August 29, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, we talk to Cate Campbell. Australian Dolphin number 665 debuted at the Beijing Olympics in 2008 at the tender age of 16. The teenager won two bronze medals at those games, and that was only the beginning. In her 16-year career in the pool, Campbell won eight Olympic medals – four of them gold – and breaking seven world records (her record for the 100-metre short-course freestyle still stands). The 33-year-old retired last year, and has since gone on to explore new fields including commentary and coaching – as well as opening up in a very brave and vulnerable way about the loneliness and depression she dealt with throughout her career. Now a mental health campaigner, Campbell is currently learning how to man the phones as a Lifeline crisis counsellor. She speaks to Good Weekend senior writer Konrad Marshall.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:35):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Cate Campbell. Australian dolphin number 665 debuted at the Beijing
Olympics in 2008 at the tender age of 16. The
teenager won two bronze medals at those games, and that
was only the beginning. In her 16 year career in
the pool, Campbell went on to win eight Olympic medals,
(00:56):
four of them gold, breaking seven world records, one of which,
the 100 metre short course freestyle, still stands. The 33
year old has spent half her life in the pool
meditating on that black line. She's tallied it up and
guesses she's done around 19 million strokes in her career,
covering around 35,000km. That's a quarter of the way around
(01:18):
the world. No biggie. She retired last year and has
since gone on to new things, which we'll discuss in
a moment, including opening up in a very brave and
vulnerable way about the loneliness and depression she dealt with
throughout her career. She speaks to us today from her
home on the Sunshine Coast, while I'm inside the Sound
studio in Melbourne at the age where it is freezing. Welcome, Kate,
(01:41):
and thanks for joining us on Good Weekend Talks.
S2 (01:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (01:45):
It's great to see you. I was mentioning just off
camera that I saw your little Instagram story this morning.
What was this a picture of? It was you on
the beach. Was that a sunrise there?
S2 (01:57):
Oh it was. I have well and truly settled into
the persona of that smug coastal person, and I'm just
going to fully embody it. I'm not even ashamed of it.
Like I just love it so much. And so I'm
sorry if anyone doesn't want to be spammed by beautiful
beaches and sunrises, you need to get off my social
(02:19):
media pages because it's just not going to stop.
S1 (02:22):
Amazing. All right, let's go back to the beginning. You're
the first of five kids. Um, of course we know
about your little sister, Bronte, but you also have a
brother with cerebral palsy who's cared for by your parents.
What was it like for you being the eldest? Like
the firstborn, the one to kind of lead the way.
Did any sort of pressure come with that?
S2 (02:40):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't really know any different, so.
But I would say that I definitely embody and inhabit
the persona of the eldest child. I am typically the
responsible one. I'm always looking out for people. I'm organizing things.
I'm the person who packs the sunscreen and the water
bottles and the spare pair of swimmers or towels. I
(03:03):
always have something available to pull out at any given situation,
so whether or not that is a byproduct of being
the firstborn child, or whether that's just part of my personality,
maybe the two go hand in hand. I'm not sure.
But yeah, I, I really enjoy being the eldest of
five children. I will definitely not be having five children.
(03:26):
My goodness, there are so many of us and it
is a lot. And my mother is an absolute saint
and uh, we, like you said, are a really diverse bunch.
We come in all shapes and sizes. We come from
Olympic champions right through to, uh, you know, someone in
the case of my brother who struggles with profound disability.
(03:48):
So my parents are parents to Olympic champions, but they
are also full time carers as as well as as
having their own day jobs. So, uh, I have sort
of a really varied and broad spectrum of experiences to
draw from, and I and I really do believe that
that's been a strength over the course of my career.
S1 (04:09):
And I can see how being that elder sister sort
of personality would have suited your swimming career, which began
in Queensland, of course, but you're not from there. You
were born in a little African country of Malawi. Um,
and I saw again on Instagram, you went back to
Africa earlier this year to celebrate your grandad's 90th, and
I think it was your 33rd birthday while you were
(04:31):
over there as well. Um, it looked gorgeous. And it
was the first time you'd been back in, what, 20 years?
What was that like?
S2 (04:39):
Yeah, it was incredible. I was, like you said, born
in the small African country called Malawi. Now, Malawi's claim
to fame is that Madonna adopts her children from there. Uh, sadly,
I was not chosen as that child to adopt. But,
you know, in retrospect, I think things have worked out
just fine for me. And, uh, moved over to Australia
when I was nine with my family, and it was
(05:03):
really beautiful going back. And it was a stark reminder
that we have come such a long, long way. You know,
Malawi is a really developing country. Uh, none of the roads, uh,
are fully tarred. They all pitted with potholes. Uh, there
(05:23):
are no sidewalks or gutters. Uh, there is. I don't
even think there's a traffic light in the town that
I was born. You know, when when we would go
and visit my grandparents in South Africa, we would be
so excited to go to the shopping center because we
get we got to decide if we were going to
go up the escalators and down the lift or up
(05:45):
the lift and down the escalators like that, that that
was the level of excitement. And so sitting on the
shores of beautiful Lake Malawi, which is where I spent
so much time as a youngster, and probably where I
really fell in love with the water. It was just
something that I was always in and around and became
(06:05):
a big part of me. But sitting on the shores
there and watching the locals go out and fish in
their dugout canoes, it made me realise how far we
had come from the shores of Lake Malawi to the
top of the Olympic podium, and it filled me with
this immense sense of gratitude for the opportunities that I've had,
(06:26):
for the sacrifices that people have made along the way.
You know, for my family to relocate themselves. They relocated continents. Uh,
we were a family of four children. My mum was
seven months pregnant at the time, and they relocated with
no home, no job, no car and a phone number
of a friend of a friend. And if that's not courage,
(06:46):
I don't know what is.
S1 (06:48):
Yeah.
S2 (06:48):
And for them to do that purely because they wanted
us as as children to have a better life. Uh,
it's a pretty incredible feat. And I think that really
hit home for me when I was able to go
back and experience, uh, my country of birth as an adult.
S1 (07:06):
What was it like when you moved here? I mean,
was that a a fearful sort of experience as a
little kid, or was it just bound up in excitement
and you felt like my parents have got this covered?
I'm just looking forward to whatever's next, this adventure.
S2 (07:19):
I think our parents really managed it really well. Uh,
they were very clear that we were coming to Australia,
and Australia was going to be our new home, and
they really wanted us to put down roots and embed
ourselves into the Australian culture. And so they created this
narrative for us that it was this big adventure. And
of course it was scary and we were leaving our
(07:41):
friends behind. Uh, we had been homeschooled up until that time.
So we were joining school for the first time, and
we were joining a brand new culture as well, that
the culture in Africa is quite different to the culture
in Australia. And so yes, it was big and scary
and unknown, but the the story and the context that
my parents put around it was that this was this
(08:02):
great big adventure, that we were doing it, uh, for
the betterment of our family, for the new opportunities. And
how great is this country of Australia? And let's embed
ourselves into it. And ultimately, that's why I ended up
as a swimmer, because we joined a local swim club.
It was just down the road from the house that
that we were renting at the time, and it was
one of the first things my parents did to embed
(08:24):
us into, uh, Australia was to get us to their
local sports club, which for us was was the swimming pool. So, uh, yeah,
it's it was it was difficult and challenging and eye opening.
I have this really clear memory of just being absolutely
blown away by the garbage trucks that would come with, like,
(08:45):
their big claws and pick up the rubbish bins like,
I had just never.
S1 (08:48):
Seen.
S2 (08:49):
Anything like it. Uh, to the point that, like, I
would wake up, all of us would would wake up
at 6 a.m. on a Monday morning because that was
bin day, and wait and look out the window to
watch the rubbish bins being emptied. Uh, I don't do
that anymore. I'm probably the person who's like, ah, no,
I can hear the garbage truck coming. I forgot to
put the bins out. That's all of us. That's all.
S1 (09:11):
Of us.
S2 (09:12):
That magic has well and truly dissipated. Uh, but it's
nice to go back to those memories of of my
first time here and and remember this utopia that I
thought that I had landed in.
S1 (09:26):
Amazing. So, as you mentioned, you took up swimming when
you got here and that was your way in, and
it became a really illustrious career for you. And I'm
thinking now that this question is a bit silly, but
I prepared you in advance, so maybe it's not. Is
there a specific sort of highlight for you of your career,
like a moment that stands out for sort of pure
(09:47):
joy or pure achievement or even just I'm so proud
of myself for overcoming something and doing this. Like what?
What stands out from your career?
S2 (09:58):
Yeah, I mean, there are a couple of really key moments,
probably one that I can point to, which wouldn't come
up on, you know, my my Wikipedia page or my
highlight reels is a moment from 2012. It was the
Olympic selection trials and it was the final of the
50m freestyle. Now Bronte, I have it. For those listeners
(10:21):
who aren't aware, I have a younger sister, Bronte, who's
two years younger than me. She's also an Olympian. She
also swims the 50 and the 100m freestyle, which are
the same events as me. I say that I'm the
eldest and I picked first. She should have done something different.
But anyway, uh, she followed in my footsteps. But this
means that we get to compete with each other, but
also against each other. But we had had this dream
(10:43):
of going to the Olympic Games since we were seven
and nine years old. And to qualify for an Olympics, uh, in,
in swimming, you have to come first or second, uh,
in your event at the Olympic trials and swim a
time that puts you within the top eight swimmers in
the world. And if you don't do that, then come
back in four years time and try again. And it
(11:04):
was the Olympic trials in 2012. I was already on
the Olympic team. I had qualified for the 100m freestyle,
but it was a 50m freestyle and it was Bronte's
last chance to qualify for the team and we had
to come first or second and we were up against,
you know, legends of the sport that the likes of
Libby Trickett, who was making a comeback and she was
(11:24):
in that final and we had grown up looking up
to her and racing her, and she was our idol
growing up. And I remember touching the wall and turning
around and seeing a number one and a number two
next to the two Campbell names on the scoreboard, and
it was pure joy like it. It's the moment that
(11:45):
stands out as being that moment of, oh my goodness,
we've done this. We've achieved a childhood dream and we
get to go to an Olympics together. And yeah, it's
it's it's not one that that I can point to
a medal or, you know, tell you an inspiring story about.
I didn't have to overcome anything, but it was just
an absolute moment of, oh my goodness, we've achieved this
(12:08):
dream in this moment. Uh, the chances of becoming an
Olympian in Australia is something like 0.0014%. So for one
person in a family to go to an Olympics, let
alone two coming true in that moment. Unbelievable.
S1 (12:23):
That's magical. A moment that comes to mind for me
was 2021. You're leading the, uh, the team into the
stadium in Tokyo. In those Olympics that were a year
late due to the pandemic. You're a flagbearer at the
opening ceremony alongside Patty Mills. What was that moment like
for you? Because it you look on top of the world.
(12:43):
It's an amazing moment. But behind closed doors, things had
been pretty tough for you coming into that.
S2 (12:49):
Yeah, they they had been pretty tough for me. I mean,
they'd been pretty tough for the world. But on a
personal note, I had been battling, uh, something which I
hadn't shared with just about anyone. You know, I'd spoken
to my doctors and my coach at the time, and
I had been diagnosed with depression in late in, in
2020 and then, uh, chose to to go on antidepressant
(13:14):
medication just a couple of weeks before those Olympic Games
because I just felt like I wasn't managing.
S1 (13:20):
And it's like a couple of weeks before a new medication.
S2 (13:24):
Yeah, it was it was after the Olympic trials. Uh,
so as I've mentioned, one of the most stressful things
you can go through and, uh, I had been diagnosed
with depression in 2020 and had been working with a psychologist.
I'd been doing all the things that you quote unquote,
should do. You know, I'd been doing my exercises. I'd
(13:45):
been speaking to someone, uh, and all the while I
was telling myself that I was I was on top
of this and I was feeling fine. And I got
to those Olympic trials and racing is the best part
of training. Uh, swimming is a notoriously training heavy sport,
and anyone who has done it for any period of
time will tell you that staring at that black line
(14:06):
for hours and hours and hours can send you slightly mad.
And it definitely does. So if you're not training to race,
why the hell are you training? And so, uh, racing
used to. While it was stressful and nerve wracking, it
was like could set you on fire and make you
feel alive. And I just remember walking out behind the
(14:27):
starting blocks before the final of that 100m freestyle, where
I was trying to qualify for the team and just
feeling this sense of dread, and it was something I
had never experienced before, and I immediately knew that something
was wrong, that despite everything I was doing, I was
not okay. And this is not how I should be feeling. Uh,
(14:50):
and I would say that all of the work that
I had done, all the techniques that I had learned, uh,
all the knowledge I had gained about my brain and
what it's doing and why it's sending me all those
signals allowed me to get through that moment. But I
touched the wall, turned around, saw that I had come
second behind our great Emma McKeon, and had qualified for
the team. And instead of being like, oh my goodness,
(15:13):
I've qualified for my fourth Olympic Games. What an incredible achievement.
I was just like, I have to do this again
in five weeks time and I don't know if I can.
And that was a real sign for me that something
was really wrong and that I was doing quote unquote,
everything right and still wasn't back to, to to where
I wanted or needed to be to be performing at
(15:34):
the highest level, even though I was, you know, I
was still managing. Uh, and so I spoke to my
doctor literally the next day and said, we need to
change something. I need to try something. We we have
to try and fix this because I don't want to.
I don't want to feel like this again. And, you know,
we we we were lucky in that the medication takes
(15:55):
a couple of weeks to come into effect, and I
could actually feel it. It's it's like the the way
that I describe it is like I could almost it
was like I was trying to peer over a fence
and I could like, just see the other side and
I could just see the person who I know that
I am when I'm healthy, but I just needed a
(16:16):
boost to get me over. And it was it was
just a little one and it was just a little boost.
And once I could get over it, I was like, oh,
here I am, this is who I am again. I
don't have to keep trying to find that person. Uh,
but yeah, it was it was an incredible moment walking out, uh,
alongside Patty Mills and carrying the flag and opening an
(16:39):
Olympic Games. That nearly didn't happen. That was postponed. Uh,
you know, the only other time the Olympics have not
taken taking place in an Olympic year is for a
world war. So it was a huge, monumental moment for
for so many reasons. And I think that walking out,
I just had this profound sense of gratitude for being
able to be there in that moment. And when we're
(17:02):
talking of childhood dreams, I could dream of going to
an Olympics or winning an Olympic gold medal. I couldn't,
in my wildest dreams have imagined that I would get
to be a flag bearer.
S1 (17:11):
Um, I listened to you chatting with, um, my buddy
Hugh Van Cuylenburg the other day on his podcast, The Imperfects.
And just sorry to stay on, um, the theme of
mental health. You you described how you felt like you
didn't deserve a diagnosis. What did you mean by that?
S2 (17:30):
Um, I mean, when I say I didn't deserve the
diagnosis of depression, is that, like, I have a great life?
I honestly do. I am living out. Or at the time,
I was living out the dream of nine year old Kate.
You know, I was objectively successful. I was doing the
(17:50):
thing that I loved. And. So what? Right did I
have to be feeling like this? Why did I feel
so down and so lost and so dejected and isolated
and upset? Why? Why was I feeling like this? Because
I have such a good. I'm. You know, I was
(18:12):
financially stable. I had friends and family. I had a
fulfilling career. Why why is this happening? And I it
shouldn't happen to me, you know, because my life is
so good. Uh, but if we if we extrapolate out
and why, I think it's really good that we talk
about in, in terms of mental health, if we think
(18:33):
of in terms of health, if someone comes down with
the flu or if they twist their ankle, or if
they're doing something really crazy and brave, like running a
marathon and they get injured. We don't ask. Oh, but like,
why did you get injured? Or we don't blame the
person for for coming down with the flu or for
injuring themselves in some way. But yet we feel like
(18:55):
because mental health exists in our head, that it's something
that we have control over. And so we either feel bad,
like we don't deserve it, or we look at people
and we think like, but what did you do to
put yourself in that situation?
S1 (19:09):
Like you're responsible, you're.
S2 (19:10):
Responsible.
S1 (19:11):
For your mental health. I've obviously become a really, uh,
broadly important topic for you. You've just joined Medibank's new
family roast campaign. What's that about?
S2 (19:22):
Yeah, family roast is a little bit of a play
on words because, you know, there's the Sunday roast, which
everyone used to get around the table and talk and
connect and, uh, the family roast that Medibank is asking
people to do is, uh, use some conversation starters in
terms of cards. And, uh, they're saying sit down and
(19:43):
actually have a conversation with your friends and family about
health and mental health and how you're actually going. Go
a little bit deeper. And it's interesting in that 2
in 3 Australians feel like they want to talk about
mental health with their friends and family more. And yet
only 7% of Australians are saying that mental health is
(20:04):
discussed openly in in their household. And sometimes it can
be the most challenging part can be taking that first step.
So bringing up the conversation and so sitting down with these,
these conversation cards can be a little bit of an icebreaker.
And not all of them are in depth. And like
you have to bare your soul. Some of them are fun,
some of them are lighthearted. It's reminiscing, but it's all
(20:28):
about connecting. And we live in a world that is
so disparate and we exist in our own little algorithm
bubbles in our silos, that actually coming together and speaking
about things that that are really meaningful is so important.
And I would say that I learned so much about
my family when we have those conversations as well. Uh,
(20:49):
it's really helpful not only for you to be able
to to share something that's on your mind, but for
you to be able to hear what an experience was like,
you know, particularly from your parent. I think that as
I've transitioned from a child to an adult, I look
back on experiences that I had as a child, and
I look at it through an adult lens and I think,
(21:09):
oh my goodness, like, what was that like for my parents?
Let me ask them about that. And it helps you
understand them more. It helps you understand yourself more. And
it's a really, really great initiative. And, uh, I'm someone who,
even though I talk a lot, I get stressed, uh,
(21:30):
about going into conversations if I know that they're going
to be a bit difficult. Uh, so even, you know,
I've been with my partner for seven years now, but
if we have a date night, I'm stressed that we're
going to, like, run out of things to talk about.
So I have conversation points like noted down. We don't
often need them, but, um, it's a great way to start.
S1 (21:59):
I understand you're also in training right now to be
a lifeline crisis worker. Like literally kind of manning the phones,
which first of all, that's amazing. Like well done, um,
for giving back in that way. And but like, what's
it been like, what have you learned.
S2 (22:15):
Yeah. It's a it's an incredible privilege to be able to,
to man the phones in in the lifeline crisis hotline.
And I, I did it sort of off the back
of some of the struggles that, that I've had. Uh,
I fortunately never got to a point where I felt
like I needed to, to call a line like lifeline, uh,
(22:37):
because I have a good support system and good support network.
But when I was in some of those dark places.
I thought to myself, imagine if I couldn't pick up
the phone and call a loved one. What would this
experience in this space for me feel like right now?
And lots of people around Australia don't have that support.
(23:00):
And so to be able to call a line like
lifeline and to be able to speak to someone on
the phone, whether or not it's a life or death
crisis situation, I would argue that intense loneliness and isolation
and the desire to connect with another human being is
a crisis in itself. And being able to, you know,
(23:22):
speak to someone about a challenging situation that you're going through.
And I've had, uh, I've been on the phones for
a little while now. Um, I'm about to enter the
next phase of training, but I've had the privilege of
talking to Australians who have, uh, called in, and I've
had every everyone from, you know, someone who is incredibly
(23:44):
lonely and, uh, they felt like they needed a connection
right the way through to someone who was being so
badly bullied that they're contemplating whether or not they, uh,
want to do something drastic on the way to school.
And it is incredibly humbling. Uh, it makes me intensely
grateful for my life and, uh, the people who I have.
(24:07):
But it also is a really beautiful way to be
able to give back to the community and to be
able to hear what everyday Australians are battling with. And
it's a it's a wonderful reminder that everyone struggles, and
sometimes all you need is someone to sit there with
you in your pain and listen. And that's been something
(24:30):
that I've, I've really learned from going through the training.
I tend to want to go into fix it mode
quite quickly, and actually all we need to do sometimes
is to sit there with someone and hear them and
bear witness to their experience.
S1 (24:45):
Amazing. Loneliness, of course, isn't some abstract theme that you're
plucking from the sky like it's something you've had experience with, um,
and came to kind of ravage your life at one
point there. I feel like I read, or I heard
that you found yourself at a speed dating event for friends. Like,
tell us about that.
S2 (25:05):
Yeah, I did. It was, uh, one of the, the
more surreal experiences. So I had I'd moved to Sydney. Uh,
I lived in Sydney for two years, uh, for, for
training purposes. So my coach moved down, and so I
moved down, and we were training at a high school.
And so, uh, essentially my my colleagues were my sister.
(25:26):
One other training, uh, partner and then, uh, high school
aged children. And when you move to a new city,
in a new place, how do you make friends? It's really,
really challenging. As an adult especially, I didn't have a workplace.
I worked really unsocial hours, you know, before and after
(25:47):
the usual workday. I travelled a lot. So even if
I met someone who I was like, oh my goodness,
this is a fun connection. And I felt like we
had a good time. I'd be want to say, oh,
shall we catch up? But can you catch up in
three months? Because that's the next time I'm back. Um,
but also you have to meet people where they're at.
(26:07):
And so some people, even though you have a really
great connection, they have a very full social life, they
have a full social calendar. They're plugged in. Uh, it's
not that they don't like you, it's that they just
probably don't think about you or have room for you.
And so I used to spend my weekends completely alone.
I would speak to people, uh, when I was at
(26:29):
training on Saturday morning and then literally not speak to
another living person in the flesh until Monday morning when
I returned back to training, and now I'm sure that
people with kids are like, oh my gosh, that's absolute heaven.
I would kill for a weekend like that. And it
was great for a little bit, but after a while
(26:51):
it really wears you down. And I was living by myself.
And so I was coming home to an empty house
every night, all by myself. I was spending all this
time with myself. And loneliness is one of those things
that the more isolated you are, the more isolated you become,
because your body detects that as a threat. And so
(27:11):
what forces you to withdraw? And it sees, uh, social
interactions because you really want it, because you really need
it as being like, oh, this could be really good
for you, or you could get very severely hurt. And
the more you want it, the more you stand to
get hurt by it. So it was, uh, on on
(27:31):
a whim. It was a weekend, and I was like,
I cannot spend another weekend by myself. How am I
going to meet people and make friends? And I literally
signed up to yeah, it was it was speed dating
for friends, essentially. It was like a big meet mixer, uh,
for everyone. And anyone could sign up. And I signed
(27:52):
up and was like, you know what? I'm either going
to get a really good story out of this or
I'm going to make friends. But either way, it is
a better alternative than sitting at home on a Saturday
night by myself again. Um, so yeah.
S1 (28:07):
Any any pals?
S2 (28:08):
I did and I did, I actually, so I got
some great stories because it was, it was so funny
walking in there and like, everyone's kind of nervous. Yeah.
Because I would say that making friends as an adult
is like dating you constantly. Like putting out little feelers,
being like, oh, do I connect with this person, do
I not? Um, and so everyone was kind of a
(28:30):
little bit nervous. There was every sort of stereotype you
could see, even though it was very explicitly a mixer
for making friends. There were clearly people who were on
the prowl and I was like, oh, I need to
stay away from them. Uh, but then I managed to to,
to meet this couple. And it's funny, I have never
had this experience before. And people talk about falling in
(28:52):
love at first sight. And I would say like, we
kind of just fell in friendship at first sight. When
you see someone and it's been so long since you've
had a meaningful connection and you within the first three
minutes of speaking to them, you're like, I feel seen
in a way that I haven't for a very, very
(29:12):
long time, and then you're just hoping and praying that
they're feeling the same, right? And then you have to
exchange numbers. And so like I, you know, I asked
for their number and it was, it was a it
was a married couple. And I went back to training
and people were like, Kate, you know, that they're a
married couple. Like, are you, are you worried? Like, are
(29:33):
you sure it's just friendship that they're after?
S1 (29:36):
Absolutely.
S2 (29:37):
And I was like, no, I'm sure it is. And,
you know, like. And I made, you know, I like
I messaged first, I was like, I had a great time.
We'd love to see you again. But then, you know,
there's some of my dearest friends even now, you know,
and they've, they, uh, were living in Australia, having moved
from Europe. They're now living back in Europe, but we
stay in contact. And it was it's funny hearing the
(29:59):
story from their perspective because they were like, oh my gosh.
We felt like we connected with Kate, but we don't
want to come on too strong. We don't want to
message first. Um, so yeah, it was just it was beautiful.
And it's just it's just a reminder to people that
you're not alone in, in struggling to make friends in,
in new cities and new places. I think I just
(30:19):
felt like such a loser. Like, here I was and
here I am, the successful person, uh, who is the
best in the world at what they do. And I'm
sitting at home on a Saturday night. And I just
felt like such a loser. Like, what is wrong with
me that I can't make friends? And it's something that I,
(30:41):
you know, had to be really kind to myself about. Uh,
but it's so normal and it requires a bit of
bravery and a bit of effort. Uh, but eventually you
will meet someone in the same space and same place
as you. And when you do, it's magical.
S1 (30:58):
Speaking of kindness, um, to self, you've been really open
over the years about, um, struggles with body image models
on TV and in magazines, making you want to be
more skinny. Um, kind of reminds me of Ash Barty.
During her career, she used to say that she'd go
into the the change rooms at Grand Slams and be
(31:18):
sort of surrounded by these tall, skinny, glamazon athletes and
would then need to go. She'd need to go change
in the like in a stall in private, because she
was sort of, I don't know, so self-conscious about her
muscular thighs, you know, which were like the legs were
her weapon, you know, and the same, like strong biceps
and stuff like that. Is that a really unique struggle
(31:39):
for highly calibrated female athletes insofar as, like you've, you
have to be weapons, you have to be at your top,
but you've got these sort of beauty standards to live
up to that don't match that.
S2 (31:54):
I would say it's a struggle for every single woman
or young girl at the moment, is figuring out what
that beauty standard is and how to assimilate to it.
And the fact that you don't look like, uh, these
people who are held up as, as aspirational and, uh,
society seems to think that if you are beautiful, you
are somehow worth more. And it seems to be at
(32:14):
the moment in particular, uh, if you are smaller. So
the smaller you are, the bigger your value. And that
is a really, really scary and dangerous message to particularly
young girls and, and women. And it's, it's a really
interesting thing to go through, uh, puberty in your swimmers.
(32:36):
Kind of in front of the world. I was essentially
a child when I went to my first Olympic Games
at 16. Uh, and then I transitioned all the way
through until, you know, a 30 year old woman and
your body is going to look and change and be very,
very different. I have been really, really interested in the
(32:57):
amount of talk and rhetoric that I still get around
my physical appearance, really. So I have retired from elite sport.
My body looks different to what it did when I
was at my physical best when I was. And I'm not.
I'm not blowing my own horn, but I was the
best in the world at what I did and quite.
S1 (33:19):
Like clearly, measurably.
S2 (33:20):
Yeah, clearly. Measurably, objectively, I was the absolute best. Uh,
but my body shape and what it looked like wouldn't
be deemed attractive Active and being attractive has social currency
and value. Uh, but it also it looks different. And
so I'm so surprised now that I've transitioned out of sport,
(33:42):
how many people from the general public feel like they
have a right to comment on my physique still? Um, uh,
and I can in my head, I can kind of
maybe understand and justify and conceptualize them doing it while
I was an athlete. I don't think that we ever,
ever should. It should not be a topic of conversation
(34:04):
at all, especially because it's spoken about in terms of females,
way more than men. We talk about body composition in
terms of females way, way more than men. But now
that I've taken a step back from the sport, I.
I look very different. So while you know my weight
on the scales, not that I weigh myself very often, uh,
(34:25):
hasn't changed the weight distribution in my body has. And
so the number of times that people have come up
to me, either while I've been out in public or,
you know, I'm, I'm trying to get back into some
social exercise. So I've joined a gym and they come
up to me and they say, oh, you've lost so
much weight. You look so skinny. Uh, how do you
(34:46):
stay so fit? Oh, it's great to see that you
haven't let yourself go. A lot of athletes let themselves go.
S1 (34:51):
Wow. I thought you were going to say that these
comments were coming at you on social media, where, you know,
which is the Wild West, and anything goes and you can't,
but in person, to your face, in.
S2 (35:04):
Person, to to my face and I, I get taken
aback each time. I'm like, the whole time you were
watching me on TV, were you commenting and critiquing what
I looked like? Because that's the first thing that you've
said to me. You know, it's like, oh, I loved
(35:24):
watching you swim. And then this next thing is what
I look like, and it's so interesting how often it
happens still. And it's just a reminder that particularly for women,
it's not about what you do, but it's what you
look like doing it that people take note of and
they still feel the need to comment about. And it's
(35:47):
just it makes me so sad. I, you know, I'm
I'm lucky in that I just sort of push it away.
I don't engage with it. Uh, but it makes me
really sad, uh, that all that time that that I
was competing, people were looking at my body and thinking
about what it looked like, as opposed to the feats
(36:08):
in the pool and to your example of Ash Barty. Absolutely. 100%.
She's one of our greatest and most loved Australian sporting icons.
And the fact that she felt shame, or I'm sure
that people were talking about her behind her back in
terms of what she looked like, because that's what it's about.
It's about what people look like, not their performance or
(36:29):
their outcomes that they're delivering, and it just blows my mind.
S1 (36:33):
Do you still like swimming? Like, I interviewed, um, Kieren
Perkins last year and I was like, what do you
do to work out these days? And he's like, I walk.
I'm like, wait, you don't you don't get in the pool.
You're going to get in the pool for us for
like a for a photo shoot for the mag. And
he's like, no, I don't swim. I never really liked swimming.
I it was like he swum because he was good
at swimming. He swam because it was something he could
(36:56):
test himself um, through. It was a way of measuring
his commitment and his ability, and he could compete. And
he liked the training because he could then have this
chance on race day to stack up. But it just
wasn't a fun thing. Is it a fun thing for you? Like.
S2 (37:15):
Uh, it definitely was. It was what I loved to
do most, you know, it was. I say that it's
it's my first and probably greatest love. Uh, is is swimming. Uh,
do I do I love to do it now? Do
I go down to a local swim pool and get
in the water there? No, but I'm down at the
beach every single morning and I.
S1 (37:36):
Get, oh, right, the smug sunshine coaster.
S2 (37:40):
I forgot the smug coastal life.
S1 (37:41):
Slipped it in again. Yeah. Nice.
S2 (37:44):
Uh, but there. But even. Even if I can't get
access to to a beach, there's something about submerging myself
in water that I still find so, so cleansing. I.
I don't swim in a swimming pool because I know
a how good I used to be and how terrible
I feel now. Uh, but I also know that, like,
(38:06):
my desire to then push myself and challenge myself and
get better and better, and that's not part of my
life anymore. Uh, my body very, very clearly towards the
end of my career, said, we've had enough that, like,
you can't keep doing this. And so it's time for
you to step away. So I, I don't swim in
that sense that I used to to push myself and
(38:27):
challenge myself. But my love of the water remains, and
I love being around people who are passionate about it. Uh,
you know, I recently got to go over seas with
the Junior Dolphins team as they prepared for the Junior
World Championships, and seeing them reminded me of myself when
(38:49):
I was their age. You know, the 1718 year olds
and their just their passion for the sport. And it's
it's a reminder that that was where I was at
the beginning. And it's something that, you know, I get
in a different way, but I have no desire to
(39:09):
to get back in the pool and challenge myself like
I did.
S1 (39:12):
That's actually a probably a good place where I'd like
to wrap up with, with one final question, because you've
have retired, you retired a year ago, you've moved on
to new things, you've got a great career, um, in
the media, you know, on pool decks for Nine's Wide
World of Sports appearing on the Today show as well. Um,
you've you've got your beautifully renovated place on the Sunshine Coast. You've, um,
(39:39):
you've gotten engaged, you've ticked all of these boxes, and
then you're working with young swimmers occasionally. I'm just wondering beyond,
like when you're speaking to these young swimmers, given everything
that you've experienced and what you've gone through and come
out on the other side beyond technique or training habits,
(39:59):
what kind of advice do you or can you or
or would you like to impart to these young athletes?
Like what's what's Kate Campbell learned that she can pass
on to the next 16 year old girl who's going
to line up at the Olympics?
S2 (40:16):
Yeah, it's a it's a really great question. I think
where I would start is I would first listen to them,
listen to their experiences and what they're going through and
the challenges that they're facing and, uh, the things that
excite them. So. So start from a place of listening. And,
you know, I feel like I learn from from the
(40:36):
youngsters now, even still. And once you've done that, it's
about sharing your experiences and what you did in certain situations.
And when you found this challenging, how did you overcome it? Uh,
but for me, it's not so much about preaching to
them about, you know, what you should do? Uh, I
(40:57):
think there's nothing more patronising to a young person than
an old person who says, you know, just remember these
times and hold on to them. Um, and they're like, ah,
it's awful. I'm stressed and my hormones are going crazy. And,
you know, I'm worried about, like, the next breakout that
I'm going to have or whatever it is. Uh, and
(41:18):
I think that being with people and stepping them through
the different stages and stages, and being a sounding board
for what they need is really important. And that's kind
of where I, I like to start. And then it
is also about sharing the experiences that I have had
along the way. And I would say that the, the
(41:39):
biggest thing that I have learned, uh, is or the, the,
the message that I try and and share with people
is that I'm an incredibly unremarkable person who has somehow
managed to lead this remarkable life. But every single great,
incredible thing that has happened to me has happened so
(42:03):
far out of my comfort zone that at the time,
it can feel awful and terrifying and kind of the
motto that I live my life on. And the last
thing that I would tell myself before I dive in
to the swimming pool is to simply be brave. And
why I like that is because bravery only exists in
(42:25):
a place where there is fear, where you feel uncomfortable,
where you feel nervous, where you feel stretched, uh, potentially
where failure could happen and occur. And so by telling
yourself to be brave, a you're telling yourself, I'm exactly
where I need to be. And B, you're saying I've
(42:46):
got this, and whatever happens, I know that I was
true to myself by putting myself in this moment. And
the rest? They're the experts in their own life. They
know what makes them work. You know, some of these
athletes are the best in the world at what they
do at such a young age. I'm not going to
be there to to tell them what to do in
their warm ups or their pre swim. Uh, but it's
(43:09):
just a reminder that you're doing the good like you're
doing it.
S1 (43:15):
Thank you so much. What a note to end on.
I really appreciate you speaking with us today Kate.
S2 (43:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (43:23):
That was Olympic swimming champion Cate Campbell on the latest
good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember
to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts
and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon.
We say g'day to Australian artist Ken Done, who's 85
years old but still going strong, producing his signature colorfully
(43:44):
bright paintings. He'll be joined in the studio by Sydney
Morning Herald arts editor Nick Galvin. Good Weekend Talks is
brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(44:06):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio.
And Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:35):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Cate Campbell. Australian dolphin number 665 debuted at the Beijing
Olympics in 2008 at the tender age of 16. The
teenager won two bronze medals at those games, and that
was only the beginning. In her 16 year career in
the pool, Campbell went on to win eight Olympic medals,
(00:56):
four of them gold, breaking seven world records, one of which,
the 100 metre short course freestyle, still stands. The 33
year old has spent half her life in the pool
meditating on that black line. She's tallied it up and
guesses she's done around 19 million strokes in her career,
covering around 35,000km. That's a quarter of the way around
(01:18):
the world. No biggie. She retired last year and has
since gone on to new things, which we'll discuss in
a moment, including opening up in a very brave and
vulnerable way about the loneliness and depression she dealt with
throughout her career. She speaks to us today from her
home on the Sunshine Coast, while I'm inside the Sound
studio in Melbourne at the age where it is freezing. Welcome, Kate,
(01:41):
and thanks for joining us on Good Weekend Talks.
S2 (01:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (01:45):
It's great to see you. I was mentioning just off
camera that I saw your little Instagram story this morning.
What was this a picture of? It was you on
the beach. Was that a sunrise there?
S2 (01:57):
Oh it was. I have well and truly settled into
the persona of that smug coastal person, and I'm just
going to fully embody it. I'm not even ashamed of it.
Like I just love it so much. And so I'm
sorry if anyone doesn't want to be spammed by beautiful
beaches and sunrises, you need to get off my social
(02:19):
media pages because it's just not going to stop.
S1 (02:22):
Amazing. All right, let's go back to the beginning. You're
the first of five kids. Um, of course we know
about your little sister, Bronte, but you also have a
brother with cerebral palsy who's cared for by your parents.
What was it like for you being the eldest? Like
the firstborn, the one to kind of lead the way.
Did any sort of pressure come with that?
S2 (02:40):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't really know any different, so.
But I would say that I definitely embody and inhabit
the persona of the eldest child. I am typically the
responsible one. I'm always looking out for people. I'm organizing things.
I'm the person who packs the sunscreen and the water
bottles and the spare pair of swimmers or towels. I
(03:03):
always have something available to pull out at any given situation,
so whether or not that is a byproduct of being
the firstborn child, or whether that's just part of my personality,
maybe the two go hand in hand. I'm not sure.
But yeah, I, I really enjoy being the eldest of
five children. I will definitely not be having five children.
(03:26):
My goodness, there are so many of us and it
is a lot. And my mother is an absolute saint
and uh, we, like you said, are a really diverse bunch.
We come in all shapes and sizes. We come from
Olympic champions right through to, uh, you know, someone in
the case of my brother who struggles with profound disability.
(03:48):
So my parents are parents to Olympic champions, but they
are also full time carers as as well as as
having their own day jobs. So, uh, I have sort
of a really varied and broad spectrum of experiences to
draw from, and I and I really do believe that
that's been a strength over the course of my career.
S1 (04:09):
And I can see how being that elder sister sort
of personality would have suited your swimming career, which began
in Queensland, of course, but you're not from there. You
were born in a little African country of Malawi. Um,
and I saw again on Instagram, you went back to
Africa earlier this year to celebrate your grandad's 90th, and
I think it was your 33rd birthday while you were
(04:31):
over there as well. Um, it looked gorgeous. And it
was the first time you'd been back in, what, 20 years?
What was that like?
S2 (04:39):
Yeah, it was incredible. I was, like you said, born
in the small African country called Malawi. Now, Malawi's claim
to fame is that Madonna adopts her children from there. Uh, sadly,
I was not chosen as that child to adopt. But,
you know, in retrospect, I think things have worked out
just fine for me. And, uh, moved over to Australia
when I was nine with my family, and it was
(05:03):
really beautiful going back. And it was a stark reminder
that we have come such a long, long way. You know,
Malawi is a really developing country. Uh, none of the roads, uh,
are fully tarred. They all pitted with potholes. Uh, there
(05:23):
are no sidewalks or gutters. Uh, there is. I don't
even think there's a traffic light in the town that
I was born. You know, when when we would go
and visit my grandparents in South Africa, we would be
so excited to go to the shopping center because we
get we got to decide if we were going to
go up the escalators and down the lift or up
(05:45):
the lift and down the escalators like that, that that
was the level of excitement. And so sitting on the
shores of beautiful Lake Malawi, which is where I spent
so much time as a youngster, and probably where I
really fell in love with the water. It was just
something that I was always in and around and became
(06:05):
a big part of me. But sitting on the shores
there and watching the locals go out and fish in
their dugout canoes, it made me realise how far we
had come from the shores of Lake Malawi to the
top of the Olympic podium, and it filled me with
this immense sense of gratitude for the opportunities that I've had,
(06:26):
for the sacrifices that people have made along the way.
You know, for my family to relocate themselves. They relocated continents. Uh,
we were a family of four children. My mum was
seven months pregnant at the time, and they relocated with
no home, no job, no car and a phone number
of a friend of a friend. And if that's not courage,
(06:46):
I don't know what is.
S1 (06:48):
Yeah.
S2 (06:48):
And for them to do that purely because they wanted
us as as children to have a better life. Uh,
it's a pretty incredible feat. And I think that really
hit home for me when I was able to go
back and experience, uh, my country of birth as an adult.
S1 (07:06):
What was it like when you moved here? I mean,
was that a a fearful sort of experience as a
little kid, or was it just bound up in excitement
and you felt like my parents have got this covered?
I'm just looking forward to whatever's next, this adventure.
S2 (07:19):
I think our parents really managed it really well. Uh,
they were very clear that we were coming to Australia,
and Australia was going to be our new home, and
they really wanted us to put down roots and embed
ourselves into the Australian culture. And so they created this
narrative for us that it was this big adventure. And
of course it was scary and we were leaving our
(07:41):
friends behind. Uh, we had been homeschooled up until that time.
So we were joining school for the first time, and
we were joining a brand new culture as well, that
the culture in Africa is quite different to the culture
in Australia. And so yes, it was big and scary
and unknown, but the the story and the context that
my parents put around it was that this was this
(08:02):
great big adventure, that we were doing it, uh, for
the betterment of our family, for the new opportunities. And
how great is this country of Australia? And let's embed
ourselves into it. And ultimately, that's why I ended up
as a swimmer, because we joined a local swim club.
It was just down the road from the house that
that we were renting at the time, and it was
one of the first things my parents did to embed
(08:24):
us into, uh, Australia was to get us to their
local sports club, which for us was was the swimming pool. So, uh, yeah,
it's it was it was difficult and challenging and eye opening.
I have this really clear memory of just being absolutely
blown away by the garbage trucks that would come with, like,
(08:45):
their big claws and pick up the rubbish bins like,
I had just never.
S1 (08:48):
Seen.
S2 (08:49):
Anything like it. Uh, to the point that, like, I
would wake up, all of us would would wake up
at 6 a.m. on a Monday morning because that was
bin day, and wait and look out the window to
watch the rubbish bins being emptied. Uh, I don't do
that anymore. I'm probably the person who's like, ah, no,
I can hear the garbage truck coming. I forgot to
put the bins out. That's all of us. That's all.
S1 (09:11):
Of us.
S2 (09:12):
That magic has well and truly dissipated. Uh, but it's
nice to go back to those memories of of my
first time here and and remember this utopia that I
thought that I had landed in.
S1 (09:26):
Amazing. So, as you mentioned, you took up swimming when
you got here and that was your way in, and
it became a really illustrious career for you. And I'm
thinking now that this question is a bit silly, but
I prepared you in advance, so maybe it's not. Is
there a specific sort of highlight for you of your career,
like a moment that stands out for sort of pure
(09:47):
joy or pure achievement or even just I'm so proud
of myself for overcoming something and doing this. Like what?
What stands out from your career?
S2 (09:58):
Yeah, I mean, there are a couple of really key moments,
probably one that I can point to, which wouldn't come
up on, you know, my my Wikipedia page or my
highlight reels is a moment from 2012. It was the
Olympic selection trials and it was the final of the
50m freestyle. Now Bronte, I have it. For those listeners
(10:21):
who aren't aware, I have a younger sister, Bronte, who's
two years younger than me. She's also an Olympian. She
also swims the 50 and the 100m freestyle, which are
the same events as me. I say that I'm the
eldest and I picked first. She should have done something different.
But anyway, uh, she followed in my footsteps. But this
means that we get to compete with each other, but
also against each other. But we had had this dream
(10:43):
of going to the Olympic Games since we were seven
and nine years old. And to qualify for an Olympics, uh, in,
in swimming, you have to come first or second, uh,
in your event at the Olympic trials and swim a
time that puts you within the top eight swimmers in
the world. And if you don't do that, then come
back in four years time and try again. And it
(11:04):
was the Olympic trials in 2012. I was already on
the Olympic team. I had qualified for the 100m freestyle,
but it was a 50m freestyle and it was Bronte's
last chance to qualify for the team and we had
to come first or second and we were up against,
you know, legends of the sport that the likes of
Libby Trickett, who was making a comeback and she was
(11:24):
in that final and we had grown up looking up
to her and racing her, and she was our idol
growing up. And I remember touching the wall and turning
around and seeing a number one and a number two
next to the two Campbell names on the scoreboard, and
it was pure joy like it. It's the moment that
(11:45):
stands out as being that moment of, oh my goodness,
we've done this. We've achieved a childhood dream and we
get to go to an Olympics together. And yeah, it's
it's it's not one that that I can point to
a medal or, you know, tell you an inspiring story about.
I didn't have to overcome anything, but it was just
an absolute moment of, oh my goodness, we've achieved this
(12:08):
dream in this moment. Uh, the chances of becoming an
Olympian in Australia is something like 0.0014%. So for one
person in a family to go to an Olympics, let
alone two coming true in that moment. Unbelievable.
S1 (12:23):
That's magical. A moment that comes to mind for me
was 2021. You're leading the, uh, the team into the
stadium in Tokyo. In those Olympics that were a year
late due to the pandemic. You're a flagbearer at the
opening ceremony alongside Patty Mills. What was that moment like
for you? Because it you look on top of the world.
(12:43):
It's an amazing moment. But behind closed doors, things had
been pretty tough for you coming into that.
S2 (12:49):
Yeah, they they had been pretty tough for me. I mean,
they'd been pretty tough for the world. But on a
personal note, I had been battling, uh, something which I
hadn't shared with just about anyone. You know, I'd spoken
to my doctors and my coach at the time, and
I had been diagnosed with depression in late in, in
2020 and then, uh, chose to to go on antidepressant
(13:14):
medication just a couple of weeks before those Olympic Games
because I just felt like I wasn't managing.
S1 (13:20):
And it's like a couple of weeks before a new medication.
S2 (13:24):
Yeah, it was it was after the Olympic trials. Uh,
so as I've mentioned, one of the most stressful things
you can go through and, uh, I had been diagnosed
with depression in 2020 and had been working with a psychologist.
I'd been doing all the things that you quote unquote,
should do. You know, I'd been doing my exercises. I'd
(13:45):
been speaking to someone, uh, and all the while I
was telling myself that I was I was on top
of this and I was feeling fine. And I got
to those Olympic trials and racing is the best part
of training. Uh, swimming is a notoriously training heavy sport,
and anyone who has done it for any period of
time will tell you that staring at that black line
(14:06):
for hours and hours and hours can send you slightly mad.
And it definitely does. So if you're not training to race,
why the hell are you training? And so, uh, racing
used to. While it was stressful and nerve wracking, it
was like could set you on fire and make you
feel alive. And I just remember walking out behind the
(14:27):
starting blocks before the final of that 100m freestyle, where
I was trying to qualify for the team and just
feeling this sense of dread, and it was something I
had never experienced before, and I immediately knew that something
was wrong, that despite everything I was doing, I was
not okay. And this is not how I should be feeling. Uh,
(14:50):
and I would say that all of the work that
I had done, all the techniques that I had learned, uh,
all the knowledge I had gained about my brain and
what it's doing and why it's sending me all those
signals allowed me to get through that moment. But I
touched the wall, turned around, saw that I had come
second behind our great Emma McKeon, and had qualified for
the team. And instead of being like, oh my goodness,
(15:13):
I've qualified for my fourth Olympic Games. What an incredible achievement.
I was just like, I have to do this again
in five weeks time and I don't know if I can.
And that was a real sign for me that something
was really wrong and that I was doing quote unquote,
everything right and still wasn't back to, to to where
I wanted or needed to be to be performing at
(15:34):
the highest level, even though I was, you know, I
was still managing. Uh, and so I spoke to my
doctor literally the next day and said, we need to
change something. I need to try something. We we have
to try and fix this because I don't want to.
I don't want to feel like this again. And, you know,
we we we were lucky in that the medication takes
(15:55):
a couple of weeks to come into effect, and I
could actually feel it. It's it's like the the way
that I describe it is like I could almost it
was like I was trying to peer over a fence
and I could like, just see the other side and
I could just see the person who I know that
I am when I'm healthy, but I just needed a
(16:16):
boost to get me over. And it was it was
just a little one and it was just a little boost.
And once I could get over it, I was like, oh,
here I am, this is who I am again. I
don't have to keep trying to find that person. Uh,
but yeah, it was it was an incredible moment walking out, uh,
alongside Patty Mills and carrying the flag and opening an
(16:39):
Olympic Games. That nearly didn't happen. That was postponed. Uh,
you know, the only other time the Olympics have not
taken taking place in an Olympic year is for a
world war. So it was a huge, monumental moment for
for so many reasons. And I think that walking out,
I just had this profound sense of gratitude for being
able to be there in that moment. And when we're
(17:02):
talking of childhood dreams, I could dream of going to
an Olympics or winning an Olympic gold medal. I couldn't,
in my wildest dreams have imagined that I would get
to be a flag bearer.
S1 (17:11):
Um, I listened to you chatting with, um, my buddy
Hugh Van Cuylenburg the other day on his podcast, The Imperfects.
And just sorry to stay on, um, the theme of
mental health. You you described how you felt like you
didn't deserve a diagnosis. What did you mean by that?
S2 (17:30):
Um, I mean, when I say I didn't deserve the
diagnosis of depression, is that, like, I have a great life?
I honestly do. I am living out. Or at the time,
I was living out the dream of nine year old Kate.
You know, I was objectively successful. I was doing the
(17:50):
thing that I loved. And. So what? Right did I
have to be feeling like this? Why did I feel
so down and so lost and so dejected and isolated
and upset? Why? Why was I feeling like this? Because
I have such a good. I'm. You know, I was
(18:12):
financially stable. I had friends and family. I had a
fulfilling career. Why why is this happening? And I it
shouldn't happen to me, you know, because my life is
so good. Uh, but if we if we extrapolate out
and why, I think it's really good that we talk
about in, in terms of mental health, if we think
(18:33):
of in terms of health, if someone comes down with
the flu or if they twist their ankle, or if
they're doing something really crazy and brave, like running a
marathon and they get injured. We don't ask. Oh, but like,
why did you get injured? Or we don't blame the
person for for coming down with the flu or for
injuring themselves in some way. But yet we feel like
(18:55):
because mental health exists in our head, that it's something
that we have control over. And so we either feel bad,
like we don't deserve it, or we look at people
and we think like, but what did you do to
put yourself in that situation?
S1 (19:09):
Like you're responsible, you're.
S2 (19:10):
Responsible.
S1 (19:11):
For your mental health. I've obviously become a really, uh,
broadly important topic for you. You've just joined Medibank's new
family roast campaign. What's that about?
S2 (19:22):
Yeah, family roast is a little bit of a play
on words because, you know, there's the Sunday roast, which
everyone used to get around the table and talk and
connect and, uh, the family roast that Medibank is asking
people to do is, uh, use some conversation starters in
terms of cards. And, uh, they're saying sit down and
(19:43):
actually have a conversation with your friends and family about
health and mental health and how you're actually going. Go
a little bit deeper. And it's interesting in that 2
in 3 Australians feel like they want to talk about
mental health with their friends and family more. And yet
only 7% of Australians are saying that mental health is
(20:04):
discussed openly in in their household. And sometimes it can
be the most challenging part can be taking that first step.
So bringing up the conversation and so sitting down with these,
these conversation cards can be a little bit of an icebreaker.
And not all of them are in depth. And like
you have to bare your soul. Some of them are fun,
some of them are lighthearted. It's reminiscing, but it's all
(20:28):
about connecting. And we live in a world that is
so disparate and we exist in our own little algorithm
bubbles in our silos, that actually coming together and speaking
about things that that are really meaningful is so important.
And I would say that I learned so much about
my family when we have those conversations as well. Uh,
(20:49):
it's really helpful not only for you to be able
to to share something that's on your mind, but for
you to be able to hear what an experience was like,
you know, particularly from your parent. I think that as
I've transitioned from a child to an adult, I look
back on experiences that I had as a child, and
I look at it through an adult lens and I think,
(21:09):
oh my goodness, like, what was that like for my parents?
Let me ask them about that. And it helps you
understand them more. It helps you understand yourself more. And
it's a really, really great initiative. And, uh, I'm someone who,
even though I talk a lot, I get stressed, uh,
(21:30):
about going into conversations if I know that they're going
to be a bit difficult. Uh, so even, you know,
I've been with my partner for seven years now, but
if we have a date night, I'm stressed that we're
going to, like, run out of things to talk about.
So I have conversation points like noted down. We don't
often need them, but, um, it's a great way to start.
S1 (21:59):
I understand you're also in training right now to be
a lifeline crisis worker. Like literally kind of manning the phones,
which first of all, that's amazing. Like well done, um,
for giving back in that way. And but like, what's
it been like, what have you learned.
S2 (22:15):
Yeah. It's a it's an incredible privilege to be able to,
to man the phones in in the lifeline crisis hotline.
And I, I did it sort of off the back
of some of the struggles that, that I've had. Uh,
I fortunately never got to a point where I felt
like I needed to, to call a line like lifeline, uh,
(22:37):
because I have a good support system and good support network.
But when I was in some of those dark places.
I thought to myself, imagine if I couldn't pick up
the phone and call a loved one. What would this
experience in this space for me feel like right now?
And lots of people around Australia don't have that support.
(23:00):
And so to be able to call a line like
lifeline and to be able to speak to someone on
the phone, whether or not it's a life or death
crisis situation, I would argue that intense loneliness and isolation
and the desire to connect with another human being is
a crisis in itself. And being able to, you know,
(23:22):
speak to someone about a challenging situation that you're going through.
And I've had, uh, I've been on the phones for
a little while now. Um, I'm about to enter the
next phase of training, but I've had the privilege of
talking to Australians who have, uh, called in, and I've
had every everyone from, you know, someone who is incredibly
(23:44):
lonely and, uh, they felt like they needed a connection
right the way through to someone who was being so
badly bullied that they're contemplating whether or not they, uh,
want to do something drastic on the way to school.
And it is incredibly humbling. Uh, it makes me intensely
grateful for my life and, uh, the people who I have.
(24:07):
But it also is a really beautiful way to be
able to give back to the community and to be
able to hear what everyday Australians are battling with. And
it's a it's a wonderful reminder that everyone struggles, and
sometimes all you need is someone to sit there with
you in your pain and listen. And that's been something
(24:30):
that I've, I've really learned from going through the training.
I tend to want to go into fix it mode
quite quickly, and actually all we need to do sometimes
is to sit there with someone and hear them and
bear witness to their experience.
S1 (24:45):
Amazing. Loneliness, of course, isn't some abstract theme that you're
plucking from the sky like it's something you've had experience with, um,
and came to kind of ravage your life at one
point there. I feel like I read, or I heard
that you found yourself at a speed dating event for friends. Like,
tell us about that.
S2 (25:05):
Yeah, I did. It was, uh, one of the, the
more surreal experiences. So I had I'd moved to Sydney. Uh,
I lived in Sydney for two years, uh, for, for
training purposes. So my coach moved down, and so I
moved down, and we were training at a high school.
And so, uh, essentially my my colleagues were my sister.
(25:26):
One other training, uh, partner and then, uh, high school
aged children. And when you move to a new city,
in a new place, how do you make friends? It's really,
really challenging. As an adult especially, I didn't have a workplace.
I worked really unsocial hours, you know, before and after
(25:47):
the usual workday. I travelled a lot. So even if
I met someone who I was like, oh my goodness,
this is a fun connection. And I felt like we
had a good time. I'd be want to say, oh,
shall we catch up? But can you catch up in
three months? Because that's the next time I'm back. Um,
but also you have to meet people where they're at.
(26:07):
And so some people, even though you have a really
great connection, they have a very full social life, they
have a full social calendar. They're plugged in. Uh, it's
not that they don't like you, it's that they just
probably don't think about you or have room for you.
And so I used to spend my weekends completely alone.
I would speak to people, uh, when I was at
(26:29):
training on Saturday morning and then literally not speak to
another living person in the flesh until Monday morning when
I returned back to training, and now I'm sure that
people with kids are like, oh my gosh, that's absolute heaven.
I would kill for a weekend like that. And it
was great for a little bit, but after a while
(26:51):
it really wears you down. And I was living by myself.
And so I was coming home to an empty house
every night, all by myself. I was spending all this
time with myself. And loneliness is one of those things
that the more isolated you are, the more isolated you become,
because your body detects that as a threat. And so
(27:11):
what forces you to withdraw? And it sees, uh, social
interactions because you really want it, because you really need
it as being like, oh, this could be really good
for you, or you could get very severely hurt. And
the more you want it, the more you stand to
get hurt by it. So it was, uh, on on
(27:31):
a whim. It was a weekend, and I was like,
I cannot spend another weekend by myself. How am I
going to meet people and make friends? And I literally
signed up to yeah, it was it was speed dating
for friends, essentially. It was like a big meet mixer, uh,
for everyone. And anyone could sign up. And I signed
(27:52):
up and was like, you know what? I'm either going
to get a really good story out of this or
I'm going to make friends. But either way, it is
a better alternative than sitting at home on a Saturday
night by myself again. Um, so yeah.
S1 (28:07):
Any any pals?
S2 (28:08):
I did and I did, I actually, so I got
some great stories because it was, it was so funny
walking in there and like, everyone's kind of nervous. Yeah.
Because I would say that making friends as an adult
is like dating you constantly. Like putting out little feelers,
being like, oh, do I connect with this person, do
I not? Um, and so everyone was kind of a
(28:30):
little bit nervous. There was every sort of stereotype you
could see, even though it was very explicitly a mixer
for making friends. There were clearly people who were on
the prowl and I was like, oh, I need to
stay away from them. Uh, but then I managed to to,
to meet this couple. And it's funny, I have never
had this experience before. And people talk about falling in
(28:52):
love at first sight. And I would say like, we
kind of just fell in friendship at first sight. When
you see someone and it's been so long since you've
had a meaningful connection and you within the first three
minutes of speaking to them, you're like, I feel seen
in a way that I haven't for a very, very
(29:12):
long time, and then you're just hoping and praying that
they're feeling the same, right? And then you have to
exchange numbers. And so like I, you know, I asked
for their number and it was, it was a it
was a married couple. And I went back to training
and people were like, Kate, you know, that they're a
married couple. Like, are you, are you worried? Like, are
(29:33):
you sure it's just friendship that they're after?
S1 (29:36):
Absolutely.
S2 (29:37):
And I was like, no, I'm sure it is. And,
you know, like. And I made, you know, I like
I messaged first, I was like, I had a great time.
We'd love to see you again. But then, you know,
there's some of my dearest friends even now, you know,
and they've, they, uh, were living in Australia, having moved
from Europe. They're now living back in Europe, but we
stay in contact. And it was it's funny hearing the
(29:59):
story from their perspective because they were like, oh my gosh.
We felt like we connected with Kate, but we don't
want to come on too strong. We don't want to
message first. Um, so yeah, it was just it was beautiful.
And it's just it's just a reminder to people that
you're not alone in, in struggling to make friends in,
in new cities and new places. I think I just
(30:19):
felt like such a loser. Like, here I was and
here I am, the successful person, uh, who is the
best in the world at what they do. And I'm
sitting at home on a Saturday night. And I just
felt like such a loser. Like, what is wrong with
me that I can't make friends? And it's something that I,
(30:41):
you know, had to be really kind to myself about. Uh,
but it's so normal and it requires a bit of
bravery and a bit of effort. Uh, but eventually you
will meet someone in the same space and same place
as you. And when you do, it's magical.
S1 (30:58):
Speaking of kindness, um, to self, you've been really open
over the years about, um, struggles with body image models
on TV and in magazines, making you want to be
more skinny. Um, kind of reminds me of Ash Barty.
During her career, she used to say that she'd go
into the the change rooms at Grand Slams and be
(31:18):
sort of surrounded by these tall, skinny, glamazon athletes and
would then need to go. She'd need to go change
in the like in a stall in private, because she
was sort of, I don't know, so self-conscious about her
muscular thighs, you know, which were like the legs were
her weapon, you know, and the same, like strong biceps
and stuff like that. Is that a really unique struggle
(31:39):
for highly calibrated female athletes insofar as, like you've, you
have to be weapons, you have to be at your top,
but you've got these sort of beauty standards to live
up to that don't match that.
S2 (31:54):
I would say it's a struggle for every single woman
or young girl at the moment, is figuring out what
that beauty standard is and how to assimilate to it.
And the fact that you don't look like, uh, these
people who are held up as, as aspirational and, uh,
society seems to think that if you are beautiful, you
are somehow worth more. And it seems to be at
(32:14):
the moment in particular, uh, if you are smaller. So
the smaller you are, the bigger your value. And that
is a really, really scary and dangerous message to particularly
young girls and, and women. And it's, it's a really
interesting thing to go through, uh, puberty in your swimmers.
(32:36):
Kind of in front of the world. I was essentially
a child when I went to my first Olympic Games
at 16. Uh, and then I transitioned all the way
through until, you know, a 30 year old woman and
your body is going to look and change and be very,
very different. I have been really, really interested in the
(32:57):
amount of talk and rhetoric that I still get around
my physical appearance, really. So I have retired from elite sport.
My body looks different to what it did when I
was at my physical best when I was. And I'm not.
I'm not blowing my own horn, but I was the
best in the world at what I did and quite.
S1 (33:19):
Like clearly, measurably.
S2 (33:20):
Yeah, clearly. Measurably, objectively, I was the absolute best. Uh,
but my body shape and what it looked like wouldn't
be deemed attractive Active and being attractive has social currency
and value. Uh, but it also it looks different. And
so I'm so surprised now that I've transitioned out of sport,
(33:42):
how many people from the general public feel like they
have a right to comment on my physique still? Um, uh,
and I can in my head, I can kind of
maybe understand and justify and conceptualize them doing it while
I was an athlete. I don't think that we ever,
ever should. It should not be a topic of conversation
(34:04):
at all, especially because it's spoken about in terms of females,
way more than men. We talk about body composition in
terms of females way, way more than men. But now
that I've taken a step back from the sport, I.
I look very different. So while you know my weight
on the scales, not that I weigh myself very often, uh,
(34:25):
hasn't changed the weight distribution in my body has. And
so the number of times that people have come up
to me, either while I've been out in public or,
you know, I'm, I'm trying to get back into some
social exercise. So I've joined a gym and they come
up to me and they say, oh, you've lost so
much weight. You look so skinny. Uh, how do you
(34:46):
stay so fit? Oh, it's great to see that you
haven't let yourself go. A lot of athletes let themselves go.
S1 (34:51):
Wow. I thought you were going to say that these
comments were coming at you on social media, where, you know,
which is the Wild West, and anything goes and you can't,
but in person, to your face, in.
S2 (35:04):
Person, to to my face and I, I get taken
aback each time. I'm like, the whole time you were
watching me on TV, were you commenting and critiquing what
I looked like? Because that's the first thing that you've
said to me. You know, it's like, oh, I loved
(35:24):
watching you swim. And then this next thing is what
I look like, and it's so interesting how often it
happens still. And it's just a reminder that particularly for women,
it's not about what you do, but it's what you
look like doing it that people take note of and
they still feel the need to comment about. And it's
(35:47):
just it makes me so sad. I, you know, I'm
I'm lucky in that I just sort of push it away.
I don't engage with it. Uh, but it makes me
really sad, uh, that all that time that that I
was competing, people were looking at my body and thinking
about what it looked like, as opposed to the feats
(36:08):
in the pool and to your example of Ash Barty. Absolutely. 100%.
She's one of our greatest and most loved Australian sporting icons.
And the fact that she felt shame, or I'm sure
that people were talking about her behind her back in
terms of what she looked like, because that's what it's about.
It's about what people look like, not their performance or
(36:29):
their outcomes that they're delivering, and it just blows my mind.
S1 (36:33):
Do you still like swimming? Like, I interviewed, um, Kieren
Perkins last year and I was like, what do you
do to work out these days? And he's like, I walk.
I'm like, wait, you don't you don't get in the pool.
You're going to get in the pool for us for
like a for a photo shoot for the mag. And
he's like, no, I don't swim. I never really liked swimming.
I it was like he swum because he was good
at swimming. He swam because it was something he could
(36:56):
test himself um, through. It was a way of measuring
his commitment and his ability, and he could compete. And
he liked the training because he could then have this
chance on race day to stack up. But it just
wasn't a fun thing. Is it a fun thing for you? Like.
S2 (37:15):
Uh, it definitely was. It was what I loved to
do most, you know, it was. I say that it's
it's my first and probably greatest love. Uh, is is swimming. Uh,
do I do I love to do it now? Do
I go down to a local swim pool and get
in the water there? No, but I'm down at the
beach every single morning and I.
S1 (37:36):
Get, oh, right, the smug sunshine coaster.
S2 (37:40):
I forgot the smug coastal life.
S1 (37:41):
Slipped it in again. Yeah. Nice.
S2 (37:44):
Uh, but there. But even. Even if I can't get
access to to a beach, there's something about submerging myself
in water that I still find so, so cleansing. I.
I don't swim in a swimming pool because I know
a how good I used to be and how terrible
I feel now. Uh, but I also know that, like,
(38:06):
my desire to then push myself and challenge myself and
get better and better, and that's not part of my
life anymore. Uh, my body very, very clearly towards the
end of my career, said, we've had enough that, like,
you can't keep doing this. And so it's time for
you to step away. So I, I don't swim in
that sense that I used to to push myself and
(38:27):
challenge myself. But my love of the water remains, and
I love being around people who are passionate about it. Uh,
you know, I recently got to go over seas with
the Junior Dolphins team as they prepared for the Junior
World Championships, and seeing them reminded me of myself when
(38:49):
I was their age. You know, the 1718 year olds
and their just their passion for the sport. And it's
it's a reminder that that was where I was at
the beginning. And it's something that, you know, I get
in a different way, but I have no desire to
(39:09):
to get back in the pool and challenge myself like
I did.
S1 (39:12):
That's actually a probably a good place where I'd like
to wrap up with, with one final question, because you've
have retired, you retired a year ago, you've moved on
to new things, you've got a great career, um, in
the media, you know, on pool decks for Nine's Wide
World of Sports appearing on the Today show as well. Um,
you've you've got your beautifully renovated place on the Sunshine Coast. You've, um,
(39:39):
you've gotten engaged, you've ticked all of these boxes, and
then you're working with young swimmers occasionally. I'm just wondering beyond,
like when you're speaking to these young swimmers, given everything
that you've experienced and what you've gone through and come
out on the other side beyond technique or training habits,
(39:59):
what kind of advice do you or can you or
or would you like to impart to these young athletes?
Like what's what's Kate Campbell learned that she can pass
on to the next 16 year old girl who's going
to line up at the Olympics?
S2 (40:16):
Yeah, it's a it's a really great question. I think
where I would start is I would first listen to them,
listen to their experiences and what they're going through and
the challenges that they're facing and, uh, the things that
excite them. So. So start from a place of listening. And,
you know, I feel like I learn from from the
(40:36):
youngsters now, even still. And once you've done that, it's
about sharing your experiences and what you did in certain situations.
And when you found this challenging, how did you overcome it? Uh,
but for me, it's not so much about preaching to
them about, you know, what you should do? Uh, I
(40:57):
think there's nothing more patronising to a young person than
an old person who says, you know, just remember these
times and hold on to them. Um, and they're like, ah,
it's awful. I'm stressed and my hormones are going crazy. And,
you know, I'm worried about, like, the next breakout that
I'm going to have or whatever it is. Uh, and
(41:18):
I think that being with people and stepping them through
the different stages and stages, and being a sounding board
for what they need is really important. And that's kind
of where I, I like to start. And then it
is also about sharing the experiences that I have had
along the way. And I would say that the, the
(41:39):
biggest thing that I have learned, uh, is or the, the,
the message that I try and and share with people
is that I'm an incredibly unremarkable person who has somehow
managed to lead this remarkable life. But every single great,
incredible thing that has happened to me has happened so
(42:03):
far out of my comfort zone that at the time,
it can feel awful and terrifying and kind of the
motto that I live my life on. And the last
thing that I would tell myself before I dive in
to the swimming pool is to simply be brave. And
why I like that is because bravery only exists in
(42:25):
a place where there is fear, where you feel uncomfortable,
where you feel nervous, where you feel stretched, uh, potentially
where failure could happen and occur. And so by telling
yourself to be brave, a you're telling yourself, I'm exactly
where I need to be. And B, you're saying I've
(42:46):
got this, and whatever happens, I know that I was
true to myself by putting myself in this moment. And
the rest? They're the experts in their own life. They
know what makes them work. You know, some of these
athletes are the best in the world at what they
do at such a young age. I'm not going to
be there to to tell them what to do in
their warm ups or their pre swim. Uh, but it's
(43:09):
just a reminder that you're doing the good like you're
doing it.
S1 (43:15):
Thank you so much. What a note to end on.
I really appreciate you speaking with us today Kate.
S2 (43:20):
Thank you so much for having me.
S1 (43:23):
That was Olympic swimming champion Cate Campbell on the latest
good weekend talks. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember
to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts
and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon.
We say g'day to Australian artist Ken Done, who's 85
years old but still going strong, producing his signature colorfully
(43:44):
bright paintings. He'll be joined in the studio by Sydney
Morning Herald arts editor Nick Galvin. Good Weekend Talks is
brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(44:06):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio.
And Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
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