March 6, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode, we speak with Senator Katy Gallagher. The busy politician is close to both Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Treasurer Jim Chalmers, and manages an almighty workload.
With four big portfolios in finance, women, the public service and government services, she’s also firmly in the crosshairs of the opposition, which has promised to slash jobs, and cut back on diversity hires and working from home.
Gallagher talks to us today about all of the above, but also her own life and times – including her unusual family upbringing, and the immense tragedy she suffered with the loss of her fiancé, Brett Seaman, when she was 26 and pregnant with their first child.
Gallagher is the subject of our cover story this week – “From that worst place, I found a way out” – and hosting this conversation is the writer of that in-depth profile, freelance correspondent Deborah Snow.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:29):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with
Senator Katy Gallagher. The busy politician is close with both
Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Treasurer Jim Chalmers and manages
an almighty workload too, with four big portfolios in finance, women,
the public service and government services. She's also firmly in
the crosshairs of the opposition, which has promised to slash
(00:52):
jobs and cut back on diversity hires and working from home.
Gallagher talks to us today about all of the above,
but also her own life and times, including her unusual
family upbringing and the immense tragedy she suffered with the
loss of her fiancé, Brett Seaman, when she was nearly
27 and pregnant with their first child. Gallagher is the
(01:12):
subject of our cover story this week from That Worst Place,
I Found a Way Out. And hosting this conversation is
the writer of that in-depth profile, freelance correspondent Deborah Snow.
S2 (01:24):
Senator Gallagher, Katy, thank you so much for coming in
at an incredibly busy time. And I should point out
that this will be going to air on Saturday the eighth,
which is International Women's Day. So in advance. Happy International
Women's Day.
S3 (01:37):
And to you, Deb.
S2 (01:37):
Thank you. Now there's a big elephant in the room.
You've been doing a little bit of campaigning out and about.
You've also been in IRC for a budget that may
or may not be coming up in March. Can you
give us any hint at all as to when the
election is going to be?
S3 (01:50):
Well, that's a matter for the PM. He's one of
the few things where he is the only decision maker.
So that's a matter for him. But we're doing all
the work that we need to do for the budget.
A lot of those. The big decisions have all been done. Um,
you know, they're taken weeks out and then all the
busy work across departments happens. So all of that's in place.
(02:11):
But yeah, I guess my.
S2 (02:12):
Two horses at once at the moment. Yeah.
S3 (02:14):
Well, there's certainly a feeling in the air, isn't there,
that the campaign is underway and we know it's going
to be held between now and the 17th of May. Um, but,
you know, that's politics. But we have to prepare and
make sure the budget's ready to go, which it is.
S2 (02:29):
So you have an incredibly important role in government. You
have four portfolios finance, women, public service and government services.
And you're also the senator for the act. And I
think Norfolk Island as well. And you're the manager of
government business. Um, how do you juggle it all?
S3 (02:48):
Well, there's lots of different roles, but they all intersect
nicely as well. So the portfolios. Um, obviously the main
one is the Department of being the Finance Minister. So
through the Department of Finance. But, you know, finance gives
me that kind of whole of government reach and view.
And so my portfolio of women public service and now
(03:11):
government services really works well with that central portfolio. So yeah,
I'm busy. I'm busy all the time. Lots of different
balls in the air. My work in the Senate is
really intense on sitting days, and my portfolio work is
more intense on Non-sitting days, so it all works out
in the end.
S2 (03:31):
So for people who don't really understand how the Senate
works in detail, and that's probably most of us. Um,
tell us a little bit about what that managing the
Senate looks like and what are the most important things,
qualities that you have to bring to that role?
S3 (03:46):
Well, manager of government business in the Senate involves, um,
shepherding the government's legislative agenda through um. And we always
joke with our House colleagues who are in a majority chamber.
That's more straightforward in the House, where there's a majority
of votes in the Senate, there's 76 senators, the government
has 25. So we have to make up all of
(04:09):
those extra votes to get a majority to get anything done.
And I'm not just talking legislation. It's any motion we
want passed, really, for the Senate to sit. We have
to reach agreement. Everything that goes before the Senate has
to pass the Senate with a majority of votes. So
for us, that means we have to go around and
get to that magic number of 39, which involves getting
(04:31):
a few others to vote with us on everything.
S2 (04:33):
Beg, borrow or buy?
S3 (04:35):
Exactly. There's a lot of the. I think the most
important role I have is to to really manage the
relationships across the Senate. The Senate is a very diverse chamber.
We have, you know, people who sit on the extreme
right of politics to those on the far left and then,
you know, the both the parties of government as well.
(04:58):
And so yeah, it's a sometimes it's a strange mix
of votes that we get to get legislation through. But
for me it's getting that majority vote and then I
can get it done. Often it's a different mix to
do that.
S2 (05:12):
Now, there was a famous week in the last week
of November where the government got 45 bills through, courtesy
of a lot of the work that you did on
the floor with the Prime Minister obviously calling some of
the shots behind the scenes. Um, the opposition complained that
you used the guillotine, as they call it. That's the
mechanism that shuts off debate if you can get enough
(05:32):
votes to support that. They said that you just rammed
far too much through without the scrutiny of Parliament. Do
you accept that there should have been a little bit
more time taken with those things?
S3 (05:41):
I've learned the Senate will take as much time as
the Senate has available. And when you've got an obstructionist opposition,
which we did towards the end of last year, and
we have mostly through this term of Parliament, um, you know,
to get one bill through. You're pretty fortunate in a
sitting week because you don't control the numbers. The time
that's allocated to bills can take a very long time.
(06:04):
And if a if a opposition or a crossbencher doesn't
want a bill passed, they will filibuster. So it's not
our preference to go to the guillotine. But we do
want to get some legislation through. And as it turns out,
towards the end of last year, we were able to
convince a majority of senators that that would be the
right thing to do. Most of the bills go through committee.
Most of the bills have been around a long time.
(06:25):
In some of the cases, they've been around two years.
And so, you know, the end of the sitting year
is always a bit of a lot in that sitting week.
This was a lot of a lot I felt. But
we got the job done.
S2 (06:39):
I think I came and saw you in your office
at the end of that week, and I think you
told me you were so dead. You were only seeing
with one eye, I think was what you said at
the time.
S3 (06:46):
I was pretty shattered.
S2 (06:47):
Before we get on to your personal story, I just
wanted to ask you this question. Um, Jim Chalmers, the treasurer,
is a very close colleague of yours personally as well
as professionally. And he he had this to say about you.
He said some people are tough or empathetic, and Katie's both.
That's her superpower. Nobody in politics is irreplaceable. But in
(07:09):
our team, she comes the closest. How do you react
to that?
S3 (07:12):
Well, it's a very generous statement from Jim. Um, you know,
I work really closely with him. He's, you know, a
wonderful colleague to have. And I think it works incredibly
well that the treasurer and finance minister are close colleagues
and friends as well. And I do count him as
a friend. So I find that very generous. Um, I
(07:35):
find people making nice comments about me a bit difficult,
you know, like, um, I just feel like I go
to work and I try to do the best every day,
but Jim helps me in the work I do, and
he helps me be a better person at the work
I do. So I see it as a mutually beneficial relationship.
S2 (07:52):
Let's come to your your story, which your your your
family story, your life story which you were generous enough
to share with with us through the interviews that we've
been doing. Um, the way you were raised, our fam
was really interesting. I mean, your parents were originally from England,
but your mum Betsy was a real force. I know
you're very close to both of your parents, but Betsy
(08:13):
had this penchant for bringing in waifs and strays, human
and animal. Um, can you tell us a bit about
how that was in your childhood and how that's rubbed
off on you, in how you approach your life today?
S3 (08:26):
Yeah. So I feel very fortunate for the upbringing I had.
Both my parents were very community minded, very involved in
their community. I think some of that might have come
from the fact that they had no family around and
friends when they first turned up here in Australia, and
I can't imagine how difficult that would have been. I
(08:46):
try to place myself in that situation, going to a
country across the world with family and friends who you
spoke to or wrote to, and weeks would pass.
S2 (08:57):
And I forgot to mention there. Or perhaps you could.
Your mum had five children under the sorry, four children
under the age of five, didn't she? When she. In
the early 70s. Yeah.
S3 (09:06):
That's right. So she. When, when she was. When they
moved to to Canberra. Mhm. Um my parents had my
sister and I and then the two boys pretty close.
So there was four children under five adopted. They were
both adopted but we were all close in age. Um,
and yeah, I can't imagine how isolating that could have
been for mum at home with four children. She made
(09:29):
friends in the neighbourhood, but she also went about, um,
you know, building up groups, whether it be mother and
children groups in those days or, or getting herself known
and that then through as we got older, that became
a bit more well formalised, even though it's still pretty
informal to today's standards.
S2 (09:47):
So just just to be clear, so you she was actually,
I think, giving mothers in crisis that she knew through
her networks of informal respite care, in respite, respite care
of their children, wasn't she? She was giving them breaks.
They they'd turn up at your family dinner table.
S3 (10:03):
Yeah. They would. So I think she recognised in other women,
perhaps some of the isolation and pressure she had when,
when she first, you know, had arrived with very young children.
She was a nurse by background. So I think a
lot of that sort of caring compassion came through through that.
And probably why she wanted to be a nurse. But yeah,
she would recognise a mum in need and all of
(10:26):
a sudden we'd have a couple of new faces at
the dinner table with dad looking a bit confused about
what was going on. You couldn't do it now, obviously
with all the rules in place, but I know she
ensured that through doing that, sometimes we would the children
would stay with us for weeks. It wasn't like overnight
they would stay for a period of time until the mum,
(10:47):
often a single mum, would get her life back in order.
And I know for a fact that she kept families
together through that. Um, in situations where children might have
been removed, she was able to kind of band aid
and support them and let those mothers know that they
mattered and people cared about them, which I think was
really instructive for us as well, who in comparison had
(11:11):
a pretty privileged life. I mean, Mum and Dad didn't
have a lot, but we never went without and we
had two loving parents, we had close community, we had
parents who cared about us, our education, and so being
exposed to families that where life was a lot tougher, um,
was really a good and important lesson for us.
S2 (11:33):
So as well as these children who'd occasionally come in
and out, there was a menagerie happening in your in
your childhood home, wasn't there? Tell us a bit about that.
S3 (11:42):
Yeah. So mum was I mean, this is part of
why it's so sad that we lost her so early.
Because I would love to go through some of this
now as more of an adult and kind of work
through what went on. But we had a lot of animals. Um,
mum and dad. Dad was an animal lover. Not quite
as much as mum. And, um, you know, we had
lambs at one time. We had three lambs that mum
(12:06):
had saved from an abattoir. We had a kangaroo. Um,
we had mice, we had guinea pigs, we had cats.
I don't think we had any birds from memory at all. But, um. Yeah,
there was always a lot going on. Um, and the
kangaroo obviously was. And the sheep were a new element
that we had in our residential back garden. Um, they
(12:28):
eventually went on to farm. Mum would find them all
homes as well. So the sheep went on to being
mascots and and hobby farms and the kangaroo. Eventually Tippi
the kangaroo went to the animal park in Canberra when
she got too old to be in a backyard.
S2 (12:44):
I think you told me a story. I didn't put
this in the article, but I think you told me
that you and your mum went back to visit Tippi,
and you went a bit too early and Tippi got
a little bit upset.
S3 (12:52):
It was heartbreaking and I don't think we went back again.
I don't think I went back again because Tippi had
a special blanket, and she had a little bit of
the blanket that she kept in her pouch. And, um,
and when we went back, Kangaroos make quite a quite
a sound for their mother or who they think their
mother figure is. And it's. Yeah, it was it was awful.
(13:13):
And we all went running away crying. But Tippi went
on to have a very nice life. They did. And
she had lots of her own children and things, and
we recovered eventually.
S2 (13:24):
Uh, your father was a big influence on you, too.
We shouldn't leave him out of the story. Your father, Charles,
and he was a, you know, became a lawyer and
worked in the parliamentary office, I think, for a while.
Parliamentary library. When the health department, he was an activist
for prisoners rights. Um, so he was another big influence
on you, wasn't he?
S3 (13:43):
He was perhaps. Um, he certainly had a big impact
on my politics. So dad was a Labour Party member
and very vocal about, um, you know, what he thought
was important when it came to politics? Mum was always
a bit more far left wing. She was. She had
a nuclear disarmament sticker on.
S2 (14:02):
There for labour. You tell.
S3 (14:02):
Me. Yeah. She had a nuclear disarmament sticker on the
back of our car which used to drive my dad mad. But, um,
so dad had that influence on me. But, yeah, he
was more introverted than mum. Um, you know, she was
a stronger personality in the relationship, but he was a
quiet achiever as well. So, of course, he was a
wonderful father, but he he was a lifeline counsellor, telephone
(14:24):
counsellor for many years and actually became a trainer of
the counsellors over time. And also at that time Canberra
didn't have a jail. And so we shipped all our
prisoners to New South Wales, to Goulburn or Long Bay.
And often that disconnected families, again, usually disadvantaged families. So
dad would um he became an advocate. He worked for,
(14:47):
you know, ensuring that family connections were kept. So it
was similar to some of the work mum was doing,
but using his legal expertise to, to help that. Um,
but yeah, again, the message I think they gave to
all of us children was, you know, it's not just
enough to be in your community. You must be a
part of it and you need to contribute. And that
was something that we obviously was exposed to from a
(15:09):
pretty young age.
S2 (15:22):
In the. I know you've recounted before, uh, the story
of the loss of your then fiance, Brett Seaman, in
a horrendous bike accident, I think when you were just 20, 26,
almost 27. Um, I was struck with your reflections on
what the long term effects were of that on you.
And for those who haven't yet read the piece, can
(15:43):
you just briefly tell us again what happened and how
that sort of reverberated through your later philosophy in life.
S3 (15:51):
Yeah. So that day, I mean, it's still sort of,
you know, pretty stark in my memory, um, as it
would be on any day that people go through where
you come to a part of, uh, almost a fork
in the road and you go off on a completely
different direction than you thought you were heading in. Um,
so that that that day we were coming home from, uh,
(16:13):
Brett was a cyclist. He'd been riding a essentially a
long ride down in around Mount Beauty, around that part
of the world. And we'd driven up.
S2 (16:22):
New South Wales south coast.
S3 (16:23):
Um, yeah, we were at the South Coast, so sort
of halfway on our way home, and we'd stopped out
just for a weekend, you know, recovery. And, um, Brett
went out for a ride. A recovery ride, essentially. Um, and,
you know, we'd arranged to meet at the beach, um,
about two hours later, um, and I went to our
(16:44):
designated meeting spot and he never turned up. And after
about a I don't know, it would have been a
half an hour or an hour, I got worried and
sort of started the process of looking for him, which
which took a lot of that afternoon, um, driving around
looking for him. And at some point during the afternoon,
there was a message on the radio that said that
(17:05):
the police were looking for a family of a cyclist
who'd been killed that day, and I was driving. I
heard that, and I knew straight away it was him.
S2 (17:13):
You were pregnant at the time?
S3 (17:14):
Yeah. So I was in the sort of first trimester
of pregnancy. We were looking obviously, you know, before that moment,
we were looking forward to, um, that year because it
would be the year our baby would be born. Life
would go to the next level stage, I guess, of
a relationship. Um, and so we were in a very
we were in a very good place. And, you know,
(17:36):
I guess the world was before us. We we felt
very lucky in all of that. And then obviously this
happened and it changed. Um, Well, it obviously it ended
his life and changed mine forever.
S2 (17:47):
And what do you think changed in you after that,
that that carried you forward? Because of course you then
repartnered a few years later, you now have three children,
two more with your current partner, Dave Skinner. Um, very
happily together. Yeah. Um, but what lingered, do you think,
(18:09):
from that tragedy in terms of how it forged your
approach to difficult times or obstacles or challenges that you,
that you come up against? Um.
S3 (18:20):
Well, I do feel very fortunate, obviously, that I've. I
found love again. And, and we, you know, built a
new family from just a family that Abby and I,
which was Brett and my daughter Abby, who was born
in August of that year. Uh, look, I think for me,
I went to the lowest place. I think a person
(18:40):
can go through that. And it was a mix of things.
Obviously sudden loss and accident like that is shocking for anyone,
but I think I actually not only went through that,
but then got really very depressed, um, through that. And
so I, I think I got so unwell that I,
(19:01):
it wasn't if there can be a normal response to
that type of incident. Um, mine wasn't quite like that.
So I became very unwell and I needed a lot
of help to recover from that. But I think if
the question you're going to is really about how how,
you know, how do I get through it? How did
(19:22):
it shape me?
S2 (19:23):
What did you then carry through, I suppose in all
the years since. Because it's been how many years now?
S3 (19:28):
Um, it's 20, 27, 27.
S2 (19:31):
Yeah, yeah.
S3 (19:32):
Um, yeah. That it was really. Well, I learnt to
be in incredibly tough because I think if you climb
out of a hole like that and you're able to
get yourself together, which I did, and it took months.
If actually it took years if I'm entirely honest. Um,
you know, it takes a lot to to take you
(19:53):
back there. So it gives you perspective. It gave me
strength ultimately. And I am generally an optimist by nature.
And so I always look for the good that comes
out of things. This was, you know, incredibly difficult. I
wouldn't wish it on anybody, but, um, it did help
shape me and, you know, make, I don't know, made
(20:13):
me grateful, made me strong, made me independent. I didn't
imagine I would be a single mother living on my
own in a house, you know, with, you know, no
certainty of income and all those things. And I had
to pull myself together and and get myself together because
someone with a baby was relying on me. You know,
I couldn't just wallow around and and think, well, this
(20:35):
is the end of it then, because I had this
gorgeous little baby who, um, who needed me and had
no one else.
S2 (20:41):
Well, I think as we spell out in the piece,
you then went on to have a career in the
union movement, then into the Act Legislative Assembly from there
into the Senate. And I think the rest were most
of us, most of us know, obviously there were some
bumps along the road there. But then you, your third child, Evie,
you you and she went quite public recently about the
(21:02):
fact that she, she is on the spectrum for autism
and ADHD and a couple of other things, and obviously
that has special challenges. She's a lovely kid. Mhm. Um,
having met her, I mean, what's your message to parents
who might have a child who's just received a diagnosis
like this. Um, you know, what have you learned, uh,
(21:23):
since that became the reason why you started to understand.
That's the reason why she has her particular challenges.
S3 (21:30):
Yeah. What would I say? I mean, I think the
message from me out of all of it is never
stop advocating for your child. And I think most parents
do that, But I feel, um, once we understood the beautiful, complex,
wonderful package that is Evie. It helped us be better
parents for her. Um, and, you know, I don't beat
(21:52):
myself up about much or have regrets or look backwards because,
you know, life's too short and all of that. But
I do feel if if we were able to get
her sorted and understood a bit earlier than we did, um,
you know, life would have been easier for her and
probably for the rest of the family as well, because she,
you know, everyone knows the stories of a problem child
or a child that you can't quite get your grip
(22:13):
on as a parent. She was that she was a
handful for me and her dad. Um, but you know,
now that we actually understand how a brain works, how
she works, what she finds hard, what she finds easy, um,
we're able to be, you know, much better. And it's
a much better life for her, too, that she's not
beating herself up thinking, you know, she's not normal if
(22:35):
there is a normal in this world. And so it's
been a much better since we got the diagnosis, but
it was hard getting to that point, and I feel
like I know government systems. I know, um, you know,
how to book assessments. I kind of knew there was
something not right, but it still took me years and
years to get through.
S2 (22:54):
You know, given that, you know, you've got such a
busy life and you're managing all this as well, I
think I think that's something that, um, a lot of
adult Australians probably have to try and work into their lives. Um, Katie,
you adore animals. Um, we talk a little bit about
your magpie family in the piece. We won't go into
that just now, but you've tried to persuade Dave to
(23:16):
have more than one dog. He's not having it, is he?
S3 (23:17):
No. No, he's.
S2 (23:20):
I think you said you'd like to have 100.
S3 (23:23):
Well, I'd like to have a dog rescue. Um. One day.
Dave's not that keen on it. Um, he loves animals, too,
but he. He thinks we're an only dog household, and so. Yeah,
I have to. I have to work with him. He's the,
you know, co-captain of the household. So I can't just
bring in what I'd like in animals. Um, but, yeah,
(23:45):
I love I love any animal.
S2 (23:47):
Let's talk a little bit of politics. Um, one of
your jobs. Minister of the Public service. That's shaping up
as a big election issue. Uh, the opposition leader, Peter Dutton,
has indicated that he'll make savings by, um, reversing some
of the 20% or so growth of the federal public
service on your watch. And in addition, the plans to
(24:08):
wind back working from home for public servants and perhaps
reducing the emphasis on diversity and inclusion. Um, how much
do you think the electorate is going to focus on
any of this? And has he got a point, um, that,
you know, really government can't afford to be growing at
this pace, um, when the economy is still trying to
(24:30):
sort of get itself up, you know, up to speed
a bit more.
S3 (24:34):
Yeah. Look, I think the public service will be front
and center in this campaign. Clearly, it's going to be
a contested space. I mean, in response to the criticisms
that Mr. Dutton has made about the size of the
public service, I would say, um, you know, it's it's
resource properly. Now, I don't think it was resourced properly
under the former government. And the other big difference is
(24:56):
there was an overreliance on contractors and consultants. So there
was a lot of labour hire, a lot of temporary
workers that bought in. And so the quality of service matters,
and I think that does matter to Australians. I think
if you talk to them about, would you like to
spend ten minutes longer on the phone waiting to get Centrelink? Um,
if you're a veteran, do you want your claim allocated
(25:18):
in two weeks or a year? I think those things
do matter and it's about making that real for people. Um,
I think one of the good things about government is
that you shouldn't you shouldn't be so noticeable in people's
lives that they're frustrated with dealing with you. But if
if you did sit down and say to people, these
are all the way the Commonwealth government actually touches your life.
I think they would be surprised because it isn't as
(25:41):
obvious as engaging with your state or local government. And
I think the public has a right to have good
quality public services. And I think that is a difference
between us and the opposition.
S2 (25:54):
But does he and his spokesperson, Jane Hume, have a
point when they say that, uh, too many people working
from home denies the opportunity for younger people to absorb
lessons from the workplace, that to some extent, you compromise
connectivity and creativity and teamwork. Is there a point there?
S3 (26:15):
Well, I think both on the diversity front and the
working from home front, we have to accept there's a
little bit of importing of overseas policies going on at
the moment that seem to be being pulled into Australia.
And I would say, look, let's have a policy debate
about what's right for Australia, not what might be happening
in the US, for example. No matter how politically attractive
that may be. But the other point is, I think
(26:38):
hybrid working some, working from home, some in the office
is going to be a feature of modern workplaces. The
public service has to attract talent. We have to attract
it outside capital cities. We have to attract it in
rural and regional parts of Australia if we want the best,
and the hybrid arrangements works for that. We saw a
lot of it in Covid. I think the average working family,
(27:03):
if you've got two parents or or two adults working,
working from home arrangements can really improve that whole kind
of unit's happiness if they are able to manage things
that suits them. So I've asked the public Service commissioner
about a month or two ago to have a look
at how working from home arrangements are working in practice,
(27:28):
so that we can get sort of up to date advice.
This is the first, I think we've had a year
of the new enterprise agreement being in place, which only
gives people the right to ask for it. I heard
some from my opposite number saying that they can demand it.
They can't. Uh, and let's just have a look. Let's
have a good let's use evidence. Let's let's be clear
about what works, what doesn't work for the employer and
(27:51):
what works what doesn't work for employees and then make decisions.
But I can't see a world where some working from home,
particularly if you're in a role that can do that,
isn't part of the employment question.
S2 (28:05):
Now, you're close to Prime Minister Albanese as well as
your economic colleague, Jim Chalmers. Um, why is he going
so badly in the polls? What is it? You see
him up close? What do you what do you see
that the public isn't seeing that that voters seem to
be turning off?
S3 (28:23):
Well, I mean, I'll let others talk about polls. I work,
as you say, closely with Anthony. Um, and I, you know,
I see a very decent, hard working man who spends
his whole day, every day trying to work out how
to make good decisions in the best interests of the country. Um,
he's he's funny, he's hard working. He's hugely loyal and supportive. Um,
(28:49):
you know, he'll always. If he thinks you've had a
hard day, he'll give you a call. He'll come and
pop in to see you. Um, he looks after people.
He's excellent. Um, with relationships. He values them. He. He
treats people incredibly politely and decently. And he works really,
really hard, you know? Um, and he never stops thinking. Um.
(29:13):
So I really enjoy. I've been very privileged to work
with great people in politics. Not always the case, but
I feel very privileged to work closely with him and
help him implement his agenda.
S2 (29:25):
I will just touch briefly on the on the Brittany
Higgins saga. We won't go into the ins and outs
of it, um, because of course there's still court cases running.
But you did have a bit of a bad run
with your entanglement with it because you were accused of
misleading the Senate. There was a bit of a dust
up between you and Linda Reynolds on this recently. She
(29:46):
still thinks she's waiting. Well, she still wants an apology
from you for the way she felt that you had
run the attack on her over the way she'd handled that. Um,
do you feel you still owe her an apology, or
do you feel you've given her one?
S3 (29:59):
Well, look, I said to her last week in estimates,
and I'd already said it in the chamber. Like, I
am sorry that people got, um, hurt through this. You
know what happened to Miss Higgins at Parliament? Um, I
don't think anyone you know who's watched that story or
been involved in some way ever understood exactly where, you know,
(30:23):
the the twists and turns that that case would take.
But no one went in with the intention to hurt anybody? Um,
you know, I asked reasonable questions. I've gone back and
I've had a look at them, you know, an alleged rape.
Or if you agree with Justice Lee's decision, a rape
happened in Parliament House, in a minister's office. And I
(30:43):
think it would have been incredibly unusual for there to
be no questions asked about that. And following on from that,
we have taken so many steps and made so many
changes to make sure a situation like that never happens
again in Parliament House. And I've been kind of central
to to putting in place those reforms, because I think
(31:04):
Parliament House should be the safest workplace in the world
and certainly the safest workplace in the country. And that
wasn't the case on that particular day.
S2 (31:13):
Are you going to be campaign spokesperson again?
S3 (31:15):
Yes, yes. Jason Clare and I are joint. Yes. We're
we're doing the joint roll through the campaign.
S2 (31:23):
I've been reading, uh, a lot of criticism about the
government's spending. Now, I know you and Jim Chalmers, uh, you,
you know, put together back to back surpluses. You've talked
about $92 billion in savings that you made. You're the
finance minister, of course. So you're right across all this stuff. Um,
but we know that going forward, it's going to be
(31:45):
deficits again. And there's been increasing drumbeat of criticism from
the business community and some independent economists, um, about the
rate of government spending. And I noticed just this morning
I was reading the Financial Review, uh, saying it's been
the biggest spending increase for a first time government since
(32:05):
the Whitlam era 50 years ago. Um, have you been
spending like drunken sailors, as the opposition says? And is
it time to exert a bit more discipline?
S3 (32:14):
Well, I won't be certainly listening to an opposition that
wants to spend $600 billion on nuclear power reactors, um,
and basically cut services in order to deliver it as
a criticism of our approach to the budget. Uh, look,
we've we inherited a budget mess, that's for sure. And
we've been methodically working through it and making sure we're
(32:35):
resourcing areas that Australians value properly. We've had to find
savings and we've done that. As you say. We've had
a surplus, two surpluses, we've lowered debt, we've lowered interest
on that debt, which is really important. And we've found
room for things like Medicare, for housing programs, for education
and training and support for defence in aged care. If
(33:00):
you look across the board, these were areas that had
been neglected and people were suffering out-of-pocket costs in health,
you know, school agreements, school resourcing, public schools not being
resourced properly. I think most people would agree that should
be a pretty big priority for the government. Defence was
in a mess in terms of its capability. We've sorted
through that. We've done a lot of work and that
(33:24):
has involved making decisions about where investments go. Now, I
would challenge our record on sorting through all that and
and investing in those priority areas with an opposition whose
policy to date is nuclear power reactors and cuts to
Medicare and that to pay for it. So there is
a contrast in our budget approach. Um, you know, we've
(33:47):
been responsible, I think, with the budget. But we also
have to accept that we're going through big demographic change
where the pressures on the budget are real NDIS, aged care,
health care, um, those areas need to be resourced properly
and we get the fact that you have to be
efficient and effective with taxpayers dollars. Um, you know, we
go through this every IRC meeting, line by line about
(34:10):
where we can find savings, where we can reprioritize to
make sure. But I think ultimately, at the end of
the day, if you want services funded properly, we need
to find room in the budget for it.
S2 (34:20):
Well, I guess it'll be over to the electorate soon
enough to make its choice and make a decision. Thank
you so much for joining us, Senator Katy Gallagher.
S3 (34:28):
Thanks very much, Deb.
S1 (34:31):
That was Senator Katy Gallagher being interviewed by journalist Deborah
Snow on the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed
this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever
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(34:52):
starting March 21st. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you
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(35:16):
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Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
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you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:29):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with
Senator Katy Gallagher. The busy politician is close with both
Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Treasurer Jim Chalmers and manages
an almighty workload too, with four big portfolios in finance, women,
the public service and government services. She's also firmly in
the crosshairs of the opposition, which has promised to slash
(00:52):
jobs and cut back on diversity hires and working from home.
Gallagher talks to us today about all of the above,
but also her own life and times, including her unusual
family upbringing and the immense tragedy she suffered with the
loss of her fiancé, Brett Seaman, when she was nearly
27 and pregnant with their first child. Gallagher is the
(01:12):
subject of our cover story this week from That Worst Place,
I Found a Way Out. And hosting this conversation is
the writer of that in-depth profile, freelance correspondent Deborah Snow.
S2 (01:24):
Senator Gallagher, Katy, thank you so much for coming in
at an incredibly busy time. And I should point out
that this will be going to air on Saturday the eighth,
which is International Women's Day. So in advance. Happy International
Women's Day.
S3 (01:37):
And to you, Deb.
S2 (01:37):
Thank you. Now there's a big elephant in the room.
You've been doing a little bit of campaigning out and about.
You've also been in IRC for a budget that may
or may not be coming up in March. Can you
give us any hint at all as to when the
election is going to be?
S3 (01:50):
Well, that's a matter for the PM. He's one of
the few things where he is the only decision maker.
So that's a matter for him. But we're doing all
the work that we need to do for the budget.
A lot of those. The big decisions have all been done. Um,
you know, they're taken weeks out and then all the
busy work across departments happens. So all of that's in place.
(02:11):
But yeah, I guess my.
S2 (02:12):
Two horses at once at the moment. Yeah.
S3 (02:14):
Well, there's certainly a feeling in the air, isn't there,
that the campaign is underway and we know it's going
to be held between now and the 17th of May. Um, but,
you know, that's politics. But we have to prepare and
make sure the budget's ready to go, which it is.
S2 (02:29):
So you have an incredibly important role in government. You
have four portfolios finance, women, public service and government services.
And you're also the senator for the act. And I
think Norfolk Island as well. And you're the manager of
government business. Um, how do you juggle it all?
S3 (02:48):
Well, there's lots of different roles, but they all intersect
nicely as well. So the portfolios. Um, obviously the main
one is the Department of being the Finance Minister. So
through the Department of Finance. But, you know, finance gives
me that kind of whole of government reach and view.
And so my portfolio of women public service and now
(03:11):
government services really works well with that central portfolio. So yeah,
I'm busy. I'm busy all the time. Lots of different
balls in the air. My work in the Senate is
really intense on sitting days, and my portfolio work is
more intense on Non-sitting days, so it all works out
in the end.
S2 (03:31):
So for people who don't really understand how the Senate
works in detail, and that's probably most of us. Um,
tell us a little bit about what that managing the
Senate looks like and what are the most important things,
qualities that you have to bring to that role?
S3 (03:46):
Well, manager of government business in the Senate involves, um,
shepherding the government's legislative agenda through um. And we always
joke with our House colleagues who are in a majority chamber.
That's more straightforward in the House, where there's a majority
of votes in the Senate, there's 76 senators, the government
has 25. So we have to make up all of
(04:09):
those extra votes to get a majority to get anything done.
And I'm not just talking legislation. It's any motion we
want passed, really, for the Senate to sit. We have
to reach agreement. Everything that goes before the Senate has
to pass the Senate with a majority of votes. So
for us, that means we have to go around and
get to that magic number of 39, which involves getting
(04:31):
a few others to vote with us on everything.
S2 (04:33):
Beg, borrow or buy?
S3 (04:35):
Exactly. There's a lot of the. I think the most
important role I have is to to really manage the
relationships across the Senate. The Senate is a very diverse chamber.
We have, you know, people who sit on the extreme
right of politics to those on the far left and then,
you know, the both the parties of government as well.
(04:58):
And so yeah, it's a sometimes it's a strange mix
of votes that we get to get legislation through. But
for me it's getting that majority vote and then I
can get it done. Often it's a different mix to
do that.
S2 (05:12):
Now, there was a famous week in the last week
of November where the government got 45 bills through, courtesy
of a lot of the work that you did on
the floor with the Prime Minister obviously calling some of
the shots behind the scenes. Um, the opposition complained that
you used the guillotine, as they call it. That's the
mechanism that shuts off debate if you can get enough
(05:32):
votes to support that. They said that you just rammed
far too much through without the scrutiny of Parliament. Do
you accept that there should have been a little bit
more time taken with those things?
S3 (05:41):
I've learned the Senate will take as much time as
the Senate has available. And when you've got an obstructionist opposition,
which we did towards the end of last year, and
we have mostly through this term of Parliament, um, you know,
to get one bill through. You're pretty fortunate in a
sitting week because you don't control the numbers. The time
that's allocated to bills can take a very long time.
(06:04):
And if a if a opposition or a crossbencher doesn't
want a bill passed, they will filibuster. So it's not
our preference to go to the guillotine. But we do
want to get some legislation through. And as it turns out,
towards the end of last year, we were able to
convince a majority of senators that that would be the
right thing to do. Most of the bills go through committee.
Most of the bills have been around a long time.
(06:25):
In some of the cases, they've been around two years.
And so, you know, the end of the sitting year
is always a bit of a lot in that sitting week.
This was a lot of a lot I felt. But
we got the job done.
S2 (06:39):
I think I came and saw you in your office
at the end of that week, and I think you
told me you were so dead. You were only seeing
with one eye, I think was what you said at
the time.
S3 (06:46):
I was pretty shattered.
S2 (06:47):
Before we get on to your personal story, I just
wanted to ask you this question. Um, Jim Chalmers, the treasurer,
is a very close colleague of yours personally as well
as professionally. And he he had this to say about you.
He said some people are tough or empathetic, and Katie's both.
That's her superpower. Nobody in politics is irreplaceable. But in
(07:09):
our team, she comes the closest. How do you react
to that?
S3 (07:12):
Well, it's a very generous statement from Jim. Um, you know,
I work really closely with him. He's, you know, a
wonderful colleague to have. And I think it works incredibly
well that the treasurer and finance minister are close colleagues
and friends as well. And I do count him as
a friend. So I find that very generous. Um, I
(07:35):
find people making nice comments about me a bit difficult,
you know, like, um, I just feel like I go
to work and I try to do the best every day,
but Jim helps me in the work I do, and
he helps me be a better person at the work
I do. So I see it as a mutually beneficial relationship.
S2 (07:52):
Let's come to your your story, which your your your
family story, your life story which you were generous enough
to share with with us through the interviews that we've
been doing. Um, the way you were raised, our fam
was really interesting. I mean, your parents were originally from England,
but your mum Betsy was a real force. I know
you're very close to both of your parents, but Betsy
(08:13):
had this penchant for bringing in waifs and strays, human
and animal. Um, can you tell us a bit about
how that was in your childhood and how that's rubbed
off on you, in how you approach your life today?
S3 (08:26):
Yeah. So I feel very fortunate for the upbringing I had.
Both my parents were very community minded, very involved in
their community. I think some of that might have come
from the fact that they had no family around and
friends when they first turned up here in Australia, and
I can't imagine how difficult that would have been. I
(08:46):
try to place myself in that situation, going to a
country across the world with family and friends who you
spoke to or wrote to, and weeks would pass.
S2 (08:57):
And I forgot to mention there. Or perhaps you could.
Your mum had five children under the sorry, four children
under the age of five, didn't she? When she. In
the early 70s. Yeah.
S3 (09:06):
That's right. So she. When, when she was. When they
moved to to Canberra. Mhm. Um my parents had my
sister and I and then the two boys pretty close.
So there was four children under five adopted. They were
both adopted but we were all close in age. Um,
and yeah, I can't imagine how isolating that could have
been for mum at home with four children. She made
(09:29):
friends in the neighbourhood, but she also went about, um,
you know, building up groups, whether it be mother and
children groups in those days or, or getting herself known
and that then through as we got older, that became
a bit more well formalised, even though it's still pretty
informal to today's standards.
S2 (09:47):
So just just to be clear, so you she was actually,
I think, giving mothers in crisis that she knew through
her networks of informal respite care, in respite, respite care
of their children, wasn't she? She was giving them breaks.
They they'd turn up at your family dinner table.
S3 (10:03):
Yeah. They would. So I think she recognised in other women,
perhaps some of the isolation and pressure she had when,
when she first, you know, had arrived with very young children.
She was a nurse by background. So I think a
lot of that sort of caring compassion came through through that.
And probably why she wanted to be a nurse. But yeah,
she would recognise a mum in need and all of
(10:26):
a sudden we'd have a couple of new faces at
the dinner table with dad looking a bit confused about
what was going on. You couldn't do it now, obviously
with all the rules in place, but I know she
ensured that through doing that, sometimes we would the children
would stay with us for weeks. It wasn't like overnight
they would stay for a period of time until the mum,
(10:47):
often a single mum, would get her life back in order.
And I know for a fact that she kept families
together through that. Um, in situations where children might have
been removed, she was able to kind of band aid
and support them and let those mothers know that they
mattered and people cared about them, which I think was
really instructive for us as well, who in comparison had
(11:11):
a pretty privileged life. I mean, Mum and Dad didn't
have a lot, but we never went without and we
had two loving parents, we had close community, we had
parents who cared about us, our education, and so being
exposed to families that where life was a lot tougher, um,
was really a good and important lesson for us.
S2 (11:33):
So as well as these children who'd occasionally come in
and out, there was a menagerie happening in your in
your childhood home, wasn't there? Tell us a bit about that.
S3 (11:42):
Yeah. So mum was I mean, this is part of
why it's so sad that we lost her so early.
Because I would love to go through some of this
now as more of an adult and kind of work
through what went on. But we had a lot of animals. Um,
mum and dad. Dad was an animal lover. Not quite
as much as mum. And, um, you know, we had
lambs at one time. We had three lambs that mum
(12:06):
had saved from an abattoir. We had a kangaroo. Um,
we had mice, we had guinea pigs, we had cats.
I don't think we had any birds from memory at all. But, um. Yeah,
there was always a lot going on. Um, and the
kangaroo obviously was. And the sheep were a new element
that we had in our residential back garden. Um, they
(12:28):
eventually went on to farm. Mum would find them all
homes as well. So the sheep went on to being
mascots and and hobby farms and the kangaroo. Eventually Tippi
the kangaroo went to the animal park in Canberra when
she got too old to be in a backyard.
S2 (12:44):
I think you told me a story. I didn't put
this in the article, but I think you told me
that you and your mum went back to visit Tippi,
and you went a bit too early and Tippi got
a little bit upset.
S3 (12:52):
It was heartbreaking and I don't think we went back again.
I don't think I went back again because Tippi had
a special blanket, and she had a little bit of
the blanket that she kept in her pouch. And, um,
and when we went back, Kangaroos make quite a quite
a sound for their mother or who they think their
mother figure is. And it's. Yeah, it was it was awful.
(13:13):
And we all went running away crying. But Tippi went
on to have a very nice life. They did. And
she had lots of her own children and things, and
we recovered eventually.
S2 (13:24):
Uh, your father was a big influence on you, too.
We shouldn't leave him out of the story. Your father, Charles,
and he was a, you know, became a lawyer and
worked in the parliamentary office, I think, for a while.
Parliamentary library. When the health department, he was an activist
for prisoners rights. Um, so he was another big influence
on you, wasn't he?
S3 (13:43):
He was perhaps. Um, he certainly had a big impact
on my politics. So dad was a Labour Party member
and very vocal about, um, you know, what he thought
was important when it came to politics? Mum was always
a bit more far left wing. She was. She had
a nuclear disarmament sticker on.
S2 (14:02):
There for labour. You tell.
S3 (14:02):
Me. Yeah. She had a nuclear disarmament sticker on the
back of our car which used to drive my dad mad. But, um,
so dad had that influence on me. But, yeah, he
was more introverted than mum. Um, you know, she was
a stronger personality in the relationship, but he was a
quiet achiever as well. So, of course, he was a
wonderful father, but he he was a lifeline counsellor, telephone
(14:24):
counsellor for many years and actually became a trainer of
the counsellors over time. And also at that time Canberra
didn't have a jail. And so we shipped all our
prisoners to New South Wales, to Goulburn or Long Bay.
And often that disconnected families, again, usually disadvantaged families. So
dad would um he became an advocate. He worked for,
(14:47):
you know, ensuring that family connections were kept. So it
was similar to some of the work mum was doing,
but using his legal expertise to, to help that. Um,
but yeah, again, the message I think they gave to
all of us children was, you know, it's not just
enough to be in your community. You must be a
part of it and you need to contribute. And that
was something that we obviously was exposed to from a
(15:09):
pretty young age.
S2 (15:22):
In the. I know you've recounted before, uh, the story
of the loss of your then fiance, Brett Seaman, in
a horrendous bike accident, I think when you were just 20, 26,
almost 27. Um, I was struck with your reflections on
what the long term effects were of that on you.
And for those who haven't yet read the piece, can
(15:43):
you just briefly tell us again what happened and how
that sort of reverberated through your later philosophy in life.
S3 (15:51):
Yeah. So that day, I mean, it's still sort of,
you know, pretty stark in my memory, um, as it
would be on any day that people go through where
you come to a part of, uh, almost a fork
in the road and you go off on a completely
different direction than you thought you were heading in. Um,
so that that that day we were coming home from, uh,
(16:13):
Brett was a cyclist. He'd been riding a essentially a
long ride down in around Mount Beauty, around that part
of the world. And we'd driven up.
S2 (16:22):
New South Wales south coast.
S3 (16:23):
Um, yeah, we were at the South Coast, so sort
of halfway on our way home, and we'd stopped out
just for a weekend, you know, recovery. And, um, Brett
went out for a ride. A recovery ride, essentially. Um, and,
you know, we'd arranged to meet at the beach, um,
about two hours later, um, and I went to our
(16:44):
designated meeting spot and he never turned up. And after
about a I don't know, it would have been a
half an hour or an hour, I got worried and
sort of started the process of looking for him, which
which took a lot of that afternoon, um, driving around
looking for him. And at some point during the afternoon,
there was a message on the radio that said that
(17:05):
the police were looking for a family of a cyclist
who'd been killed that day, and I was driving. I
heard that, and I knew straight away it was him.
S2 (17:13):
You were pregnant at the time?
S3 (17:14):
Yeah. So I was in the sort of first trimester
of pregnancy. We were looking obviously, you know, before that moment,
we were looking forward to, um, that year because it
would be the year our baby would be born. Life
would go to the next level stage, I guess, of
a relationship. Um, and so we were in a very
we were in a very good place. And, you know,
(17:36):
I guess the world was before us. We we felt
very lucky in all of that. And then obviously this
happened and it changed. Um, Well, it obviously it ended
his life and changed mine forever.
S2 (17:47):
And what do you think changed in you after that,
that that carried you forward? Because of course you then
repartnered a few years later, you now have three children,
two more with your current partner, Dave Skinner. Um, very
happily together. Yeah. Um, but what lingered, do you think,
(18:09):
from that tragedy in terms of how it forged your
approach to difficult times or obstacles or challenges that you,
that you come up against? Um.
S3 (18:20):
Well, I do feel very fortunate, obviously, that I've. I
found love again. And, and we, you know, built a
new family from just a family that Abby and I,
which was Brett and my daughter Abby, who was born
in August of that year. Uh, look, I think for me,
I went to the lowest place. I think a person
(18:40):
can go through that. And it was a mix of things.
Obviously sudden loss and accident like that is shocking for anyone,
but I think I actually not only went through that,
but then got really very depressed, um, through that. And
so I, I think I got so unwell that I,
(19:01):
it wasn't if there can be a normal response to
that type of incident. Um, mine wasn't quite like that.
So I became very unwell and I needed a lot
of help to recover from that. But I think if
the question you're going to is really about how how,
you know, how do I get through it? How did
(19:22):
it shape me?
S2 (19:23):
What did you then carry through, I suppose in all
the years since. Because it's been how many years now?
S3 (19:28):
Um, it's 20, 27, 27.
S2 (19:31):
Yeah, yeah.
S3 (19:32):
Um, yeah. That it was really. Well, I learnt to
be in incredibly tough because I think if you climb
out of a hole like that and you're able to
get yourself together, which I did, and it took months.
If actually it took years if I'm entirely honest. Um,
you know, it takes a lot to to take you
(19:53):
back there. So it gives you perspective. It gave me
strength ultimately. And I am generally an optimist by nature.
And so I always look for the good that comes
out of things. This was, you know, incredibly difficult. I
wouldn't wish it on anybody, but, um, it did help
shape me and, you know, make, I don't know, made
(20:13):
me grateful, made me strong, made me independent. I didn't
imagine I would be a single mother living on my
own in a house, you know, with, you know, no
certainty of income and all those things. And I had
to pull myself together and and get myself together because
someone with a baby was relying on me. You know,
I couldn't just wallow around and and think, well, this
(20:35):
is the end of it then, because I had this
gorgeous little baby who, um, who needed me and had
no one else.
S2 (20:41):
Well, I think as we spell out in the piece,
you then went on to have a career in the
union movement, then into the Act Legislative Assembly from there
into the Senate. And I think the rest were most
of us, most of us know, obviously there were some
bumps along the road there. But then you, your third child, Evie,
you you and she went quite public recently about the
(21:02):
fact that she, she is on the spectrum for autism
and ADHD and a couple of other things, and obviously
that has special challenges. She's a lovely kid. Mhm. Um,
having met her, I mean, what's your message to parents
who might have a child who's just received a diagnosis
like this. Um, you know, what have you learned, uh,
(21:23):
since that became the reason why you started to understand.
That's the reason why she has her particular challenges.
S3 (21:30):
Yeah. What would I say? I mean, I think the
message from me out of all of it is never
stop advocating for your child. And I think most parents
do that, But I feel, um, once we understood the beautiful, complex,
wonderful package that is Evie. It helped us be better
parents for her. Um, and, you know, I don't beat
(21:52):
myself up about much or have regrets or look backwards because,
you know, life's too short and all of that. But
I do feel if if we were able to get
her sorted and understood a bit earlier than we did, um,
you know, life would have been easier for her and
probably for the rest of the family as well, because she,
you know, everyone knows the stories of a problem child
or a child that you can't quite get your grip
(22:13):
on as a parent. She was that she was a
handful for me and her dad. Um, but you know,
now that we actually understand how a brain works, how
she works, what she finds hard, what she finds easy, um,
we're able to be, you know, much better. And it's
a much better life for her, too, that she's not
beating herself up thinking, you know, she's not normal if
(22:35):
there is a normal in this world. And so it's
been a much better since we got the diagnosis, but
it was hard getting to that point, and I feel
like I know government systems. I know, um, you know,
how to book assessments. I kind of knew there was
something not right, but it still took me years and
years to get through.
S2 (22:54):
You know, given that, you know, you've got such a
busy life and you're managing all this as well, I
think I think that's something that, um, a lot of
adult Australians probably have to try and work into their lives. Um, Katie,
you adore animals. Um, we talk a little bit about
your magpie family in the piece. We won't go into
that just now, but you've tried to persuade Dave to
(23:16):
have more than one dog. He's not having it, is he?
S3 (23:17):
No. No, he's.
S2 (23:20):
I think you said you'd like to have 100.
S3 (23:23):
Well, I'd like to have a dog rescue. Um. One day.
Dave's not that keen on it. Um, he loves animals, too,
but he. He thinks we're an only dog household, and so. Yeah,
I have to. I have to work with him. He's the,
you know, co-captain of the household. So I can't just
bring in what I'd like in animals. Um, but, yeah,
(23:45):
I love I love any animal.
S2 (23:47):
Let's talk a little bit of politics. Um, one of
your jobs. Minister of the Public service. That's shaping up
as a big election issue. Uh, the opposition leader, Peter Dutton,
has indicated that he'll make savings by, um, reversing some
of the 20% or so growth of the federal public
service on your watch. And in addition, the plans to
(24:08):
wind back working from home for public servants and perhaps
reducing the emphasis on diversity and inclusion. Um, how much
do you think the electorate is going to focus on
any of this? And has he got a point, um, that,
you know, really government can't afford to be growing at
this pace, um, when the economy is still trying to
(24:30):
sort of get itself up, you know, up to speed
a bit more.
S3 (24:34):
Yeah. Look, I think the public service will be front
and center in this campaign. Clearly, it's going to be
a contested space. I mean, in response to the criticisms
that Mr. Dutton has made about the size of the
public service, I would say, um, you know, it's it's
resource properly. Now, I don't think it was resourced properly
under the former government. And the other big difference is
(24:56):
there was an overreliance on contractors and consultants. So there
was a lot of labour hire, a lot of temporary
workers that bought in. And so the quality of service matters,
and I think that does matter to Australians. I think
if you talk to them about, would you like to
spend ten minutes longer on the phone waiting to get Centrelink? Um,
if you're a veteran, do you want your claim allocated
(25:18):
in two weeks or a year? I think those things
do matter and it's about making that real for people. Um,
I think one of the good things about government is
that you shouldn't you shouldn't be so noticeable in people's
lives that they're frustrated with dealing with you. But if
if you did sit down and say to people, these
are all the way the Commonwealth government actually touches your life.
I think they would be surprised because it isn't as
(25:41):
obvious as engaging with your state or local government. And
I think the public has a right to have good
quality public services. And I think that is a difference
between us and the opposition.
S2 (25:54):
But does he and his spokesperson, Jane Hume, have a
point when they say that, uh, too many people working
from home denies the opportunity for younger people to absorb
lessons from the workplace, that to some extent, you compromise
connectivity and creativity and teamwork. Is there a point there?
S3 (26:15):
Well, I think both on the diversity front and the
working from home front, we have to accept there's a
little bit of importing of overseas policies going on at
the moment that seem to be being pulled into Australia.
And I would say, look, let's have a policy debate
about what's right for Australia, not what might be happening
in the US, for example. No matter how politically attractive
that may be. But the other point is, I think
(26:38):
hybrid working some, working from home, some in the office
is going to be a feature of modern workplaces. The
public service has to attract talent. We have to attract
it outside capital cities. We have to attract it in
rural and regional parts of Australia if we want the best,
and the hybrid arrangements works for that. We saw a
lot of it in Covid. I think the average working family,
(27:03):
if you've got two parents or or two adults working,
working from home arrangements can really improve that whole kind
of unit's happiness if they are able to manage things
that suits them. So I've asked the public Service commissioner
about a month or two ago to have a look
at how working from home arrangements are working in practice,
(27:28):
so that we can get sort of up to date advice.
This is the first, I think we've had a year
of the new enterprise agreement being in place, which only
gives people the right to ask for it. I heard
some from my opposite number saying that they can demand it.
They can't. Uh, and let's just have a look. Let's
have a good let's use evidence. Let's let's be clear
about what works, what doesn't work for the employer and
(27:51):
what works what doesn't work for employees and then make decisions.
But I can't see a world where some working from home,
particularly if you're in a role that can do that,
isn't part of the employment question.
S2 (28:05):
Now, you're close to Prime Minister Albanese as well as
your economic colleague, Jim Chalmers. Um, why is he going
so badly in the polls? What is it? You see
him up close? What do you what do you see
that the public isn't seeing that that voters seem to
be turning off?
S3 (28:23):
Well, I mean, I'll let others talk about polls. I work,
as you say, closely with Anthony. Um, and I, you know,
I see a very decent, hard working man who spends
his whole day, every day trying to work out how
to make good decisions in the best interests of the country. Um,
he's he's funny, he's hard working. He's hugely loyal and supportive. Um,
(28:49):
you know, he'll always. If he thinks you've had a
hard day, he'll give you a call. He'll come and
pop in to see you. Um, he looks after people.
He's excellent. Um, with relationships. He values them. He. He
treats people incredibly politely and decently. And he works really,
really hard, you know? Um, and he never stops thinking. Um.
(29:13):
So I really enjoy. I've been very privileged to work
with great people in politics. Not always the case, but
I feel very privileged to work closely with him and
help him implement his agenda.
S2 (29:25):
I will just touch briefly on the on the Brittany
Higgins saga. We won't go into the ins and outs
of it, um, because of course there's still court cases running.
But you did have a bit of a bad run
with your entanglement with it because you were accused of
misleading the Senate. There was a bit of a dust
up between you and Linda Reynolds on this recently. She
(29:46):
still thinks she's waiting. Well, she still wants an apology
from you for the way she felt that you had
run the attack on her over the way she'd handled that. Um,
do you feel you still owe her an apology, or
do you feel you've given her one?
S3 (29:59):
Well, look, I said to her last week in estimates,
and I'd already said it in the chamber. Like, I
am sorry that people got, um, hurt through this. You
know what happened to Miss Higgins at Parliament? Um, I
don't think anyone you know who's watched that story or
been involved in some way ever understood exactly where, you know,
(30:23):
the the twists and turns that that case would take.
But no one went in with the intention to hurt anybody? Um,
you know, I asked reasonable questions. I've gone back and
I've had a look at them, you know, an alleged rape.
Or if you agree with Justice Lee's decision, a rape
happened in Parliament House, in a minister's office. And I
(30:43):
think it would have been incredibly unusual for there to
be no questions asked about that. And following on from that,
we have taken so many steps and made so many
changes to make sure a situation like that never happens
again in Parliament House. And I've been kind of central
to to putting in place those reforms, because I think
(31:04):
Parliament House should be the safest workplace in the world
and certainly the safest workplace in the country. And that
wasn't the case on that particular day.
S2 (31:13):
Are you going to be campaign spokesperson again?
S3 (31:15):
Yes, yes. Jason Clare and I are joint. Yes. We're
we're doing the joint roll through the campaign.
S2 (31:23):
I've been reading, uh, a lot of criticism about the
government's spending. Now, I know you and Jim Chalmers, uh, you,
you know, put together back to back surpluses. You've talked
about $92 billion in savings that you made. You're the
finance minister, of course. So you're right across all this stuff. Um,
but we know that going forward, it's going to be
(31:45):
deficits again. And there's been increasing drumbeat of criticism from
the business community and some independent economists, um, about the
rate of government spending. And I noticed just this morning
I was reading the Financial Review, uh, saying it's been
the biggest spending increase for a first time government since
(32:05):
the Whitlam era 50 years ago. Um, have you been
spending like drunken sailors, as the opposition says? And is
it time to exert a bit more discipline?
S3 (32:14):
Well, I won't be certainly listening to an opposition that
wants to spend $600 billion on nuclear power reactors, um,
and basically cut services in order to deliver it as
a criticism of our approach to the budget. Uh, look,
we've we inherited a budget mess, that's for sure. And
we've been methodically working through it and making sure we're
(32:35):
resourcing areas that Australians value properly. We've had to find
savings and we've done that. As you say. We've had
a surplus, two surpluses, we've lowered debt, we've lowered interest
on that debt, which is really important. And we've found
room for things like Medicare, for housing programs, for education
and training and support for defence in aged care. If
(33:00):
you look across the board, these were areas that had
been neglected and people were suffering out-of-pocket costs in health,
you know, school agreements, school resourcing, public schools not being
resourced properly. I think most people would agree that should
be a pretty big priority for the government. Defence was
in a mess in terms of its capability. We've sorted
through that. We've done a lot of work and that
(33:24):
has involved making decisions about where investments go. Now, I
would challenge our record on sorting through all that and
and investing in those priority areas with an opposition whose
policy to date is nuclear power reactors and cuts to
Medicare and that to pay for it. So there is
a contrast in our budget approach. Um, you know, we've
(33:47):
been responsible, I think, with the budget. But we also
have to accept that we're going through big demographic change
where the pressures on the budget are real NDIS, aged care,
health care, um, those areas need to be resourced properly
and we get the fact that you have to be
efficient and effective with taxpayers dollars. Um, you know, we
go through this every IRC meeting, line by line about
(34:10):
where we can find savings, where we can reprioritize to
make sure. But I think ultimately, at the end of
the day, if you want services funded properly, we need
to find room in the budget for it.
S2 (34:20):
Well, I guess it'll be over to the electorate soon
enough to make its choice and make a decision. Thank
you so much for joining us, Senator Katy Gallagher.
S3 (34:28):
Thanks very much, Deb.
S1 (34:31):
That was Senator Katy Gallagher being interviewed by journalist Deborah
Snow on the latest good weekend talks. If you enjoyed
this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever
you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more
compelling conversations. Coming soon! We chat with celebrity chef Curtis
Stone on the eve of the Melbourne Food and Wine Festival,
(34:52):
starting March 21st. Good Weekend Talks is brought to you
by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age proud newsrooms
powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney
Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good Weekend
Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery,
with technical assistance from Taylor Dent. Our executive producer is
(35:16):
Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Greg
Callahan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
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