May 2, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, we talk to Rutger Bregman. You might remember the Dutch historian and author from a 2019 appearance at the World Economic Forum in Davos, which went viral after he called out millionaires and billionaires for tax avoidance. He joins us to talk about everything from the loss of America's moral authority after the re-election of Donald Trump, to why we need more ordinary people speaking up and defending principles of human decency. This week's Good Weekend features an extract from Bregman’s new book, Moral Ambition, examining our monstrous and long-running cruelty to animals. Hosting the conversation – which also delves into the corrosiveness of misogynistic male influencers, as well as the role of “realistic idealism” in improving our society's moral trajectory – is Good Weekend acting editor Greg Callaghan.
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S1 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:32):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Rutger Bregman. You might remember the Dutch historian and author
from a 2019 appearance at the World Economic Forum in Davos,
which went viral after he called out the many millionaires
and billionaires there for tax avoidance. He joins us today, however,
to talk about everything from the loss of America's moral
authority after the election of Donald Trump, to why we
(00:55):
need more ordinary people speaking up and defending principles of
human decency. The magazine this week features an extract from
Bregman's new book, Moral Ambition, examining our monstrous and long
running cruelty to animals, and hosting our conversation this week,
which delves into the corrosiveness of misogynistic male influences to
(01:15):
the role of realistic idealism in improving the moral trajectory
of our society, is good weekend acting editor Greg Callahan.
S2 (01:24):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Rutger.
S3 (01:27):
Thanks for having me. Great to be with you.
S2 (01:29):
Now, in your book, Moral Ambition, you you basically say
the most people waste their lives or they don't reach
their full potential, and they could be doing things to
make life better for all of us. What do you
actually mean by that?
S3 (01:42):
Well, maybe not most people, Greg, but a lot of people. Um,
so there's one study that was done by a couple
of economists a couple of years ago, and that study
found after, you know, interviewing 100,000 people in more than
40 countries, that around 25% of people in those countries
think that their own job is socially useless. So it's
(02:05):
not me saying it, it's people themselves saying it about
their own jobs. And that seems like an enormous waste
of talent.
S2 (02:11):
When you use the word useless, when people say their
their work is useless, does that actually mean that they
don't find the work satisfying, or that they think the
job itself is is pointless?
S3 (02:27):
So I think it means that they could go on
strike and it wouldn't matter all that much. So during
the pandemic, we discovered this whole category of jobs called
the essential jobs. You know, the teachers, the nurses, the
care workers, you name it. Well, if they go on strike,
that's a that's a pretty big problem. Um, but if, say,
all the marketeers go on strike or, you know, a
(02:48):
lot of corporate lawyers go on strike or bankers go
on strike. Well, I'm a historian, and I once asked
myself this question has there ever been a strike of
bankers throughout history. Turns out there was only 1 in 1970,
in Ireland, and that strike lasted for six months. And
after six months, the bankers came back and said, all right,
all right, all right, we'll get back to work because
nothing really happened. The economy just kept growing. I'm not
(03:11):
saying that like all finance is socially useless. Obviously not.
But it is like a risk category, right? If you
start interviewing people, then quite often if they're like what
a friend of mine calls the Bermuda Triangle of talent.
So you've got consultancy, you've got corporate law and you've
got finance, uh, you know, sucking up so many of
our best and brightest. Um, yeah, a lot of those
(03:32):
people think that their job doesn't contribute much to society.
S2 (03:35):
Yeah. So a lot of us do labour away at
jobs that don't necessarily contribute much to society. But then
some people are happy doing that because they're earning lots
of money for argument's sake. Um, not everyone has the
kind of desire to improve the lot of humanity. They're
just pretty much, um, the sort of people that probably
(03:57):
don't see much beyond the end of their own nose, really.
They've got their own lives, and that's how they they think, um, sure.
Aren't you aren't you up against that kind of, um,
basic human narcissism when when you talk about, you know,
making the world a bit a better place?
S3 (04:15):
Well, look, it's a free country, so people always have
the right to be boring, right? People have the right
to live a predictable life. So if someone goes to
a top university, I don't know, to Oxford or to
Harvard or whatever, and they really desperately want to go
to Wall Street, make a lot of money and not
really make a positive impact whatsoever. You know, they're free
(04:37):
to do. So. Um, I wrote this book for people
who are yearning for something more, who want to build
a legacy that actually matters. Um, I studied the great
pioneers of the past, the abolitionists, the suffragettes. And I
discovered that these people often had the idealism of an activist,
but also the ambition of an entrepreneur. So this book
is basically is basically a call to arms for people who, yeah,
(05:01):
do have that hole in their soul who are like,
you know, I could do so much more. But here
I am, stuck in this cubicle. Uh, how do I
get out? And, uh, yeah, that's what the book is about.
S2 (05:12):
And you give some pretty stunning examples of, uh, people
who have basically, um, for lack of a better expression,
put stuck their necks out. You mentioned Rosa Parks, the
black woman sitting on the bus back in, um, 1955,
in Alabama, who refused to give up her seat for
a white person. She became a symbol of the civil
(05:33):
rights movement, of course. But, um, as you point out
in your book, she kind of had a history. She
was an activist before that kind of huge, um, turning point,
wasn't she?
S3 (05:44):
Absolutely. So everyone knows this story, or at least everyone
thinks they know about this story. You know, a very
brave woman refuses to stand up, um, for a white
woman who wants to take her place. And then in
that way, a whole movement gets started. The famous Montgomery
bus boycott. Well, a lot of people don't know is
(06:04):
that actually there was the so-called Women's Political Council that
was planning this bus boycott for many months, but they
were just waiting for the right moment. And there were many,
many women before Rosa Parks who were also arrested. So,
for example, a couple of months earlier, a young woman
named Claudette Colvin, um, was thrown out of the bus
because she didn't want to give up her seat. And
(06:26):
in that sense, Rosa Parks wasn't that special. But this
political action group was so strategic that were just they
were just waiting for the right symbol, you know, the
right mascot of their whole movement. And Rosa Parks turned
out to be, uh, you know, a really brilliant activist
as well. She had actually, um, done quite a bit
of training in a school in Tennessee for, for activists.
(06:47):
So it's really interesting. People think that, oh, these kind
of things happen spontaneously. No, to the contrary, these this
was a movement that, yeah, in my view, was very
morally ambitious. They saw winning as their moral duty. You know,
there were not like the modern day activists, you know,
shouting kill the patriarchy or tax the rich or defund
the police or whatever. Uh, on Instagram. Uh, no. These
(07:09):
people knew how to get shit done. You know how
to build an actual movement, how to get a law
through Parliament. And, uh, yeah, I admire that a lot.
And I think we can learn a lot from them.
S2 (07:20):
I think we can, too. I think the people who
do take this kind of stand by nature, um, very,
very brave people. You also mentioned, um, the man in
a large crowd of thousands of people giving a Nazi salute.
He's the one person in a very famous photograph who
has his arms folded. Um, resistance to the Nazi salute.
(07:45):
You found out some interesting details behind that photo.
S3 (07:48):
Yeah, absolutely. So this is a very famous photo. Like
everyone listening, will. If they look it up, they will
immediately recognize it. Indeed. It's a it's at a shipyard.
Adolf Hitler was coming there, and there's a huge crowd indeed,
all giving the Nazi salute. And here's this one guy
who's basically standing, you know, with his arms folded, saying,
like or giving this impression like, I don't do this. And,
(08:11):
you know, when it was discovered in the 90s, um, uh, yeah,
it caused a big stir. And it's still every now
and then it goes viral, usually with the message be
that guy. I really delved into the history of of
this man and realized that actually, this was just it. Like,
he didn't get much done apart from that. Uh, I mean,
(08:33):
he still worked at that shipyard producing for the war machine.
He in no way joined the resistance or anything like that.
I mean, he didn't really have a substantial positive impact
for others. So, uh, this is what I in the
book describe as the noble loser, right? This is what
(08:53):
you see a lot among progressives. And, you know, among
some of my friends on the left, you know, they
they lose the elections again. And then they say, well,
but at least we stood on the right side of history, right?
At least we had the right opinions. And it's that
kind of purist attitude that is, I think, fundamentally morally unserious. So, look,
(09:15):
we can still deeply admire the courage of someone like that.
But we got to keep in mind that in the
end it's about actually achieving results.
S2 (09:22):
So where would you put that soul man in Tiananmen
Square in 1989, facing the tanks that was part of
the Chinese Communist Party. Where would you place him? Because
that was an extraordinary act of bravery.
S3 (09:40):
Oh, absolutely. Incredibly brave. Um, and look, don't get me wrong. Like,
protest movements have been utterly essential throughout history, and I
think we desperately need one in the US right now.
I mean, I moved to the US in September of
last year. You know, on an immigrant visa. And I'm like, okay, well, uh, it's, uh,
(10:03):
it's a situation where we could definitely use some people
in the streets to protest against the decline of democracy. So, um,
I'm really only making the point that, um, we got
to look at these things, like tools in a toolbox. Um,
and we should resist falling in love with our own methods. So, yes,
(10:24):
sometimes we need radical climate activists occupying squares, you know,
to put pressure on politicians. But then sometimes we need
really smart lobbyists who deeply understand how a law gets
through Parliament, you know, and how to push the right buttons,
who or who really know where the money goes. Or
sometimes we need entrepreneurs who build amazing companies, you know,
(10:47):
who actually know how to create all kinds of innovations
in sustainable energy or sustainable proteins or whatever. It's, uh,
it just depends. Um, and that's what moral ambition is about,
is thinking really hard about what is necessary right now
and how you can make the biggest possible impact.
S2 (11:03):
It's also about having very sound values and being, um,
generous of spirit to. I'm thinking of Jonas Salk, who, um,
who refused to patent his polio vaccine back in 1955.
In today's money, he gave up $7 billion but saved
thousands of lives or thousands of children's lives, saving them
(11:27):
from disability and and premature death. Um, yeah. That that
kind of generosity of spirit. You could argue we don't
see that so much these days.
S3 (11:37):
Well, look, I'm not the kind of historian who will
who will tell you, oh, everything used to be better. Because,
you know, once you really dive into the history, things
were pretty bad in the past as well. look, there's
there's one reason why I wanted to devote a whole
chapter in the book to the power of technology and
(11:57):
positive innovations, because these days we often have a pretty
dark vision of what tech can do, right? When I
say the word technology tech, we think of billionaires who
shoot themselves up in space, you know, and who don't
pay their fair share in taxes. Or we think of
Elon Musk and his chainsaw. Um, well, that is that
is certainly one, uh, side of the coin, but there's
(12:20):
another side as well. I mean, the big progress we've
made as a species in the last 200 years, um,
the fact that we have so much wealth that we
can also redistribute more fairly is, is is very much
so because we made incredible technological progress and indeed the
triumph of vaccines here. Uh, I mean, it's just like
(12:41):
we should have, like a national celebration every year. Polio,
if you look into that history, it is so shocking.
People that were super scared. I mean, I have young kids, um,
our youngest is four months old. Our oldest is four years, uh,
three years old. And just just imagine living with the
constant terror of that. Your kid might get polio, you know,
(13:03):
and and and how horrible that will be. That was
just daily reality for people in the 50s. They were
scared of two things of the atomic bomb and of polio.
And then along comes Jonas Salk, you know, and a
brilliant technological innovation works on it for years with a
with a brilliant team. And I, I read the eyewitness
reports of how people responded back then, you know, in
(13:24):
the 50s when it was announced that Jonas Salk had
invented the polio vaccine. You know what they did? They
went out in the streets, they started singing, they started celebrating.
You know, it was it was very moving to read
about that. Um, and uh, anyway, that sometimes makes. Yeah.
If you don't think about today, like, what did we
do when the Covid vaccine was announced? Um, yeah. We
(13:47):
can learn from From our. Yeah. From the people in
the past.
S2 (13:51):
And now we have, um, RFK in America trying to
wind back, um, you know, vaccine technology. Now you're in
the US. You just said it. Living there at the moment, um,
it appears that the country since, um, Trump's victory appears
to have taken a turn for the worse. And it's
(14:12):
not even an issue of left or right politics anymore.
It's basically boiling down to what's right or wrong. Um,
you know, empathy appears to have become unfashionable under the
Trump administration. Morality appears to have become unfashionable. Would that
be a fair statement?
S3 (14:31):
Absolutely, 100%. So the Republican Party is in a state
of complete moral collapse. Um, it is now being ruled by, well,
in the best case, by, by cranks and crazy people,
but in the worst case by just downright evil people
are incredibly selfish people. Um, it's, uh, it's really shocking
(14:53):
to see. And honestly, it's also worse than I expected. Um,
if you just see the incredible amount of just the
economic damage that's being done or the betrayal of, you know,
decades old allies, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's deeply depressing. Uh,
(15:13):
I think there's now a very real chance that there
will be an authoritarian breakthrough, um, in the US in
the next couple of years. Um, so, yeah, that's that's
what sociologists call democratic backsliding, where you just gradually move
towards a system that can't really be called a democracy anymore. Uh,
and yeah, there are already substantial steps being taken in
(15:37):
that direction. So, yeah, it's a it's a story. I
don't have happy news there. It's a scary world we
live in.
S2 (15:42):
Indeed it is. It's it's particularly telling that the Republican
congressmen and senators who previously many of whom were so
critical of Donald Trump's behavior and saying he was bad
for America and potentially would be an authoritarian leader, are
now backing him, and they're watching their own democracy erode
(16:06):
and the country's standing in the world erode as well.
I mean, what does that say about these people? What
does it say about human behavior being so, so grossly self-interested,
them putting themselves their own self-interest above their country?
S3 (16:24):
And I would say they're not even doing that because
they'll go down in the end as well. So they're
just incredible, incredible cowards. That's true for Republicans in Congress.
It's also true for many, many business leaders in the US.
I mean, I was just reading about the richest law
firms here in the US who just refused to sign
a letter to even support, you know, their colleagues who
(16:47):
are currently being targeted by the Trump administration, uh, because they, uh,
you know, were involved in, uh, the lawsuits against Trump, uh,
under the Biden administration. So, yeah, it's just deeply depressing,
I guess where I find some hope is, is is again,
in history because we know that it doesn't have to
be this way. Um, if you go back more than
(17:09):
a century, you end up in the, in the Gilded Age,
you know, in America, which was also, uh, an age
of incredible immorality and incredible vice and inequality. You know,
the the robber barons, the Vanderbilts, for example, building these
huge mansions on Fifth Avenue here in New York, uh,
(17:30):
only thinking about themselves. But then at some point, there
was a counter movement against that, and it was a
revolt of elites. That's really important to keep in mind.
So just take someone like Alva Vanderbilt. I don't write
about her in the book. The book was already getting
too long, But, like, she was, um, married to a Vanderbilt.
She got divorced. And then a little bit, like some
(17:51):
of the first wives of the billionaires in our age,
like Mackenzie Scott, for example, the former wife of Jeff Bezos.
She became a huge philanthropist. So that was like her
big f-you to her former husband. And she became one
of the most important suffragettes, uh, you know, spent the
rest of her life fighting for women's right and fighting
for women's right to vote. Um, and that is honestly
(18:14):
what we need right now. That's also what this book
is very much about. It's about looking for a moral maxima.
We do not live in an era anymore where you
can say, oh, I'm just doing good by doing well.
You know, I'm donating a tiny percentage of my profits
to charities that I really like and that are good
for my PR. No, no, come on, this is really
(18:37):
the time to, uh, to step up and to really
make a substantial difference, especially if you have if you
have capital, whether that whether that's financial capital, social capital,
cultural capital, like people who can take a hit, you know,
who have something they they need to use, what they have.
So that's that's my slogan right now. It's not check
(18:58):
your privilege, but use your privilege to make a damn difference.
S2 (19:01):
Yes, you really do shake up. Um. One's thinking quite
a bit. I found this myself reading the book, and
one of the things that struck me that, um, as, um,
absolutely a very wise reflection, as was how some progressive
groups become their own worst enemies by shutting out potential allies.
And you give the example of America's pro-choice, um, organization,
(19:24):
narrow acronym, saying that just before Roe versus Wade was
overturned in 2022, they put out a post saying feminism
that doesn't include trans women and girls is not feminism.
So it is kind of a little bit of self sabotage,
isn't it, going on with if things are absolutely set
(19:44):
in cement like that?
S3 (19:46):
Yeah. Look, I spent most of my time in the
book dunking on progressives, but that's also because I expect
more of them and they should do better. Um, and
this is this is a good example. Um, a couple
of years ago, um, indeed, in the midst of the pandemic,
there was a total breakdown among progressive organizations in the
English speaking world. And I think we saw it in
(20:07):
other places as well, in Europe, um, where there was
just this mentality that people were obsessed with their own purity. Right. Uh,
and there were there was obviously this cancel culture that
was that was obvious to everyone. Um, but also just
a refusal to work with others who, you know, didn't
(20:30):
agree with you on, like, all points. And that's just, again,
it's deeply, morally unserious. Sometimes you hear these activists saying,
we gotta fight, fight, fight. I'm like, well, fighting. That's
winning elections, right? That is fighting. Then you are. You
are fighting for people. Then you have power. And with
power you can make a difference. So if you believe that, just,
(20:53):
you know, shouting your radical stuff on Instagram, you know,
is helping you to win elections, I just think that
you live in some kind of fantasy world very often.
You need to build coalitions, right? You need to think
really hard about what works. Um, and yeah, that doesn't
that that means that you can't always, you know, just
(21:14):
gaze at your navel and say whatever you think. That's again,
it's deeply unserious. And I think that was really clear
a couple of years ago when you had this total breakdown.
And indeed, as Roe v Wade was being dismantled, that
the main pro-choice organizations in the US, they were not
fighting the enemy. They were fighting each other because, yeah,
apparently their colleagues weren't radical enough.
S2 (21:35):
And that is a real danger now with social media,
of course, because of the algorithms, um, Basically give you
information you want to read so you can read all
this nice, um, you know, the counterbalance critiques of what's
happening for argument's sake, in America at the moment and think, well,
you know, there's a large section of the population here
(21:56):
really find, um, uh, many of the changes being executed
by the Trump administration, deeply troubling. So you can look
at this and read it and think, you know, well,
there's a real kind of counter, not so much a
counter revolution, but a counter counter, um, challenge to the
this way of thinking. But it's it's kind of illusory,
(22:17):
isn't it? Or because, um, it's just people venting on
social media.
S3 (22:23):
Yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes these people are being described
as radical. So like woke people are, are, are then
described as people who go too far. And I'm always like, no,
they don't go nearly far enough. You know, they're they're
mainly policing our language. They're mainly discussing, you know, what
the right words are to describe all the injustice in
(22:43):
the world, in the world. But, you know, in the end,
it's not about like which words we use, how many
words are important. They shape our reality to some extent,
but it's much more important what people actually do. So
take something like the modern environmental movement. I mean, a
huge part of that movement is obsessed with people's own
environmental footprint. So you have all these commandments today, right?
(23:06):
Commandments such as don't fly, don't eat meat, don't have kids,
don't use plastic straws. And look, I get some of it.
I'm I mean, I'm pretty much vegan myself, but I
don't consider that my great contribution to the world, because
if you think about it, if you do everything right
in that regard, then you have reduced your footprint to
(23:29):
almost zero, I guess. And then you might as well
not have existed. So then death is the highest ideal, um,
which is not very ambitious, you know, which is not
how we're going to solve this climate crisis. We're going
to solve it by building an insane amount of sustainable energy.
And if you now look at why that's often not
(23:49):
happening quickly enough, well, you can start ranting about, you know,
the billionaires and the corporate corporations standing in the way.
But honestly, it's very often just NIMBYs, not in my backyard,
people abusing environmental laws from the 70s and the 80s.
So it's very often also like governments and local governments
that are just not delivering. Um, so, um, Ezra Klein
(24:11):
and Derek Thompson, you know, two American journalists have just
written a great book about this called abundance, where they
say that we really need a liberalism that builds, you know,
not just an obsession with the right procedures and using
the right words and the right vibes and feelings, etc..
I mean, just like no victim of gun violence was
ever brought back from the dead, you know, because because
(24:32):
of some thoughts and prayers, we've never had affordable housing,
you know, because we used more inclusive language. That's just
not how it works. You get affordable housing if you
build it. Um, so yeah, we we need a big,
big mentality shift there.
S2 (24:57):
Now human beings, they don't treat one another particularly well.
But if there's one thing that, um, we could say
is that we humans treat animals far, far worse. You
talk about industrial farming and food production in the book,
and it's epically cruel. What do we do with a
rapidly growing global population? Notwithstanding fertility rates dropping in the
(25:23):
developed world, the world population is still increasing. What do
we do? You mentioned veganism and vegetarianism, and I completely
agree with you that, you know, amongst the vegetarians and vegans,
I know they don't really talk about it very much,
and yet it's the non-vegan and non-vegetarians perception of them
(25:44):
that can become really quite hostile. Yeah, yeah, they don't
take a moral stance about it. They don't get on
social media and.
S3 (25:52):
Say some do.
S2 (25:53):
Some some do, but not not amongst.
S3 (25:55):
The.
S2 (25:55):
Ones I know.
S3 (25:56):
A couple.
S4 (25:56):
Of them. Okay. Um, look.
S3 (26:00):
I've always found this question of how will the historians
of the future look back on us to be utterly fascinating?
We can look back on, say, the Romans, and be
horrified by some of the things they did. Like, oh,
they had the Colosseum where they threw naked women in
front of the lions just for entertainment during lunchtime. But
(26:21):
then the Romans would say, well, look, we're actually really
civilized because we don't sacrifice children to the gods anymore.
You know, as some of those barbarians do over there. Um,
so you got to keep in mind that every civilization
throughout history has seen itself as like the endpoint, the
most civilized of of all. And it would be quite
(26:43):
coincidental if that would be actually true for us. Right?
That that we have figured it all out. I think
that's quite unlikely. We are probably doing some things today
that can be considered moral catastrophes. Uh, you know, similar
to legal slavery, for example, which we now find horrifying.
But that was pretty normal in the 17th century in
(27:03):
most countries, and not just in European colonies, but across
the globe. So, um, yeah, what could it be? And
so in the book, I make the case that the
way we treat animals is the most obvious example here.
I mean, every week there's new scientific evidence coming in
about how extraordinary animals are, how much smarter they are,
(27:26):
how much more sensitive they are, how much more capable
they are of of suffering, which is, in the end,
the most basic question like, can they suffer? That's, that's
that's the question that. That matters most. And the answer
is yes, a resounding yes. And then if you look
how we treat fish well, we build these huge underwater
torture chambers for them, and we call it fish farming.
(27:48):
We we, uh, treat chickens in the most horrible ways.
You know, we've, uh, bred them to basically, uh, live
their whole lives in a body that it has become
their prison. Um, so they can't really grow old anymore. These,
these Franken chickens because, you know, their body just collapses
because because they grow so quickly, uh, you know, so
(28:11):
that they produce as much meat as possible. Um, it's
really horrifying. But indeed, people don't really want you to
talk about it because meat is so tasty. Um, which
is true. Um, so then the question is, how do
we get out of this? For me, it's now pretty
clear that just shouting go vegan is not going to
get us there. I mean, we've been doing that for
(28:32):
50 years. We've we've had great people like the Australian
philosopher Peter Singer, you know, who made the case in
the early 70s in his brilliant book Animal Liberation. And
back then he thought, you know, that just publishing that book, surely,
you know, if people read it, then surely then that
should be enough. Well, sadly, no. So what we need
(28:52):
is a technological revolution. Um, just like the birth control
pill caused modern feminism. I think that new sustainable proteins,
clean meat, um, precision fermentation, another very promising technology. Um,
I think that will just create alternatives that tastes so good,
that are much cheaper and also much healthier, that then
(29:15):
at some point people are like, you know, why? Why
would you even eat meat from a real animal? And
then things will start to shift, and someday our children
will look back and be absolutely, absolutely horrified by the monsters,
the monsters, the moral monsters that chose to eat their
own weight in meat every single year.
S2 (29:35):
Now, I wanted to ask you about Andrew Tate, the
self-declared misogynist who has a huge following, something like 9
or 10 million followers on social media. 90% of them
young men.
S4 (29:47):
Mhm.
S2 (29:48):
Um, and he's basically appeals to their base instincts, make
lots of money and control women. They've recently returned to
Romania after being invited to the US by the Trump administration.
When I say they, it's Andrew Tate and his brothers
who have influencers like Tate made it more difficult for,
(30:08):
for for us to take, um, a moral position in society.
Is it just being eroded by these, uh, for lack
of a better word, um, immoral people?
S4 (30:20):
Well, I think.
S3 (30:21):
That they are just symptoms of this moral collapse. Um,
let me give you an example. Since the 1960s, there
has been this freshman survey among American students, in which
they were asked after their most important life goals. Um,
and in the late 60s, 90% of American students said
(30:43):
that developing a meaningful philosophy of life was one of
their most important life goals. Only 50% said that making
a lot of money was one of their most important
life goals. Now, today, those numbers have reversed, so only
half cares deeply about developing a meaningful philosophy of life.
While 90% of students care very deeply about making a
(31:03):
lot of money. This is not human nature. This is culture. Um,
and that also means we can change it. Um, I
think Andrew Tate is also an example of how we've
just utterly failed at providing young men with role models. Um,
I honestly experienced this myself not very long ago. Um,
(31:26):
when our daughter was born, she got this lovely plaquette
from my sister saying, nice girls don't make history. And
we were like, yes, indeed, that's how we're going to
raise her. So we bought all these books about, you know,
modern feminism and about how girls are powerful and girls
are strong and girls can do anything. And our son
(31:47):
was born a couple of months ago, our second. And
then I was like, okay, so I'm really curious, like,
where are all the books are about what it means
to be a man? And so far I haven't I
haven't really found those books yet.
S2 (32:01):
It is fascinating, isn't it, because most of the books
about men, and there are a few, have been written
by women, not many by men. And I wonder what
that says about men, though not being self-examining perhaps not.
Not sort of finding it embarrassing to talk about masculinity, perhaps.
S4 (32:18):
Well, look.
S3 (32:19):
There is such a thing as toxic masculinity, and Andrew
Tate is the very pure form of that. It's like
the most shallow, violent, sad, psychopathic form of what a
man can be. But then there must be an opposite
of that, right? What is the opposite of toxic masculinity?
And I don't think we talk nearly enough about that
(32:40):
for me. It is heroic masculinity. So for me, masculinity
is about, you know, making progress, becoming more powerful, becoming
more skilled, and then using that privilege you have or
that capital you have or whatever you want to call it,
to help others. That is what heroic masculinity is. I
find that funny. If I look at the young boys,
(33:01):
you know, some of the sons from my friends, I
find it always funny to see them always walking around
in this superhero world. Right? One is a firefighter. One
is a, one is a police officer. They're always like
saving the world. It's also what I remember about my
own childhood. I very much have this hero complex, you know,
whenever I play computer games or like, uh, you know,
saving the world, my mom would ask me, like, where
(33:22):
are you going to do tonight? And I would reply, well,
I'm going to save the world, mom. Uh, in some
virtual reality. But that is, um, that is actually a
good thing, I would argue, um, it's easy to dunk
on it. But the opposite of heroic masculinity is toxic masculinity.
And surely we don't want that. Um, so I think
we got to get better at, um, providing different role
(33:44):
models for these young men because many of them are
utterly lost. Uh, you know, they live in this TikTok reality, um,
quite isolated. Uh, and the statistics are just super, super depressing.
I mean, just yesterday, I read some new stats that
came out about, uh, young men and the amount of
(34:06):
them who who just feel useless. And that has doubled
in the US since 2010. Uh, it's now 20%. In
a way, we let that happen by by not providing
the alternatives and by just giving this form of heroin
that we, that we call, you know, TikTok and smartphones
to them. Uh, luckily, Australia here is ahead of the
curve and I hope that other countries are are going
(34:29):
to follow by by just banning this toxic crap.
S2 (34:31):
I hope so. I hope so too. So just wrapping up, um,
we've got so many huge challenges facing humanity in the planet.
Do you describe yourself as an optimist or a pessimist?
There's the old expression, of course the optimists are happy
and the pessimists are right. But which category would you
put yourself in?
S3 (34:52):
I'm a realist, of course. Uh, but I'm also hopeful.
For me, hope is about the possibility of change. Actually,
one of the reasons I wrote this book is that
I got really annoyed with myself. Here I was, you know,
I'd spent about a decade of my career writing articles
and books and providing commentary, giving my opinions about what
other people should do to make the world a better place.
(35:12):
And I was like, I'm going to write a book
that will force me to change my life. Uh, and
that's what it did. You know, I co-founded this organization
called the school for Moral Ambition. Everything I earn with
this book is going into the movement, and we are
helping as many people as possible to pivot their careers,
to focus on the really important challenges, whether that's global health,
(35:34):
you know, 15,000 kids dying every day from easily preventable diseases,
or the fight against the tobacco industry or preventing the
next pandemic. I mean, there's so much important work to
be done, and we really need our best and brightest.
It's it's all hands on deck. So we like to
see ourselves as the Robin Hoods of talent. Robin hood
gave away the took the money from the rich. Well,
(35:55):
we we take the talent from the rich. And if
people are interested in joining us, the website is Moral Ambition.
Org where we're really building a community of of like minded,
ambitious idealists. Um, so yeah, everyone is welcome to join.
S4 (36:09):
Us.
S2 (36:09):
And all power to you for, um, for writing the
book and for forming the organization as well, because we
certainly need it to counter what's happening so broadly in
society at the moment. Thank you so much for joining
us today.
S4 (36:23):
Thank you so much as well.
S1 (36:26):
That was Dutch historian Rutger Bregman, being interviewed by Goodwick
and acting editor Greg Callahan on the latest Good Weekend
talks coming soon. We chat with Adelaide novelist Hannah Kent,
author of the 2013 smash hit Burial Rites, set in Iceland,
who has a new work of memoir about her time
living there. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe,
(36:49):
rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep
tuning in for more compelling conversations. Good Weekend Talks is
brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(37:12):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Josh towers. Tammy
Mills is our executive producer, Tom McKendrick is head of
audio and Greg Callaghan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:32):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Rutger Bregman. You might remember the Dutch historian and author
from a 2019 appearance at the World Economic Forum in Davos,
which went viral after he called out the many millionaires
and billionaires there for tax avoidance. He joins us today, however,
to talk about everything from the loss of America's moral
authority after the election of Donald Trump, to why we
(00:55):
need more ordinary people speaking up and defending principles of
human decency. The magazine this week features an extract from
Bregman's new book, Moral Ambition, examining our monstrous and long
running cruelty to animals, and hosting our conversation this week,
which delves into the corrosiveness of misogynistic male influences to
(01:15):
the role of realistic idealism in improving the moral trajectory
of our society, is good weekend acting editor Greg Callahan.
S2 (01:24):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Rutger.
S3 (01:27):
Thanks for having me. Great to be with you.
S2 (01:29):
Now, in your book, Moral Ambition, you you basically say
the most people waste their lives or they don't reach
their full potential, and they could be doing things to
make life better for all of us. What do you
actually mean by that?
S3 (01:42):
Well, maybe not most people, Greg, but a lot of people. Um,
so there's one study that was done by a couple
of economists a couple of years ago, and that study
found after, you know, interviewing 100,000 people in more than
40 countries, that around 25% of people in those countries
think that their own job is socially useless. So it's
(02:05):
not me saying it, it's people themselves saying it about
their own jobs. And that seems like an enormous waste
of talent.
S2 (02:11):
When you use the word useless, when people say their
their work is useless, does that actually mean that they
don't find the work satisfying, or that they think the
job itself is is pointless?
S3 (02:27):
So I think it means that they could go on
strike and it wouldn't matter all that much. So during
the pandemic, we discovered this whole category of jobs called
the essential jobs. You know, the teachers, the nurses, the
care workers, you name it. Well, if they go on strike,
that's a that's a pretty big problem. Um, but if, say,
all the marketeers go on strike or, you know, a
(02:48):
lot of corporate lawyers go on strike or bankers go
on strike. Well, I'm a historian, and I once asked
myself this question has there ever been a strike of
bankers throughout history. Turns out there was only 1 in 1970,
in Ireland, and that strike lasted for six months. And
after six months, the bankers came back and said, all right,
all right, all right, we'll get back to work because
nothing really happened. The economy just kept growing. I'm not
(03:11):
saying that like all finance is socially useless. Obviously not.
But it is like a risk category, right? If you
start interviewing people, then quite often if they're like what
a friend of mine calls the Bermuda Triangle of talent.
So you've got consultancy, you've got corporate law and you've
got finance, uh, you know, sucking up so many of
our best and brightest. Um, yeah, a lot of those
(03:32):
people think that their job doesn't contribute much to society.
S2 (03:35):
Yeah. So a lot of us do labour away at
jobs that don't necessarily contribute much to society. But then
some people are happy doing that because they're earning lots
of money for argument's sake. Um, not everyone has the
kind of desire to improve the lot of humanity. They're
just pretty much, um, the sort of people that probably
(03:57):
don't see much beyond the end of their own nose, really.
They've got their own lives, and that's how they they think, um, sure.
Aren't you aren't you up against that kind of, um,
basic human narcissism when when you talk about, you know,
making the world a bit a better place?
S3 (04:15):
Well, look, it's a free country, so people always have
the right to be boring, right? People have the right
to live a predictable life. So if someone goes to
a top university, I don't know, to Oxford or to
Harvard or whatever, and they really desperately want to go
to Wall Street, make a lot of money and not
really make a positive impact whatsoever. You know, they're free
(04:37):
to do. So. Um, I wrote this book for people
who are yearning for something more, who want to build
a legacy that actually matters. Um, I studied the great
pioneers of the past, the abolitionists, the suffragettes. And I
discovered that these people often had the idealism of an activist,
but also the ambition of an entrepreneur. So this book
is basically is basically a call to arms for people who, yeah,
(05:01):
do have that hole in their soul who are like,
you know, I could do so much more. But here
I am, stuck in this cubicle. Uh, how do I
get out? And, uh, yeah, that's what the book is about.
S2 (05:12):
And you give some pretty stunning examples of, uh, people
who have basically, um, for lack of a better expression,
put stuck their necks out. You mentioned Rosa Parks, the
black woman sitting on the bus back in, um, 1955,
in Alabama, who refused to give up her seat for
a white person. She became a symbol of the civil
(05:33):
rights movement, of course. But, um, as you point out
in your book, she kind of had a history. She
was an activist before that kind of huge, um, turning point,
wasn't she?
S3 (05:44):
Absolutely. So everyone knows this story, or at least everyone
thinks they know about this story. You know, a very
brave woman refuses to stand up, um, for a white
woman who wants to take her place. And then in
that way, a whole movement gets started. The famous Montgomery
bus boycott. Well, a lot of people don't know is
(06:04):
that actually there was the so-called Women's Political Council that
was planning this bus boycott for many months, but they
were just waiting for the right moment. And there were many,
many women before Rosa Parks who were also arrested. So,
for example, a couple of months earlier, a young woman
named Claudette Colvin, um, was thrown out of the bus
because she didn't want to give up her seat. And
(06:26):
in that sense, Rosa Parks wasn't that special. But this
political action group was so strategic that were just they
were just waiting for the right symbol, you know, the
right mascot of their whole movement. And Rosa Parks turned
out to be, uh, you know, a really brilliant activist
as well. She had actually, um, done quite a bit
of training in a school in Tennessee for, for activists.
(06:47):
So it's really interesting. People think that, oh, these kind
of things happen spontaneously. No, to the contrary, these this
was a movement that, yeah, in my view, was very
morally ambitious. They saw winning as their moral duty. You know,
there were not like the modern day activists, you know,
shouting kill the patriarchy or tax the rich or defund
the police or whatever. Uh, on Instagram. Uh, no. These
(07:09):
people knew how to get shit done. You know how
to build an actual movement, how to get a law
through Parliament. And, uh, yeah, I admire that a lot.
And I think we can learn a lot from them.
S2 (07:20):
I think we can, too. I think the people who
do take this kind of stand by nature, um, very,
very brave people. You also mentioned, um, the man in
a large crowd of thousands of people giving a Nazi salute.
He's the one person in a very famous photograph who
has his arms folded. Um, resistance to the Nazi salute.
(07:45):
You found out some interesting details behind that photo.
S3 (07:48):
Yeah, absolutely. So this is a very famous photo. Like
everyone listening, will. If they look it up, they will
immediately recognize it. Indeed. It's a it's at a shipyard.
Adolf Hitler was coming there, and there's a huge crowd indeed,
all giving the Nazi salute. And here's this one guy
who's basically standing, you know, with his arms folded, saying,
like or giving this impression like, I don't do this. And,
(08:11):
you know, when it was discovered in the 90s, um, uh, yeah,
it caused a big stir. And it's still every now
and then it goes viral, usually with the message be
that guy. I really delved into the history of of
this man and realized that actually, this was just it. Like,
he didn't get much done apart from that. Uh, I mean,
(08:33):
he still worked at that shipyard producing for the war machine.
He in no way joined the resistance or anything like that.
I mean, he didn't really have a substantial positive impact
for others. So, uh, this is what I in the
book describe as the noble loser, right? This is what
(08:53):
you see a lot among progressives. And, you know, among
some of my friends on the left, you know, they
they lose the elections again. And then they say, well,
but at least we stood on the right side of history, right?
At least we had the right opinions. And it's that
kind of purist attitude that is, I think, fundamentally morally unserious. So, look,
(09:15):
we can still deeply admire the courage of someone like that.
But we got to keep in mind that in the
end it's about actually achieving results.
S2 (09:22):
So where would you put that soul man in Tiananmen
Square in 1989, facing the tanks that was part of
the Chinese Communist Party. Where would you place him? Because
that was an extraordinary act of bravery.
S3 (09:40):
Oh, absolutely. Incredibly brave. Um, and look, don't get me wrong. Like,
protest movements have been utterly essential throughout history, and I
think we desperately need one in the US right now.
I mean, I moved to the US in September of
last year. You know, on an immigrant visa. And I'm like, okay, well, uh, it's, uh,
(10:03):
it's a situation where we could definitely use some people
in the streets to protest against the decline of democracy. So, um,
I'm really only making the point that, um, we got
to look at these things, like tools in a toolbox. Um,
and we should resist falling in love with our own methods. So, yes,
(10:24):
sometimes we need radical climate activists occupying squares, you know,
to put pressure on politicians. But then sometimes we need
really smart lobbyists who deeply understand how a law gets
through Parliament, you know, and how to push the right buttons,
who or who really know where the money goes. Or
sometimes we need entrepreneurs who build amazing companies, you know,
(10:47):
who actually know how to create all kinds of innovations
in sustainable energy or sustainable proteins or whatever. It's, uh,
it just depends. Um, and that's what moral ambition is about,
is thinking really hard about what is necessary right now
and how you can make the biggest possible impact.
S2 (11:03):
It's also about having very sound values and being, um,
generous of spirit to. I'm thinking of Jonas Salk, who, um,
who refused to patent his polio vaccine back in 1955.
In today's money, he gave up $7 billion but saved
thousands of lives or thousands of children's lives, saving them
(11:27):
from disability and and premature death. Um, yeah. That that
kind of generosity of spirit. You could argue we don't
see that so much these days.
S3 (11:37):
Well, look, I'm not the kind of historian who will
who will tell you, oh, everything used to be better. Because,
you know, once you really dive into the history, things
were pretty bad in the past as well. look, there's
there's one reason why I wanted to devote a whole
chapter in the book to the power of technology and
(11:57):
positive innovations, because these days we often have a pretty
dark vision of what tech can do, right? When I
say the word technology tech, we think of billionaires who
shoot themselves up in space, you know, and who don't
pay their fair share in taxes. Or we think of
Elon Musk and his chainsaw. Um, well, that is that
is certainly one, uh, side of the coin, but there's
(12:20):
another side as well. I mean, the big progress we've
made as a species in the last 200 years, um,
the fact that we have so much wealth that we
can also redistribute more fairly is, is is very much
so because we made incredible technological progress and indeed the
triumph of vaccines here. Uh, I mean, it's just like
(12:41):
we should have, like a national celebration every year. Polio,
if you look into that history, it is so shocking.
People that were super scared. I mean, I have young kids, um,
our youngest is four months old. Our oldest is four years, uh,
three years old. And just just imagine living with the
constant terror of that. Your kid might get polio, you know,
(13:03):
and and and how horrible that will be. That was
just daily reality for people in the 50s. They were
scared of two things of the atomic bomb and of polio.
And then along comes Jonas Salk, you know, and a
brilliant technological innovation works on it for years with a
with a brilliant team. And I, I read the eyewitness
reports of how people responded back then, you know, in
(13:24):
the 50s when it was announced that Jonas Salk had
invented the polio vaccine. You know what they did? They
went out in the streets, they started singing, they started celebrating.
You know, it was it was very moving to read
about that. Um, and uh, anyway, that sometimes makes. Yeah.
If you don't think about today, like, what did we
do when the Covid vaccine was announced? Um, yeah. We
(13:47):
can learn from From our. Yeah. From the people in
the past.
S2 (13:51):
And now we have, um, RFK in America trying to
wind back, um, you know, vaccine technology. Now you're in
the US. You just said it. Living there at the moment, um,
it appears that the country since, um, Trump's victory appears
to have taken a turn for the worse. And it's
(14:12):
not even an issue of left or right politics anymore.
It's basically boiling down to what's right or wrong. Um,
you know, empathy appears to have become unfashionable under the
Trump administration. Morality appears to have become unfashionable. Would that
be a fair statement?
S3 (14:31):
Absolutely, 100%. So the Republican Party is in a state
of complete moral collapse. Um, it is now being ruled by, well,
in the best case, by, by cranks and crazy people,
but in the worst case by just downright evil people
are incredibly selfish people. Um, it's, uh, it's really shocking
(14:53):
to see. And honestly, it's also worse than I expected. Um,
if you just see the incredible amount of just the
economic damage that's being done or the betrayal of, you know,
decades old allies, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's deeply depressing. Uh,
(15:13):
I think there's now a very real chance that there
will be an authoritarian breakthrough, um, in the US in
the next couple of years. Um, so, yeah, that's that's
what sociologists call democratic backsliding, where you just gradually move
towards a system that can't really be called a democracy anymore. Uh,
and yeah, there are already substantial steps being taken in
(15:37):
that direction. So, yeah, it's a it's a story. I
don't have happy news there. It's a scary world we
live in.
S2 (15:42):
Indeed it is. It's it's particularly telling that the Republican
congressmen and senators who previously many of whom were so
critical of Donald Trump's behavior and saying he was bad
for America and potentially would be an authoritarian leader, are
now backing him, and they're watching their own democracy erode
(16:06):
and the country's standing in the world erode as well.
I mean, what does that say about these people? What
does it say about human behavior being so, so grossly self-interested,
them putting themselves their own self-interest above their country?
S3 (16:24):
And I would say they're not even doing that because
they'll go down in the end as well. So they're
just incredible, incredible cowards. That's true for Republicans in Congress.
It's also true for many, many business leaders in the US.
I mean, I was just reading about the richest law
firms here in the US who just refused to sign
a letter to even support, you know, their colleagues who
(16:47):
are currently being targeted by the Trump administration, uh, because they, uh,
you know, were involved in, uh, the lawsuits against Trump, uh,
under the Biden administration. So, yeah, it's just deeply depressing,
I guess where I find some hope is, is is again,
in history because we know that it doesn't have to
be this way. Um, if you go back more than
(17:09):
a century, you end up in the, in the Gilded Age,
you know, in America, which was also, uh, an age
of incredible immorality and incredible vice and inequality. You know,
the the robber barons, the Vanderbilts, for example, building these
huge mansions on Fifth Avenue here in New York, uh,
(17:30):
only thinking about themselves. But then at some point, there
was a counter movement against that, and it was a
revolt of elites. That's really important to keep in mind.
So just take someone like Alva Vanderbilt. I don't write
about her in the book. The book was already getting
too long, But, like, she was, um, married to a Vanderbilt.
She got divorced. And then a little bit, like some
(17:51):
of the first wives of the billionaires in our age,
like Mackenzie Scott, for example, the former wife of Jeff Bezos.
She became a huge philanthropist. So that was like her
big f-you to her former husband. And she became one
of the most important suffragettes, uh, you know, spent the
rest of her life fighting for women's right and fighting
for women's right to vote. Um, and that is honestly
(18:14):
what we need right now. That's also what this book
is very much about. It's about looking for a moral maxima.
We do not live in an era anymore where you
can say, oh, I'm just doing good by doing well.
You know, I'm donating a tiny percentage of my profits
to charities that I really like and that are good
for my PR. No, no, come on, this is really
(18:37):
the time to, uh, to step up and to really
make a substantial difference, especially if you have if you
have capital, whether that whether that's financial capital, social capital,
cultural capital, like people who can take a hit, you know,
who have something they they need to use, what they have.
So that's that's my slogan right now. It's not check
(18:58):
your privilege, but use your privilege to make a damn difference.
S2 (19:01):
Yes, you really do shake up. Um. One's thinking quite
a bit. I found this myself reading the book, and
one of the things that struck me that, um, as, um,
absolutely a very wise reflection, as was how some progressive
groups become their own worst enemies by shutting out potential allies.
And you give the example of America's pro-choice, um, organization,
(19:24):
narrow acronym, saying that just before Roe versus Wade was
overturned in 2022, they put out a post saying feminism
that doesn't include trans women and girls is not feminism.
So it is kind of a little bit of self sabotage,
isn't it, going on with if things are absolutely set
(19:44):
in cement like that?
S3 (19:46):
Yeah. Look, I spent most of my time in the
book dunking on progressives, but that's also because I expect
more of them and they should do better. Um, and
this is this is a good example. Um, a couple
of years ago, um, indeed, in the midst of the pandemic,
there was a total breakdown among progressive organizations in the
English speaking world. And I think we saw it in
(20:07):
other places as well, in Europe, um, where there was
just this mentality that people were obsessed with their own purity. Right. Uh,
and there were there was obviously this cancel culture that
was that was obvious to everyone. Um, but also just
a refusal to work with others who, you know, didn't
(20:30):
agree with you on, like, all points. And that's just, again,
it's deeply, morally unserious. Sometimes you hear these activists saying,
we gotta fight, fight, fight. I'm like, well, fighting. That's
winning elections, right? That is fighting. Then you are. You
are fighting for people. Then you have power. And with
power you can make a difference. So if you believe that, just,
(20:53):
you know, shouting your radical stuff on Instagram, you know,
is helping you to win elections, I just think that
you live in some kind of fantasy world very often.
You need to build coalitions, right? You need to think
really hard about what works. Um, and yeah, that doesn't
that that means that you can't always, you know, just
(21:14):
gaze at your navel and say whatever you think. That's again,
it's deeply unserious. And I think that was really clear
a couple of years ago when you had this total breakdown.
And indeed, as Roe v Wade was being dismantled, that
the main pro-choice organizations in the US, they were not
fighting the enemy. They were fighting each other because, yeah,
apparently their colleagues weren't radical enough.
S2 (21:35):
And that is a real danger now with social media,
of course, because of the algorithms, um, Basically give you
information you want to read so you can read all
this nice, um, you know, the counterbalance critiques of what's
happening for argument's sake, in America at the moment and think, well,
you know, there's a large section of the population here
(21:56):
really find, um, uh, many of the changes being executed
by the Trump administration, deeply troubling. So you can look
at this and read it and think, you know, well,
there's a real kind of counter, not so much a
counter revolution, but a counter counter, um, challenge to the
this way of thinking. But it's it's kind of illusory,
(22:17):
isn't it? Or because, um, it's just people venting on
social media.
S3 (22:23):
Yeah, yeah. You know, sometimes these people are being described
as radical. So like woke people are, are, are then
described as people who go too far. And I'm always like, no,
they don't go nearly far enough. You know, they're they're
mainly policing our language. They're mainly discussing, you know, what
the right words are to describe all the injustice in
(22:43):
the world, in the world. But, you know, in the end,
it's not about like which words we use, how many
words are important. They shape our reality to some extent,
but it's much more important what people actually do. So
take something like the modern environmental movement. I mean, a
huge part of that movement is obsessed with people's own
environmental footprint. So you have all these commandments today, right?
(23:06):
Commandments such as don't fly, don't eat meat, don't have kids,
don't use plastic straws. And look, I get some of it.
I'm I mean, I'm pretty much vegan myself, but I
don't consider that my great contribution to the world, because
if you think about it, if you do everything right
in that regard, then you have reduced your footprint to
(23:29):
almost zero, I guess. And then you might as well
not have existed. So then death is the highest ideal, um,
which is not very ambitious, you know, which is not
how we're going to solve this climate crisis. We're going
to solve it by building an insane amount of sustainable energy.
And if you now look at why that's often not
(23:49):
happening quickly enough, well, you can start ranting about, you know,
the billionaires and the corporate corporations standing in the way.
But honestly, it's very often just NIMBYs, not in my backyard,
people abusing environmental laws from the 70s and the 80s.
So it's very often also like governments and local governments
that are just not delivering. Um, so, um, Ezra Klein
(24:11):
and Derek Thompson, you know, two American journalists have just
written a great book about this called abundance, where they
say that we really need a liberalism that builds, you know,
not just an obsession with the right procedures and using
the right words and the right vibes and feelings, etc..
I mean, just like no victim of gun violence was
ever brought back from the dead, you know, because because
(24:32):
of some thoughts and prayers, we've never had affordable housing,
you know, because we used more inclusive language. That's just
not how it works. You get affordable housing if you
build it. Um, so yeah, we we need a big,
big mentality shift there.
S2 (24:57):
Now human beings, they don't treat one another particularly well.
But if there's one thing that, um, we could say
is that we humans treat animals far, far worse. You
talk about industrial farming and food production in the book,
and it's epically cruel. What do we do with a
rapidly growing global population? Notwithstanding fertility rates dropping in the
(25:23):
developed world, the world population is still increasing. What do
we do? You mentioned veganism and vegetarianism, and I completely
agree with you that, you know, amongst the vegetarians and vegans,
I know they don't really talk about it very much,
and yet it's the non-vegan and non-vegetarians perception of them
(25:44):
that can become really quite hostile. Yeah, yeah, they don't
take a moral stance about it. They don't get on
social media and.
S3 (25:52):
Say some do.
S2 (25:53):
Some some do, but not not amongst.
S3 (25:55):
The.
S2 (25:55):
Ones I know.
S3 (25:56):
A couple.
S4 (25:56):
Of them. Okay. Um, look.
S3 (26:00):
I've always found this question of how will the historians
of the future look back on us to be utterly fascinating?
We can look back on, say, the Romans, and be
horrified by some of the things they did. Like, oh,
they had the Colosseum where they threw naked women in
front of the lions just for entertainment during lunchtime. But
(26:21):
then the Romans would say, well, look, we're actually really
civilized because we don't sacrifice children to the gods anymore.
You know, as some of those barbarians do over there. Um,
so you got to keep in mind that every civilization
throughout history has seen itself as like the endpoint, the
most civilized of of all. And it would be quite
(26:43):
coincidental if that would be actually true for us. Right?
That that we have figured it all out. I think
that's quite unlikely. We are probably doing some things today
that can be considered moral catastrophes. Uh, you know, similar
to legal slavery, for example, which we now find horrifying.
But that was pretty normal in the 17th century in
(27:03):
most countries, and not just in European colonies, but across
the globe. So, um, yeah, what could it be? And
so in the book, I make the case that the
way we treat animals is the most obvious example here.
I mean, every week there's new scientific evidence coming in
about how extraordinary animals are, how much smarter they are,
(27:26):
how much more sensitive they are, how much more capable
they are of of suffering, which is, in the end,
the most basic question like, can they suffer? That's, that's
that's the question that. That matters most. And the answer
is yes, a resounding yes. And then if you look
how we treat fish well, we build these huge underwater
torture chambers for them, and we call it fish farming.
(27:48):
We we, uh, treat chickens in the most horrible ways.
You know, we've, uh, bred them to basically, uh, live
their whole lives in a body that it has become
their prison. Um, so they can't really grow old anymore. These,
these Franken chickens because, you know, their body just collapses
because because they grow so quickly, uh, you know, so
(28:11):
that they produce as much meat as possible. Um, it's
really horrifying. But indeed, people don't really want you to
talk about it because meat is so tasty. Um, which
is true. Um, so then the question is, how do
we get out of this? For me, it's now pretty
clear that just shouting go vegan is not going to
get us there. I mean, we've been doing that for
(28:32):
50 years. We've we've had great people like the Australian
philosopher Peter Singer, you know, who made the case in
the early 70s in his brilliant book Animal Liberation. And
back then he thought, you know, that just publishing that book, surely,
you know, if people read it, then surely then that
should be enough. Well, sadly, no. So what we need
(28:52):
is a technological revolution. Um, just like the birth control
pill caused modern feminism. I think that new sustainable proteins,
clean meat, um, precision fermentation, another very promising technology. Um,
I think that will just create alternatives that tastes so good,
that are much cheaper and also much healthier, that then
(29:15):
at some point people are like, you know, why? Why
would you even eat meat from a real animal? And
then things will start to shift, and someday our children
will look back and be absolutely, absolutely horrified by the monsters,
the monsters, the moral monsters that chose to eat their
own weight in meat every single year.
S2 (29:35):
Now, I wanted to ask you about Andrew Tate, the
self-declared misogynist who has a huge following, something like 9
or 10 million followers on social media. 90% of them
young men.
S4 (29:47):
Mhm.
S2 (29:48):
Um, and he's basically appeals to their base instincts, make
lots of money and control women. They've recently returned to
Romania after being invited to the US by the Trump administration.
When I say they, it's Andrew Tate and his brothers
who have influencers like Tate made it more difficult for,
(30:08):
for for us to take, um, a moral position in society.
Is it just being eroded by these, uh, for lack
of a better word, um, immoral people?
S4 (30:20):
Well, I think.
S3 (30:21):
That they are just symptoms of this moral collapse. Um,
let me give you an example. Since the 1960s, there
has been this freshman survey among American students, in which
they were asked after their most important life goals. Um,
and in the late 60s, 90% of American students said
(30:43):
that developing a meaningful philosophy of life was one of
their most important life goals. Only 50% said that making
a lot of money was one of their most important
life goals. Now, today, those numbers have reversed, so only
half cares deeply about developing a meaningful philosophy of life.
While 90% of students care very deeply about making a
(31:03):
lot of money. This is not human nature. This is culture. Um,
and that also means we can change it. Um, I
think Andrew Tate is also an example of how we've
just utterly failed at providing young men with role models. Um,
I honestly experienced this myself not very long ago. Um,
(31:26):
when our daughter was born, she got this lovely plaquette
from my sister saying, nice girls don't make history. And
we were like, yes, indeed, that's how we're going to
raise her. So we bought all these books about, you know,
modern feminism and about how girls are powerful and girls
are strong and girls can do anything. And our son
(31:47):
was born a couple of months ago, our second. And
then I was like, okay, so I'm really curious, like,
where are all the books are about what it means
to be a man? And so far I haven't I
haven't really found those books yet.
S2 (32:01):
It is fascinating, isn't it, because most of the books
about men, and there are a few, have been written
by women, not many by men. And I wonder what
that says about men, though not being self-examining perhaps not.
Not sort of finding it embarrassing to talk about masculinity, perhaps.
S4 (32:18):
Well, look.
S3 (32:19):
There is such a thing as toxic masculinity, and Andrew
Tate is the very pure form of that. It's like
the most shallow, violent, sad, psychopathic form of what a
man can be. But then there must be an opposite
of that, right? What is the opposite of toxic masculinity?
And I don't think we talk nearly enough about that
(32:40):
for me. It is heroic masculinity. So for me, masculinity
is about, you know, making progress, becoming more powerful, becoming
more skilled, and then using that privilege you have or
that capital you have or whatever you want to call it,
to help others. That is what heroic masculinity is. I
find that funny. If I look at the young boys,
(33:01):
you know, some of the sons from my friends, I
find it always funny to see them always walking around
in this superhero world. Right? One is a firefighter. One
is a, one is a police officer. They're always like
saving the world. It's also what I remember about my
own childhood. I very much have this hero complex, you know,
whenever I play computer games or like, uh, you know,
saving the world, my mom would ask me, like, where
(33:22):
are you going to do tonight? And I would reply, well,
I'm going to save the world, mom. Uh, in some
virtual reality. But that is, um, that is actually a
good thing, I would argue, um, it's easy to dunk
on it. But the opposite of heroic masculinity is toxic masculinity.
And surely we don't want that. Um, so I think
we got to get better at, um, providing different role
(33:44):
models for these young men because many of them are
utterly lost. Uh, you know, they live in this TikTok reality, um,
quite isolated. Uh, and the statistics are just super, super depressing.
I mean, just yesterday, I read some new stats that
came out about, uh, young men and the amount of
(34:06):
them who who just feel useless. And that has doubled
in the US since 2010. Uh, it's now 20%. In
a way, we let that happen by by not providing
the alternatives and by just giving this form of heroin
that we, that we call, you know, TikTok and smartphones
to them. Uh, luckily, Australia here is ahead of the
curve and I hope that other countries are are going
(34:29):
to follow by by just banning this toxic crap.
S2 (34:31):
I hope so. I hope so too. So just wrapping up, um,
we've got so many huge challenges facing humanity in the planet.
Do you describe yourself as an optimist or a pessimist?
There's the old expression, of course the optimists are happy
and the pessimists are right. But which category would you
put yourself in?
S3 (34:52):
I'm a realist, of course. Uh, but I'm also hopeful.
For me, hope is about the possibility of change. Actually,
one of the reasons I wrote this book is that
I got really annoyed with myself. Here I was, you know,
I'd spent about a decade of my career writing articles
and books and providing commentary, giving my opinions about what
other people should do to make the world a better place.
(35:12):
And I was like, I'm going to write a book
that will force me to change my life. Uh, and
that's what it did. You know, I co-founded this organization
called the school for Moral Ambition. Everything I earn with
this book is going into the movement, and we are
helping as many people as possible to pivot their careers,
to focus on the really important challenges, whether that's global health,
(35:34):
you know, 15,000 kids dying every day from easily preventable diseases,
or the fight against the tobacco industry or preventing the
next pandemic. I mean, there's so much important work to
be done, and we really need our best and brightest.
It's it's all hands on deck. So we like to
see ourselves as the Robin Hoods of talent. Robin hood
gave away the took the money from the rich. Well,
(35:55):
we we take the talent from the rich. And if
people are interested in joining us, the website is Moral Ambition.
Org where we're really building a community of of like minded,
ambitious idealists. Um, so yeah, everyone is welcome to join.
S4 (36:09):
Us.
S2 (36:09):
And all power to you for, um, for writing the
book and for forming the organization as well, because we
certainly need it to counter what's happening so broadly in
society at the moment. Thank you so much for joining
us today.
S4 (36:23):
Thank you so much as well.
S1 (36:26):
That was Dutch historian Rutger Bregman, being interviewed by Goodwick
and acting editor Greg Callahan on the latest Good Weekend
talks coming soon. We chat with Adelaide novelist Hannah Kent,
author of the 2013 smash hit Burial Rites, set in Iceland,
who has a new work of memoir about her time
living there. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe,
(36:49):
rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep
tuning in for more compelling conversations. Good Weekend Talks is
brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited
(37:12):
by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Josh towers. Tammy
Mills is our executive producer, Tom McKendrick is head of
audio and Greg Callaghan is the acting editor of Good Weekend.
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