February 21, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode we speak with Callum Linnane, a principal dancer with The Australian Ballet. Linnane, 29, has been dancing since he enrolled in tap classes as a seven year old in regional Victoria.
Now he’s a star of the show - the kind of person who does magazine spreads and launches spring fashion campaigns. (His social media followers have described him as everything from Australia’s answer to Rudolf Nureyev, to a young David Bowie.)
Good Weekend senior writer Konrad Marshall talks to this son of a bricklayer about growing up in Ballarat, surviving (and thriving) on the grandest stage, and his upcoming titular role in Nijinsky, the latest offering from The Australian Ballet.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:07):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks,
a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating
people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.
Every week, you can download new episodes in which top
journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about
(00:28):
the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we
speak with Callum Linnane, the principal dancer for the Australian Ballet. Linnane, 29,
has been dancing since he was first enrolled in tap
lessons as a seven year old in regional Victoria. Now
he's the star of the show, the kind of person
who does magazine spreads and launches spring fashion campaigns on
(00:50):
his social media. Followers have described him as everything from
Australia's answer to Rudolf Nureyev to a young David Bowie.
But really, he's just a boy from Ballarat who's made
it big on the stage and is about to play
the titular role in Nijinsky. The latest offering from the
Australian Ballet. Welcome, Callum.
S2 (01:08):
Wow, what an intro. Thanks for having me like that.
That was great. We're happy to have you here.
S1 (01:15):
Now, I've been to the ballet a few times, but
I'm no expert, and I suspect many of our listeners
probably fall into that same boat. So, first of all,
what does it mean to be the principal artist beyond
kind of the car parking space and the the Qantas
Club membership?
S2 (01:29):
Oh my gosh, you have done your research. Well, yeah,
they're the best perks. Um, well, I mean, it's probably
I need to try and describe it, like, separate to
my own dreams and what it meant to me because,
you know, it's all I wanted to be ever since
I was 13. But you join a ballet company or
most ballet companies, um, in everything separated into rank. So
(01:49):
you join usually as an 18 or 19 year old
in the corps de ballet. Um, the Australian Ballet has
five ranks. Most ballet companies kind of have around the
same and throughout, I suppose, years of hard work and
getting opportunities and strokes of luck and good casting opportunities
and whatnot. Um, you know, you I would say most
(02:10):
dancers try to climb the ranks to become principal. And yeah,
I suppose it means you are a leader of the company.
You you tend to do the, the featured work, you know.
So I suppose the pressure's on and whatnot, but yeah,
it's like, I guess it's the kind of top pinnacle
of the of the ballet company.
S1 (02:29):
We'll get to that pressure in a minute. Yeah, definitely
want to.
S2 (02:32):
Talk about that.
S1 (02:33):
We're here though, in part because of that upcoming production
of Nijinsky, which is Feb 21 to March 1st at
the Regent Theatre in Melbourne and then April 4 to
22 at the opera House in Sydney. But you've played
this role before, right back in 2016. I understand it
was one of your earliest principal roles, and I read
that you were kind of terrified to step onto that
(02:55):
stage at the time. Can you take us back to
that moment and why you were so scared?
S2 (03:00):
Yeah, it was, um. So Nijinsky, uh, by John Neumeier.
It was the first full length principal role that I
was given, um, full length, meaning like an entire evening work.
That year I was in my second year in the
in the ballet company, and I'd done some featured roles,
but this was the first, like, you're doing the lead
(03:20):
role of an entire, uh, you know, two act ballet.
So it was obviously very exciting. But, um, you know,
a big opportunity came with lots of lots of stress.
And yeah, I remember the first show I wasn't necessarily
supposed to go on for the Melbourne season. I was
going to go on later in the year, um, in Sydney.
And one of the other guys who was cast for
(03:42):
Nijinsky broke his rib in. He broke his rib before
the show on the Wednesday and pushed through and did
the show. Wow. Um, and then so that was a Wednesday.
And then on Thursday, I got the tap and it
was like, you're you need to go on.
S1 (03:57):
Oh my God.
S2 (03:58):
On Saturday. Yeah. So I rehearsed that night and then
the next day did costume fittings. And then I was
on on Saturday matinee and I was obviously excited. But yeah,
you're right, I was terrified. And I remember I had
a bunch of family came to the show on the
Saturday and the ballet opens, um, in, in kind of
(04:21):
more theatrical way, when audience members come in to the auditorium,
the curtain's already up, and what they see is like
a ballroom on stage. And then Nijinsky's entrance. He's sort
of wrapped in a big cloak, and I remember just
telling myself, like, to try and calm down because I
could see, like, I could see the cloak actually shaking.
(04:41):
I was that nervous. Yeah. And I had to walk
down this, like small flight of stairs. And my goal
was just to get to the bottom of the stairs
without falling over. So, yeah, I was just sweating bullets. Um,
but then it turned out to be a great, great show.
And it was a really great experience and opportunity for me.
S1 (04:58):
Excellent. So Vaslav Nijinsky is, of course, a kind of
beloved and tragic figure in ballet. Um, what can you
tell listeners about him as a kind of person and
performer and what you need to convey about him on
stage through through dance?
S2 (05:12):
Well, I think what's so interesting about him as a,
as a character to play is that there's no actual
footage of him dancing. So it's all kind of based
on people's accounts of having watched him. Um, and, you know,
it sounds like and I do believe that he really
was like the first great male ballet superstar, but because
there's no footage, I think it lends itself to a
(05:33):
sort of myth about him. Um, and I think what's
interesting about him is that as a performer, apparently he
was just completely transformative and in a vast array of, um,
very different characters. You know, he's famous for playing like
the poet in Les La Sylphide, The spirit of the Rose,
The Golden Slave, the Faun in afternoon of a Faun.
(05:56):
Lots of very different characters, but he would really become those,
those those people, you know, some of them aren't people
on stage. And I think as a person separately to that,
he was very, um, I mean, it's tricky to describe very,
very intelligent, but I think very, um, socially kind of
(06:16):
naive and simple. And so I think there's these two
kind of, um, contrasts is that the person on stage
was very, very alive and um, and would transform. But
then him as a, as a man, as a person was. Yeah.
Sort of very, very pure, naive. Um, not exactly the
(06:37):
charismatic man about town. That would sort of happen on stage,
but yeah. So these two kind of polar opposites. And
he was an undiagnosed schizophrenic. Yeah. And then as we yeah,
as we, as he got later into life. Um, actually,
when he was, like late 20s. Yeah, he was he
was diagnosed schizophrenic. Um, in, in Switzerland. Yeah. Which is just,
(06:59):
I mean, tragic, you know, he was this really was
this sort of tortured artist. And, um. Yeah, he gave
his final performance when he was 29 years old and
and then spent the next 30 years of his life
in institutions. Yeah. So it really was a real fall.
A real fall from grace. But yeah, I mean, it
lends itself to to a really interesting and, um, deep
(07:22):
character to, to play on stage.
S1 (07:25):
Okay. That's his backstory. Let's, let's zoom back into to yours. Now,
you were a sporty kid, but started dancing when you
were seven. How did that happen? How did you get enrolled?
S2 (07:35):
I always, without really realizing it, I liked dancing, and
I think I was at a natural knack for dancing.
And it was. Michael Jackson was the instigator. Like, I
think there was a TV special on, and I was
sort of just transfixed to the television, and I think
dad recorded it. And so I would watch it over
and over because I remember I still remember just watching
(07:56):
how this guy could dance. And, and so I sort
of started to try and learn and copy the moves.
And I think Mum and Dad were like, oh, wow, okay,
Cal can can move. And then a teacher at school when,
you know, you must do like end of year kind
of school concerts. Sure. And you learn really basic choreography.
I think that teacher was like, oh, you know, your
(08:17):
son can dance and you should put him in dance lessons.
And so mum enrolled me in tap lessons and I
was furious. I did not want to do dancing, you know,
I had my I had my, my idea of who
I was and, and that was going against that. And
I think I was just like a, I was worried
about being bullied at school and, but mum convinced me
(08:40):
do a year and then you can stop and then
you've tried it? Sure. So I did a year, and
I was okay with it. It wasn't like I loved it.
And then. But it was at the end of that
year that I was on stage for the first time,
and it just, like, completely hooked me. Wow.
S1 (08:58):
What was it about being on stage?
S2 (09:00):
I just remember, I mean, it's hard to it's hard
to put into words. It's just like a real, uh,
feeling or like, I don't know, something chemical. I'm not sure.
But I remember being in the wings waiting before our
entrance to go on, and I was just so excited. Yeah.
And and it was such a rush. And then we
did the show and everything around it to, like, I
(09:21):
remember just the environment of being around your friends, like,
backstage and how fun and exciting that was. And that's
still the case. Like, you know, we do these amazing,
great scary things on stage. But, you know, I dance
in the Australian Ballet with people I've been at school
with since I was 12. So it's like, you know,
(09:41):
my best friends and my family, and I think it's
the same of when I was seven. It was like,
you know, the excitement and the nerves of being on
stage and dancing, but also just like hanging out with
your friends. Right? And, and you get such a high
from it. And I remember after the show mum coming
backstage and was like, great, you know, you've done your year.
And I was like, and I want to come back
(10:03):
next year. And it just sort of kept rolling from there.
S1 (10:06):
And you did as you say. You started with tap
and then you did things like modern dance, hip hop.
But there was this point where kind of ballet was
a bridge too far, right? You're like, I can't make
that step. Yeah, not not doing that.
S2 (10:19):
Yeah. I had this idea in my head like that.
I'd be wearing like, a tutu or something if they
enrolled me in ballet, and it just seemed like a
step too far at that at that age for me,
you know? Yeah, I was 11, I think. And, you know,
I was in Ballarat and it just, I don't know,
it was just it seemed quite scary to me.
S1 (10:37):
Country town.
S2 (10:38):
Yeah. Yeah. Even though I was pretty lucky, like I
never got. I never copped anything for, you know, for dancing.
And so many people I work with now had it
really rough. Yeah. Growing up doing dance no matter what
city they were in. And. Yeah, so I was like, okay,
everything but ballet. And then my teachers were like, you know,
(11:00):
you really should do ballet. Like, it'll it's it's good
to have a technique. It'll help everything else. And, and
I was really against it. And then I actually only
found this out recently that my, um, eldest brother was
the one, I think, who had a lot of convincing
on me because he was just like. How? Like they're
offering you, like, free lessons for six months. Like, just
try it, just try it, and then you can say
(11:21):
you tried it. And then and I was like, okay,
maybe hearing my older brothers, you know, kind of be
encouraging about it. Um, and so I tried it and
then I was hooked. Yeah. Loved it. Yeah. Loved it.
S1 (11:33):
And we're all the better for it. Um, how how
quickly did it become a sort of a massive commitment
in your life. Like I understand as a by the
time you were 12, you were sort of catching a train,
a v-line train by yourself to Melbourne to to go
to ballet school and your mum's working nights to, to
pay for these classes.
S2 (11:55):
It became a big thing within like months. Yeah. I,
um I had a teacher. I, I don't know exactly
why I loved it so much. I think, you know,
because how I think about it now is, is different
to how I was when I was 11. But I
think there was something about the that sort of, you know,
pursuit of maybe perfection. And I liked how focused, you know,
(12:19):
one needed to be. And, and I was a very
sort of serious kid and I took things really seriously.
And ballet sort of seemed to lend itself to that.
And I think also too, it helps that if you're
if you have a bit of natural talent for something
and or you have a teacher that's encouraging you and saying, hey,
you're great at this. Like that's good at any age.
(12:40):
I think when you're a kid, it's like, oh, am
I do I can I like yeah. And and so
yeah it got sort of started pretty quick and yeah,
within six months the my teachers were like, if you
want to do this like you can and but if
you know you need proper or full time training and
(13:02):
you should consider auditioning for, for these schools. And there
was schools in Melbourne, the Australian Ballet School, which I
ended up going to, or the Victorian College of the
Arts secondary School. And so I auditioned for for the
both of them. And the plan was to go to
the College of the Arts because you could do your
high schooling, your academic work there as well, and other
styles of dance. Yeah. And that just seemed like a
(13:25):
kind of more well-rounded option. So I went to my teacher,
convinced me to do the Australian Ballet School audition as
a sort of like audition for the audition. Like a
practice audition? Sure. Yeah. Um, and I went down there
and I remember as soon as I walked in, I
was like, yeah, no, this is the place. Yeah, I
just sort of felt it. And and I got in.
I was accepted into both schools. And then I remember like,
(13:49):
still the plan was to go to the College of
the Arts, but I had this, like, like feeling in
my stomach. I was like, no, it's not right. And
then I think when both the letters came, mum was like,
which one do you want to go to? And I
was like, I want to go to Australian Ballet school. Yeah.
And so we ended up going with that. And that meant,
you know, the next year started year seven. I would
do a few hours of school at Saint Pat's in
(14:11):
Ballarat till midday leave. Get on the train, go down
and do three hours of ballet each night. I did
that for a year and then the next year I
went into full time training, so I'd get up at 530,
be on the train by 630, catch the train down
to Melbourne and then do ballet and school all day and. Yeah.
(14:31):
And so I did that for until I was almost 15.
And then I moved down to Melbourne.
S1 (14:35):
Mhm.
S2 (14:35):
Mhm.
S1 (14:36):
Full on. Yeah. Okay. What would the boys at Saint
Pat's like. That's a famous football school. Yeah. Kind of
production line for AFL players. I mean you mentioned you
(14:59):
didn't have it really hard as a kid, but, um. Yeah.
How did they react to a gun? Ballet dancer in
their midst?
S2 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean, I, I was pretty apprehensive and pretty
pretty scared to be going to Saint Pat's. And it's
a pretty bold choice, I think, to be, like to
be sending your son there when they're, you know, um,
all boys school, as you said, which has such a
reputation for producing great AFL players. And I was like
(15:26):
the one ballet dancer in the school and but they
were everyone was great, really supportive. And I think, though,
that the school was was already aware, like prior to
me coming, that it could be it very well may
be disastrous for me is okay. And so I think
the head of year seven, I think spoke to all
(15:49):
the year seven students, like maybe before I arrived, maybe
I was at like a something down in Melbourne for
the ballet. And they said, I think he said like, um,
you know, we have this student coming who's and kind
of just said, you know, um, has a lot of
talent and a lot of potential and it's ballet. And
I think he basically said, don't give him a hard time. Nice.
(16:09):
And then I think no one did. No one gave
me a hard time that simple principles.
S1 (16:14):
If you're out there listening. Yeah.
S2 (16:16):
I think like apparently.
S1 (16:19):
I.
S2 (16:19):
Think they, they, um, they were like, oh, you know,
this person is leaving school each day at midday. That's cool. Like,
I think every year seven student wants to leave at lunchtime,
you know. So she's like, oh, to to follow this
talent and that, that he has. So maybe they I
don't know, maybe I got it off easy because it
was like aspiring to something, which is great, but also
(16:42):
sometimes feels like a bit of a cop out because
it's like, oh, well, would it have been different if
I was just if I did ballet as a hobby,
as in after school in Ballarat, you know, but we
can't know. So yeah, I was, I was lucky, I
was very lucky.
S1 (16:55):
You eventually graduated dux with honours. But I understand your
father passed away that final year in ballet school when
you were just 18. Is that right? Um, can you
tell us a little bit about him and sort of
the impact of of that?
S2 (17:12):
Yeah, yeah. My dad passed away in my final year
at the ballet school, um, in that first term holiday break. Um,
and yeah, it was my final year. And the final
year of ballet school is like, it's kind of like
a long audition for to join the Australian Ballet, or
to prepare yourself to go out to the world and
(17:32):
find a find a job in a ballet company. And
I had some big roles coming up. And I came
home one evening and he had a, um, an aneurysm,
a brain aneurysm, very out of out of the blue
and passed away. And he was a very it was
a shock because he was I mean, he hadn't really
(17:53):
had any health scares. It was very out of the blue.
What did he do? He was I mean, he did
lots of things. Um, when I was growing up, he was, um,
a bricklayer. And then he was in the army. And
then after the army, I believe he went back to bricklaying.
(18:14):
And then I think at the time, though, when he
when I was a bit older, when he passed away,
he was my, my uncle operates a safety eyewear manufacturing
business and my dad was managing the, the warehouse. Yeah.
So not dancing. He didn't dance. I was gonna say.
S1 (18:32):
A brickie and a grunt. And he was encouraging of
his ballet dancing son.
S2 (18:37):
I take it. Yeah. Yeah. He was. He was very musical.
He loved music. Okay. Um. And he had a beautiful
singing voice, and he could play guitar, and he. That
was a real, uh, passion of his. Um, so I
think he was always very encouraging of my, you know,
my brother and I to pursue whatever it was that
(18:58):
we were interested in or passionate about. Yeah. Because maybe
he had his passion and interest, but the jobs didn't
necessarily reflect that. Yeah. Yeah. So whenever it was like,
you know, if you want to do ballet, great. Do ballet. Like,
if you want to play footy, great. Play footy. And
as soon as you don't want to play, don't play.
Like which was very freeing. And you know, I can
(19:22):
reflect on that and see how lucky I was. But
I had the good mix of it with mum because
mum was very much like the, um, you know, consistent, stoic,
hard worker. You know, she was a nurse, as you said.
She worked night shifts for me to, like, go through
the extra dance lessons I needed. So she was like
preaching of work ethic. And so, you know, sometimes dad
(19:44):
would be like, you don't want to do your homework.
Don't do it. Don't worry about it. And she'd be like,
do your bloody homework. Like, so we had, you know,
the angel and the devil. But yeah. No. Um, finally,
your ballet school dad passed away. Um, was a real curveball.
Sort of knocked the whole family out, but maybe is
(20:07):
selfishly the wrong word. Like, I think pretty, pretty selfishly,
I was like, wow, this has happened, but I can't.
I'm not going to let it derail what I've put in,
you know, the last five, six years of work for.
And I remember just thinking, like, you know, I'm going
to get through this, but I'm I'm not going to
(20:31):
leave my, my, my studies and my goals. And if anything,
I'm going to try and use it as a further
propulsion to, to try and achieve those dreams. And so
which is kind of what I did, I just got
back to school like a week later and just buckled
down and just like worked, worked, worked, which I think
(20:54):
at that age people go like, wow. Like that's, you know, amazing.
That's so brave. And and I guess it was. But
at the same time, like, I, I think I just
really put it away and didn't really address it too well.
And then until like, you know, years later. But I
think that's just how blinding my ambition was. And to
(21:19):
sort of to get on, to get on with it
and to really like, you know, I remember thinking like,
you know, I'm going to get you know, I think
I said it to my dad actually wasn't exactly conscious,
but when he was in the hospital and I remember saying, like,
like promising, I was like, I'm going to do it.
I'm going to get I'm going to become a dancer
and ballet, and I'm going to get to principal. I'm
(21:39):
going to do it. And I think almost saying that
out loud, it sounds kind of crazy and a bit
insane now, but I think it really helped me like,
I don't know, stick to my guns and try and
pursue it.
S1 (21:50):
Yeah. And you did exactly that. You you became a
full time dancer the following year in 2015. Give us
a sense of what that's like. Again, I think I
read that your schedule can include like 12 hours of class,
20 hours of rehearsal, ten hours at the gym every week. Like,
is that is that about right?
S2 (22:09):
Yeah. I mean, you know, we start ballet class at 1030,
so it's a pretty late start considering, you know, most
jobs start at nine, but people are usually, you know,
in the gym for an hour before ballet class. So
they're getting in there extra and everyone's different. You know,
some people like to do strength training and people like
to do cardio, some Pilates, some yoga. And it really,
(22:32):
you know, for me, it sort of varied over the
years depending on what roles are coming up or what
I want to improve on. Or some days I've, you know,
just fallen off the wagon and not done any gym. But,
you know, at the moment, my schedule, for example, is
I like to be in the gym an hour before class,
you know, sorting out the sore parts of my body and, um,
you know, strengthening certain parts that I think will will
(22:52):
benefit in the upcoming shows. And then from midday after
ballet class, we rehearse for from 12 to 630 with
an hour lunch break in the middle and then two
15 minute breaks, like kind of in between. So it's
not much break time, but um, and rehearsals are just like,
full on, you know, um, you're learning the material of
(23:13):
the upcoming shows, and then as you get closer to
the shows, you're just you're running it, you're running scenes,
you're running specific dances, and it's a mix of solo
work and partnering work and group work. And yeah, so
it's it's it's physical, but it's also like a brain
workout as well. Like sometimes when it gets to that
5:00 moment, even if you're not physically exhausted, your brain's like,
(23:37):
I can't retain any more choreography. I can't learn any
more steps.
S1 (23:40):
Um, yeah. The juice is gone.
S2 (23:42):
Yeah, everything's gone. And you're hoping for, like, a 15
minute break so you can have a snack and just, like,
lay down. And then at the moment, because the show
opens so soon, I find myself, even after rehearsals, going
back into the gym, sometimes after 630, to kind of
tick off some of the exercises I may have missed
in the morning. And, you know, do something for my
knees if they're sore or my back. And. Yeah. So it's, uh, yeah, long,
(24:04):
long and full days play through pain. Yeah. Through injury.
We love it.
S1 (24:08):
We mentioned pressure in the and the mental pain. And again,
I've heard you speak before about an experience playing Romeo um,
a role that you'd had dreamed about yet kind of
finding yourself in in tears. So was this in the
middle of a performance or you had just just finished?
But whatever it was, it spurred you to start working
(24:29):
with a psychologist after that. Can you tell us about
that moment and what you got out of working with
a professional?
S2 (24:34):
Yeah, I'd just been I'd been promoted to principal artist,
say six months before that moment. And I felt like
in those first six months I was like riding high
on the on the success and like, you know, the achievement.
And I was like, oh, this is great. Everything's great,
I feel good, I feel confident. And then I got
to this ballet, Romeo and Juliet, um, which I had
(24:57):
been dreaming of dancing since I was about 15 or 16.
And yeah, as I've said before, I just hated it.
I got out there and I was I hated it
because I wasn't dancing at how I wanted to dance it. Right? Um,
it wasn't that like, oh, I realized I don't like
this ballet. I still loved the ballet, but I couldn't
(25:19):
take the pressure that I was ultimately putting on myself.
You know, I was the newest principal in the company.
I was doing opening night. Um, and I just felt
like the nerves got to me, and I was. I
wasn't delivering what I'd been rehearsing, and it was just
my brain getting in the way, you know? Because sometimes
you can go out there and you can fumble a
(25:41):
step and it's like, oh, that's fine. I fumbled a
step like, but I know what happened. But it's it
gets scary when you get out there and you start
and things start going wrong and you don't know why
they're going wrong, because you can't pinpoint what you did
physically differently. It's just your brain and your nerves are
creating tension. Or in my case, like I in in
(26:04):
for those shows, I was sort of freezing up in
a way. And and yeah, it just I, it just
sort of snowballed Bold, and I'm sure it felt worse
than it actually ever looked, you know? But it just
made me so fearful of going out on stage and
doing this role. And yeah, as it got to the
end of I did like two seasons, I did Melbourne
(26:25):
and Sydney and it got to the second last show
in Sydney, and it was just like, it's like I'd
reached like a breaking point and I was just in tears,
bawling my eyes out after the show in my dressing
room and my director, who was and was shocked, my
director was shocked. He was like, I can't what? Like
he didn't know why I was so upset because I
think to him it was like, yeah, you're having a
(26:45):
couple of technical difficulties, but it's okay. And I was like, no,
it's like I was like, please, like pull me off
the stage. Like, I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah.
And and then yeah, the following year I came back
and we'd had like a few months off of performing
and I was doing another show, and I kind of
had forgotten about that experience. You know, I hadn't necessarily
addressed it. I'd just forgotten about it. And then it
(27:06):
was like feeling good in rehearsals. And I got out
for the first show, um, in Don Quixote, doing Espada
and I had to do a similar step to the
ones that I was struggling with, and I just got
back into that same place. I just freaked out and
I was like, fuck! And I remember for the rest
of that season, I was just I went from suddenly
(27:27):
being calm as I was like the week before in
the rehearsal period, to just like that same nervous tension
that I'd had during Romeo. And I remember thinking like,
at that stage I was 27, 26, 27. And I
was like, if this is what it's going to be
like for the next ten years of my career, like,
I can't do it. Like, I just yeah, it's too
(27:50):
hard and the reward isn't enough. Like, so I need
to try and find some strategies and some techniques to
actually get through it. And so I started seeing a
psychologist who the Australian Ballet found for me, and it
completely changed everything. Just when you can explain to someone
you know, be it performance related or any other parts
of your life. You know, I see a different therapist
(28:12):
now for, you know, it's not that I've got separate
therapists for separate things, but I'm seeing a different therapist now.
But like in that stage, it was the first time
I'd really seen a therapist, and it was strictly about
what I was feeling at work, you know, even though
it's all connected. But just to be able to say
to someone what you're feeling and experiencing and then have
have her turn to me and be like, yeah, of
course you're feeling this because like when you're in this
(28:33):
situation and you're on stage and it's like it's extremely
validating to be like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm not crazy
or I'm not weak. And from that, you know, we
just worked on like actual tangible strategies that began to
really help me. And they did. They just completely it
took a little while over time, because I think that
experience of being on stage and feeling that was quite
(28:55):
it did have quite an effect on me. But yeah,
I just the techniques that I learned and, you know,
still learning just completely changed how I went out on
stage and, and performed. And yeah, it was the best
thing I could have done because, like I used to
fantasize about, like, quitting and like, working an office job,
and which I don't think I would have lasted, but
(29:15):
I was literally would say to my friends, like, maybe
I should just do like a regular 9 to 5
and and and quit it all because I yeah, it
was that wow that scary and that, um, uncomfortable, full on.
S1 (29:29):
Okay. From, um, the brutal to the beautiful. My wife
adores the elegance of the ballet. She's an American, grew
up in a country town like, way north of Manhattan.
And the New York City Ballet used to come up
there and do a kind of residence. Yeah. Wow. In
this country town, in a beautiful grassy amphitheater. She likes
to say that the pitter patter of feet when the
(29:50):
dancers are out on stage is like her favorite sound
in the world. Oh, I love that. What moment do
you kind of most adore when you're out on stage dancing? Like,
what is it about, um, being on that floor, um,
being in a flow state that appeals to you. Mhm.
S2 (30:08):
Oh wow. That's a great question. Um, I've always been
envious of people who or dancers who say like, oh,
you know, when I'm dancing on stage by myself, I
get totally lost in the moment because I don't know
if I necessarily feel that, um, you have to be
perfectly honest with you.
S1 (30:27):
Um, so what? It's more technical.
S2 (30:30):
Well, it's like, I'm just like, I'm thinking a lot,
you know, like. And I'm jealous of people who are like, yeah,
I wasn't thinking about anything. And like, um, but there
is like. So it's difficult to say what my favorite
moments are, but there's definitely a I can think of
some like, I remember when I did my first show
of Nijinsky because it was such, you know, I was 21.
(30:52):
I was, you know, in the corps de ballet. I
was like a last minute kind of call in for
the show, in a way. And it was so overwhelming.
And I remember there's a moment towards the end of
the ballet before we do one last solo, and I'm
just sitting on this chair, and I remember looking up
(31:13):
and seeing the, like, this row of lights, you know,
the stage lights. And that was a moment where I felt, like,
incredibly present. And I remember thinking about my dad actually,
on that in that moment. And, you know, for whatever reason,
you know, and and so that's always stuck with me.
And so it's moments like that that I and they're
(31:36):
rarely that I'm dancing because usually when I'm dancing I'm
thinking too much or I'm, I'm, I'm seeing where I
am in the space or I'm probably already scared that
some steps are going to go wrong or something. But
so the moments that I really enjoy on stage, on
stage are when you're out there and you're able to
be on the stage and standing there and, you know,
(31:57):
in front of thousands of people, but not doing much.
So which might sound like an easy cop out, but it's.
That's when it feels, like, quite powerful and you know,
and be it, if you're in a character or, you know,
that's when I feel really present and like, um, that
I'm sort of maybe I'm not commanding something, but yeah,
(32:20):
it does feel very empowering. And so, yeah, it's always
the quiet moments, be it sitting in a chair or,
or just walking across a stage or you're.
S1 (32:29):
Stopping to smell the roses. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2 (32:32):
That's that's when I feel. Yeah. Really, really in the moment.
S1 (32:36):
Wonderful. I'm wondering now about the lifespan of a ballet dancer,
because I've got no idea. You're 29. How much longer
can you do what you do.
S2 (32:45):
Mate? It's running out. Um, I think it's different for everyone,
but I'd say probably on average, like mid to late 30s. So,
you know, some dancers dance to their early 40s. Um,
I think it's a mix of like how long the
body can hold out, how long the passion holds out,
(33:06):
or another passion takes over or, you know, um.
S1 (33:11):
How's the body? How's the body is okay.
S2 (33:14):
Um, I, you know, we're about to open nezhinski, and, um,
so I'm covered in bruises because it's one of those
very physical ones. But for the most part, I've been
really lucky, like in terms of injuries. I've had little
injuries along the way, but nothing too serious to keep
me out for a long time. Um, yeah. So I'm
(33:35):
almost 30, which means that I should probably start to
think about what I'm going to do next, and I
have no idea. And so if you've got any ideas,
you can let me know, because I reckon, I think
I've probably got another maybe 6 or 7 years left. Left.
S1 (33:53):
I was going to ask you what, uh, what was next?
Do you see yourself as an artistic director, as a choreographer,
as is a teacher like or something altogether different? Do
you get out of ballet and into a different kind
of dance?
S2 (34:06):
I don't know, like I, I don't I'm not a
choreographer because I think I think that's a I mean,
like a lot of things, I think, I think choreography
is a real calling. And, you know, I haven't necessarily
had that desire or that, you know, um, inspiration to
start creating. Um, I mean, sometimes, like when I was younger,
(34:27):
the idea of being an artistic director seemed amazing. Um,
but as I've gotten older and seen more about the job, like,
it's a, it's a really bloody hard job. Of course
it is. And, you know, so sometimes I'm like, oh,
maybe when I'm finished dancing, maybe I'd like to do
something different. Separate to the to the world I've lived
(34:49):
in since I was 12, you know, because that's another
crazy thing. Like I've it's really all, you know, I
consider myself I try to be a well-rounded person, but like,
it's I've. I've literally been in the same building since
I was 12 years old. The Australian Ballet School is
down the hall from the Australian Ballet Company, and I
started going there when I was 12, in 2008. And
(35:12):
now I'm, you know, I'm 29.
S1 (35:14):
You're institutionalised.
S2 (35:15):
I'm institutionalised. I'm well and truly institutionalised. So then that's
when I'm like, you know, if I was to continue
on in a different role after being a dancer, like
I could be in that same building for like 50 years,
and that seems crazy.
S1 (35:32):
Or a life well spent.
S2 (35:33):
Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'll get like a plaque or something
in the building, but yeah, I don't know. I really,
I oscillate between being like, oh, do I want to
stay in the arts or do I want to do
something different? I'm not sure it's all up in the air.
So yeah, I'm taking as many suggestions as possible.
S1 (35:47):
Fantastic. Maybe our listeners will have some for us. In
the meantime, thank you very much for joining us. Callum.
It was a pleasure to chat to you.
S2 (35:54):
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.
S1 (35:57):
That was Callum Linnane, principal dancer for the Australian Ballet.
In conversation with Good Weekend senior writer Conrad Marshall for
the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode,
please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get
your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations.
Coming soon! We chat with American journalist and podcaster Kara
(36:19):
Swisher about tech bros and Trump, and where she finds
solace and hope in troubled times. Good Weekend Talks is
brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The
Age proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(36:42):
by Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is head of audio. And Katrina Strickland is the editor.
UU (36:51):
Of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks,
a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating
people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.
Every week, you can download new episodes in which top
journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about
(00:28):
the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we
speak with Callum Linnane, the principal dancer for the Australian Ballet. Linnane, 29,
has been dancing since he was first enrolled in tap
lessons as a seven year old in regional Victoria. Now
he's the star of the show, the kind of person
who does magazine spreads and launches spring fashion campaigns on
(00:50):
his social media. Followers have described him as everything from
Australia's answer to Rudolf Nureyev to a young David Bowie.
But really, he's just a boy from Ballarat who's made
it big on the stage and is about to play
the titular role in Nijinsky. The latest offering from the
Australian Ballet. Welcome, Callum.
S2 (01:08):
Wow, what an intro. Thanks for having me like that.
That was great. We're happy to have you here.
S1 (01:15):
Now, I've been to the ballet a few times, but
I'm no expert, and I suspect many of our listeners
probably fall into that same boat. So, first of all,
what does it mean to be the principal artist beyond
kind of the car parking space and the the Qantas
Club membership?
S2 (01:29):
Oh my gosh, you have done your research. Well, yeah,
they're the best perks. Um, well, I mean, it's probably
I need to try and describe it, like, separate to
my own dreams and what it meant to me because,
you know, it's all I wanted to be ever since
I was 13. But you join a ballet company or
most ballet companies, um, in everything separated into rank. So
(01:49):
you join usually as an 18 or 19 year old
in the corps de ballet. Um, the Australian Ballet has
five ranks. Most ballet companies kind of have around the
same and throughout, I suppose, years of hard work and
getting opportunities and strokes of luck and good casting opportunities
and whatnot. Um, you know, you I would say most
(02:10):
dancers try to climb the ranks to become principal. And yeah,
I suppose it means you are a leader of the company.
You you tend to do the, the featured work, you know.
So I suppose the pressure's on and whatnot, but yeah,
it's like, I guess it's the kind of top pinnacle
of the of the ballet company.
S1 (02:29):
We'll get to that pressure in a minute. Yeah, definitely
want to.
S2 (02:32):
Talk about that.
S1 (02:33):
We're here though, in part because of that upcoming production
of Nijinsky, which is Feb 21 to March 1st at
the Regent Theatre in Melbourne and then April 4 to
22 at the opera House in Sydney. But you've played
this role before, right back in 2016. I understand it
was one of your earliest principal roles, and I read
that you were kind of terrified to step onto that
(02:55):
stage at the time. Can you take us back to
that moment and why you were so scared?
S2 (03:00):
Yeah, it was, um. So Nijinsky, uh, by John Neumeier.
It was the first full length principal role that I
was given, um, full length, meaning like an entire evening work.
That year I was in my second year in the
in the ballet company, and I'd done some featured roles,
but this was the first, like, you're doing the lead
(03:20):
role of an entire, uh, you know, two act ballet.
So it was obviously very exciting. But, um, you know,
a big opportunity came with lots of lots of stress.
And yeah, I remember the first show I wasn't necessarily
supposed to go on for the Melbourne season. I was
going to go on later in the year, um, in Sydney.
And one of the other guys who was cast for
(03:42):
Nijinsky broke his rib in. He broke his rib before
the show on the Wednesday and pushed through and did
the show. Wow. Um, and then so that was a Wednesday.
And then on Thursday, I got the tap and it
was like, you're you need to go on.
S1 (03:57):
Oh my God.
S2 (03:58):
On Saturday. Yeah. So I rehearsed that night and then
the next day did costume fittings. And then I was
on on Saturday matinee and I was obviously excited. But yeah,
you're right, I was terrified. And I remember I had
a bunch of family came to the show on the
Saturday and the ballet opens, um, in, in kind of
(04:21):
more theatrical way, when audience members come in to the auditorium,
the curtain's already up, and what they see is like
a ballroom on stage. And then Nijinsky's entrance. He's sort
of wrapped in a big cloak, and I remember just
telling myself, like, to try and calm down because I
could see, like, I could see the cloak actually shaking.
(04:41):
I was that nervous. Yeah. And I had to walk
down this, like small flight of stairs. And my goal
was just to get to the bottom of the stairs
without falling over. So, yeah, I was just sweating bullets. Um,
but then it turned out to be a great, great show.
And it was a really great experience and opportunity for me.
S1 (04:58):
Excellent. So Vaslav Nijinsky is, of course, a kind of
beloved and tragic figure in ballet. Um, what can you
tell listeners about him as a kind of person and
performer and what you need to convey about him on
stage through through dance?
S2 (05:12):
Well, I think what's so interesting about him as a,
as a character to play is that there's no actual
footage of him dancing. So it's all kind of based
on people's accounts of having watched him. Um, and, you know,
it sounds like and I do believe that he really
was like the first great male ballet superstar, but because
there's no footage, I think it lends itself to a
(05:33):
sort of myth about him. Um, and I think what's
interesting about him is that as a performer, apparently he
was just completely transformative and in a vast array of, um,
very different characters. You know, he's famous for playing like
the poet in Les La Sylphide, The spirit of the Rose,
The Golden Slave, the Faun in afternoon of a Faun.
(05:56):
Lots of very different characters, but he would really become those,
those those people, you know, some of them aren't people
on stage. And I think as a person separately to that,
he was very, um, I mean, it's tricky to describe very,
very intelligent, but I think very, um, socially kind of
(06:16):
naive and simple. And so I think there's these two
kind of, um, contrasts is that the person on stage
was very, very alive and um, and would transform. But
then him as a, as a man, as a person was. Yeah.
Sort of very, very pure, naive. Um, not exactly the
(06:37):
charismatic man about town. That would sort of happen on stage,
but yeah. So these two kind of polar opposites. And
he was an undiagnosed schizophrenic. Yeah. And then as we yeah,
as we, as he got later into life. Um, actually,
when he was, like late 20s. Yeah, he was he
was diagnosed schizophrenic. Um, in, in Switzerland. Yeah. Which is just,
(06:59):
I mean, tragic, you know, he was this really was
this sort of tortured artist. And, um. Yeah, he gave
his final performance when he was 29 years old and
and then spent the next 30 years of his life
in institutions. Yeah. So it really was a real fall.
A real fall from grace. But yeah, I mean, it
lends itself to to a really interesting and, um, deep
(07:22):
character to, to play on stage.
S1 (07:25):
Okay. That's his backstory. Let's, let's zoom back into to yours. Now,
you were a sporty kid, but started dancing when you
were seven. How did that happen? How did you get enrolled?
S2 (07:35):
I always, without really realizing it, I liked dancing, and
I think I was at a natural knack for dancing.
And it was. Michael Jackson was the instigator. Like, I
think there was a TV special on, and I was
sort of just transfixed to the television, and I think
dad recorded it. And so I would watch it over
and over because I remember I still remember just watching
(07:56):
how this guy could dance. And, and so I sort
of started to try and learn and copy the moves.
And I think Mum and Dad were like, oh, wow, okay,
Cal can can move. And then a teacher at school when,
you know, you must do like end of year kind
of school concerts. Sure. And you learn really basic choreography.
I think that teacher was like, oh, you know, your
(08:17):
son can dance and you should put him in dance lessons.
And so mum enrolled me in tap lessons and I
was furious. I did not want to do dancing, you know,
I had my I had my, my idea of who
I was and, and that was going against that. And
I think I was just like a, I was worried
about being bullied at school and, but mum convinced me
(08:40):
do a year and then you can stop and then
you've tried it? Sure. So I did a year, and
I was okay with it. It wasn't like I loved it.
And then. But it was at the end of that
year that I was on stage for the first time,
and it just, like, completely hooked me. Wow.
S1 (08:58):
What was it about being on stage?
S2 (09:00):
I just remember, I mean, it's hard to it's hard
to put into words. It's just like a real, uh,
feeling or like, I don't know, something chemical. I'm not sure.
But I remember being in the wings waiting before our
entrance to go on, and I was just so excited. Yeah.
And and it was such a rush. And then we
did the show and everything around it to, like, I
(09:21):
remember just the environment of being around your friends, like,
backstage and how fun and exciting that was. And that's
still the case. Like, you know, we do these amazing,
great scary things on stage. But, you know, I dance
in the Australian Ballet with people I've been at school
with since I was 12. So it's like, you know,
(09:41):
my best friends and my family, and I think it's
the same of when I was seven. It was like,
you know, the excitement and the nerves of being on
stage and dancing, but also just like hanging out with
your friends. Right? And, and you get such a high
from it. And I remember after the show mum coming
backstage and was like, great, you know, you've done your year.
And I was like, and I want to come back
(10:03):
next year. And it just sort of kept rolling from there.
S1 (10:06):
And you did as you say. You started with tap
and then you did things like modern dance, hip hop.
But there was this point where kind of ballet was
a bridge too far, right? You're like, I can't make
that step. Yeah, not not doing that.
S2 (10:19):
Yeah. I had this idea in my head like that.
I'd be wearing like, a tutu or something if they
enrolled me in ballet, and it just seemed like a
step too far at that at that age for me,
you know? Yeah, I was 11, I think. And, you know,
I was in Ballarat and it just, I don't know,
it was just it seemed quite scary to me.
S1 (10:37):
Country town.
S2 (10:38):
Yeah. Yeah. Even though I was pretty lucky, like I
never got. I never copped anything for, you know, for dancing.
And so many people I work with now had it
really rough. Yeah. Growing up doing dance no matter what
city they were in. And. Yeah, so I was like, okay,
everything but ballet. And then my teachers were like, you know,
(11:00):
you really should do ballet. Like, it'll it's it's good
to have a technique. It'll help everything else. And, and
I was really against it. And then I actually only
found this out recently that my, um, eldest brother was
the one, I think, who had a lot of convincing
on me because he was just like. How? Like they're
offering you, like, free lessons for six months. Like, just
try it, just try it, and then you can say
(11:21):
you tried it. And then and I was like, okay,
maybe hearing my older brothers, you know, kind of be
encouraging about it. Um, and so I tried it and
then I was hooked. Yeah. Loved it. Yeah. Loved it.
S1 (11:33):
And we're all the better for it. Um, how how
quickly did it become a sort of a massive commitment
in your life. Like I understand as a by the
time you were 12, you were sort of catching a train,
a v-line train by yourself to Melbourne to to go
to ballet school and your mum's working nights to, to
pay for these classes.
S2 (11:55):
It became a big thing within like months. Yeah. I,
um I had a teacher. I, I don't know exactly
why I loved it so much. I think, you know,
because how I think about it now is, is different
to how I was when I was 11. But I
think there was something about the that sort of, you know,
pursuit of maybe perfection. And I liked how focused, you know,
(12:19):
one needed to be. And, and I was a very
sort of serious kid and I took things really seriously.
And ballet sort of seemed to lend itself to that.
And I think also too, it helps that if you're
if you have a bit of natural talent for something
and or you have a teacher that's encouraging you and saying, hey,
you're great at this. Like that's good at any age.
(12:40):
I think when you're a kid, it's like, oh, am
I do I can I like yeah. And and so
yeah it got sort of started pretty quick and yeah,
within six months the my teachers were like, if you
want to do this like you can and but if
you know you need proper or full time training and
(13:02):
you should consider auditioning for, for these schools. And there
was schools in Melbourne, the Australian Ballet School, which I
ended up going to, or the Victorian College of the
Arts secondary School. And so I auditioned for for the
both of them. And the plan was to go to
the College of the Arts because you could do your
high schooling, your academic work there as well, and other
styles of dance. Yeah. And that just seemed like a
(13:25):
kind of more well-rounded option. So I went to my teacher,
convinced me to do the Australian Ballet School audition as
a sort of like audition for the audition. Like a
practice audition? Sure. Yeah. Um, and I went down there
and I remember as soon as I walked in, I
was like, yeah, no, this is the place. Yeah, I
just sort of felt it. And and I got in.
I was accepted into both schools. And then I remember like,
(13:49):
still the plan was to go to the College of
the Arts, but I had this, like, like feeling in
my stomach. I was like, no, it's not right. And
then I think when both the letters came, mum was like,
which one do you want to go to? And I
was like, I want to go to Australian Ballet school. Yeah.
And so we ended up going with that. And that meant,
you know, the next year started year seven. I would
do a few hours of school at Saint Pat's in
(14:11):
Ballarat till midday leave. Get on the train, go down
and do three hours of ballet each night. I did
that for a year and then the next year I
went into full time training, so I'd get up at 530,
be on the train by 630, catch the train down
to Melbourne and then do ballet and school all day and. Yeah.
(14:31):
And so I did that for until I was almost 15.
And then I moved down to Melbourne.
S1 (14:35):
Mhm.
S2 (14:35):
Mhm.
S1 (14:36):
Full on. Yeah. Okay. What would the boys at Saint
Pat's like. That's a famous football school. Yeah. Kind of
production line for AFL players. I mean you mentioned you
(14:59):
didn't have it really hard as a kid, but, um. Yeah.
How did they react to a gun? Ballet dancer in
their midst?
S2 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean, I, I was pretty apprehensive and pretty
pretty scared to be going to Saint Pat's. And it's
a pretty bold choice, I think, to be, like to
be sending your son there when they're, you know, um,
all boys school, as you said, which has such a
reputation for producing great AFL players. And I was like
(15:26):
the one ballet dancer in the school and but they
were everyone was great, really supportive. And I think, though,
that the school was was already aware, like prior to
me coming, that it could be it very well may
be disastrous for me is okay. And so I think
the head of year seven, I think spoke to all
(15:49):
the year seven students, like maybe before I arrived, maybe
I was at like a something down in Melbourne for
the ballet. And they said, I think he said like, um,
you know, we have this student coming who's and kind
of just said, you know, um, has a lot of
talent and a lot of potential and it's ballet. And
I think he basically said, don't give him a hard time. Nice.
(16:09):
And then I think no one did. No one gave
me a hard time that simple principles.
S1 (16:14):
If you're out there listening. Yeah.
S2 (16:16):
I think like apparently.
S1 (16:19):
I.
S2 (16:19):
Think they, they, um, they were like, oh, you know,
this person is leaving school each day at midday. That's cool. Like,
I think every year seven student wants to leave at lunchtime,
you know. So she's like, oh, to to follow this
talent and that, that he has. So maybe they I
don't know, maybe I got it off easy because it
was like aspiring to something, which is great, but also
(16:42):
sometimes feels like a bit of a cop out because
it's like, oh, well, would it have been different if
I was just if I did ballet as a hobby,
as in after school in Ballarat, you know, but we
can't know. So yeah, I was, I was lucky, I
was very lucky.
S1 (16:55):
You eventually graduated dux with honours. But I understand your
father passed away that final year in ballet school when
you were just 18. Is that right? Um, can you
tell us a little bit about him and sort of
the impact of of that?
S2 (17:12):
Yeah, yeah. My dad passed away in my final year
at the ballet school, um, in that first term holiday break. Um,
and yeah, it was my final year. And the final
year of ballet school is like, it's kind of like
a long audition for to join the Australian Ballet, or
to prepare yourself to go out to the world and
(17:32):
find a find a job in a ballet company. And
I had some big roles coming up. And I came
home one evening and he had a, um, an aneurysm,
a brain aneurysm, very out of out of the blue
and passed away. And he was a very it was
a shock because he was I mean, he hadn't really
(17:53):
had any health scares. It was very out of the blue.
What did he do? He was I mean, he did
lots of things. Um, when I was growing up, he was, um,
a bricklayer. And then he was in the army. And
then after the army, I believe he went back to bricklaying.
(18:14):
And then I think at the time, though, when he
when I was a bit older, when he passed away,
he was my, my uncle operates a safety eyewear manufacturing
business and my dad was managing the, the warehouse. Yeah.
So not dancing. He didn't dance. I was gonna say.
S1 (18:32):
A brickie and a grunt. And he was encouraging of
his ballet dancing son.
S2 (18:37):
I take it. Yeah. Yeah. He was. He was very musical.
He loved music. Okay. Um. And he had a beautiful
singing voice, and he could play guitar, and he. That
was a real, uh, passion of his. Um, so I
think he was always very encouraging of my, you know,
my brother and I to pursue whatever it was that
(18:58):
we were interested in or passionate about. Yeah. Because maybe
he had his passion and interest, but the jobs didn't
necessarily reflect that. Yeah. Yeah. So whenever it was like,
you know, if you want to do ballet, great. Do ballet. Like,
if you want to play footy, great. Play footy. And
as soon as you don't want to play, don't play.
Like which was very freeing. And you know, I can
(19:22):
reflect on that and see how lucky I was. But
I had the good mix of it with mum because
mum was very much like the, um, you know, consistent, stoic,
hard worker. You know, she was a nurse, as you said.
She worked night shifts for me to, like, go through
the extra dance lessons I needed. So she was like
preaching of work ethic. And so, you know, sometimes dad
(19:44):
would be like, you don't want to do your homework.
Don't do it. Don't worry about it. And she'd be like,
do your bloody homework. Like, so we had, you know,
the angel and the devil. But yeah. No. Um, finally,
your ballet school dad passed away. Um, was a real curveball.
Sort of knocked the whole family out, but maybe is
(20:07):
selfishly the wrong word. Like, I think pretty, pretty selfishly,
I was like, wow, this has happened, but I can't.
I'm not going to let it derail what I've put in,
you know, the last five, six years of work for.
And I remember just thinking, like, you know, I'm going
to get through this, but I'm I'm not going to
(20:31):
leave my, my, my studies and my goals. And if anything,
I'm going to try and use it as a further
propulsion to, to try and achieve those dreams. And so
which is kind of what I did, I just got
back to school like a week later and just buckled
down and just like worked, worked, worked, which I think
(20:54):
at that age people go like, wow. Like that's, you know, amazing.
That's so brave. And and I guess it was. But
at the same time, like, I, I think I just
really put it away and didn't really address it too well.
And then until like, you know, years later. But I
think that's just how blinding my ambition was. And to
(21:19):
sort of to get on, to get on with it
and to really like, you know, I remember thinking like,
you know, I'm going to get you know, I think
I said it to my dad actually wasn't exactly conscious,
but when he was in the hospital and I remember saying, like,
like promising, I was like, I'm going to do it.
I'm going to get I'm going to become a dancer
and ballet, and I'm going to get to principal. I'm
(21:39):
going to do it. And I think almost saying that
out loud, it sounds kind of crazy and a bit
insane now, but I think it really helped me like,
I don't know, stick to my guns and try and
pursue it.
S1 (21:50):
Yeah. And you did exactly that. You you became a
full time dancer the following year in 2015. Give us
a sense of what that's like. Again, I think I
read that your schedule can include like 12 hours of class,
20 hours of rehearsal, ten hours at the gym every week. Like,
is that is that about right?
S2 (22:09):
Yeah. I mean, you know, we start ballet class at 1030,
so it's a pretty late start considering, you know, most
jobs start at nine, but people are usually, you know,
in the gym for an hour before ballet class. So
they're getting in there extra and everyone's different. You know,
some people like to do strength training and people like
to do cardio, some Pilates, some yoga. And it really,
(22:32):
you know, for me, it sort of varied over the
years depending on what roles are coming up or what
I want to improve on. Or some days I've, you know,
just fallen off the wagon and not done any gym. But,
you know, at the moment, my schedule, for example, is
I like to be in the gym an hour before class,
you know, sorting out the sore parts of my body and, um,
you know, strengthening certain parts that I think will will
(22:52):
benefit in the upcoming shows. And then from midday after
ballet class, we rehearse for from 12 to 630 with
an hour lunch break in the middle and then two
15 minute breaks, like kind of in between. So it's
not much break time, but um, and rehearsals are just like,
full on, you know, um, you're learning the material of
(23:13):
the upcoming shows, and then as you get closer to
the shows, you're just you're running it, you're running scenes,
you're running specific dances, and it's a mix of solo
work and partnering work and group work. And yeah, so
it's it's it's physical, but it's also like a brain
workout as well. Like sometimes when it gets to that
5:00 moment, even if you're not physically exhausted, your brain's like,
(23:37):
I can't retain any more choreography. I can't learn any
more steps.
S1 (23:40):
Um, yeah. The juice is gone.
S2 (23:42):
Yeah, everything's gone. And you're hoping for, like, a 15
minute break so you can have a snack and just, like,
lay down. And then at the moment, because the show
opens so soon, I find myself, even after rehearsals, going
back into the gym, sometimes after 630, to kind of
tick off some of the exercises I may have missed
in the morning. And, you know, do something for my
knees if they're sore or my back. And. Yeah. So it's, uh, yeah, long,
(24:04):
long and full days play through pain. Yeah. Through injury.
We love it.
S1 (24:08):
We mentioned pressure in the and the mental pain. And again,
I've heard you speak before about an experience playing Romeo um,
a role that you'd had dreamed about yet kind of
finding yourself in in tears. So was this in the
middle of a performance or you had just just finished?
But whatever it was, it spurred you to start working
(24:29):
with a psychologist after that. Can you tell us about
that moment and what you got out of working with
a professional?
S2 (24:34):
Yeah, I'd just been I'd been promoted to principal artist,
say six months before that moment. And I felt like
in those first six months I was like riding high
on the on the success and like, you know, the achievement.
And I was like, oh, this is great. Everything's great,
I feel good, I feel confident. And then I got
to this ballet, Romeo and Juliet, um, which I had
(24:57):
been dreaming of dancing since I was about 15 or 16.
And yeah, as I've said before, I just hated it.
I got out there and I was I hated it
because I wasn't dancing at how I wanted to dance it. Right? Um,
it wasn't that like, oh, I realized I don't like
this ballet. I still loved the ballet, but I couldn't
(25:19):
take the pressure that I was ultimately putting on myself.
You know, I was the newest principal in the company.
I was doing opening night. Um, and I just felt
like the nerves got to me, and I was. I
wasn't delivering what I'd been rehearsing, and it was just
my brain getting in the way, you know? Because sometimes
you can go out there and you can fumble a
(25:41):
step and it's like, oh, that's fine. I fumbled a
step like, but I know what happened. But it's it
gets scary when you get out there and you start
and things start going wrong and you don't know why
they're going wrong, because you can't pinpoint what you did
physically differently. It's just your brain and your nerves are
creating tension. Or in my case, like I in in
(26:04):
for those shows, I was sort of freezing up in
a way. And and yeah, it just I, it just
sort of snowballed Bold, and I'm sure it felt worse
than it actually ever looked, you know? But it just
made me so fearful of going out on stage and
doing this role. And yeah, as it got to the
end of I did like two seasons, I did Melbourne
(26:25):
and Sydney and it got to the second last show
in Sydney, and it was just like, it's like I'd
reached like a breaking point and I was just in tears,
bawling my eyes out after the show in my dressing
room and my director, who was and was shocked, my
director was shocked. He was like, I can't what? Like
he didn't know why I was so upset because I
think to him it was like, yeah, you're having a
(26:45):
couple of technical difficulties, but it's okay. And I was like, no,
it's like I was like, please, like pull me off
the stage. Like, I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah.
And and then yeah, the following year I came back
and we'd had like a few months off of performing
and I was doing another show, and I kind of
had forgotten about that experience. You know, I hadn't necessarily
addressed it. I'd just forgotten about it. And then it
(27:06):
was like feeling good in rehearsals. And I got out
for the first show, um, in Don Quixote, doing Espada
and I had to do a similar step to the
ones that I was struggling with, and I just got
back into that same place. I just freaked out and
I was like, fuck! And I remember for the rest
of that season, I was just I went from suddenly
(27:27):
being calm as I was like the week before in
the rehearsal period, to just like that same nervous tension
that I'd had during Romeo. And I remember thinking like,
at that stage I was 27, 26, 27. And I
was like, if this is what it's going to be
like for the next ten years of my career, like,
I can't do it. Like, I just yeah, it's too
(27:50):
hard and the reward isn't enough. Like, so I need
to try and find some strategies and some techniques to
actually get through it. And so I started seeing a
psychologist who the Australian Ballet found for me, and it
completely changed everything. Just when you can explain to someone
you know, be it performance related or any other parts
of your life. You know, I see a different therapist
(28:12):
now for, you know, it's not that I've got separate
therapists for separate things, but I'm seeing a different therapist now.
But like in that stage, it was the first time
I'd really seen a therapist, and it was strictly about
what I was feeling at work, you know, even though
it's all connected. But just to be able to say
to someone what you're feeling and experiencing and then have
have her turn to me and be like, yeah, of
course you're feeling this because like when you're in this
(28:33):
situation and you're on stage and it's like it's extremely
validating to be like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm not crazy
or I'm not weak. And from that, you know, we
just worked on like actual tangible strategies that began to
really help me. And they did. They just completely it
took a little while over time, because I think that
experience of being on stage and feeling that was quite
(28:55):
it did have quite an effect on me. But yeah,
I just the techniques that I learned and, you know,
still learning just completely changed how I went out on
stage and, and performed. And yeah, it was the best
thing I could have done because, like I used to
fantasize about, like, quitting and like, working an office job,
and which I don't think I would have lasted, but
(29:15):
I was literally would say to my friends, like, maybe
I should just do like a regular 9 to 5
and and and quit it all because I yeah, it
was that wow that scary and that, um, uncomfortable, full on.
S1 (29:29):
Okay. From, um, the brutal to the beautiful. My wife
adores the elegance of the ballet. She's an American, grew
up in a country town like, way north of Manhattan.
And the New York City Ballet used to come up
there and do a kind of residence. Yeah. Wow. In
this country town, in a beautiful grassy amphitheater. She likes
to say that the pitter patter of feet when the
(29:50):
dancers are out on stage is like her favorite sound
in the world. Oh, I love that. What moment do
you kind of most adore when you're out on stage dancing? Like,
what is it about, um, being on that floor, um,
being in a flow state that appeals to you. Mhm.
S2 (30:08):
Oh wow. That's a great question. Um, I've always been
envious of people who or dancers who say like, oh,
you know, when I'm dancing on stage by myself, I
get totally lost in the moment because I don't know
if I necessarily feel that, um, you have to be
perfectly honest with you.
S1 (30:27):
Um, so what? It's more technical.
S2 (30:30):
Well, it's like, I'm just like, I'm thinking a lot,
you know, like. And I'm jealous of people who are like, yeah,
I wasn't thinking about anything. And like, um, but there
is like. So it's difficult to say what my favorite
moments are, but there's definitely a I can think of
some like, I remember when I did my first show
of Nijinsky because it was such, you know, I was 21.
(30:52):
I was, you know, in the corps de ballet. I
was like a last minute kind of call in for
the show, in a way. And it was so overwhelming.
And I remember there's a moment towards the end of
the ballet before we do one last solo, and I'm
just sitting on this chair, and I remember looking up
(31:13):
and seeing the, like, this row of lights, you know,
the stage lights. And that was a moment where I felt, like,
incredibly present. And I remember thinking about my dad actually,
on that in that moment. And, you know, for whatever reason,
you know, and and so that's always stuck with me.
And so it's moments like that that I and they're
(31:36):
rarely that I'm dancing because usually when I'm dancing I'm
thinking too much or I'm, I'm, I'm seeing where I
am in the space or I'm probably already scared that
some steps are going to go wrong or something. But
so the moments that I really enjoy on stage, on
stage are when you're out there and you're able to
be on the stage and standing there and, you know,
(31:57):
in front of thousands of people, but not doing much.
So which might sound like an easy cop out, but it's.
That's when it feels, like, quite powerful and you know,
and be it, if you're in a character or, you know,
that's when I feel really present and like, um, that
I'm sort of maybe I'm not commanding something, but yeah,
(32:20):
it does feel very empowering. And so, yeah, it's always
the quiet moments, be it sitting in a chair or,
or just walking across a stage or you're.
S1 (32:29):
Stopping to smell the roses. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2 (32:32):
That's that's when I feel. Yeah. Really, really in the moment.
S1 (32:36):
Wonderful. I'm wondering now about the lifespan of a ballet dancer,
because I've got no idea. You're 29. How much longer
can you do what you do.
S2 (32:45):
Mate? It's running out. Um, I think it's different for everyone,
but I'd say probably on average, like mid to late 30s. So,
you know, some dancers dance to their early 40s. Um,
I think it's a mix of like how long the
body can hold out, how long the passion holds out,
(33:06):
or another passion takes over or, you know, um.
S1 (33:11):
How's the body? How's the body is okay.
S2 (33:14):
Um, I, you know, we're about to open nezhinski, and, um,
so I'm covered in bruises because it's one of those
very physical ones. But for the most part, I've been
really lucky, like in terms of injuries. I've had little
injuries along the way, but nothing too serious to keep
me out for a long time. Um, yeah. So I'm
(33:35):
almost 30, which means that I should probably start to
think about what I'm going to do next, and I
have no idea. And so if you've got any ideas,
you can let me know, because I reckon, I think
I've probably got another maybe 6 or 7 years left. Left.
S1 (33:53):
I was going to ask you what, uh, what was next?
Do you see yourself as an artistic director, as a choreographer,
as is a teacher like or something altogether different? Do
you get out of ballet and into a different kind
of dance?
S2 (34:06):
I don't know, like I, I don't I'm not a
choreographer because I think I think that's a I mean,
like a lot of things, I think, I think choreography
is a real calling. And, you know, I haven't necessarily
had that desire or that, you know, um, inspiration to
start creating. Um, I mean, sometimes, like when I was younger,
(34:27):
the idea of being an artistic director seemed amazing. Um,
but as I've gotten older and seen more about the job, like,
it's a, it's a really bloody hard job. Of course
it is. And, you know, so sometimes I'm like, oh,
maybe when I'm finished dancing, maybe I'd like to do
something different. Separate to the to the world I've lived
(34:49):
in since I was 12, you know, because that's another
crazy thing. Like I've it's really all, you know, I
consider myself I try to be a well-rounded person, but like,
it's I've. I've literally been in the same building since
I was 12 years old. The Australian Ballet School is
down the hall from the Australian Ballet Company, and I
started going there when I was 12, in 2008. And
(35:12):
now I'm, you know, I'm 29.
S1 (35:14):
You're institutionalised.
S2 (35:15):
I'm institutionalised. I'm well and truly institutionalised. So then that's
when I'm like, you know, if I was to continue
on in a different role after being a dancer, like
I could be in that same building for like 50 years,
and that seems crazy.
S1 (35:32):
Or a life well spent.
S2 (35:33):
Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'll get like a plaque or something
in the building, but yeah, I don't know. I really,
I oscillate between being like, oh, do I want to
stay in the arts or do I want to do
something different? I'm not sure it's all up in the air.
So yeah, I'm taking as many suggestions as possible.
S1 (35:47):
Fantastic. Maybe our listeners will have some for us. In
the meantime, thank you very much for joining us. Callum.
It was a pleasure to chat to you.
S2 (35:54):
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.
S1 (35:57):
That was Callum Linnane, principal dancer for the Australian Ballet.
In conversation with Good Weekend senior writer Conrad Marshall for
the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode,
please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get
your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations.
Coming soon! We chat with American journalist and podcaster Kara
(36:19):
Swisher about tech bros and Trump, and where she finds
solace and hope in troubled times. Good Weekend Talks is
brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The
Age proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(36:42):
by Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is head of audio. And Katrina Strickland is the editor.
UU (36:51):
Of Good Weekend.
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