November 21, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, we talk to Adam Collins. The Dandenong-raised, London-based commentator, broadcaster, podcaster and author is back in Australia for another summer of cricket, and also to promote his new book, Bedtime Tales for Cricket Tragics (after last year helping Aussie all-rounder Glenn Maxwell write his memoir, The Showman). But Collins also had another life in politics. A long-time Labor Party member, he spent his 20s in Canberra on the staff of treasurer Wayne Swan, and as media adviser to then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Joining us from the first Test in Perth, this episode is hosted by chief cricket correspondent for The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald, Dan Brettig, the pair reflecting on the series to come, including a few choice Ashes predictions (or wishes).
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S1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:36):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Adam Collins, the London based Victorian cricket commentator, broadcaster, podcaster
and author is back in Australia for another summer of
cricket and also to promote his new book, Bedtime Tales
for Cricket Tragics, which was written with his good mate
and co-host Jeff Lemon and is being released next week.
(01:00):
But Collins, who was once named Cricket broadcaster of the
year in the UK and who last year helped Australian
all rounder Glenn Maxwell write his memoir, the Showman, also
had another life in politics. A long time Labour Party member,
he spent his 20s in Canberra on the staff of
Treasurer Wayne Swan, as well as being a media adviser
(01:21):
to then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Recorded on the eve
of the first test against England in Perth. After a
morning spent watching the Aussie team warm up in the nets.
Collins is joined on today's episode by his old friend
and chief cricket correspondent for The Age and The Sydney
Morning Herald, Dan Braddock. The pair, reflecting on the series
yet to come and offering a few choice ashes predictions. Thanks, Conrad,
(01:47):
and welcome to Adam Collins.
S2 (01:49):
Hello, Dan. Nice to sit opposite you. To do something
like this.
S1 (01:53):
Tell me, Adam, how did you get into politics?
S2 (01:55):
Um, politics for me was something that I drifted into.
Then got very involved very quickly. So, um, a bit
of a well-worn path, really. Joined the Labour Party, actually,
before I went to uni, I was in the States
doing my final year of high school as an exchange
student and, uh, joined the Victorian ALP online. And then
(02:17):
when I got back to Australia and I was setting
up to go to Monash University, and upon arriving there,
it took like ten minutes to join the Labor Club,
you know what I mean? And one thing led to another.
S1 (02:26):
What year? What year was that like? What was going
on in politics at the time that made you want
to join?
S2 (02:30):
Yeah, that's 2003. So I'm at high school. I started
high school in 1997. So a year after the Howard
government was elected. It's kind of hard to pinpoint one
thing now, but through the the duration of the Howard government,
as a kid in high school, I suppose you get
exercised by various things. Um, remember the 2001 election? I
was living abroad by that point, but that was the
(02:52):
election that was defined by what was going on with
refugee policy. Uh, famously the Tampa and all the various
bits and pieces that sadly followed thereafter. It was not
long after September 11th as well, which wasn't the same thing,
but was all bundled up as far as the way
the politics were working at the time. And by the
time I was reaching that stage where I was an
(03:12):
adult and doing my own thing, I felt like it
was something that I was always destined to do. Really,
to be involved in politics in some way. I'd always
read it was tearing through the newspapers or reading various
political books, whatever I get my hands on when I
was a kid. Uh, and yeah, it felt like the
right place for me to be, and it proved correct.
(03:34):
I got great opportunities through politics professionally, but really, more
importantly than that, got to work on some great campaigns
and make some friends that will be lifelong relationships. So
even though I'm way removed from it now, I'm still
involved in the margins of the party, but not in
sort of day to day, week to week, uh, fashion.
Because I can't be from 10,000 miles away living in London. However, um,
(03:56):
the people who I became friends with in my late
teens and early 20s. They're the people among the people
I'll be friends with for the rest of my days.
S1 (04:03):
You were one of the many, I guess young Turks
swept into Canberra with Kevin oh seven. Um, and you
were learning. Well, you were growing up at the same
time as you were dealing in some pretty big issues in, in,
in Canberra. So what what what do you reflect on
that element of, I guess growing up in and around Canberra.
S2 (04:22):
It was pretty rugged and at the time I didn't
appreciate that it was it took until 2 or 3
years out of it to start considering what my 20s
had been, which was slavish devotion to the cause, right,
and to the people I was working with and so on.
Which is fine. No, no, um, no regrets or any
of that. But it was an enormous commitment at a
(04:45):
young age. Uh, I went up to Canberra at 23.
On reflection, I was too young to have the jobs
that I had. That came a little bit after that
in my mid 20s, getting to do more senior roles,
Rolls through until when we were voted out in 2013.
So I was 29 when it all finished, and that
now to me, as a 41 year old sounds preposterous
(05:06):
that I did all of these various things and they
were incredible things to be part of at that young
age when, you know, we often talk about it in
the context of cricketers, now, don't we, about their prefrontal
cortex hasn't completely fused yet when they're playing for Australia
from time to time. Um, well, so it was for me. Uh,
but it didn't impede my ability to sort of learn
on the job. Learn quickly. I was always good at, um, learning, uh,
(05:30):
and applying what I'd learned in various parts of my
life even before then. But, yeah, it I wasn't out
of I wasn't sort of out of my depth at all.
I don't think it didn't feel like I was. Anyway, um,
but it took until some years later to realise that
it took a massive toll on me emotionally, and took
quite a while to, I think, adjust from not being
a day to day political operative.
S1 (05:52):
Sport is obviously a part of life in politics and
in and around Canberra. Nowhere near to the same degree
it is for you now. But tell us a bit about, um,
in particular, the New Years function that the cricket team
has Kirribilli House every year these days.
S2 (06:08):
Yeah, well, that goes back some time. 2009. There was
a a final being played at the Gabba between Brisbane
and Carlton. And by that point, uh, with Rudd, I
was kind of his de facto sports advisor as well,
which was a great opportunity because it got it got
me into the hustle and bustle of policy a bit
more than, uh, than the, uh, than the, the show
that I was involved in. By the show, I mean the, the,
(06:30):
the comms, politics, media hustle and bustle. This was more, um,
more more on the policy side that that role that
I would moonlight in, you could say. And one of
the things I did in it was go to sporting
events with Rudd. The 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing was
an early taste of that. Then. Yeah, lots of football,
cricket and so on. And at the in that aforementioned
(06:51):
football final on the way back, we the Carlton had uh,
seated a big lead in the last quarter, Brisbane ran
over the top of them. Rudd had had a great night.
He was in the circle with the Brisbane team singing
the song at the end. We didn't know this then,
but he's he'd been flashed up on the screen many,
many times on television celebrating goals, and some of those
pics still come back to haunt me to an extent
because I look ridiculous sitting next to him. Um, but
(07:13):
I digress. No. On the way back I just pitched
to him. I said, you know what we could do
in the summer? Given how much you're enjoying the sport caper,
why don't we try and do something at Kirribilli House
on New Year's Day with the with the cricket team
and whoever's touring that year? And he's like, you know,
go for it. Do do what you need to do.
And spoke to Cricket Australia and they were thrilled at, uh,
being able to do something like that, um, in that
(07:35):
gorgeous house at Kirribilli. And so it's been a tradition thereafter.
So it was just a honestly, it was nothing more
than a, you know, a brainwave. And I just happened
to be at the right place at the right time
with the PM in a good mood. And now it's
turned into a, I wouldn't say, a major part of
the cricketing summer. I wouldn't say it's as, but it
is a tradition. Like, if that were to stop now,
would it be a thing? And the teams are there
(07:56):
every year. I mean, last year I was at Kirribilli
for it. I was a guest of the government at
that particular function and watching, uh, Sam Constance having played
his first test match, what was it a week before? Uh, and, uh,
you know, working. Well, I say working with talking at
great length. It was um, it was quite the thing.
And it's not often that players are able to do
that in that unguarded way. You know, it's not a
(08:18):
media event per se. So it's a yeah, it's a
nice little thing that now happens each year and happy
to have some background with it.
S1 (08:25):
There's obviously a debate, um, that continues to bubble on
all the time about don't get sport into politics, don't
get politics into sport. You obviously were bestride both those
those worlds. What do politicians think of of sport. Like
what's it, what's its um um, what's its role for
them and what's it, what's its value?
S2 (08:45):
Well, the first thing to say is the keep politics
away from sport typically is when a politician doesn't want
athletes saying things they don't like. right? That tends to
be the rhythm of these things. I'm not saying that
one side of politics is always guilty of that, but
that's in my experience, following it and covering it how
it goes. How do politicians interpret sport? It's a great
(09:06):
opportunity to connect with people who don't typically pay attention
to the bouncing ball of daily politics. Uh, you know,
sport is far more popular than politics, let's be honest. Um,
so that might sound cynical, but I also think it's
quite important from a democratic perspective, to be where your
voters are to be, where your constituents are. And oftentimes
your constituents are ensconced within sporting clubs or within sporting teams.
(09:28):
And politicians do an important role, play an important role
in advocacy and making the case for budget funding. For instance,
if a new set of cricket nets are erected, it's
probably because the local club has made representations to the
local Member of Parliament, who in turn has made a
budget bid to the minister. And that's how the that's
how the baby is made. Right. So that is important
(09:50):
that you're able to be seen to be delivering, to
sport in that way locally, I think at a higher
level though, um, uh, politicians at a senior level who
are governing the country, they see it as a great
way to connect on a on a much higher level, um,
being engaged in ways that they are engaged, watching national
teams play or watching the grand final or whatever it is,
(10:12):
it does provide an extra layer of connection. I know
that that's seen cynically by many people. I know that
when prime ministers go out and present trophies and so on,
they get booed, which I think, by the way, is
a great part of the national tradition. I don't think
that's a partisan response from a crowd. You'll often see
it reported. Well, the Premier or the or the Prime
Minister was booed by the crowd. That means this, that
and the other. You know, I reckon I'd be the
(10:34):
PM if I were not, because I don't have any
regard for the Prime Minister. It's a tradition to boo
the PM when they go out and and present an award.
It's just part of the way we're brought up, and
I think part of the Australian culture that, um, that
we like to, to keep politicians in check. And there's
nothing wrong with that.
S1 (10:48):
Yeah. When you, um, uh, like, you're getting towards the
end of the time in Canberra, you're not quite a
gap year, but you were. You're at the London Olympics
and you're a, um, you're basically managing a sport at the,
at the Olympics. How does that how does that come about?
And was it good to, um, I guess get out
of the bubble and be at those games?
S2 (11:09):
It was I'm a massive olympiahalle, as you know. Dan. So, um,
when they were asking for applicants for six month contracts
for jobs, I was on, you know, basically a sabbatical
from politics. That's how I described it at the time.
I'd made commitments to Wayne Swan, who was my boss,
and I remain very close to as a mentor. Um, and,
(11:29):
you know, always will. I'd said to him that I
was just burnt out and that was the truth of it.
By the middle of 2011, I had spent four years
running around doing what one does in politics. Um, and
I think it had taken, as I said before, it's
taken a toll without me realizing it, and I just
knew I needed to be out of there for a while.
I knew the London Olympics were on. I'd been in
(11:51):
London in 2005 when they'd won the bid. Um, famously,
I was in Trafalgar Square that day, which was an
amazing life experience when when the bid came through and
they had won. So I'd always wanted to be there
for it. And I didn't anticipate going to London and
getting a job, working on the organising committee. That was
an absolute bonus and knowing it was a short term thing.
(12:12):
The greasy pole of any employment, any place of employment
where you're thinking about the next job or the next thing,
there was none of that. All we had to do
was deliver an amazing event and a great Olympic Games
and the best Olympics ever, and that type of thing.
And playing a small role in that machine was lovely
and restorative for me at the time. Um, and more generally,
(12:32):
it meant that I got a chance to live in
London for that 12 month period, and I felt like
I hadn't quite gotten that out of my system. So
when politics ended, I had one eye to how I
could get back to the UK. And, you know, one
thing leads to another wife, kids, mortgage, London life. That's
very much the one I occupy now more than a
decade on.
S1 (12:52):
Yeah. Um, obviously the, the, uh, the, the Rudd, Gillard
Rudd government comes to an end late in 2013. Uh,
and we actually meet in December 2013 at the Adelaide
Test match through mutual friend Matt Clemow. Uh, you were
clearly at that stage thinking about the next thing. You weren't.
You weren't sure what, um, what what was what was
(13:15):
coming next for you?
S2 (13:16):
Um, yeah. That's right. I'd written an essay for Wayne
in his name. The backstory is that in the last
year of the what was the Gillard then Rudd government,
it was pretty obvious that it was going to take
something remarkable for the government to be returned at the election.
It was within the realms of possibility that Tony Abbott
could have blown himself up politically. Sure. But, you know,
if you were if you were simulating that election, um,
(13:39):
it would have gone the way of the opposition most
times from where we'd been in the polls and the
difficulties we'd had politically with the not so much being
a minority government that actually served the government quite well,
I felt. But um, but, um, issues that we collected
along the way and, and, um, and a general sense
that our time was up. So I spoke to Wayne
in December of 2012, around the time that and this
(14:01):
will probably be remembered by about six people, but we
ditched our return to surplus promise at the very end
of 2012, which was a massive political issue at the
time that the Labour government had committed to returning to
the returning to surplus in 2013. And, you know, we'd
stuck to that promise and Wayne had to jettison it,
and it was a big deal for him. He hated
doing it. Um, and it was another, um, it was
(14:22):
another sign that we were struggling politically, that this promise
had to go, even though he handled it very well. Um,
in hindsight, anyway, I, over the Christmas period, said to him,
this might be the last few months you have in
this role now, your political career could be coming to
an end pretty soon because you'll be, um, part of
the outgoing government. And who knows what happens after that.
You know, maybe you should play a few more shots
(14:43):
on a wider variety of issues in this dismount period
if it is the end. And he's like basically agreed.
And he gave me the latitude to write some things.
And I immediately seized that opportunity and wrote an essay
which was released on the 25th of January 20, 2013.
It must have been so, yeah, the day before Australia Day. Uh,
(15:03):
and it was, uh, an essay that was like 4000 words,
which we reduced back to about 1500 words so it
could go in the op ed pages of The Age
and the Herald, which ended up there for on the
front of the page or front of the paper. Sorry.
As a, as a newsprint. Um, that in this essay
I'd linked together with Wayne, um, 80 years since the
Bodyline series, which was coming up to that, um, 3233 anniversary, uh,
(15:27):
latent republicanism and the extent to which what happened at
Bodyline informs Republican sentiment at the time, and the call
to action from Wayne that we should use this as
an opportunity to renew our call for an Australian republic,
that the debate had gone cold. And as Deputy prime
minister and treasurer, he wanted to kick start the debate
and it could not have gone any better. The coverage
was amazing. It led the TV news, I reckon that
(15:49):
night as well. It was just one of those things
that right place, right time, right story. And it worked. And,
you know, Wayne was encouraging of me to do more
of that type of thing. We did a few more
Republican things in in in 2013. But the reason I
raised all of that, it planted a seed in the
back of my mind that, oh, maybe writing about cricket
might not be a bad shout. I mean, yes, this
was political in its in its leaning. But fundamentally, I
(16:11):
was writing a a potted history of what happened in
a cricket series between Australia and England. Right. Um, so
when it all ended politically, when kind of considering what
I might do, not necessarily with the rest of my life,
but what was next anyway? Um, it was rattling around
in my head that I might, might do something in
relation to cricket. And the first thing that I wrote, um,
(16:33):
ended up enjoying remarkable timing where the piece was about, um,
it was one of those things. And I'm sure you've
been there, Dan, where it's like 10:00 at night. I
had some thoughts in my head. I committed them to paper.
Before I knew it, I had a, you know, a column.
It probably wasn't very good, but it was a column.
And the next day I had these relationships in politics
in Canberra, in the media, which I was able to
(16:54):
leverage to get it published by the ABC, which I
didn't really expect. When I started the morning.
S1 (16:59):
Was the drum, wasn't.
S2 (16:59):
It? It was the drum. Yeah. Rest in peace. I
don't know if that's there at all anymore. Certainly parts
of The drum don't exist in the way that it
used to. Um, and yeah, that opinion section, um, was
there for all to write on. And um, the next
day George Bailey scored 100. So Australia woke up to
a piece that was talking up George Bailey's prospects as
a test cricketer, as he'd made a ton for the
(17:20):
Aussie one day team in India. And it just took off.
And I guess I had a fair bit of support
from friends and whatnot in the media who pushed it around.
And the ABC very kindly at the time, gave me
the chance to write about the ashes of 1314. And again,
I just sort of stumbled into this gig as a
columnist without really meaning it. And that was around the
same time I was, um, was meeting people like yourself,
(17:40):
and I thought that it took me a while to
really have a go at it full time. I had
another job in the middle of that, But yeah, I
think then I knew that this was the next thing
I really wanted to have a crack at.
S1 (17:50):
Yeah. Well, I was going to say in reference to
that that, you know, proximity is a big thing in
any job or career choice. And the fact that, um,
I remember you and I spending I think it was
Easter 2014, uh, weekend, we spent quite a bit of
time together. We did. And I think we might even have, uh,
dreamed up the greatest season. That was podcast. I reckon we.
S2 (18:08):
Went. I reckon we went to the library, didn't we? Yeah.
I've got a feeling that you and I in the
middle of this fairly debauched Easter weekend, you know, uh,
out and about that kind of, you know, out and
about the dance floor or whatever it was. Um, I
think we spent an afternoon in the, in the Melbourne
Cricket club library, um, looking at what source materials they
were on this idea at the time for a book, which, um,
morphed into a podcast a few years later with our
(18:29):
friend Shannon Gill.
S1 (18:30):
Yeah. So fast forward, it was about 18 months, I think, um,
there where you were. Yeah. You were working for the
for the for the super fund. You were finding it
a little bit of a drag. Uh, and then you decide, right.
I'm taking the plunge. I'm going to the West Indies
in 2015, 15 and, um, I'll, you know, I'll figure
out if I can get enough work.
S2 (18:49):
Yeah. So, I mean, it wasn't that I found Superdrag
in the slightest. It was more just like, I think
I was restless. I'd worked in this high octane environment
of federal politics. You know, you're sort of living in
your suit six and a half days a week. It's
5 a.m. wake ups, and you know, you're not going
to bed till after Lateline again. Rest in peace. Um,
you are wired and there is an addictive element to that.
(19:12):
And I've learned quite a lot about my personality and
my hardwiring in recent years as well. You know, I've
talked about it on my podcast that last year I
learnt formally that I have a degree of neurodivergence, uh, ADHD,
to be precise, which I knew nothing about, nothing about
until a couple of years ago. You know, ADHD was
the kid who pulled the teacher's hair, not the kid
that was, in my case, doing quite well in school
(19:33):
and university and that type of thing. Um, but I
suppose it comes in all different types of forms. But no,
the reason I state that is, is that when I was, um,
in a slower paced environment, I struggled to remain stimulated,
and I sort of sensed that having worked on the
other side of journalists when in politics, that becoming a
journalist myself might, um, might meet that, um, meet that
(19:56):
criteria and scratch that itch. And so it proved. I mean,
I've been in the industry now for 11 years. And
what you say there, that jump off point when I'd
finished in super was giving myself a couple of months
run up to see what was what, um, still very
nervous about my voice and my writing. By my voice,
I mean what I was writing. I've since gone into broadcasting,
but then it was more about what I was, um,
(20:17):
getting commissions to do in magazines and that type of thing. And. Yeah, um,
deciding that, you know what, if I'm going to do this,
I've got to go all in. So all in meant, um,
a 27 hour flight to the other side of the world, um,
holing up in any accommodation I could get my hands
on sharing accommodation with people like yourself, who kindly looked
after me in the early days, and then just tearing
(20:37):
into it and getting any work that was available to
me and seeing what would happen. And it proved to
be a fairly eventful, uh, what was it because the
Windies series started in end of May and I was
still on the road at the end of September when
Australia finished up in England. So it was a really
intense period of time where I where I made a
lot of the connections and friendships which, which endure and
(20:58):
have been the, the, the basis of the work that
I've done since.
S1 (21:10):
One quick, funny digression from that West Indies tour was,
I think it was the first day of the first test. And, um,
given that we were on the other side of the
world from Australia, uh, and, uh, you know, you felt
like you had a bit of time to, to write.
I think it got to about 9 p.m. that night.
And I asked you, how you going? Because we were
sharing some accommodation and, uh, and you're like, I'm going. Really? Well, I'm,
(21:33):
I'm absolutely, um, dominating. It's going great. I've almost finished
my notes.
S2 (21:39):
Well, that's about right. You know, that that sounds like
that's definitely how I was then. And to an extent
sometimes how I can be now with preparing to write.
You know, there's that. It's a Lincoln quote, isn't it, that, um,
that three quarters of cutting down the tree is sharpening
the knife? Something like that. I'm probably misquoting, but the
point stands is that, um, you know, I spend an
awful lot of time sharpening that knife because I wasn't
(22:00):
sure of my written voice and my tone, and I
was second guessing myself, and I felt the best way
to offset that was by being so prepared to have
every angle covered, um, that it would come out coherently
in the end. And I think most of the time
it did. I look back at stuff I wrote in
those first couple of years, when I was a hustling,
bustling freelancer in the papers and the magazines. And, you know,
(22:20):
that's pretty good work, I reckon. It took me a
while to find my stride, find my phrasing and that
type of thing. But once I got into it, I
absolutely loved it. But I spent way, way, way too
much time in, you know, in hotel rooms or whatever
at two in the morning, having not filed. That was
an affliction early on which I, um, thankfully no longer have.
I mean, I can be a little bit, um, I
can be a little bit, um, inclined to procrastinate if
(22:43):
I've got a written piece, which is why I crave deadlines.
And again, that's an ADHD thing. People with my hardwiring
need deadlines because if you allow us to, um, drift
on and on, we will drift on and on. That's
just the way that it works, unfortunately. So having done
books the last couple of years, the best thing for
me with those books has been knowing that I had
(23:03):
to have the manuscript filed by this date or the
book wouldn't exist. So I think that's that's a helpful
thing for me. And I, I know that now and
I can manage myself better accordingly.
S1 (23:11):
In amongst all of that learning and sort of getting
started in working in cricket media. Tell me a bit
about getting to know Geoff Lemon and then getting into
the partnership with him that you you've still got.
S2 (23:24):
Yeah. So Jeff and I met online first, which is
not unusual really these days, is it? But, um, he
and I had the same idea at a different time
in England in 2012 when I was living there during
the Olympic Games. I, uh, occasionally was listening to a
a broadcast called Test Match Sofa, which was what it said.
It did what it said on the tin. Really. It
(23:45):
was commentary of test cricket by a bunch of people
sitting on a sofa in London with my dear friend
Daniel Norcross, who works for.
S1 (23:51):
Pirate radio, essentially.
S2 (23:52):
Pirate radio. He works for BBC proper these days, The
real thing. And we're rooming this week in Perth, actually,
which is quite nice. Full circle moment with him and me.
But no, he was making that that programme, that pirate radio,
and I thought that Australia was crying out for it.
And I very, very loosely pitched it to the ABC
in 2013, having had a really fun day out with
a few ABC. Um, those who were working at the
(24:14):
ABC at the time, friends who love their cricket, um,
I think Steve Kinane, Francis Leach, Richard Hynes, and I
think I pitched at the time that, oh, this could
be a product in Australia as well. It could be
like a red button cricket commentary alternative. If you're listening
to the ABC, you can have the normal commentary or
you can have the sweary one. I thought I'd, you know,
do that and it'd be a be a laugh. Um,
(24:36):
Jeff had the same idea around the same time, he
started a thing called White Line Wireline wireless, which I
really admired. What he had done, which was exactly the
same as Test Match Chauffeur, when, as it turns out,
the ABC had stopped going to overseas series at the time.
And I thought that was wrong, so did Geoff. There
was a a spirited debate in the, in the, in
the national Senate on it. Actually, Senator then Senator John Faulkner, um,
(24:58):
was um, was on his feet in Parliament discussing how
it could possibly be that the ABC hadn't sent, um,
hadn't sent a commentary team to India in 2013. And
Geoff had got wind of that and started his own
pirate radio. So, yeah, that's where it began. Our joint
interest in that. We met, uh, at the Sydney Test
in 2014, at the end of that ashes series, my
(25:19):
first writing about the game, we identified pretty early on
that there wasn't much going on by way of cricket podcasting,
and it took a while. We ended up making a
cricket podcast for the ABC for a few years. Sadly,
I don't think they ever really knew we existed. Certainly
a couple of people in there were like, you know,
it was clear that we were way off Broadway, like
(25:39):
we were not a priority, which is fine. We were
new guys starting out, but, um, we kind of realized
over time that we would need to at some point, uh,
go it alone. And yeah, that that next phase started
in 2018, which was the same time that I bought
the radio rights for the the test series in Pakistan,
which is a whole other story, really. Um, and yeah,
by that point, we realized that if we were going
(26:00):
to do this podcast properly, we had to go all in.
And 6 or 7 years later, we have been very
much vindicated in that, in that decision, because now the
the podcast gets made about 250 times a year, all
different types of shows within the podcast feed. And yeah,
we're really proud of the contribution that we make to
the conversation within that and the different types of people
(26:21):
we have on with us, including yourself and the different
types of stories that we're able to tell as an
independent media outlet. And, uh, you know, it's recognized fairly
widely that we we do well with it. And, um, yeah,
it's a source of pride.
S1 (26:32):
We're talking to the cricket broadcaster and podcaster Adam Collins,
who is also an author And, uh, you and Jeff
have just released a book called Bedtime Tales for Cricket Tragics,
which is it's a bit of a compilation of a
segment on your show called Story Time.
S2 (26:49):
Yeah. That's right. We make a weekend spin off show,
which got really big in the pandemic when there was
nothing to talk about about the game. Um, so we
were telling the stories of the history of the game.
It all started when, um, one of our patrons subscribers
sent in a bespoke number about cricket as his crowdfunded contribution.
It was 2 to 2 or two for 22 as
(27:13):
a tribute to Richie Benaud. And, um, you know, one
thing led to another, as it does online. Um, that
one turning point meant that a whole bunch of our
patrons decided to change their contributions to cricketing numbers, which
became the catalyst for us to tell these stories we've
told about, gosh, I don't know, maybe 1500 stories now
on the program in long form style. And we picked
(27:34):
out 22 of them to feature in what I'm calling
the first edition of Bedtime Tales for Cricket Tragics because, um,
there was so much great stuff left on the cutting
room floor with this book in terms of which stories
we had to omit that I'm fairly bullish that if
this does well, and we had a lovely launch in
London last week, and we've got one in Melbourne next week,
that if this does what we want it to do,
(27:55):
it could be the type of thing that we try
and roll out each Christmas, which would be nice.
S1 (27:58):
Yeah, absolutely. And um, it's it's actually a nice little
segue to the other book that you've done or the,
the well, I should say third book because you also
did one with Wayne Swan, didn't you? Yeah.
S2 (28:12):
That was that 2014 year when I was just starting
to write. And it was helpful that, um, Wayne wanted
me to ghost it for him, and it was helpful
that I had that, um, discipline of writing a book then.
Or in the end, I didn't write the whole thing.
We broke it up into a couple of chunks, but
I wrote a really big slab of it and, um,
then then, yeah, last year I went through that ghosting
(28:32):
process with a cricketer for the first time.
S1 (28:34):
Yeah. And that cricket is Glenn Maxwell now? Uh, obviously
when you, when you work in, in broadcasting, um, or
sports media and you're traveling around a lot, you're spending
a lot of time in close proximity to the, um,
to the cricketers or the athletes, uh, you know, sometimes
you'll hit it off with someone, you will, you'll build
a you'll build a friendship, you'll build something that's a
(28:56):
little bit more than a, um, than a professional, uh, relationship.
So tell me a bit about you and Glenn and
the fact that, uh. Yeah, you're kind of, um, kindred
spirits in a way.
S2 (29:06):
Yeah, yeah, maybe we are. Um, you're right in your analysis,
by the way, in your question there about it's impossible
to remain completely dispassionate about all of your subjects. I
reckon I'm pretty good with it, like, I reckon when
I'm commentating on test cricket, as I will be through
the summer. I don't get too wrapped up in the
stories of the players when narrating the action, but it
(29:28):
would be disingenuous to say that you don't feel more
attached to some than others because you get to know them.
It's the human condition that you develop bonds and links
with people. And so it proved with Glenn. You know,
I think that it probably started when I was writing
these vitriolic articles about the injustice of how he'd been
treated by the test selectors, going back some time now.
(29:48):
And he'd had he'd already listened to our show a bit. Um,
he said he listened to it quite a lot, actually.
And then we interviewed him at the 2019 World Cup.
Now what I didn't know, and what I found fascinating
through the book is that when he and I did
that interview in in 19 with Geoff in Bristol before
that tournament, it wasn't long before he went into a
full on depressive spiral, like a far more intense than
(30:09):
people knew, like way, way worse than people realised at
the time. Um, thankfully he got on top of it. And,
you know, as you would hope most people would have
the means to do, of course, he had the the
support network of being an Australian cricketer, which you can't
dispute the privilege there. But, you know, it's interesting. You
go back and listen to that interview and you probably
wouldn't pick up on any signs that, um, that he
(30:31):
was about to go through a really, really tough period
in his life. And it'd be naive to say that
that was cricket related alone. Um, you know, people don't
go into the funk that he went into because you're
not making runs. It's again, that's a naive, um, way
of analysing the condition. So, yeah. Um, anyway, you press
(30:51):
fast forward and through the, the time of the pandemic and,
you know, as these things do, right, you just become
better friends with people over time. And he and I
had spoken about making a documentary about his life. I
had this recollection of a documentary that Shane Crawford subjected
himself to in 2003, where he shot a lot of
it himself on a handycam. It was a really brilliant
(31:13):
bit of work. The late Rob Dixon made with him. Um,
and I thought that could work really well for Maxie
because he's never been shy about sharing his own story. Right.
He's brilliant at, like, um, at giving himself. And you've
interviewed him lots as well. He gives loads at an interview.
Far more than the average bear, right? He's very happy
to trust people with his story, whatever the story is
(31:34):
at the time, you know, um, and I thought with
that personality trait, he'd be brilliant at self shooting and
that type of thing. And the pandemic got in the
way and it never really got off the ground. And
that's fine. And then he came to me a couple
of years on from that and said, what about a book?
And it just happened to be that, um, when we
started those conversations, he went off to the 2023 World
(31:55):
Cup and had the most extraordinary tournament. And at the
end of that, it wasn't like Glenn and I talking
about a book. It was more like publishers coming to
him saying, you should do a book. And we were
able to still stick to that year in the life
of to a point, because there was a really neat
narrative arc where 360 days before, not quite 365, but
360 days before the 201 not out at Mumbai, the
(32:19):
greatest one day innings ever played. Um, he, um, snapped
his ankle in two so badly that there was risk
of amputation of his foot again, which wasn't known publicly
at the time. So there was this way of charting
his recovery from a career threatening injury beyond career threatening foot,
threatening injury through and to the point where he was
(32:39):
performing at the very peak of his powers exactly a
year after that, and we were able to use that
as the x axis. And the y axis was everything
else in his life, and the creative challenge and the
project that we worked so hard on. How do we
sprinkle the stories of his whole life through the x axis?
How do we find anchors to what's happened in the
(33:01):
12 months that we're identifying as this most important period,
but not to us not to brush over stuff that
happened when he was a kid or when, you know,
he'd had these ups and downs through his professional career.
So we we tried to merge the two things together,
and we were really proud of how it came up. Um,
you know, Gideon Haig, who I think everyone that works
in cricket has such a high regard for, in his
(33:23):
review of the book, describes the passage about him talking
about that. 201 not out as like Phar Lap, describing
how he how Phar Lap won the 1930 Melbourne Cup,
which is a great line, right? Like you never. You
rarely get to hear an athlete, um, voice. Just how
they've done something in such great detail. And maxi being maxi,
he remembers everything. He was able to give me so
(33:46):
much detail that it was an absolute joy to pull
it together.
S1 (33:48):
And I would hope that that, uh, that friendship and
that relationship, um, endures, uh, off into the future when
he's no longer playing cricket.
S2 (33:56):
Yeah. I've got no doubt that it will. And I'm
very proud of him as a human. Like I'm proud
of him as a friend. Um. Full stop. I love
that he's, like, loves the game so much. What's misunderstood
about some cricketers? They play the game at a really
high level, but they don't like it very much. He's
the opposite. He's you know, it's no exaggeration to say
that he's like, watched clips of my off breaks and
provides me feedback, you know, and and cares. It's not
(34:19):
for effect. He's a he's a, he's a cricket obsessive
and um, in the best traditions of cricket badgers and indeed,
you know, we we called this book Bedtime Tales for
Cricket Tragics. He's probably the kind of guy who would
tear through it in a sitting because he's he likes
the game so much. Which is lovely.
S1 (34:34):
We can't finish without talking a bit about the ashes series,
which has, uh, has just gotten underway in Perth. The
cricket's already started, but how do you see the five
test matches? How do you how do you think it's
going to go?
S2 (34:45):
Well, I was really lucky. 20 years ago to be
at the first test match at Lord's in the 2005 series,
which is widely seen as the best, uh, well, arguably
the best ever, certainly one of the greatest ever. And
this is the next most anticipated. So, you know, sitting
here in the build up to that and the build
up has been extraordinary. Um, the, the, the, the volume
(35:06):
of words that have been devoted to speculating about what
might happen, unlike any other series I've been involved in
in my decade plus now in journalism. Uh, what I
would say is that test cricket could do with a
series like 2005. Again, the challenges for test cricket that
sit not far beneath the surface about the future of
the game, about the challenge presented by not just domestic
(35:29):
T20 cricket as we know it at the moment, but
the proliferation of leagues, the price signals for players, the
probable influx of Saudi Arabian money, which no one's really
talking about. These will present challenges to test cricket as
a format. It won't eliminate it. Nothing will kill test cricket,
but it'll compromise what we love. A big growing global
(35:51):
game with test cricket at its middle. Um, this could
change quite quickly. Could change in the next 5 to
10 years. And what could help, uh, slow that change?
Or maybe deaden the hardest edges or something like that,
or the sharpest edges would be another belting series akin
to what we had when India visited last year. So yeah,
we should be so lucky to have a series like 2005,
(36:13):
but mostly as a test cricket, uh, devotee. And I
want this to be a part of my life forever. Uh,
a series that's competitive all the way to Sydney, uh,
would be a blessing. So, you know, let's hope for that. And,
you know, my parochial interest to put well to one side,
because my greatest interest of all when it comes to
the game is seeing test cricket especially continue to not
(36:34):
just survive, but prosper for generations to come so that
my little girls can grow up to love it as
much as I do.
S1 (36:40):
I've already said to a couple of colleagues, I'm kind
of hoping or predicting that we'll have another two two scoreline.
What's your prediction?
S2 (36:48):
Yeah. Well, my I've been trying to studiously avoid predictions.
I've been predicting that not a single test will reach
a fifth day. Um, owing to the pictures that are
likely to be served up. The two two thing. You know,
there's been two twos in the last. Would I be
right in saying the last three ashes series in England? Um,
which have been great. All three of them have been,
you know, most nourishing or no. 15 England won three two,
(37:09):
didn't they? But in 2019 and 2023 series that we've
covered together, they've not been a series that's been live
in Australia between these nations going into the fifth test
since 1982 83. That's the last time a series was live.
The ashes was live going into the final rubber, if
you like. Um, that's that's a that'd be a tremendous
(37:30):
thing if we all rock up at Sydney for the
New Year's test match, and we all go to Kirribilli
House on New Year's Day, as we mentioned before, and
these two teams have gone straight for strike to that point. Um,
it would be a massive story. It would be a
story that would be the type that would sit in
one of these books in 150 years time. That's the
nature of ashes series, as they they tend to anchor
so much else of the cricketing conversation. So that's what
(37:53):
I'm desperate for. I mean, however, it starts here in Perth,
so long as both teams get a really good look
and both get a chance to get into the series,
I think it'll be compelling viewing. It'll mean record attendances,
record viewership and hopefully inspiring generations to come. That test
cricket is for them.
S1 (38:12):
Adam, it's been a real pleasure to, uh, reflect on
the past ten years or so. Um, thanks for joining us. And, yeah, let's, uh,
hope that it's a terrific ashes series for everyone to watch.
S2 (38:23):
Indeed. Thanks, Dan, a pleasure.
S1 (38:27):
That was cricket.
S3 (38:28):
Journalist and author and former political fixer Adam Collins, with
chief cricket correspondent Dan Bretag. For the latest Good Weekend talks.
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate
and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning
in for more compelling conversations. Coming soon! We chat to
former AFL player Mitch Brown, who came out as bisexual
(38:51):
in August, becoming the first publicly queer player in the
league's 129 year history. Good Weekend Talks is brought to
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newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe
Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
(39:12):
Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by
Tim Mummery. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick
is head of audio and Melissa Stevens is the editor
of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:36):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Adam Collins, the London based Victorian cricket commentator, broadcaster, podcaster
and author is back in Australia for another summer of
cricket and also to promote his new book, Bedtime Tales
for Cricket Tragics, which was written with his good mate
and co-host Jeff Lemon and is being released next week.
(01:00):
But Collins, who was once named Cricket broadcaster of the
year in the UK and who last year helped Australian
all rounder Glenn Maxwell write his memoir, the Showman, also
had another life in politics. A long time Labour Party member,
he spent his 20s in Canberra on the staff of
Treasurer Wayne Swan, as well as being a media adviser
(01:21):
to then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Recorded on the eve
of the first test against England in Perth. After a
morning spent watching the Aussie team warm up in the nets.
Collins is joined on today's episode by his old friend
and chief cricket correspondent for The Age and The Sydney
Morning Herald, Dan Braddock. The pair, reflecting on the series
yet to come and offering a few choice ashes predictions. Thanks, Conrad,
(01:47):
and welcome to Adam Collins.
S2 (01:49):
Hello, Dan. Nice to sit opposite you. To do something
like this.
S1 (01:53):
Tell me, Adam, how did you get into politics?
S2 (01:55):
Um, politics for me was something that I drifted into.
Then got very involved very quickly. So, um, a bit
of a well-worn path, really. Joined the Labour Party, actually,
before I went to uni, I was in the States
doing my final year of high school as an exchange
student and, uh, joined the Victorian ALP online. And then
(02:17):
when I got back to Australia and I was setting
up to go to Monash University, and upon arriving there,
it took like ten minutes to join the Labor Club,
you know what I mean? And one thing led to another.
S1 (02:26):
What year? What year was that like? What was going
on in politics at the time that made you want
to join?
S2 (02:30):
Yeah, that's 2003. So I'm at high school. I started
high school in 1997. So a year after the Howard
government was elected. It's kind of hard to pinpoint one
thing now, but through the the duration of the Howard government,
as a kid in high school, I suppose you get
exercised by various things. Um, remember the 2001 election? I
was living abroad by that point, but that was the
(02:52):
election that was defined by what was going on with
refugee policy. Uh, famously the Tampa and all the various
bits and pieces that sadly followed thereafter. It was not
long after September 11th as well, which wasn't the same thing,
but was all bundled up as far as the way
the politics were working at the time. And by the
time I was reaching that stage where I was an
(03:12):
adult and doing my own thing, I felt like it
was something that I was always destined to do. Really,
to be involved in politics in some way. I'd always
read it was tearing through the newspapers or reading various
political books, whatever I get my hands on when I
was a kid. Uh, and yeah, it felt like the
right place for me to be, and it proved correct.
(03:34):
I got great opportunities through politics professionally, but really, more
importantly than that, got to work on some great campaigns
and make some friends that will be lifelong relationships. So
even though I'm way removed from it now, I'm still
involved in the margins of the party, but not in
sort of day to day, week to week, uh, fashion.
Because I can't be from 10,000 miles away living in London. However, um,
(03:56):
the people who I became friends with in my late
teens and early 20s. They're the people among the people
I'll be friends with for the rest of my days.
S1 (04:03):
You were one of the many, I guess young Turks
swept into Canberra with Kevin oh seven. Um, and you
were learning. Well, you were growing up at the same
time as you were dealing in some pretty big issues in, in,
in Canberra. So what what what do you reflect on
that element of, I guess growing up in and around Canberra.
S2 (04:22):
It was pretty rugged and at the time I didn't
appreciate that it was it took until 2 or 3
years out of it to start considering what my 20s
had been, which was slavish devotion to the cause, right,
and to the people I was working with and so on.
Which is fine. No, no, um, no regrets or any
of that. But it was an enormous commitment at a
(04:45):
young age. Uh, I went up to Canberra at 23.
On reflection, I was too young to have the jobs
that I had. That came a little bit after that
in my mid 20s, getting to do more senior roles,
Rolls through until when we were voted out in 2013.
So I was 29 when it all finished, and that
now to me, as a 41 year old sounds preposterous
(05:06):
that I did all of these various things and they
were incredible things to be part of at that young
age when, you know, we often talk about it in
the context of cricketers, now, don't we, about their prefrontal
cortex hasn't completely fused yet when they're playing for Australia
from time to time. Um, well, so it was for me. Uh,
but it didn't impede my ability to sort of learn
on the job. Learn quickly. I was always good at, um, learning, uh,
(05:30):
and applying what I'd learned in various parts of my
life even before then. But, yeah, it I wasn't out
of I wasn't sort of out of my depth at all.
I don't think it didn't feel like I was. Anyway, um,
but it took until some years later to realise that
it took a massive toll on me emotionally, and took
quite a while to, I think, adjust from not being
a day to day political operative.
S1 (05:52):
Sport is obviously a part of life in politics and
in and around Canberra. Nowhere near to the same degree
it is for you now. But tell us a bit about, um,
in particular, the New Years function that the cricket team
has Kirribilli House every year these days.
S2 (06:08):
Yeah, well, that goes back some time. 2009. There was
a a final being played at the Gabba between Brisbane
and Carlton. And by that point, uh, with Rudd, I
was kind of his de facto sports advisor as well,
which was a great opportunity because it got it got
me into the hustle and bustle of policy a bit
more than, uh, than the, uh, than the, the show
that I was involved in. By the show, I mean the, the,
(06:30):
the comms, politics, media hustle and bustle. This was more, um,
more more on the policy side that that role that
I would moonlight in, you could say. And one of
the things I did in it was go to sporting
events with Rudd. The 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing was
an early taste of that. Then. Yeah, lots of football,
cricket and so on. And at the in that aforementioned
(06:51):
football final on the way back, we the Carlton had uh,
seated a big lead in the last quarter, Brisbane ran
over the top of them. Rudd had had a great night.
He was in the circle with the Brisbane team singing
the song at the end. We didn't know this then,
but he's he'd been flashed up on the screen many,
many times on television celebrating goals, and some of those
pics still come back to haunt me to an extent
because I look ridiculous sitting next to him. Um, but
(07:13):
I digress. No. On the way back I just pitched
to him. I said, you know what we could do
in the summer? Given how much you're enjoying the sport caper,
why don't we try and do something at Kirribilli House
on New Year's Day with the with the cricket team
and whoever's touring that year? And he's like, you know,
go for it. Do do what you need to do.
And spoke to Cricket Australia and they were thrilled at, uh,
being able to do something like that, um, in that
(07:35):
gorgeous house at Kirribilli. And so it's been a tradition thereafter.
So it was just a honestly, it was nothing more
than a, you know, a brainwave. And I just happened
to be at the right place at the right time
with the PM in a good mood. And now it's
turned into a, I wouldn't say, a major part of
the cricketing summer. I wouldn't say it's as, but it
is a tradition. Like, if that were to stop now,
would it be a thing? And the teams are there
(07:56):
every year. I mean, last year I was at Kirribilli
for it. I was a guest of the government at
that particular function and watching, uh, Sam Constance having played
his first test match, what was it a week before? Uh, and, uh,
you know, working. Well, I say working with talking at
great length. It was um, it was quite the thing.
And it's not often that players are able to do
that in that unguarded way. You know, it's not a
(08:18):
media event per se. So it's a yeah, it's a
nice little thing that now happens each year and happy
to have some background with it.
S1 (08:25):
There's obviously a debate, um, that continues to bubble on
all the time about don't get sport into politics, don't
get politics into sport. You obviously were bestride both those
those worlds. What do politicians think of of sport. Like
what's it, what's its um um, what's its role for
them and what's it, what's its value?
S2 (08:45):
Well, the first thing to say is the keep politics
away from sport typically is when a politician doesn't want
athletes saying things they don't like. right? That tends to
be the rhythm of these things. I'm not saying that
one side of politics is always guilty of that, but
that's in my experience, following it and covering it how
it goes. How do politicians interpret sport? It's a great
(09:06):
opportunity to connect with people who don't typically pay attention
to the bouncing ball of daily politics. Uh, you know,
sport is far more popular than politics, let's be honest. Um,
so that might sound cynical, but I also think it's
quite important from a democratic perspective, to be where your
voters are to be, where your constituents are. And oftentimes
your constituents are ensconced within sporting clubs or within sporting teams.
(09:28):
And politicians do an important role, play an important role
in advocacy and making the case for budget funding. For instance,
if a new set of cricket nets are erected, it's
probably because the local club has made representations to the
local Member of Parliament, who in turn has made a
budget bid to the minister. And that's how the that's
how the baby is made. Right. So that is important
(09:50):
that you're able to be seen to be delivering, to
sport in that way locally, I think at a higher
level though, um, uh, politicians at a senior level who
are governing the country, they see it as a great
way to connect on a on a much higher level, um,
being engaged in ways that they are engaged, watching national
teams play or watching the grand final or whatever it is,
(10:12):
it does provide an extra layer of connection. I know
that that's seen cynically by many people. I know that
when prime ministers go out and present trophies and so on,
they get booed, which I think, by the way, is
a great part of the national tradition. I don't think
that's a partisan response from a crowd. You'll often see
it reported. Well, the Premier or the or the Prime
Minister was booed by the crowd. That means this, that
and the other. You know, I reckon I'd be the
(10:34):
PM if I were not, because I don't have any
regard for the Prime Minister. It's a tradition to boo
the PM when they go out and and present an award.
It's just part of the way we're brought up, and
I think part of the Australian culture that, um, that
we like to, to keep politicians in check. And there's
nothing wrong with that.
S1 (10:48):
Yeah. When you, um, uh, like, you're getting towards the
end of the time in Canberra, you're not quite a
gap year, but you were. You're at the London Olympics
and you're a, um, you're basically managing a sport at the,
at the Olympics. How does that how does that come about?
And was it good to, um, I guess get out
of the bubble and be at those games?
S2 (11:09):
It was I'm a massive olympiahalle, as you know. Dan. So, um,
when they were asking for applicants for six month contracts
for jobs, I was on, you know, basically a sabbatical
from politics. That's how I described it at the time.
I'd made commitments to Wayne Swan, who was my boss,
and I remain very close to as a mentor. Um, and,
(11:29):
you know, always will. I'd said to him that I
was just burnt out and that was the truth of it.
By the middle of 2011, I had spent four years
running around doing what one does in politics. Um, and
I think it had taken, as I said before, it's
taken a toll without me realizing it, and I just
knew I needed to be out of there for a while.
I knew the London Olympics were on. I'd been in
(11:51):
London in 2005 when they'd won the bid. Um, famously,
I was in Trafalgar Square that day, which was an
amazing life experience when when the bid came through and
they had won. So I'd always wanted to be there
for it. And I didn't anticipate going to London and
getting a job, working on the organising committee. That was
an absolute bonus and knowing it was a short term thing.
(12:12):
The greasy pole of any employment, any place of employment
where you're thinking about the next job or the next thing,
there was none of that. All we had to do
was deliver an amazing event and a great Olympic Games
and the best Olympics ever, and that type of thing.
And playing a small role in that machine was lovely
and restorative for me at the time. Um, and more generally,
(12:32):
it meant that I got a chance to live in
London for that 12 month period, and I felt like
I hadn't quite gotten that out of my system. So
when politics ended, I had one eye to how I
could get back to the UK. And, you know, one
thing leads to another wife, kids, mortgage, London life. That's
very much the one I occupy now more than a
decade on.
S1 (12:52):
Yeah. Um, obviously the, the, uh, the, the Rudd, Gillard
Rudd government comes to an end late in 2013. Uh,
and we actually meet in December 2013 at the Adelaide
Test match through mutual friend Matt Clemow. Uh, you were
clearly at that stage thinking about the next thing. You weren't.
You weren't sure what, um, what what was what was
(13:15):
coming next for you?
S2 (13:16):
Um, yeah. That's right. I'd written an essay for Wayne
in his name. The backstory is that in the last
year of the what was the Gillard then Rudd government,
it was pretty obvious that it was going to take
something remarkable for the government to be returned at the election.
It was within the realms of possibility that Tony Abbott
could have blown himself up politically. Sure. But, you know,
if you were if you were simulating that election, um,
(13:39):
it would have gone the way of the opposition most
times from where we'd been in the polls and the
difficulties we'd had politically with the not so much being
a minority government that actually served the government quite well,
I felt. But um, but, um, issues that we collected
along the way and, and, um, and a general sense
that our time was up. So I spoke to Wayne
in December of 2012, around the time that and this
(14:01):
will probably be remembered by about six people, but we
ditched our return to surplus promise at the very end
of 2012, which was a massive political issue at the
time that the Labour government had committed to returning to
the returning to surplus in 2013. And, you know, we'd
stuck to that promise and Wayne had to jettison it,
and it was a big deal for him. He hated
doing it. Um, and it was another, um, it was
(14:22):
another sign that we were struggling politically, that this promise
had to go, even though he handled it very well. Um,
in hindsight, anyway, I, over the Christmas period, said to him,
this might be the last few months you have in
this role now, your political career could be coming to
an end pretty soon because you'll be, um, part of
the outgoing government. And who knows what happens after that.
You know, maybe you should play a few more shots
(14:43):
on a wider variety of issues in this dismount period
if it is the end. And he's like basically agreed.
And he gave me the latitude to write some things.
And I immediately seized that opportunity and wrote an essay
which was released on the 25th of January 20, 2013.
It must have been so, yeah, the day before Australia Day. Uh,
(15:03):
and it was, uh, an essay that was like 4000 words,
which we reduced back to about 1500 words so it
could go in the op ed pages of The Age
and the Herald, which ended up there for on the
front of the page or front of the paper. Sorry.
As a, as a newsprint. Um, that in this essay
I'd linked together with Wayne, um, 80 years since the
Bodyline series, which was coming up to that, um, 3233 anniversary, uh,
(15:27):
latent republicanism and the extent to which what happened at
Bodyline informs Republican sentiment at the time, and the call
to action from Wayne that we should use this as
an opportunity to renew our call for an Australian republic,
that the debate had gone cold. And as Deputy prime
minister and treasurer, he wanted to kick start the debate
and it could not have gone any better. The coverage
was amazing. It led the TV news, I reckon that
(15:49):
night as well. It was just one of those things
that right place, right time, right story. And it worked. And,
you know, Wayne was encouraging of me to do more
of that type of thing. We did a few more
Republican things in in in 2013. But the reason I
raised all of that, it planted a seed in the
back of my mind that, oh, maybe writing about cricket
might not be a bad shout. I mean, yes, this
was political in its in its leaning. But fundamentally, I
(16:11):
was writing a a potted history of what happened in
a cricket series between Australia and England. Right. Um, so
when it all ended politically, when kind of considering what
I might do, not necessarily with the rest of my life,
but what was next anyway? Um, it was rattling around
in my head that I might, might do something in
relation to cricket. And the first thing that I wrote, um,
(16:33):
ended up enjoying remarkable timing where the piece was about, um,
it was one of those things. And I'm sure you've
been there, Dan, where it's like 10:00 at night. I
had some thoughts in my head. I committed them to paper.
Before I knew it, I had a, you know, a column.
It probably wasn't very good, but it was a column.
And the next day I had these relationships in politics
in Canberra, in the media, which I was able to
(16:54):
leverage to get it published by the ABC, which I
didn't really expect. When I started the morning.
S1 (16:59):
Was the drum, wasn't.
S2 (16:59):
It? It was the drum. Yeah. Rest in peace. I
don't know if that's there at all anymore. Certainly parts
of The drum don't exist in the way that it
used to. Um, and yeah, that opinion section, um, was
there for all to write on. And um, the next
day George Bailey scored 100. So Australia woke up to
a piece that was talking up George Bailey's prospects as
a test cricketer, as he'd made a ton for the
(17:20):
Aussie one day team in India. And it just took off.
And I guess I had a fair bit of support
from friends and whatnot in the media who pushed it around.
And the ABC very kindly at the time, gave me
the chance to write about the ashes of 1314. And again,
I just sort of stumbled into this gig as a
columnist without really meaning it. And that was around the
same time I was, um, was meeting people like yourself,
(17:40):
and I thought that it took me a while to
really have a go at it full time. I had
another job in the middle of that, But yeah, I
think then I knew that this was the next thing
I really wanted to have a crack at.
S1 (17:50):
Yeah. Well, I was going to say in reference to
that that, you know, proximity is a big thing in
any job or career choice. And the fact that, um,
I remember you and I spending I think it was
Easter 2014, uh, weekend, we spent quite a bit of
time together. We did. And I think we might even have, uh,
dreamed up the greatest season. That was podcast. I reckon we.
S2 (18:08):
Went. I reckon we went to the library, didn't we? Yeah.
I've got a feeling that you and I in the
middle of this fairly debauched Easter weekend, you know, uh,
out and about that kind of, you know, out and
about the dance floor or whatever it was. Um, I
think we spent an afternoon in the, in the Melbourne
Cricket club library, um, looking at what source materials they
were on this idea at the time for a book, which, um,
morphed into a podcast a few years later with our
(18:29):
friend Shannon Gill.
S1 (18:30):
Yeah. So fast forward, it was about 18 months, I think, um,
there where you were. Yeah. You were working for the
for the for the super fund. You were finding it
a little bit of a drag. Uh, and then you decide, right.
I'm taking the plunge. I'm going to the West Indies
in 2015, 15 and, um, I'll, you know, I'll figure
out if I can get enough work.
S2 (18:49):
Yeah. So, I mean, it wasn't that I found Superdrag
in the slightest. It was more just like, I think
I was restless. I'd worked in this high octane environment
of federal politics. You know, you're sort of living in
your suit six and a half days a week. It's
5 a.m. wake ups, and you know, you're not going
to bed till after Lateline again. Rest in peace. Um,
you are wired and there is an addictive element to that.
(19:12):
And I've learned quite a lot about my personality and
my hardwiring in recent years as well. You know, I've
talked about it on my podcast that last year I
learnt formally that I have a degree of neurodivergence, uh, ADHD,
to be precise, which I knew nothing about, nothing about
until a couple of years ago. You know, ADHD was
the kid who pulled the teacher's hair, not the kid
that was, in my case, doing quite well in school
(19:33):
and university and that type of thing. Um, but I
suppose it comes in all different types of forms. But no,
the reason I state that is, is that when I was, um,
in a slower paced environment, I struggled to remain stimulated,
and I sort of sensed that having worked on the
other side of journalists when in politics, that becoming a
journalist myself might, um, might meet that, um, meet that
(19:56):
criteria and scratch that itch. And so it proved. I mean,
I've been in the industry now for 11 years. And
what you say there, that jump off point when I'd
finished in super was giving myself a couple of months
run up to see what was what, um, still very
nervous about my voice and my writing. By my voice,
I mean what I was writing. I've since gone into broadcasting,
but then it was more about what I was, um,
(20:17):
getting commissions to do in magazines and that type of thing. And. Yeah, um,
deciding that, you know what, if I'm going to do this,
I've got to go all in. So all in meant, um,
a 27 hour flight to the other side of the world, um,
holing up in any accommodation I could get my hands
on sharing accommodation with people like yourself, who kindly looked
after me in the early days, and then just tearing
(20:37):
into it and getting any work that was available to
me and seeing what would happen. And it proved to
be a fairly eventful, uh, what was it because the
Windies series started in end of May and I was
still on the road at the end of September when
Australia finished up in England. So it was a really
intense period of time where I where I made a
lot of the connections and friendships which, which endure and
(20:58):
have been the, the, the basis of the work that
I've done since.
S1 (21:10):
One quick, funny digression from that West Indies tour was,
I think it was the first day of the first test. And, um,
given that we were on the other side of the
world from Australia, uh, and, uh, you know, you felt
like you had a bit of time to, to write.
I think it got to about 9 p.m. that night.
And I asked you, how you going? Because we were
sharing some accommodation and, uh, and you're like, I'm going. Really? Well, I'm,
(21:33):
I'm absolutely, um, dominating. It's going great. I've almost finished
my notes.
S2 (21:39):
Well, that's about right. You know, that that sounds like
that's definitely how I was then. And to an extent
sometimes how I can be now with preparing to write.
You know, there's that. It's a Lincoln quote, isn't it, that, um,
that three quarters of cutting down the tree is sharpening
the knife? Something like that. I'm probably misquoting, but the
point stands is that, um, you know, I spend an
awful lot of time sharpening that knife because I wasn't
(22:00):
sure of my written voice and my tone, and I
was second guessing myself, and I felt the best way
to offset that was by being so prepared to have
every angle covered, um, that it would come out coherently
in the end. And I think most of the time
it did. I look back at stuff I wrote in
those first couple of years, when I was a hustling,
bustling freelancer in the papers and the magazines. And, you know,
(22:20):
that's pretty good work, I reckon. It took me a
while to find my stride, find my phrasing and that
type of thing. But once I got into it, I
absolutely loved it. But I spent way, way, way too
much time in, you know, in hotel rooms or whatever
at two in the morning, having not filed. That was
an affliction early on which I, um, thankfully no longer have.
I mean, I can be a little bit, um, I
can be a little bit, um, inclined to procrastinate if
(22:43):
I've got a written piece, which is why I crave deadlines.
And again, that's an ADHD thing. People with my hardwiring
need deadlines because if you allow us to, um, drift
on and on, we will drift on and on. That's
just the way that it works, unfortunately. So having done
books the last couple of years, the best thing for
me with those books has been knowing that I had
(23:03):
to have the manuscript filed by this date or the
book wouldn't exist. So I think that's that's a helpful
thing for me. And I, I know that now and
I can manage myself better accordingly.
S1 (23:11):
In amongst all of that learning and sort of getting
started in working in cricket media. Tell me a bit
about getting to know Geoff Lemon and then getting into
the partnership with him that you you've still got.
S2 (23:24):
Yeah. So Jeff and I met online first, which is
not unusual really these days, is it? But, um, he
and I had the same idea at a different time
in England in 2012 when I was living there during
the Olympic Games. I, uh, occasionally was listening to a
a broadcast called Test Match Sofa, which was what it said.
It did what it said on the tin. Really. It
(23:45):
was commentary of test cricket by a bunch of people
sitting on a sofa in London with my dear friend
Daniel Norcross, who works for.
S1 (23:51):
Pirate radio, essentially.
S2 (23:52):
Pirate radio. He works for BBC proper these days, The
real thing. And we're rooming this week in Perth, actually,
which is quite nice. Full circle moment with him and me.
But no, he was making that that programme, that pirate radio,
and I thought that Australia was crying out for it.
And I very, very loosely pitched it to the ABC
in 2013, having had a really fun day out with
a few ABC. Um, those who were working at the
(24:14):
ABC at the time, friends who love their cricket, um,
I think Steve Kinane, Francis Leach, Richard Hynes, and I
think I pitched at the time that, oh, this could
be a product in Australia as well. It could be
like a red button cricket commentary alternative. If you're listening
to the ABC, you can have the normal commentary or
you can have the sweary one. I thought I'd, you know,
do that and it'd be a be a laugh. Um,
(24:36):
Jeff had the same idea around the same time, he
started a thing called White Line Wireline wireless, which I
really admired. What he had done, which was exactly the
same as Test Match Chauffeur, when, as it turns out,
the ABC had stopped going to overseas series at the time.
And I thought that was wrong, so did Geoff. There
was a a spirited debate in the, in the, in
the national Senate on it. Actually, Senator then Senator John Faulkner, um,
(24:58):
was um, was on his feet in Parliament discussing how
it could possibly be that the ABC hadn't sent, um,
hadn't sent a commentary team to India in 2013. And
Geoff had got wind of that and started his own
pirate radio. So, yeah, that's where it began. Our joint
interest in that. We met, uh, at the Sydney Test
in 2014, at the end of that ashes series, my
(25:19):
first writing about the game, we identified pretty early on
that there wasn't much going on by way of cricket podcasting,
and it took a while. We ended up making a
cricket podcast for the ABC for a few years. Sadly,
I don't think they ever really knew we existed. Certainly
a couple of people in there were like, you know,
it was clear that we were way off Broadway, like
(25:39):
we were not a priority, which is fine. We were
new guys starting out, but, um, we kind of realized
over time that we would need to at some point, uh,
go it alone. And yeah, that that next phase started
in 2018, which was the same time that I bought
the radio rights for the the test series in Pakistan,
which is a whole other story, really. Um, and yeah,
by that point, we realized that if we were going
(26:00):
to do this podcast properly, we had to go all in.
And 6 or 7 years later, we have been very
much vindicated in that, in that decision, because now the
the podcast gets made about 250 times a year, all
different types of shows within the podcast feed. And yeah,
we're really proud of the contribution that we make to
the conversation within that and the different types of people
(26:21):
we have on with us, including yourself and the different
types of stories that we're able to tell as an
independent media outlet. And, uh, you know, it's recognized fairly
widely that we we do well with it. And, um, yeah,
it's a source of pride.
S1 (26:32):
We're talking to the cricket broadcaster and podcaster Adam Collins,
who is also an author And, uh, you and Jeff
have just released a book called Bedtime Tales for Cricket Tragics,
which is it's a bit of a compilation of a
segment on your show called Story Time.
S2 (26:49):
Yeah. That's right. We make a weekend spin off show,
which got really big in the pandemic when there was
nothing to talk about about the game. Um, so we
were telling the stories of the history of the game.
It all started when, um, one of our patrons subscribers
sent in a bespoke number about cricket as his crowdfunded contribution.
It was 2 to 2 or two for 22 as
(27:13):
a tribute to Richie Benaud. And, um, you know, one
thing led to another, as it does online. Um, that
one turning point meant that a whole bunch of our
patrons decided to change their contributions to cricketing numbers, which
became the catalyst for us to tell these stories we've
told about, gosh, I don't know, maybe 1500 stories now
on the program in long form style. And we picked
(27:34):
out 22 of them to feature in what I'm calling
the first edition of Bedtime Tales for Cricket Tragics because, um,
there was so much great stuff left on the cutting
room floor with this book in terms of which stories
we had to omit that I'm fairly bullish that if
this does well, and we had a lovely launch in
London last week, and we've got one in Melbourne next week,
that if this does what we want it to do,
(27:55):
it could be the type of thing that we try
and roll out each Christmas, which would be nice.
S1 (27:58):
Yeah, absolutely. And um, it's it's actually a nice little
segue to the other book that you've done or the,
the well, I should say third book because you also
did one with Wayne Swan, didn't you? Yeah.
S2 (28:12):
That was that 2014 year when I was just starting
to write. And it was helpful that, um, Wayne wanted
me to ghost it for him, and it was helpful
that I had that, um, discipline of writing a book then.
Or in the end, I didn't write the whole thing.
We broke it up into a couple of chunks, but
I wrote a really big slab of it and, um,
then then, yeah, last year I went through that ghosting
(28:32):
process with a cricketer for the first time.
S1 (28:34):
Yeah. And that cricket is Glenn Maxwell now? Uh, obviously
when you, when you work in, in broadcasting, um, or
sports media and you're traveling around a lot, you're spending
a lot of time in close proximity to the, um,
to the cricketers or the athletes, uh, you know, sometimes
you'll hit it off with someone, you will, you'll build
a you'll build a friendship, you'll build something that's a
(28:56):
little bit more than a, um, than a professional, uh, relationship.
So tell me a bit about you and Glenn and
the fact that, uh. Yeah, you're kind of, um, kindred
spirits in a way.
S2 (29:06):
Yeah, yeah, maybe we are. Um, you're right in your analysis,
by the way, in your question there about it's impossible
to remain completely dispassionate about all of your subjects. I
reckon I'm pretty good with it, like, I reckon when
I'm commentating on test cricket, as I will be through
the summer. I don't get too wrapped up in the
stories of the players when narrating the action, but it
(29:28):
would be disingenuous to say that you don't feel more
attached to some than others because you get to know them.
It's the human condition that you develop bonds and links
with people. And so it proved with Glenn. You know,
I think that it probably started when I was writing
these vitriolic articles about the injustice of how he'd been
treated by the test selectors, going back some time now.
(29:48):
And he'd had he'd already listened to our show a bit. Um,
he said he listened to it quite a lot, actually.
And then we interviewed him at the 2019 World Cup.
Now what I didn't know, and what I found fascinating
through the book is that when he and I did
that interview in in 19 with Geoff in Bristol before
that tournament, it wasn't long before he went into a
full on depressive spiral, like a far more intense than
(30:09):
people knew, like way, way worse than people realised at
the time. Um, thankfully he got on top of it. And,
you know, as you would hope most people would have
the means to do, of course, he had the the
support network of being an Australian cricketer, which you can't
dispute the privilege there. But, you know, it's interesting. You
go back and listen to that interview and you probably
wouldn't pick up on any signs that, um, that he
(30:31):
was about to go through a really, really tough period
in his life. And it'd be naive to say that
that was cricket related alone. Um, you know, people don't
go into the funk that he went into because you're
not making runs. It's again, that's a naive, um, way
of analysing the condition. So, yeah. Um, anyway, you press
(30:51):
fast forward and through the, the time of the pandemic and,
you know, as these things do, right, you just become
better friends with people over time. And he and I
had spoken about making a documentary about his life. I
had this recollection of a documentary that Shane Crawford subjected
himself to in 2003, where he shot a lot of
it himself on a handycam. It was a really brilliant
(31:13):
bit of work. The late Rob Dixon made with him. Um,
and I thought that could work really well for Maxie
because he's never been shy about sharing his own story. Right.
He's brilliant at, like, um, at giving himself. And you've
interviewed him lots as well. He gives loads at an interview.
Far more than the average bear, right? He's very happy
to trust people with his story, whatever the story is
(31:34):
at the time, you know, um, and I thought with
that personality trait, he'd be brilliant at self shooting and
that type of thing. And the pandemic got in the
way and it never really got off the ground. And
that's fine. And then he came to me a couple
of years on from that and said, what about a book?
And it just happened to be that, um, when we
started those conversations, he went off to the 2023 World
(31:55):
Cup and had the most extraordinary tournament. And at the
end of that, it wasn't like Glenn and I talking
about a book. It was more like publishers coming to
him saying, you should do a book. And we were
able to still stick to that year in the life
of to a point, because there was a really neat
narrative arc where 360 days before, not quite 365, but
360 days before the 201 not out at Mumbai, the
(32:19):
greatest one day innings ever played. Um, he, um, snapped
his ankle in two so badly that there was risk
of amputation of his foot again, which wasn't known publicly
at the time. So there was this way of charting
his recovery from a career threatening injury beyond career threatening foot,
threatening injury through and to the point where he was
(32:39):
performing at the very peak of his powers exactly a
year after that, and we were able to use that
as the x axis. And the y axis was everything
else in his life, and the creative challenge and the
project that we worked so hard on. How do we
sprinkle the stories of his whole life through the x axis?
How do we find anchors to what's happened in the
(33:01):
12 months that we're identifying as this most important period,
but not to us not to brush over stuff that
happened when he was a kid or when, you know,
he'd had these ups and downs through his professional career.
So we we tried to merge the two things together,
and we were really proud of how it came up. Um,
you know, Gideon Haig, who I think everyone that works
in cricket has such a high regard for, in his
(33:23):
review of the book, describes the passage about him talking
about that. 201 not out as like Phar Lap, describing
how he how Phar Lap won the 1930 Melbourne Cup,
which is a great line, right? Like you never. You
rarely get to hear an athlete, um, voice. Just how
they've done something in such great detail. And maxi being maxi,
he remembers everything. He was able to give me so
(33:46):
much detail that it was an absolute joy to pull
it together.
S1 (33:48):
And I would hope that that, uh, that friendship and
that relationship, um, endures, uh, off into the future when
he's no longer playing cricket.
S2 (33:56):
Yeah. I've got no doubt that it will. And I'm
very proud of him as a human. Like I'm proud
of him as a friend. Um. Full stop. I love
that he's, like, loves the game so much. What's misunderstood
about some cricketers? They play the game at a really
high level, but they don't like it very much. He's
the opposite. He's you know, it's no exaggeration to say
that he's like, watched clips of my off breaks and
provides me feedback, you know, and and cares. It's not
(34:19):
for effect. He's a he's a, he's a cricket obsessive
and um, in the best traditions of cricket badgers and indeed,
you know, we we called this book Bedtime Tales for
Cricket Tragics. He's probably the kind of guy who would
tear through it in a sitting because he's he likes
the game so much. Which is lovely.
S1 (34:34):
We can't finish without talking a bit about the ashes series,
which has, uh, has just gotten underway in Perth. The
cricket's already started, but how do you see the five
test matches? How do you how do you think it's
going to go?
S2 (34:45):
Well, I was really lucky. 20 years ago to be
at the first test match at Lord's in the 2005 series,
which is widely seen as the best, uh, well, arguably
the best ever, certainly one of the greatest ever. And
this is the next most anticipated. So, you know, sitting
here in the build up to that and the build
up has been extraordinary. Um, the, the, the, the volume
(35:06):
of words that have been devoted to speculating about what
might happen, unlike any other series I've been involved in
in my decade plus now in journalism. Uh, what I
would say is that test cricket could do with a
series like 2005. Again, the challenges for test cricket that
sit not far beneath the surface about the future of
the game, about the challenge presented by not just domestic
(35:29):
T20 cricket as we know it at the moment, but
the proliferation of leagues, the price signals for players, the
probable influx of Saudi Arabian money, which no one's really
talking about. These will present challenges to test cricket as
a format. It won't eliminate it. Nothing will kill test cricket,
but it'll compromise what we love. A big growing global
(35:51):
game with test cricket at its middle. Um, this could
change quite quickly. Could change in the next 5 to
10 years. And what could help, uh, slow that change?
Or maybe deaden the hardest edges or something like that,
or the sharpest edges would be another belting series akin
to what we had when India visited last year. So yeah,
we should be so lucky to have a series like 2005,
(36:13):
but mostly as a test cricket, uh, devotee. And I
want this to be a part of my life forever. Uh,
a series that's competitive all the way to Sydney, uh,
would be a blessing. So, you know, let's hope for that. And,
you know, my parochial interest to put well to one side,
because my greatest interest of all when it comes to
the game is seeing test cricket especially continue to not
(36:34):
just survive, but prosper for generations to come so that
my little girls can grow up to love it as
much as I do.
S1 (36:40):
I've already said to a couple of colleagues, I'm kind
of hoping or predicting that we'll have another two two scoreline.
What's your prediction?
S2 (36:48):
Yeah. Well, my I've been trying to studiously avoid predictions.
I've been predicting that not a single test will reach
a fifth day. Um, owing to the pictures that are
likely to be served up. The two two thing. You know,
there's been two twos in the last. Would I be
right in saying the last three ashes series in England? Um,
which have been great. All three of them have been,
you know, most nourishing or no. 15 England won three two,
(37:09):
didn't they? But in 2019 and 2023 series that we've
covered together, they've not been a series that's been live
in Australia between these nations going into the fifth test
since 1982 83. That's the last time a series was live.
The ashes was live going into the final rubber, if
you like. Um, that's that's a that'd be a tremendous
(37:30):
thing if we all rock up at Sydney for the
New Year's test match, and we all go to Kirribilli
House on New Year's Day, as we mentioned before, and
these two teams have gone straight for strike to that point. Um,
it would be a massive story. It would be a
story that would be the type that would sit in
one of these books in 150 years time. That's the
nature of ashes series, as they they tend to anchor
so much else of the cricketing conversation. So that's what
(37:53):
I'm desperate for. I mean, however, it starts here in Perth,
so long as both teams get a really good look
and both get a chance to get into the series,
I think it'll be compelling viewing. It'll mean record attendances,
record viewership and hopefully inspiring generations to come. That test
cricket is for them.
S1 (38:12):
Adam, it's been a real pleasure to, uh, reflect on
the past ten years or so. Um, thanks for joining us. And, yeah, let's, uh,
hope that it's a terrific ashes series for everyone to watch.
S2 (38:23):
Indeed. Thanks, Dan, a pleasure.
S1 (38:27):
That was cricket.
S3 (38:28):
Journalist and author and former political fixer Adam Collins, with
chief cricket correspondent Dan Bretag. For the latest Good Weekend talks.
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate
and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning
in for more compelling conversations. Coming soon! We chat to
former AFL player Mitch Brown, who came out as bisexual
(38:51):
in August, becoming the first publicly queer player in the
league's 129 year history. Good Weekend Talks is brought to
you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age proud
newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe
Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
(39:12):
Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by
Tim Mummery. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick
is head of audio and Melissa Stevens is the editor
of Good Weekend.
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