March 20, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, we speak with Matt Kean. The former NSW state politician was once deputy Liberal leader, treasurer, and minister for energy and environment – but he’s now chair of the national Climate Change Authority. That means Kean helps set the Australian agenda in the fight against global warming, shaping federal policies on every hot-button green issue imaginable. Taking on the job was seen in some quarters – by conservative commentators, mostly – as a traitorous move by a “climate communist” now known to some as “Green Kean”. Our new climate change tsar is the subject of a feature profile this week – “Force of Nature” – and hosting this conversation about the powerful enemies Kean now faces, and the fight to save our natural world, is the acting editor of Good Weekend, Greg Callaghan.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:07):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:29):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with
Matt Kean, the former New South Wales state politician was
once a deputy Liberal leader, treasurer and Minister for Energy
and Environment, but he's now chair of the National Climate
Change Authority. That means Kean helped set the Australian agenda
for the fight against global warming by shaping federal policies
(00:51):
and laws on every hot button green issue imaginable. Taking
on the job was seen in some quarters by conservative commentators,
mostly as a traitorous move by a climate communist, now
known to some as Green Keen. Our new climate change
czar is the subject of a feature profile in the
magazine this week, force of nature and hosting this conversation
(01:13):
about the powerful enemies Keane now faces and the fight
to save our natural world, is the acting editor of
Good Weekend, Greg Callahan.
S2 (01:23):
Thank you, Conrad, and welcome Matt Keane.
S3 (01:26):
Good morning Greg.
S2 (01:27):
Now, last year you announced your retirement from politics. The
coalition was no longer in power, and it must have
been pretty damn dull. Sitting in opposition after a pretty
prestigious career as New South Wales Treasurer, Deputy Premier, Minister
of Energy and the environment and so forth. So why
why did you quit?
S3 (01:47):
Well, I think the number one reason was that I
had a young son and a young family, and I
wanted to make sure that I didn't miss out on
him growing up as Treasurer of New South Wales, my
partner was a single mum virtually, and my son saw
me on TV more than he saw me in person.
So I think going into opposition gave me a chance
(02:07):
to reflect on what my priorities were, and I wanted
to be a better dad and a better partner. So
thinking about that and whether I could make that work
in full time politics, I made a decision to try
my hand at something else and see if I could
make an impact in the climate space outside of elected politics.
(02:28):
And fortunately, an opportunity came along for me to do that.
S2 (02:31):
And it must have been pretty proud for your son
to see his old man on the telly.
S3 (02:36):
Yeah, I think he he just takes it for granted. Like, oh,
everyone's on the telly. Of course dad, I was on
a show the other night and I said, oh, make
sure you watch daddy on the show. He's like, no, no,
I'm not going to do that.
S2 (02:50):
He's had enough.
S3 (02:51):
He's had enough.
S2 (02:52):
Yeah. So, so in August last year, standing on the
podium of Parliament House beside Anthony Albanese, the prime Minister,
of course. He announced that you were the new chair
of the Climate Change Authority. Of course, this sent many
conservative right wing members, particularly the Liberal Party, into, um,
(03:13):
you know, a spin. And it got a little bit nasty,
didn't it? You got some called a few names.
S3 (03:19):
Well, um, I did, but I think the point is
that I'm not here to take sides. I'm here to
speak up for the science, the facts and good climate policy.
And quite frankly, if people don't like the facts, then
they should get better policies. Um, people can hurl insults.
They can call me names. That's fine. But if you
(03:41):
think that bullying me is going to influence me, then
you're wasting your time. I'm here to make sure that
we stand up for evidence based climate policy. And that's
what I'll continue to do. That's what I did as
a minister in the New South Wales government. And that's
what I'll do as the independent chair of the climate authority.
And I'll make this point to the science can't be bullied.
Values can't be bullied. People can do their worst to me,
(04:05):
but I'll keep doing my job.
S2 (04:07):
Mm. Oh, well, that's not the case in America, though,
is it? Um, climate change issues are being kind of
bullied out of the public space. The media is on
the defensive there. It's, um. You know, Trump has withdrawn
from the Paris Agreement. It's not. It's not great. In fact,
you could be forgiven for thinking that bullies do win sometimes.
S3 (04:27):
Well, that doesn't have to be the case. And we
need more political leaders to stand up for the national interest,
rather than their own political interests or for vested interests.
And for too long, particularly in the climate space, we've
seen vested interests like the Minerals Council. We've seen, you know,
the fossil fuel lobby, uh, holding power over our elected
(04:48):
representatives at the expense of the community and the planet.
And I'll continue to fight for the community and the
planet against vested interests.
S2 (04:56):
Can you describe just a little bit of maybe an
example or two, without naming names of that of, of
some of those conflicts you had when you were actually
in Parliament, when you were representing? Um, you know, a
member of the Liberal Party, a Conservative party, uh, but
obviously your own principles were slightly at odds with, um,
(05:19):
some of the views of your colleagues. Can you just
give an example of a couple of the, um, maybe
conflicts you had? Was it was it whether nasty words
in emails, cowardly emails or on social media, or did
people just, you know, front up to you face to face.
S3 (05:33):
All of the above. But that's not going to influence me.
What's going to influence me is the evidence and the
facts and what's in the state's interest and the national interest.
And that's that was my North Star. But if you
want an example, I mean, a perfect example is when
we put a cap on the price of coal in
New South Wales. That was as a result of the invasion,
(05:57):
illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, which saw the wholesale
price of coal rise by 360%. Now, we couldn't allow
New South Wales consumers to be hit with that increase,
so we capped the price of coal. And I remember
the head of the Minerals Council at the time telling
me he's going to get me. Now that didn't change
my view. That didn't influence me. I acted in the
(06:19):
public interest rather than for vested interests. So, um, are
people in the positions that I held are there to
act for the public good, and I can sleep very
well at night knowing I did exactly that.
S2 (06:32):
Well, it's great that you can sleep at night, because
my next question was, was simply when you're, um, confronted
and bullied at that kind of level, um, it can
be intimidating. And even though you, you might brush it
aside and skate over it during the day, often these
things catch up with you at night when you're trying
to unwind and rest.
S3 (06:52):
I think I wouldn't sleep well if I didn't stand
up for the values that have been instilled in me
and the beliefs that I have. You shouldn't enter public
life if you're willing to blow with the wind. You
should be standing up for values and principles that are universal.
(07:13):
And I always tried to do that in public life.
Standing up for evidence, standing up for facts, standing up
for the idea of handing our planet to our kids
better than we found it. So, you know, people could
try and bully me and intimidate me, but they were
wasting their time. I believed in what I was doing.
I believed it was the right thing to do for
the state. And I still believe that it's in the
(07:34):
interests of New South Wales and indeed Australia, that we
put policies in place that will hand our planet to
our kids better than we found it, whilst growing our prosperity.
That's something that we should all be able to agree on,
but unfortunately, there are many vested interests that want to
protect their own profits and their own book at the
expense of the community.
S2 (07:52):
Yes. And indeed, you're not going to sort of change
their position or change their minds no matter what kind
of array of facts and and truth telling that you
you roll out.
S3 (08:03):
Well, that's exactly right. People are entitled to their views,
but they're not entitled to their own facts. And I
always try to stick to the facts and the evidence
and the evidence when it comes to climate policy, is
that the more CO2 we put into the atmosphere, the
more we increase the chances of dangerous global warming and
more extreme weather events these things will have. They're already
(08:25):
having catastrophic impacts on lives and livelihoods. And the good
news is, though, is that we can still do something
about it. By taking action to dramatically reduce carbon emissions.
We can protect our planet and our future from the
worst impacts of climate change. But also while rolling out
(08:47):
technologies like renewable energy, electric vehicles and things like that,
we can improve our standard of living, we can drive
investment into our country, and we can underwrite a new
era of economic prosperity for our nation. And that's a
chance that I think is too big to pass up
so we can be good for the planet, whilst also
growing the economy. And those that say that we can't. Well,
I question their motives and I'd suggest that they're trying
(09:09):
to protect old vested interests. Mhm.
S2 (09:12):
You're going against quite a wall of resistance there. Let's
go back to your childhood mat. Just a bit of
a change of gear here because some your childhood had
a big impact on your climate view of the world.
You always like nature. You used to walk as a
kid through, um, Berowra Valley National Park before it was
(09:33):
a national park. So it's personal for you that that
that transition into a national park. So tell us a
little about that.
S3 (09:39):
It is very personal for me. I mean, that was
our backyard growing up. The national parks. That's where we
went on holidays. That's where we'd spend our downtime on weekends,
bushwalking and learning about nature. Being in nature, that was
that was where I grew up, and that's the community
that I ended up representing as the member for Hornsby.
These are people that love the bush. That's why they
(10:02):
choose to live in that part of the world. So
as the local member, you know, acting on climate change,
acting to protect nature was not out of step with
my liberal values. It was completely in step with the
values of my community. And and that's why I was
so proud to be an advocate and a warrior for
(10:23):
protection of nature, for strong environmental protection, and for action
on climate change.
S2 (10:27):
And there's a little special pocket of majestic blue gums
in that park.
S3 (10:33):
There is. And for those wanting to go to an
idyllic and a magnificent part of our Australian bushland, then
the Barossa Valley National Park is truly special. Most people
will know it because they are the Great North Walk
goes through there. So from Lane Cove up to Newcastle,
(10:53):
it's incredible part of bushland, which I was very proud
to advocate for stronger protections and we were able to
upgrade the status of that wonderful piece of nature from
a regional park to a national park, protecting it in
perpetuity for future generations. And that's something I'm immensely proud of.
S2 (11:11):
Would it be your singular, most proud moment getting that
declared as a national park?
S3 (11:17):
It was really special because that's going to outlive, um,
my time on this earth, that's going to be there
for future generations to be able to enjoy forever. And
that's that's an incredible thing that I'm very proud of.
The government I'm part I was part of, should be
very proud of. And I think the community and Hornsby
(11:39):
and those that love nature should be proud of. So again,
this is a special part of Australia. It's got remnant
blue gum, high forest. Huge amounts of biodiversity which we've
been able to protect in perpetuity. And yes, I'm very
proud of that.
S2 (11:55):
Now, you came from a very loving family. In fact,
one of the quite moving anecdotes in our Good Weekend
story is that when you called your dad to tell
him the good news that you'd been made Minister for
energy and the environment. So tell us about what happened,
what his reaction was.
S3 (12:13):
Yeah. Well, um, so we'd won the 2019 election and
Gladys Berejiklian asked me to be her Minister for Energy
and Environment. And at the time, I was kind of
shocked because I thought I'd upset her. This was at
the height of the climate wars in the Liberal Party.
I think Malcolm Turnbull had just been deposed, the National
Energy Guarantee had been ripped up. And I thought, oh
(12:35):
my God, what have I done to upset the Premier,
who was my my friend and my mentor, but it
was incredibly special for our family. My father started his
career in energy and electricity at the then Sydney County Council.
He started as a clerk and he spent his entire
career over 40 years there working in the energy sector. Um, now,
(12:59):
when I called. So as soon as Gladys got off
the phone with me, I called mum and dad and
dad answered the phone and I told him the news
that I'd been asked to serve New South Wales as
the Minister for energy, and dad went silent. I've never
heard my dad silent before, but, um, he handed the
phone to mum and mum said, oh, he's in tears. Um,
so it was a very, very special moment for me.
(13:22):
And I guess the, the story is that dad spent
his whole career trying to build the energy system which
served our state and our country so well, and I
represent a new generation trying to build our energy system
that will serve our state and our nation for future generations.
(13:43):
So hopefully I've done him proud and hopefully I've done
the people of New South Wales a service in setting
us up for future success as we transition from older
technology to newer technology.
S2 (13:55):
I always wonder about how people handle the media and
and when you when when you've got a public profile,
what your parents must feel when they see you kind
of knocked down and criticised in the public space. How
do you deal? How have you dealt with the media
over the years? The Murdoch press in Australia has been
pushing climate change denialism. Um, seeing it as part of
(14:18):
their conservative position as a newspaper for a decades. Um,
you've been long been a magnet for outrage. Um, I'm
thinking of the most incendiary stuff often came from Alan Jones.
Tell me about how you dealt with that. And maybe
give an example with Alan Jones. For argument's sake.
S3 (14:37):
Well, Alan was always very good to me, and I
had a very good relationship with him personally. But we
had very different views on this topic, and I think
that story is one that was I tried to make
sure was representative of my time in politics, that you
could have different views with people, but you could be
(15:00):
respectful about it. So there are plenty of people that
don't agree with me on a whole range of things,
but that doesn't mean that I was disrespectful to them.
I always try and front up and argue my case,
whether it be with climate deniers or climate believers. I
think that's the role of public servants like me to
front up to explain the decisions that I had made
(15:21):
and how I'd drawn those conclusions, and to enter into
public debate. That's what makes our democracy strong. But I mean,
with regard to some of those views, I mean, much
like climate science. There's signal and there's noise, and climate
deniers fit the latter type. A clue is the absence
of of people with real experience, in their opinion, rants
(15:45):
or on their pet panels. You know, I deal with
the facts. I speak to the specialists. Climate deniers might
try that for a novelty at least. Fortunately, most Australians
accept the climate is changing and understand the role humans play,
whether it's burning fossil fuels or other emitting activity. So again,
I'll continue to speak up for the facts. And I'd
suggest to those climate deniers they try that for a change.
S2 (16:07):
Yeah. Sometimes the climate change deniers are backtrack a little
bit and just say, oh, I'm just a I'm just
a climate change skeptic. I don't think there's enough evidence
that's shifted a bit in recent years, but it was
very much the kind of the, the position that many,
you know, what they described as climate change sceptics took. Um,
but of course, it's a, it's a bunch of hooey really,
(16:29):
because climate change Skepticism is Israeli climate change denial isn't it?
Doesn't amount to the same thing.
S4 (16:36):
Well, it.
S3 (16:37):
Is pretty much the same thing. I mean, the facts
are pretty clear. The overwhelming majority of the world's scientists
and peak scientific bodies are unequivocal about this. So we
either trust the scientific knowledge and human reliance on science.
There's propelled us to where we are today as a civilization,
(16:57):
or we pick and choose which bits we like. I
know that science has underpin our advancement as a civilization,
and I'm willing to back the science, and I think
that's what we should get behind.
S2 (17:08):
So we had many years of confused policy coming out
of Canberra, climate change denialism, climate change scepticism and all
this amounted to a kind of road blocking on action
in this country, on climate change. And of course, it
also created a lot of uncertainty for businesses. In fact,
(17:30):
you could argue that it hobbled Australia's economy for some years.
What's your take on that?
S3 (17:36):
Well, I think the physics trumps politics and money beats rhetoric.
And much like King Canute, people like Donald Trump is
yelling at a rising tide. You know, sure, some US
projects will be stopped and cancelling offshore wind permits will happen,
as Trump has done. They'll generate a lot of headlines,
but I'm confident that companies investors will look through the
(17:57):
fog of this climate skirmish and remain on the hunt
for its profitable over the longer term, sustainable investment in
both senses of the word. Will there be casualties and setbacks?
Of course. Gutting climate science and sacking meteorologists won't just
hurt the United States. The past generosity of US open
source science, whether it's monitoring coral bleaching in the Great
(18:18):
Barrier Reef or the changing salinity and temperature of the
Southern Ocean, has been a boon for Australians. Other global
agencies can fill some of the void and Australia will
have to step up too, as it's very much in
our interest to do so. But what I will say
is that I'm optimistic, but also realistic. We hope the Americans,
we hope that business, with their enormous talent and often
(18:41):
abundant kindness and goodwill, will rejoin this march of history
as soon as possible.
S2 (18:46):
But you can argue that within Australia itself, because of
prime ministers like Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison, that businesses
within Australia were unsure, weren't weren't sure footed because they
were getting all this climate change denialism coming out of Canberra.
So did we lose some precious years of, um, of, um,
(19:10):
technological and economic development on reducing emissions through that very
what you call, I guess, federal roadblocks of sorts.
S3 (19:18):
Well, there's no doubt about that. I mean, uncertainty is
risk for business. It means they won't invest, they won't
deploy their capital, and that means you're not going to
see new capacity built into our energy system, new innovations
being available to businesses and families across Australia. So what
we need is policy certainty. And the way to achieve
(19:40):
that is finding a bipartisan approach to getting that done.
That's what we did in New South Wales. I reached
across the aisle. I worked not only with my colleagues
in the Liberal Party and the National Party, but we
built a grand coalition with the Labor Party, the independents,
everyone across the New South Wales Parliament to legislate the
biggest renewable energy policy in the nation's history. And it's
(20:01):
already stood the test of time. It survived one political cycle,
and it will continue to survive political cycles because we
brought people together to legislate it in the state's interest.
And my message to those listening today is we need
more politicians willing to act in the national and community interest,
rather than their own political interests. That's how we'll get
(20:24):
things done. That's how we'll set our country up for
the long term. And that's something that I'll continue to
try and be a champion for in my role as
the independent climate chair.
S2 (20:43):
Now, Matt Kean, I'm going to put on a climate
change deniers cap, and I'm going to put to you
some of the arguments that, um, that they roll out.
So I'm interested in what your responses are going to be.
Government policies designed to reduce emissions are bad for business
(21:03):
for profit margins, especially in a country like Australia, which
has rich deposits of coal and gas deposits we depend
on for our wealth. So, uh, why are we letting
climate change, ah, reduce the, uh, trajectory of our economy?
S3 (21:23):
Well, it's a ridiculous argument. I mean, curbing asbestos was
bad for that industry also. And tobacco companies would have
a smoke more too. The reality is that the great
bulk of remaining fossil fuels need to stay where they've
set said for many millions of years just fine. Australia's
rich range of minerals, though, means that we can continue
(21:44):
to benefit from the flukes of nature. We're a diversified
economy and that diversity extends to our dirt. And if
we're smart, we can also do a better job at
refining or processing more of what we dig up than
we have in the past. So there are huge economic
opportunities to be had as the world transitions to a
cleaner economy, and there's no country on the planet better
(22:06):
placed to win that race than Australia. We've got an
abundance of natural advantages from our wind and our solar,
our renewable energy resource. We've got a huge landmass to
be able to host that infrastructure, and doing so, we
can get some of the cheapest energy anywhere in the world,
and that will underwrite a new era of prosperity for
energy intensive businesses, manufacturing industry, um, giving us a competitive advantage.
(22:30):
That means jobs, it means investment, and that means economic growth.
So to those deniers that say this is bad for business, well,
let me say, uh, what's bad for business is holding
back the tide of capital and the reality that the
world is moving on this and the markets that have
underwritten our prosperity for generations want different goods, services and
(22:52):
capital from Australia, and we're really well placed to provide it.
So let's get on the train and grow our economy
whilst protecting our planet.
S2 (23:00):
Climate change deniers cap still firmly on. We keep hearing
this term green energy superpower Australia has this this potential.
But how would that possibly play out? Because we're not
going to be exporting solar power at not at least
not in the near future. And most of our panels
are coming from China. Anyway, so how on earth do
(23:21):
we become this green superpower?
S3 (23:24):
Well, we take advantage of our rich natural resources. Our
wind and solar, and our renewable energy opportunity will give
us some of the cheapest, reliable, clean energy anywhere on
the planet that will underwrite a competitive advantage for heavy industry,
for manufacturing, for energy intensive processes. That means we'll have
(23:45):
a competitive advantage selling those goods and services into the
markets that are demanding them. Think Japan. Think Korea. Those
economies that have underwritten Australia's prosperity for generations. They're changing
the types of things that they want in their global markets.
And again, we're really well placed to provide them. And
in doing so that means jobs for Australia, that means
investment in Australia and that means economic growth for Australia.
(24:07):
It's too big an opportunity for us to pass up.
S2 (24:10):
There are still scientists still wearing my cap here. There
are still scientists out there who dismiss or downgrade the
risks of climate change, so why should we disbelieve them?
You know, there's scientists who say that the problem is
being exaggerated. Not a lot, but they're still out there.
S3 (24:28):
Well, Greg, name a science academy in the world that
hasn't joined the obvious dots. If objects stop falling towards
the earth or the laws of thermodynamics suddenly broke, we
might have reason to challenge the first principles of science.
In any case, let them explain why the world's oceans
have heated up, lifting sea levels in the process without
global warming, or explain away the imbalance between the energy
(24:51):
reaching the planet and what is radiated back to space,
thanks to the thickening greenhouse gas blanket. Then their arguments
might be worth debating. They can't say they aren't, and
we should just move on.
S2 (25:02):
No matter what Australia does with reducing our carbon emissions
on a global scale, it's unlikely, really, that we can
make any big difference because we contribute less than 2%
of global emissions.
S3 (25:15):
Well, that's like saying Australian troops would only be a
fraction of the Empire's forces in World War One, or
the Allies in World War Two. So why bother joining that?
That global effort actually taking into account our big exports
of coal and gas, we make up more like 5%
(25:35):
of global emissions, even if others burn a lot of
it on a per capita basis. One of the largest
were one of the largest polluters on the planet, pushing
above our weight in a bad way. We're also relatively
wealthy and historically have contributed an outsized share of emissions.
We also live in a beautiful nature that is at
the mercy of a volatile climate. Take rainfall, for example.
(25:57):
Before we add to the mix an energized atmosphere, it's
very much in our interest to coax other nations to
reduce emissions, and we can hardly do that by sitting
on the sidelines until others take the lead.
S2 (26:09):
We're now entering. Still with my climate change deniers hat on.
We're entering a very uncertain world now. We've really seen
that in the last couple of months. The global balance
of power is changing quickly, appears to be moving away
from the West. We could soon be facing a world
in which every country is some vying for itself. Australia
(26:31):
is particularly vulnerable because of our geography, also because of
what's been happening with America and national and and our
future national sovereignty. So why should we prioritise climate change
policy when we've got so many other damn serious issues
to deal with.
S3 (26:48):
Because it's in our national and international interest to do so?
An international arms race would be costly and not make
us safer, while diverting resources away from the race to decarbonise. Certainly,
it will be hard to avoid the vortex of violence
or the threat of it, which is why we must
do our best to ensure the current, uh, emissions dissipate
(27:09):
rather than expand. We've already locked in our current generation
and probably the next couple into dangerous climate change. Future
Australians and other nationalities will look back in anger if
we haven't done what we could, to spare them of
every fraction of a degree of warming that we could.
It's not like we have ignorance as an excuse on
this topic. We need a coalition of the willing when
(27:30):
it comes to halting climate change, and I'm certainly going
to continue to be part of that so long as
I'm around.
S2 (27:37):
Do you think that, um, attitudes towards climate change are
maturing now? I mean, it was only a few years
ago that, um, Scott Morrison famously held up that piece
of coal in Parliament saying, don't be scared, don't be afraid. Um, well,
at that time, we weren't so much scared as really
(27:58):
confused by what he was trying to say. But do
you ever, um, do you think that that since that
time and certainly, um, actually, Malcolm Turnbull, of course, preceded him,
but do you think that that the public attitude towards
climate change. The understanding of climate change has has grown.
And you think public acceptance that yes, this is happening
(28:19):
and yes, it's a serious problem has grown.
S3 (28:22):
I think absolutely. That's the case. I mean, we certainly
saw that after the 2019 bushfires, the worst bushfires that
we'd ever seen in New South Wales. We saw the
Morrison government defeated largely on the back of not having
strong enough climate policies. Again, at this election, we've just
(28:42):
seen Alfred the cyclone roll through, and there has been
an increase in concern about whether or not our major
political parties have the policies needed to address these challenges
now and into the future. So I think that the
public does understand that our warming climate is having an
effect on our lives and our livelihoods. You can't not
(29:07):
see the images of people huddling on the beach in
the middle of summer to avoid these huge blazes. You
can't not unsee people's homes being carried away by floodwaters
in the northern rivers. This is the reality that scientists
have been telling us about for decades. So the public
(29:27):
understand this, and I think you'll continue to see politicians
and political parties rewarded when they put forward policies that
take this matter seriously, but do it in a way
that is in our economic interest as well. You can
take strong action to reduce emissions while also growing our economy.
And I think we proved that as a liberal national
(29:49):
government in New South Wales, we continued our economic growth.
We continued to manage the budget responsibly, maintaining our state's
Triple-A credit rating and putting us on a path to
budget surplus whilst taking some of the most progressive climate
policies anywhere in the nation. And for those that you,
the people that say you can't do both. We proved
them wrong in New South Wales.
S2 (30:10):
Why do you think that there was this disjunct between
the New South Wales state government and your influence, perhaps
on the issue of climate change and at the federal level?
Because it seems like the New South Wales was, was
moving ahead in this, this area, but the federal government,
not so much.
S3 (30:31):
Well, I'll generously say that the New South Wales economy
is different to the national economy. So we don't have
as much mining here in New South Wales as maybe, say,
Queensland or Western Australia. So the attitudes of those communities
are are a bit different. That said, we do have
a lot of thermal coal here, but we recognise that
(30:51):
global markets are changing and we need to plan for
the future. And you can't fatten a pig on market day.
As the coal sales from New South Wales diminish to
the global marketplace, we need to be preparing for the
industries that will replace them. And the benefit is, is
for our transition that new industries are emerging, which we
(31:14):
can create here in New South Wales, indeed in Australia,
creating jobs, driving investment, growing our economy. So we manage
the risk of changing global demand by building, seizing the
opportunities that are being presented by these global megatrends. That's
good government, that's good management. Businesses that see the future,
(31:36):
manage the risks of the present are the ones that survive.
Those that don't. Well, we all saw what happened with Kodak.
S2 (31:43):
Um, many, many of us in Australia have already been
directly affected by climate change. I have family in Lismore,
in the Northern Rivers, the bushfires of January 2020 and
the recent floods and the 2022 floods in the northern rivers, um,
they've been they've had very devastating effects on people. Has
(32:03):
there been any time, Matt Keen that you've been directly
affected for argument's sake, during the the bushfires in in
2020 and early 2020 did where you were living at
the time in the northern suburbs of Sydney?
S4 (32:17):
Well, I mean, it had a.
S3 (32:20):
Huge impact on my thinking. The 2020 bushfires happened at
the time that my son Tom was born. It was
my first child, and I remember walking out of the
birthing suite and walking out of Hornsby Hospital, seeing my
whole community shrouded in smoke. Now, that wasn't my childhood experience,
(32:43):
and I didn't want it to be my son's childhood
experience or anyone else's son or daughter's childhood experience. And
as I said earlier, um, taking action on climate change
is not something we can put off to the future.
By taking action today, we can leave a better future
for my son and everyone's sons and daughters. And that's
(33:07):
something that is incumbent on all of us to do. So, uh,
climate change, those extreme weather events, they have had a
profound impact on me. And they certainly shaped my thinking
in wanting to fight for stronger action on climate change
so that we can meet our responsibilities to the next
generation and the generations that follow, and that is to
(33:29):
hand them a planet better than we found it. We
can do that whilst also growing the economy. And that's
when my North Star, since I entered politics.
S2 (33:37):
Is a part of that. You're being able to say
to your son or you've got a daughter since then, I.
S3 (33:43):
Think we're about to have a daughter. We're, we're, we're
expecting in mid-May, so.
S2 (33:48):
Oh, really? Oh, lovely.
S3 (33:49):
Yeah. So a little girl.
S2 (33:51):
Okay. So as part of this, um, you're being able
to say if things get a lot worse. Of course,
in the coming years, as they get older. I've done
my bit, I this is what I have done for
your generation. Whether it's worked or not is for you
to decide.
S3 (34:09):
Well, I, I didn't want to be sitting in a
nursing home with regrets about wasting the moment that I
had to make our planet better, our community better, and
our economy stronger. And, uh, you know, I, I when
I was putting in policies to do those things, I
was thinking about my son and everyone else's children and
(34:31):
the generations that will come after them. And I hope
that when I leave the stage, um, people will say,
New South Wales, our country is better because he had
a crack. Um, now there are lots of people doing
lots of good things, but I hope that I've helped
make a difference in this space, and I'll continue to
try and make a difference in this space.
S2 (34:52):
So what's ahead of Matt Kean, given we've got federal
elections coming up pretty quickly? Um, your chair of the
Climate Change Authority. You're again, um, taking taking this very
important issue into the public space. What's what's the future
for Matt Kean?
S3 (35:11):
Well, who knows what the future holds. But what I
will say is that I'll continue to be an advocate
for strong climate action in a way that helps grow
our economy and our nation's prosperity. So whether that's as chair,
as the climate authority, or whether that's as just a
citizen of our country, this is something that I believe in.
(35:32):
I think it's a huge opportunity for our nation, and
that I want to make sure that we can grab
with both hands. So I'll continue to be a champion
for that effort in whatever capacity I find myself in.
But again, who knows what the future holds. But I'll
keep continuing to do my best to stand up for facts,
to stand up for evidence, and to fight for a
(35:54):
better future for our country.
S2 (35:56):
Matt Kean, thank you very much.
S3 (35:57):
Thanks, Greg.
S1 (36:00):
That was Matt Keen talking with the acting editor of
Good Weekend, Greg Callahan on the latest Good Weekend talks.
Coming soon. We chat with Andrew Abdo, the CEO of
the resurgent National Rugby League, hot off their season opening
foray into Sin City. If you enjoyed this episode, please
remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your
(36:20):
podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations. Good
Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning
Herald and The Age proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to
support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?
This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad
Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from
(36:43):
Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick
is head of audio and Greg Callahan is the acting
editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:29):
stories of the day. In this episode, we speak with
Matt Kean, the former New South Wales state politician was
once a deputy Liberal leader, treasurer and Minister for Energy
and Environment, but he's now chair of the National Climate
Change Authority. That means Kean helped set the Australian agenda
for the fight against global warming by shaping federal policies
(00:51):
and laws on every hot button green issue imaginable. Taking
on the job was seen in some quarters by conservative commentators,
mostly as a traitorous move by a climate communist, now
known to some as Green Keen. Our new climate change
czar is the subject of a feature profile in the
magazine this week, force of nature and hosting this conversation
(01:13):
about the powerful enemies Keane now faces and the fight
to save our natural world, is the acting editor of
Good Weekend, Greg Callahan.
S2 (01:23):
Thank you, Conrad, and welcome Matt Keane.
S3 (01:26):
Good morning Greg.
S2 (01:27):
Now, last year you announced your retirement from politics. The
coalition was no longer in power, and it must have
been pretty damn dull. Sitting in opposition after a pretty
prestigious career as New South Wales Treasurer, Deputy Premier, Minister
of Energy and the environment and so forth. So why
why did you quit?
S3 (01:47):
Well, I think the number one reason was that I
had a young son and a young family, and I
wanted to make sure that I didn't miss out on
him growing up as Treasurer of New South Wales, my
partner was a single mum virtually, and my son saw
me on TV more than he saw me in person.
So I think going into opposition gave me a chance
(02:07):
to reflect on what my priorities were, and I wanted
to be a better dad and a better partner. So
thinking about that and whether I could make that work
in full time politics, I made a decision to try
my hand at something else and see if I could
make an impact in the climate space outside of elected politics.
(02:28):
And fortunately, an opportunity came along for me to do that.
S2 (02:31):
And it must have been pretty proud for your son
to see his old man on the telly.
S3 (02:36):
Yeah, I think he he just takes it for granted. Like, oh,
everyone's on the telly. Of course dad, I was on
a show the other night and I said, oh, make
sure you watch daddy on the show. He's like, no, no,
I'm not going to do that.
S2 (02:50):
He's had enough.
S3 (02:51):
He's had enough.
S2 (02:52):
Yeah. So, so in August last year, standing on the
podium of Parliament House beside Anthony Albanese, the prime Minister,
of course. He announced that you were the new chair
of the Climate Change Authority. Of course, this sent many
conservative right wing members, particularly the Liberal Party, into, um,
(03:13):
you know, a spin. And it got a little bit nasty,
didn't it? You got some called a few names.
S3 (03:19):
Well, um, I did, but I think the point is
that I'm not here to take sides. I'm here to
speak up for the science, the facts and good climate policy.
And quite frankly, if people don't like the facts, then
they should get better policies. Um, people can hurl insults.
They can call me names. That's fine. But if you
(03:41):
think that bullying me is going to influence me, then
you're wasting your time. I'm here to make sure that
we stand up for evidence based climate policy. And that's
what I'll continue to do. That's what I did as
a minister in the New South Wales government. And that's
what I'll do as the independent chair of the climate authority.
And I'll make this point to the science can't be bullied.
Values can't be bullied. People can do their worst to me,
(04:05):
but I'll keep doing my job.
S2 (04:07):
Mm. Oh, well, that's not the case in America, though,
is it? Um, climate change issues are being kind of
bullied out of the public space. The media is on
the defensive there. It's, um. You know, Trump has withdrawn
from the Paris Agreement. It's not. It's not great. In fact,
you could be forgiven for thinking that bullies do win sometimes.
S3 (04:27):
Well, that doesn't have to be the case. And we
need more political leaders to stand up for the national interest,
rather than their own political interests or for vested interests.
And for too long, particularly in the climate space, we've
seen vested interests like the Minerals Council. We've seen, you know,
the fossil fuel lobby, uh, holding power over our elected
(04:48):
representatives at the expense of the community and the planet.
And I'll continue to fight for the community and the
planet against vested interests.
S2 (04:56):
Can you describe just a little bit of maybe an
example or two, without naming names of that of, of
some of those conflicts you had when you were actually
in Parliament, when you were representing? Um, you know, a
member of the Liberal Party, a Conservative party, uh, but
obviously your own principles were slightly at odds with, um,
(05:19):
some of the views of your colleagues. Can you just
give an example of a couple of the, um, maybe
conflicts you had? Was it was it whether nasty words
in emails, cowardly emails or on social media, or did
people just, you know, front up to you face to face.
S3 (05:33):
All of the above. But that's not going to influence me.
What's going to influence me is the evidence and the
facts and what's in the state's interest and the national interest.
And that's that was my North Star. But if you
want an example, I mean, a perfect example is when
we put a cap on the price of coal in
New South Wales. That was as a result of the invasion,
(05:57):
illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, which saw the wholesale
price of coal rise by 360%. Now, we couldn't allow
New South Wales consumers to be hit with that increase,
so we capped the price of coal. And I remember
the head of the Minerals Council at the time telling
me he's going to get me. Now that didn't change
my view. That didn't influence me. I acted in the
(06:19):
public interest rather than for vested interests. So, um, are
people in the positions that I held are there to
act for the public good, and I can sleep very
well at night knowing I did exactly that.
S2 (06:32):
Well, it's great that you can sleep at night, because
my next question was, was simply when you're, um, confronted
and bullied at that kind of level, um, it can
be intimidating. And even though you, you might brush it
aside and skate over it during the day, often these
things catch up with you at night when you're trying
to unwind and rest.
S3 (06:52):
I think I wouldn't sleep well if I didn't stand
up for the values that have been instilled in me
and the beliefs that I have. You shouldn't enter public
life if you're willing to blow with the wind. You
should be standing up for values and principles that are universal.
(07:13):
And I always tried to do that in public life.
Standing up for evidence, standing up for facts, standing up
for the idea of handing our planet to our kids
better than we found it. So, you know, people could
try and bully me and intimidate me, but they were
wasting their time. I believed in what I was doing.
I believed it was the right thing to do for
the state. And I still believe that it's in the
(07:34):
interests of New South Wales and indeed Australia, that we
put policies in place that will hand our planet to
our kids better than we found it, whilst growing our prosperity.
That's something that we should all be able to agree on,
but unfortunately, there are many vested interests that want to
protect their own profits and their own book at the
expense of the community.
S2 (07:52):
Yes. And indeed, you're not going to sort of change
their position or change their minds no matter what kind
of array of facts and and truth telling that you
you roll out.
S3 (08:03):
Well, that's exactly right. People are entitled to their views,
but they're not entitled to their own facts. And I
always try to stick to the facts and the evidence
and the evidence when it comes to climate policy, is
that the more CO2 we put into the atmosphere, the
more we increase the chances of dangerous global warming and
more extreme weather events these things will have. They're already
(08:25):
having catastrophic impacts on lives and livelihoods. And the good
news is, though, is that we can still do something
about it. By taking action to dramatically reduce carbon emissions.
We can protect our planet and our future from the
worst impacts of climate change. But also while rolling out
(08:47):
technologies like renewable energy, electric vehicles and things like that,
we can improve our standard of living, we can drive
investment into our country, and we can underwrite a new
era of economic prosperity for our nation. And that's a
chance that I think is too big to pass up
so we can be good for the planet, whilst also
growing the economy. And those that say that we can't. Well,
I question their motives and I'd suggest that they're trying
(09:09):
to protect old vested interests. Mhm.
S2 (09:12):
You're going against quite a wall of resistance there. Let's
go back to your childhood mat. Just a bit of
a change of gear here because some your childhood had
a big impact on your climate view of the world.
You always like nature. You used to walk as a
kid through, um, Berowra Valley National Park before it was
(09:33):
a national park. So it's personal for you that that
that transition into a national park. So tell us a
little about that.
S3 (09:39):
It is very personal for me. I mean, that was
our backyard growing up. The national parks. That's where we
went on holidays. That's where we'd spend our downtime on weekends,
bushwalking and learning about nature. Being in nature, that was
that was where I grew up, and that's the community
that I ended up representing as the member for Hornsby.
These are people that love the bush. That's why they
(10:02):
choose to live in that part of the world. So
as the local member, you know, acting on climate change,
acting to protect nature was not out of step with
my liberal values. It was completely in step with the
values of my community. And and that's why I was
so proud to be an advocate and a warrior for
(10:23):
protection of nature, for strong environmental protection, and for action
on climate change.
S2 (10:27):
And there's a little special pocket of majestic blue gums
in that park.
S3 (10:33):
There is. And for those wanting to go to an
idyllic and a magnificent part of our Australian bushland, then
the Barossa Valley National Park is truly special. Most people
will know it because they are the Great North Walk
goes through there. So from Lane Cove up to Newcastle,
(10:53):
it's incredible part of bushland, which I was very proud
to advocate for stronger protections and we were able to
upgrade the status of that wonderful piece of nature from
a regional park to a national park, protecting it in
perpetuity for future generations. And that's something I'm immensely proud of.
S2 (11:11):
Would it be your singular, most proud moment getting that
declared as a national park?
S3 (11:17):
It was really special because that's going to outlive, um,
my time on this earth, that's going to be there
for future generations to be able to enjoy forever. And
that's that's an incredible thing that I'm very proud of.
The government I'm part I was part of, should be
very proud of. And I think the community and Hornsby
(11:39):
and those that love nature should be proud of. So again,
this is a special part of Australia. It's got remnant
blue gum, high forest. Huge amounts of biodiversity which we've
been able to protect in perpetuity. And yes, I'm very
proud of that.
S2 (11:55):
Now, you came from a very loving family. In fact,
one of the quite moving anecdotes in our Good Weekend
story is that when you called your dad to tell
him the good news that you'd been made Minister for
energy and the environment. So tell us about what happened,
what his reaction was.
S3 (12:13):
Yeah. Well, um, so we'd won the 2019 election and
Gladys Berejiklian asked me to be her Minister for Energy
and Environment. And at the time, I was kind of
shocked because I thought I'd upset her. This was at
the height of the climate wars in the Liberal Party.
I think Malcolm Turnbull had just been deposed, the National
Energy Guarantee had been ripped up. And I thought, oh
(12:35):
my God, what have I done to upset the Premier,
who was my my friend and my mentor, but it
was incredibly special for our family. My father started his
career in energy and electricity at the then Sydney County Council.
He started as a clerk and he spent his entire
career over 40 years there working in the energy sector. Um, now,
(12:59):
when I called. So as soon as Gladys got off
the phone with me, I called mum and dad and
dad answered the phone and I told him the news
that I'd been asked to serve New South Wales as
the Minister for energy, and dad went silent. I've never
heard my dad silent before, but, um, he handed the
phone to mum and mum said, oh, he's in tears. Um,
so it was a very, very special moment for me.
(13:22):
And I guess the, the story is that dad spent
his whole career trying to build the energy system which
served our state and our country so well, and I
represent a new generation trying to build our energy system
that will serve our state and our nation for future generations.
(13:43):
So hopefully I've done him proud and hopefully I've done
the people of New South Wales a service in setting
us up for future success as we transition from older
technology to newer technology.
S2 (13:55):
I always wonder about how people handle the media and
and when you when when you've got a public profile,
what your parents must feel when they see you kind
of knocked down and criticised in the public space. How
do you deal? How have you dealt with the media
over the years? The Murdoch press in Australia has been
pushing climate change denialism. Um, seeing it as part of
(14:18):
their conservative position as a newspaper for a decades. Um,
you've been long been a magnet for outrage. Um, I'm
thinking of the most incendiary stuff often came from Alan Jones.
Tell me about how you dealt with that. And maybe
give an example with Alan Jones. For argument's sake.
S3 (14:37):
Well, Alan was always very good to me, and I
had a very good relationship with him personally. But we
had very different views on this topic, and I think
that story is one that was I tried to make
sure was representative of my time in politics, that you
could have different views with people, but you could be
(15:00):
respectful about it. So there are plenty of people that
don't agree with me on a whole range of things,
but that doesn't mean that I was disrespectful to them.
I always try and front up and argue my case,
whether it be with climate deniers or climate believers. I
think that's the role of public servants like me to
front up to explain the decisions that I had made
(15:21):
and how I'd drawn those conclusions, and to enter into
public debate. That's what makes our democracy strong. But I mean,
with regard to some of those views, I mean, much
like climate science. There's signal and there's noise, and climate
deniers fit the latter type. A clue is the absence
of of people with real experience, in their opinion, rants
(15:45):
or on their pet panels. You know, I deal with
the facts. I speak to the specialists. Climate deniers might
try that for a novelty at least. Fortunately, most Australians
accept the climate is changing and understand the role humans play,
whether it's burning fossil fuels or other emitting activity. So again,
I'll continue to speak up for the facts. And I'd
suggest to those climate deniers they try that for a change.
S2 (16:07):
Yeah. Sometimes the climate change deniers are backtrack a little
bit and just say, oh, I'm just a I'm just
a climate change skeptic. I don't think there's enough evidence
that's shifted a bit in recent years, but it was
very much the kind of the, the position that many,
you know, what they described as climate change sceptics took. Um,
but of course, it's a, it's a bunch of hooey really,
(16:29):
because climate change Skepticism is Israeli climate change denial isn't it?
Doesn't amount to the same thing.
S4 (16:36):
Well, it.
S3 (16:37):
Is pretty much the same thing. I mean, the facts
are pretty clear. The overwhelming majority of the world's scientists
and peak scientific bodies are unequivocal about this. So we
either trust the scientific knowledge and human reliance on science.
There's propelled us to where we are today as a civilization,
(16:57):
or we pick and choose which bits we like. I
know that science has underpin our advancement as a civilization,
and I'm willing to back the science, and I think
that's what we should get behind.
S2 (17:08):
So we had many years of confused policy coming out
of Canberra, climate change denialism, climate change scepticism and all
this amounted to a kind of road blocking on action
in this country, on climate change. And of course, it
also created a lot of uncertainty for businesses. In fact,
(17:30):
you could argue that it hobbled Australia's economy for some years.
What's your take on that?
S3 (17:36):
Well, I think the physics trumps politics and money beats rhetoric.
And much like King Canute, people like Donald Trump is
yelling at a rising tide. You know, sure, some US
projects will be stopped and cancelling offshore wind permits will happen,
as Trump has done. They'll generate a lot of headlines,
but I'm confident that companies investors will look through the
(17:57):
fog of this climate skirmish and remain on the hunt
for its profitable over the longer term, sustainable investment in
both senses of the word. Will there be casualties and setbacks?
Of course. Gutting climate science and sacking meteorologists won't just
hurt the United States. The past generosity of US open
source science, whether it's monitoring coral bleaching in the Great
(18:18):
Barrier Reef or the changing salinity and temperature of the
Southern Ocean, has been a boon for Australians. Other global
agencies can fill some of the void and Australia will
have to step up too, as it's very much in
our interest to do so. But what I will say
is that I'm optimistic, but also realistic. We hope the Americans,
we hope that business, with their enormous talent and often
(18:41):
abundant kindness and goodwill, will rejoin this march of history
as soon as possible.
S2 (18:46):
But you can argue that within Australia itself, because of
prime ministers like Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison, that businesses
within Australia were unsure, weren't weren't sure footed because they
were getting all this climate change denialism coming out of Canberra.
So did we lose some precious years of, um, of, um,
(19:10):
technological and economic development on reducing emissions through that very
what you call, I guess, federal roadblocks of sorts.
S3 (19:18):
Well, there's no doubt about that. I mean, uncertainty is
risk for business. It means they won't invest, they won't
deploy their capital, and that means you're not going to
see new capacity built into our energy system, new innovations
being available to businesses and families across Australia. So what
we need is policy certainty. And the way to achieve
(19:40):
that is finding a bipartisan approach to getting that done.
That's what we did in New South Wales. I reached
across the aisle. I worked not only with my colleagues
in the Liberal Party and the National Party, but we
built a grand coalition with the Labor Party, the independents,
everyone across the New South Wales Parliament to legislate the
biggest renewable energy policy in the nation's history. And it's
(20:01):
already stood the test of time. It survived one political cycle,
and it will continue to survive political cycles because we
brought people together to legislate it in the state's interest.
And my message to those listening today is we need
more politicians willing to act in the national and community interest,
rather than their own political interests. That's how we'll get
(20:24):
things done. That's how we'll set our country up for
the long term. And that's something that I'll continue to
try and be a champion for in my role as
the independent climate chair.
S2 (20:43):
Now, Matt Kean, I'm going to put on a climate
change deniers cap, and I'm going to put to you
some of the arguments that, um, that they roll out.
So I'm interested in what your responses are going to be.
Government policies designed to reduce emissions are bad for business
(21:03):
for profit margins, especially in a country like Australia, which
has rich deposits of coal and gas deposits we depend
on for our wealth. So, uh, why are we letting
climate change, ah, reduce the, uh, trajectory of our economy?
S3 (21:23):
Well, it's a ridiculous argument. I mean, curbing asbestos was
bad for that industry also. And tobacco companies would have
a smoke more too. The reality is that the great
bulk of remaining fossil fuels need to stay where they've
set said for many millions of years just fine. Australia's
rich range of minerals, though, means that we can continue
(21:44):
to benefit from the flukes of nature. We're a diversified
economy and that diversity extends to our dirt. And if
we're smart, we can also do a better job at
refining or processing more of what we dig up than
we have in the past. So there are huge economic
opportunities to be had as the world transitions to a
cleaner economy, and there's no country on the planet better
(22:06):
placed to win that race than Australia. We've got an
abundance of natural advantages from our wind and our solar,
our renewable energy resource. We've got a huge landmass to
be able to host that infrastructure, and doing so, we
can get some of the cheapest energy anywhere in the world,
and that will underwrite a new era of prosperity for
energy intensive businesses, manufacturing industry, um, giving us a competitive advantage.
(22:30):
That means jobs, it means investment, and that means economic growth.
So to those deniers that say this is bad for business, well,
let me say, uh, what's bad for business is holding
back the tide of capital and the reality that the
world is moving on this and the markets that have
underwritten our prosperity for generations want different goods, services and
(22:52):
capital from Australia, and we're really well placed to provide it.
So let's get on the train and grow our economy
whilst protecting our planet.
S2 (23:00):
Climate change deniers cap still firmly on. We keep hearing
this term green energy superpower Australia has this this potential.
But how would that possibly play out? Because we're not
going to be exporting solar power at not at least
not in the near future. And most of our panels
are coming from China. Anyway, so how on earth do
(23:21):
we become this green superpower?
S3 (23:24):
Well, we take advantage of our rich natural resources. Our
wind and solar, and our renewable energy opportunity will give
us some of the cheapest, reliable, clean energy anywhere on
the planet that will underwrite a competitive advantage for heavy industry,
for manufacturing, for energy intensive processes. That means we'll have
(23:45):
a competitive advantage selling those goods and services into the
markets that are demanding them. Think Japan. Think Korea. Those
economies that have underwritten Australia's prosperity for generations. They're changing
the types of things that they want in their global markets.
And again, we're really well placed to provide them. And
in doing so that means jobs for Australia, that means
investment in Australia and that means economic growth for Australia.
(24:07):
It's too big an opportunity for us to pass up.
S2 (24:10):
There are still scientists still wearing my cap here. There
are still scientists out there who dismiss or downgrade the
risks of climate change, so why should we disbelieve them?
You know, there's scientists who say that the problem is
being exaggerated. Not a lot, but they're still out there.
S3 (24:28):
Well, Greg, name a science academy in the world that
hasn't joined the obvious dots. If objects stop falling towards
the earth or the laws of thermodynamics suddenly broke, we
might have reason to challenge the first principles of science.
In any case, let them explain why the world's oceans
have heated up, lifting sea levels in the process without
global warming, or explain away the imbalance between the energy
(24:51):
reaching the planet and what is radiated back to space,
thanks to the thickening greenhouse gas blanket. Then their arguments
might be worth debating. They can't say they aren't, and
we should just move on.
S2 (25:02):
No matter what Australia does with reducing our carbon emissions
on a global scale, it's unlikely, really, that we can
make any big difference because we contribute less than 2%
of global emissions.
S3 (25:15):
Well, that's like saying Australian troops would only be a
fraction of the Empire's forces in World War One, or
the Allies in World War Two. So why bother joining that?
That global effort actually taking into account our big exports
of coal and gas, we make up more like 5%
(25:35):
of global emissions, even if others burn a lot of
it on a per capita basis. One of the largest
were one of the largest polluters on the planet, pushing
above our weight in a bad way. We're also relatively
wealthy and historically have contributed an outsized share of emissions.
We also live in a beautiful nature that is at
the mercy of a volatile climate. Take rainfall, for example.
(25:57):
Before we add to the mix an energized atmosphere, it's
very much in our interest to coax other nations to
reduce emissions, and we can hardly do that by sitting
on the sidelines until others take the lead.
S2 (26:09):
We're now entering. Still with my climate change deniers hat on.
We're entering a very uncertain world now. We've really seen
that in the last couple of months. The global balance
of power is changing quickly, appears to be moving away
from the West. We could soon be facing a world
in which every country is some vying for itself. Australia
(26:31):
is particularly vulnerable because of our geography, also because of
what's been happening with America and national and and our
future national sovereignty. So why should we prioritise climate change
policy when we've got so many other damn serious issues
to deal with.
S3 (26:48):
Because it's in our national and international interest to do so?
An international arms race would be costly and not make
us safer, while diverting resources away from the race to decarbonise. Certainly,
it will be hard to avoid the vortex of violence
or the threat of it, which is why we must
do our best to ensure the current, uh, emissions dissipate
(27:09):
rather than expand. We've already locked in our current generation
and probably the next couple into dangerous climate change. Future
Australians and other nationalities will look back in anger if
we haven't done what we could, to spare them of
every fraction of a degree of warming that we could.
It's not like we have ignorance as an excuse on
this topic. We need a coalition of the willing when
(27:30):
it comes to halting climate change, and I'm certainly going
to continue to be part of that so long as
I'm around.
S2 (27:37):
Do you think that, um, attitudes towards climate change are
maturing now? I mean, it was only a few years
ago that, um, Scott Morrison famously held up that piece
of coal in Parliament saying, don't be scared, don't be afraid. Um, well,
at that time, we weren't so much scared as really
(27:58):
confused by what he was trying to say. But do
you ever, um, do you think that that since that
time and certainly, um, actually, Malcolm Turnbull, of course, preceded him,
but do you think that that the public attitude towards
climate change. The understanding of climate change has has grown.
And you think public acceptance that yes, this is happening
(28:19):
and yes, it's a serious problem has grown.
S3 (28:22):
I think absolutely. That's the case. I mean, we certainly
saw that after the 2019 bushfires, the worst bushfires that
we'd ever seen in New South Wales. We saw the
Morrison government defeated largely on the back of not having
strong enough climate policies. Again, at this election, we've just
(28:42):
seen Alfred the cyclone roll through, and there has been
an increase in concern about whether or not our major
political parties have the policies needed to address these challenges
now and into the future. So I think that the
public does understand that our warming climate is having an
effect on our lives and our livelihoods. You can't not
(29:07):
see the images of people huddling on the beach in
the middle of summer to avoid these huge blazes. You
can't not unsee people's homes being carried away by floodwaters
in the northern rivers. This is the reality that scientists
have been telling us about for decades. So the public
(29:27):
understand this, and I think you'll continue to see politicians
and political parties rewarded when they put forward policies that
take this matter seriously, but do it in a way
that is in our economic interest as well. You can
take strong action to reduce emissions while also growing our economy.
And I think we proved that as a liberal national
(29:49):
government in New South Wales, we continued our economic growth.
We continued to manage the budget responsibly, maintaining our state's
Triple-A credit rating and putting us on a path to
budget surplus whilst taking some of the most progressive climate
policies anywhere in the nation. And for those that you,
the people that say you can't do both. We proved
them wrong in New South Wales.
S2 (30:10):
Why do you think that there was this disjunct between
the New South Wales state government and your influence, perhaps
on the issue of climate change and at the federal level?
Because it seems like the New South Wales was, was
moving ahead in this, this area, but the federal government,
not so much.
S3 (30:31):
Well, I'll generously say that the New South Wales economy
is different to the national economy. So we don't have
as much mining here in New South Wales as maybe, say,
Queensland or Western Australia. So the attitudes of those communities
are are a bit different. That said, we do have
a lot of thermal coal here, but we recognise that
(30:51):
global markets are changing and we need to plan for
the future. And you can't fatten a pig on market day.
As the coal sales from New South Wales diminish to
the global marketplace, we need to be preparing for the
industries that will replace them. And the benefit is, is
for our transition that new industries are emerging, which we
(31:14):
can create here in New South Wales, indeed in Australia,
creating jobs, driving investment, growing our economy. So we manage
the risk of changing global demand by building, seizing the
opportunities that are being presented by these global megatrends. That's
good government, that's good management. Businesses that see the future,
(31:36):
manage the risks of the present are the ones that survive.
Those that don't. Well, we all saw what happened with Kodak.
S2 (31:43):
Um, many, many of us in Australia have already been
directly affected by climate change. I have family in Lismore,
in the Northern Rivers, the bushfires of January 2020 and
the recent floods and the 2022 floods in the northern rivers, um,
they've been they've had very devastating effects on people. Has
(32:03):
there been any time, Matt Keen that you've been directly
affected for argument's sake, during the the bushfires in in
2020 and early 2020 did where you were living at
the time in the northern suburbs of Sydney?
S4 (32:17):
Well, I mean, it had a.
S3 (32:20):
Huge impact on my thinking. The 2020 bushfires happened at
the time that my son Tom was born. It was
my first child, and I remember walking out of the
birthing suite and walking out of Hornsby Hospital, seeing my
whole community shrouded in smoke. Now, that wasn't my childhood experience,
(32:43):
and I didn't want it to be my son's childhood
experience or anyone else's son or daughter's childhood experience. And
as I said earlier, um, taking action on climate change
is not something we can put off to the future.
By taking action today, we can leave a better future
for my son and everyone's sons and daughters. And that's
(33:07):
something that is incumbent on all of us to do. So, uh,
climate change, those extreme weather events, they have had a
profound impact on me. And they certainly shaped my thinking
in wanting to fight for stronger action on climate change
so that we can meet our responsibilities to the next
generation and the generations that follow, and that is to
(33:29):
hand them a planet better than we found it. We
can do that whilst also growing the economy. And that's
when my North Star, since I entered politics.
S2 (33:37):
Is a part of that. You're being able to say
to your son or you've got a daughter since then, I.
S3 (33:43):
Think we're about to have a daughter. We're, we're, we're
expecting in mid-May, so.
S2 (33:48):
Oh, really? Oh, lovely.
S3 (33:49):
Yeah. So a little girl.
S2 (33:51):
Okay. So as part of this, um, you're being able
to say if things get a lot worse. Of course,
in the coming years, as they get older. I've done
my bit, I this is what I have done for
your generation. Whether it's worked or not is for you
to decide.
S3 (34:09):
Well, I, I didn't want to be sitting in a
nursing home with regrets about wasting the moment that I
had to make our planet better, our community better, and
our economy stronger. And, uh, you know, I, I when
I was putting in policies to do those things, I
was thinking about my son and everyone else's children and
(34:31):
the generations that will come after them. And I hope
that when I leave the stage, um, people will say,
New South Wales, our country is better because he had
a crack. Um, now there are lots of people doing
lots of good things, but I hope that I've helped
make a difference in this space, and I'll continue to
try and make a difference in this space.
S2 (34:52):
So what's ahead of Matt Kean, given we've got federal
elections coming up pretty quickly? Um, your chair of the
Climate Change Authority. You're again, um, taking taking this very
important issue into the public space. What's what's the future
for Matt Kean?
S3 (35:11):
Well, who knows what the future holds. But what I
will say is that I'll continue to be an advocate
for strong climate action in a way that helps grow
our economy and our nation's prosperity. So whether that's as chair,
as the climate authority, or whether that's as just a
citizen of our country, this is something that I believe in.
(35:32):
I think it's a huge opportunity for our nation, and
that I want to make sure that we can grab
with both hands. So I'll continue to be a champion
for that effort in whatever capacity I find myself in.
But again, who knows what the future holds. But I'll
keep continuing to do my best to stand up for facts,
to stand up for evidence, and to fight for a
(35:54):
better future for our country.
S2 (35:56):
Matt Kean, thank you very much.
S3 (35:57):
Thanks, Greg.
S1 (36:00):
That was Matt Keen talking with the acting editor of
Good Weekend, Greg Callahan on the latest Good Weekend talks.
Coming soon. We chat with Andrew Abdo, the CEO of
the resurgent National Rugby League, hot off their season opening
foray into Sin City. If you enjoyed this episode, please
remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your
(36:20):
podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations. Good
Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning
Herald and The Age proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to
support independent journalism. Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?
This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad
Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from
(36:43):
Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick
is head of audio and Greg Callahan is the acting
editor of Good Weekend.
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