an intersection and a car crashed into him. Um,
(02:50):
and I think this was the days before seatbelts or
anything like that were mandatory. So it was quite a
bad accident and he was quite badly injured, his back
and his neck. And as a consequence of that, his
doctor told him that he could no longer work as
a train driver because of the movement of the trains,
the shunting, um, it just wasn't suitable for him anymore.
(03:13):
And those were the days, I suppose, before TAC or
anything like that. Any kind of insurance scheme. Um, there
was no work cover or anything, so he just had
to find another job. So he went out initially and
he became a door to door salesman. He was selling, um, cookware.
I think it was called Rena Ware. It's a stainless
steel cookware door to door. And he did that for
(03:36):
a couple of years. He was actually he was pretty
good at it. He loved that job, too. He used
to have a, um, a kind of velvet cloth he
would like, roll out on their table and put the
cookware there. Um, so he was going door to door,
but at the same time, he was still getting medical
treatment for his back and his neck. And he was
seeing a doctor. This guy, Doctor Lawrence. And one day
(03:59):
he was in his his, um, rooms, uh, in a consultation.
And the doctor happened to be on the phone, and
he was talking to someone about this pub that he
owned in the country that he was trying to lease out.
People had shot through, and dad was listening to the
conversation and eventually got off the phone and he dad
(04:20):
asked him, you know, what's this pub you've got? And
Doctor Lawrence said, oh, I've got this pub installed in
western Victoria. Um, you know, these people shot through about
six months ago. It's quite rundown. But, you know, Tom,
have you ever thought about running a pub and dad,
you know, at that point he'd never set foot in
(04:41):
a pub, you know, like coming from Italy, there wasn't
really a drinking culture. No, no, not at all. So
I don't know what came over him, but he, he said, oh,
you know, I'd be interested to have a look. So
the next day they got in the car, in Doctor
Lawrence's car, drove down to stall, and, uh, dad had
a look round the pub. It was just, you know,
(05:01):
rat infested, really rundown. And he decided to buy it.
He bought it on the spot.
S2 (05:08):
We're going to talk about that, but I'm going to
take you back to the legal part. I'm an ex-lawyer,
and I know you've worked in the legal area. Your
dad made history by being almost. Wasn't he the first
person to represent himself and win in the High Court
in a case that ended up being called Brandy and Mingo, 1976?
S3 (05:27):
Yes, yes. So we believe that is the case. I
have contacted the High Court about it previously. They weren't
able to to confirm it, but, um, it seems fairly
likely if he wasn't the first, that he was one
of the first. And essentially what happened, he, um, he
sued the the driver and the driver's insurer over the accident.
(05:51):
He wanted his medical expenses covered, plus the loss of
earnings that he'd suffered as a result of having to
leave his job on the railways, which was quite a
well-paying job at the time. And he went, um, engaged lawyers.
His lawyer was actually Frank Costigan, who, um, wow.
S2 (06:08):
The Costigan Commission. Costigan royal commission. Yeah.
S3 (06:11):
Yeah. Who? My mum sort of, you know, recollects as
just being the loveliest man. He was just a lovely
man to deal with. And they went to the Supreme
Court as jury trial and they were unsuccessful. And basically
what the from what I understand the case hinged on
was about whether a particular, um, uh, witness was called
(06:35):
a medical witness and whether the jury could draw an
adverse inference about my dad's case on the basis that
he didn't call that or his lawyers didn't call that expert.
And essentially it got appealed and went to the High Court.
So when it went to the High Court, my my
dad and my mum were back in Italy at the time.
(06:58):
They'd gone back to, to work a piece of land
over there. And dad got the, the call um, from the,
the registrar. I think of the High Court saying that
the the case has been listed. Meanwhile, for reasons unknown,
dad had had sacked his lawyer and sacked Frank Costigan.
And so he was trying to arrange to get another lawyer.
(07:20):
But it was a very short space of time. I
think it was only a week before, um, it was
due to go to court. So dad got on a
plane and came, came back to Melbourne and fronted up
in the courtroom himself.
S2 (07:35):
And this is I mean, I did a little bit
of research to try and track it down. So this
was in 1975. It was before you were born. And
it just sounds like the castle, the story of the
the castle. Your dad represents himself in the High Court
against an insurance company and their lawyers. And he wins.
S3 (07:51):
It's it's it's quite amazing to me. I mean, it's
saying that it's not that amazing because I know the
sort of guy that dad was, and he just had
this unwavering self-belief. And if he felt like he was
on the the right side of something and then there'd
been an injustice done, he, he wanted to, you know,
have his, his victory.
S2 (08:11):
And I reckon there's a story in there for you, Mark.
I reckon there's another book in there for you in
that story. It's pretty amazing.
S3 (08:19):
Yeah. Perhaps. Perhaps one day. You know, I've. I've threatened
my family with writing a memoir before it. Yeah, it might,
it might happen. But, you know, I think he did
have the benefit of having, um, a legally prepared documents
with him at the time. So he wasn't flying completely
solo either. But to have the front to do that,
(08:40):
I just I found it quite amazing. And I think afterwards, um, the, uh,
one of the courtroom staff told him, you know, you've
made history here today. Um, Mike Willesee wanted to interview him,
I think on this day tonight. Um, but but dad was,
you know, he was just happy to have his win. Um,
(09:00):
and he certainly dined out on that story for many,
many years afterwards.
S2 (09:04):
Now, Mark, that was before you were born. You were
born in 1978, and you were the fourth boy, the
fourth son. And I wanted you to talk a little
bit about what it was like for you growing up
in Victorian rural Victoria, where the pub was in the 1980s,
as the fourth son of Italian migrants?
S3 (09:22):
Look, it wasn't there was really great aspects to growing
up in the country, like it was that kind of
bucolic cliche in some ways, you know, where your parents
kind of let you out the front door in the morning,
and as long as you're back by night, um, everything's okay.
You know, we went rabbiting, uh, fishing, gabbing, all that
(09:42):
kind of stuff. So that was all great. I guess
the flip side of it was, um, being in a,
in a very a small town of about 6 or
7000 people, which was very Anglo-Saxon. Um, we were, um,
the only Italian family that I know of, uh, in
(10:02):
the town. And that that was tough. I think the,
the attitudes in, in the 80s, um, were very different
in rural, um, places in Australia than in the city,
because I know I had cousins in Melbourne who, uh,
had a very different kind of experience. They, they had
(10:22):
their tribe with them essentially. There was a lot of
other Italians and a lot of support and a lot
of culture, and that was very different in the country. Um, in,
in the schoolyard in particular, I found it pretty tough
for the first couple of years. Um.
S2 (10:38):
Kids called you names, didn't they?
S3 (10:40):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I just, I couldn't make any friends and, and,
you know, some of the kids would say to me, um,
you know, my dad told me not to be friends
with you because you're a wog.
S2 (10:51):
Yeah.
S3 (10:52):
Um, and that was it was it was tough. I,
I suppose I internalized a lot of that experience because
I think when you're a kid, you can't really contextualize, um,
the situation. You can't sort of say, oh, well, these
people have not been exposed to much. Um, they're a
(11:12):
product of their environment or anything like that. All all
you start to think is, there's something wrong with me.
There's something wrong with me.
S2 (11:19):
And do you think that that experience, that childhood experience
of being at least slightly, might be overstating, but slightly
ostracized as that fed into your interest in writing about
people that are outsiders in a lot of ways.
S3 (11:32):
I believe so. Um, I think the other aspect to
it is when you are on the outside and you
want to be accepted. You start to observe people really
closely because, you know, I was watching kids in the schoolyard,
how they spoke, what they talked about, you know, which
footy team they barracked for, all that sort of stuff.
And so that close kind of observational skill helped me.
(11:56):
I think definitely being an outsider myself, perhaps created a
greater degree of empathy for others who are on the
margins themselves. I would say, too, that in the pub, um,
you know, pubs are country pubs are great places because
you do meet people from all walks of life. You know,
you have farmers coming in, police officers, um, you know,
(12:22):
chronic alcoholics, unemployed, um, criminals, low level criminals. Um, and
it's just it's a very democratic kind of environment. And
my dad always impressed upon me when I got a
bit older and I started to work beyond the bar.
he said, you know, talk to people, don't don't make
judgments about people based on how they look or anything
(12:45):
like that. Talk to them because everyone's got a story
and they want to share it. And that's what I
found over time. You know, you listen to some of
these people who others might have looked at and thought,
you know, they were a bit rough around the edges or, and,
you know, the way it is in country towns, like if,
if you do kind of 1 or 2 things, quote
unquote wrong, everyone knows about it. And so you kind
(13:07):
of marked for life. But what I found was that
those people often had the most interesting stories. So I
think that that really, um, sparked something inside me, which,
you know, when I went to choose a career, but
also when I sat down to write, um, affected the
kind of subject matter that I was drawn to.
S2 (13:27):
So your parents were really successful. They made a real
go of this pub. They'd been doing it since the
the 1960s, and then in the 1980s, they started to
be harassed by the local police, and eventually they were
actually raided by the vice squad. What happened? Tell us
about that.
S3 (13:44):
Yeah. Look, in the 80s, we're hearing a lot of
rumors in in town coming back that we were, um,
dealing drugs for the pub, like dealing drugs. My brothers
were dealing drugs from the toilets and and all this
sort of stuff, which, you know, my parents didn't pay
much heed to because you hear a lot of gossip
in small towns. But then the police, um, started to
(14:07):
take a very keen interest in the pub for, for
reasons unknown. They would show up, um, regularly, you know,
park their divvy van across the front door, come in,
you know, be checking, um, patrons IDs, checking our security logbooks.
It was just relentless. And, you know, checking. We've got
(14:28):
fire exits. Clear. Um, and I think you know that
looking back on it, I could see it was just
a an effort to put pressure on on my parents
in that environment. But it really culminated, uh, in I
think it was the mid 80s, around 1985 when, um,
one night there was a whole lot of, um, strangers
(14:51):
in the bar, essentially people from out of town, which
was always really conspicuous in a in a country pub
as a group of guys. And they were quite rowdy.
They were drinking quite heavily. And as the night progressed,
I became more and more rowdy and started, um, provoking
some of the customers, um, to violence. And in the
(15:11):
end they pulled out their, their badges and said they
were from the police.
S2 (15:16):
So they were undercover cops?
S3 (15:17):
Yeah, they were undercover. And, uh, they started to arrest patrons, um, indiscriminately.
They grabbed, you know, people off their bar stools by
their hair, pulled them on the ground.
S2 (15:29):
Um, were you there?
S3 (15:30):
Assaulted?
S2 (15:31):
Did you see this happening, Mark?
S3 (15:32):
I was upstairs at the time, so I heard the
sound of it, um, which was terrifying. I would say, um,
you know, you could hear yelling.
S2 (15:41):
You were about eight. Yeah.
S3 (15:43):
Yeah, yeah. So. And they they took a lot of
the patrons off to the police station, put them in
the cells, and the police showed up the next morning
at the front door of the pub, and my mum
looked out the window at the time, saw them and
said to my dad, don't go down there because she
(16:04):
was worried that he was going to get assaulted and
taken off to to a jail cell as well. So
they then, um, they charged my, my father with a
whole slew of charges for, um, breaches of his licence,
serving patrons intoxicated various other things. But when it finally
(16:25):
when it went to court, um, their, their lawyer, I
think they, they realised that they couldn't make a lot
of it stick. And so they did a plea deal.
My dad's lawyer did a plea deal, essentially, that he
would plead guilty to to one charge. And tell us what?
S2 (16:44):
Tell us what it was.
S3 (16:45):
That charge was, um, for having illegal gambling on the premises,
which was for having a footy tipping competition on the wall, which, um,
every single, you know, pub in town, if not Victoria
had at that time. And, and in fact, you know,
my dad's lawyer said to the magistrate, I believe the,
(17:08):
the stall magistrate's court has a tipping competition and the
magistrates court the magistrate said, ah, yes it does.
S4 (17:15):
So.
S3 (17:16):
Um, you know, it was just I think they were
were dead keen to to drive my, my dad out
of business for reasons unknown. I don't know how much
race came into it.
S2 (17:28):
I was going to ask you about that because I've.
heard you mention this before and you've said it was
the time of Robert Trimbole. Just talk a little bit
about him. For listeners who aren't familiar with him and
what that 1980s, that context was that made them really
it certainly seemed like it was racism and targeted because
your family were Italian.
S3 (17:45):
Yeah, I think there was like Robert Trimbole, who was
involved in the drug trade, I think, in Griffith. Um, and,
you know, it was a very prominent, um, mafia figure.
And I think there was a perception that Italians, um,
particularly Italians that were doing well, might have some sort
of link to organised crime. Um, I think those kinds
(18:08):
of beliefs can take hold, particularly in a small town
where people aren't exposed to, um, a lot of other
cultures and a lot of other Italians who might be
doing well, who are law abiding people and things like that.
So I think the atmosphere was was such that it
was easy for that kind of prejudice to to form. Um,
(18:32):
it's just to me, it's kind of it's it's crazy because, like, my,
my dad is just the most, you know, was the
most clean, living person you could imagine. Um, my brothers too,
you know, they they all ended up working in, in
law enforcement, for that matter.
S4 (18:51):
So for the police.
S2 (18:52):
All three of them ended up working for the police?
S3 (18:54):
Yes. Yeah. That's right. My, my my eldest brother was, um,
he's a forensic scientist, and he worked for Victoria Police
and for the AFP as well. Um, my my second
oldest brother. He he's a lawyer. Um, he's a sergeant
with Victoria Police and their civil litigation branch. And my
next eldest brother, he works in the criminal records branch
(19:16):
of Victoria Police. So, you know, we were not a, um,
a criminal enterprise in our family. We were very far
removed from it. So it's. Yeah, it's kind of baffling
how how that happened, but it was just unbelievably stressful
for my for my family, for my parents.
S4 (19:38):
And I kept.
S2 (19:38):
Harassing you, didn't they? Even after that raid by the
vice squad, the harassment kept going for some time.
S3 (19:44):
Yes. Yeah. And it really led my my parents to
sell the lease on the pub a few times just
to get out and have a break, you know, from that, um,
and that that was a bitter pill for my dad
because my dad, he loved running that pub, you know,
that was his his life. He loved the hotel. Um,
he loved being able to, um, provide a good service
(20:07):
to the local community. You know, my mum was a
cook in the pub. We'd get bands in from out
of town and, um. Yeah, it was a huge part
of his life, so I think that it really affected him, uh,
longer term. And his, his sense of self in a
lot of ways.
S2 (20:32):
So I'm interested in the impact on you. You then
started when you finished school. You started a degree in law,
but you stopped that. You ended up working for ten
years in the criminal justice system. So I'd like you
to talk a little bit about that. I know one
of the jobs you had was as a political advisor
to the corrections minister, but wanted you to tell us
a little bit about that work and how you enjoyed
(20:54):
it up until a point that you made a change
in your life, which we'll come to?
S3 (20:59):
Yes. Um, I as you say, I studied law initially,
and then I dropped out of that and kind of
rolled through a few different attempts at degrees, um, and
ranging from psychology. I did a massage course at one point.
I did all sorts of odd things, but predominantly I
was doing bar work. And I think I just got
(21:19):
to a point where, um, I figured I've accumulated this
enormous HECS debt, and I need to actually try to
get a degree and get a decent job. So I
studied criminal justice, um, at RMIT, which I.
S4 (21:34):
Now that's.
S2 (21:34):
The Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.
S3 (21:36):
That's right, that's right. And I loved that course. Um,
I suppose because of what my brothers, um, were doing
for a living, I'd been, you know, immersed in these
kind of crime stories and these really like, as you know,
like the law is just fascinating and it's just full
of drama and kind of, you know, good versus evil, um,
(21:58):
quote unquote. But I loved those stories and, and it
really interested me. So I went into this course and,
and it was great. We really learned a lot about the,
the kind of, uh, social determinants of crime. Um, you know,
why it is we label people deviance, um, a lot
of philosophy behind it. And I really, I suppose I,
(22:21):
I didn't know what would come of it. I just
enjoyed the subject matter, really applied myself for the first
time in years, and I ended up getting a placement
at the Department of Justice, where I had a variety
of roles over the years in policy, multicultural policy, disability policy.
(22:42):
I worked in emergency services, um, gambling, licensing, all sorts
of stuff. And I think I kind of went into it, um,
a little bit as a crusader, like I wanted to
make a difference. And I think that was partly born.
I wasn't conscious of it at the time, but it
was born of that experience in the pub as well,
(23:04):
and seeing, um, what, uh, you know, power when exercised unjustly,
the terrible impact it can have on people. And so I,
I wanted to do something positive. And that led me
ultimately to to work, um, as an advisor to the
corrections minister. So I was his corrections advisor, um, emergency services,
(23:29):
counter-terrorism as well. So I was busy. Um, but I
loved that job. I it was incredibly intense. It was
like a, you know, eight day a week job in
a way. Um, but the one aspect that interested me
most about that work was the corrections side of things.
S2 (23:51):
Mark, you said in an interview once before that you
learned so much about the prison system and then you
you said this. You learnt that the corrections department is
just a warehouse for the poor, the mentally ill and
those with substance abuse. Now, your latest book, Eden, which
we'll come to talk about briefly at the end, uh,
is about somebody who spent time in prison. Could you
(24:13):
talk about that, about that, at that really disillusioning Impact
of your work, of you coming to that view that
it's just a warehouse for the poor, the mentally ill
and those with addiction issues.
S3 (24:25):
Yeah. Look, you essentially have the same cohort cycling through
the prison system again and again and again. I mean,
the recidivism rate is pretty stubbornly stuck on about 40%.
I think Australia wide higher in the Northern Territory, which
(24:46):
means that for every two out of five prisoners after
exiting prison, will be back in jail within two years.
And I was seeing this happen. You know, I saw
the inside of every prison in Victoria. And what I
what I learned, I suppose, was, was dispiriting to see that. Um,
(25:09):
also just the, the kind of, um, I guess the
impotence in a way, of some of the initiatives in
addressing those problems because they are society wide issues. They're
not something you can just fix in a prison or
in contact with the justice system. They're broader social justice issues.
S2 (25:29):
Um, how do you keep people going into that prison
system in the first place?
S3 (25:34):
Exactly, exactly. Because once you have that contact, chances are
you have repeated contact. So that that was really, I guess,
tough to witness. But also, I guess the, the, the
reality of political life is that you want to be
seen to be tough on crime. So we were kind of,
you know, cooking up the most draconian measures that we could, um,
(25:58):
in prisons and outside of the prison environment to in
community corrections.
S2 (26:03):
And that a lot of that's pressure from the media.
I've heard you talk about, you know, that whole mantra
of tough on crime.
S3 (26:10):
That's right.
S2 (26:10):
So I want to take you to the next step.
And I want to talk about two things that are
connected class and luck. Australians like to think that we
are a classless society, that we are a meritocracy, the
land of the fair. Go. What do you think about that?
Is that right?
S3 (26:27):
I think, you know, if you looked at my my
father's story, you might say that that that it is right.
You could say, you know, that he sort of pulled
himself up by his bootstraps. He was this migrant who
came to Australia and and made good from incredibly humble background. Um,
but I think that those were very different circumstances at
(26:50):
that time. I think Australia was a very different place.
I think, um, housing affordability was very different. The ability to, um,
I suppose, rise above the situation that you were born
into was greater at that point in time. I think
that nowadays it's incredibly tough for people to To overcome
(27:13):
the circumstances that they're they're born into, particularly if they're
born into difficult circumstances. I don't believe that we are
a meritocracy. I suppose in that kind of jingoistic way
that we like to believe. Um, I don't think we
are really the land of a fair go. I think
(27:34):
that a lot of people struggle throughout their lives, and
it basically sold this, this message that, you know, if
you if you don't make it to a large extent,
it's your fault.
S2 (27:46):
Well, that that idea of if you have a go,
you'll get a go.
S3 (27:48):
Yeah, yeah. And I just don't think that that is true.
I think we're a product of our environment. I think
there are just so many things beyond our control that
affect our chances in life. We we do. Everyone is
doing their best. You know, no one is seeking to
(28:09):
fail in life. Everyone is trying to live a good life.
And I think increasingly we are becoming, you know, a
very unequal society where we're more unequal in Australia than
most countries in the OECD. Now, um, I think that
the top 1% control more wealth than the bottom 60% combined.
(28:34):
So these are very real issues. Um, and they're big issues.
And I and I guess that's what I'm, I'm driving
at in, in terms of like from the justice side
of things, that it's not necessarily something that can be
fixed by a rehabilitation program inside a prison.
S2 (28:50):
So let's talk about the sort of the related concept
of luck. You've written pieces about luck, and it's very
much it's unacknowledged role in our lives. I'm going to
ask you, you had one piece of good luck and
one piece of bad luck within the space of a
few years that were life changing for you. Let's talk
about the good luck first of all. In 2010, at
the age of 32. You're getting a little bit disillusioned
(29:11):
with this work for reasons you've talked about. You're interested
in writing when you were younger. You go and see
a careers counsellor, and you start to think you might
quite like to do some writing again. You need some
money to do that because you need to work, move
to part time work. So what do you do?
S3 (29:26):
I owe a debt to one of my brothers here
because he. I was talking to him about my my
dilemma essentially, that I needed some some cash. I, I
had a mortgage at that stage. So the idea of
making a leap to being a writer, um, was a
big one. And I had a fair understanding that that
writing was not the most lucrative business to be involved in. He, uh,
(29:51):
he sent me an entry form for, um, Millionaire Hot Seat,
the Eddie McGuire show, and I thought, what are you doing?
I'm not interested in doing this. He's like, no, no, no, no,
you're always good at, um, trivia. Why don't you give
it a shot? You get some cash, and, uh, it
could really change things for you. You could do, you know,
(30:14):
pursue your writing, do a writing course, whatever it is.
And so I, I did, I entered. And long story short,
I ended up on the show. Uh, I remember it
was when the channel nine studios were down in Richmond, and, uh,
I was on the last show they were filming for
the day. I was incredibly nervous going on, like, I
(30:36):
hadn't told anyone that I was going on the show.
I took a sickie from work that day, and I
was convinced, really, that I'd. I'd humiliate myself on national TV,
you know, that I'd be that guy who bombs out
on the very, very first question. Something incredibly easy.
S2 (30:51):
But what happened?
S3 (30:52):
I ended up in the hot seat for the for
the very last question, uh, just by by some fluke.
And it was a question about, uh, comic books, comic
book superhero, the Green Lantern, And I'd read a lot
of comic books when I was a kid, but I'd
never read the The Green Lantern. And so I was
multiple choice about where does he derive his, um, his
(31:15):
superpower from? And there was these, like, power belt. He's, um,
power shoes, I think power cape or something. And his
power ring. And I did not know the answer. I
did not know. And I was sitting there going, oh, God.
And so in the end, I just plucked, plucked one out,
which was, um, power ring. And I. Yeah, I was
(31:37):
lucky enough to get it right.
S2 (31:39):
So you won $50,000, and that enabled you to move
to part time work and to start a course in
writing at RMIT a couple of years after that, in 2012,
you're a victim of a very a piece of very
bad luck, which becomes equally life changing. What happened then?
S3 (31:57):
Yeah. So I was part time at work and was
on my, my, my day off. Um, I was one
of those, uh, people who, uh, liked to ride round
on an expensive Italian racer in Lycra. And I was riding, um,
up to there's a spot in Melbourne in Kew called
(32:18):
the Yarra Boulevard, which is a beautiful spot to ride.
And I was heading up there on my lunch break,
and I was hurtling down Brunswick Street in North Fitzroy, which,
if listeners are familiar with it, it's a very busy area.
There's trams, a lot of traffic, a lot of pedestrians
and a car turned right in front of me, um,
(32:42):
at an intersection. Didn't, didn't look for me. And I
slammed on the brakes. I went flying over my handlebars. Um,
I separated my collarbone from my shoulder, broke some ribs. Uh,
I had to have two, two operations on on my shoulder.
I had a metal plate inserted and it was an
(33:06):
incredibly painful experience, but incredibly painful recovery as well. I
was out of action for about six months. The driver,
I should say he fled the scene as well. Um,
so that was a really, I guess, you know, it
was an unlucky event, but in some ways it was
(33:26):
a bit of good fortune because it brought things into
to really stark relief for me, because I realized, I guess, that,
you know, for a second or two. Either way, it
could have been a far more serious accident, could have
been a fatal incident, or could have been run over
and good night. And so I got to thinking, you know,
what's really important to me in my life and of course,
(33:50):
family and those close to me, but also my writing.
I just realized that I've really got to focus on
this and give it a proper go. Um, and so
that's what led me to to leave my, my permanent
ongoing job, um, uh, to, to kind of jump into
the very precarious career of being a writer.
S2 (34:12):
So I want to ask you about that. You've had
five books that have been very your fifth one's about
to come out, and they've been very successful in Australia.
In terms of Australian writers, you're one of our most successful.
You've won great international prizes. Your books sell well. They
get very well reviewed. There's a lot of talk about
how difficult it is for writers to make a living
here in Australia. How does it work for you? That's
(34:34):
your full time job now writing. Are you able to
support yourself fully on on what you earn from your writing?
S3 (34:40):
Not solely from my writing, no, I, I rely on
kind of writing adjacent activities, I suppose, like, uh, I'm a,
I do mentorships through the Australian Society of Authors. I
do manuscript assessments as well. Uh, Library appearances every now
and again school appearances. But I'm also very reliant on
(35:05):
getting government grants as well. Um, as you know, you know,
writing a novel takes enormous amount of time, and you
have to be deep inside the work for a very,
very long period. And that does not lend itself well
to sort of, um, kind of having a portfolio career,
(35:26):
of having a couple of other jobs. I know some
writers do do that by necessity. Um, for me, I
can't for me to produce my work. I need to
be really focused on it for a long period. So
I'm dependent on on getting government grants in saying that
even with the grants, even with those other, um, activities
(35:50):
related to writing, with royalties coming in every now and again,
the occasional advance from my publisher. It's a struggle. It's
a struggle, and it's a very precarious existence. You can't
plan for the future. It's very tough in that respect. Um,
(36:10):
you know, forget about superannuation or anything like my super.
You know, I haven't put any. Basically, I haven't put
a cent into it since I worked at the Department
of Justice. So it is a financially precarious career.
S2 (36:24):
But worth.
S3 (36:24):
It. Oh, look, there's nothing else I would want to
be doing. Basically, I love it. I absolutely love it. I,
I love the like it's same as when I was
like a kid and when I'd write, and I guess I,
you know, everything else would disappear. And in, in kind
of an, um, modern parlance, I suppose I was in flow,
(36:48):
as people would say, but I, but I really was
like the whole world would disappear. I'd just be inside
that imaginary world creating these characters. And that is the
exact same experience for me now when I'm writing a book. Like, I,
I just love being inside of it. Even though, you know,
my characters are often in really difficult circumstances. I want
(37:08):
to make it real. I want to connect with readers.
I want them to have a sense of what it's
like for those characters. But, you know, the the biggest
kind of, um, uh, validation for me or the most
satisfying aspect of being an author isn't, you know, awards
it isn't critical reception or or any of that. It's
(37:32):
really two things. It's the moment when I feel like
I've finally finished the book and it's working, and that's
before it's even accepted by my publisher. But I just
know it's essentially done. The other aspect is when you
hear from readers, you know, when you have readers come
up to you at.
S2 (37:52):
Festivals and events at libraries and things. Yeah.
S3 (37:55):
Oh it's magic. It's absolutely magic because you've created this
imaginary world, you know, with these, you know, words on
a page and, and they've gone away and created something
bigger out of it in their own mind, and they'll
have their own interpretation of it. Um, you know, my
books are not they don't tend to have very neat
endings in a way. Mhm. And so they kind of
(38:19):
imagine what the characters are doing now and, and I
it's just the best thing. It's just the best thing.
And that's what like keeps me coming back to the page.
S2 (38:28):
Mark thank you so much. Your next book as I've
said Eden, your fifth novel also crime fiction. And just
as a little teaser for readers, if you loved, um,
Mark's first book, Wimmera, there's a secret connection between the
first and this latest one. I won't say more, but
it's a really fabulous read and I wish you all
the very best with it.
S3 (38:47):
Oh, thanks so much, Nicole. It's been a pleasure.
S2 (38:49):
Thanks for speaking to us.
S5 (38:51):
Thank you.
S1 (38:54):
That was Mark Brandi with freelance writer Nicole Abadie on
the latest Good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode,
please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get
your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations
coming soon. We talk with Australian portrait painter Vincent Fantauzzo
about growing up on the wrong side of the tracks
(39:15):
with crippling dyslexia, but prevailing through art. Good Weekend Talks
is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and
The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(39:35):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Tami
Mills is our executive producer, Tom McKendrick is head of
audio and Greg Callaghan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:31):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Mark Brandi, the author of five crime novels starting with Wimmera,
which was published in 2017 and won the prestigious British
Crime Writers Association Debut Dagger award. Writes about outsiders, heroin addicts,
former prisoners and child victims of poverty and violence. Brandi
(00:54):
talks to us today to chat about his new book, Eden,
being released on June 25th. But we also take a
look at his family background, including the racist small town
harassment of his father, plus his career in Corrective Services,
both of which shed light on why he's drawn to
people on the margins. And hosting this conversation about everything
from growing up inside a country pub to working in
(01:17):
the criminal justice system, and how good and bad luck
change Brandy's life is freelance writer Nicole Abadie.
S2 (01:25):
Welcome, Mark.
S3 (01:26):
Thanks, Nicole.
S2 (01:27):
You have written five crime novels, starting with the multi-award
winning Wimmera, published in 2017. Your fifth? Eden will be
out in July. What I'm interested in is the subject matter.
All of them are about people who are outsiders, people
at the margins. They're heroin addicts. They're former prisoners. They're
child victims of poverty and sexual assault. And I want
(01:49):
to just explore with you what it is in your
background that's led you to write about that sort of
subject matter. It seems to me that there's two things
I'm going to ask you about them in order. The
first is your childhood, your background, and the, um, harassment
that your parents suffered in their pub in the 80s.
And the second is your work that you did in
Corrective Services. So let's start with the first. Your background.
(02:11):
Your parents, Tommaso and Tomasina, arrived in Victoria from Italy
in the 1960s. Your dad was originally a train driver,
but in 1964, he had an accident. What happened and
how did he become a part of Australia's legal history?
S3 (02:27):
Dad? Yeah. As you say, he was a train driver
on the Victorian Railways. He drove goods trains around Victoria,
which he really loved. That job, um, seeing the state.
And one day he was on his way to work, um,
he was on Victoria Parade in Melbourne, and he was
at an intersection and a car crashed into him. Um,
(02:50):
and I think this was the days before seatbelts or
anything like that were mandatory. So it was quite a
bad accident and he was quite badly injured, his back
and his neck. And as a consequence of that, his
doctor told him that he could no longer work as
a train driver because of the movement of the trains,
the shunting, um, it just wasn't suitable for him anymore.
(03:13):
And those were the days, I suppose, before TAC or
anything like that. Any kind of insurance scheme. Um, there
was no work cover or anything, so he just had
to find another job. So he went out initially and
he became a door to door salesman. He was selling, um, cookware.
I think it was called Rena Ware. It's a stainless
steel cookware door to door. And he did that for
(03:36):
a couple of years. He was actually he was pretty
good at it. He loved that job, too. He used
to have a, um, a kind of velvet cloth he
would like, roll out on their table and put the
cookware there. Um, so he was going door to door,
but at the same time, he was still getting medical
treatment for his back and his neck. And he was
seeing a doctor. This guy, Doctor Lawrence. And one day
(03:59):
he was in his his, um, rooms, uh, in a consultation.
And the doctor happened to be on the phone, and
he was talking to someone about this pub that he
owned in the country that he was trying to lease out.
People had shot through, and dad was listening to the
conversation and eventually got off the phone and he dad
(04:20):
asked him, you know, what's this pub you've got? And
Doctor Lawrence said, oh, I've got this pub installed in
western Victoria. Um, you know, these people shot through about
six months ago. It's quite rundown. But, you know, Tom,
have you ever thought about running a pub and dad,
you know, at that point he'd never set foot in
(04:41):
a pub, you know, like coming from Italy, there wasn't
really a drinking culture. No, no, not at all. So
I don't know what came over him, but he, he said, oh,
you know, I'd be interested to have a look. So
the next day they got in the car, in Doctor
Lawrence's car, drove down to stall, and, uh, dad had
a look round the pub. It was just, you know,
(05:01):
rat infested, really rundown. And he decided to buy it.
He bought it on the spot.
S2 (05:08):
We're going to talk about that, but I'm going to
take you back to the legal part. I'm an ex-lawyer,
and I know you've worked in the legal area. Your
dad made history by being almost. Wasn't he the first
person to represent himself and win in the High Court
in a case that ended up being called Brandy and Mingo, 1976?
S3 (05:27):
Yes, yes. So we believe that is the case. I
have contacted the High Court about it previously. They weren't
able to to confirm it, but, um, it seems fairly
likely if he wasn't the first, that he was one
of the first. And essentially what happened, he, um, he
sued the the driver and the driver's insurer over the accident.
(05:51):
He wanted his medical expenses covered, plus the loss of
earnings that he'd suffered as a result of having to
leave his job on the railways, which was quite a
well-paying job at the time. And he went, um, engaged lawyers.
His lawyer was actually Frank Costigan, who, um, wow.
S2 (06:08):
The Costigan Commission. Costigan royal commission. Yeah.
S3 (06:11):
Yeah. Who? My mum sort of, you know, recollects as
just being the loveliest man. He was just a lovely
man to deal with. And they went to the Supreme
Court as jury trial and they were unsuccessful. And basically
what the from what I understand the case hinged on
was about whether a particular, um, uh, witness was called
(06:35):
a medical witness and whether the jury could draw an
adverse inference about my dad's case on the basis that
he didn't call that or his lawyers didn't call that expert.
And essentially it got appealed and went to the High Court.
So when it went to the High Court, my my
dad and my mum were back in Italy at the time.
(06:58):
They'd gone back to, to work a piece of land
over there. And dad got the, the call um, from the,
the registrar. I think of the High Court saying that
the the case has been listed. Meanwhile, for reasons unknown,
dad had had sacked his lawyer and sacked Frank Costigan.
And so he was trying to arrange to get another lawyer.
(07:20):
But it was a very short space of time. I
think it was only a week before, um, it was
due to go to court. So dad got on a
plane and came, came back to Melbourne and fronted up
in the courtroom himself.
S2 (07:35):
And this is I mean, I did a little bit
of research to try and track it down. So this
was in 1975. It was before you were born. And
it just sounds like the castle, the story of the
the castle. Your dad represents himself in the High Court
against an insurance company and their lawyers. And he wins.
S3 (07:51):
It's it's it's quite amazing to me. I mean, it's
saying that it's not that amazing because I know the
sort of guy that dad was, and he just had
this unwavering self-belief. And if he felt like he was
on the the right side of something and then there'd
been an injustice done, he, he wanted to, you know,
have his, his victory.
S2 (08:11):
And I reckon there's a story in there for you, Mark.
I reckon there's another book in there for you in
that story. It's pretty amazing.
S3 (08:19):
Yeah. Perhaps. Perhaps one day. You know, I've. I've threatened
my family with writing a memoir before it. Yeah, it might,
it might happen. But, you know, I think he did
have the benefit of having, um, a legally prepared documents
with him at the time. So he wasn't flying completely
solo either. But to have the front to do that,
(08:40):
I just I found it quite amazing. And I think afterwards, um, the, uh,
one of the courtroom staff told him, you know, you've
made history here today. Um, Mike Willesee wanted to interview him,
I think on this day tonight. Um, but but dad was,
you know, he was just happy to have his win. Um,
(09:00):
and he certainly dined out on that story for many,
many years afterwards.
S2 (09:04):
Now, Mark, that was before you were born. You were
born in 1978, and you were the fourth boy, the
fourth son. And I wanted you to talk a little
bit about what it was like for you growing up
in Victorian rural Victoria, where the pub was in the 1980s,
as the fourth son of Italian migrants?
S3 (09:22):
Look, it wasn't there was really great aspects to growing
up in the country, like it was that kind of
bucolic cliche in some ways, you know, where your parents
kind of let you out the front door in the morning,
and as long as you're back by night, um, everything's okay.
You know, we went rabbiting, uh, fishing, gabbing, all that
(09:42):
kind of stuff. So that was all great. I guess
the flip side of it was, um, being in a,
in a very a small town of about 6 or
7000 people, which was very Anglo-Saxon. Um, we were, um,
the only Italian family that I know of, uh, in
(10:02):
the town. And that that was tough. I think the,
the attitudes in, in the 80s, um, were very different
in rural, um, places in Australia than in the city,
because I know I had cousins in Melbourne who, uh,
had a very different kind of experience. They, they had
(10:22):
their tribe with them essentially. There was a lot of
other Italians and a lot of support and a lot
of culture, and that was very different in the country. Um, in,
in the schoolyard in particular, I found it pretty tough
for the first couple of years. Um.
S2 (10:38):
Kids called you names, didn't they?
S3 (10:40):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I just, I couldn't make any friends and, and,
you know, some of the kids would say to me, um,
you know, my dad told me not to be friends
with you because you're a wog.
S2 (10:51):
Yeah.
S3 (10:52):
Um, and that was it was it was tough. I,
I suppose I internalized a lot of that experience because
I think when you're a kid, you can't really contextualize, um,
the situation. You can't sort of say, oh, well, these
people have not been exposed to much. Um, they're a
(11:12):
product of their environment or anything like that. All all
you start to think is, there's something wrong with me.
There's something wrong with me.
S2 (11:19):
And do you think that that experience, that childhood experience
of being at least slightly, might be overstating, but slightly
ostracized as that fed into your interest in writing about
people that are outsiders in a lot of ways.
S3 (11:32):
I believe so. Um, I think the other aspect to
it is when you are on the outside and you
want to be accepted. You start to observe people really
closely because, you know, I was watching kids in the schoolyard,
how they spoke, what they talked about, you know, which
footy team they barracked for, all that sort of stuff.
And so that close kind of observational skill helped me.
(11:56):
I think definitely being an outsider myself, perhaps created a
greater degree of empathy for others who are on the
margins themselves. I would say, too, that in the pub, um,
you know, pubs are country pubs are great places because
you do meet people from all walks of life. You know,
you have farmers coming in, police officers, um, you know,
(12:22):
chronic alcoholics, unemployed, um, criminals, low level criminals. Um, and
it's just it's a very democratic kind of environment. And
my dad always impressed upon me when I got a
bit older and I started to work beyond the bar.
he said, you know, talk to people, don't don't make
judgments about people based on how they look or anything
(12:45):
like that. Talk to them because everyone's got a story
and they want to share it. And that's what I
found over time. You know, you listen to some of
these people who others might have looked at and thought,
you know, they were a bit rough around the edges or, and,
you know, the way it is in country towns, like if,
if you do kind of 1 or 2 things, quote
unquote wrong, everyone knows about it. And so you kind
(13:07):
of marked for life. But what I found was that
those people often had the most interesting stories. So I
think that that really, um, sparked something inside me, which,
you know, when I went to choose a career, but
also when I sat down to write, um, affected the
kind of subject matter that I was drawn to.
S2 (13:27):
So your parents were really successful. They made a real
go of this pub. They'd been doing it since the
the 1960s, and then in the 1980s, they started to
be harassed by the local police, and eventually they were
actually raided by the vice squad. What happened? Tell us
about that.
S3 (13:44):
Yeah. Look, in the 80s, we're hearing a lot of
rumors in in town coming back that we were, um,
dealing drugs for the pub, like dealing drugs. My brothers
were dealing drugs from the toilets and and all this
sort of stuff, which, you know, my parents didn't pay
much heed to because you hear a lot of gossip
in small towns. But then the police, um, started to
(14:07):
take a very keen interest in the pub for, for
reasons unknown. They would show up, um, regularly, you know,
park their divvy van across the front door, come in,
you know, be checking, um, patrons IDs, checking our security logbooks.
It was just relentless. And, you know, checking. We've got
(14:28):
fire exits. Clear. Um, and I think you know that
looking back on it, I could see it was just
a an effort to put pressure on on my parents
in that environment. But it really culminated, uh, in I
think it was the mid 80s, around 1985 when, um,
one night there was a whole lot of, um, strangers
(14:51):
in the bar, essentially people from out of town, which
was always really conspicuous in a in a country pub
as a group of guys. And they were quite rowdy.
They were drinking quite heavily. And as the night progressed,
I became more and more rowdy and started, um, provoking
some of the customers, um, to violence. And in the
(15:11):
end they pulled out their, their badges and said they
were from the police.
S2 (15:16):
So they were undercover cops?
S3 (15:17):
Yeah, they were undercover. And, uh, they started to arrest patrons, um, indiscriminately.
They grabbed, you know, people off their bar stools by
their hair, pulled them on the ground.
S2 (15:29):
Um, were you there?
S3 (15:30):
Assaulted?
S2 (15:31):
Did you see this happening, Mark?
S3 (15:32):
I was upstairs at the time, so I heard the
sound of it, um, which was terrifying. I would say, um,
you know, you could hear yelling.
S2 (15:41):
You were about eight. Yeah.
S3 (15:43):
Yeah, yeah. So. And they they took a lot of
the patrons off to the police station, put them in
the cells, and the police showed up the next morning
at the front door of the pub, and my mum
looked out the window at the time, saw them and
said to my dad, don't go down there because she
(16:04):
was worried that he was going to get assaulted and
taken off to to a jail cell as well. So
they then, um, they charged my, my father with a
whole slew of charges for, um, breaches of his licence,
serving patrons intoxicated various other things. But when it finally
(16:25):
when it went to court, um, their, their lawyer, I
think they, they realised that they couldn't make a lot
of it stick. And so they did a plea deal.
My dad's lawyer did a plea deal, essentially, that he
would plead guilty to to one charge. And tell us what?
S2 (16:44):
Tell us what it was.
S3 (16:45):
That charge was, um, for having illegal gambling on the premises,
which was for having a footy tipping competition on the wall, which, um,
every single, you know, pub in town, if not Victoria
had at that time. And, and in fact, you know,
my dad's lawyer said to the magistrate, I believe the,
(17:08):
the stall magistrate's court has a tipping competition and the
magistrates court the magistrate said, ah, yes it does.
S4 (17:15):
So.
S3 (17:16):
Um, you know, it was just I think they were
were dead keen to to drive my, my dad out
of business for reasons unknown. I don't know how much
race came into it.
S2 (17:28):
I was going to ask you about that because I've.
heard you mention this before and you've said it was
the time of Robert Trimbole. Just talk a little bit
about him. For listeners who aren't familiar with him and
what that 1980s, that context was that made them really
it certainly seemed like it was racism and targeted because
your family were Italian.
S3 (17:45):
Yeah, I think there was like Robert Trimbole, who was
involved in the drug trade, I think, in Griffith. Um, and,
you know, it was a very prominent, um, mafia figure.
And I think there was a perception that Italians, um,
particularly Italians that were doing well, might have some sort
of link to organised crime. Um, I think those kinds
(18:08):
of beliefs can take hold, particularly in a small town
where people aren't exposed to, um, a lot of other
cultures and a lot of other Italians who might be
doing well, who are law abiding people and things like that.
So I think the atmosphere was was such that it
was easy for that kind of prejudice to to form. Um,
(18:32):
it's just to me, it's kind of it's it's crazy because, like, my,
my dad is just the most, you know, was the
most clean, living person you could imagine. Um, my brothers too,
you know, they they all ended up working in, in
law enforcement, for that matter.
S4 (18:51):
So for the police.
S2 (18:52):
All three of them ended up working for the police?
S3 (18:54):
Yes. Yeah. That's right. My, my my eldest brother was, um,
he's a forensic scientist, and he worked for Victoria Police
and for the AFP as well. Um, my my second
oldest brother. He he's a lawyer. Um, he's a sergeant
with Victoria Police and their civil litigation branch. And my
next eldest brother, he works in the criminal records branch
(19:16):
of Victoria Police. So, you know, we were not a, um,
a criminal enterprise in our family. We were very far
removed from it. So it's. Yeah, it's kind of baffling
how how that happened, but it was just unbelievably stressful
for my for my family, for my parents.
S4 (19:38):
And I kept.
S2 (19:38):
Harassing you, didn't they? Even after that raid by the
vice squad, the harassment kept going for some time.
S3 (19:44):
Yes. Yeah. And it really led my my parents to
sell the lease on the pub a few times just
to get out and have a break, you know, from that, um,
and that that was a bitter pill for my dad
because my dad, he loved running that pub, you know,
that was his his life. He loved the hotel. Um,
he loved being able to, um, provide a good service
(20:07):
to the local community. You know, my mum was a
cook in the pub. We'd get bands in from out
of town and, um. Yeah, it was a huge part
of his life, so I think that it really affected him, uh,
longer term. And his, his sense of self in a
lot of ways.
S2 (20:32):
So I'm interested in the impact on you. You then
started when you finished school. You started a degree in law,
but you stopped that. You ended up working for ten
years in the criminal justice system. So I'd like you
to talk a little bit about that. I know one
of the jobs you had was as a political advisor
to the corrections minister, but wanted you to tell us
a little bit about that work and how you enjoyed
(20:54):
it up until a point that you made a change
in your life, which we'll come to?
S3 (20:59):
Yes. Um, I as you say, I studied law initially,
and then I dropped out of that and kind of
rolled through a few different attempts at degrees, um, and
ranging from psychology. I did a massage course at one point.
I did all sorts of odd things, but predominantly I
was doing bar work. And I think I just got
(21:19):
to a point where, um, I figured I've accumulated this
enormous HECS debt, and I need to actually try to
get a degree and get a decent job. So I
studied criminal justice, um, at RMIT, which I.
S4 (21:34):
Now that's.
S2 (21:34):
The Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.
S3 (21:36):
That's right, that's right. And I loved that course. Um,
I suppose because of what my brothers, um, were doing
for a living, I'd been, you know, immersed in these
kind of crime stories and these really like, as you know,
like the law is just fascinating and it's just full
of drama and kind of, you know, good versus evil, um,
(21:58):
quote unquote. But I loved those stories and, and it
really interested me. So I went into this course and,
and it was great. We really learned a lot about the,
the kind of, uh, social determinants of crime. Um, you know,
why it is we label people deviance, um, a lot
of philosophy behind it. And I really, I suppose I,
(22:21):
I didn't know what would come of it. I just
enjoyed the subject matter, really applied myself for the first
time in years, and I ended up getting a placement
at the Department of Justice, where I had a variety
of roles over the years in policy, multicultural policy, disability policy.
(22:42):
I worked in emergency services, um, gambling, licensing, all sorts
of stuff. And I think I kind of went into it, um,
a little bit as a crusader, like I wanted to
make a difference. And I think that was partly born.
I wasn't conscious of it at the time, but it
was born of that experience in the pub as well,
(23:04):
and seeing, um, what, uh, you know, power when exercised unjustly,
the terrible impact it can have on people. And so I,
I wanted to do something positive. And that led me
ultimately to to work, um, as an advisor to the
corrections minister. So I was his corrections advisor, um, emergency services,
(23:29):
counter-terrorism as well. So I was busy. Um, but I
loved that job. I it was incredibly intense. It was
like a, you know, eight day a week job in
a way. Um, but the one aspect that interested me
most about that work was the corrections side of things.
S2 (23:51):
Mark, you said in an interview once before that you
learned so much about the prison system and then you
you said this. You learnt that the corrections department is
just a warehouse for the poor, the mentally ill and
those with substance abuse. Now, your latest book, Eden, which
we'll come to talk about briefly at the end, uh,
is about somebody who spent time in prison. Could you
(24:13):
talk about that, about that, at that really disillusioning Impact
of your work, of you coming to that view that
it's just a warehouse for the poor, the mentally ill
and those with addiction issues.
S3 (24:25):
Yeah. Look, you essentially have the same cohort cycling through
the prison system again and again and again. I mean,
the recidivism rate is pretty stubbornly stuck on about 40%.
I think Australia wide higher in the Northern Territory, which
(24:46):
means that for every two out of five prisoners after
exiting prison, will be back in jail within two years.
And I was seeing this happen. You know, I saw
the inside of every prison in Victoria. And what I
what I learned, I suppose, was, was dispiriting to see that. Um,
(25:09):
also just the, the kind of, um, I guess the
impotence in a way, of some of the initiatives in
addressing those problems because they are society wide issues. They're
not something you can just fix in a prison or
in contact with the justice system. They're broader social justice issues.
S2 (25:29):
Um, how do you keep people going into that prison
system in the first place?
S3 (25:34):
Exactly, exactly. Because once you have that contact, chances are
you have repeated contact. So that that was really, I guess,
tough to witness. But also, I guess the, the, the
reality of political life is that you want to be
seen to be tough on crime. So we were kind of,
you know, cooking up the most draconian measures that we could, um,
(25:58):
in prisons and outside of the prison environment to in
community corrections.
S2 (26:03):
And that a lot of that's pressure from the media.
I've heard you talk about, you know, that whole mantra
of tough on crime.
S3 (26:10):
That's right.
S2 (26:10):
So I want to take you to the next step.
And I want to talk about two things that are
connected class and luck. Australians like to think that we
are a classless society, that we are a meritocracy, the
land of the fair. Go. What do you think about that?
Is that right?
S3 (26:27):
I think, you know, if you looked at my my
father's story, you might say that that that it is right.
You could say, you know, that he sort of pulled
himself up by his bootstraps. He was this migrant who
came to Australia and and made good from incredibly humble background. Um,
but I think that those were very different circumstances at
(26:50):
that time. I think Australia was a very different place.
I think, um, housing affordability was very different. The ability to, um,
I suppose, rise above the situation that you were born
into was greater at that point in time. I think
that nowadays it's incredibly tough for people to To overcome
(27:13):
the circumstances that they're they're born into, particularly if they're
born into difficult circumstances. I don't believe that we are
a meritocracy. I suppose in that kind of jingoistic way
that we like to believe. Um, I don't think we
are really the land of a fair go. I think
(27:34):
that a lot of people struggle throughout their lives, and
it basically sold this, this message that, you know, if
you if you don't make it to a large extent,
it's your fault.
S2 (27:46):
Well, that that idea of if you have a go,
you'll get a go.
S3 (27:48):
Yeah, yeah. And I just don't think that that is true.
I think we're a product of our environment. I think
there are just so many things beyond our control that
affect our chances in life. We we do. Everyone is
doing their best. You know, no one is seeking to
(28:09):
fail in life. Everyone is trying to live a good life.
And I think increasingly we are becoming, you know, a
very unequal society where we're more unequal in Australia than
most countries in the OECD. Now, um, I think that
the top 1% control more wealth than the bottom 60% combined.
(28:34):
So these are very real issues. Um, and they're big issues.
And I and I guess that's what I'm, I'm driving
at in, in terms of like from the justice side
of things, that it's not necessarily something that can be
fixed by a rehabilitation program inside a prison.
S2 (28:50):
So let's talk about the sort of the related concept
of luck. You've written pieces about luck, and it's very
much it's unacknowledged role in our lives. I'm going to
ask you, you had one piece of good luck and
one piece of bad luck within the space of a
few years that were life changing for you. Let's talk
about the good luck first of all. In 2010, at
the age of 32. You're getting a little bit disillusioned
(29:11):
with this work for reasons you've talked about. You're interested
in writing when you were younger. You go and see
a careers counsellor, and you start to think you might
quite like to do some writing again. You need some
money to do that because you need to work, move
to part time work. So what do you do?
S3 (29:26):
I owe a debt to one of my brothers here
because he. I was talking to him about my my
dilemma essentially, that I needed some some cash. I, I
had a mortgage at that stage. So the idea of
making a leap to being a writer, um, was a
big one. And I had a fair understanding that that
writing was not the most lucrative business to be involved in. He, uh,
(29:51):
he sent me an entry form for, um, Millionaire Hot Seat,
the Eddie McGuire show, and I thought, what are you doing?
I'm not interested in doing this. He's like, no, no, no, no,
you're always good at, um, trivia. Why don't you give
it a shot? You get some cash, and, uh, it
could really change things for you. You could do, you know,
(30:14):
pursue your writing, do a writing course, whatever it is.
And so I, I did, I entered. And long story short,
I ended up on the show. Uh, I remember it
was when the channel nine studios were down in Richmond, and, uh,
I was on the last show they were filming for
the day. I was incredibly nervous going on, like, I
(30:36):
hadn't told anyone that I was going on the show.
I took a sickie from work that day, and I
was convinced, really, that I'd. I'd humiliate myself on national TV,
you know, that I'd be that guy who bombs out
on the very, very first question. Something incredibly easy.
S2 (30:51):
But what happened?
S3 (30:52):
I ended up in the hot seat for the for
the very last question, uh, just by by some fluke.
And it was a question about, uh, comic books, comic
book superhero, the Green Lantern, And I'd read a lot
of comic books when I was a kid, but I'd
never read the The Green Lantern. And so I was
multiple choice about where does he derive his, um, his
(31:15):
superpower from? And there was these, like, power belt. He's, um,
power shoes, I think power cape or something. And his
power ring. And I did not know the answer. I
did not know. And I was sitting there going, oh, God.
And so in the end, I just plucked, plucked one out,
which was, um, power ring. And I. Yeah, I was
(31:37):
lucky enough to get it right.
S2 (31:39):
So you won $50,000, and that enabled you to move
to part time work and to start a course in
writing at RMIT a couple of years after that, in 2012,
you're a victim of a very a piece of very
bad luck, which becomes equally life changing. What happened then?
S3 (31:57):
Yeah. So I was part time at work and was
on my, my, my day off. Um, I was one
of those, uh, people who, uh, liked to ride round
on an expensive Italian racer in Lycra. And I was riding, um,
up to there's a spot in Melbourne in Kew called
(32:18):
the Yarra Boulevard, which is a beautiful spot to ride.
And I was heading up there on my lunch break,
and I was hurtling down Brunswick Street in North Fitzroy, which,
if listeners are familiar with it, it's a very busy area.
There's trams, a lot of traffic, a lot of pedestrians
and a car turned right in front of me, um,
(32:42):
at an intersection. Didn't, didn't look for me. And I
slammed on the brakes. I went flying over my handlebars. Um,
I separated my collarbone from my shoulder, broke some ribs. Uh,
I had to have two, two operations on on my shoulder.
I had a metal plate inserted and it was an
(33:06):
incredibly painful experience, but incredibly painful recovery as well. I
was out of action for about six months. The driver,
I should say he fled the scene as well. Um,
so that was a really, I guess, you know, it
was an unlucky event, but in some ways it was
(33:26):
a bit of good fortune because it brought things into
to really stark relief for me, because I realized, I guess, that,
you know, for a second or two. Either way, it
could have been a far more serious accident, could have
been a fatal incident, or could have been run over
and good night. And so I got to thinking, you know,
what's really important to me in my life and of course,
(33:50):
family and those close to me, but also my writing.
I just realized that I've really got to focus on
this and give it a proper go. Um, and so
that's what led me to to leave my, my permanent
ongoing job, um, uh, to, to kind of jump into
the very precarious career of being a writer.
S2 (34:12):
So I want to ask you about that. You've had
five books that have been very your fifth one's about
to come out, and they've been very successful in Australia.
In terms of Australian writers, you're one of our most successful.
You've won great international prizes. Your books sell well. They
get very well reviewed. There's a lot of talk about
how difficult it is for writers to make a living
here in Australia. How does it work for you? That's
(34:34):
your full time job now writing. Are you able to
support yourself fully on on what you earn from your writing?
S3 (34:40):
Not solely from my writing, no, I, I rely on
kind of writing adjacent activities, I suppose, like, uh, I'm a,
I do mentorships through the Australian Society of Authors. I
do manuscript assessments as well. Uh, Library appearances every now
and again school appearances. But I'm also very reliant on
(35:05):
getting government grants as well. Um, as you know, you know,
writing a novel takes enormous amount of time, and you
have to be deep inside the work for a very,
very long period. And that does not lend itself well
to sort of, um, kind of having a portfolio career,
(35:26):
of having a couple of other jobs. I know some
writers do do that by necessity. Um, for me, I
can't for me to produce my work. I need to
be really focused on it for a long period. So
I'm dependent on on getting government grants in saying that
even with the grants, even with those other, um, activities
(35:50):
related to writing, with royalties coming in every now and again,
the occasional advance from my publisher. It's a struggle. It's
a struggle, and it's a very precarious existence. You can't
plan for the future. It's very tough in that respect. Um,
(36:10):
you know, forget about superannuation or anything like my super.
You know, I haven't put any. Basically, I haven't put
a cent into it since I worked at the Department
of Justice. So it is a financially precarious career.
S2 (36:24):
But worth.
S3 (36:24):
It. Oh, look, there's nothing else I would want to
be doing. Basically, I love it. I absolutely love it. I,
I love the like it's same as when I was
like a kid and when I'd write, and I guess I,
you know, everything else would disappear. And in, in kind
of an, um, modern parlance, I suppose I was in flow,
(36:48):
as people would say, but I, but I really was
like the whole world would disappear. I'd just be inside
that imaginary world creating these characters. And that is the
exact same experience for me now when I'm writing a book. Like, I,
I just love being inside of it. Even though, you know,
my characters are often in really difficult circumstances. I want
(37:08):
to make it real. I want to connect with readers.
I want them to have a sense of what it's
like for those characters. But, you know, the the biggest
kind of, um, uh, validation for me or the most
satisfying aspect of being an author isn't, you know, awards
it isn't critical reception or or any of that. It's
(37:32):
really two things. It's the moment when I feel like
I've finally finished the book and it's working, and that's
before it's even accepted by my publisher. But I just
know it's essentially done. The other aspect is when you
hear from readers, you know, when you have readers come
up to you at.
S2 (37:52):
Festivals and events at libraries and things. Yeah.
S3 (37:55):
Oh it's magic. It's absolutely magic because you've created this
imaginary world, you know, with these, you know, words on
a page and, and they've gone away and created something
bigger out of it in their own mind, and they'll
have their own interpretation of it. Um, you know, my
books are not they don't tend to have very neat
endings in a way. Mhm. And so they kind of
(38:19):
imagine what the characters are doing now and, and I
it's just the best thing. It's just the best thing.
And that's what like keeps me coming back to the page.
S2 (38:28):
Mark thank you so much. Your next book as I've
said Eden, your fifth novel also crime fiction. And just
as a little teaser for readers, if you loved, um,
Mark's first book, Wimmera, there's a secret connection between the
first and this latest one. I won't say more, but
it's a really fabulous read and I wish you all
the very best with it.
S3 (38:47):
Oh, thanks so much, Nicole. It's been a pleasure.
S2 (38:49):
Thanks for speaking to us.
S5 (38:51):
Thank you.
S1 (38:54):
That was Mark Brandi with freelance writer Nicole Abadie on
the latest Good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode,
please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get
your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations
coming soon. We talk with Australian portrait painter Vincent Fantauzzo
about growing up on the wrong side of the tracks
(39:15):
with crippling dyslexia, but prevailing through art. Good Weekend Talks
is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and
The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(39:35):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Tami
Mills is our executive producer, Tom McKendrick is head of
audio and Greg Callaghan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
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