June 5, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, we talk to Anthony Burke. You might know him as the ubiquitous host of multiple renovation TV shows on the national broadcaster, including Grand Designs Australia, Grand Designs Transformations and Restoration Australia. (He's even got a new one about Asian design, called Culture by Design.) Today, he shifts from sympathising with those in the midst of their own particular building dilemmas to offer more general advice to all of us who contemplate building or renovating what is usually our most valuable and emotional investment: the family home. Among other things, Burke gives us a checklist of dos and don'ts – and things to bear in mind when it comes to our own construction projects. Hosting this conversation is Good Weekend senior writer Amanda Hooton.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:16):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:37):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Anthony Burke. You might know him as the ubiquitous host
of multiple renovation TV shows on the national broadcaster, including
Grand Designs Australia, Grand Designs, Transformations and Restoration Australia. He's
even got a new one about Asian design called Culture
by Design. Today he turns from sympathising with Australians in
(01:01):
the midst of their own particular building dilemmas to offer
more general advice to all of us who contemplate building
or renovating what is usually our most valuable and most
emotional investment the family home. Among other things, Burke gives
us a checklist of do's and don'ts and things to
bear in mind when it comes to our own construction
projects and hosting. Our conversation this week is good weekend,
(01:24):
senior writer Amanda Hooton.
S2 (01:27):
Hello, Anthony. It's great to have you here.
S3 (01:29):
Hi, Amanda.
S2 (01:30):
Look, let's just jump right in. Um, listeners will know you,
of course, from Grand Designs Australia and from, um, Restoration Australia.
All this suite of fantastic programs that we all love, um, watching.
But I think, um, the thing that I think about
when I think about those programs is I wonder about
all those people that you must talk to. Um, and
(01:55):
I wonder what they all say to you. I wonder
if there Sarah. I wonder if there are things that
that they have in common. You know, when at the
start of a project, are there things about their house
design or their dreams for their home that that are
that are common, common themes, common ideas, common fears? What
what is actually going through people's heads when they.
S3 (02:15):
You're looking for the off the camera kind of spill
the dirt. Anthony.
S2 (02:19):
The behind the scenes.
S3 (02:20):
Exactly what are they really doing? Anthony.
S2 (02:22):
Yeah, let's get right.
S3 (02:23):
Into.
S2 (02:24):
It. Exactly.
S3 (02:25):
Now there are there are some really interesting kind of
similarities between the homeowners, but that does change from project
to project. And actually it's the good categorizations, the Grand
Designs group. They really are the innovators. They're changing their
life in some way. And they I think the common
thread there is they really see themselves as stepping into
a new version of themselves, whatever that is, you know,
(02:47):
and not just generally not necessarily big houses, but all
sorts of things, you know, just a different circumstance. They're
they've dreamt up for themselves. I think that's what's exciting
about it, because in that sense, their ambitions aren't necessarily material.
They're about family, they're about lifestyle. They're about their kind
of place in the world and how they want to
celebrate that and and be comfortable in their new skin
(03:07):
or their skin. So that's the Grand Designs version, the
Restoration Australia group. Now they are the they are the
curators and they are the custodians of history. And I
think they all have this really beautiful. I think this
is I'm going to say it, I think I really
love the resto crew because there's this sentiment of like, well,
we are the custodians of this small, small, a Australian history. Yeah.
(03:30):
And all these little stories that we want to protect
and celebrate, you know, they're the ones that make us
what we are as a nation. And I really think
that's very true. In In Their Bones, they feel that
their real sense of, you know, protection and, and pride.
And there's a, there's a kind of a humble celebration
going on there which is, which is just wonderful.
S2 (03:49):
That's awesome. Yeah.
S3 (03:50):
I think with the Grand Designs transformation crew, you know,
they're they're the ones who were just like, wow, something's broken.
We've got to fix it. So there's a lot more
immediate that one. Yes. And that's also kind of interesting
because there is this kind of there's no time to
really overthink anything. This is like, let's move. Yeah. And
then how do we kind of do this in the
best way possible? It's not a home. It's not a
home renovation show, but it's about smaller ideas having immediate impact.
S2 (04:14):
I see.
S3 (04:15):
And I think that's the kind of the the vibe there.
S2 (04:17):
Okay. And I suppose that those things are not necessarily, um,
entirely exclusive to each group. Right. You know, you could
be doing a transformations with an old house that you're trying.
So there are beautiful elements that you want to maintain
that you're very proud of. Yeah.
S3 (04:33):
They're not.
S2 (04:33):
Exclusive.
S3 (04:33):
Categories at all.
S2 (04:34):
No. Yeah. So people are kind of probably have more
or less of one of those kind of, um, motivators.
But they may they may all three be in play.
S3 (04:44):
Yeah. This is a complex thing. This house thing.
S2 (04:46):
Oh my goodness.
S3 (04:47):
There's a lot going on in this space.
S2 (04:48):
There's the.
S3 (04:49):
Physical bits. There's the emotional load on the house. Conversation
is just incredible.
S2 (04:54):
Yeah.
S3 (04:54):
So wherever you're coming at it from, you know you're
going to get this very complex kind of little study
in human psychology that is sort of read through the
house or the project which is which is why it's
so interesting, of course, because we all can identify with it. Um,
but it's going to be so distinct for every one
of us. So I think that kind of familiar psychology
(05:14):
is something that we can all lean into.
S2 (05:16):
Yeah, absolutely. That that sort of matrix, you can always
find your own. Yeah. Your own, um, point of, um, association,
I think. Yeah. Exactly. Somewhere. Um, and I mean that
what makes that so interesting, I suppose, is that for
the viewers and indeed for the people involved in the shows, um,
which is what makes it such a fantastic television is
(05:36):
many of them are doing it for the first time. Right?
Or at least, you know, they might. It would be,
it would be a sort of, um, a thing where
I imagine people might only do it at most a
handful of times in their life, maybe 2 or 3. Um,
and so, you know, it's a it's this, as you say,
it's this enormously emotional, um, period of their lives. It's
(05:57):
an enormous financial outlay. Yes. And and yet most people
have absolutely no experience of it, you know, when they start.
That's right. Which is another, you know, great, great. Um,
that's why it's such great TV. Exactly. And it's a
great role that the programme's feel. I guess it's a
kind of, um, you know, vicarious experiencing of that, of that,
that whole scenario. I feel I felt that, you know,
(06:19):
I could not pass this opportunity up, having you here
to sort of think if we were to try to
compose a sort of checklist for people before they begin
their own house build house renovation, um, house restoration, what
do you reckon would be the the sort of the,
the absolutely crucial points that everybody should sort of bear
(06:41):
in mind or that might just, you know, temper the
agony a little bit, you know, when, when they're in
the middle of it all.
S3 (06:48):
No prejudice there, Your Honor.
S2 (06:49):
No no no no, no, not at all. Not at all.
And not just asking for a friend. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
S3 (06:56):
Oh, no. Look, I think I'm out of the, um,
there are a few things that we can all do
more of, and I think one of them in particular
is that we're we think we know what we want. And,
you know, we've obviously had a long time to think
about these projects. They are the end of a like
a long thought process. But when push comes to shove
and you're about to push the button, you kind of
really need to, I think, take a moment where you
(07:17):
can kind of extract yourself from life as normal, you know,
and sort of put yourself in the shoes of like,
all right, let's have a very honest and candid conversation
amongst ourselves, homeowners about what we're doing this for, what
we need, what we want, and why do we. So
this is like in an architectural terms, really, it's like
a return brief.
S2 (07:35):
Okay.
S3 (07:35):
You know, you say, oh yes, I want three bedrooms,
two bathrooms and a carport. But you know, okay, the
return brief is do you need these things? Let's talk
about what it would be if you only had one
car in the carport, not two. Or let's talk about
the fourth bedroom that you might need because someone else
is coming to stay. So the return brief just gets
you to have this very objective, very cold look at
what you're thinking about. Now, this is so hard because
(07:56):
of course, as I said, this is a very emotional thing,
and you've spent a lot of time imagining yourself in
this perfect next stage of your life. Yeah. Which the
house represents in no small way. So to be candid
like that is very difficult. I mean, that's really where
a good conversation with an architect often is. You know,
we'll bring out the things that are really important rather
(08:18):
than the things that are kind of just fancy wants
at the time. You know, I think it's really important
there too, to another part of the checklist is separate the,
the fashion from the fundamentals.
S2 (08:28):
Okay.
S3 (08:29):
You know, and get the fundamentals right. Please. Just get
the fundamentals right because then the fashion can come on
top of it. Yeah. You can decorate the house wherever
you want. And it's not I'm not dismissing that. It
is really important that kind of the environment, the the
warmth of it, the texture of it, that's all super important.
But I think the fundamentals are things that just don't
go away. So how are we going to live in
this place and what is our life going to be like?
(08:51):
Because there's that great quote. You know, we create our
architecture and it creates us. Yes. Or it shapes.
S2 (08:55):
Us.
S3 (08:56):
Yes. And it's very true. That's Churchill.
S2 (08:58):
That's right. Yeah.
S3 (08:59):
Often, you know, put down to Churchill. I think it
came before him. Oh, but he's the one who's always.
S2 (09:02):
Yeah, he's made it famous. Okay, that's good to know.
S3 (09:05):
Yeah. So there's a couple of things. Really good return brief.
And then that idea of wants and needs separating function
from fashion.
S2 (09:12):
Okay. And so let's talk about when you say the
fundamentals get the fundamentals right. What I mean that sounds
like something an architect would absolutely say. And it does.
And it sounds absolutely important. I'm on message. But what
you are on brand. Absolutely. What. But what are the fundamentals?
You know, for, for for someone like me. What what
do I what what should I be thinking about?
S3 (09:34):
Yeah. So I think that's when we get into I'm
not as interested in fundamentals being, say a, a floor
space ratio or an amount of space. Rather how does
your family get together? Where does your where do where
are you in your life? Socialize with those closest to you. Okay. Um,
when you if you're a young family, when the next
little one comes along, how's that going to sort of
(09:56):
reorient the whole spin of the of your life? And
how is that going to be accommodated in the home?
How many bathrooms do you need? You know, are you
comfortable to share a bathroom because it's not that important?
Or are you the kind of person that really needs
an escape to the bathroom in a in a spa
like way? So in a sort of sense, these fundamentals
are about how you live. Yeah. And yeah, the kind
(10:16):
of life that you are really trying to create for yourself. Now,
I want to sort of pull back from the version,
which is I'm going to go to a luxury hotel
and have some fancy experience like that. I'm thinking about
your everyday life and the qualities of your everyday life.
The example I always use is, I mean, in my
own world, I, you know, I make myself a coffee
like all of us do every morning, and I have
my little ritual, and all it involves is putting the
(10:39):
stovetop coffee machine on and loading it up. But this
little ritual of five ten minutes is really important to me,
and it just sets my day. and I know it's
important to me, and it kind of gives me a
sense of moving forward for the, you know, for what's
ahead for the day. And I think we all have
these rituals.
S2 (10:53):
Okay.
S3 (10:54):
Not necessarily at breakfast, but we all have them. So
where are they in your life? What's fundamental to you
in that sense?
S2 (11:00):
And then about sort of privileging them, I guess giving
them as an architectural term. Yeah. But to, to actually
making sure that you can do that in a way
that's really satisfying and pleasing. Yeah. So having the coffee
pot somewhere that you can, you know, figuring out your
bench arrangements so that you can get your coffee pot
onto your stove.
S3 (11:17):
That's right. But so there's the functional bit of that.
But then there's also the celebration of that. Yeah, I
think that's where we sort of step into really the
design side. Then I think, you know, a lot of
us could sit down and kind of organize a very
efficient plan or maybe more some than others. But you know,
that efficiency we all recognize. But to bring a sense
of celebration or joy or a little bit of ceremony
(11:38):
in an everyday way to your life, they are so
important in those moments.
S2 (11:41):
So somewhere beautiful to sit while you drink your coffee
or something. Yeah, Making sure there's somewhere that you can be.
That feels good. Precisely. Drink it. Yeah.
S3 (11:49):
And we get so caught up in the financial discussion
in the asset that is our house. We get caught
up in the the numbers, you know, the quantitative definition
of what a house is. And we often forget what
a home really is.
S2 (12:02):
Absolutely. Yeah. And actually that that reminds me, you know,
I want to go back a little bit and, and
ask you when we are kind of trying to sort
of bring to mind the kind of house we want
to build. I think for lots of us, inevitably there's
a sort of certain element of that house that is
a reflection of the houses that we've known ourselves, that
(12:23):
we've grown up in, that we remember that we have enjoyed,
you know, in, in our past lives. And I suppose
in Australian terms, you know, that's all linked very kind
of closely to this idea of the, you know, the
Australian dream, owning your own home. And that's a sort
of three bedroom, two bathroom, as you say, carport kind
of quarter acre block sort of scenario. And, you know,
(12:45):
I know that you speak, you know, often and passionately
about the fact that that is that is not really
something that we should be pursuing or, or, or expecting, um,
you know, looking forwards. So our kids are not going
to have those kind of houses. Um, and nor are we, uh,
necessarily so, so, so talk to me a little bit
(13:07):
about why that's no longer a sort of dream we
should be pursuing and what we could think about in
terms of when we are having those sort of conversations
in our head, what we can be thinking about as alternatives.
S3 (13:18):
Yeah. So this is a very difficult conversation for us
as Australians to have. So and I recognize that I
really do. I mean, this is so culturally embedded in
our the fabric of who we are, this idea of
of the home, the castle. Yeah. It's we mythologize this
in so many ways every single day. So I understand
what this implies. But, you know, the housing crisis has
(13:39):
really kind of shone a light on this whole area And,
you know, the way I look at it, and I
think a lot of the way my, my colleagues and
contemporaries look at it is like really this, that, that myth,
that version of Australia, which was invented in the 1950s
and it was invented for a number of reasons, actually,
just a quick digression. One was people returning from the
war had to have somewhere to live. But we also
(13:59):
had a lot of industry that were facing, you know,
producing guns and ammunition and tanks and things for the war.
All that industry had to turn towards something and be useful.
So it got turned towards producing houses. So you had
a military industrial complex which needed something to do and,
and you know, and a lot of that sort of
went to actually we're going to turn that into the
building industry.
S2 (14:17):
I did not know that. Okay.
S3 (14:18):
That was a big sort of that was a big
part of it. The other part was it was Menzies
who sort of said, well, if everyone owns their home,
well then that's what they'll fight for. So if you
own a home that'll keep you quiet, that'll keep you busy,
and it'll keep you kind of like in in tow
a little bit. So there was a little bit of like,
all right, let's just kind of, you know, give them cake.
S2 (14:36):
Yes.
S3 (14:37):
A little bit of.
S2 (14:37):
That, a little bit. Not quite. Bread and circuses. Kind
of like a little bit. That's right. So there's that
side to it. And carports. That's right. Yeah.
S3 (14:44):
There's that side to it. I think that was overplayed.
But there was that side to it too. It's like,
you know, just, you know, keep you occupied, give you
what you need. Um, and of course, then we all
this expectation of what an Australian life looked like was
created in that kind of moment. So that sort of happened.
But of course, that was Australia in the 1950s. This
is 70 years later. And, you know, you just can
(15:04):
on on how many hands have you got to count
all the big changes we've been through. I think the
biggest ones are technology and the demographics of Australia. Our
multicultural conversation is so much more advanced than it was,
of course, back in the day. It's changed so elaborately
and for so many good reasons. Which means that when
we think about who we're designing a house for, even
that has changed. You know, that nuclear family is now
(15:27):
in the minority. Well, that's like about 40% of the
Australian families are a what we'd call a nuclear family.
So all those other family types, all those other demographics,
all those other, um, yeah, the I mean, the house
for a 25 to 35 year old. Getting into the
market doesn't have to be the same house that we
imagine from the 1950s, nor does it have to be
the same one that I would have to have at
(15:48):
this point in my life. Yes. So we've gone from
a single type of house, which is what we all
fixate on. And this is where the government pouring money
into fixing the housing solution. I'm all for the support
that is that is going into that. However, I mean,
if we just keep building the same thing, we're only
building more of the same problem. Yes. And that's my
issue here. So while we talk about supply and demand
(16:10):
is the issue, I actually think that's not actually the case.
I think it's more about we just don't have the
diversity of housing types to offer a contemporary Australia in
a way that suits where we are right now.
S2 (16:21):
Okay.
S3 (16:22):
So more housing types is what I'm after. So you're
a single mum. You've got two kids, um, maybe recently divorced. Uh,
you are in a very different housing circumstance to someone
who say is a second generation Australian family from, say,
Sri Lanka Extended family. Mum and dad have come over
to stay with you. Now you've got sort of 8
to 10 people living in the house, three generations living together.
(16:44):
That's a very different house. Again, both of these are important.
S2 (16:47):
I see.
S3 (16:48):
So we don't have to choose to be that sort
of three bedroom, two bathroom number.
S2 (16:51):
And fit everybody into that scenario. That's right. Yeah, absolutely.
And so how do we go about I guess this
question is, you know, this is if we knew the
answer to this question, you know, we'd be the whole
country would look entirely different. But, I mean, how do
we go about doing that? You know, how do we.
Because I know there are problems at sort of seem
(17:13):
to be problems at every level. I mean, if you
want to go and if you wanted to build us
a house with a granny flat on it, for instance. Well,
you're going to have problems at council, you know, potentially. Certainly.
I think that's something that I would certainly I would face. Yes.
Knowing a little bit about my council. Yeah. Um, or,
you know, if you wanted to build a passive house,
(17:33):
if you wanted to really, you know, cut down on
your emissions and your and your energy bills and everything you.
Finding a builder who will build a passive house, or
finding a bank that will lend you the money for
a passive house. Precisely. Those things are all enormous issues.
So you know how how do we what do we
do about all those things?
S3 (17:50):
Yeah, well, I think we're at the point where we're
recognizing the the complexity of the problem. But also, as
you say, all of those barriers to taking a a
step outside the normal. So whether, let's say the passive
House example, there are so many reasons why that would
be a good idea, particularly for those of us in
Australia living in the southern states where it gets cold.
You know, that kind of model of home really makes
(18:11):
a lot of sense. Now, there are great models all
around the world where this has happened. So why wouldn't
we adopt that kind of intelligence here to go then
through that process? There's a whole lot of different regulatory requirements,
a whole lot different approval requirements, the red tape, that
kind of thing because it's just a little bit different.
So what is expected? Same thing with borrowing money from
the bank. If you're going to borrow money for a
house that is just a little bit outside that three bedroom,
(18:34):
two bathroom number, we keep referring to. You're going to
have someone say, well, we don't know what this is. Sorry.
The risk is too much. We can't loan you the
money you need for that. So there are all these
impediments structurally, in the way that we go through this
process of delivering houses, not just the design side. And
they are in the same way they are wedded to
this same type of house that we grew up with
(18:55):
from the 1950s.
S2 (18:56):
Exactly. Makes it even harder for us to sort of
escape that. That's right. You know that paradigm?
S3 (19:01):
I mean, I meet people on the show, particularly Grand Designs,
who want to do something different. I mean, they're self-selecting.
They come to us because they have a story to tell.
But in doing that, this is this is another very
common story. You know, they've had to step right outside
of these normal structures that most people would only have
available to them to be able to do what they're
doing simply because it is too, too radical, too risky.
(19:21):
But the risk is not that great, really, when you
kind of put it in context. And I think that's
one of our big things we need to change. We
need to be able to see these new models around us.
We need to experience some fear, like we're normalizing them
a little bit. You know, we're getting comfortable with this
difference and we're starting to then project ourselves into those circumstances. Yeah.
(19:42):
And it's that ability to project ourselves culturally into a
different idea of home that I think is our big
project right now. Now, this is a generational project. There's
25 years there's going to take to turn this corner.
And I get that. So it's not going to happen tomorrow,
no matter how many episodes of Grand Designs you watch.
That is not going to happen in the next heartbeat.
But we are starting to do that. And I can
(20:02):
see there are some I mean, on on the optimistic side,
there's some great policy that's starting to sort of really
have a difference. I noticed that Canberra is looking at
the missing middle now. That's a whole discussion about how
to put that granny flat in your backyard and increase
just a little bit. Yeah. The density of a normal suburb.
Very good conversation to be having right now. Just as
one example. You know, these happening all around the country,
(20:23):
but they're not mainstream and they're not understood. But importantly,
I think for us and for most people, they're not
they're not at the moment, an image of home that
can replace the one that we've grown up with.
S2 (20:34):
Yeah.
S3 (20:34):
So where do we do that? Interestingly too though, when
we travel, we love being in these other contexts. I've
traveled to Southeast Asia, traveled to Europe. You know, you
get these different models around you all the time. And
we love being in that context. So, I mean, one
of the things I love talking about at the moment,
especially to my students, is the the non-Western versions of
home that we can look to as models for the
way we might change the way we think about a
(20:56):
house in Australia, you know. And there are some great
lessons to be learned there for multi-generational living in particular.
S2 (21:11):
So when we think about our own sort of scenario
and we're imagining, you know, the kind of house that
we want to build or that we want to sort
of create out of the bones of the house that
we already have. I mean, how adventurous should we be?
I guess we I mean, that's, I guess, a question
for everybody to answer in their own sort of way.
But I guess we should be thinking, you know, outside
(21:32):
the square, to the extent that we think is both
sort of realistic for the kind of effort and time
we're prepared to put in, and also for our, our
budget and, and what that might look like. I mean,
one of the things I want to pick up on,
if we think about going back to our checklist and
you mentioned that, you know, get the fundamentals right. Don't, don't, um,
(21:55):
don't worry about fashion. And I don't know if you
got on to the question of, um, and don't worry
about real estate. Don't worry about resale. Um, and, you know,
I find that to be a very I've heard you
speak about that before, and I find that to be
a kind of fascinating confronting, isn't it? And confronting. Exactly.
Because part of the whole, um, Australian dream of home
(22:20):
ownership idea that we have is that it's our it's
our absolutely enormous asset. It's our one enormous sort of
repository of of our.
S3 (22:28):
Financial.
S2 (22:29):
Bedrock. Exactly.
S3 (22:30):
And that's that's our only option. Really?
S2 (22:32):
Yeah. You know, and yet you have this idea that
that actually thinking about resale too much. When we, when
we restore or renovate or build a home is actually
sort of death to the to the idea that you
think is so important of building a house that we
that we will love and want to live in. Yeah.
So talk talk us through that and how we kind of,
(22:53):
you know, make those things find a balance.
S3 (22:56):
Well, there's two reasons I think that. And the first
is that, you know, when you're designing for the market,
you're necessarily designing for the middle. You're trying to kind
of find this, you know, like the, the appeal to
the most people that you can to to make as
much competition for the house you're about to sell or
you imagine yourself about to sell. So by default, you're
kind of going towards mediocrity by definition. So now that
(23:18):
I've said mediocrity, you go, oh, well, you know, I
was thinking resale. You're talking about mediocrity. But really that's
what we're trying to do is create something that is
not offensive, which could be, you know, you could come
into as as someone who's out at a house inspection
and you can project yourself onto that house very quickly
and imagine yourself taking up and then maybe renovating the
kitchen and painting the house a different color. So in
that sense, the resale house has that kind of generic
(23:41):
quality to it. Yes. And of course, that's the issue
because you're going to live in this house, let's say,
even if you're going to be on average and change
house like we do in Australia about every seven years,
that's the average. It's about the average that changes. But
I think it's when I looked at it last time.
So if you're even in a house for seven years
with your family, that's seven years of living in mediocrity
in a vanilla home for someone else who's going to
(24:02):
take it over, you know, and then change the kitchen anyway.
So I think, you know, let's build a house that
is important for us and for our family now and
get the benefit of that. So we put the value
into the living in the house now conversation rather than
into the what it might be as resale down the line.
S2 (24:19):
Okay.
S3 (24:20):
So I think that's kind of like the main, main
thing for me is like, why? Why? And especially, you know,
if you live in the house longer, if we're really
talking about a family home. Then we're talking about staying
in a place, letting the home adapt around us for
maybe 2 or 3 generations. So what are we talking, 20, 30,
40 years? So of course things are going to change
in that time. But to do that, then you don't
design for some medium, medium, average person who may want
(24:43):
to buy your house at that price point. Yes, yes.
The other trap in that sort of resale thing is
then people sort of tend to design for the fashion
of the day, and things are moving so fast in
the design space right now, and it's kind of easy
to change. Oh, it's colonial one minute now. It's contemporary. Oh,
now I'm sort of changing it to sort of cottage porn,
whatever your thing is like, it's not that hard to
(25:03):
kind of do the renovation, really. Um, but that's all
just making it feel even less authentic.
S2 (25:10):
Yeah.
S3 (25:10):
Rather than the opposite, which is what we want. We
want those authentic places where memories gather, where families form
those bonds. And, you know, like you say, we all
have those fond memories of our architecture has a way
of holding these memories for us. It really is a
cultural kind of a book that we read. You know,
as we walk around the city, as we walk back
into those family homes of ours. So I think in
that sense, you know, let's acknowledge that and give that
(25:32):
the space that it really deserves.
S2 (25:33):
Yeah. If we're not worrying about fashion, if we're trying
to kind of divorce ourselves from, um, something that we
think other people will like, and also the, the thing
that is the latest fashion, you know, that everybody's sort
of doing art deco curves or whatever.
S3 (25:50):
Arches are in at the moment. You notice.
S2 (25:51):
That I have noticed that.
S3 (25:52):
Every corner's got a radius on it these.
S2 (25:54):
Days. Yeah. That's so true.
S3 (25:56):
Yeah. Give it give it two years. It'll be.
S2 (25:58):
Done. It'll be over. Um, but how do we. I
think for a lot of people, then it becomes a
kind of really? You feel it completely at sea then.
Because how do you make something that's beautiful? I mean,
you know, I think people rely on fashion because they
want to make something beautiful and they don't know how
to do that. In the absence of a sort of
(26:18):
set of rules or a set of examples that they
can look at and think, well, this is in vogue.
So it must it must be beautiful.
S3 (26:25):
Now that's fair. That's a very reasonable sort of, um,
you know, direction to come out. And I, I really
want to stress the importance of beauty, actually. And it's
really hard to talk about beauty. Yes. Um, if you're
an academic talking about beauty, you're just, you know, you're
asking for it. You're asking to be dismissed out of hand,
walk into a real estate conversation, talk about beauty and
see how long you last. Honestly, no. No time at all. Uh,
(26:46):
same talking about beauty and art can't do that anymore.
You know, it's not considered suitably. Be effete or elite enough,
you know?
S2 (26:51):
And is this something that Australians particularly struggle with?
S3 (26:54):
We do we we're not good with the soft side
of home, the emotional side of home. You know, we're
pretty good with the pragmatics. Talk about let's talk about
waterproofing details. I reckon we could gather a table up
pretty quickly around that issue. But talk about beauty. And
everyone goes, oh geez, it's so subjective. I don't know,
it's all a bit wishy washy. I don't know. But
you know, beauty's had a really interesting history in terms
(27:14):
of aesthetics. It's meant different things at different times. So
it's been from Ideal Beauty, which was the Greeks. Then
it went to sort of a um, a decorative beauty,
which was the Victorians and one of the one of
the definitions I really liked, which is, I think, totally
appropriate to us now, is this idea is beauty is
some kind of exchange that makes us both better.
S2 (27:33):
Oh, wow. Yeah.
S3 (27:34):
So there's an exchange thing here. And, you know, and
I think something is beautiful. And that actually then is
going to change me in some small way. So I
need to be open to the idea of beauty. And
that means I have to be open to the idea
of change myself. Right? So that's hard for a lot
of people to admit that. So there's a lot of
really interesting sort of theory around that and ideas. But
I love that idea of beauty being an exchange. So
(27:55):
when it gets back to the exchange.
S2 (27:56):
Between you and a building.
S3 (27:57):
You and a building you in a painting, you in
a scene, you know.
S2 (28:00):
The building or the painting actually sort of gives you
something in that process. That's right. That changes you in
some small but definable way. That's right.
S3 (28:09):
That's the offer of the artist, you know, or of
the architect or whatever. Okay, exactly. And once you sort
of you both have this kind of offer and receipt
kind of thing, but there is a sort of this
exchange idea, which is really interesting.
S2 (28:22):
Okay.
S3 (28:23):
So we're in a sort of, um, idea of beauty.
What does that mean in the family home? Well, then
we're back to the coffee. We're back to the the
place where I sit with my son and have a
quiet conversation. Because we need to have a chat about something.
You know, there's a beautiful moment that happens. The house
allows that or has a moment for that. Or in
some ways, the, you know, there's a there's a time
of day where the sun coming through the window is
(28:43):
just right. And that's where I can sit with my
wife and we can talk about big ideas or the
next 20 years of our relationship, rather than, what are
we going to have for dinner, honey, do you know
what I mean? The practicality of life. And I think
that's the beauty that we're looking for. It's all those interactions,
and that's very human. You know, I think that's something
that we want to we are bringing back. Actually, Covid
really set us back on our heels and made us
(29:05):
realise that that is a dimension to home and that
we've been missing out on.
S2 (29:09):
Do you think that actually a building can encourage those moments?
It's not only that you go, you sort of sit
down and think, I must have a place to read
my book beforehand. But actually, if you find if you
find yourself in a house and it has a beautiful
window seat beside a, you know, a lovely deep window
(29:29):
sill and a lovely, you know, a view that you
can look out on that's pleasing. It actually makes you think, well,
I'm going to I feel like sitting down and reading
a book. Absolutely. Or so that it actually it works on.
You can make your own life better sort of, you know. Yeah.
I see what you mean about exchange. The house can
actually offer that to you. That's right. You know that
you may not have been you may not have even
(29:51):
contemplated it before.
S3 (29:52):
Right. I mean, I love thinking about architecture as a
stage for life. Life's the main thing. We want to
see the actors playing out, you know, the theatre on stage,
but the architecture provides the context for that. And by
default also shapes that to some small degree. And that's
what we're talking about here. So this is not heavy handed.
This does not need luxury. It does not need acres
(30:12):
and acres of marble. You know, it is not that
version of the world. This is something which can be
very intimate and very modest, but very thoughtful, you know.
And in that way, very human, you know. I think
that's the dimension we want to bring back the personal
side to this story. Yeah.
S2 (30:28):
Yeah. And I suppose that that in itself is, you know,
although it's not you know, you don't see very many
window seats in, in contemporary homes. But if you did
see them, I don't think that that would be a
sort of exclusionary factor for many people wanting to buy
a house. You know, like so in terms of that
real estate conversation, and am I destroying my asset by
by installing a window seat? I think the answer is no.
(30:50):
In fact, you might be creating things that people didn't
even know. Could be lovely details.
S3 (30:55):
That's right. And the thing is here, you know, we're
not talking about really big changes. We're talking about small
but careful little interventions that, again, don't really make any
big difference to the the cost of a build, but
which make all the difference to the quality of a life.
S2 (31:12):
Yes. Yes. That's such a good point, isn't it? Because
I think we're all so terrified of every time we
think of some new idea or some thought. We have like,
you know, having an outdoor shower for when you come
back from the beach or whatever, and you think, oh
my God, I can't have an outdoor shower. That'll be
another 50 grand. Yeah that's right. And actually, not not
every single one of those things is necessarily going to
be 50 grand. Exactly, exactly. Although that's probably not a
(31:33):
bad idea to budget.
S3 (31:35):
No, please. Budget. That's another one of those things. Put
that on the checklist. A really good budget is very,
very important.
S2 (31:40):
Yeah. Put that on the checklist. Oh, God.
S3 (31:41):
That's another thing. Actually, another trick that I think I've
spoken about before is that when you're thinking about your
your house to be, I'd say once you've done a plan,
cut it down by 20%. Just get rid of 20%
of it. Like just make yourself.
S2 (31:53):
After you've thought through these all thought.
S3 (31:54):
It.
S2 (31:54):
All through ideas, all these.
S3 (31:56):
Finally drawn.
S2 (31:57):
It out. You're creating. Then you have to murder your darlings.
That's right.
S3 (32:02):
You've drawn it all up, and you're looking at the
plan for maybe the first time. And then at that point,
I think, get a big red pen out and just
try make yourself take out 20% of that, because that
will make you really commit to what is important at
that point, you know. You know, this has to stay.
And this is like when it's like when you're packing
for going on holidays.
S2 (32:19):
Oh, yes. Yes. Double your money. You halve your clothes
and double your money. Isn't that the idea?
S3 (32:24):
You pack your suitcase and you realize I'm not going
to wear three quarters of these clothes, but I may
go to dinner that night, so that shirt would be perfect.
So take that out. You're never going to use it.
You don't need it. But that's not going to diminish
your holiday.
S2 (32:35):
I see, I see. So maybe however careful you are,
maybe that first pass on the design is a kind
of a fantasy pass. Yeah. And yes.
S3 (32:44):
You get it on the table.
S2 (32:45):
Yeah.
S3 (32:45):
And then you do some careful editing.
S2 (32:47):
Okay. Yeah. All right. I guess I can come at that. Yeah.
I think that the other thing that I think about, um,
when I think about the joy of watching, um, those
grand design programs is. And I think that this is
not an unusual feeling, um, is the sense of the
way they it's all sort of vicarious pleasure and no
(33:08):
and no pain. Um, and yet what we hear always
is how unbelievably painful. It's just excruciating building is, you know,
how long it takes, how it's inevitably enormously, much more
expensive than you're anticipating. The whole thing actually just sounds
like a complete nightmare. I think that's, you know, I
think that's a huge kind of barrier for people, even
(33:29):
if they can, you know, even beginning the process feels terrifying. Yeah. Um, so,
I mean, what I mean, you've talked to all these people,
I mean, again, behind the scenes, are they glad they've
done it? Um, and I mean, you I know you
yourself have done a Reno. That's right. Are you glad
you did it? Is it, you know, is the payoff
kind of worth the pain, I guess?
S3 (33:50):
Well, I think so. I mean, well, but there's two
sides to this story. I mean, on the first one,
I think there's only, I would say out of we're
following about 70 houses at the moment in production. That's
a lot of houses. And out of those, the ones
that we've finished in the past episodes that we've done,
I'd say maybe two out of, let's say 50 have
only had any kind of regrets. Everyone else has been like,
(34:10):
thank goodness that's done. It was really hard, but we're
so happy we are where we are. Look at this.
We're going to love this for the next, you know,
the next generation that we're here. So I think generally
it's there's always that payoff is there.
S2 (34:21):
Okay.
S3 (34:22):
Um, the pain is worth the outcome if you like.
The other side of that though, is that it's not
painful for everyone.
S2 (34:30):
God, what a radical concept.
S3 (34:31):
I know, I mean, for me, I love the process.
I love the conversations that that happen before the builder
meets the site. I love the conversations with the builder
on site where you start changing things because conditions come up.
You have to respond. So you've got this kind of
lively conversation going on, hopefully with your builder who you know,
if they're a good builder, they'll be up for that conversation.
And there's a great kind of tic TAC that goes on.
(34:53):
And then, of course, there's the sort of the payoff
at the end where you kind of see it all
around you. The entire process is for me and for
many of the homeowners that we follow, actually, it's not
just about the finished product, it's actually about just being
part of this experience. You know, we say, you know,
there are the three big moments in our life. You know,
there's the there's the, the, the birth of our first child, uh,
getting married and then building your first home or. Yeah.
(35:14):
So these big moments and they are because they are
so anxious. They are so anxiety producing. Yes. Yes. So
I get it because again, a lot of money is
going into this. You don't know your way through this space,
which is another reason why I think, you know, on
that checklist. Just forewarned is forearmed. You know, like do
your research. Don't jump into this and don't pretend. You know,
one of the things I worry about the most with
(35:35):
those people on the show who say, I'm going to
build it myself, you know. Oh, have you got an architect? No.
S2 (35:40):
It's like warning, I think.
S3 (35:42):
Well, you know, I wouldn't do my taxes without talking
to an accountant. Why do you think you can build
a house without talking to a builder? Yeah. You know.
S2 (35:50):
So.
S3 (35:50):
I do.
S2 (35:51):
Feel actually.
S3 (35:52):
There are people around who have expertise. Take advantage of that. Yes, yes.
And I think in that way, then that doesn't just
calm the nerves, but it gives you the assurance of, um,
the dimension of what you're about to step into. And again,
one of those things, actually, maybe it's one of those
common things that most homeowners have is like, oh, yeah,
how hard can it be? And of course, after the
(36:12):
first shovel goes in the ground. Yeah, well, it's about
twice as hard as you imagined, you know. So it's
always going to be different to how you imagined. But
once you accept that, it's always different. And someone like
me who's been through this process with homeowners a lot,
you know, I know it's going to change. So I'm
not nervous about the change. You ride the change. But
for someone who's doing this for the first and maybe
only time in their life, that is very confronting, you know?
(36:34):
So how do you get prepared for that? Well, again,
just as much information ahead of time as you can.
S2 (36:39):
Yeah. That's right. And then and perhaps also just sort
of acknowledge to yourself that this is a process. This
is a process that's going to take a long time.
And you have to kind of, um, up for that.
You know, you have to be ready and you have
to anticipate that there are going to be things that
you have to change your mind about or compromise on.
S3 (36:58):
It's not all going to go your way.
S2 (36:59):
Yeah.
S3 (37:00):
You know.
S2 (37:00):
But to sort of engage with that rather than be
absolutely horrified every time it kind of happens. Yeah.
S3 (37:06):
And look, every time I have a conversation with a builder,
I mean, when I did my Reno, like, every I
would meet my builder. I was living on site while
it was happening, so I would meet the builder pretty
much every morning.
S2 (37:14):
Even more of a challenge. Yeah.
S3 (37:15):
Yes, it was very early mornings. The dog didn't like
that very much, I can tell you that much. But anyway,
so the builder would. Glenn would come by and say, hey, Glenn,
how's it going? What's on today? And we'd have a
little chat and usually a quick catch up. Five minutes,
you know. And then off he goes. And the day starts.
But sometimes we'd have an hour and a half conversation,
which he never expected. We ended up drawing drawings on
the back of a pizza box to kind of come
(37:37):
up with the solution to that problem.
S2 (37:39):
Absolute nightmare.
S3 (37:40):
Oh, I love that.
S2 (37:41):
I know you love that, but all I can hear
is variation. Variation. These are the. This is the worst
thing you can do. Midfield. That is variation.
S3 (37:51):
That's it. That's exactly right.
S2 (37:52):
Yes.
S3 (37:53):
Which I.
S2 (37:53):
Love. So stop. Don't listen to anything that Anthony Burke
has said for the last 30s. Just ignore that. But,
but but how does that how how is that part
of the process? Shouldn't you have all that stuff sorted?
Or do you just have to accept that? Actually, no.
You are going to have to figure things out like that.
You've got to trust your builder.
S3 (38:12):
I think you do. I mean, the human relations in
the build program, your architect, your homeowner, your builder in particular.
You need to have you.
S2 (38:19):
Need to take the time to find someone that you
think is great.
S3 (38:22):
Those human relationships are so important. So do not go
into this process with someone who you have even the
slightest reservation about.
S2 (38:29):
That is good advice.
S3 (38:30):
Yeah, you really need to feel confident because you're going
to have a lot of conversations. Not all of them
are going to be happy conversations, you know. And I
think the reason that the change comes on, the reason
variations happen, you know, if I sort of assume the
builder is a good person and not trying to sort
of fleece you, you know, then the variation is actually
we've come up with something which is not working out
how it was imagined, or the site has shown us
something that we didn't expect or and this is this
(38:53):
is life, this is the world. So how do you
respond in that moment? You can get very litigious very quickly,
or you can kind of work to a solution together.
And if you haven't got that foundation of trust with
each other, of course, what do you do?
S2 (39:04):
It's really difficult. Absolutely. Well, food for thought. I can't, um,
I can't figure out whether I feel like I want
to get involved in building more or less after that conversation. No,
I do. I think, um, I think, well, the shows
reveal to us the kind of thrill and the creative excitement.
S3 (39:27):
Building is.
S2 (39:27):
Possible. Yeah.
S3 (39:28):
And not everyone's up for the adventure all the time.
So I think, you know, choose your moment, but be
ready for it when it comes along. And if you
lean into it as the process, then you will love
going through it, because it really is the one opportunity
you get to really reflect on you and your family,
the things that are important to you in life and
have a kind of a meaningful outcome to that, you know?
And so looking at it with that kind of lens,
(39:51):
I think gives it sort of a whole different dimension.
It's not just worrying about the money. It's really no,
this is this is important and this is our moment.
S2 (39:58):
Yeah. No, that's a great way of looking at it. Anthony,
thank you so much for this chat. It's been fantastic.
S3 (40:03):
My pleasure. Great to talk to you.
S1 (40:08):
That was Anthony Burke with Good Weekend senior writer Amanda
Hooton on the latest Good Weekend talks. If you enjoyed
this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever
you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more
compelling conversations. Coming soon. We talk with Patrick Magee, the
author of Apple in China The Untold Story of how
(40:29):
the tech giant tied its fortunes to America's biggest rival,
transforming both company and country. Good Weekend Talks is brought
to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(40:52):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Josh towers. Tammy
Mills is our executive producer, Tom McKendrick is head of
audio and Greg Callahan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:37):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Anthony Burke. You might know him as the ubiquitous host
of multiple renovation TV shows on the national broadcaster, including
Grand Designs Australia, Grand Designs, Transformations and Restoration Australia. He's
even got a new one about Asian design called Culture
by Design. Today he turns from sympathising with Australians in
(01:01):
the midst of their own particular building dilemmas to offer
more general advice to all of us who contemplate building
or renovating what is usually our most valuable and most
emotional investment the family home. Among other things, Burke gives
us a checklist of do's and don'ts and things to
bear in mind when it comes to our own construction
projects and hosting. Our conversation this week is good weekend,
(01:24):
senior writer Amanda Hooton.
S2 (01:27):
Hello, Anthony. It's great to have you here.
S3 (01:29):
Hi, Amanda.
S2 (01:30):
Look, let's just jump right in. Um, listeners will know you,
of course, from Grand Designs Australia and from, um, Restoration Australia.
All this suite of fantastic programs that we all love, um, watching.
But I think, um, the thing that I think about
when I think about those programs is I wonder about
all those people that you must talk to. Um, and
(01:55):
I wonder what they all say to you. I wonder
if there Sarah. I wonder if there are things that
that they have in common. You know, when at the
start of a project, are there things about their house
design or their dreams for their home that that are
that are common, common themes, common ideas, common fears? What
what is actually going through people's heads when they.
S3 (02:15):
You're looking for the off the camera kind of spill
the dirt. Anthony.
S2 (02:19):
The behind the scenes.
S3 (02:20):
Exactly what are they really doing? Anthony.
S2 (02:22):
Yeah, let's get right.
S3 (02:23):
Into.
S2 (02:24):
It. Exactly.
S3 (02:25):
Now there are there are some really interesting kind of
similarities between the homeowners, but that does change from project
to project. And actually it's the good categorizations, the Grand
Designs group. They really are the innovators. They're changing their
life in some way. And they I think the common
thread there is they really see themselves as stepping into
a new version of themselves, whatever that is, you know,
(02:47):
and not just generally not necessarily big houses, but all
sorts of things, you know, just a different circumstance. They're
they've dreamt up for themselves. I think that's what's exciting
about it, because in that sense, their ambitions aren't necessarily material.
They're about family, they're about lifestyle. They're about their kind
of place in the world and how they want to
celebrate that and and be comfortable in their new skin
(03:07):
or their skin. So that's the Grand Designs version, the
Restoration Australia group. Now they are the they are the
curators and they are the custodians of history. And I
think they all have this really beautiful. I think this
is I'm going to say it, I think I really
love the resto crew because there's this sentiment of like, well,
we are the custodians of this small, small, a Australian history. Yeah.
(03:30):
And all these little stories that we want to protect
and celebrate, you know, they're the ones that make us
what we are as a nation. And I really think
that's very true. In In Their Bones, they feel that
their real sense of, you know, protection and, and pride.
And there's a, there's a kind of a humble celebration
going on there which is, which is just wonderful.
S2 (03:49):
That's awesome. Yeah.
S3 (03:50):
I think with the Grand Designs transformation crew, you know,
they're they're the ones who were just like, wow, something's broken.
We've got to fix it. So there's a lot more
immediate that one. Yes. And that's also kind of interesting
because there is this kind of there's no time to
really overthink anything. This is like, let's move. Yeah. And
then how do we kind of do this in the
best way possible? It's not a home. It's not a
home renovation show, but it's about smaller ideas having immediate impact.
S2 (04:14):
I see.
S3 (04:15):
And I think that's the kind of the the vibe there.
S2 (04:17):
Okay. And I suppose that those things are not necessarily, um,
entirely exclusive to each group. Right. You know, you could
be doing a transformations with an old house that you're trying.
So there are beautiful elements that you want to maintain
that you're very proud of. Yeah.
S3 (04:33):
They're not.
S2 (04:33):
Exclusive.
S3 (04:33):
Categories at all.
S2 (04:34):
No. Yeah. So people are kind of probably have more
or less of one of those kind of, um, motivators.
But they may they may all three be in play.
S3 (04:44):
Yeah. This is a complex thing. This house thing.
S2 (04:46):
Oh my goodness.
S3 (04:47):
There's a lot going on in this space.
S2 (04:48):
There's the.
S3 (04:49):
Physical bits. There's the emotional load on the house. Conversation
is just incredible.
S2 (04:54):
Yeah.
S3 (04:54):
So wherever you're coming at it from, you know you're
going to get this very complex kind of little study
in human psychology that is sort of read through the
house or the project which is which is why it's
so interesting, of course, because we all can identify with it. Um,
but it's going to be so distinct for every one
of us. So I think that kind of familiar psychology
(05:14):
is something that we can all lean into.
S2 (05:16):
Yeah, absolutely. That that sort of matrix, you can always
find your own. Yeah. Your own, um, point of, um, association,
I think. Yeah. Exactly. Somewhere. Um, and I mean that
what makes that so interesting, I suppose, is that for
the viewers and indeed for the people involved in the shows, um,
which is what makes it such a fantastic television is
(05:36):
many of them are doing it for the first time. Right?
Or at least, you know, they might. It would be,
it would be a sort of, um, a thing where
I imagine people might only do it at most a
handful of times in their life, maybe 2 or 3. Um,
and so, you know, it's a it's this, as you say,
it's this enormously emotional, um, period of their lives. It's
(05:57):
an enormous financial outlay. Yes. And and yet most people
have absolutely no experience of it, you know, when they start.
That's right. Which is another, you know, great, great. Um,
that's why it's such great TV. Exactly. And it's a
great role that the programme's feel. I guess it's a
kind of, um, you know, vicarious experiencing of that, of that,
that whole scenario. I feel I felt that, you know,
(06:19):
I could not pass this opportunity up, having you here
to sort of think if we were to try to
compose a sort of checklist for people before they begin
their own house build house renovation, um, house restoration, what
do you reckon would be the the sort of the,
the absolutely crucial points that everybody should sort of bear
(06:41):
in mind or that might just, you know, temper the
agony a little bit, you know, when, when they're in
the middle of it all.
S3 (06:48):
No prejudice there, Your Honor.
S2 (06:49):
No no no no, no, not at all. Not at all.
And not just asking for a friend. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
S3 (06:56):
Oh, no. Look, I think I'm out of the, um,
there are a few things that we can all do
more of, and I think one of them in particular
is that we're we think we know what we want. And,
you know, we've obviously had a long time to think
about these projects. They are the end of a like
a long thought process. But when push comes to shove
and you're about to push the button, you kind of
really need to, I think, take a moment where you
(07:17):
can kind of extract yourself from life as normal, you know,
and sort of put yourself in the shoes of like,
all right, let's have a very honest and candid conversation
amongst ourselves, homeowners about what we're doing this for, what
we need, what we want, and why do we. So
this is like in an architectural terms, really, it's like
a return brief.
S2 (07:35):
Okay.
S3 (07:35):
You know, you say, oh yes, I want three bedrooms,
two bathrooms and a carport. But you know, okay, the
return brief is do you need these things? Let's talk
about what it would be if you only had one
car in the carport, not two. Or let's talk about
the fourth bedroom that you might need because someone else
is coming to stay. So the return brief just gets
you to have this very objective, very cold look at
what you're thinking about. Now, this is so hard because
(07:56):
of course, as I said, this is a very emotional thing,
and you've spent a lot of time imagining yourself in
this perfect next stage of your life. Yeah. Which the
house represents in no small way. So to be candid
like that is very difficult. I mean, that's really where
a good conversation with an architect often is. You know,
we'll bring out the things that are really important rather
(08:18):
than the things that are kind of just fancy wants
at the time. You know, I think it's really important
there too, to another part of the checklist is separate the,
the fashion from the fundamentals.
S2 (08:28):
Okay.
S3 (08:29):
You know, and get the fundamentals right. Please. Just get
the fundamentals right because then the fashion can come on
top of it. Yeah. You can decorate the house wherever
you want. And it's not I'm not dismissing that. It
is really important that kind of the environment, the the
warmth of it, the texture of it, that's all super important.
But I think the fundamentals are things that just don't
go away. So how are we going to live in
this place and what is our life going to be like?
(08:51):
Because there's that great quote. You know, we create our
architecture and it creates us. Yes. Or it shapes.
S2 (08:55):
Us.
S3 (08:56):
Yes. And it's very true. That's Churchill.
S2 (08:58):
That's right. Yeah.
S3 (08:59):
Often, you know, put down to Churchill. I think it
came before him. Oh, but he's the one who's always.
S2 (09:02):
Yeah, he's made it famous. Okay, that's good to know.
S3 (09:05):
Yeah. So there's a couple of things. Really good return brief.
And then that idea of wants and needs separating function
from fashion.
S2 (09:12):
Okay. And so let's talk about when you say the
fundamentals get the fundamentals right. What I mean that sounds
like something an architect would absolutely say. And it does.
And it sounds absolutely important. I'm on message. But what
you are on brand. Absolutely. What. But what are the fundamentals?
You know, for, for for someone like me. What what
do I what what should I be thinking about?
S3 (09:34):
Yeah. So I think that's when we get into I'm
not as interested in fundamentals being, say a, a floor
space ratio or an amount of space. Rather how does
your family get together? Where does your where do where
are you in your life? Socialize with those closest to you. Okay. Um,
when you if you're a young family, when the next
little one comes along, how's that going to sort of
(09:56):
reorient the whole spin of the of your life? And
how is that going to be accommodated in the home?
How many bathrooms do you need? You know, are you
comfortable to share a bathroom because it's not that important?
Or are you the kind of person that really needs
an escape to the bathroom in a in a spa
like way? So in a sort of sense, these fundamentals
are about how you live. Yeah. And yeah, the kind
(10:16):
of life that you are really trying to create for yourself. Now,
I want to sort of pull back from the version,
which is I'm going to go to a luxury hotel
and have some fancy experience like that. I'm thinking about
your everyday life and the qualities of your everyday life.
The example I always use is, I mean, in my
own world, I, you know, I make myself a coffee
like all of us do every morning, and I have
my little ritual, and all it involves is putting the
(10:39):
stovetop coffee machine on and loading it up. But this
little ritual of five ten minutes is really important to me,
and it just sets my day. and I know it's
important to me, and it kind of gives me a
sense of moving forward for the, you know, for what's
ahead for the day. And I think we all have
these rituals.
S2 (10:53):
Okay.
S3 (10:54):
Not necessarily at breakfast, but we all have them. So
where are they in your life? What's fundamental to you
in that sense?
S2 (11:00):
And then about sort of privileging them, I guess giving
them as an architectural term. Yeah. But to, to actually
making sure that you can do that in a way
that's really satisfying and pleasing. Yeah. So having the coffee
pot somewhere that you can, you know, figuring out your
bench arrangements so that you can get your coffee pot
onto your stove.
S3 (11:17):
That's right. But so there's the functional bit of that.
But then there's also the celebration of that. Yeah, I
think that's where we sort of step into really the
design side. Then I think, you know, a lot of
us could sit down and kind of organize a very
efficient plan or maybe more some than others. But you know,
that efficiency we all recognize. But to bring a sense
of celebration or joy or a little bit of ceremony
(11:38):
in an everyday way to your life, they are so
important in those moments.
S2 (11:41):
So somewhere beautiful to sit while you drink your coffee
or something. Yeah, Making sure there's somewhere that you can be.
That feels good. Precisely. Drink it. Yeah.
S3 (11:49):
And we get so caught up in the financial discussion
in the asset that is our house. We get caught
up in the the numbers, you know, the quantitative definition
of what a house is. And we often forget what
a home really is.
S2 (12:02):
Absolutely. Yeah. And actually that that reminds me, you know,
I want to go back a little bit and, and
ask you when we are kind of trying to sort
of bring to mind the kind of house we want
to build. I think for lots of us, inevitably there's
a sort of certain element of that house that is
a reflection of the houses that we've known ourselves, that
(12:23):
we've grown up in, that we remember that we have enjoyed,
you know, in, in our past lives. And I suppose
in Australian terms, you know, that's all linked very kind
of closely to this idea of the, you know, the
Australian dream, owning your own home. And that's a sort
of three bedroom, two bathroom, as you say, carport kind
of quarter acre block sort of scenario. And, you know,
(12:45):
I know that you speak, you know, often and passionately
about the fact that that is that is not really
something that we should be pursuing or, or, or expecting, um,
you know, looking forwards. So our kids are not going
to have those kind of houses. Um, and nor are we, uh,
necessarily so, so, so talk to me a little bit
(13:07):
about why that's no longer a sort of dream we
should be pursuing and what we could think about in
terms of when we are having those sort of conversations
in our head, what we can be thinking about as alternatives.
S3 (13:18):
Yeah. So this is a very difficult conversation for us
as Australians to have. So and I recognize that I
really do. I mean, this is so culturally embedded in
our the fabric of who we are, this idea of
of the home, the castle. Yeah. It's we mythologize this
in so many ways every single day. So I understand
what this implies. But, you know, the housing crisis has
(13:39):
really kind of shone a light on this whole area And,
you know, the way I look at it, and I
think a lot of the way my, my colleagues and
contemporaries look at it is like really this, that, that myth,
that version of Australia, which was invented in the 1950s
and it was invented for a number of reasons, actually,
just a quick digression. One was people returning from the
war had to have somewhere to live. But we also
(13:59):
had a lot of industry that were facing, you know,
producing guns and ammunition and tanks and things for the war.
All that industry had to turn towards something and be useful.
So it got turned towards producing houses. So you had
a military industrial complex which needed something to do and,
and you know, and a lot of that sort of
went to actually we're going to turn that into the
building industry.
S2 (14:17):
I did not know that. Okay.
S3 (14:18):
That was a big sort of that was a big
part of it. The other part was it was Menzies
who sort of said, well, if everyone owns their home,
well then that's what they'll fight for. So if you
own a home that'll keep you quiet, that'll keep you busy,
and it'll keep you kind of like in in tow
a little bit. So there was a little bit of like,
all right, let's just kind of, you know, give them cake.
S2 (14:36):
Yes.
S3 (14:37):
A little bit of.
S2 (14:37):
That, a little bit. Not quite. Bread and circuses. Kind
of like a little bit. That's right. So there's that
side to it. And carports. That's right. Yeah.
S3 (14:44):
There's that side to it. I think that was overplayed.
But there was that side to it too. It's like,
you know, just, you know, keep you occupied, give you
what you need. Um, and of course, then we all
this expectation of what an Australian life looked like was
created in that kind of moment. So that sort of happened.
But of course, that was Australia in the 1950s. This
is 70 years later. And, you know, you just can
(15:04):
on on how many hands have you got to count
all the big changes we've been through. I think the
biggest ones are technology and the demographics of Australia. Our
multicultural conversation is so much more advanced than it was,
of course, back in the day. It's changed so elaborately
and for so many good reasons. Which means that when
we think about who we're designing a house for, even
that has changed. You know, that nuclear family is now
(15:27):
in the minority. Well, that's like about 40% of the
Australian families are a what we'd call a nuclear family.
So all those other family types, all those other demographics,
all those other, um, yeah, the I mean, the house
for a 25 to 35 year old. Getting into the
market doesn't have to be the same house that we
imagine from the 1950s, nor does it have to be
the same one that I would have to have at
(15:48):
this point in my life. Yes. So we've gone from
a single type of house, which is what we all
fixate on. And this is where the government pouring money
into fixing the housing solution. I'm all for the support
that is that is going into that. However, I mean,
if we just keep building the same thing, we're only
building more of the same problem. Yes. And that's my
issue here. So while we talk about supply and demand
(16:10):
is the issue, I actually think that's not actually the case.
I think it's more about we just don't have the
diversity of housing types to offer a contemporary Australia in
a way that suits where we are right now.
S2 (16:21):
Okay.
S3 (16:22):
So more housing types is what I'm after. So you're
a single mum. You've got two kids, um, maybe recently divorced. Uh,
you are in a very different housing circumstance to someone
who say is a second generation Australian family from, say,
Sri Lanka Extended family. Mum and dad have come over
to stay with you. Now you've got sort of 8
to 10 people living in the house, three generations living together.
(16:44):
That's a very different house. Again, both of these are important.
S2 (16:47):
I see.
S3 (16:48):
So we don't have to choose to be that sort
of three bedroom, two bathroom number.
S2 (16:51):
And fit everybody into that scenario. That's right. Yeah, absolutely.
And so how do we go about I guess this
question is, you know, this is if we knew the
answer to this question, you know, we'd be the whole
country would look entirely different. But, I mean, how do
we go about doing that? You know, how do we.
Because I know there are problems at sort of seem
(17:13):
to be problems at every level. I mean, if you
want to go and if you wanted to build us
a house with a granny flat on it, for instance. Well,
you're going to have problems at council, you know, potentially. Certainly.
I think that's something that I would certainly I would face. Yes.
Knowing a little bit about my council. Yeah. Um, or,
you know, if you wanted to build a passive house,
(17:33):
if you wanted to really, you know, cut down on
your emissions and your and your energy bills and everything you.
Finding a builder who will build a passive house, or
finding a bank that will lend you the money for
a passive house. Precisely. Those things are all enormous issues.
So you know how how do we what do we
do about all those things?
S3 (17:50):
Yeah, well, I think we're at the point where we're
recognizing the the complexity of the problem. But also, as
you say, all of those barriers to taking a a
step outside the normal. So whether, let's say the passive
House example, there are so many reasons why that would
be a good idea, particularly for those of us in
Australia living in the southern states where it gets cold.
You know, that kind of model of home really makes
(18:11):
a lot of sense. Now, there are great models all
around the world where this has happened. So why wouldn't
we adopt that kind of intelligence here to go then
through that process? There's a whole lot of different regulatory requirements,
a whole lot different approval requirements, the red tape, that
kind of thing because it's just a little bit different.
So what is expected? Same thing with borrowing money from
the bank. If you're going to borrow money for a
house that is just a little bit outside that three bedroom,
(18:34):
two bathroom number, we keep referring to. You're going to
have someone say, well, we don't know what this is. Sorry.
The risk is too much. We can't loan you the
money you need for that. So there are all these
impediments structurally, in the way that we go through this
process of delivering houses, not just the design side. And
they are in the same way they are wedded to
this same type of house that we grew up with
(18:55):
from the 1950s.
S2 (18:56):
Exactly. Makes it even harder for us to sort of
escape that. That's right. You know that paradigm?
S3 (19:01):
I mean, I meet people on the show, particularly Grand Designs,
who want to do something different. I mean, they're self-selecting.
They come to us because they have a story to tell.
But in doing that, this is this is another very
common story. You know, they've had to step right outside
of these normal structures that most people would only have
available to them to be able to do what they're
doing simply because it is too, too radical, too risky.
(19:21):
But the risk is not that great, really, when you
kind of put it in context. And I think that's
one of our big things we need to change. We
need to be able to see these new models around us.
We need to experience some fear, like we're normalizing them
a little bit. You know, we're getting comfortable with this
difference and we're starting to then project ourselves into those circumstances. Yeah.
(19:42):
And it's that ability to project ourselves culturally into a
different idea of home that I think is our big
project right now. Now, this is a generational project. There's
25 years there's going to take to turn this corner.
And I get that. So it's not going to happen tomorrow,
no matter how many episodes of Grand Designs you watch.
That is not going to happen in the next heartbeat.
But we are starting to do that. And I can
(20:02):
see there are some I mean, on on the optimistic side,
there's some great policy that's starting to sort of really
have a difference. I noticed that Canberra is looking at
the missing middle now. That's a whole discussion about how
to put that granny flat in your backyard and increase
just a little bit. Yeah. The density of a normal suburb.
Very good conversation to be having right now. Just as
one example. You know, these happening all around the country,
(20:23):
but they're not mainstream and they're not understood. But importantly,
I think for us and for most people, they're not
they're not at the moment, an image of home that
can replace the one that we've grown up with.
S2 (20:34):
Yeah.
S3 (20:34):
So where do we do that? Interestingly too though, when
we travel, we love being in these other contexts. I've
traveled to Southeast Asia, traveled to Europe. You know, you
get these different models around you all the time. And
we love being in that context. So, I mean, one
of the things I love talking about at the moment,
especially to my students, is the the non-Western versions of
home that we can look to as models for the
way we might change the way we think about a
(20:56):
house in Australia, you know. And there are some great
lessons to be learned there for multi-generational living in particular.
S2 (21:11):
So when we think about our own sort of scenario
and we're imagining, you know, the kind of house that
we want to build or that we want to sort
of create out of the bones of the house that
we already have. I mean, how adventurous should we be?
I guess we I mean, that's, I guess, a question
for everybody to answer in their own sort of way.
But I guess we should be thinking, you know, outside
(21:32):
the square, to the extent that we think is both
sort of realistic for the kind of effort and time
we're prepared to put in, and also for our, our
budget and, and what that might look like. I mean,
one of the things I want to pick up on,
if we think about going back to our checklist and
you mentioned that, you know, get the fundamentals right. Don't, don't, um,
(21:55):
don't worry about fashion. And I don't know if you
got on to the question of, um, and don't worry
about real estate. Don't worry about resale. Um, and, you know,
I find that to be a very I've heard you
speak about that before, and I find that to be
a kind of fascinating confronting, isn't it? And confronting. Exactly.
Because part of the whole, um, Australian dream of home
(22:20):
ownership idea that we have is that it's our it's
our absolutely enormous asset. It's our one enormous sort of
repository of of our.
S3 (22:28):
Financial.
S2 (22:29):
Bedrock. Exactly.
S3 (22:30):
And that's that's our only option. Really?
S2 (22:32):
Yeah. You know, and yet you have this idea that
that actually thinking about resale too much. When we, when
we restore or renovate or build a home is actually
sort of death to the to the idea that you
think is so important of building a house that we
that we will love and want to live in. Yeah.
So talk talk us through that and how we kind of,
(22:53):
you know, make those things find a balance.
S3 (22:56):
Well, there's two reasons I think that. And the first
is that, you know, when you're designing for the market,
you're necessarily designing for the middle. You're trying to kind
of find this, you know, like the, the appeal to
the most people that you can to to make as
much competition for the house you're about to sell or
you imagine yourself about to sell. So by default, you're
kind of going towards mediocrity by definition. So now that
(23:18):
I've said mediocrity, you go, oh, well, you know, I
was thinking resale. You're talking about mediocrity. But really that's
what we're trying to do is create something that is
not offensive, which could be, you know, you could come
into as as someone who's out at a house inspection
and you can project yourself onto that house very quickly
and imagine yourself taking up and then maybe renovating the
kitchen and painting the house a different color. So in
that sense, the resale house has that kind of generic
(23:41):
quality to it. Yes. And of course, that's the issue
because you're going to live in this house, let's say,
even if you're going to be on average and change
house like we do in Australia about every seven years,
that's the average. It's about the average that changes. But
I think it's when I looked at it last time.
So if you're even in a house for seven years
with your family, that's seven years of living in mediocrity
in a vanilla home for someone else who's going to
(24:02):
take it over, you know, and then change the kitchen anyway.
So I think, you know, let's build a house that
is important for us and for our family now and
get the benefit of that. So we put the value
into the living in the house now conversation rather than
into the what it might be as resale down the line.
S2 (24:19):
Okay.
S3 (24:20):
So I think that's kind of like the main, main
thing for me is like, why? Why? And especially, you know,
if you live in the house longer, if we're really
talking about a family home. Then we're talking about staying
in a place, letting the home adapt around us for
maybe 2 or 3 generations. So what are we talking, 20, 30,
40 years? So of course things are going to change
in that time. But to do that, then you don't
design for some medium, medium, average person who may want
(24:43):
to buy your house at that price point. Yes, yes.
The other trap in that sort of resale thing is
then people sort of tend to design for the fashion
of the day, and things are moving so fast in
the design space right now, and it's kind of easy
to change. Oh, it's colonial one minute now. It's contemporary. Oh,
now I'm sort of changing it to sort of cottage porn,
whatever your thing is like, it's not that hard to
(25:03):
kind of do the renovation, really. Um, but that's all
just making it feel even less authentic.
S2 (25:10):
Yeah.
S3 (25:10):
Rather than the opposite, which is what we want. We
want those authentic places where memories gather, where families form
those bonds. And, you know, like you say, we all
have those fond memories of our architecture has a way
of holding these memories for us. It really is a
cultural kind of a book that we read. You know,
as we walk around the city, as we walk back
into those family homes of ours. So I think in
that sense, you know, let's acknowledge that and give that
(25:32):
the space that it really deserves.
S2 (25:33):
Yeah. If we're not worrying about fashion, if we're trying
to kind of divorce ourselves from, um, something that we
think other people will like, and also the, the thing
that is the latest fashion, you know, that everybody's sort
of doing art deco curves or whatever.
S3 (25:50):
Arches are in at the moment. You notice.
S2 (25:51):
That I have noticed that.
S3 (25:52):
Every corner's got a radius on it these.
S2 (25:54):
Days. Yeah. That's so true.
S3 (25:56):
Yeah. Give it give it two years. It'll be.
S2 (25:58):
Done. It'll be over. Um, but how do we. I
think for a lot of people, then it becomes a
kind of really? You feel it completely at sea then.
Because how do you make something that's beautiful? I mean,
you know, I think people rely on fashion because they
want to make something beautiful and they don't know how
to do that. In the absence of a sort of
(26:18):
set of rules or a set of examples that they
can look at and think, well, this is in vogue.
So it must it must be beautiful.
S3 (26:25):
Now that's fair. That's a very reasonable sort of, um,
you know, direction to come out. And I, I really
want to stress the importance of beauty, actually. And it's
really hard to talk about beauty. Yes. Um, if you're
an academic talking about beauty, you're just, you know, you're
asking for it. You're asking to be dismissed out of hand,
walk into a real estate conversation, talk about beauty and
see how long you last. Honestly, no. No time at all. Uh,
(26:46):
same talking about beauty and art can't do that anymore.
You know, it's not considered suitably. Be effete or elite enough,
you know?
S2 (26:51):
And is this something that Australians particularly struggle with?
S3 (26:54):
We do we we're not good with the soft side
of home, the emotional side of home. You know, we're
pretty good with the pragmatics. Talk about let's talk about
waterproofing details. I reckon we could gather a table up
pretty quickly around that issue. But talk about beauty. And
everyone goes, oh geez, it's so subjective. I don't know,
it's all a bit wishy washy. I don't know. But
you know, beauty's had a really interesting history in terms
(27:14):
of aesthetics. It's meant different things at different times. So
it's been from Ideal Beauty, which was the Greeks. Then
it went to sort of a um, a decorative beauty,
which was the Victorians and one of the one of
the definitions I really liked, which is, I think, totally
appropriate to us now, is this idea is beauty is
some kind of exchange that makes us both better.
S2 (27:33):
Oh, wow. Yeah.
S3 (27:34):
So there's an exchange thing here. And, you know, and
I think something is beautiful. And that actually then is
going to change me in some small way. So I
need to be open to the idea of beauty. And
that means I have to be open to the idea
of change myself. Right? So that's hard for a lot
of people to admit that. So there's a lot of
really interesting sort of theory around that and ideas. But
I love that idea of beauty being an exchange. So
(27:55):
when it gets back to the exchange.
S2 (27:56):
Between you and a building.
S3 (27:57):
You and a building you in a painting, you in
a scene, you know.
S2 (28:00):
The building or the painting actually sort of gives you
something in that process. That's right. That changes you in
some small but definable way. That's right.
S3 (28:09):
That's the offer of the artist, you know, or of
the architect or whatever. Okay, exactly. And once you sort
of you both have this kind of offer and receipt
kind of thing, but there is a sort of this
exchange idea, which is really interesting.
S2 (28:22):
Okay.
S3 (28:23):
So we're in a sort of, um, idea of beauty.
What does that mean in the family home? Well, then
we're back to the coffee. We're back to the the
place where I sit with my son and have a
quiet conversation. Because we need to have a chat about something.
You know, there's a beautiful moment that happens. The house
allows that or has a moment for that. Or in
some ways, the, you know, there's a there's a time
of day where the sun coming through the window is
(28:43):
just right. And that's where I can sit with my
wife and we can talk about big ideas or the
next 20 years of our relationship, rather than, what are
we going to have for dinner, honey, do you know
what I mean? The practicality of life. And I think
that's the beauty that we're looking for. It's all those interactions,
and that's very human. You know, I think that's something
that we want to we are bringing back. Actually, Covid
really set us back on our heels and made us
(29:05):
realise that that is a dimension to home and that
we've been missing out on.
S2 (29:09):
Do you think that actually a building can encourage those moments?
It's not only that you go, you sort of sit
down and think, I must have a place to read
my book beforehand. But actually, if you find if you
find yourself in a house and it has a beautiful
window seat beside a, you know, a lovely deep window
(29:29):
sill and a lovely, you know, a view that you
can look out on that's pleasing. It actually makes you think, well,
I'm going to I feel like sitting down and reading
a book. Absolutely. Or so that it actually it works on.
You can make your own life better sort of, you know. Yeah.
I see what you mean about exchange. The house can
actually offer that to you. That's right. You know that
you may not have been you may not have even
(29:51):
contemplated it before.
S3 (29:52):
Right. I mean, I love thinking about architecture as a
stage for life. Life's the main thing. We want to
see the actors playing out, you know, the theatre on stage,
but the architecture provides the context for that. And by
default also shapes that to some small degree. And that's
what we're talking about here. So this is not heavy handed.
This does not need luxury. It does not need acres
(30:12):
and acres of marble. You know, it is not that
version of the world. This is something which can be
very intimate and very modest, but very thoughtful, you know.
And in that way, very human, you know. I think
that's the dimension we want to bring back the personal
side to this story. Yeah.
S2 (30:28):
Yeah. And I suppose that that in itself is, you know,
although it's not you know, you don't see very many
window seats in, in contemporary homes. But if you did
see them, I don't think that that would be a
sort of exclusionary factor for many people wanting to buy
a house. You know, like so in terms of that
real estate conversation, and am I destroying my asset by
by installing a window seat? I think the answer is no.
(30:50):
In fact, you might be creating things that people didn't
even know. Could be lovely details.
S3 (30:55):
That's right. And the thing is here, you know, we're
not talking about really big changes. We're talking about small
but careful little interventions that, again, don't really make any
big difference to the the cost of a build, but
which make all the difference to the quality of a life.
S2 (31:12):
Yes. Yes. That's such a good point, isn't it? Because
I think we're all so terrified of every time we
think of some new idea or some thought. We have like,
you know, having an outdoor shower for when you come
back from the beach or whatever, and you think, oh
my God, I can't have an outdoor shower. That'll be
another 50 grand. Yeah that's right. And actually, not not
every single one of those things is necessarily going to
be 50 grand. Exactly, exactly. Although that's probably not a
(31:33):
bad idea to budget.
S3 (31:35):
No, please. Budget. That's another one of those things. Put
that on the checklist. A really good budget is very,
very important.
S2 (31:40):
Yeah. Put that on the checklist. Oh, God.
S3 (31:41):
That's another thing. Actually, another trick that I think I've
spoken about before is that when you're thinking about your
your house to be, I'd say once you've done a plan,
cut it down by 20%. Just get rid of 20%
of it. Like just make yourself.
S2 (31:53):
After you've thought through these all thought.
S3 (31:54):
It.
S2 (31:54):
All through ideas, all these.
S3 (31:56):
Finally drawn.
S2 (31:57):
It out. You're creating. Then you have to murder your darlings.
That's right.
S3 (32:02):
You've drawn it all up, and you're looking at the
plan for maybe the first time. And then at that point,
I think, get a big red pen out and just
try make yourself take out 20% of that, because that
will make you really commit to what is important at
that point, you know. You know, this has to stay.
And this is like when it's like when you're packing
for going on holidays.
S2 (32:19):
Oh, yes. Yes. Double your money. You halve your clothes
and double your money. Isn't that the idea?
S3 (32:24):
You pack your suitcase and you realize I'm not going
to wear three quarters of these clothes, but I may
go to dinner that night, so that shirt would be perfect.
So take that out. You're never going to use it.
You don't need it. But that's not going to diminish
your holiday.
S2 (32:35):
I see, I see. So maybe however careful you are,
maybe that first pass on the design is a kind
of a fantasy pass. Yeah. And yes.
S3 (32:44):
You get it on the table.
S2 (32:45):
Yeah.
S3 (32:45):
And then you do some careful editing.
S2 (32:47):
Okay. Yeah. All right. I guess I can come at that. Yeah.
I think that the other thing that I think about, um,
when I think about the joy of watching, um, those
grand design programs is. And I think that this is
not an unusual feeling, um, is the sense of the
way they it's all sort of vicarious pleasure and no
(33:08):
and no pain. Um, and yet what we hear always
is how unbelievably painful. It's just excruciating building is, you know,
how long it takes, how it's inevitably enormously, much more
expensive than you're anticipating. The whole thing actually just sounds
like a complete nightmare. I think that's, you know, I
think that's a huge kind of barrier for people, even
(33:29):
if they can, you know, even beginning the process feels terrifying. Yeah. Um, so,
I mean, what I mean, you've talked to all these people,
I mean, again, behind the scenes, are they glad they've
done it? Um, and I mean, you I know you
yourself have done a Reno. That's right. Are you glad
you did it? Is it, you know, is the payoff
kind of worth the pain, I guess?
S3 (33:50):
Well, I think so. I mean, well, but there's two
sides to this story. I mean, on the first one,
I think there's only, I would say out of we're
following about 70 houses at the moment in production. That's
a lot of houses. And out of those, the ones
that we've finished in the past episodes that we've done,
I'd say maybe two out of, let's say 50 have
only had any kind of regrets. Everyone else has been like,
(34:10):
thank goodness that's done. It was really hard, but we're
so happy we are where we are. Look at this.
We're going to love this for the next, you know,
the next generation that we're here. So I think generally
it's there's always that payoff is there.
S2 (34:21):
Okay.
S3 (34:22):
Um, the pain is worth the outcome if you like.
The other side of that though, is that it's not
painful for everyone.
S2 (34:30):
God, what a radical concept.
S3 (34:31):
I know, I mean, for me, I love the process.
I love the conversations that that happen before the builder
meets the site. I love the conversations with the builder
on site where you start changing things because conditions come up.
You have to respond. So you've got this kind of
lively conversation going on, hopefully with your builder who you know,
if they're a good builder, they'll be up for that conversation.
And there's a great kind of tic TAC that goes on.
(34:53):
And then, of course, there's the sort of the payoff
at the end where you kind of see it all
around you. The entire process is for me and for
many of the homeowners that we follow, actually, it's not
just about the finished product, it's actually about just being
part of this experience. You know, we say, you know,
there are the three big moments in our life. You know,
there's the there's the, the, the birth of our first child, uh,
getting married and then building your first home or. Yeah.
(35:14):
So these big moments and they are because they are
so anxious. They are so anxiety producing. Yes. Yes. So
I get it because again, a lot of money is
going into this. You don't know your way through this space,
which is another reason why I think, you know, on
that checklist. Just forewarned is forearmed. You know, like do
your research. Don't jump into this and don't pretend. You know,
one of the things I worry about the most with
(35:35):
those people on the show who say, I'm going to
build it myself, you know. Oh, have you got an architect? No.
S2 (35:40):
It's like warning, I think.
S3 (35:42):
Well, you know, I wouldn't do my taxes without talking
to an accountant. Why do you think you can build
a house without talking to a builder? Yeah. You know.
S2 (35:50):
So.
S3 (35:50):
I do.
S2 (35:51):
Feel actually.
S3 (35:52):
There are people around who have expertise. Take advantage of that. Yes, yes.
And I think in that way, then that doesn't just
calm the nerves, but it gives you the assurance of, um,
the dimension of what you're about to step into. And again,
one of those things, actually, maybe it's one of those
common things that most homeowners have is like, oh, yeah,
how hard can it be? And of course, after the
(36:12):
first shovel goes in the ground. Yeah, well, it's about
twice as hard as you imagined, you know. So it's
always going to be different to how you imagined. But
once you accept that, it's always different. And someone like
me who's been through this process with homeowners a lot,
you know, I know it's going to change. So I'm
not nervous about the change. You ride the change. But
for someone who's doing this for the first and maybe
only time in their life, that is very confronting, you know?
(36:34):
So how do you get prepared for that? Well, again,
just as much information ahead of time as you can.
S2 (36:39):
Yeah. That's right. And then and perhaps also just sort
of acknowledge to yourself that this is a process. This
is a process that's going to take a long time.
And you have to kind of, um, up for that.
You know, you have to be ready and you have
to anticipate that there are going to be things that
you have to change your mind about or compromise on.
S3 (36:58):
It's not all going to go your way.
S2 (36:59):
Yeah.
S3 (37:00):
You know.
S2 (37:00):
But to sort of engage with that rather than be
absolutely horrified every time it kind of happens. Yeah.
S3 (37:06):
And look, every time I have a conversation with a builder,
I mean, when I did my Reno, like, every I
would meet my builder. I was living on site while
it was happening, so I would meet the builder pretty
much every morning.
S2 (37:14):
Even more of a challenge. Yeah.
S3 (37:15):
Yes, it was very early mornings. The dog didn't like
that very much, I can tell you that much. But anyway,
so the builder would. Glenn would come by and say, hey, Glenn,
how's it going? What's on today? And we'd have a
little chat and usually a quick catch up. Five minutes,
you know. And then off he goes. And the day starts.
But sometimes we'd have an hour and a half conversation,
which he never expected. We ended up drawing drawings on
the back of a pizza box to kind of come
(37:37):
up with the solution to that problem.
S2 (37:39):
Absolute nightmare.
S3 (37:40):
Oh, I love that.
S2 (37:41):
I know you love that, but all I can hear
is variation. Variation. These are the. This is the worst
thing you can do. Midfield. That is variation.
S3 (37:51):
That's it. That's exactly right.
S2 (37:52):
Yes.
S3 (37:53):
Which I.
S2 (37:53):
Love. So stop. Don't listen to anything that Anthony Burke
has said for the last 30s. Just ignore that. But,
but but how does that how how is that part
of the process? Shouldn't you have all that stuff sorted?
Or do you just have to accept that? Actually, no.
You are going to have to figure things out like that.
You've got to trust your builder.
S3 (38:12):
I think you do. I mean, the human relations in
the build program, your architect, your homeowner, your builder in particular.
You need to have you.
S2 (38:19):
Need to take the time to find someone that you
think is great.
S3 (38:22):
Those human relationships are so important. So do not go
into this process with someone who you have even the
slightest reservation about.
S2 (38:29):
That is good advice.
S3 (38:30):
Yeah, you really need to feel confident because you're going
to have a lot of conversations. Not all of them
are going to be happy conversations, you know. And I
think the reason that the change comes on, the reason
variations happen, you know, if I sort of assume the
builder is a good person and not trying to sort
of fleece you, you know, then the variation is actually
we've come up with something which is not working out
how it was imagined, or the site has shown us
something that we didn't expect or and this is this
(38:53):
is life, this is the world. So how do you
respond in that moment? You can get very litigious very quickly,
or you can kind of work to a solution together.
And if you haven't got that foundation of trust with
each other, of course, what do you do?
S2 (39:04):
It's really difficult. Absolutely. Well, food for thought. I can't, um,
I can't figure out whether I feel like I want
to get involved in building more or less after that conversation. No,
I do. I think, um, I think, well, the shows
reveal to us the kind of thrill and the creative excitement.
S3 (39:27):
Building is.
S2 (39:27):
Possible. Yeah.
S3 (39:28):
And not everyone's up for the adventure all the time.
So I think, you know, choose your moment, but be
ready for it when it comes along. And if you
lean into it as the process, then you will love
going through it, because it really is the one opportunity
you get to really reflect on you and your family,
the things that are important to you in life and
have a kind of a meaningful outcome to that, you know?
And so looking at it with that kind of lens,
(39:51):
I think gives it sort of a whole different dimension.
It's not just worrying about the money. It's really no,
this is this is important and this is our moment.
S2 (39:58):
Yeah. No, that's a great way of looking at it. Anthony,
thank you so much for this chat. It's been fantastic.
S3 (40:03):
My pleasure. Great to talk to you.
S1 (40:08):
That was Anthony Burke with Good Weekend senior writer Amanda
Hooton on the latest Good Weekend talks. If you enjoyed
this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever
you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more
compelling conversations. Coming soon. We talk with Patrick Magee, the
author of Apple in China The Untold Story of how
(40:29):
the tech giant tied its fortunes to America's biggest rival,
transforming both company and country. Good Weekend Talks is brought
to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(40:52):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Josh towers. Tammy
Mills is our executive producer, Tom McKendrick is head of
audio and Greg Callahan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.