November 25, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode, we talk to Mitch Brown. The retired AFL player recently came out as bisexual, making him the first (current or former) openly queer player in the league’s 129-year history. He describes growing up in country Victoria with his twin brother and fellow gifted athlete, Nathan, and how he made the move interstate when drafted by the West Coast Eagles in 2006. Brown played 94 games before retiring almost a decade later, having married professional netball player Shae Bolton-Brown, with whom he has two little boys. In conversation with Good Weekend deputy editor Konrad Marshall, he also talks about playing it straight in footy – and why he made the call to finally share his sexuality with the public.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:34):
stories of the day. On today's episode, we talk to
Mitch Brown. The 36 year old grew up in country
Victoria in Ballarat, where he was a gifted athlete along
with his twin brother Nathan. The pair went to Saint
Patrick's College, a so-called football factory that's produced an array
of AFL stars, including everyone from Daniel Rioli to Danny
(00:54):
Frawley and then, of course, the Brown Boys. Nathan was
taken by Collingwood with pick ten in the 2006 draft,
and Mitch was selected not long after with pick 16
by the West Coast Eagles. He moved to Perth, made
a career for himself and although hit hard by injury,
missing two entire seasons, he played 94 games before retiring
almost a decade later. Mitch was also married to professional
(01:18):
netball player Shae Bolton Brown, with whom he has two
little boys, and he might have remained among the ranks
of largely anonymous footy players until a decision he made
in August when he came out as bisexual, becoming the
first senior AFL player, current or retired to do so
in the 129 year history of the competition. He's here
(01:39):
today in the studio to talk about his life before
and after that big reveal and what comes next. Welcome, Mitch.
S2 (01:46):
Thanks, Conrad. Well, it's it's like hearing you speak about
my life. It's still surreal. Um, you know, it's been
a big couple of months it's been since, you know,
the original interview where I did decide to announce to Australia,
(02:07):
the world, maybe. Yeah. That you know about my sexuality
to shine a spotlight on on, you know, safety and
inclusivity in sport and particularly for me, men's AFL competition. Um, yeah. Uh,
it's crazy. And I've been trying to ride the wave. And,
you know, part of it's a big thing for for
(02:29):
my life. You're like, if I wasn't a footballer, if
I didn't come out publicly or people weren't interested in it,
it coming out internally, even to my family, to my brother,
it's still a big thing for my own life as
as just a human. So like, even that in itself
is huge for me. And I'm dealing with all those emotions, um,
(02:50):
the different types of nuances with relationships, people with, you know,
that didn't know or have known me for a long time.
Like my twin brother. Yeah. Um, and then you got this.
This public side of it, and. Yeah, I chose to
to come out publicly, um, for a reason, and we
can touch on that. But, you know, it's been a big,
(03:11):
yeah phase, you know, post interview. And not many people
know that I'm working full time as well.
S1 (03:17):
Yeah. Okay.
S2 (03:18):
Normal programming.
S1 (03:19):
Are you up to.
S2 (03:19):
I got I got two kids. Um, yeah. I work
in a consulting job, and, um, they've been amazing to.
To balance. I guess it's not this responsibility. No one
has ever put an obligation onto me to. To continue
to share my story or continue to advocate for the
(03:40):
queer community or more specifically, safety inclusivity within men's sports
or these hyper hyper masculine environments. But in saying this, like,
I feel like I have this unique opportunity. That's a good.
S1 (03:53):
Way to look at it, an opportunity rather than a
responsibility or an obligation.
S2 (03:57):
Yeah. At this opportunity. Because right now I am the
only public bisexual, gay, gay man or current former footballer
that you know is speaking out that has had that
perspective of playing in the AFL men's competition as a professional.
(04:18):
So with that, I don't know whether, you know, I
remember Gill McLaughlin described the former CEO of the AFL,
described it as a burden for this person. Um, you know,
whether that's a burden for me or a gift to
be able to continue to share my story or to talk.
I feel that whilst people are listening, in particular people
(04:42):
that may not have listened before, um, to a queer
man or someone in the queer community, that I do
have this responsibility and obligation as a custodian, and I
do a lot of work in the consulting world with
First Nations people. And, and, um, I really connect with this,
this word or this, this, um, this notion around custodianship.
(05:05):
And for me right now, my obligation to this space
and the space of providing a safe and inclusive space
for the next person is to make it a little
bit better for them. And and that's what custodianship is
all about. And that's, you know, that's the, the mentality,
I guess, you know, in this next little phase, um,
(05:28):
that I'm going to adopt and, and really believe and
buy into.
S1 (05:32):
Blunt question. Big question may be hard to answer. Question
why do you think you're the first. Like why do
you think it took more than a century for any
professional AFL player, um, to share this kind of news
with the world?
S2 (05:49):
It's a great question, Conrad, and like, I have had
time to think about this and, Mind you, like when
when I was playing the conversation around who would be
the first person or, you know, in the locker rooms,
like who is it? Who is actually is that person
and which is quite toxic in itself. But like, what
would the reaction be and why? We would talk about
(06:11):
it quite often and it would come up in the
media time and time and you'd talk about it. So
I have had some time to think about this. And
Australian rules football is quite unique in itself. It's, you know,
it's it's played in different parts of the world but
is uniquely Australian and it is, if you like, in
its own silo and it's quite protected. And I think
(06:36):
that if you like it or not, the Aussie Rules
game is, is embedded into our, you know, the Australian
psyche and culture. And, you know, it's not just this
sporting thing, it sits in its own place in our
society and it has so much influence over a lot
of people. And because for so long, what is it
(07:00):
like 100 and I mean 120 years since the, you know,
it was only a solely a men's competition professionally and
then ten seasons ago. That's rough numbers, but it would
be around that. It's only been a men's competition and
it's been that sacred. You know, you know that that
representation of the Australian man. And I think it's it's
(07:22):
built this environment where if you like it or not,
it's just it's not safe to be able to step
outside of that brand, that brand of what it means
to be an Australian man and the straightness in that
and the lack of diversity because it's not played around
the world, um, can contribute to that. And, you know,
(07:47):
and for a player, like, it's one thing to feel
safe and supported by your teammates and the club environment.
But then like you remember, it's like average crowd. So
like 30,000 plus every weekend. And then the supporter base
is a you know, especially if you look at the
(08:09):
ratios of our population in Australia, like there's a lot
of people out there and you can hear them and
hear what they say. And, you know, it's it's almost
to a point, like your career is so short, it's
not worth it to, to to come out.
S1 (08:24):
And yeah.
S2 (08:25):
You know, I believe that like I believe that. And
that was the the general consensus consensus around the playing
group when we talk about it many years ago about
this player is like, well, why would you come out?
Why would you take on this burden that could potentially
disrupt your career, your performance.
S1 (08:42):
Your team.
S2 (08:43):
Your team, your ability to make income? Why do that
when you can just like play straight in a straight game,
and then afterwards right off into the sunset and do
what you want in your community and come out then. Yeah. Um,
whether it's public or not.
S1 (09:00):
I want to go to another question. It's one that
comes up every single time someone comes out in sport
these days. It's a question I heard when young soccer
player Josh Cavallo came out, when basketball player Isaac Humphries
came out. There's two word question. Do you know what
the question is? Who cares?
S2 (09:19):
And it's weird that I didn't get that because I.
S1 (09:24):
Know that one right. You hear that one? We hear
it again and again and again. I think it's I
think it's well-meaning from people that some from some people
they're wanting to show, like, I don't consider you being
gay a big deal. So I'm gonna say, oh, who cares?
You know, it's.
S2 (09:41):
Interesting, and I'd love to talk to, uh, the person
who studies human psyche. I'm sure there's a name for that. Um,
but I don't know, like, there is like. And this
is not just around in the the realm of sexuality
and homophobia and, um, the queer community is like a
(10:03):
lot of people just aren't equipped enough to be able
to know what to say. You know, I remember when
one of my good friends, um, growing up, his sister
was tragically killed in a car accident, and I was
there when he was told over the phone, I just
didn't know what to say to him. Um, so I
probably just blab it out if anything. And there's an
(10:24):
element of that. It's like, well, wow, Mitch, you've come out.
And this is so abnormal for the Australian rules football
in the men's competition. I don't know how to deal
with that. Or in your friendship groups when you don't
have anyone queer or gay or bi. And that happens.
It's almost like, you know, there's some silence from my
mates for, for a couple of weeks because I didn't
(10:46):
know what to say to me.
S1 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (10:47):
Um, But the notion around who cares? I think there's
a couple of parts of it. It's like, well, I
kind of laugh at it because you care enough to
to look at the the media or the article and
then comment. So yeah. You care? Yeah. Um, but then
there's a and I've seen this and this is my
(11:08):
observation and, and you know, my opinion around this is
like we in Australia, especially men, if someone stands up
steps outside the box and we've seen it not just
in the queer community, but, you know, for people in
diverse demographics and, you know, you know, Adam Goodes, a
number of years ago, if someone steps out and calls
(11:31):
something out or makes people feel uncomfortable, we're like, we're
kind of okay and kind enough to go, oh, well done, mate.
Good job. We'll take you for a, for a for
a day or a few Instagram posts, a few interviews.
But if you keep continuing to talk about this and
keep showing it, keep showing up on my feed or
(11:55):
and keep talking, then you're making me feel a little
bit uncomfortable. Can you get get back inside your box?
And you know, whether it's the comment of who cares?
They're trying to say that, you know, who cares? Get
back inside your box like we don't want to talk about.
We don't want to hear this. It's because it's uncomfortable
and it's confronting. Mhm. Um, and you know, that's you
(12:17):
know that's one of the things that I mean it's
trailblazing like people have mentioned that and I admire so
many of the AFL players in true trailblazers of, of
trying to, you know, bring up women's AFL and, and
the things that they have to go through and they
(12:39):
keep turning up and they're my role models in this.
And you know, I, I'm committed to not going back
inside my box because I know that a lot of
people need to, you know, have have this sense of
awkwardness and be confronted. And if, you know, we're going
to ever move the dial in terms of having queer
representation in these hyper masculine environments, in sport in particular,
(13:03):
then it's going to make for a lot of uncomfortable conversations,
challenging ones. And, and in, you know, Conrad, like, I
always take a beat and ground myself and remind myself that,
you know, I need to have I need to have the,
(13:24):
the attitude that even within myself to meet people where
they're at and not expect them to understand my sexuality
or understand bisexuality, or I want to be able to
sit down and go, hey, like what? What makes it
confronting for you and what makes it really hard for
you to listen to me, you know, say the words
(13:45):
I'm bisexual or I'm attracted to men. And let's talk
about that because, you know, if they're the ones that
we're trying to, you know, if they're blocking the way
to make a safer place. You know, I've got two
young boys, Conrad. And if I want them to grow
up in a safe environment where they're at school or
in their sporting club, if we're going to do that,
like we these people that are that are blocking that,
(14:09):
I want to sit down and talk to them about
that and try and get them a little bit closer
to understanding, um, that sense of acceptance and, and, and
safety for all beauty.
S1 (14:21):
Here's what, um, Isaac Humphries said, actually, when I mentioned
that to him, because a few people were saying it
on radio at the time, he was really well spoken
on it. It was like the response is, a lot
of people care. You may not, but a lot of people,
millions of people who don't have a voice or representation,
care a lot. Just because homophobia is not in your
immediate line of thinking doesn't mean it's not affecting a
(14:42):
lot of people. So who cares? The little kid down
the street who really loves basketball and feels confused and
conflicted and not welcome because of who he is. That's
who cares. Or someone who's battling every day with thoughts
about suicide and sees my video and has a tiny
bit of hope. That's who cares. It's me who had
no example to look up to as a gay man
in basketball. I care. I've had hundreds of messages from
(15:05):
people all around the world. I've had people stop me
on the side of the street or on the court
after games. You might think gay is being gay is normalized,
but there's still so much backwards thinking in the world.
We are not there yet. That's the brutal reality. It
baffles me when people say, who cares? Who doesn't care?
S2 (15:23):
Wow.
S1 (15:24):
Uh, he says it all.
S2 (15:26):
That's that's amazing. I mean, I got little goosebumps hearing that.
S1 (15:30):
Can I ask what the response was like for you?
The the good and the bad. And maybe, maybe we
will start with the good. Like. And we could start
with individuals like people that, you know, and then maybe
also Strangers. Like, what was it like? Did you just
that podcast happened and then is your phone just kind
(15:51):
of lighting up for a fortnight afterwards or.
S2 (15:54):
It's still lights up? Yeah. So it went out. Um,
it was around about ended up being about 11:10 on
that Wednesday morning, 28th of August. And um, you know what?
You know who the first person was to message me.
(16:15):
And so this person and is interesting to hear Isaac
Humphries and to to talk about he had no role models,
queer role models in basketball to follow. And, you know,
for me, in my footy career, I had no one,
no other player. You know, that's why I was so
(16:35):
important for the AFL players to enter the competition, because
they then became my role models, queer footballers in the
professional that I could relate to. I didn't have a
role model, and I remember halfway through my career, I
think there was like this, um, workshop that we had
and this picture came up on in the lecture theatre
(16:57):
and it was Daniel Kowalski, the the Olympic swimmer. Yep. Um,
and I grew up loving the Olympics, and I loved
Daniel Kowalski and Kieren Perkins and how they used to
verse each other in the 1500. And it was his
story about his coming out story. And I know it
wasn't initially positive for him. He was sort of forced out. Um,
(17:19):
but then he and he stood there and in this
photo was like, you know, I'm Daniel Kowalski out and
proud and and I just had this smile on his
face and I, like, sat there in that lecture theatre.
I didn't know him at the time. And I saw
that picture and I was like, I just felt something.
I could I could see the joy. I just was like, oh, man.
(17:41):
Like it's, it's it's there in the future or it's,
it's that's and that was many years ago and I
was fortunate enough to cross paths with, with Daniel, um,
on a professional level with some, you know, some sporting stuff.
He's now the works for the AOC. And the the
(18:04):
interview went out at 11, 11:10, and I funny enough,
I got a LinkedIn message. That was the first message
I got. And it was from Daniel Kowalski.
S1 (18:14):
Wow.
S2 (18:15):
And it was like he just. Yeah. He didn't have
the words to describe what it meant. And then he
followed up with another beautiful message and and then I
for the first time, I let him know that he
was my role model those many years ago. And it
was a special moment between myself and Daniel in those
(18:35):
text message exchanges on LinkedIn. Um, so there was some
really special messages. There was these messages of, um, I mean,
more celebrational like celebratory and, um, happiness and joy, which
is really fantastic because I was quite nervous about self-conscious
about the reaction. Um, and then these messages of which
(19:01):
became the most important. And, um, you know, I can
really relate to what you read out with, you know,
Isaac said about the people in the street and the
people and the little boy that's sitting there and that's
confused about his sexuality, but doesn't have anyone to talk
to or relate to. You know, those messages start to
come through. And this is where the whole argument of
(19:25):
the burden or the gift, and this is where it
truly becomes a gift, because a lot of people, a
lot of young people, a lot of middle aged men
that are in straight marriages, relationships Hips felt safe enough
to confide in me and message me, their story and
(19:46):
their experiences. And I can tell you there are thousands
of those messages. Yeah, tens of thousands of messages. And,
you know, as as these came through, I was just like, wow.
I said to my partner, Laura was like, I like,
how can you not read something like this when someone
can not tell anyone else in the world, not even
(20:07):
their partner, not even their parents, their mum and dad,
their best mates, they felt safe enough to share this
with me. Like, how can I not take this on?
And you know, those messages came through and I made
a commitment to write back and respond and take it on. And,
you know, it took a toll. I want to be honest,
(20:30):
it took a toll, but it just meant so much
to me. And I remember there was this kid that
in my local cafe that I would go down every
morning and get a coffee and I'll chat to him and.
And then a couple of days after I was sitting down,
he comes out of the other side of the the
(20:50):
bench of the coffee machine, and he comes to me
and he looks at me and there's tears in his
eyes and he goes, hey, Mitch, I. And he's crying.
And he goes, I just want to say thank you. I'm.
I'm a gay man. And you don't know how much
this means to me. And like his emotion, he was shaking.
(21:15):
And I could tell what this meant. And that was
when the enormity of, like, what I had done really
hit home. And I've always maintained the fact that, you know,
I didn't do this for me. And I was quite
happily out within my own little friendship group and community, um,
(21:37):
straight representing and I've got a woman as a partner.
You know, I didn't have to do this, but I
thought I wanted to shine a spotlight on, you know,
homophobia in sport. More, more importantly, you know, whether you're
queer or not, your ability as a man was a
(21:58):
person in general to be able to show up as
you are and not what people think you should be. And,
you know, I, you know, so many people just in
their work environments and their sporting teams and their their
group chats and their family dinners that feel that they
can't be themselves. And being trapped in that. And that's
(22:23):
what ultimately is what I wanted to, you know, try
and move the dial on, um, which is um, it's
been crazy. And, you know, of course, like, I made
a point, Conrad, not to to really shine a light
on the homophobia and the hate in terms of the reaction. Yeah, yeah.
(22:44):
And because I like I'm really I wanted to maintain that. Hey,
you know, this is a this is a positive thing.
It's a positive experience. I want to be strength based
with my language. I want to make it, you know,
I want to make a space and a platform to go, well, hey,
we are ready to be able to have more queer players.
We are, you know, there is so much progress. But
(23:06):
it got to a point where I'm like, hang on. No, no,
I think there is a point where I need to
also mention that we still have a bit a bit
of work to do. Yeah. And you know, there's still
a lot of hate and still a lot of homophobia
that has come my way. And and, you know, I
didn't want to just be all, you know, sunshine and
(23:29):
rainbows and lollipops because people, you know, we don't like
to read the bad things and and we like to
think that. Oh, Mitch, this is amazing. Have you copped
any hate? And I'm like, yeah, I have. And people
be like, what you have have you like. Yeah a lot. Um,
especially when you start to really challenge the norms and the,
(23:52):
the male psyche around something so sacred for us here
in Australia as our Aussie Rules football and our locker
room and our sitting there at the pub. And you know,
when you start to really rock that people get, people
don't like it. Yep. And they want to they want
to put you back in that box. And yeah, it's like, hey,
(24:13):
you know, the amount of comments that are like, hey Mitch,
we love what you did, but this is a bit
too far, you know, attacking, attacking our mad Monday, attacking
our blah, blah, blah.
S1 (24:30):
Aside from kind of the more vile attacks and that
kind of direct homophobic fallout that you would imagine was
going to come your way. I want to address one element,
and that's the silence. So Isaac talked about this when
he came out. It was like, oh, I could handle
the the homophobic stuff. I knew that was going to
(24:51):
come my way. What really kind of hurt were the
people or the places that he didn't hear from, like
the American college that he had played for and loved
and gave his heart and soul for? He comes out
and they there's just not a word from the organization
or from any of his teammates. Um, and I feel
(25:14):
like that's something that you've brought up in the media
is like the, the silence from different places. So maybe
you could talk to us just about that. Yeah. The
way that that lack of affirmations can, can hurt.
S2 (25:27):
Yeah. It's, um. It did. Yeah. I think so much
for Isaacs. It's just so relatable, you know? The silence
was so loud, especially those first, you know, when. And
this goes for for anyone that's, you know, a bit
apprehensive about something they've done or the environment they're walking into.
(25:49):
They're so hyper sensitive. And you know, I was those
weeks post that interview, I was really hyper sensitive to
people's reactions, like, how are they going to react? What's
my brother going to say? What's my um, what's the
West Coast Eagles? You know, the team that I played
for all my career going to say and waiting for that.
And so hyper sensitive. And what you're also hypersensitive to
(26:11):
is the silence. And you know, they haven't said anything.
What's I mean, are they offended. Are they were they
homophobic like. And for me, you know, and this is
where like you just get so frustrated because you know,
you want to it does hurt. And you and you
and I've always maintained this is not about me. Like.
(26:36):
And people will go, well, me, me, me like you.
You're attention seeking or not. And you know, what people
need to understand is when a big, influential organization like
a football club or you know, your school or whatever,
acknowledge or acknowledge, not even they didn't have to say
(26:59):
my name or anything or Isaac's name, they acknowledge that, hey,
we we understand this, the, the, this specific significance of
what Mitch did. And we're going to use that to
acknowledge that we are an inclusive or we are striving
(27:20):
for safety, inclusivity in our community and our fans and our,
you know, acknowledging them. And you know what that means.
You know, some of those clubs that, you know, had like,
a lot of, a lot of people contact me and say, ah, sorry, Mitch.
My club didn't at least acknowledge anything. And as a
(27:40):
queer supporter of that club, you know, I'm you know
what that makes me feel like? It makes me feel
like absolute crap. And, you know, that's the point. And.
S1 (27:50):
You know, I hadn't heard it expressed that way. That's really. Yeah. Yeah.
Total sense.
S2 (27:54):
It's for them. And like, it's to go, wow. Like,
you know what Mitch did or like this club that
hasn't really acknowledged or doesn't celebrate a pride round or
for the men's competition. Maybe this is the moment where
they can I can sort of go, hey, you know,
they they they do think about me as a queer person.
(28:15):
They they do. Like and that's the you know, I
really I really challenged the notion around when people say, oh, keep,
keep politics away from, from sport. It's just Aussie rules.
Football is a unique in itself because it's from the
professional levels to the down to the bottom Aussie rules
(28:37):
that the league influences all those levels.
S1 (28:41):
And.
S2 (28:41):
They are embedded into our, you know, our culture on
all those levels. So.
S1 (28:46):
So did you get much of a response from the
league itself. Like what was the have HQ kind of
reached out and see a place for you as a,
I don't know, an ambassador in that diversity and inclusion
space or. Um.
S2 (29:01):
Yeah. So the particular people in in League HQ have
been amazing. Laura Kane, Tom Harley, um, in particular and
and Tara, Tara, Taryn Lee, um, what I represent, whether
it's how I look or even to a notion that,
(29:22):
you know, it sounds silly that I even say this.
I'm more palatable for people because I'm bisexual. I have
a straight stripe of a woman as a partner. Right,
a bit easier. Less. You know. So I can walk
into a door like the league office, and they. They
will listen to me. I won't be the angry queer man.
If you like. So remember, I want to meet people
(29:46):
where they're at, too. And so the league office have
been really good. And like, let's let's talk about this.
Let's not just be performative about this. And yeah, let's
have some representation and visibility around what you're doing and
celebrate that. But then let's actually look at behind the scenes.
How can we really, you know, change things in the
men's competition. And, you know, going back to what we've
(30:09):
just spoken about, this silence. It's like, you know, gone
are the days of, you know, the the, the public
statement from a football club saying, oh, we do this
and this, but we're going to handle this internal. This
is an internal thing. Um, please, we're not going to
comment any more about that. It's like, you know, it's
(30:32):
like that famous saying and we've all we've all been
told this, whether you're from your boss, in your workplace
or your coach, it's up on the walls. Most football clubs,
it's like the actions you walk past are the actions
you accept, right? And we buy into that. We love
that saying.
S1 (30:48):
Oh yeah.
S2 (30:49):
I've been told that a million times.
S1 (30:50):
And well, when it's in the gym and when it's
about how hard you fast you run, you know. Yeah.
S2 (30:55):
So when you, when you close up shop from maybe
the media or you close up shop from expressing what's
actually going on or calling out something or, you know,
saying that something is unacceptable and you say silence because you're. Well,
if we do silence, it'll blow over. And the, you know,
the quickness of the news cycle and, you know, there
(31:17):
won't be a reaction or whatever. Um, it's just creates
so much. It's just so much worse. And it is
going against that philosophy. When you say nothing, you're saying
what you are saying very loudly is that you accept
that behavior. And, you know, for example, you know, and
(31:41):
there's many it's just one of these example. But, you know,
when the, the, the, the crowd was booing Isaac. Isaac
Quaynor in that match.
S1 (31:49):
Um, so just for listeners, um, particularly in the northern
states who might not be aware, kind of homophobia has
reared its head in the AFL over the last couple
of years, with a handful of players suspended for offensive comments.
And the most recent high profile example kind of happened
shortly before Mitch came out, when Adelaide Crows star Isaac
Rankin was accused of making a homophobic remark, um, to
(32:13):
Collingwood player Isaac Quaynor, and the fallout was really dramatic.
Rankin was suspended effectively kind of ruled out for the season.
Pivotal player on the eve of a finals campaign. And
then the two teams played one another in a final
and Quaynor, the player who'd been abused, was booed all
night long by the Adelaide crowd. Um, I was curious
(32:36):
to know, like what that was like for you, watching,
watching that unfold, hearing those sounds.
S2 (32:41):
I remember watching that. And this happens in all other
sports as well. Cricket. Um, yeah. It happens. It's just
this is a like and I remember watching it and yeah,
I've heard it and I remember the booing with Adam Goodes.
It's like people will we're booing because we want him
to play poorly or like we don't like him as
(33:03):
a person or that, but like, come on, you know,
and like from the football club, from the Adelaide coach,
from the CEO, they just said nothing, you know. They'd
had an opportunity to be able to stand up and
proudly condemn this behaviour and say, this is not what
(33:24):
we're about. They didn't choose that to do that. This
is one of the things with the league office, the AFL.
They also had an opportunity to go and they've seen
it with the Adam Goodes. You know the booing over
the time with Adam Goodes that drive one of our
legends out of the game. There's an opportunity to stand
up and and say we don't accept this behaviour, this
(33:47):
anti-social behaviour, whether it's against or homophobic or as racist.
We just don't accept this because we are striving for
a safe, inclusive environment in the stands. I didn't say anything.
And what that what that allows that crowd that was
there that day and people watching what that says to
them is, well, we're accepting this. We're accepting this. So,
(34:11):
you know, if Adelaide came up against Collingwood, the two
teams that were in this game again in later in
that final series, there would have been more booing, that's
for sure.
S1 (34:20):
Because there probably will be next year when the two
teams meet, you know. Yeah. Nothing's more predictable. Yeah. Um,
just sort of on that, just going back a little bit.
So your early life in Ballarat for again for New
South Wales listeners, um, the rat always feels like the
coldest place in the state, but it's actually a kind
(34:41):
of lively regional centre. The Catholic Church is pretty prominent.
You went to Saint Pat's. We mentioned the alma mater
of everyone from Premier Steve Bracks to disgraced light Cardinal
George Pell. Um, and you were at this all boys
school kind of steeped in stoicism and strength. Uh, and
(35:03):
I was listening to a podcast the other day in
which you were sort of saying how, um, you know,
homophobic language was just like breathing. It was it was
a kind of daily occurrence. And you even sort of
ended up engaging in that yourself. And so that comes
back to Rankin, because I wanted to point out that
you reached out to him. Right. Because it's not really
(35:26):
so much even about his individual act like letting slip a,
you know, hurtful kind of hateful thing. But the the
wider reaction. What was that like? Like reaching out to
Isaac and like, what did you say to him? So.
Long winded question. Yeah. So I agree.
S2 (35:46):
And Isaac's been on the end of a lot of
racist comments. And you know, he understands like what it
feels to be on the other side. And I saw him, um,
do a press conference and I could see the emotion
in him, like, and I was just like, you know,
and I maintained the fact that I want to meet
people where they're at, too. So I was like, hey, I,
(36:07):
you know, whether he wrote back or not or whether
he even knew who I was or not, I reached
out to him and said, hey, man, like, I yeah, I,
I you're not a bad person. You're an amazing role
model for so many people. remember that. I just wanted
to let him know that it's like you're. And we
had a couple of text exchanges and it was amazing.
And he's been like, he's been amazing since, like, he's
(36:32):
done things outside of what's expected, I guess from the club. He's,
you know, and I love that. And you know what
people like Isaac and and I genuinely mean that it's
it's not their fault. It's like embedded in our, our psyche,
our culture. And you know, that's from a young age
(36:55):
at school. It's the movies we watched. I watched a
movie and a beloved movie in the early 2000, stepbrothers.
It was so funny. And I watched it about a
month ago, and I loved it. But like every scene,
there was a punchline around being gay.
S1 (37:13):
I watch my favorite, um, like ice hockey movie the
other day from when I was a kid, slapshot from
the 1970s 70s and the homophobia like is rank. I
don't remember it that way as a kid, but watching
it now, it's like it's not just age badly, like
it's aged horrendously.
S2 (37:30):
And this is the thing. Like it's it becomes this,
this everyday casualness, you know, for me at Saint Pat's like,
and this is not just, you know, at Saint Pat's
would be everywhere other schools. And the word gay would
be thrown around as a punchline by the hour. And
it's just and it becomes like this really like casual behaviour.
(37:55):
And it's like every day disrespects that. I've sort of
talked about is, you know, for most people, they may
not be offended by it, you know, but what it
does do it, it it paves way for more harmful behaviour.
It embeds this behaviour of casualness. And, you know, when
(38:15):
you may be out on the field or under pressure
or All this heightened sense of, you know, competitiveness. That's
when the more harmful behavior rears itself as a result
of that everyday respect. Disrespect.
S1 (38:31):
Absolutely. Yeah.
S2 (38:32):
And that's what I'm talking about. And, you know, when
we get really sensitive on, you know, calling out, you know,
a comment or a post or language, whether it's at
the pub, in the group chats or, you know, Mad
Monday celebrations, that's the impact that it'll it'll help create
(38:55):
is like you call out that and people will be like, well,
you're so soft. It's like it's not homophobic. It's. And
I get it. It's yeah, I want to stop people
having fun. But the, the casualness in the, the slightest
bit of homophobia for that person, for that young Mitch
that's sitting there at 17 years old and he's flown
(39:18):
to the other side of the country from Ballarat to Perth,
and he's now sitting at the pub with grown men,
and they're throwing around these casual jokes about being gay
for that hypersensitive young queer person that's exploring and trying
to answer these questions inside of himself. I'm going, well,
(39:39):
this is not safe. There's no way I'm sharing that.
I might be attracted to men, to these group, these people, because,
you know, it's just crazy.
S1 (39:50):
You did you did make a sort of attempt around
that time, didn't you? Tell us about that.
S2 (39:57):
So like, I, you know, I got drafted as a
17 year old year 11. I first got on a plane,
went to Perth.
S1 (40:03):
First time away from your twin brother brother for a
long extended period. So I had this like.
S2 (40:10):
This kind of coming of age force, coming of age moment. Yeah.
It's like and most people get it when they finish
school and they get a gap year or whatever. I
had this moment, so I had this kind of the
first time I was separated from my twin brother, and
I was like, now I feel more that more ability
to shape my own identity, and I start to build
(40:31):
confidence in that. And then, yeah, I got recruited to
a professional team and that brings confidence. And I was like, wow, maybe,
maybe this is maybe these questions that I'm asking myself, like,
am I gay? Am I, you know, do I like men?
And maybe I feel good enough to tell one of
my close mates, a teammate and I did and and, um, yeah,
(40:54):
it you know, and he's, he, he was one of
the first ones to reach out to me about this moment.
And I love him to death, but he, um. Yeah.
He didn't. We handled it. He handled it like a joke.
Like I said, hey, how do you know when you're gay? Like. And, um,
and he treated like a bit of a joke, and I.
(41:16):
and then I like saw that because remember, I'm hypersensitive
to reactions and I was like, okay, now let's, uh,
damage control. Let's turn that into a joke, too. So
then I participated in a joke and became homophobic. Uh,
I said some homophobic things and just joined into that
(41:37):
and then buried those questions and those thoughts deep down,
and never sort of let them out until post-football.
S1 (41:46):
Okay. So that would have been a tough thing to
be closeted or just not able to live your truth
in that environment because you're there playing footy for ten years.
It was a really large, formative chunk of your life. Um,
so that's tough. But what did you love about footy?
Like just unrelated to all of your recent news? Like
(42:08):
what did you love about the game? I love asking
athletes like what they enjoyed about the act itself, you know?
S2 (42:14):
And I smile as you ask that question and because
I like. Thanks for asking that because, I mean, the
stories I tell, it's like you'd be remiss. To think
that I love the game or like. Or didn't you know,
I speak about these moments. Not being able to show
up as myself and stuff. But I bloody love the
(42:36):
game and I. I'm so grateful. And I'm privileged in
the fact that I had so many amazing opportunities, whether it's,
you know. Through income, through, um, people that wanted to
know me and, you know, I got to travel the world.
And I did have fun in, in the change rooms
and the club and the club environments. I loved my teammates.
(42:58):
And you know, it's that's it's the hard one. Like,
you know I love the game so much and what
it represents to so many people. And you know the
week to week competitiveness the battle, the stories, the everything
about it, the training over summer, the want to get better,
(43:21):
you know, and doing that alongside your mates. I mean,
there's no better thing in the world and and there's
a reason why I decided to, you know, come out
publicly and, and to keep continually to talk about it
is because I love the game so much. If I
didn't care about the game, I, you know, I didn't
want my boys to grow up and play the game,
(43:43):
and I probably wouldn't. I'd probably leave it up to
someone else. But, you know, I, I love so one
of the things I feared most about exiting the game
when I finished up was the the gifts that been
able to put that jumper on and the gift it
(44:03):
gave you by having an impact on someone's life for
doing so little. I can remember I had this realization of,
you know, I went to a hospital, I went to,
you know, kids hospital and, you know, it was a
very sick child there. And I was there for like
a minute. They knew I was a player. I didn't
know who I was, but there was a player and
(44:24):
it's just like it was the best part of their day.
Like it was just amazing. They lit up and it
was just incredible. And I sat in the car in
the car park afterwards and I was like, wow. Like
when I finished, this is what I'm going to miss
the most. The, the, the gift to be able to
have an impact on someone's life. And I feared that.
And then I left the game and I realized that,
(44:47):
you know, we don't have to have this AFL jersey on.
We don't have to be a footballer to have an
impact on someone's life for doing so little. And, you know,
I had that realization. And, you know, from there I
just craved meeting people, meeting amazing people and people that
I could really, for the first time in my life,
(45:10):
like I loved my teammates. and the people that were
involved in my footy career. I wouldn't change anything in
the world and the environment they created, like even though
I couldn't at times show up as myself. But I
for the first time after footy, like at school, primary school,
at school, I didn't choose who my classmates were or
(45:33):
the students that rocked up at my school for footy
for ten years. The recruiters chose who were my teammates.
I didn't get a choice. And then after football, for
the first time in my life, I had the ability
to go choose my community, the people who I wanted
to be around, the jobs that I wanted to do.
And that's when I started to really crave connecting to
(45:56):
my identity. And over the years, post football, I started
to build confidence in who I was and who I
am and being proud in that. And people, you know,
loving and seeing who I really am and in all
my glory and imperfections and and that, including my sexuality
(46:16):
and the fact that I could explore these questions of
being attracted to men and and, um, not feeling ashamed
or embarrassed about that.
S1 (46:26):
I had heard you discuss before, like making the call to, um,
to come out. Uh, and you mentioned something I hadn't
kind of thought of. You were like you questioned at
some point throughout the years whether you should because you're
bisexual and straight, presenting rather than just gay. You questioned
(46:47):
whether you were a good enough football player to come
out as gay, whether the first should be like some
absolute superstar or, you know, established champion. Um, and you
had those sorts of doubts. What was it that sort
of convinced you to. Yeah, cross the line eventually.
S2 (47:06):
Yeah. For years I'd have conversations with people and, you know, um,
whether they're queer or not, they would say, hey, Mitch,
you really should, like, should really say something. I mean,
this could mean a lot to a lot of people and,
you know, could actually help a current player or someone
to actually feel strong enough to be able to, to
do this. And I was just like, ah, whether it's
(47:29):
in my own protection mechanisms or, you know, I would
consistently I still do it now. I'm like, there wasn't
much of a player or whatever I think I'm protecting
myself from. It's natural. But, you know, I, I truly,
I thought I'd so I reached out to the journalist
and when I was like, let's I want to tell
my story and come out. And he asked me the
(47:51):
first question he asked me was like, what's your biggest
fear with all this? And, you know, I said to him,
it was like the biggest fear was that people would
think I'm a fraud or an imposter. And like, I
still go through palpitations of that even now, Like, you know,
I have my own internalized biphobia. You know, there is
(48:14):
still a lot of biphobia within the queer community. And
and that so I'm like, well, you know, am I
worthy of this? You know, I've had a lot of
a lot of people within the queer community say, hey, Mitch,
we'd love your work, and we love your voice. And,
you know, keep doing it. But what we really need
is like, we love you, but what we really need
is a gay man to walk down the red carpet
(48:37):
at the Brownlow, holding his, you know, husband. And that's
what we really need. And, you know, I'm like, that's
the kind of.
S1 (48:46):
Yeah, sorry, I can't give that to you.
S2 (48:48):
Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, a lot of things
did hold me back, um, for years I thought about
it for years. And then it's just like, you know,
I did here on this little snippet. And that's when
I was in Italy with my partner, and I was like,
the snippet said, you know, it was around this 129
(49:09):
years and not one person has come out and publicly
stated their, you know, their queerness as a player, past
or present. And it's like one of the only sports
in the world. And I was just like, man, I've
I've had enough of this. I'm gonna I don't care.
I'm gonna I'm just gonna talk to us because it's
not true. And it's not just me. There's so many others.
(49:32):
And I'm gonna just I'm gonna just like, let's get
rid of this stat. And, um. Yeah, it was funny.
S1 (49:39):
I had still a stats driven footie player to the end.
S2 (49:43):
That was my true KPI that I'm most proud of. Yeah.
S1 (49:47):
Um, so I don't know. I guess I just want
to ask, what's next for you? Like, it feels like
you've had a big, big life already. But as we
mentioned off the top of the episode, you're 36 years old.
You're a bloody whippersnapper. At least compared to to me. Um.
What's next? You gotta settle in, I guess, to this
role of sort of unofficial Official spokesman, because people are
(50:08):
going to call on you for comment every time there's
some wisp like, oh, we might start a pride round,
let's ask Mitch about that. Somebody else was suspended for
a homophobic remark. Let's ask Mitch about that.
S2 (50:21):
It's it's a I don't take this question lightly. And
I it's one of the biggest questions that I'm still
reflecting on, still thinking about. I've asked a lot of
people for advice on this one. It's like, what next?
What what do I do? And I remember 11:11 a.m., 11:10.
The story came out on August the 28th. By 3 p.m.
(50:47):
I had a missed phone call, and I called this
by no number and I called a like a number
I didn't know. I called it back and it was
Sam Austin, the Governor general of Australia. I was like, okay, wow. Um,
she was amazing. She was so nice. And, um, It
was like a really cool, casual conversation. I was like,
(51:10):
she was like, do you have any questions for me?
I'm like, actually, I do have a question. I was like, Sam, hey,
what do I do now? Like what? What do I
what do you think I should do? What? Do you
have any advice for me? And she said to me,
one thing is like, don't stop. Don't stop now. You know,
(51:30):
keep speaking out. Keep speaking for those who can't. And,
you know, keep speaking for those who don't have the
support out there. And I mean that like, I'm so
lucky to have these amazing organizations to to have conversations
with you, Conrad, and like to have, you know, this
(51:51):
love and these messages. And yeah, I got a little
bit of hate, but, you know, I get so much love.
And my coming out experience has been so really positive
and uplifting. And there's been there's been personal like byproducts,
pardon the pun of the of this of. Yeah. I'll
walk a little bit taller. And I'm proud of who
(52:12):
I am and my queerness and and I know that
a lot of people don't have this support and they're
coming out. Experience is not positive. And, you know, I
just want to be able to share this love and
support that I have with those people. And one way
I can do that is to keep speaking out, keep talking,
keep sharing my story, and I will do that. And,
(52:34):
you know, yes, there's some things I want to get
my hands dirty with, especially within the men's AFL competition. And,
you know, the culture in the locker rooms around safety, inclusivity.
I want to change things, help make reform and, you know,
share my perspectives with players as a past player. And
I want to I want to do that. But I
also want to just keep being there for people who,
(52:57):
you know, that don't have anyone to look up to.
And now they do, especially within young, young boys who
are playing football. Um, I want to keep showing up
for them.
S1 (53:08):
Well, thanks for showing up. Thanks for speaking up. And
thanks for speaking with us today.
S2 (53:14):
Well, thanks for having me on, Conrad. Thank you.
S1 (53:19):
That was former AFL player Mitch Brown for the latest
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(53:43):
This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad
Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from
Cormac Lally. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick
is head of audio and Melissa Stevens is the editor
of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:34):
stories of the day. On today's episode, we talk to
Mitch Brown. The 36 year old grew up in country
Victoria in Ballarat, where he was a gifted athlete along
with his twin brother Nathan. The pair went to Saint
Patrick's College, a so-called football factory that's produced an array
of AFL stars, including everyone from Daniel Rioli to Danny
(00:54):
Frawley and then, of course, the Brown Boys. Nathan was
taken by Collingwood with pick ten in the 2006 draft,
and Mitch was selected not long after with pick 16
by the West Coast Eagles. He moved to Perth, made
a career for himself and although hit hard by injury,
missing two entire seasons, he played 94 games before retiring
almost a decade later. Mitch was also married to professional
(01:18):
netball player Shae Bolton Brown, with whom he has two
little boys, and he might have remained among the ranks
of largely anonymous footy players until a decision he made
in August when he came out as bisexual, becoming the
first senior AFL player, current or retired to do so
in the 129 year history of the competition. He's here
(01:39):
today in the studio to talk about his life before
and after that big reveal and what comes next. Welcome, Mitch.
S2 (01:46):
Thanks, Conrad. Well, it's it's like hearing you speak about
my life. It's still surreal. Um, you know, it's been
a big couple of months it's been since, you know,
the original interview where I did decide to announce to Australia,
(02:07):
the world, maybe. Yeah. That you know about my sexuality
to shine a spotlight on on, you know, safety and
inclusivity in sport and particularly for me, men's AFL competition. Um, yeah. Uh,
it's crazy. And I've been trying to ride the wave. And,
you know, part of it's a big thing for for
(02:29):
my life. You're like, if I wasn't a footballer, if
I didn't come out publicly or people weren't interested in it,
it coming out internally, even to my family, to my brother,
it's still a big thing for my own life as
as just a human. So like, even that in itself
is huge for me. And I'm dealing with all those emotions, um,
(02:50):
the different types of nuances with relationships, people with, you know,
that didn't know or have known me for a long time.
Like my twin brother. Yeah. Um, and then you got this.
This public side of it, and. Yeah, I chose to
to come out publicly, um, for a reason, and we
can touch on that. But, you know, it's been a big,
(03:11):
yeah phase, you know, post interview. And not many people
know that I'm working full time as well.
S1 (03:17):
Yeah. Okay.
S2 (03:18):
Normal programming.
S1 (03:19):
Are you up to.
S2 (03:19):
I got I got two kids. Um, yeah. I work
in a consulting job, and, um, they've been amazing to.
To balance. I guess it's not this responsibility. No one
has ever put an obligation onto me to. To continue
to share my story or continue to advocate for the
(03:40):
queer community or more specifically, safety inclusivity within men's sports
or these hyper hyper masculine environments. But in saying this, like,
I feel like I have this unique opportunity. That's a good.
S1 (03:53):
Way to look at it, an opportunity rather than a
responsibility or an obligation.
S2 (03:57):
Yeah. At this opportunity. Because right now I am the
only public bisexual, gay, gay man or current former footballer
that you know is speaking out that has had that
perspective of playing in the AFL men's competition as a professional.
(04:18):
So with that, I don't know whether, you know, I
remember Gill McLaughlin described the former CEO of the AFL,
described it as a burden for this person. Um, you know,
whether that's a burden for me or a gift to
be able to continue to share my story or to talk.
I feel that whilst people are listening, in particular people
(04:42):
that may not have listened before, um, to a queer
man or someone in the queer community, that I do
have this responsibility and obligation as a custodian, and I
do a lot of work in the consulting world with
First Nations people. And, and, um, I really connect with this,
this word or this, this, um, this notion around custodianship.
(05:05):
And for me right now, my obligation to this space
and the space of providing a safe and inclusive space
for the next person is to make it a little
bit better for them. And and that's what custodianship is
all about. And that's, you know, that's the, the mentality,
I guess, you know, in this next little phase, um,
(05:28):
that I'm going to adopt and, and really believe and
buy into.
S1 (05:32):
Blunt question. Big question may be hard to answer. Question
why do you think you're the first. Like why do
you think it took more than a century for any
professional AFL player, um, to share this kind of news
with the world?
S2 (05:49):
It's a great question, Conrad, and like, I have had
time to think about this and, Mind you, like when
when I was playing the conversation around who would be
the first person or, you know, in the locker rooms,
like who is it? Who is actually is that person
and which is quite toxic in itself. But like, what
would the reaction be and why? We would talk about
(06:11):
it quite often and it would come up in the
media time and time and you'd talk about it. So
I have had some time to think about this. And
Australian rules football is quite unique in itself. It's, you know,
it's it's played in different parts of the world but
is uniquely Australian and it is, if you like, in
its own silo and it's quite protected. And I think
(06:36):
that if you like it or not, the Aussie Rules
game is, is embedded into our, you know, the Australian
psyche and culture. And, you know, it's not just this
sporting thing, it sits in its own place in our
society and it has so much influence over a lot
of people. And because for so long, what is it
(07:00):
like 100 and I mean 120 years since the, you know,
it was only a solely a men's competition professionally and
then ten seasons ago. That's rough numbers, but it would
be around that. It's only been a men's competition and
it's been that sacred. You know, you know that that
representation of the Australian man. And I think it's it's
(07:22):
built this environment where if you like it or not,
it's just it's not safe to be able to step
outside of that brand, that brand of what it means
to be an Australian man and the straightness in that
and the lack of diversity because it's not played around
the world, um, can contribute to that. And, you know,
(07:47):
and for a player, like, it's one thing to feel
safe and supported by your teammates and the club environment.
But then like you remember, it's like average crowd. So
like 30,000 plus every weekend. And then the supporter base
is a you know, especially if you look at the
(08:09):
ratios of our population in Australia, like there's a lot
of people out there and you can hear them and
hear what they say. And, you know, it's it's almost
to a point, like your career is so short, it's
not worth it to, to to come out.
S1 (08:24):
And yeah.
S2 (08:25):
You know, I believe that like I believe that. And
that was the the general consensus consensus around the playing
group when we talk about it many years ago about
this player is like, well, why would you come out?
Why would you take on this burden that could potentially
disrupt your career, your performance.
S1 (08:42):
Your team.
S2 (08:43):
Your team, your ability to make income? Why do that
when you can just like play straight in a straight game,
and then afterwards right off into the sunset and do
what you want in your community and come out then. Yeah. Um,
whether it's public or not.
S1 (09:00):
I want to go to another question. It's one that
comes up every single time someone comes out in sport
these days. It's a question I heard when young soccer
player Josh Cavallo came out, when basketball player Isaac Humphries
came out. There's two word question. Do you know what
the question is? Who cares?
S2 (09:19):
And it's weird that I didn't get that because I.
S1 (09:24):
Know that one right. You hear that one? We hear
it again and again and again. I think it's I
think it's well-meaning from people that some from some people
they're wanting to show, like, I don't consider you being
gay a big deal. So I'm gonna say, oh, who cares?
You know, it's.
S2 (09:41):
Interesting, and I'd love to talk to, uh, the person
who studies human psyche. I'm sure there's a name for that. Um,
but I don't know, like, there is like. And this
is not just around in the the realm of sexuality
and homophobia and, um, the queer community is like a
(10:03):
lot of people just aren't equipped enough to be able
to know what to say. You know, I remember when
one of my good friends, um, growing up, his sister
was tragically killed in a car accident, and I was
there when he was told over the phone, I just
didn't know what to say to him. Um, so I
probably just blab it out if anything. And there's an
(10:24):
element of that. It's like, well, wow, Mitch, you've come out.
And this is so abnormal for the Australian rules football
in the men's competition. I don't know how to deal
with that. Or in your friendship groups when you don't
have anyone queer or gay or bi. And that happens.
It's almost like, you know, there's some silence from my
mates for, for a couple of weeks because I didn't
(10:46):
know what to say to me.
S1 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (10:47):
Um, But the notion around who cares? I think there's
a couple of parts of it. It's like, well, I
kind of laugh at it because you care enough to
to look at the the media or the article and
then comment. So yeah. You care? Yeah. Um, but then
there's a and I've seen this and this is my
(11:08):
observation and, and you know, my opinion around this is
like we in Australia, especially men, if someone stands up
steps outside the box and we've seen it not just
in the queer community, but, you know, for people in
diverse demographics and, you know, you know, Adam Goodes, a
number of years ago, if someone steps out and calls
(11:31):
something out or makes people feel uncomfortable, we're like, we're
kind of okay and kind enough to go, oh, well done, mate.
Good job. We'll take you for a, for a for
a day or a few Instagram posts, a few interviews.
But if you keep continuing to talk about this and
keep showing it, keep showing up on my feed or
(11:55):
and keep talking, then you're making me feel a little
bit uncomfortable. Can you get get back inside your box?
And you know, whether it's the comment of who cares?
They're trying to say that, you know, who cares? Get
back inside your box like we don't want to talk about.
We don't want to hear this. It's because it's uncomfortable
and it's confronting. Mhm. Um, and you know, that's you
(12:17):
know that's one of the things that I mean it's
trailblazing like people have mentioned that and I admire so
many of the AFL players in true trailblazers of, of
trying to, you know, bring up women's AFL and, and
the things that they have to go through and they
(12:39):
keep turning up and they're my role models in this.
And you know, I, I'm committed to not going back
inside my box because I know that a lot of
people need to, you know, have have this sense of
awkwardness and be confronted. And if, you know, we're going
to ever move the dial in terms of having queer
representation in these hyper masculine environments, in sport in particular,
(13:03):
then it's going to make for a lot of uncomfortable conversations,
challenging ones. And, and in, you know, Conrad, like, I
always take a beat and ground myself and remind myself that,
you know, I need to have I need to have the,
(13:24):
the attitude that even within myself to meet people where
they're at and not expect them to understand my sexuality
or understand bisexuality, or I want to be able to
sit down and go, hey, like what? What makes it
confronting for you and what makes it really hard for
you to listen to me, you know, say the words
(13:45):
I'm bisexual or I'm attracted to men. And let's talk
about that because, you know, if they're the ones that
we're trying to, you know, if they're blocking the way
to make a safer place. You know, I've got two
young boys, Conrad. And if I want them to grow
up in a safe environment where they're at school or
in their sporting club, if we're going to do that,
like we these people that are that are blocking that,
(14:09):
I want to sit down and talk to them about
that and try and get them a little bit closer
to understanding, um, that sense of acceptance and, and, and
safety for all beauty.
S1 (14:21):
Here's what, um, Isaac Humphries said, actually, when I mentioned
that to him, because a few people were saying it
on radio at the time, he was really well spoken
on it. It was like the response is, a lot
of people care. You may not, but a lot of people,
millions of people who don't have a voice or representation,
care a lot. Just because homophobia is not in your
immediate line of thinking doesn't mean it's not affecting a
(14:42):
lot of people. So who cares? The little kid down
the street who really loves basketball and feels confused and
conflicted and not welcome because of who he is. That's
who cares. Or someone who's battling every day with thoughts
about suicide and sees my video and has a tiny
bit of hope. That's who cares. It's me who had
no example to look up to as a gay man
in basketball. I care. I've had hundreds of messages from
(15:05):
people all around the world. I've had people stop me
on the side of the street or on the court
after games. You might think gay is being gay is normalized,
but there's still so much backwards thinking in the world.
We are not there yet. That's the brutal reality. It
baffles me when people say, who cares? Who doesn't care?
S2 (15:23):
Wow.
S1 (15:24):
Uh, he says it all.
S2 (15:26):
That's that's amazing. I mean, I got little goosebumps hearing that.
S1 (15:30):
Can I ask what the response was like for you?
The the good and the bad. And maybe, maybe we
will start with the good. Like. And we could start
with individuals like people that, you know, and then maybe
also Strangers. Like, what was it like? Did you just
that podcast happened and then is your phone just kind
(15:51):
of lighting up for a fortnight afterwards or.
S2 (15:54):
It's still lights up? Yeah. So it went out. Um,
it was around about ended up being about 11:10 on
that Wednesday morning, 28th of August. And um, you know what?
You know who the first person was to message me.
(16:15):
And so this person and is interesting to hear Isaac
Humphries and to to talk about he had no role models,
queer role models in basketball to follow. And, you know,
for me, in my footy career, I had no one,
no other player. You know, that's why I was so
(16:35):
important for the AFL players to enter the competition, because
they then became my role models, queer footballers in the
professional that I could relate to. I didn't have a
role model, and I remember halfway through my career, I
think there was like this, um, workshop that we had
and this picture came up on in the lecture theatre
(16:57):
and it was Daniel Kowalski, the the Olympic swimmer. Yep. Um,
and I grew up loving the Olympics, and I loved
Daniel Kowalski and Kieren Perkins and how they used to
verse each other in the 1500. And it was his
story about his coming out story. And I know it
wasn't initially positive for him. He was sort of forced out. Um,
(17:19):
but then he and he stood there and in this
photo was like, you know, I'm Daniel Kowalski out and
proud and and I just had this smile on his
face and I, like, sat there in that lecture theatre.
I didn't know him at the time. And I saw
that picture and I was like, I just felt something.
I could I could see the joy. I just was like, oh, man.
(17:41):
Like it's, it's it's there in the future or it's,
it's that's and that was many years ago and I
was fortunate enough to cross paths with, with Daniel, um,
on a professional level with some, you know, some sporting stuff.
He's now the works for the AOC. And the the
(18:04):
interview went out at 11, 11:10, and I funny enough,
I got a LinkedIn message. That was the first message
I got. And it was from Daniel Kowalski.
S1 (18:14):
Wow.
S2 (18:15):
And it was like he just. Yeah. He didn't have
the words to describe what it meant. And then he
followed up with another beautiful message and and then I
for the first time, I let him know that he
was my role model those many years ago. And it
was a special moment between myself and Daniel in those
(18:35):
text message exchanges on LinkedIn. Um, so there was some
really special messages. There was these messages of, um, I mean,
more celebrational like celebratory and, um, happiness and joy, which
is really fantastic because I was quite nervous about self-conscious
about the reaction. Um, and then these messages of which
(19:01):
became the most important. And, um, you know, I can
really relate to what you read out with, you know,
Isaac said about the people in the street and the
people and the little boy that's sitting there and that's
confused about his sexuality, but doesn't have anyone to talk
to or relate to. You know, those messages start to
come through. And this is where the whole argument of
(19:25):
the burden or the gift, and this is where it
truly becomes a gift, because a lot of people, a
lot of young people, a lot of middle aged men
that are in straight marriages, relationships Hips felt safe enough
to confide in me and message me, their story and
(19:46):
their experiences. And I can tell you there are thousands
of those messages. Yeah, tens of thousands of messages. And,
you know, as as these came through, I was just like, wow.
I said to my partner, Laura was like, I like,
how can you not read something like this when someone
can not tell anyone else in the world, not even
(20:07):
their partner, not even their parents, their mum and dad,
their best mates, they felt safe enough to share this
with me. Like, how can I not take this on?
And you know, those messages came through and I made
a commitment to write back and respond and take it on. And,
you know, it took a toll. I want to be honest,
(20:30):
it took a toll, but it just meant so much
to me. And I remember there was this kid that
in my local cafe that I would go down every
morning and get a coffee and I'll chat to him and.
And then a couple of days after I was sitting down,
he comes out of the other side of the the
(20:50):
bench of the coffee machine, and he comes to me
and he looks at me and there's tears in his
eyes and he goes, hey, Mitch, I. And he's crying.
And he goes, I just want to say thank you. I'm.
I'm a gay man. And you don't know how much
this means to me. And like his emotion, he was shaking.
(21:15):
And I could tell what this meant. And that was
when the enormity of, like, what I had done really
hit home. And I've always maintained the fact that, you know,
I didn't do this for me. And I was quite
happily out within my own little friendship group and community, um,
(21:37):
straight representing and I've got a woman as a partner.
You know, I didn't have to do this, but I
thought I wanted to shine a spotlight on, you know,
homophobia in sport. More, more importantly, you know, whether you're
queer or not, your ability as a man was a
(21:58):
person in general to be able to show up as
you are and not what people think you should be. And,
you know, I, you know, so many people just in
their work environments and their sporting teams and their their
group chats and their family dinners that feel that they
can't be themselves. And being trapped in that. And that's
(22:23):
what ultimately is what I wanted to, you know, try
and move the dial on, um, which is um, it's
been crazy. And, you know, of course, like, I made
a point, Conrad, not to to really shine a light
on the homophobia and the hate in terms of the reaction. Yeah, yeah.
(22:44):
And because I like I'm really I wanted to maintain that. Hey,
you know, this is a this is a positive thing.
It's a positive experience. I want to be strength based
with my language. I want to make it, you know,
I want to make a space and a platform to go, well, hey,
we are ready to be able to have more queer players.
We are, you know, there is so much progress. But
(23:06):
it got to a point where I'm like, hang on. No, no,
I think there is a point where I need to
also mention that we still have a bit a bit
of work to do. Yeah. And you know, there's still
a lot of hate and still a lot of homophobia
that has come my way. And and, you know, I
didn't want to just be all, you know, sunshine and
(23:29):
rainbows and lollipops because people, you know, we don't like
to read the bad things and and we like to
think that. Oh, Mitch, this is amazing. Have you copped
any hate? And I'm like, yeah, I have. And people
be like, what you have have you like. Yeah a lot. Um,
especially when you start to really challenge the norms and the,
(23:52):
the male psyche around something so sacred for us here
in Australia as our Aussie Rules football and our locker
room and our sitting there at the pub. And you know,
when you start to really rock that people get, people
don't like it. Yep. And they want to they want
to put you back in that box. And yeah, it's like, hey,
(24:13):
you know, the amount of comments that are like, hey Mitch,
we love what you did, but this is a bit
too far, you know, attacking, attacking our mad Monday, attacking
our blah, blah, blah.
S1 (24:30):
Aside from kind of the more vile attacks and that
kind of direct homophobic fallout that you would imagine was
going to come your way. I want to address one element,
and that's the silence. So Isaac talked about this when
he came out. It was like, oh, I could handle
the the homophobic stuff. I knew that was going to
(24:51):
come my way. What really kind of hurt were the
people or the places that he didn't hear from, like
the American college that he had played for and loved
and gave his heart and soul for? He comes out
and they there's just not a word from the organization
or from any of his teammates. Um, and I feel
(25:14):
like that's something that you've brought up in the media
is like the, the silence from different places. So maybe
you could talk to us just about that. Yeah. The
way that that lack of affirmations can, can hurt.
S2 (25:27):
Yeah. It's, um. It did. Yeah. I think so much
for Isaacs. It's just so relatable, you know? The silence
was so loud, especially those first, you know, when. And
this goes for for anyone that's, you know, a bit
apprehensive about something they've done or the environment they're walking into.
(25:49):
They're so hyper sensitive. And you know, I was those
weeks post that interview, I was really hyper sensitive to
people's reactions, like, how are they going to react? What's
my brother going to say? What's my um, what's the
West Coast Eagles? You know, the team that I played
for all my career going to say and waiting for that.
And so hyper sensitive. And what you're also hypersensitive to
(26:11):
is the silence. And you know, they haven't said anything.
What's I mean, are they offended. Are they were they
homophobic like. And for me, you know, and this is
where like you just get so frustrated because you know,
you want to it does hurt. And you and you
and I've always maintained this is not about me. Like.
(26:36):
And people will go, well, me, me, me like you.
You're attention seeking or not. And you know, what people
need to understand is when a big, influential organization like
a football club or you know, your school or whatever,
acknowledge or acknowledge, not even they didn't have to say
(26:59):
my name or anything or Isaac's name, they acknowledge that, hey,
we we understand this, the, the, this specific significance of
what Mitch did. And we're going to use that to
acknowledge that we are an inclusive or we are striving
(27:20):
for safety, inclusivity in our community and our fans and our,
you know, acknowledging them. And you know what that means.
You know, some of those clubs that, you know, had like,
a lot of, a lot of people contact me and say, ah, sorry, Mitch.
My club didn't at least acknowledge anything. And as a
(27:40):
queer supporter of that club, you know, I'm you know
what that makes me feel like? It makes me feel
like absolute crap. And, you know, that's the point. And.
S1 (27:50):
You know, I hadn't heard it expressed that way. That's really. Yeah. Yeah.
Total sense.
S2 (27:54):
It's for them. And like, it's to go, wow. Like,
you know what Mitch did or like this club that
hasn't really acknowledged or doesn't celebrate a pride round or
for the men's competition. Maybe this is the moment where
they can I can sort of go, hey, you know,
they they they do think about me as a queer person.
(28:15):
They they do. Like and that's the you know, I
really I really challenged the notion around when people say, oh, keep,
keep politics away from, from sport. It's just Aussie rules.
Football is a unique in itself because it's from the
professional levels to the down to the bottom Aussie rules
(28:37):
that the league influences all those levels.
S1 (28:41):
And.
S2 (28:41):
They are embedded into our, you know, our culture on
all those levels. So.
S1 (28:46):
So did you get much of a response from the
league itself. Like what was the have HQ kind of
reached out and see a place for you as a,
I don't know, an ambassador in that diversity and inclusion
space or. Um.
S2 (29:01):
Yeah. So the particular people in in League HQ have
been amazing. Laura Kane, Tom Harley, um, in particular and
and Tara, Tara, Taryn Lee, um, what I represent, whether
it's how I look or even to a notion that,
(29:22):
you know, it sounds silly that I even say this.
I'm more palatable for people because I'm bisexual. I have
a straight stripe of a woman as a partner. Right,
a bit easier. Less. You know. So I can walk
into a door like the league office, and they. They
will listen to me. I won't be the angry queer man.
If you like. So remember, I want to meet people
(29:46):
where they're at, too. And so the league office have
been really good. And like, let's let's talk about this.
Let's not just be performative about this. And yeah, let's
have some representation and visibility around what you're doing and
celebrate that. But then let's actually look at behind the scenes.
How can we really, you know, change things in the
men's competition. And, you know, going back to what we've
(30:09):
just spoken about, this silence. It's like, you know, gone
are the days of, you know, the the, the public
statement from a football club saying, oh, we do this
and this, but we're going to handle this internal. This
is an internal thing. Um, please, we're not going to
comment any more about that. It's like, you know, it's
(30:32):
like that famous saying and we've all we've all been
told this, whether you're from your boss, in your workplace
or your coach, it's up on the walls. Most football clubs,
it's like the actions you walk past are the actions
you accept, right? And we buy into that. We love
that saying.
S1 (30:48):
Oh yeah.
S2 (30:49):
I've been told that a million times.
S1 (30:50):
And well, when it's in the gym and when it's
about how hard you fast you run, you know. Yeah.
S2 (30:55):
So when you, when you close up shop from maybe
the media or you close up shop from expressing what's
actually going on or calling out something or, you know,
saying that something is unacceptable and you say silence because you're. Well,
if we do silence, it'll blow over. And the, you know,
the quickness of the news cycle and, you know, there
(31:17):
won't be a reaction or whatever. Um, it's just creates
so much. It's just so much worse. And it is
going against that philosophy. When you say nothing, you're saying
what you are saying very loudly is that you accept
that behavior. And, you know, for example, you know, and
(31:41):
there's many it's just one of these example. But, you know,
when the, the, the, the crowd was booing Isaac. Isaac
Quaynor in that match.
S1 (31:49):
Um, so just for listeners, um, particularly in the northern
states who might not be aware, kind of homophobia has
reared its head in the AFL over the last couple
of years, with a handful of players suspended for offensive comments.
And the most recent high profile example kind of happened
shortly before Mitch came out, when Adelaide Crows star Isaac
Rankin was accused of making a homophobic remark, um, to
(32:13):
Collingwood player Isaac Quaynor, and the fallout was really dramatic.
Rankin was suspended effectively kind of ruled out for the season.
Pivotal player on the eve of a finals campaign. And
then the two teams played one another in a final
and Quaynor, the player who'd been abused, was booed all
night long by the Adelaide crowd. Um, I was curious
(32:36):
to know, like what that was like for you, watching,
watching that unfold, hearing those sounds.
S2 (32:41):
I remember watching that. And this happens in all other
sports as well. Cricket. Um, yeah. It happens. It's just
this is a like and I remember watching it and yeah,
I've heard it and I remember the booing with Adam Goodes.
It's like people will we're booing because we want him
to play poorly or like we don't like him as
(33:03):
a person or that, but like, come on, you know,
and like from the football club, from the Adelaide coach,
from the CEO, they just said nothing, you know. They'd
had an opportunity to be able to stand up and
proudly condemn this behaviour and say, this is not what
(33:24):
we're about. They didn't choose that to do that. This
is one of the things with the league office, the AFL.
They also had an opportunity to go and they've seen
it with the Adam Goodes. You know the booing over
the time with Adam Goodes that drive one of our
legends out of the game. There's an opportunity to stand
up and and say we don't accept this behaviour, this
(33:47):
anti-social behaviour, whether it's against or homophobic or as racist.
We just don't accept this because we are striving for
a safe, inclusive environment in the stands. I didn't say anything.
And what that what that allows that crowd that was
there that day and people watching what that says to
them is, well, we're accepting this. We're accepting this. So,
(34:11):
you know, if Adelaide came up against Collingwood, the two
teams that were in this game again in later in
that final series, there would have been more booing, that's
for sure.
S1 (34:20):
Because there probably will be next year when the two
teams meet, you know. Yeah. Nothing's more predictable. Yeah. Um,
just sort of on that, just going back a little bit.
So your early life in Ballarat for again for New
South Wales listeners, um, the rat always feels like the
coldest place in the state, but it's actually a kind
(34:41):
of lively regional centre. The Catholic Church is pretty prominent.
You went to Saint Pat's. We mentioned the alma mater
of everyone from Premier Steve Bracks to disgraced light Cardinal
George Pell. Um, and you were at this all boys
school kind of steeped in stoicism and strength. Uh, and
(35:03):
I was listening to a podcast the other day in
which you were sort of saying how, um, you know,
homophobic language was just like breathing. It was it was
a kind of daily occurrence. And you even sort of
ended up engaging in that yourself. And so that comes
back to Rankin, because I wanted to point out that
you reached out to him. Right. Because it's not really
(35:26):
so much even about his individual act like letting slip a,
you know, hurtful kind of hateful thing. But the the
wider reaction. What was that like? Like reaching out to
Isaac and like, what did you say to him? So.
Long winded question. Yeah. So I agree.
S2 (35:46):
And Isaac's been on the end of a lot of
racist comments. And you know, he understands like what it
feels to be on the other side. And I saw him, um,
do a press conference and I could see the emotion
in him, like, and I was just like, you know,
and I maintained the fact that I want to meet
people where they're at, too. So I was like, hey, I,
(36:07):
you know, whether he wrote back or not or whether
he even knew who I was or not, I reached
out to him and said, hey, man, like, I yeah, I,
I you're not a bad person. You're an amazing role
model for so many people. remember that. I just wanted
to let him know that it's like you're. And we
had a couple of text exchanges and it was amazing.
And he's been like, he's been amazing since, like, he's
(36:32):
done things outside of what's expected, I guess from the club. He's,
you know, and I love that. And you know what
people like Isaac and and I genuinely mean that it's
it's not their fault. It's like embedded in our, our psyche,
our culture. And you know, that's from a young age
(36:55):
at school. It's the movies we watched. I watched a
movie and a beloved movie in the early 2000, stepbrothers.
It was so funny. And I watched it about a
month ago, and I loved it. But like every scene,
there was a punchline around being gay.
S1 (37:13):
I watch my favorite, um, like ice hockey movie the
other day from when I was a kid, slapshot from
the 1970s 70s and the homophobia like is rank. I
don't remember it that way as a kid, but watching
it now, it's like it's not just age badly, like
it's aged horrendously.
S2 (37:30):
And this is the thing. Like it's it becomes this,
this everyday casualness, you know, for me at Saint Pat's like,
and this is not just, you know, at Saint Pat's
would be everywhere other schools. And the word gay would
be thrown around as a punchline by the hour. And
it's just and it becomes like this really like casual behaviour.
(37:55):
And it's like every day disrespects that. I've sort of
talked about is, you know, for most people, they may
not be offended by it, you know, but what it
does do it, it it paves way for more harmful behaviour.
It embeds this behaviour of casualness. And, you know, when
(38:15):
you may be out on the field or under pressure
or All this heightened sense of, you know, competitiveness. That's
when the more harmful behavior rears itself as a result
of that everyday respect. Disrespect.
S1 (38:31):
Absolutely. Yeah.
S2 (38:32):
And that's what I'm talking about. And, you know, when
we get really sensitive on, you know, calling out, you know,
a comment or a post or language, whether it's at
the pub, in the group chats or, you know, Mad
Monday celebrations, that's the impact that it'll it'll help create
(38:55):
is like you call out that and people will be like, well,
you're so soft. It's like it's not homophobic. It's. And
I get it. It's yeah, I want to stop people
having fun. But the, the casualness in the, the slightest
bit of homophobia for that person, for that young Mitch
that's sitting there at 17 years old and he's flown
(39:18):
to the other side of the country from Ballarat to Perth,
and he's now sitting at the pub with grown men,
and they're throwing around these casual jokes about being gay
for that hypersensitive young queer person that's exploring and trying
to answer these questions inside of himself. I'm going, well,
(39:39):
this is not safe. There's no way I'm sharing that.
I might be attracted to men, to these group, these people, because,
you know, it's just crazy.
S1 (39:50):
You did you did make a sort of attempt around
that time, didn't you? Tell us about that.
S2 (39:57):
So like, I, you know, I got drafted as a
17 year old year 11. I first got on a plane,
went to Perth.
S1 (40:03):
First time away from your twin brother brother for a
long extended period. So I had this like.
S2 (40:10):
This kind of coming of age force, coming of age moment. Yeah.
It's like and most people get it when they finish
school and they get a gap year or whatever. I
had this moment, so I had this kind of the
first time I was separated from my twin brother, and
I was like, now I feel more that more ability
to shape my own identity, and I start to build
(40:31):
confidence in that. And then, yeah, I got recruited to
a professional team and that brings confidence. And I was like, wow, maybe,
maybe this is maybe these questions that I'm asking myself, like,
am I gay? Am I, you know, do I like men?
And maybe I feel good enough to tell one of
my close mates, a teammate and I did and and, um, yeah,
(40:54):
it you know, and he's, he, he was one of
the first ones to reach out to me about this moment.
And I love him to death, but he, um. Yeah.
He didn't. We handled it. He handled it like a joke.
Like I said, hey, how do you know when you're gay? Like. And, um,
and he treated like a bit of a joke, and I.
(41:16):
and then I like saw that because remember, I'm hypersensitive
to reactions and I was like, okay, now let's, uh,
damage control. Let's turn that into a joke, too. So
then I participated in a joke and became homophobic. Uh,
I said some homophobic things and just joined into that
(41:37):
and then buried those questions and those thoughts deep down,
and never sort of let them out until post-football.
S1 (41:46):
Okay. So that would have been a tough thing to
be closeted or just not able to live your truth
in that environment because you're there playing footy for ten years.
It was a really large, formative chunk of your life. Um,
so that's tough. But what did you love about footy?
Like just unrelated to all of your recent news? Like
(42:08):
what did you love about the game? I love asking
athletes like what they enjoyed about the act itself, you know?
S2 (42:14):
And I smile as you ask that question and because
I like. Thanks for asking that because, I mean, the
stories I tell, it's like you'd be remiss. To think
that I love the game or like. Or didn't you know,
I speak about these moments. Not being able to show
up as myself and stuff. But I bloody love the
(42:36):
game and I. I'm so grateful. And I'm privileged in
the fact that I had so many amazing opportunities, whether it's,
you know. Through income, through, um, people that wanted to
know me and, you know, I got to travel the world.
And I did have fun in, in the change rooms
and the club and the club environments. I loved my teammates.
(42:58):
And you know, it's that's it's the hard one. Like,
you know I love the game so much and what
it represents to so many people. And you know the
week to week competitiveness the battle, the stories, the everything
about it, the training over summer, the want to get better,
(43:21):
you know, and doing that alongside your mates. I mean,
there's no better thing in the world and and there's
a reason why I decided to, you know, come out
publicly and, and to keep continually to talk about it
is because I love the game so much. If I
didn't care about the game, I, you know, I didn't
want my boys to grow up and play the game,
(43:43):
and I probably wouldn't. I'd probably leave it up to
someone else. But, you know, I, I love so one
of the things I feared most about exiting the game
when I finished up was the the gifts that been
able to put that jumper on and the gift it
(44:03):
gave you by having an impact on someone's life for
doing so little. I can remember I had this realization of,
you know, I went to a hospital, I went to,
you know, kids hospital and, you know, it was a
very sick child there. And I was there for like
a minute. They knew I was a player. I didn't
know who I was, but there was a player and
(44:24):
it's just like it was the best part of their day.
Like it was just amazing. They lit up and it
was just incredible. And I sat in the car in
the car park afterwards and I was like, wow. Like
when I finished, this is what I'm going to miss
the most. The, the, the gift to be able to
have an impact on someone's life. And I feared that.
And then I left the game and I realized that,
(44:47):
you know, we don't have to have this AFL jersey on.
We don't have to be a footballer to have an
impact on someone's life for doing so little. And, you know,
I had that realization. And, you know, from there I
just craved meeting people, meeting amazing people and people that
I could really, for the first time in my life,
(45:10):
like I loved my teammates. and the people that were
involved in my footy career. I wouldn't change anything in
the world and the environment they created, like even though
I couldn't at times show up as myself. But I
for the first time after footy, like at school, primary school,
at school, I didn't choose who my classmates were or
(45:33):
the students that rocked up at my school for footy
for ten years. The recruiters chose who were my teammates.
I didn't get a choice. And then after football, for
the first time in my life, I had the ability
to go choose my community, the people who I wanted
to be around, the jobs that I wanted to do.
And that's when I started to really crave connecting to
(45:56):
my identity. And over the years, post football, I started
to build confidence in who I was and who I
am and being proud in that. And people, you know,
loving and seeing who I really am and in all
my glory and imperfections and and that, including my sexuality
(46:16):
and the fact that I could explore these questions of
being attracted to men and and, um, not feeling ashamed
or embarrassed about that.
S1 (46:26):
I had heard you discuss before, like making the call to, um,
to come out. Uh, and you mentioned something I hadn't
kind of thought of. You were like you questioned at
some point throughout the years whether you should because you're
bisexual and straight, presenting rather than just gay. You questioned
(46:47):
whether you were a good enough football player to come
out as gay, whether the first should be like some
absolute superstar or, you know, established champion. Um, and you
had those sorts of doubts. What was it that sort
of convinced you to. Yeah, cross the line eventually.
S2 (47:06):
Yeah. For years I'd have conversations with people and, you know, um,
whether they're queer or not, they would say, hey, Mitch,
you really should, like, should really say something. I mean,
this could mean a lot to a lot of people and,
you know, could actually help a current player or someone
to actually feel strong enough to be able to, to
do this. And I was just like, ah, whether it's
(47:29):
in my own protection mechanisms or, you know, I would
consistently I still do it now. I'm like, there wasn't
much of a player or whatever I think I'm protecting
myself from. It's natural. But, you know, I, I truly,
I thought I'd so I reached out to the journalist
and when I was like, let's I want to tell
my story and come out. And he asked me the
(47:51):
first question he asked me was like, what's your biggest
fear with all this? And, you know, I said to him,
it was like the biggest fear was that people would
think I'm a fraud or an imposter. And like, I
still go through palpitations of that even now, Like, you know,
I have my own internalized biphobia. You know, there is
(48:14):
still a lot of biphobia within the queer community. And
and that so I'm like, well, you know, am I
worthy of this? You know, I've had a lot of
a lot of people within the queer community say, hey, Mitch,
we'd love your work, and we love your voice. And,
you know, keep doing it. But what we really need
is like, we love you, but what we really need
is a gay man to walk down the red carpet
(48:37):
at the Brownlow, holding his, you know, husband. And that's
what we really need. And, you know, I'm like, that's
the kind of.
S1 (48:46):
Yeah, sorry, I can't give that to you.
S2 (48:48):
Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, a lot of things
did hold me back, um, for years I thought about
it for years. And then it's just like, you know,
I did here on this little snippet. And that's when
I was in Italy with my partner, and I was like,
the snippet said, you know, it was around this 129
(49:09):
years and not one person has come out and publicly
stated their, you know, their queerness as a player, past
or present. And it's like one of the only sports
in the world. And I was just like, man, I've
I've had enough of this. I'm gonna I don't care.
I'm gonna I'm just gonna talk to us because it's
not true. And it's not just me. There's so many others.
(49:32):
And I'm gonna just I'm gonna just like, let's get
rid of this stat. And, um. Yeah, it was funny.
S1 (49:39):
I had still a stats driven footie player to the end.
S2 (49:43):
That was my true KPI that I'm most proud of. Yeah.
S1 (49:47):
Um, so I don't know. I guess I just want
to ask, what's next for you? Like, it feels like
you've had a big, big life already. But as we
mentioned off the top of the episode, you're 36 years old.
You're a bloody whippersnapper. At least compared to to me. Um.
What's next? You gotta settle in, I guess, to this
role of sort of unofficial Official spokesman, because people are
(50:08):
going to call on you for comment every time there's
some wisp like, oh, we might start a pride round,
let's ask Mitch about that. Somebody else was suspended for
a homophobic remark. Let's ask Mitch about that.
S2 (50:21):
It's it's a I don't take this question lightly. And
I it's one of the biggest questions that I'm still
reflecting on, still thinking about. I've asked a lot of
people for advice on this one. It's like, what next?
What what do I do? And I remember 11:11 a.m., 11:10.
The story came out on August the 28th. By 3 p.m.
(50:47):
I had a missed phone call, and I called this
by no number and I called a like a number
I didn't know. I called it back and it was
Sam Austin, the Governor general of Australia. I was like, okay, wow. Um,
she was amazing. She was so nice. And, um, It
was like a really cool, casual conversation. I was like,
(51:10):
she was like, do you have any questions for me?
I'm like, actually, I do have a question. I was like, Sam, hey,
what do I do now? Like what? What do I
what do you think I should do? What? Do you
have any advice for me? And she said to me,
one thing is like, don't stop. Don't stop now. You know,
(51:30):
keep speaking out. Keep speaking for those who can't. And,
you know, keep speaking for those who don't have the
support out there. And I mean that like, I'm so
lucky to have these amazing organizations to to have conversations
with you, Conrad, and like to have, you know, this
(51:51):
love and these messages. And yeah, I got a little
bit of hate, but, you know, I get so much love.
And my coming out experience has been so really positive
and uplifting. And there's been there's been personal like byproducts,
pardon the pun of the of this of. Yeah. I'll
walk a little bit taller. And I'm proud of who
(52:12):
I am and my queerness and and I know that
a lot of people don't have this support and they're
coming out. Experience is not positive. And, you know, I
just want to be able to share this love and
support that I have with those people. And one way
I can do that is to keep speaking out, keep talking,
keep sharing my story, and I will do that. And,
(52:34):
you know, yes, there's some things I want to get
my hands dirty with, especially within the men's AFL competition. And,
you know, the culture in the locker rooms around safety, inclusivity.
I want to change things, help make reform and, you know,
share my perspectives with players as a past player. And
I want to I want to do that. But I
also want to just keep being there for people who,
(52:57):
you know, that don't have anyone to look up to.
And now they do, especially within young, young boys who
are playing football. Um, I want to keep showing up
for them.
S1 (53:08):
Well, thanks for showing up. Thanks for speaking up. And
thanks for speaking with us today.
S2 (53:14):
Well, thanks for having me on, Conrad. Thank you.
S1 (53:19):
That was former AFL player Mitch Brown for the latest
good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember
to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts
and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations. Good Weekend
Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support
independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?
(53:43):
This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad
Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from
Cormac Lally. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick
is head of audio and Melissa Stevens is the editor
of Good Weekend.
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