January 3, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode we speak with Australian singer-songwriter Missy Higgins, who broke through two decades ago with her hit debut album The Sound of White, which dealt with teen and 20-something troubles. Now 41, Higgins has just produced a new album, The Second Act, which traverses the aftermath of the breakdown of her marriage.
Higgins talks candidly with Good Weekend senior writer Melissa Fyfe about taking the audience with her on her life journey, the travails of songwriting and dating whilst being a single mum - and the joys of touring with a mostly female support crew.
We'll be back in January 2025 with plenty of exciting interviews booked in the calendar, but for now please enjoy one of our most popular episodes from the past year.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall, host of Good Weekend Talks. After
a short summer break, the podcast will be back in
January with plenty of exciting interviews booked in the calendar already.
But for now, enjoy one of our most popular episodes
from 2024 and don't forget to subscribe, rate and share! Hi,
(00:24):
I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and
The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for
your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport
and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:46):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with
Missy Higgins. The Australian singer songwriter has just produced a
new album, Second Act, which is as raw as her
breakthrough from 20 years ago. It's an emotional work charting
her life after a marriage breakdown. She talks about the
(01:06):
travails of being a single mum, along with the shows
she's playing around the country right now. Higgins is the
subject of our cover story this week, and hosting this
conversation about the generation of women touched by the artist
who've come out to support her now is the writer
behind that profile. Good weekend, senior writer Melissa Fyfe.
S2 (01:29):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Missy. Thanks for coming in.
S3 (01:33):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
S2 (01:34):
I wanted to start at a place where you spoke
about in the third interview. I think that we had
we have we do two interviews for good weekend profiles
and then a fact checking interview. And in the last
interview that we had together, you spoke about this new
album that's coming out next week, the second act, and
(01:55):
you talked about making it in a dark house at night.
Quiet house after the kids had gone to bed. And
you said that it was an image that stayed with me.
Like you had a whiskey on the piano, and. And
you said that. That this house, this dark, quiet house
(02:15):
held the weight of the songs that you were trying
to convey. Can you talk a bit about that?
S3 (02:21):
Yeah. I guess when I set out to record the album,
I wanted it to be, um, I wanted it to
reflect the mood and the place, the feeling of place
of where I wrote the song. So I wrote the song. Yeah,
just in a little room at the back of my house. Um,
and it was very always very quiet because it was
(02:44):
always late at night. And, um, when I was recording
the demos, I just record demos into my phone. I
had to do I had to sing the songs in
a kind of a whisper, because I didn't want to
wake the kids up. And yes, I often had a
glass of whiskey and dove at the piano because it
helped me get into the mood. And yeah, that was
the same as when I was writing the songs. You know, like, I, uh,
(03:08):
I think I was going through such a tough time
that that, that, you know, those few hours at the
end of the night, once the kids had gone to sleep,
that was my my time to be by myself and
reflect and just kind of let go a little bit. So, um, yeah,
when it came time to recording it, I just wanted
to do the same thing because there was something really
(03:29):
so intimate about the demos and the way that they
ended up sounding. And the songs are so, uh, they're
just there's such a vulnerable quality to them, I guess
I didn't want to lose that by kind of mixing
up the production too much.
S2 (03:43):
Yeah, this is a missy that's kind of a missy
Higgins that's going almost harking back to the Missy Higgins
that did the sound of white like a very different
person in a very different time of your life. But
there's this emotional kind of the album is so raw. Um,
did do you feel that? Is that what you sort
of felt like?
S3 (04:04):
Yeah, there's a real I mean, when I finished recording
this album, I realized that there was a real parallel
between my first album and this one, in that I
don't think any of my albums in between have been
as raw and as honest and vulnerable and kind of
unselfconscious to, I think when I was writing for The
Sound of White, you know, most of them were written
(04:27):
as a teenager in my bedroom, not ever imagining that
someone would ever hear them. So I never had that
in the back of my head. And with these songs,
I didn't either, because they all came from such a
place of just like desperation to to figure out what
these kind of hard emotions were that were all coming
(04:48):
up in me, like trying to move on from heartbreak
and trying to figure out what the rest of my
life was going to look like as a single mom
and trying to to rewrite the story for myself that
had been, you know, my old one had been burnt
to the ground. So I needed to, you know, figure
out what came next. And, um, I wasn't thinking about
an audience. I wasn't thinking about anyone listening to these
(05:10):
songs or judging them, or if they'd make it on
the radio. I just needed to untangle everything that was
inside me.
S2 (05:17):
Yeah, I mean, the album is not, I think, your manager,
when I interviewed him, he said, this is not an
album of like, revenge songs or like, it's not, you know,
Alanis Morissette, Jagged Little Pill or a. Olivia Rodrigo, Rodrigo's, um,
what's what's her I can't remember the name of sour.
Sour is the name of her album.
S3 (05:36):
Yeah, it's.
S2 (05:37):
Not at all.
S3 (05:38):
It's actually not about my marriage at all. Or that
relationship or my ex-husband. Like, it's it's very much about
me moving on and trying to figure out what my
new identity is going to be, and finding myself in
a place that I had never planned for. Which, you know,
(05:58):
I guess no one really ever plans to get divorced
and be a single mom. Um, and I yeah, I
just found myself really, really lost. So this album was
a way of trying to kind of dig myself out
of that place. Bit by bit, song by song.
S2 (06:16):
Yeah. I mean, we talked a lot about this in
the interviews, but your songs, The Story for the ages
is really about like what we think about taking on
marriage as this, this story that we're part of, and
it's going to be forever. And then what happens when
it falls apart and trying to grapple grapple with that. Mhm. Um,
(06:38):
and I think yeah, I think we talked we talked
a lot about how you particularly looked at your parents
for an example of a marriage that was very strong
and stable, that provided you with that stability, and then
how you feel now and grappling with that as well.
S3 (06:55):
Yeah, I think growing up in a family that was very,
just very strong and together and I don't know, we
we always kind of prided ourselves on being a really
close family. Yeah. Um, having these family dinners and I
don't know, I guess I just always held my mom
and dad's marriage in really high regard, you know, as
(07:17):
life goals. Um, and I wanted that for my kids
as well. I wanted a really together family, you know,
that lasted the test of time. And, um, I was. Yeah,
I was just. So I guess I was just so
disappointed in myself for somehow not making that happen and
(07:37):
not making it work. And so I guess there was
a lot of shame that I was grappling with and
when I was writing these songs, I was just, yeah,
trying to confront that head on and go, what? Where's
this shame coming from? Where's this guilt coming from? And
is it justified, or should I give myself a bit
(07:59):
of a break? There's a song called The Second Act,
which is the title track of the album, where I
am trying to tell myself to to go easy on myself.
You know that we're all we're all humans. We're all
kind of fumbling our way through and nobody knows what
they're doing. Everyone's just acting. Well.
S4 (08:18):
I think I'm ready.
UU (08:21):
For the turning of the wheel.
S4 (08:25):
Find fresh waters for these old wounds to heal.
UU (08:34):
All that it took to try to succeed.
S2 (08:40):
I loved your reflection about. We put this value on forever. Um,
but it's a big thing to carry on your shoulders.
It is. And then also, I loved your reflection. I
think it was again, in probably the last interview we
had where you talked about maybe, you know, maybe it's
better to have a couple of, you know, soul nourishing
(09:01):
relationships rather than one long, mediocre one.
S3 (09:04):
Yeah, I think a lot of people said settle for
a long, mediocre one, to be honest. Yeah, I think
I just it's funny coming out the other side of it.
I'm you start noticing these kind of very strong kind
of cultural obsessions that we have, and one of them
is longevity at all costs. I think, like staying in
(09:25):
a marriage at all costs, you know, or staying with
the one job, you know, everyone applauds that. You know,
these people, these old people who've been doing the same
thing for 50 years or 60 years, but no one
seems to prioritize whether that person was actually happy doing
that or feeling fulfilled. You know, it's all about. Did
you stick it out? You know, it's this kind of
(09:45):
hard work ethic that we've got. So I just wish
there'd been a bit more, um, yeah, a bit more
focus on on a really good quality relationship, regardless of
how long that lasts. And I like the idea of
looking at my marriage as this beautiful thing that lasted
nine years. You know, not this failure that only lasted
(10:06):
nine years. Absolutely.
S2 (10:07):
Yeah. Nine years is a long time. It is.
S3 (10:09):
It is. Yeah. Um, and we did it really well,
I think, like, we we had a great friendship and
a lot of love for each other, and we've managed
to navigate the end of it really well too. So
I'm quite I'm quite proud of us in that respect. Yeah.
S2 (10:22):
I think that's that's lovely that the co-parenting relationship has
morphed into a loving relationship as well. It's that's important.
S3 (10:30):
Yeah, I think so. And I think that I can
be proud of myself for that because, um, you know,
that that takes a lot of effort and it takes
a lot of kind of compassion when you don't necessarily
want to feel compassion, you know, like there can be
resentment or anger bubbling up and you're like, no, we've
got to stay civil. We've got to remain friends. We've
(10:52):
got to do this together, even if it's tricky. And so, yeah, we've,
we've we've maintained a really good kind of level of
respect for each other, I think throughout it all. And
I think both of us know that it's important that
we remain a pretty like, as close as possible for
the kids sake. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (11:12):
Uh, as part of the piece, I went to see
your show at the Palais. So this is such a
special show because you're doing your new stuff in the beginning,
and then the entire Sound of White, your breakthrough album,
which was an absolute mega selling album. Um, so in
the second act of the show, you do the whole thing.
(11:33):
Not not in order of the songs, is it? It's
sort of a bit jumbled up.
S3 (11:37):
No. Yeah. It's not quite in order of the album.
It didn't really work for a live show because, you know,
scars right up the front of the album. So I
didn't want to play that first.
S2 (11:46):
Yeah. And so what I loved and as part of
the article, I spoke to Rachel Perkins, your friend and filmmaker,
and she had the same thing that I had, which
was this just just loving watching people around us as
they I mean, as they cried and laughed and I
cried and laughed, I was just so. I was so,
(12:09):
so shocked at times at how kind of like raw
and revealing you were on stage. What has it been
like on this tour? You've done 40 shows to about
80,000 people now. Like, what's it been like?
S3 (12:22):
Yeah, it's been like one massive therapy session, to be honest,
like five months of therapy. Um, if therapy was, you know,
standing in front of a few thousand people and being
applauded for expressing, Expressing your emotions. Um, yeah. It's been
so amazing. I think it's been the most incredible tour
(12:43):
I've ever done, because it's not only playing my new
music and telling these stories and anecdotes that are so
raw and honest and kind of unflattering, like, I'm just
talking about being a mess the whole time, really, in
the first act and then, um, you know, singing songs
(13:04):
about hating myself and things like that, you know, like,
it's not very. I said to someone, I was like,
it's not very sexy. This new album, like, it's not
like anyone's going to want to date me after this.
And then and then there's an interval, and then the
second half is me playing the sound of white.
UU (13:20):
And we will only need each other. We'll bleed together.
Our hands will not be taught to hold another's. Cause
we're the special two. And we could only see each other.
We'll breathe together. These arms will not be taught to
(13:42):
need another's cause. Where? The special two.
S3 (13:49):
And I've just been so blown away by the reaction
to this anniversary tour. Like so many people have kind
of come out of the woodwork and told me how
important my first album was to them, and even young
singer songwriters, kind of coming up now, are telling me
that I was an influence, or that my first album
(14:10):
was an influence on them, and I really had no idea.
I mean, I knew it was popular back in the day,
but I didn't realize that people still listen to that
album or they still thought it was, you know, an
important piece of work. And yeah, it's, um, it's changed
my whole perspective on that album.
S2 (14:28):
In what way? Like, you appreciate it more?
S3 (14:31):
Yeah, I think I appreciate it more. I mean, I
always appreciated it for kicking off my career and being
the reason why, you know, um, I was able to
tour so much and keep on touring because of the
success of of that album and build upon that. But
I appreciate it even more now because I realized that
(14:53):
it's yeah, it's it's stood the test of time for
a lot of people. And I don't know why that
album in particular, but it has. So it must have
some sort of special quality to it. And, um, you know,
there's a I almost don't feel responsible for it because
I feel like a completely different person to who I
was 20 years ago. But I'm. Yeah, I'm really grateful
(15:15):
for it.
S2 (15:15):
Yeah. I think it's fascinating because I had no idea
that there was this group of totally rusted on Missy
Higgins fans that really follow you around, and they've really
sustained your career, I think, because that you don't get
played a lot on commercial radio. Mhm. Um but these
I think it's something to do perhaps with the, the
(15:36):
honesty and vulnerability of the songs, but also that these
and they, they mostly are women but men too. Mhm.
Um who have had it kind of like I say
in the story like kind of, you know, it's part
of their neuro wiring of their because they're in adolescence
and it's all around there anyway. And it's, it's that,
you know, those albums when you are just, they're just
(15:57):
really important to you when you're a teenager or a
late teenager. Yeah. And it becomes part of your brain almost.
I think maybe, maybe it's about that. But it was
definitely a it was very emotional. Like I felt the
the shows were emotional, um, partly because of the old stuff,
but also your new stuff like that song about, you know,
a complicated truth about having to tell your daughter about
(16:21):
why you can't live with daddy anymore. Was is just
people cry in the audience and I think they're crying
for all sorts of different reasons. What's what's your take
on that?
S3 (16:32):
Yeah, there's, um, there's there's audible sobbing in the audience
when I play that song. It's quite it's quite intense.
Can you paint.
S2 (16:40):
The picture of how you write that song and.
S3 (16:43):
Yeah, I wrote that song, um, after my daughter had
obviously some sort of. She'd had some sort of realization, um,
whether it was after reading her, you know, her fairy
tales or her storybooks or maybe noticing the TV shows
or the families at school not looking like ours. And, um,
(17:05):
she started asking why daddy couldn't live in the same
house with us, and she started asking about marriage. And,
you know, I explained to her what marriage was and
what it meant. And then and then she was like, well,
if you gave each other rings and made promises, then
how how can you just decide to not be married
and break that promise. And I was, you know, we
(17:29):
were driving along in the car while she was asking
me these questions from the back seat, and my heart
was just breaking. And I really I didn't know really
how to answer her in a way that a five
year old might understand. Um, and it happened to it
happened a few times in a row. Um, so, yeah,
(17:52):
one of those days when she was when the kids
were at their dad's house, I had the house to
myself and it was feeling particularly empty. And it was
a cold, windy day outside. And I just sat down
at my piano and I thought, I'm going to try
and put into words what I couldn't say to her
in the car.
S4 (18:11):
The trees are swaying.
UU (18:13):
Out the window and you're not with me.
S4 (18:18):
Today. You're with him. And that's okay. That's It's okay.
UU (18:26):
I hope you're running round in circles.
S4 (18:30):
I hope you're laughing till you drop. Hope you're feeling
safe I hope you're feeling loved. The days are longer
when you're not here. I've been staring at the sky.
Wondering what I used to do with all my time.
(18:56):
You're a universe of starlight.
S3 (19:01):
And it took a long time to write that song.
Because I really wanted to say it the right way.
And I knew that it would be a special thing
for her to listen back to one day. You know,
when she was old enough to understand, but I was
I was hoping that it might well, for both my kids. Really.
I was hoping that it might, um, allow them to
understand things from our perspective a little bit better.
S2 (19:23):
But it's also works both ways. I think it's like
it it sort of hits for parents who are struggling
to to tell their kids a similar thing at the moment,
but also for those adults who were those children in
the back seat? Do you think?
S3 (19:39):
Yeah, there's a lot of, um, adults that come up
to me or message me about that song and say,
you know, I was I was sitting with my mum
during that song, and we were both holding each other
and crying, and my mum was saying, this is exactly
what I felt. You know, when me and your father
split up or, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot of
(20:01):
kind of parent child relationships or coming to my shows and, and,
and then come kind of sitting in the audience and
seeing themselves in that song. Um, so, yeah, whether it's
the child or the parent or, you know, someone who
went through that a long time ago when they were young,
I find that a lot of people can can relate
(20:21):
to it.
S2 (20:37):
How do you feel being so vulnerable on stage? How
does that how does that feel for you?
S3 (20:43):
Um, I think I've had a lot of practice over
the years. I think my songs have always been pretty vulnerable. Um, pretty,
you know, straight from the heart. But I think over
the last 20 years, I've kind of, I've started giving
myself more and more on stage. And I think as
(21:04):
I've gotten older, I've become more comfortable to really be
myself completely up there. And little by little, I've found
that the more real I can be, the more it's appreciated.
You know I've never been a kind of a character performer?
I've never been somebody who has a stage persona. It's
(21:26):
always been just me, you know? Like my friends come
to the shows and they're like, yeah, you're just yourself
up there. Yeah. Um, and I feel like with this
album in particular, it's so full on and honest, I
kind of have to I have to preface it with
a bit of a, you know, a.
S2 (21:43):
Content warning or. No. Yeah, well.
S3 (21:45):
I don't know. I feel like it's almost weird if
I was to be really kind of demure and quiet
in between the songs and then just come out with
this full on, like baring my absolute guts to this,
to the audience, if I don't kind of, um, chat
to them like human beings or friends as well. Like
(22:06):
it's got to be all part of the same show,
I think so. So it feels like we're just otherwise
it might feel a little bit uncomfortable, like, wow, she
just revealed so much. And then she's really quiet and
reserved in between songs like What's Going On? Does she?
Does she regret writing on such an honest song? Is
she shy about it? So I need to let them
know that it's okay. I'm fine with the fact that I've.
(22:27):
I've admitted all this stuff in my songs because I'll
chat to you about it like it's all part of
the same thing. It's all me, you know?
S2 (22:34):
Yeah, yeah. And the other song that I really love
is You Should Run, which is about dating, I guess
dating as a single mother, really. And like, all of the.
And also this time of life, you know, like, it's
just not the same as it was and that you,
you come, as you say in the song, like there's
(22:56):
a package, there's like, yeah, two little humans and the
house is messy and yeah, you know, and also you
can't make him or her whatever. Number one, it's really
it's really tricky.
S3 (23:08):
Yeah. There's quite a, there's maybe 4 or 5 songs
on the album about trying to date again after this
big break up and being a single mum because yeah,
it is so complicated and it's so messy and you
feel like you're just bringing so much into the life,
like so much baggage, and they're never going to be
your priority. And I think that's really hard for some people,
(23:32):
especially if they don't have kids. It's really hard for
them to accept that you're really not going to have
that much time to see them, especially during the week.
And it's all going to depend on, you know, whether
you've got them, whether you've got the kids or not,
and what your schedule is like, and it's just your
capacity for giving yourself to somebody else isn't like it
was in your 20s when you were single.
S2 (23:53):
You can't give you can't give 100%.
S3 (23:56):
No, no. And it's a shame because, you know, it's
that's I remember that being such a beautiful feeling, like
you just fall completely into something, you know, before kids,
you could just, you know, immerse yourself in each other
and just lie around in bed all day and just, like,
stare into each other's eyes and get lost. But there's
(24:19):
just not. That's just not life anymore. So, um, yeah,
it takes a bit of adjusting.
S2 (24:24):
Yeah. I wanted to talk briefly with you about the
way that you manage your tour and your band, because
that sort of came up when I was talking to
people about, um, how you do that. You've got a
lot of you make a real effort to include women
who have young kids. It's almost like you had a
band full of pregnant people for a while. Yeah.
S3 (24:46):
And now we've got a creche backstage, basically. So.
S2 (24:49):
So how does that work? What do you do to
make that work?
S3 (24:51):
Yeah, I just, um. Well, I know that a lot
of women, when they get pregnant in my industry, people
stop calling and they stop hiring them for tours. They
stop even asking if they want to do it. Um,
but I, I made a concerted effort to Not only
(25:12):
like ask if they wanted to do it when they
were pregnant, also when they had newborns. But encourage them
and say, you know, we'll I'll pay for a nanny.
You know, we'll we'll get you a separate car with
a car seat and just kind of make it as, um,
doable for them as possible. Um, because I know that
it can get really, really hard and you can feel
(25:33):
a bit invisible once you start, once you're pregnant, and
then you have a kid because people think you're just
not able to do the things that you did before.
And yeah, it can be harder. I mean, you've got
a baby in tow, and that's not always easy, but
it can be a beautiful experience taking your kid on
the road and having them with you. And, you know,
when they're really young, you can do that because they
don't have to go to school. So it can be
(25:54):
a special time. And because there's so many women in
my band, we all just we all just love it.
And we all love having kids backstage. And, you know,
sometimes everybody has their kid at a show. So soundcheck
is literally like, there's more kids on stage than there
is grown ups. but, um. Yeah, it's really it's really sweet.
I love it, it brings a really good vibe to
the to the to backstage.
S2 (26:15):
And also probably does extend the careers of some of
your band members. Were saying, well, one of them was
saying that she didn't even know whether as a touring
session musician, that she would have a career.
S3 (26:27):
Yeah.
S2 (26:28):
After kids.
S3 (26:28):
Yeah. Because historically it's been, you know, a time when
women do disappear and people stop calling. And, um, once
that happens for a few years, you just get out
of the loop. And so people, people just don't think
you're available anymore. And, um, it's something it's one of
those things where you just kind of, you kind of
(26:49):
have to stay in it in order to have that longevity.
So women don't they? You know, a lot of the
time they don't want to take that time off because
they want to still be able to do it in,
you know, in ten years time or 15 years time.
But in order to do that, they've got to make
sure that people know that there are still a touring musician.
S2 (27:08):
So, Missy, you've now finished these 40 shows. What's next
for you?
S3 (27:14):
What's next is well, because all the shows sold out,
which is kind of mind blowing in itself, um, we
have decided to put on a bunch of big shows
at the end of the year, so like half a
dozen encore shows so that anyone that missed out on
tickets could hopefully come to one of those. And we're
(27:35):
playing at the Sidney Myer Music Bowl and the Sydney
Opera House forecourt. So some really beautiful venues. So hopefully
anyone that didn't manage to get to one of these
40 shows can come to one of those at the
end of the year.
S2 (27:48):
And the other thing I wanted to talk to you
about was you were talking about your reflections. You turned
40 last year, that you've started to sort of think
a bit about women aging and how that affects women
who are, um, who are middle aged. Mhm.
S3 (28:04):
Yeah, I mean, maybe it happens to everyone once they
turn 40, but you start, you start kind of reflecting on, um,
the fact that you're starting to not look like you
did and you're starting to not look like all the other, um, the,
the younger generation of female singers doing what you are doing. And, uh, yeah,
(28:30):
I'm grappling with it a little bit because it's, there
is this kind of cultural obsession with women staying the
same age and, um, and not being desirable anymore. Once
they start to get wrinkles and they start to sag
a bit. Whereas men seem to stay desirable, once they
get wrinkles and start to sag, it doesn't seem to matter, um,
(28:53):
in society's eyes, that that men age, they still remain
kind of sexy and and, um, It's quite confronting as
a woman to be like, okay, I'm moving into that
age where, um, people start, uh, treating you differently, and
(29:16):
it's not so much it. Yeah. You're moving into a
kind of a different category. I mean, I've never I've
never used my. I feel lucky that I've never used
my body or sex appeal. I don't think to to
sell music, which I'm glad about because there's a time
limit on that, whereas it's not a time limit on
(29:37):
your brain or your or your capacity to, like, make
good music. So I feel I'm glad that I didn't
do that, because now I don't have to worry so
much about, like, maintaining my sexiness or my like, bikini
body to in my video shoots. Yeah. Um, but I
think any woman moving into their 40s is. Yeah, is
(30:00):
confronted with that And it's it's a conscious decision to go,
I'm going to I'm going to talk to myself with compassion.
I'm going to talk to myself, to my reflection in
the mirror in a way that I would want my
child to talk to themselves. And I'm going to, especially
when you have a daughter, like I'm looking at my
daughter and going, I've really got to learn to love
(30:22):
myself no matter what I look like, so that I'm
modeling that for her. Because if I'm always kind of
criticizing myself or I'm I'm moaning about getting older, then
she's going to be terrified about getting older as well.
So she's going to, you know, she's going to adapt
or she's going to adopt those, um, kind of negative
feelings towards herself. So, yeah, I think having a daughter
(30:44):
and also just moving into this stage of my life
is kind of there's a lot of conscious, kind talking
that I have to do to myself.
S2 (30:55):
Yes.
S3 (30:56):
Which which isn't always easy. But like every day I'm
trying to remind myself that it's important. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (31:02):
And lastly, Missy, I was wondering where you are at now.
Like you said, this has been like a five month
therapy session, and you've sort of, um, come out the
other side. You've had all these people come to your shows.
You've been. It must be so bizarre doing that, that
kind of teenage missy. Missy Higgins and the the sort
(31:26):
of 41 year old Missy Higgins material. But where where
are you at now? Do you feel like you have
any answers to the questions that you're posing around midlife
and these sorts of crises that we face often in this,
this weird, as you say, the weird middle act? I
think you said it was one of your quotes.
S3 (31:46):
Yeah. The in-between.
S2 (31:47):
The in-between between.
S3 (31:50):
No, I don't have any answers. I guess my the
only thing I've figured out is that there isn't really
any answers. I think there's kind of a wisdom, a
wisdom to, you know, coming to that realization that it's
all just everyone's just fumbling their way through. And I've learned,
I think over the course of the last five months,
(32:10):
that time will just do whatever it wants to do
with you. And there's no forcing yourself to be at
a stage you're not, and there's no forcing yourself to
be ready for something if you're not like, I can't
force myself to be completely over the heartbreak and and
really confident and empowered for the next stage. If I'm
(32:31):
not feeling that yet, but it'll probably come. Yeah, and
I'm getting closer to that. And the last five months
has definitely helped get me closer to that. I don't
think I'm grieving anymore. Um, I actually feel like I'm like,
I'm in a really good place right now because I'm not.
I'm really enjoying just being by myself. I don't feel
(32:51):
like I need a relationship at all. In fact, I
think it's probably much better to not because I don't
have any time or space, and that's kind of stressful.
The thought of trying to make time for someone else. Um,
and I'm putting any extra energy I have into just
trying to be the best mum that I can. Um,
(33:13):
especially after five months of touring. Yes. Not being there
as much as I would have liked. Um, but yeah,
I think that the last five months has helped me
move through the difficult grieving stage and be more prepared for,
I guess, the unknown future, and accepting that I'm never
(33:34):
going to know what's going to happen tomorrow, but kind
of being okay with that. You know, I don't have
to write my I don't have to write a story
for myself, because if I did, you know, I'd just
be disappointed that it didn't come true. So just take
whatever happens and always be open to new experiences. That's
my current motto.
S2 (33:54):
Thanks, Missy for coming in. No worries. It's been lovely
talking to you over various times now, so thanks.
S3 (34:01):
We've had quite a lot of big chats now we've
gone deep.
S2 (34:05):
We have. So thanks for coming in, Missy.
S3 (34:07):
No worries. Thank you.
S1 (34:13):
Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney
Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to
support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?
And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe,
rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode
(34:34):
of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing
from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and
Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall, host of Good Weekend Talks. After
a short summer break, the podcast will be back in
January with plenty of exciting interviews booked in the calendar already.
But for now, enjoy one of our most popular episodes
from 2024 and don't forget to subscribe, rate and share! Hi,
(00:24):
I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and
The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for
your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport
and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:46):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with
Missy Higgins. The Australian singer songwriter has just produced a
new album, Second Act, which is as raw as her
breakthrough from 20 years ago. It's an emotional work charting
her life after a marriage breakdown. She talks about the
(01:06):
travails of being a single mum, along with the shows
she's playing around the country right now. Higgins is the
subject of our cover story this week, and hosting this
conversation about the generation of women touched by the artist
who've come out to support her now is the writer
behind that profile. Good weekend, senior writer Melissa Fyfe.
S2 (01:29):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Missy. Thanks for coming in.
S3 (01:33):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
S2 (01:34):
I wanted to start at a place where you spoke
about in the third interview. I think that we had
we have we do two interviews for good weekend profiles
and then a fact checking interview. And in the last
interview that we had together, you spoke about this new
album that's coming out next week, the second act, and
(01:55):
you talked about making it in a dark house at night.
Quiet house after the kids had gone to bed. And
you said that it was an image that stayed with me.
Like you had a whiskey on the piano, and. And
you said that. That this house, this dark, quiet house
(02:15):
held the weight of the songs that you were trying
to convey. Can you talk a bit about that?
S3 (02:21):
Yeah. I guess when I set out to record the album,
I wanted it to be, um, I wanted it to
reflect the mood and the place, the feeling of place
of where I wrote the song. So I wrote the song. Yeah,
just in a little room at the back of my house. Um,
and it was very always very quiet because it was
(02:44):
always late at night. And, um, when I was recording
the demos, I just record demos into my phone. I
had to do I had to sing the songs in
a kind of a whisper, because I didn't want to
wake the kids up. And yes, I often had a
glass of whiskey and dove at the piano because it
helped me get into the mood. And yeah, that was
the same as when I was writing the songs. You know, like, I, uh,
(03:08):
I think I was going through such a tough time
that that, that, you know, those few hours at the
end of the night, once the kids had gone to sleep,
that was my my time to be by myself and
reflect and just kind of let go a little bit. So, um, yeah,
when it came time to recording it, I just wanted
to do the same thing because there was something really
(03:29):
so intimate about the demos and the way that they
ended up sounding. And the songs are so, uh, they're
just there's such a vulnerable quality to them, I guess
I didn't want to lose that by kind of mixing
up the production too much.
S2 (03:43):
Yeah, this is a missy that's kind of a missy
Higgins that's going almost harking back to the Missy Higgins
that did the sound of white like a very different
person in a very different time of your life. But
there's this emotional kind of the album is so raw. Um,
did do you feel that? Is that what you sort
of felt like?
S3 (04:04):
Yeah, there's a real I mean, when I finished recording
this album, I realized that there was a real parallel
between my first album and this one, in that I
don't think any of my albums in between have been
as raw and as honest and vulnerable and kind of
unselfconscious to, I think when I was writing for The
Sound of White, you know, most of them were written
(04:27):
as a teenager in my bedroom, not ever imagining that
someone would ever hear them. So I never had that
in the back of my head. And with these songs,
I didn't either, because they all came from such a
place of just like desperation to to figure out what
these kind of hard emotions were that were all coming
(04:48):
up in me, like trying to move on from heartbreak
and trying to figure out what the rest of my
life was going to look like as a single mom
and trying to to rewrite the story for myself that
had been, you know, my old one had been burnt
to the ground. So I needed to, you know, figure
out what came next. And, um, I wasn't thinking about
an audience. I wasn't thinking about anyone listening to these
(05:10):
songs or judging them, or if they'd make it on
the radio. I just needed to untangle everything that was
inside me.
S2 (05:17):
Yeah, I mean, the album is not, I think, your manager,
when I interviewed him, he said, this is not an
album of like, revenge songs or like, it's not, you know,
Alanis Morissette, Jagged Little Pill or a. Olivia Rodrigo, Rodrigo's, um,
what's what's her I can't remember the name of sour.
Sour is the name of her album.
S3 (05:36):
Yeah, it's.
S2 (05:37):
Not at all.
S3 (05:38):
It's actually not about my marriage at all. Or that
relationship or my ex-husband. Like, it's it's very much about
me moving on and trying to figure out what my
new identity is going to be, and finding myself in
a place that I had never planned for. Which, you know,
(05:58):
I guess no one really ever plans to get divorced
and be a single mom. Um, and I yeah, I
just found myself really, really lost. So this album was
a way of trying to kind of dig myself out
of that place. Bit by bit, song by song.
S2 (06:16):
Yeah. I mean, we talked a lot about this in
the interviews, but your songs, The Story for the ages
is really about like what we think about taking on
marriage as this, this story that we're part of, and
it's going to be forever. And then what happens when
it falls apart and trying to grapple grapple with that. Mhm. Um,
(06:38):
and I think yeah, I think we talked we talked
a lot about how you particularly looked at your parents
for an example of a marriage that was very strong
and stable, that provided you with that stability, and then
how you feel now and grappling with that as well.
S3 (06:55):
Yeah, I think growing up in a family that was very,
just very strong and together and I don't know, we
we always kind of prided ourselves on being a really
close family. Yeah. Um, having these family dinners and I
don't know, I guess I just always held my mom
and dad's marriage in really high regard, you know, as
(07:17):
life goals. Um, and I wanted that for my kids
as well. I wanted a really together family, you know,
that lasted the test of time. And, um, I was. Yeah,
I was just. So I guess I was just so
disappointed in myself for somehow not making that happen and
(07:37):
not making it work. And so I guess there was
a lot of shame that I was grappling with and
when I was writing these songs, I was just, yeah,
trying to confront that head on and go, what? Where's
this shame coming from? Where's this guilt coming from? And
is it justified, or should I give myself a bit
(07:59):
of a break? There's a song called The Second Act,
which is the title track of the album, where I
am trying to tell myself to to go easy on myself.
You know that we're all we're all humans. We're all
kind of fumbling our way through and nobody knows what
they're doing. Everyone's just acting. Well.
S4 (08:18):
I think I'm ready.
UU (08:21):
For the turning of the wheel.
S4 (08:25):
Find fresh waters for these old wounds to heal.
UU (08:34):
All that it took to try to succeed.
S2 (08:40):
I loved your reflection about. We put this value on forever. Um,
but it's a big thing to carry on your shoulders.
It is. And then also, I loved your reflection. I
think it was again, in probably the last interview we
had where you talked about maybe, you know, maybe it's
better to have a couple of, you know, soul nourishing
(09:01):
relationships rather than one long, mediocre one.
S3 (09:04):
Yeah, I think a lot of people said settle for
a long, mediocre one, to be honest. Yeah, I think
I just it's funny coming out the other side of it.
I'm you start noticing these kind of very strong kind
of cultural obsessions that we have, and one of them
is longevity at all costs. I think, like staying in
(09:25):
a marriage at all costs, you know, or staying with
the one job, you know, everyone applauds that. You know,
these people, these old people who've been doing the same
thing for 50 years or 60 years, but no one
seems to prioritize whether that person was actually happy doing
that or feeling fulfilled. You know, it's all about. Did
you stick it out? You know, it's this kind of
(09:45):
hard work ethic that we've got. So I just wish
there'd been a bit more, um, yeah, a bit more
focus on on a really good quality relationship, regardless of
how long that lasts. And I like the idea of
looking at my marriage as this beautiful thing that lasted
nine years. You know, not this failure that only lasted
(10:06):
nine years. Absolutely.
S2 (10:07):
Yeah. Nine years is a long time. It is.
S3 (10:09):
It is. Yeah. Um, and we did it really well,
I think, like, we we had a great friendship and
a lot of love for each other, and we've managed
to navigate the end of it really well too. So
I'm quite I'm quite proud of us in that respect. Yeah.
S2 (10:22):
I think that's that's lovely that the co-parenting relationship has
morphed into a loving relationship as well. It's that's important.
S3 (10:30):
Yeah, I think so. And I think that I can
be proud of myself for that because, um, you know,
that that takes a lot of effort and it takes
a lot of kind of compassion when you don't necessarily
want to feel compassion, you know, like there can be
resentment or anger bubbling up and you're like, no, we've
got to stay civil. We've got to remain friends. We've
(10:52):
got to do this together, even if it's tricky. And so, yeah, we've,
we've we've maintained a really good kind of level of
respect for each other, I think throughout it all. And
I think both of us know that it's important that
we remain a pretty like, as close as possible for
the kids sake. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (11:12):
Uh, as part of the piece, I went to see
your show at the Palais. So this is such a
special show because you're doing your new stuff in the beginning,
and then the entire Sound of White, your breakthrough album,
which was an absolute mega selling album. Um, so in
the second act of the show, you do the whole thing.
(11:33):
Not not in order of the songs, is it? It's
sort of a bit jumbled up.
S3 (11:37):
No. Yeah. It's not quite in order of the album.
It didn't really work for a live show because, you know,
scars right up the front of the album. So I
didn't want to play that first.
S2 (11:46):
Yeah. And so what I loved and as part of
the article, I spoke to Rachel Perkins, your friend and filmmaker,
and she had the same thing that I had, which
was this just just loving watching people around us as
they I mean, as they cried and laughed and I
cried and laughed, I was just so. I was so,
(12:09):
so shocked at times at how kind of like raw
and revealing you were on stage. What has it been
like on this tour? You've done 40 shows to about
80,000 people now. Like, what's it been like?
S3 (12:22):
Yeah, it's been like one massive therapy session, to be honest,
like five months of therapy. Um, if therapy was, you know,
standing in front of a few thousand people and being
applauded for expressing, Expressing your emotions. Um, yeah. It's been
so amazing. I think it's been the most incredible tour
(12:43):
I've ever done, because it's not only playing my new
music and telling these stories and anecdotes that are so
raw and honest and kind of unflattering, like, I'm just
talking about being a mess the whole time, really, in
the first act and then, um, you know, singing songs
(13:04):
about hating myself and things like that, you know, like,
it's not very. I said to someone, I was like,
it's not very sexy. This new album, like, it's not
like anyone's going to want to date me after this.
And then and then there's an interval, and then the
second half is me playing the sound of white.
UU (13:20):
And we will only need each other. We'll bleed together.
Our hands will not be taught to hold another's. Cause
we're the special two. And we could only see each other.
We'll breathe together. These arms will not be taught to
(13:42):
need another's cause. Where? The special two.
S3 (13:49):
And I've just been so blown away by the reaction
to this anniversary tour. Like so many people have kind
of come out of the woodwork and told me how
important my first album was to them, and even young
singer songwriters, kind of coming up now, are telling me
that I was an influence, or that my first album
(14:10):
was an influence on them, and I really had no idea.
I mean, I knew it was popular back in the day,
but I didn't realize that people still listen to that
album or they still thought it was, you know, an
important piece of work. And yeah, it's, um, it's changed
my whole perspective on that album.
S2 (14:28):
In what way? Like, you appreciate it more?
S3 (14:31):
Yeah, I think I appreciate it more. I mean, I
always appreciated it for kicking off my career and being
the reason why, you know, um, I was able to
tour so much and keep on touring because of the
success of of that album and build upon that. But
I appreciate it even more now because I realized that
(14:53):
it's yeah, it's it's stood the test of time for
a lot of people. And I don't know why that
album in particular, but it has. So it must have
some sort of special quality to it. And, um, you know,
there's a I almost don't feel responsible for it because
I feel like a completely different person to who I
was 20 years ago. But I'm. Yeah, I'm really grateful
(15:15):
for it.
S2 (15:15):
Yeah. I think it's fascinating because I had no idea
that there was this group of totally rusted on Missy
Higgins fans that really follow you around, and they've really
sustained your career, I think, because that you don't get
played a lot on commercial radio. Mhm. Um but these
I think it's something to do perhaps with the, the
(15:36):
honesty and vulnerability of the songs, but also that these
and they, they mostly are women but men too. Mhm.
Um who have had it kind of like I say
in the story like kind of, you know, it's part
of their neuro wiring of their because they're in adolescence
and it's all around there anyway. And it's, it's that,
you know, those albums when you are just, they're just
(15:57):
really important to you when you're a teenager or a
late teenager. Yeah. And it becomes part of your brain almost.
I think maybe, maybe it's about that. But it was
definitely a it was very emotional. Like I felt the
the shows were emotional, um, partly because of the old stuff,
but also your new stuff like that song about, you know,
a complicated truth about having to tell your daughter about
(16:21):
why you can't live with daddy anymore. Was is just
people cry in the audience and I think they're crying
for all sorts of different reasons. What's what's your take
on that?
S3 (16:32):
Yeah, there's, um, there's there's audible sobbing in the audience
when I play that song. It's quite it's quite intense.
Can you paint.
S2 (16:40):
The picture of how you write that song and.
S3 (16:43):
Yeah, I wrote that song, um, after my daughter had
obviously some sort of. She'd had some sort of realization, um,
whether it was after reading her, you know, her fairy
tales or her storybooks or maybe noticing the TV shows
or the families at school not looking like ours. And, um,
(17:05):
she started asking why daddy couldn't live in the same
house with us, and she started asking about marriage. And,
you know, I explained to her what marriage was and
what it meant. And then and then she was like, well,
if you gave each other rings and made promises, then
how how can you just decide to not be married
and break that promise. And I was, you know, we
(17:29):
were driving along in the car while she was asking
me these questions from the back seat, and my heart
was just breaking. And I really I didn't know really
how to answer her in a way that a five
year old might understand. Um, and it happened to it
happened a few times in a row. Um, so, yeah,
(17:52):
one of those days when she was when the kids
were at their dad's house, I had the house to
myself and it was feeling particularly empty. And it was
a cold, windy day outside. And I just sat down
at my piano and I thought, I'm going to try
and put into words what I couldn't say to her
in the car.
S4 (18:11):
The trees are swaying.
UU (18:13):
Out the window and you're not with me.
S4 (18:18):
Today. You're with him. And that's okay. That's It's okay.
UU (18:26):
I hope you're running round in circles.
S4 (18:30):
I hope you're laughing till you drop. Hope you're feeling
safe I hope you're feeling loved. The days are longer
when you're not here. I've been staring at the sky.
Wondering what I used to do with all my time.
(18:56):
You're a universe of starlight.
S3 (19:01):
And it took a long time to write that song.
Because I really wanted to say it the right way.
And I knew that it would be a special thing
for her to listen back to one day. You know,
when she was old enough to understand, but I was
I was hoping that it might well, for both my kids. Really.
I was hoping that it might, um, allow them to
understand things from our perspective a little bit better.
S2 (19:23):
But it's also works both ways. I think it's like
it it sort of hits for parents who are struggling
to to tell their kids a similar thing at the moment,
but also for those adults who were those children in
the back seat? Do you think?
S3 (19:39):
Yeah, there's a lot of, um, adults that come up
to me or message me about that song and say,
you know, I was I was sitting with my mum
during that song, and we were both holding each other
and crying, and my mum was saying, this is exactly
what I felt. You know, when me and your father
split up or, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot of
(20:01):
kind of parent child relationships or coming to my shows and, and,
and then come kind of sitting in the audience and
seeing themselves in that song. Um, so, yeah, whether it's
the child or the parent or, you know, someone who
went through that a long time ago when they were young,
I find that a lot of people can can relate
(20:21):
to it.
S2 (20:37):
How do you feel being so vulnerable on stage? How
does that how does that feel for you?
S3 (20:43):
Um, I think I've had a lot of practice over
the years. I think my songs have always been pretty vulnerable. Um, pretty,
you know, straight from the heart. But I think over
the last 20 years, I've kind of, I've started giving
myself more and more on stage. And I think as
(21:04):
I've gotten older, I've become more comfortable to really be
myself completely up there. And little by little, I've found
that the more real I can be, the more it's appreciated.
You know I've never been a kind of a character performer?
I've never been somebody who has a stage persona. It's
(21:26):
always been just me, you know? Like my friends come
to the shows and they're like, yeah, you're just yourself
up there. Yeah. Um, and I feel like with this
album in particular, it's so full on and honest, I
kind of have to I have to preface it with
a bit of a, you know, a.
S2 (21:43):
Content warning or. No. Yeah, well.
S3 (21:45):
I don't know. I feel like it's almost weird if
I was to be really kind of demure and quiet
in between the songs and then just come out with
this full on, like baring my absolute guts to this,
to the audience, if I don't kind of, um, chat
to them like human beings or friends as well. Like
(22:06):
it's got to be all part of the same show,
I think so. So it feels like we're just otherwise
it might feel a little bit uncomfortable, like, wow, she
just revealed so much. And then she's really quiet and
reserved in between songs like What's Going On? Does she?
Does she regret writing on such an honest song? Is
she shy about it? So I need to let them
know that it's okay. I'm fine with the fact that I've.
(22:27):
I've admitted all this stuff in my songs because I'll
chat to you about it like it's all part of
the same thing. It's all me, you know?
S2 (22:34):
Yeah, yeah. And the other song that I really love
is You Should Run, which is about dating, I guess
dating as a single mother, really. And like, all of the.
And also this time of life, you know, like, it's
just not the same as it was and that you,
you come, as you say in the song, like there's
(22:56):
a package, there's like, yeah, two little humans and the
house is messy and yeah, you know, and also you
can't make him or her whatever. Number one, it's really
it's really tricky.
S3 (23:08):
Yeah. There's quite a, there's maybe 4 or 5 songs
on the album about trying to date again after this
big break up and being a single mum because yeah,
it is so complicated and it's so messy and you
feel like you're just bringing so much into the life,
like so much baggage, and they're never going to be
your priority. And I think that's really hard for some people,
(23:32):
especially if they don't have kids. It's really hard for
them to accept that you're really not going to have
that much time to see them, especially during the week.
And it's all going to depend on, you know, whether
you've got them, whether you've got the kids or not,
and what your schedule is like, and it's just your
capacity for giving yourself to somebody else isn't like it
was in your 20s when you were single.
S2 (23:53):
You can't give you can't give 100%.
S3 (23:56):
No, no. And it's a shame because, you know, it's
that's I remember that being such a beautiful feeling, like
you just fall completely into something, you know, before kids,
you could just, you know, immerse yourself in each other
and just lie around in bed all day and just, like,
stare into each other's eyes and get lost. But there's
(24:19):
just not. That's just not life anymore. So, um, yeah,
it takes a bit of adjusting.
S2 (24:24):
Yeah. I wanted to talk briefly with you about the
way that you manage your tour and your band, because
that sort of came up when I was talking to
people about, um, how you do that. You've got a
lot of you make a real effort to include women
who have young kids. It's almost like you had a
band full of pregnant people for a while. Yeah.
S3 (24:46):
And now we've got a creche backstage, basically. So.
S2 (24:49):
So how does that work? What do you do to
make that work?
S3 (24:51):
Yeah, I just, um. Well, I know that a lot
of women, when they get pregnant in my industry, people
stop calling and they stop hiring them for tours. They
stop even asking if they want to do it. Um,
but I, I made a concerted effort to Not only
(25:12):
like ask if they wanted to do it when they
were pregnant, also when they had newborns. But encourage them
and say, you know, we'll I'll pay for a nanny.
You know, we'll we'll get you a separate car with
a car seat and just kind of make it as, um,
doable for them as possible. Um, because I know that
it can get really, really hard and you can feel
(25:33):
a bit invisible once you start, once you're pregnant, and
then you have a kid because people think you're just
not able to do the things that you did before.
And yeah, it can be harder. I mean, you've got
a baby in tow, and that's not always easy, but
it can be a beautiful experience taking your kid on
the road and having them with you. And, you know,
when they're really young, you can do that because they
don't have to go to school. So it can be
(25:54):
a special time. And because there's so many women in
my band, we all just we all just love it.
And we all love having kids backstage. And, you know,
sometimes everybody has their kid at a show. So soundcheck
is literally like, there's more kids on stage than there
is grown ups. but, um. Yeah, it's really it's really sweet.
I love it, it brings a really good vibe to
the to the to backstage.
S2 (26:15):
And also probably does extend the careers of some of
your band members. Were saying, well, one of them was
saying that she didn't even know whether as a touring
session musician, that she would have a career.
S3 (26:27):
Yeah.
S2 (26:28):
After kids.
S3 (26:28):
Yeah. Because historically it's been, you know, a time when
women do disappear and people stop calling. And, um, once
that happens for a few years, you just get out
of the loop. And so people, people just don't think
you're available anymore. And, um, it's something it's one of
those things where you just kind of, you kind of
(26:49):
have to stay in it in order to have that longevity.
So women don't they? You know, a lot of the
time they don't want to take that time off because
they want to still be able to do it in,
you know, in ten years time or 15 years time.
But in order to do that, they've got to make
sure that people know that there are still a touring musician.
S2 (27:08):
So, Missy, you've now finished these 40 shows. What's next
for you?
S3 (27:14):
What's next is well, because all the shows sold out,
which is kind of mind blowing in itself, um, we
have decided to put on a bunch of big shows
at the end of the year, so like half a
dozen encore shows so that anyone that missed out on
tickets could hopefully come to one of those. And we're
(27:35):
playing at the Sidney Myer Music Bowl and the Sydney
Opera House forecourt. So some really beautiful venues. So hopefully
anyone that didn't manage to get to one of these
40 shows can come to one of those at the
end of the year.
S2 (27:48):
And the other thing I wanted to talk to you
about was you were talking about your reflections. You turned
40 last year, that you've started to sort of think
a bit about women aging and how that affects women
who are, um, who are middle aged. Mhm.
S3 (28:04):
Yeah, I mean, maybe it happens to everyone once they
turn 40, but you start, you start kind of reflecting on, um,
the fact that you're starting to not look like you
did and you're starting to not look like all the other, um, the,
the younger generation of female singers doing what you are doing. And, uh, yeah,
(28:30):
I'm grappling with it a little bit because it's, there
is this kind of cultural obsession with women staying the
same age and, um, and not being desirable anymore. Once
they start to get wrinkles and they start to sag
a bit. Whereas men seem to stay desirable, once they
get wrinkles and start to sag, it doesn't seem to matter, um,
(28:53):
in society's eyes, that that men age, they still remain
kind of sexy and and, um, It's quite confronting as
a woman to be like, okay, I'm moving into that
age where, um, people start, uh, treating you differently, and
(29:16):
it's not so much it. Yeah. You're moving into a
kind of a different category. I mean, I've never I've
never used my. I feel lucky that I've never used
my body or sex appeal. I don't think to to
sell music, which I'm glad about because there's a time
limit on that, whereas it's not a time limit on
(29:37):
your brain or your or your capacity to, like, make
good music. So I feel I'm glad that I didn't
do that, because now I don't have to worry so
much about, like, maintaining my sexiness or my like, bikini
body to in my video shoots. Yeah. Um, but I
think any woman moving into their 40s is. Yeah, is
(30:00):
confronted with that And it's it's a conscious decision to go,
I'm going to I'm going to talk to myself with compassion.
I'm going to talk to myself, to my reflection in
the mirror in a way that I would want my
child to talk to themselves. And I'm going to, especially
when you have a daughter, like I'm looking at my
daughter and going, I've really got to learn to love
(30:22):
myself no matter what I look like, so that I'm
modeling that for her. Because if I'm always kind of
criticizing myself or I'm I'm moaning about getting older, then
she's going to be terrified about getting older as well.
So she's going to, you know, she's going to adapt
or she's going to adopt those, um, kind of negative
feelings towards herself. So, yeah, I think having a daughter
(30:44):
and also just moving into this stage of my life
is kind of there's a lot of conscious, kind talking
that I have to do to myself.
S2 (30:55):
Yes.
S3 (30:56):
Which which isn't always easy. But like every day I'm
trying to remind myself that it's important. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (31:02):
And lastly, Missy, I was wondering where you are at now.
Like you said, this has been like a five month
therapy session, and you've sort of, um, come out the
other side. You've had all these people come to your shows.
You've been. It must be so bizarre doing that, that
kind of teenage missy. Missy Higgins and the the sort
(31:26):
of 41 year old Missy Higgins material. But where where
are you at now? Do you feel like you have
any answers to the questions that you're posing around midlife
and these sorts of crises that we face often in this,
this weird, as you say, the weird middle act? I
think you said it was one of your quotes.
S3 (31:46):
Yeah. The in-between.
S2 (31:47):
The in-between between.
S3 (31:50):
No, I don't have any answers. I guess my the
only thing I've figured out is that there isn't really
any answers. I think there's kind of a wisdom, a
wisdom to, you know, coming to that realization that it's
all just everyone's just fumbling their way through. And I've learned,
I think over the course of the last five months,
(32:10):
that time will just do whatever it wants to do
with you. And there's no forcing yourself to be at
a stage you're not, and there's no forcing yourself to
be ready for something if you're not like, I can't
force myself to be completely over the heartbreak and and
really confident and empowered for the next stage. If I'm
(32:31):
not feeling that yet, but it'll probably come. Yeah, and
I'm getting closer to that. And the last five months
has definitely helped get me closer to that. I don't
think I'm grieving anymore. Um, I actually feel like I'm like,
I'm in a really good place right now because I'm not.
I'm really enjoying just being by myself. I don't feel
(32:51):
like I need a relationship at all. In fact, I
think it's probably much better to not because I don't
have any time or space, and that's kind of stressful.
The thought of trying to make time for someone else. Um,
and I'm putting any extra energy I have into just
trying to be the best mum that I can. Um,
(33:13):
especially after five months of touring. Yes. Not being there
as much as I would have liked. Um, but yeah,
I think that the last five months has helped me
move through the difficult grieving stage and be more prepared for,
I guess, the unknown future, and accepting that I'm never
(33:34):
going to know what's going to happen tomorrow, but kind
of being okay with that. You know, I don't have
to write my I don't have to write a story
for myself, because if I did, you know, I'd just
be disappointed that it didn't come true. So just take
whatever happens and always be open to new experiences. That's
my current motto.
S2 (33:54):
Thanks, Missy for coming in. No worries. It's been lovely
talking to you over various times now, so thanks.
S3 (34:01):
We've had quite a lot of big chats now we've
gone deep.
S2 (34:05):
We have. So thanks for coming in, Missy.
S3 (34:07):
No worries. Thank you.
S1 (34:13):
Good weekend. Talks is brought to you by the Sydney
Morning Herald and The Age. Subscriptions power our newsrooms to
support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?
And if you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe,
rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts. This episode
(34:34):
of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing
from Konrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and
Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
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