May 30, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode we bring you the remarkable story of Miriam* (not her real name), a survivor of forced marriage. Often confused with arranged marriage, forced marriage means one person is not giving their full consent – sometimes due to coercion, deception, incapacitation or threats. Each year the Australian Federal Police deal with about 90 cases, although this is thought to represent a fraction of the problem, which was made a crime in Australia in 2013.
Miriam escaped her fate by chipping away at the glue her parents had used to seal her window, and running away just one week before her planned wedding to a man she did not know. In today’s episode, we have changed her name, omitted some details, and also used AI technology to disguise her voice and protect her identity, for this difficult conversation about the feature story – "No Going Back" – which you can read in the pages of our magazine, by Good Weekend senior writer Melissa Fyfe.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:30):
stories of the day. In this episode, we bring you
the remarkable story of Miriam, a survivor of forced marriage.
Often confused with arranged marriage. Forced marriage means one person
is not giving their full consent, sometimes due to coercion, deception, incapacitation,
or threats. Each year, the Australian Federal Police deal with
(00:52):
about 90 cases, although this is thought to represent a
fraction of the problem which was made a crime in
Australia in 2013. This week's cover story, This Ends With me,
is about the scourge of forced marriage faced by people
such as Miriam. In 2019, in Melbourne's northern suburbs, an
artist stumbled upon a group of women, including Miriam, who
(01:15):
were about to be married against their will. This artist,
who will call Beck, helped the young women escape from
their family homes, often in the dead of night. In
the month before Miriam's escape, she chipped away at the
glue her parents had used to seal her window, and
finally gained the courage to jump out that window and
run away. Just one week before her planned wedding to
(01:37):
a man she did not know. In today's episode, we
have changed Miriam's name, omitted some details, and also used
AI technology to disguise her voice and protect her identity.
In this difficult conversation about the long form story, you
can read in the pages of our magazine by Good
Weekend Senior writer Melissa Fyfe.
S2 (01:57):
Thanks, Konrad, and welcome, Miriam.
S3 (02:00):
Thank you.
S2 (02:01):
So let's start at the beginning of your story. You
came out to Australia as a as a young girl.
S3 (02:08):
Yeah.
S2 (02:08):
You were living in Asia and you came out with
your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about
what they were like and what your childhood was like?
S3 (02:17):
My parents were quite extreme religious extremist when it came
to religion. Um, they were also very restrictive in what
we can do, what we can't do or what we
can say, what we can't say in the house. Um, so,
for example, like, um, when it comes to food, like
when it comes to cooking, the father is the man
(02:38):
of the house. He needs to eat first before anyone else.
And later on, if we wanted to eat, we couldn't sometimes.
S2 (02:45):
Why was that?
S3 (02:47):
It was, um, our way of giving respect to the
men of the house to like that. Like only he
can eat what he wants. But for us, we can't
always eat. We can only eat when he wants us
to eat and choose his punishment as well.
S2 (03:02):
And what was your childhood like? You came out to Australia.
Did you go to school?
S3 (03:07):
Uh, no. So when I came to Australia, I didn't
go to school. I wasn't homeschooled as well. I was
just growing up. And then when it came to my puberty, um,
I started they started putting me into Islamic studies, you know,
to memorize the Quran. Um, because that was a very
high status in our society. So they wanted that, um,
(03:29):
for the family status. So that was it. And I
only went to school doing BC. So from grade ten.
S2 (03:36):
Right. And so in the time that you were at
home and not in school, you were learning the Quran,
which as you say, you memorize the whole the whole thing. Yep.
And that was a very prized skill.
S3 (03:50):
Yeah. Very prized skill.
S2 (03:52):
And why do you think your parents decided to, um,
encourage you to do that?
S3 (03:56):
Um, because When one a girl hits her puberty, they
start getting marriage proposals, marriage prospects, and a lot of
them were falling when they came from. Like they weren't
going through with the marriage. So one of the advice
I was given was because I wasn't educated. So my
parents took it as not educated as in the religious wise.
(04:17):
That's why they put me down that path of memorizing
the Quran.
S2 (04:20):
And so when the first man was introduced to you,
when you were, how old were you then?
S3 (04:25):
I was 12.
S2 (04:26):
12. What did you think? Like what? What? And what
was it? How was it put to you that you
were to marry this person?
S3 (04:33):
I was angry and confused and the man was very
old as well. So the feeling I got was very slimy,
like a slimy character. Yeah. And I was angry as well.
And because of that anger, my parents, of course, um,
beat me for it. Because I wasn't supposed to be
showing anger. I supposed to be compliant, but I wasn't.
And the more I rebelled against the marriage marriage proposals,
(04:54):
the more restrictive they kept me in the home.
S2 (04:58):
Did you understand this to be a normal thing that
you were given, that you were supposed to marry a man,
or be or be engaged? Or, I guess, to a
man when you were so young?
S3 (05:09):
Yeah. For us, it was a norm for us girls
and boys. It was a very normal thing to be
married as soon as you hit puberty.
S2 (05:16):
And we're talking there about an Islamic marriage, obviously, because
an Australian marriage wouldn't be legal at even islamically.
S3 (05:22):
It's actually not legal to be married under aged. So
they are just twisting religious beliefs into cultural, um, goals
and perspective, which is not right, just what they did.
S2 (05:33):
And because you knew the Quran so well, you knew
that this wasn't.
S3 (05:38):
Yeah, that was later on. Like as I started to
go in depth into the Quran, I started to realize
that this is not right. Like everything that we were
being taught, um, was not right. That that was being
implemented on us on a day to day life was
not right.
S2 (05:51):
Yeah. And sometimes you got to because when you were
learning the Quran, you got to sneak to sneak some
a peek at the English translations. So you sort of
could tell also that the things that you were being
taught at school didn't quite match up to what your
faith was. Yeah. And what were the things that you
were being taught at school?
S3 (06:10):
For example, um, women should not have a voice. They
should not dream of having a career. Um, they have
no self, right? They have no say in anything. That's
that's what we were taught. And that what we were
told from our men in the house is what we
have to listen to. Um, we were subjected to not
even looking after our basic self, not even personal hygiene.
(06:32):
That was a big thing. But even that we had
to neglect that. Like we were taught to neglect our
personal hygiene, our self-care, mental wellness, all that.
S2 (06:42):
And what was your education like when you finally got
to go to school, which is sort of extremely late?
You tend for most people. What was it like?
S3 (06:52):
Um, of course I was so scared. But it was
fun because the teachers helped a lot when it came
to education, like maths and English. Um. Because of me,
my mum was in the Quran. That helped with my
memory and being able to adapt and catch on to things,
to learn things. And also the English translation of Quran
helped with my comprehension with English. So with English I
(07:14):
was good with maths. Oh my God, it was a
nightmare and I couldn't. I couldn't come at home and
do homework.
S2 (07:21):
Why not?
S3 (07:22):
They would. My parents would not allow it. They're saying
home is just for home chores, no studies. And if
you fail in class, that's your problem. And of course
we do get punished for it. So their thing was
that we had to finish homework at school and we
could even ask for help, um, when it came to
classwork or like, you know, equations, for example, or poetry
(07:42):
writing or storytelling.
S2 (07:44):
And what about the school? Did it encourage you to, um,
have a career or was it was it was there
equal opportunities with the boys and the girls.
S3 (07:56):
So there was no equal opportunity with the boys and girls.
The boys and girls were separated from grade four in
all Islamic schools. Um, and the boys get to go
on as sports competitions from inter-school sports competitions, camping, all
sorts of adventures for them. Whereas the girls were not
like that. We are, we don't. We don't even play sports.
(08:18):
We don't even do the basics athletics. You know, for
some schools they will have jogging in the morning or
like a little PE. We don't even have that. Our
basic PE was literally just in the gym. So in
the building just doing one lap and that's it. And
just being tutored on we were tutored on how to
play the sports, like for example, soccer, football, volleyball. But
(08:38):
we weren't able to play it. We weren't allowed to
play it.
S2 (08:41):
So you knew how to play it technically, but you
didn't get to play it.
S3 (08:45):
But I believe we were taught how to play it
because of the test that we were given. So because
it was a compulsory subject then? Yeah. So we had
for that. I'm pretty sure they took out the scores
from there instead of us getting the scores from playing.
S2 (08:58):
Yeah. So you had this, um, first man that was
introduced when you were 12, and then how many came
after that?
S3 (09:06):
Um, first it was 12 and then one was 15,
and the last one was 18. And the final one was, um,
but before I escaped.
S2 (09:17):
And they, for whatever reason, kept falling through. What was
the consequence of that for you at home?
S3 (09:25):
Um, the consequence. My parents blamed me for the marriage
proposals falling through. And the more it fell through, the more, um,
they they bashed me, and sometimes they bashed, like, you know,
the parent. I have a little brother as well. They
they they used him to keep me in control. Like,
if you don't do this or if you. Or because
(09:45):
of it, this happened. Those are those fittin to hit
him as well. Um, also, though I couldn't I couldn't
have access to even watching TV going outside. Um, they
kept the doors locked at all times. They were always
home because their income was through disability scheme. Um, yeah.
(10:08):
And food wise, like, sometimes it would be like three,
three days. No food, no water.
S2 (10:13):
Yeah. And at that time, were you what were you
thinking about in terms of, of whether this was normal
or how you would normally be treated that time?
S3 (10:26):
That was the only form of love that I knew.
I didn't know love or caring or the value of love.
The value of care. The sense of that outside of
what I was being given at that time. So I
accepted it as it is. I did rebel sometimes, and
that did cost extra beatings, but I accepted it as
it is that you know that my parents say this
(10:47):
is how that this is how it is that this
is for me. My world was very small. That was
all I knew.
S2 (10:52):
Mhm. And the marriage that you ended up escaping from
that was quite imminent, wasn't it? It was about to happen.
So tell me about that a week away.
S3 (11:02):
That was a week away. Um, so everything was prepared
though the wedding. So we have dowry. And our dowry
is gold jewelry, like earrings, necklaces. That's given from the
man's side and some given from the woman's. The bride's
side as well. Even the wedding dress was prepared. Everything.
And in all this planning and preparation, they never asked
(11:23):
me once what I preferred. Which wedding dress, what I want,
what do I want it to look like? Even the jewelry,
even the shoes. Like nothing. At that point, I was
rebelling a lot against that marriage because I believe I
was quite old enough and I was. I was just rebelling.
I had to try to fight her off at least. Um,
I still accepted it. Yeah.
S2 (11:44):
And how how did you manage to escape that marriage?
S3 (11:49):
My mom, she gave me a in the middle. She
gave me a threat saying that if you if something
happens with this motive doesn't go through. Um, when you
have your own child, we will make that child go
through the worst. You know, we will take it away.
And that's what broke me. I didn't want I didn't
want someone for me to be going through like that.
(12:10):
It's not. That's the one. I knew that something's wrong.
S2 (12:12):
You decided that this. This had to sort of.
S3 (12:14):
Yeah. I just wanted to break it off. I didn't
want it to continue for anyone else. So I mean,
be pushed to escape.
S2 (12:21):
Yeah. And what gave you the idea to escape? What?
How did you do that?
S3 (12:26):
Um, at first I was thinking that, you know what?
Maybe I could just run off to this because all
I knew was that I didn't know anything outside the suburb.
I've never been on the train. I've never been on
a bus, never even been on a taxi. So I
was quite working with what I knew. All I knew
was the streets that I had up at the house
and just walking. Um, so the plan was for now
(12:48):
just to get up. And at that time I was
also doing teaching the Quran, Qur'an. So I wanted some
a few things for myself. And my parents said, if
you want things, you have to earn for it. So
while I was teaching, the Koran earned a bit and
through that earning, I stayed a bit of cash to
go out and rent at least like six months rent with.
So I was reaching out through my brother's friends. Hey, look.
(13:11):
Is there does anyone know a place this and that
they want to share? And then one of my old
friends from school reached out saying, yeah, she's the one
who connected me to the to my understanding, former social worker,
her friend. And through that, we started connecting to my
brother's phone to talking. And then. Yeah.
S2 (13:29):
And the at the time that this was all happening, your, um,
your parents had glued your window shut.
S3 (13:37):
Yes. They had glued monk window shut. So for a
month I was chipping that away.
S2 (13:41):
You were chipping it away. Yeah, yeah. And did you
have to do that obviously when they weren't looking and.
S3 (13:48):
No, that was the easy part. So my, my room
was around the front of the house and the rest
of the house is where they always walk around. So
the windows towards the front. So it was quite easy
enough to just chip away. For example, I would put
on the cut ends with that. So we use um
how do you say it. Recording. So the cut end
when you want to practice to align our voice with
(14:09):
the recording so as to put that up and start
chipping off.
S2 (14:12):
All right. That's very clever. Um, and the. You must
have been so scared though. To to to.
S3 (14:20):
No, not at that point when my mum said that.
That really pissed me off. I don't want this to
continue on. So that's what I was scared. But I
was also determined to just get out.
S2 (14:39):
And tell me about that night that, um, the social
worker who we we know is an artist, um, came
and to pick you up and she had also helped
out some other people as well in the area, and
she was waiting outside for you. What? What was going
through your mind when you.
S3 (15:00):
I was so scared because I believed with my parents
were in the house then, if I remember, um, they
were in the house and they were asleep, but they're
also very light sleepers. And my dad wakes up to pray, apparently. But. Yeah. Um,
so I was very scared. I was very nervous, but
Bec helped a lot and calmed me down. She talked
me through the whole thing. She she helped me to
(15:22):
breathe and that helped a lot because that was something
very new. The way she treated me then, it was
very new and I, I loved how it was helping
me actually calm down. I never felt that. I never
felt not calm, but I never felt something that would
help me calm down, like, you know, help me feel good.
That was the first thing. And that's when I knew
(15:43):
I can trust her and then read. Yeah. Um.
S2 (15:47):
And then you were sort of out in the world.
What did you do then?
S3 (15:51):
I was very lost. Um, I believe, um, sir, when
I was out in the world with first with Bec, um,
she she taught me. She's the first one who taught
me scented candles.
S2 (16:04):
Scented candles. It's a very important life lesson. It was.
S3 (16:09):
It's so nice. And then she bought me. She bought me, um,
a SIM card for my. For a phone. So I
got a secret phone through the cash that I had
through my brother. Um, she bought me my first SIM card.
Taught me how to, you know, activate it, how to
use the data, how much data I have, I have
to renew it, you know. And then she used to
cook all these amazing salmon. They have this rule in
(16:32):
the house to have someone once a week. But for
me it was I believe I was there for three days.
So I had salmon every day and it was a
beautiful meal. Her husband is a chef as well, so
it was good. Um, she taught me a bathing. She
taught me shampoo. Wow. She really helped them.
S2 (16:47):
Yeah, because you hadn't really had a bath. Much? No. No.
And then you. Eventually you found the lighthouse foundation. Yeah.
Tell me about them as an organization.
S3 (16:58):
Um, thanks to the carers, they helped a lot. The carers,
the way they are. They taught me, um. They're the
reason why they taught me the value of knowing yourself,
having your own right, having your own voice, taking care
of yourself, knowing what love actually is, what being cared
for is like. I understand that maybe they're being, you know,
(17:19):
being paid to be carers, but it was. But still,
even if they were being paid like it was like
unconditional love, what we were receiving, like there were other
victims as well. What we were receiving was unconditional love
and care, regardless of what we threw at them, the tantrums,
what we did, the fight that we had.
S2 (17:36):
Really? That's juicy. So this was in the in the
in the safe house that Lighthouse Foundation has in Melbourne. Um,
and basically you were there for how long were you
were We're therefore.
S3 (17:50):
I believe, 14 months, 14 months, give or take.
S2 (17:54):
Yeah. And you had to sort of learn a lot,
I guess.
S3 (17:57):
Like I went through the whole childhood that.
S2 (17:59):
Are your whole childhood.
S3 (18:01):
I had a phase where, um. What? So one of
the case managers, then, um, I had a phase where
I was just in bed. I wouldn't clean my room.
I wouldn't do anything.
S2 (18:09):
That sounds like your teenage years.
S3 (18:12):
She had to counter the drug. Me out of bed
all the time. Clean your room.
S2 (18:15):
Oh my goodness.
S3 (18:16):
So I went through a whole phase there.
S2 (18:18):
And what other things did you learn when you were there?
S3 (18:21):
Um, I learned how I learned music. I never knew
I loved music. That's one thing. Music calmed me. I
learned how to cook, how to properly for myself, for
people that I care about, for people that I love.
I learned how to use the train. I learned how
to use the bus. I learned what Uber is. I
learned Daniel doughnuts.
S2 (18:39):
You learned about Daniel Doughnuts.
S3 (18:41):
Oh my God. When I first got out, me and
the girls, because we were in the same sort of
situation we each had, you know, the boxes, the six,
the six boxes, the boxes are coming. Six, three nights
we had like one one box.
S2 (18:54):
A box every night. Wow.
S3 (18:57):
Yeah.
S2 (18:58):
And what did you do once you sort of learnt
all those stuff? What. What did you decide that you
wanted to do after that?
S3 (19:05):
I decided I wanted to do have a life. So
literally have a life. So I decided to start looking
for a place, which I did, and I moved out
and and I, I had a, I had a stable job,
sort of. And after that, um, I started to do
my studies in healthcare and through the healthcare studies I
(19:26):
got into, um, healthcare environment like hospitals, aged cares and
so on and so, so yeah, for now, I'm financially stable.
I've got a place that I love. I've surrounded myself
with peace and calm and just myself.
S2 (19:42):
And do you think that, um, one day you you
might get married, even though you were sort of Forced
into a marriage or about to be forced into a marriage.
Do you?
S3 (19:52):
Yeah. Because now I understand that not all men are
like that. Human beings shouldn't be that abusive or inhumane
or being or be treated like that's not normal. Now,
I know that, and I know that there are good
people out there. So yeah, I do have hope for that.
S2 (20:07):
Yeah. And what are your other dreams like? Are you.
I mean, you said we've talked when we talked before.
You said that you've actually you actually living a lot
of your dreams at the moment.
S3 (20:17):
My I never knew I would wish this because right now, like,
I'm in peace, like I have my own place. I
have the basic stuff like furnitures, bookshelves, DIY, I'm making
my own DIY, um, you know, skincare, skincare. It's really nice.
So yeah, I'm living my dream.
S2 (20:35):
And a lot of Australians don't sort of understand forced marriage.
They sometimes get it confused with arranged marriage. Um, which
is where, you know, two people might not know each other,
but they willingly consent and forced marriage involves a level
of coercion or deception. Um, what what would you say
(20:55):
to people about about forced marriage?
S3 (20:58):
So victims of forced marriages, both male and female, they
they're they're put in a position where they have to
they're they're in a state of fear. They don't know
anything else that that fear, that security. They don't have that.
Hence the why they go through with it. Um, and yes,
we we have no consent into the forced marriage. Um,
(21:21):
we are abused into that forced marriage we have and
there's and the community around um, that whole situation, they
they're even supporting that forced marriage even like they turn
a blind side to it. So those victims, they have
no choice but to do it because they don't know
anything else besides that.
S2 (21:39):
So is there a role for I mean, we talked
about this, that at various points in your experience, you know,
people didn't help or they They may have seen you
suffering but didn't help. How can people look out for
signs of forced marriage?
S3 (21:53):
Um, when a person's very obviously bruises, bruising is when
you see signs of abuse on the body, like bruises
or cuts, constant cuts or, um, for example, like of
one of the personal examples when my father, when he
was making my bank accounts, which I didn't know it was, um,
when I went to the banks in front of my father,
they were asking like, oh, are we taking your consent to, um,
(22:18):
create a bank account in front of him? So I
couldn't say no to that because so maybe a bit
more awareness that a bit more security, a bit more
smarter way of dealing with situations like that, like taking
it to another room that you need and then talking. Yeah.
S2 (22:32):
To be able to say away from him, to give it,
to give an indication that you're in that situation.
S3 (22:38):
So having that space to be allowed to give the
indication that I'm in trouble and need help.
S2 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah. Um, and what would you say to anybody
that's actually in this situation or about to be like
you were in this situation? It takes an enormous amount
of bravery to do what you did.
S3 (22:55):
It also takes a lot of strength to stay like
to be in that situation, like, you know, to live
and grow up into that environment. It's just focusing that
bravery and strength into escape, into this leaving to know,
because most people that I've met, like people that are
in similar situations, they they're so afraid of change. They're
(23:15):
so afraid of not of, um, they keep going back.
Some people go back to the abuse because that's the
only thing they know. That's the only form of love
they know. They're so scared of anything else beyond that.
So have the strength to look beyond that.
S2 (23:31):
I say when I wrote the piece, I say that,
you know, the upside of of leaving is this freedom
that you have. You know, the freedom that you have
to have your flat and to choose how you want
to want it to be and to just go outside,
you know, to to choose a course to study and
to to choose a job and all of those things.
But the downside is that you've got you've left your family.
(23:55):
Do you miss your family?
S3 (23:56):
I miss my brother.
S2 (23:58):
Yeah.
S3 (23:58):
Not my parents.
S2 (23:59):
Not your parents. Okay. But your brother.
S3 (24:02):
Yeah. I miss him a lot. Because, um, for some
of us, um, for some of us victims, we're giving,
we're given everything. We're given the education. We're given the
freedom to go wherever we want to do whatever we
want to study, whatever we want. But when it comes
to marriage, that's when they force. And they, for example,
for my brother, they will give him everything, and they'll
(24:22):
use that to guilt him into the marriage, if that
makes sense. Yeah. So, like, they'll make him feel as
if he owes them that.
S2 (24:28):
So he's under pressure to make sure that there's honour
in the family. It's a situation of honour. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, Miriam,
thank you so much for coming in today and being
brave enough to tell your story again to us today.
S3 (24:44):
Well, thank you for having me.
S1 (24:48):
That was forced marriage survivor Miriam with good weekend senior
writer Melissa Fyfe on the latest good weekend talks. If
you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and
comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in
for more compelling conversations coming soon. We talk about architecture
with Professor Anthony Burke of ABC TV's Grand Designs transformations.
(25:12):
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by Konrad Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery, with technical
assistance from Josh towers. Tammy Mills is our executive producer,
(25:34):
Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Greg Callahan is
the acting editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:30):
stories of the day. In this episode, we bring you
the remarkable story of Miriam, a survivor of forced marriage.
Often confused with arranged marriage. Forced marriage means one person
is not giving their full consent, sometimes due to coercion, deception, incapacitation,
or threats. Each year, the Australian Federal Police deal with
(00:52):
about 90 cases, although this is thought to represent a
fraction of the problem which was made a crime in
Australia in 2013. This week's cover story, This Ends With me,
is about the scourge of forced marriage faced by people
such as Miriam. In 2019, in Melbourne's northern suburbs, an
artist stumbled upon a group of women, including Miriam, who
(01:15):
were about to be married against their will. This artist,
who will call Beck, helped the young women escape from
their family homes, often in the dead of night. In
the month before Miriam's escape, she chipped away at the
glue her parents had used to seal her window, and
finally gained the courage to jump out that window and
run away. Just one week before her planned wedding to
(01:37):
a man she did not know. In today's episode, we
have changed Miriam's name, omitted some details, and also used
AI technology to disguise her voice and protect her identity.
In this difficult conversation about the long form story, you
can read in the pages of our magazine by Good
Weekend Senior writer Melissa Fyfe.
S2 (01:57):
Thanks, Konrad, and welcome, Miriam.
S3 (02:00):
Thank you.
S2 (02:01):
So let's start at the beginning of your story. You
came out to Australia as a as a young girl.
S3 (02:08):
Yeah.
S2 (02:08):
You were living in Asia and you came out with
your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about
what they were like and what your childhood was like?
S3 (02:17):
My parents were quite extreme religious extremist when it came
to religion. Um, they were also very restrictive in what
we can do, what we can't do or what we
can say, what we can't say in the house. Um, so,
for example, like, um, when it comes to food, like
when it comes to cooking, the father is the man
(02:38):
of the house. He needs to eat first before anyone else.
And later on, if we wanted to eat, we couldn't sometimes.
S2 (02:45):
Why was that?
S3 (02:47):
It was, um, our way of giving respect to the
men of the house to like that. Like only he
can eat what he wants. But for us, we can't
always eat. We can only eat when he wants us
to eat and choose his punishment as well.
S2 (03:02):
And what was your childhood like? You came out to Australia.
Did you go to school?
S3 (03:07):
Uh, no. So when I came to Australia, I didn't
go to school. I wasn't homeschooled as well. I was
just growing up. And then when it came to my puberty, um,
I started they started putting me into Islamic studies, you know,
to memorize the Quran. Um, because that was a very
high status in our society. So they wanted that, um,
(03:29):
for the family status. So that was it. And I
only went to school doing BC. So from grade ten.
S2 (03:36):
Right. And so in the time that you were at
home and not in school, you were learning the Quran,
which as you say, you memorize the whole the whole thing. Yep.
And that was a very prized skill.
S3 (03:50):
Yeah. Very prized skill.
S2 (03:52):
And why do you think your parents decided to, um,
encourage you to do that?
S3 (03:56):
Um, because When one a girl hits her puberty, they
start getting marriage proposals, marriage prospects, and a lot of
them were falling when they came from. Like they weren't
going through with the marriage. So one of the advice
I was given was because I wasn't educated. So my
parents took it as not educated as in the religious wise.
(04:17):
That's why they put me down that path of memorizing
the Quran.
S2 (04:20):
And so when the first man was introduced to you,
when you were, how old were you then?
S3 (04:25):
I was 12.
S2 (04:26):
12. What did you think? Like what? What? And what
was it? How was it put to you that you
were to marry this person?
S3 (04:33):
I was angry and confused and the man was very
old as well. So the feeling I got was very slimy,
like a slimy character. Yeah. And I was angry as well.
And because of that anger, my parents, of course, um,
beat me for it. Because I wasn't supposed to be
showing anger. I supposed to be compliant, but I wasn't.
And the more I rebelled against the marriage marriage proposals,
(04:54):
the more restrictive they kept me in the home.
S2 (04:58):
Did you understand this to be a normal thing that
you were given, that you were supposed to marry a man,
or be or be engaged? Or, I guess, to a
man when you were so young?
S3 (05:09):
Yeah. For us, it was a norm for us girls
and boys. It was a very normal thing to be
married as soon as you hit puberty.
S2 (05:16):
And we're talking there about an Islamic marriage, obviously, because
an Australian marriage wouldn't be legal at even islamically.
S3 (05:22):
It's actually not legal to be married under aged. So
they are just twisting religious beliefs into cultural, um, goals
and perspective, which is not right, just what they did.
S2 (05:33):
And because you knew the Quran so well, you knew
that this wasn't.
S3 (05:38):
Yeah, that was later on. Like as I started to
go in depth into the Quran, I started to realize
that this is not right. Like everything that we were
being taught, um, was not right. That that was being
implemented on us on a day to day life was
not right.
S2 (05:51):
Yeah. And sometimes you got to because when you were
learning the Quran, you got to sneak to sneak some
a peek at the English translations. So you sort of
could tell also that the things that you were being
taught at school didn't quite match up to what your
faith was. Yeah. And what were the things that you
were being taught at school?
S3 (06:10):
For example, um, women should not have a voice. They
should not dream of having a career. Um, they have
no self, right? They have no say in anything. That's
that's what we were taught. And that what we were
told from our men in the house is what we
have to listen to. Um, we were subjected to not
even looking after our basic self, not even personal hygiene.
(06:32):
That was a big thing. But even that we had
to neglect that. Like we were taught to neglect our
personal hygiene, our self-care, mental wellness, all that.
S2 (06:42):
And what was your education like when you finally got
to go to school, which is sort of extremely late?
You tend for most people. What was it like?
S3 (06:52):
Um, of course I was so scared. But it was
fun because the teachers helped a lot when it came
to education, like maths and English. Um. Because of me,
my mum was in the Quran. That helped with my
memory and being able to adapt and catch on to things,
to learn things. And also the English translation of Quran
helped with my comprehension with English. So with English I
(07:14):
was good with maths. Oh my God, it was a
nightmare and I couldn't. I couldn't come at home and
do homework.
S2 (07:21):
Why not?
S3 (07:22):
They would. My parents would not allow it. They're saying
home is just for home chores, no studies. And if
you fail in class, that's your problem. And of course
we do get punished for it. So their thing was
that we had to finish homework at school and we
could even ask for help, um, when it came to
classwork or like, you know, equations, for example, or poetry
(07:42):
writing or storytelling.
S2 (07:44):
And what about the school? Did it encourage you to, um,
have a career or was it was it was there
equal opportunities with the boys and the girls.
S3 (07:56):
So there was no equal opportunity with the boys and girls.
The boys and girls were separated from grade four in
all Islamic schools. Um, and the boys get to go
on as sports competitions from inter-school sports competitions, camping, all
sorts of adventures for them. Whereas the girls were not
like that. We are, we don't. We don't even play sports.
(08:18):
We don't even do the basics athletics. You know, for
some schools they will have jogging in the morning or
like a little PE. We don't even have that. Our
basic PE was literally just in the gym. So in
the building just doing one lap and that's it. And
just being tutored on we were tutored on how to
play the sports, like for example, soccer, football, volleyball. But
(08:38):
we weren't able to play it. We weren't allowed to
play it.
S2 (08:41):
So you knew how to play it technically, but you
didn't get to play it.
S3 (08:45):
But I believe we were taught how to play it
because of the test that we were given. So because
it was a compulsory subject then? Yeah. So we had
for that. I'm pretty sure they took out the scores
from there instead of us getting the scores from playing.
S2 (08:58):
Yeah. So you had this, um, first man that was
introduced when you were 12, and then how many came
after that?
S3 (09:06):
Um, first it was 12 and then one was 15,
and the last one was 18. And the final one was, um,
but before I escaped.
S2 (09:17):
And they, for whatever reason, kept falling through. What was
the consequence of that for you at home?
S3 (09:25):
Um, the consequence. My parents blamed me for the marriage
proposals falling through. And the more it fell through, the more, um,
they they bashed me, and sometimes they bashed, like, you know,
the parent. I have a little brother as well. They
they they used him to keep me in control. Like,
if you don't do this or if you. Or because
(09:45):
of it, this happened. Those are those fittin to hit
him as well. Um, also, though I couldn't I couldn't
have access to even watching TV going outside. Um, they
kept the doors locked at all times. They were always
home because their income was through disability scheme. Um, yeah.
(10:08):
And food wise, like, sometimes it would be like three,
three days. No food, no water.
S2 (10:13):
Yeah. And at that time, were you what were you
thinking about in terms of, of whether this was normal
or how you would normally be treated that time?
S3 (10:26):
That was the only form of love that I knew.
I didn't know love or caring or the value of love.
The value of care. The sense of that outside of
what I was being given at that time. So I
accepted it as it is. I did rebel sometimes, and
that did cost extra beatings, but I accepted it as
it is that you know that my parents say this
(10:47):
is how that this is how it is that this
is for me. My world was very small. That was
all I knew.
S2 (10:52):
Mhm. And the marriage that you ended up escaping from
that was quite imminent, wasn't it? It was about to happen.
So tell me about that a week away.
S3 (11:02):
That was a week away. Um, so everything was prepared
though the wedding. So we have dowry. And our dowry
is gold jewelry, like earrings, necklaces. That's given from the
man's side and some given from the woman's. The bride's
side as well. Even the wedding dress was prepared. Everything.
And in all this planning and preparation, they never asked
(11:23):
me once what I preferred. Which wedding dress, what I want,
what do I want it to look like? Even the jewelry,
even the shoes. Like nothing. At that point, I was
rebelling a lot against that marriage because I believe I
was quite old enough and I was. I was just rebelling.
I had to try to fight her off at least. Um,
I still accepted it. Yeah.
S2 (11:44):
And how how did you manage to escape that marriage?
S3 (11:49):
My mom, she gave me a in the middle. She
gave me a threat saying that if you if something
happens with this motive doesn't go through. Um, when you
have your own child, we will make that child go
through the worst. You know, we will take it away.
And that's what broke me. I didn't want I didn't
want someone for me to be going through like that.
(12:10):
It's not. That's the one. I knew that something's wrong.
S2 (12:12):
You decided that this. This had to sort of.
S3 (12:14):
Yeah. I just wanted to break it off. I didn't
want it to continue for anyone else. So I mean,
be pushed to escape.
S2 (12:21):
Yeah. And what gave you the idea to escape? What?
How did you do that?
S3 (12:26):
Um, at first I was thinking that, you know what?
Maybe I could just run off to this because all
I knew was that I didn't know anything outside the suburb.
I've never been on the train. I've never been on
a bus, never even been on a taxi. So I
was quite working with what I knew. All I knew
was the streets that I had up at the house
and just walking. Um, so the plan was for now
(12:48):
just to get up. And at that time I was
also doing teaching the Quran, Qur'an. So I wanted some
a few things for myself. And my parents said, if
you want things, you have to earn for it. So
while I was teaching, the Koran earned a bit and
through that earning, I stayed a bit of cash to
go out and rent at least like six months rent with.
So I was reaching out through my brother's friends. Hey, look.
(13:11):
Is there does anyone know a place this and that
they want to share? And then one of my old
friends from school reached out saying, yeah, she's the one
who connected me to the to my understanding, former social worker,
her friend. And through that, we started connecting to my
brother's phone to talking. And then. Yeah.
S2 (13:29):
And the at the time that this was all happening, your, um,
your parents had glued your window shut.
S3 (13:37):
Yes. They had glued monk window shut. So for a
month I was chipping that away.
S2 (13:41):
You were chipping it away. Yeah, yeah. And did you
have to do that obviously when they weren't looking and.
S3 (13:48):
No, that was the easy part. So my, my room
was around the front of the house and the rest
of the house is where they always walk around. So
the windows towards the front. So it was quite easy
enough to just chip away. For example, I would put
on the cut ends with that. So we use um
how do you say it. Recording. So the cut end
when you want to practice to align our voice with
(14:09):
the recording so as to put that up and start
chipping off.
S2 (14:12):
All right. That's very clever. Um, and the. You must
have been so scared though. To to to.
S3 (14:20):
No, not at that point when my mum said that.
That really pissed me off. I don't want this to
continue on. So that's what I was scared. But I
was also determined to just get out.
S2 (14:39):
And tell me about that night that, um, the social
worker who we we know is an artist, um, came
and to pick you up and she had also helped
out some other people as well in the area, and
she was waiting outside for you. What? What was going
through your mind when you.
S3 (15:00):
I was so scared because I believed with my parents
were in the house then, if I remember, um, they
were in the house and they were asleep, but they're
also very light sleepers. And my dad wakes up to pray, apparently. But. Yeah. Um,
so I was very scared. I was very nervous, but
Bec helped a lot and calmed me down. She talked
me through the whole thing. She she helped me to
(15:22):
breathe and that helped a lot because that was something
very new. The way she treated me then, it was
very new and I, I loved how it was helping
me actually calm down. I never felt that. I never
felt not calm, but I never felt something that would
help me calm down, like, you know, help me feel good.
That was the first thing. And that's when I knew
(15:43):
I can trust her and then read. Yeah. Um.
S2 (15:47):
And then you were sort of out in the world.
What did you do then?
S3 (15:51):
I was very lost. Um, I believe, um, sir, when
I was out in the world with first with Bec, um,
she she taught me. She's the first one who taught
me scented candles.
S2 (16:04):
Scented candles. It's a very important life lesson. It was.
S3 (16:09):
It's so nice. And then she bought me. She bought me, um,
a SIM card for my. For a phone. So I
got a secret phone through the cash that I had
through my brother. Um, she bought me my first SIM card.
Taught me how to, you know, activate it, how to
use the data, how much data I have, I have
to renew it, you know. And then she used to
cook all these amazing salmon. They have this rule in
(16:32):
the house to have someone once a week. But for
me it was I believe I was there for three days.
So I had salmon every day and it was a
beautiful meal. Her husband is a chef as well, so
it was good. Um, she taught me a bathing. She
taught me shampoo. Wow. She really helped them.
S2 (16:47):
Yeah, because you hadn't really had a bath. Much? No. No.
And then you. Eventually you found the lighthouse foundation. Yeah.
Tell me about them as an organization.
S3 (16:58):
Um, thanks to the carers, they helped a lot. The carers,
the way they are. They taught me, um. They're the
reason why they taught me the value of knowing yourself,
having your own right, having your own voice, taking care
of yourself, knowing what love actually is, what being cared
for is like. I understand that maybe they're being, you know,
(17:19):
being paid to be carers, but it was. But still,
even if they were being paid like it was like
unconditional love, what we were receiving, like there were other
victims as well. What we were receiving was unconditional love
and care, regardless of what we threw at them, the tantrums,
what we did, the fight that we had.
S2 (17:36):
Really? That's juicy. So this was in the in the
in the safe house that Lighthouse Foundation has in Melbourne. Um,
and basically you were there for how long were you
were We're therefore.
S3 (17:50):
I believe, 14 months, 14 months, give or take.
S2 (17:54):
Yeah. And you had to sort of learn a lot,
I guess.
S3 (17:57):
Like I went through the whole childhood that.
S2 (17:59):
Are your whole childhood.
S3 (18:01):
I had a phase where, um. What? So one of
the case managers, then, um, I had a phase where
I was just in bed. I wouldn't clean my room.
I wouldn't do anything.
S2 (18:09):
That sounds like your teenage years.
S3 (18:12):
She had to counter the drug. Me out of bed
all the time. Clean your room.
S2 (18:15):
Oh my goodness.
S3 (18:16):
So I went through a whole phase there.
S2 (18:18):
And what other things did you learn when you were there?
S3 (18:21):
Um, I learned how I learned music. I never knew
I loved music. That's one thing. Music calmed me. I
learned how to cook, how to properly for myself, for
people that I care about, for people that I love.
I learned how to use the train. I learned how
to use the bus. I learned what Uber is. I
learned Daniel doughnuts.
S2 (18:39):
You learned about Daniel Doughnuts.
S3 (18:41):
Oh my God. When I first got out, me and
the girls, because we were in the same sort of
situation we each had, you know, the boxes, the six,
the six boxes, the boxes are coming. Six, three nights
we had like one one box.
S2 (18:54):
A box every night. Wow.
S3 (18:57):
Yeah.
S2 (18:58):
And what did you do once you sort of learnt
all those stuff? What. What did you decide that you
wanted to do after that?
S3 (19:05):
I decided I wanted to do have a life. So
literally have a life. So I decided to start looking
for a place, which I did, and I moved out
and and I, I had a, I had a stable job,
sort of. And after that, um, I started to do
my studies in healthcare and through the healthcare studies I
(19:26):
got into, um, healthcare environment like hospitals, aged cares and
so on and so, so yeah, for now, I'm financially stable.
I've got a place that I love. I've surrounded myself
with peace and calm and just myself.
S2 (19:42):
And do you think that, um, one day you you
might get married, even though you were sort of Forced
into a marriage or about to be forced into a marriage.
Do you?
S3 (19:52):
Yeah. Because now I understand that not all men are
like that. Human beings shouldn't be that abusive or inhumane
or being or be treated like that's not normal. Now,
I know that, and I know that there are good
people out there. So yeah, I do have hope for that.
S2 (20:07):
Yeah. And what are your other dreams like? Are you.
I mean, you said we've talked when we talked before.
You said that you've actually you actually living a lot
of your dreams at the moment.
S3 (20:17):
My I never knew I would wish this because right now, like,
I'm in peace, like I have my own place. I
have the basic stuff like furnitures, bookshelves, DIY, I'm making
my own DIY, um, you know, skincare, skincare. It's really nice.
So yeah, I'm living my dream.
S2 (20:35):
And a lot of Australians don't sort of understand forced marriage.
They sometimes get it confused with arranged marriage. Um, which
is where, you know, two people might not know each other,
but they willingly consent and forced marriage involves a level
of coercion or deception. Um, what what would you say
(20:55):
to people about about forced marriage?
S3 (20:58):
So victims of forced marriages, both male and female, they
they're they're put in a position where they have to
they're they're in a state of fear. They don't know
anything else that that fear, that security. They don't have that.
Hence the why they go through with it. Um, and yes,
we we have no consent into the forced marriage. Um,
(21:21):
we are abused into that forced marriage we have and
there's and the community around um, that whole situation, they
they're even supporting that forced marriage even like they turn
a blind side to it. So those victims, they have
no choice but to do it because they don't know
anything else besides that.
S2 (21:39):
So is there a role for I mean, we talked
about this, that at various points in your experience, you know,
people didn't help or they They may have seen you
suffering but didn't help. How can people look out for
signs of forced marriage?
S3 (21:53):
Um, when a person's very obviously bruises, bruising is when
you see signs of abuse on the body, like bruises
or cuts, constant cuts or, um, for example, like of
one of the personal examples when my father, when he
was making my bank accounts, which I didn't know it was, um,
when I went to the banks in front of my father,
they were asking like, oh, are we taking your consent to, um,
(22:18):
create a bank account in front of him? So I
couldn't say no to that because so maybe a bit
more awareness that a bit more security, a bit more
smarter way of dealing with situations like that, like taking
it to another room that you need and then talking. Yeah.
S2 (22:32):
To be able to say away from him, to give it,
to give an indication that you're in that situation.
S3 (22:38):
So having that space to be allowed to give the
indication that I'm in trouble and need help.
S2 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah. Um, and what would you say to anybody
that's actually in this situation or about to be like
you were in this situation? It takes an enormous amount
of bravery to do what you did.
S3 (22:55):
It also takes a lot of strength to stay like
to be in that situation, like, you know, to live
and grow up into that environment. It's just focusing that
bravery and strength into escape, into this leaving to know,
because most people that I've met, like people that are
in similar situations, they they're so afraid of change. They're
(23:15):
so afraid of not of, um, they keep going back.
Some people go back to the abuse because that's the
only thing they know. That's the only form of love
they know. They're so scared of anything else beyond that.
So have the strength to look beyond that.
S2 (23:31):
I say when I wrote the piece, I say that,
you know, the upside of of leaving is this freedom
that you have. You know, the freedom that you have
to have your flat and to choose how you want
to want it to be and to just go outside,
you know, to to choose a course to study and
to to choose a job and all of those things.
But the downside is that you've got you've left your family.
(23:55):
Do you miss your family?
S3 (23:56):
I miss my brother.
S2 (23:58):
Yeah.
S3 (23:58):
Not my parents.
S2 (23:59):
Not your parents. Okay. But your brother.
S3 (24:02):
Yeah. I miss him a lot. Because, um, for some
of us, um, for some of us victims, we're giving,
we're given everything. We're given the education. We're given the
freedom to go wherever we want to do whatever we
want to study, whatever we want. But when it comes
to marriage, that's when they force. And they, for example,
for my brother, they will give him everything, and they'll
(24:22):
use that to guilt him into the marriage, if that
makes sense. Yeah. So, like, they'll make him feel as
if he owes them that.
S2 (24:28):
So he's under pressure to make sure that there's honour
in the family. It's a situation of honour. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, Miriam,
thank you so much for coming in today and being
brave enough to tell your story again to us today.
S3 (24:44):
Well, thank you for having me.
S1 (24:48):
That was forced marriage survivor Miriam with good weekend senior
writer Melissa Fyfe on the latest good weekend talks. If
you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and
comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in
for more compelling conversations coming soon. We talk about architecture
with Professor Anthony Burke of ABC TV's Grand Designs transformations.
(25:12):
Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney
Morning Herald and The Age proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions
to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or
The Age? This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced
by Konrad Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery, with technical
assistance from Josh towers. Tammy Mills is our executive producer,
(25:34):
Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Greg Callahan is
the acting editor of Good Weekend.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.