In this week's episode we speak with the author of a new book, Processed, about the downside of sandwich ham and salami, fried bacon, hot dogs, pepperoni pizzas and the like. Speaking with GW deputy editor Greg Callaghan, Morris-Marr explains how a raft of scientific papers link the nitrites used in many processed meats to improve flavour and eliminate bacteria, with cancer. She explores, too, why so many of us ignore such warnings.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks,
a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating
people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.
Every week, you can download new episodes in which top
journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about
(00:26):
the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we
speak with Lucy Morris Meagher after a shock diagnosis of
stage four bowel cancer. The veteran journalist was driven to
investigate the health risks of processed meats. In the course
of that research, she uncovered a raft of scientific papers
linking the nitrates used in many of these meats to
(00:48):
improve flavour and eliminate bacteria with cancer. She's written a
new book on the topic, processed about the hidden downside
of sandwich ham and salami, fried bacon, hot dogs and
pepperoni pizzas, and hosting this conversation about everything from how
these meats are baked into our culinary culture, to why
(01:09):
we ignore the sky high rates of cancer with which
they're linked. Is good weekend deputy editor Greg Callahan.
S2 (01:18):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Lucy.
S3 (01:21):
Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.
S2 (01:24):
Now, you've written a book, processed how the processed meat
industry is killing us with the food we love. And
it contains some amazing research, medical research about the dangers
of processed meat just by definition. Lucy, what is processed meat?
S3 (01:45):
The processed meat I've focused on is the one that
there's the most concerns over. You could call processed meat,
burgers and all sorts of different things, but the one
that they're really worried about is cured meats. These are
the hot dogs, the bacons, the salamis, the ones everyone loves.
They're all delicious. The salty ones. The ones in the picnics.
The ones in the lunch boxes. All the cured ones.
S2 (02:08):
And we've heard for you know what seems like generations
about the dangers of eating saturated fat and eating too
much red meat. But we haven't heard so much about
the processed meat industry, have we?
S3 (02:21):
No, and that's what's worrying, because there have been so
many studies. In fact, in 2015, the World Health Organization
declared them a class one carcinogen alongside asbestos and tobacco.
Of course, they're not as dangerous as some of those things,
but they were classed in that group, and it did
make a world of media headlines at the time.
S4 (02:44):
It was a sobering day for meat lovers, especially in
a country that ranked second in the world for eating
the most.
S5 (02:50):
Meat organization found that often beloved meats like sausage, bacon, ham.
S6 (02:54):
Things like bacon, sausage, hot dogs and sliced meat can
cause colon cancer.
S7 (02:59):
Coming warning from the World Health Organization's cancer research arm
that goes like this. Processed meats cause cancer, and red
meat probably does, too.
S3 (03:08):
And so the food scare happened then. This is nearly
ten years ago, but nothing changed. And I don't think
it's sunk into a general public awareness enough. There's never
been like a book or a major documentary on this angle.
And that's where I stepped in and thought it's time
there was.
S2 (03:24):
I found the book quite a revelation from that, because yes,
I'd read news stories about the dangers of eating too
much processed ham and so forth, and but it hadn't
really seeped into the public consciousness until I read your
book and you had brought together all this information, basically
sort of galvanized the argument against these, um, processed meats
(03:50):
based on, on, on the evidence. So why hasn't the
the public health message got through?
S3 (03:57):
Well, um, the industry in Australia is worth over $4
billion and employs 10,000 people. There's a lot at stake
for the industry to keep this under wraps. There's a
lot of smoke and mirrors with these products. A lot
of them say you go into the supermarket and they'll
say no additives or beautifully raised Australian meat. And and
(04:17):
they don't mention that on the back. You know, one
of the ingredients I really focus on in the book,
during my investigation that came up again and again was
preservative 250, which is sodium nitrate. And that really is
a bad boy in the mix of this, if any
listeners right now paused and went to their fridge, if
they've got any bacon in the fridge, if you've got
any pepperoni or salami, just turn over and look at
(04:39):
the label and there will be more than likely, unless
you've got it from an organic farm somewhere, preservative 250
or sodium nitrate. And that is what people and researchers
all over the world are starting to get very worried about.
And it's the really the Achilles heel for the industry
because that particular ingredient, it helps stop botulism. It Botulism.
It makes your bacon nice and pink. It gives it
(05:03):
shelf stability and longevity in shops and in transport and
in your fridge. But more and more evidence is showing
that those nitrates, in particular in processed meats, are what
can cause cancer and not just bowel cancer. As I
explored in the book, I've read hundreds of clinical studies
during the last four years, and they're actually related to
about ten different serious illnesses.
S2 (05:25):
So tell us, how do how do the nitrates actually
get installed into the meat, if you like? I'm thinking
we all know that basically most of these meats come
from pigs, but at what stage are all these other
chemical nasties added to the meat?
S3 (05:43):
This is when the meat is cured. And essentially, sodium
nitrate is a mix of salt and nitrate. These chemical
nitrates and often they're put in a brine or a powder.
Different forms in the factory process. But where the harm
can happen is the Is the interaction between nitro preservatives
and the meat itself. This does put simply, and they
(06:04):
can cause something called nitrosamines, which can go on to
cause cancer. And it can in the case of bowel cancer,
it can affect the lining of the bowel and, you know,
and cause polyps and that sort of thing that they
grow and they become cancerous. If they grow too big,
they can spread, which is what happened in my case.
I'll never know if you know. Processed meats definitely cause
(06:25):
my bowel cancer, but they're in the frame. They're definitely
in the frame. And, you know, there can be other causes.
And I'm not claiming that's the only cause, but there's
enough research now that shows that in particular, there's a
UK piece of research that showed that they found that 13%
of all UK bowel cancer cases were down to processed meats.
(06:47):
And in 2013, another study, a global study, said that
34,000 people around the world had died of bowel cancer
because of processed meats. So they're able to able to
narrow down and more and more studies are actually coming out,
even since this book went to press. So it really
is a troubling thing that I'm not the person to
(07:08):
reveal this food scare. I'm amplifying it. And that that's
been a privilege as a journalist to to have this mission,
so to speak, since I was diagnosed.
S2 (07:17):
Yes. You're certainly amplifying it from a very personal and
powerful perspective here. Um, look, some people, when they think
of their hot dogs and they think of their ham
sandwiches and so forth, they think, why all this war on? Delicious.
You know, these these foods are delicious. Um, we've got
(07:38):
to eat something. Um, there's a study coming out every
second or third week pointing to this food or this, uh,
environmental factor causing cancer. Why, in your mind, apart from
your very powerful story here, of course. But more broadly,
why do you think that, um, processed meats are so dangerous.
S3 (08:01):
Oh. Just because. Look, you mentioned the personal experience. I
know what bowel cancer is like. I'm lucky to be here.
Speaking today, I had I was diagnosed with stage four
bowel cancer in 2019, but 15,000 Australians are getting diagnosed
with bowel cancer every year. That's just in this country.
And you know, if we apply those UK statistics that
(08:24):
they came up with, that's 13% that comes around five
Australians a day potentially could be being diagnosed because of
eating processed meats. So it's very real. And when you've
had it yourself and I've lost friends from this, it's
been such a long journey. I made great friends in
the bowel cancer community and then sadly, I've slowly lost
many of them. It's been a terrible, terrible thing to witness.
(08:45):
I've also made friends with people who've had it in
the early stages, and they've quickly been cured with a
minor surgery, maybe some chemotherapy. So I've seen it all ends.
But yes. Okay, you could easily say, and people do
say that to me when I mention I said, oh,
don't have your bacon like friends. I say, have some
halloumi for brunch. And I was like, oh, everything causes cancer.
But I think when it's touched you so personally in
(09:07):
so many ways, I just don't want anyone to suffer
this because it's horrendous for you and your family and everything.
And so yeah, that's my personal motivation there. I just
don't want anyone to suffer. And it's something. Processed meats
is something in a way, like a side, you know,
a side dish. You don't have to have it. You
could have mushrooms, you can have halloumi. There's so many
(09:28):
different things, falafels that you know, with a meal that
you know, could easily replace it. And yeah, or sometimes
just have it as a treat. But what I'm seeing
in Australia is it's so embedded in our cultural diet,
increasingly so the sausage sizzles, we make a hero of it.
The Bunnings one, the democracy sausage which is becoming and
children are witnessing that we're giving them sausage sizzles after
(09:51):
every sports game. And they're going to associate that with fun.
And that's going to be passed on into their future
adulthood and also then their children. So it's quite serious
when there's something that's not good for them in quite
a serious way that's getting so embedded in society. I
just thought, I'm going to speak up for it, because
it's really it's really something people are aware of. And
(10:11):
if they're aware of it and they still choose to
eat it, I don't mind your body, your rules. I
don't want to be telling people what to eat. I, just,
as a journalist, want people to be informed.
S2 (10:21):
Yes. Your book begins very powerfully with with your waking
up in ICU and seeing a ham sandwich on a
table adjoining your bed. Tell us a little about why
you were so upset by the sight of that ham sandwich.
S3 (10:42):
Yeah. So this was an operation I had in 2022
as a multiple multiple liver resection. It sounds as bad
as it is. Um, it was my second attempt to
remove new tumors from my liver with an amazing surgeon. Um, and, uh,
I was in intensive care. Woke up by that stage,
I'd already done a lot of research. In fact, I
(11:02):
had a book deal already. I got that in 2021.
It just had to keep getting delayed. The submission of
my manuscript because I was also fighting cancer. Um, but yes.
So I was already writing the book and researching it.
And then I woke up and I wasn't really supposed
to eat at that point, of course. So that was
a bit strange, but there was this ham sandwich and
a drink, like a juice next to me. As soon
(11:23):
as I woke up and I just my heart sank.
And I just thought, even in hospitals, they give. I've
just woken up from an operation which is because of
metastatic bowel cancer, and there's a ham sandwich next to
my bed. And I was I was just incensed. And
even though I wasn't feeling well and I can't remember
doing it, apparently I asked for the catering manager to
(11:43):
come over and the nurses looked very confused and thought,
what the hell? And a few days later he did
appear and he said, I'm here about the ham sandwich.
And I couldn't remember. And I said, oh yes, okay,
let's have a chat about the ham Sandwich, and he
didn't seem to know about the links with bowel cancer.
And I said, that's why I'm here. And across the board. Actually,
(12:05):
I'm from mums that I know from my kids school,
and I've talked to all sorts of people in industry.
I've even spoken once to a minor royal about this
who happened to be at an event. And I don't know,
we just got chatting about what I was writing and
she didn't know much about it either, and she looked
quite upset about the salami she liked having. So I've
talked to people from all walks of life, and they
(12:27):
just seem to be a gap of awareness, um, about
the link to bowel cancer and other other conditions. And,
and it actually motivated me more. I thought, they're giving
this hospital patients because in my research, I also came
across some study that said that by having more nitrates,
if you've already got cancer, if you have more nitrate
(12:48):
coming in, that can make it worse. So yeah, and
in some countries, even in America, there is a call
among a group that was asking for hospitals to ban
processed meats. And this is happening in other countries as well.
It's infuriating. In my hospital admissions, I would often just test,
and when they give you the little menus, I would
circle anything that was processed meats just out of interest.
(13:11):
And some hospitals are better than others, but it's really
bad that the dietitians are giving that out. Each hospital
has dietitians. I know it's really difficult. They have to
cater for so many different diets, people with diabetes, people
who need extra calcium, etc. it's really hard. Hospital food catering.
But I think hospitals can do better and they really
(13:32):
need to definitely take out processed meats as number one priority.
S2 (13:37):
Now, as I'm speaking to you today, I'm looking at
a young woman you were diagnosed at. How old were
you when you were diagnosed?
S3 (13:45):
I was 44 and my children were just nine and 11.
S2 (13:49):
That must have come as such a terrible shock.
S3 (13:52):
Oh, it was absolutely horrendous. And I'm anyone who's had
a cancer diagnosis. Would appreciate that. It sort of it
started off bad and got worse as the day one
particular week went on because you have scans and then
by the end of the week, I was told I
had stage four cancer with a major big tumor, probably
a lime sized tumor in my sigmoid colon, and I
(14:12):
had at least 5 or 6 tumors in my liver.
And I just thought it was November and I thought,
this is my last Christmas. I didn't know enough about
about the treatment. I didn't know anything at that point.
But at that moment I was told I thought that
was it. And that was really, really difficult. My children
were so young. I was flying high. I just had
(14:33):
my first book published, which later won me a Walkley
on the George Pell matter and literally just had this
wonderful book launch. I was invited to lots of festivals
and to do speeches and everything came to a halt.
Everything stopped, everything was cancelled, and that was very, very difficult.
Obviously I soon got a great team and a And
(14:55):
a plan was made. I researched the hell out of it,
being a journalist, of course, and I thought, nah, I'm
going to get through this. I'm there is no way
this is killing me. I just got it in my
head and I just focused on the goal. That goal. Um.
And I was stubborn as anything. Um, look, a lot
of people are. I was also lucky the cancer I
had didn't spread to bones or lungs or brain, which,
(15:18):
unfortunately does happen with bowel cancer. As I said, I've
lost friends. That's happened to. So there was some luck
involved that we were able to control it. So it
didn't do that. But, um, I just, I just I
never forgot this phrase from Tony Robbins, um, the life coach,
and he just said, um, he said to this group,
why did you fail? Um, and they put lots of
(15:38):
reasons up. And he said, no, you failed because you
didn't use every single resource available to you. And I
never forgot that. So I've had four oncologists. I've had
to fire three, and only because I wanted to seek
new ideas, nothing personal against them. I'd probably been in
every hospital in Melbourne. I've contacted the top bowel surgeons
(15:58):
in the world and had consultations with them or, you know,
just found them on Facebook and sent them messages. I
just was absolutely determined. I thought, no, I need my
kids need me. I love my life. I love being
a journalist. I've got to live. And I just was
I was just on a mission. So far, so good.
But it's been hard. I've been chopped to pieces. I've
(16:20):
lost quite a lot of internal organs. I got the
main ones, the ones I need, which is good.
S2 (16:40):
So, Lucy, prior to this crashing diagnosis, had you had
any intimation that something was wrong, did you have any
idea that you might be potentially quite unwell?
S3 (16:51):
Well, interestingly, this is a whole nother area of patient
advocacy that I'm hoping to help with. I did go
to a GP a year before. In fact, I presented
at an emergency department a year before with abdominal pains.
But as a woman, you know, you can get dismissed
as all sorts of things. And this is an issue.
And also, you know, they can say, oh, was it
food poisoning in your own mind? You're like, well, I
(17:11):
did have sushi yesterday. And then the pains went and
then I went back. And then a doctor said it
was diverticulitis, which was a bad guess, unfortunately. And she
gave me antibiotics and they worked in quotes. And so
her foot went off the pedal and so did mine.
And then I was promoting my book and everything. And
then the pains came back. And eventually I had a
(17:33):
colonoscopy nearly a year after my first pains. And I'd
gone to the doctors. I'd gone to the hospital. Um,
this happens a lot, especially among GP's with young onset
cancer situations where they think you're too young. Um, and
there's a big campaign with Bowel Cancer Australia that's run
for a long time called Never Too Young. Um, and
I really support that because it's not just an old
(17:56):
person's disease. There's more and more young people. In fact, 11%
of all those 15,000 Australians who are being diagnosed with
bowel cancer each year are under 50. So I was
one of those. But yeah, by the time I was diagnosed,
I had my colonoscopy and I woke up and I
was taken into a side room and she said the
(18:16):
tumour was so big the camera couldn't get past it.
That was the start of that bad week whereby the
end of the week, they found it was in my liver.
And it was such a shame because a year before,
if I'd been diagnosed properly and had the scans, perhaps
it hadn't spread to my liver at that point. And
that's quite an easy fix. Generally stage 1 or 2
bowel cancer. Look, it's a it's a bowel resection quite
(18:37):
often maybe some chemotherapy. But you can be completely cured
for life. But I'd come past that. And that's why
it was such a shock. It was terrible.
S2 (18:46):
It's quite alarming that bowel cancer is increasing among young people.
Why do you think that's the case?
S3 (18:55):
Oh, look, there's there's lots of new studies and they're
desperately researching it. There needs to be more research. Um,
they're looking at low calcium, low activity. Other risky lifestyle
factors like smoking ultra processed foods is a massive one.
They're looking at, you know, there's consuming sugary drinks and
fast food, um, not doing homemade foods so much anymore. Um,
(19:16):
but the gut biome is a mysterious thing. There's a
lot more research that needs to be done into bowel cancer. Um,
there's all sorts of things that can be linked as well.
Like the use of antibiotics, tooth decay. Um, there is more.
So I'm not saying processed meats is is is the
only thing, but it's something that I thought was so
embedded in our society and is becoming more so. And
(19:37):
it just felt like a really good thing to, for
me to really focus on, um, because it has such
established risks. But no one's listening. And the government and
I think there needs to be clear labelling on meats,
on some meats like sausages, because they can, for example,
they contain sulfates quite often, and people can be allergic.
There's a warning sign. I would like warning signs on
(19:58):
here on on all processed meats that there's a bowel
cancer risk that they contain nitrates. But that's not happening.
S2 (20:04):
Yeah, it's certainly not happening. And it's alarming to for
young people because, um, the reality is with the cost
of living, we are buying more processed foods because they're cheaper.
S3 (20:16):
Absolutely.
S2 (20:17):
Food and vegetables cost a lot more. Yeah. And also
with the pace of living now, there isn't, as you say,
you said a moment ago, there isn't a lot of
time devoted to home cooking, restaurant meals, takeaway. All of
those avenues for buying food are potentially unhealthy because they
contain large amounts of sodium, large amounts of fat in
(20:41):
sauces and creams. It's a problem, isn't it?
S3 (20:44):
It is. And when you also. And I. By the way,
I have no judgement on a family or a mum
or dad who, because of budget restraints, are buying processed meats. Um,
growing up, I mentioned I was with a single mom
in in Hampshire, in England, and she bought a Fray
Bentos pie quite often. Um, or she would buy she
didn't have a car sometimes. And she cycled to the shop,
(21:06):
the corner shop where there was bacon that would last
a while in our fridge and would be tasty, though
of course there wasn't the warnings. Um, there are now.
There was really not the research either. Um, but look,
that's just economically and that's often there's food insecurity that
in this country at the moment. And so, you know,
at Costco, um, you see people queuing up for the
(21:28):
199 hot dog, which is probably one of the cheapest
ways of eating in this country in terms of takeaway,
because it includes a drink that you can refill and refill,
and they've got the whole family. And I don't judge that.
That's what they need to do to feed their family.
If you want to, you can buy a, you know,
a 12 sausages in Aldi. Um, you know, for less
than $10. And again, that feeds those children. And so
(21:50):
it's a shame that they're turning to processed meats, but
sometimes you have to. So I'm coming this with no
judgment whatsoever in terms of what people are choosing, but
it certainly paints a picture of the worrisome ways these
the chemicals in them, the way they're being produced and
people are eating them because they are cheap and there
is this economic pressure as well. So that's another thing
(22:11):
in the mix that's worrying.
S2 (22:13):
In a way, the link between processed foods and and
bowel cancer has been around for generations. I had a
discussion with my own gastroenterologist about this only a year
or two ago, and he was saying that in Japan,
bowel cancer was absolutely so rare that they hardly had
(22:34):
in the entire country of Japan, any bowel cancer specialists
in the 1970s right through until the late 1980s. But
after Japan switched to Western eating, the levels of bowel
cancer soared. so there is the evidence, although it be
(22:55):
an historical one, that there is a definite link, isn't there?
We just have to look outside of our own country
and our own experience to see that there is a
direct link with bowel cancer and processed, highly processed foods.
S3 (23:10):
Absolutely. I do focus on the number one country with
the most bowel cancer deaths is Slovakia, and they're also
the number one consumers of processed meats. I found out
when I compared those two charts. Look again there can
be variables when with bowel cancer statistics because of healthcare,
of monitoring, testing, etc. plus, you know, there's other lifestyle
(23:33):
factors such as smoking and obesity. But look, I thought
it was an interesting thing to find out considering they
are the number one consumers of processed meats. But yes,
as you say, there's countries in the world who, you know,
in Mozambique, for example, might be more rice and beans
on the diet than not so much sausages and ham
and pepperoni and their bowel cancer rates are much lower. Um, but,
(23:55):
you know, these things are being introduced to countries which
previously didn't eat them, like you say, in Japan. And
that just shows the impact it can have on bowel
cancer rates.
S2 (24:04):
Now, Lucy, you're the third person. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In in Australia with stage four bowel cancer to have
a liver transplant. Is that right?
S3 (24:15):
Yes. That's right. It's been a very interesting journey in
the last year. I feel incredibly, incredibly lucky during this
five year journey of mine. The idea of a liver
transplant was never on the table. I used to sometimes
ask several times and they said no, because it's you've
got static cancer, and if it's somewhere else, it would
just take off because of the immune suppressants you'd have
(24:36):
to take. And then suddenly, um, a friend in the
bowel cancer community, I asked him how he was one day. Luckily,
I asked him and he said, I'm great. I've just
become the first person in Australia to have a liver
transplant with bowel cancer, and I nearly just dropped my
phone and fell over. And I just said, please tell
me the name of your surgeon who happened to be
(24:58):
in Sydney, sort of doing a clinical trial effectively. Um, and,
and then I contacted him, um, in the time that
I was contacting him, he did a second, um, transplant,
which was basically the next door neighbor of my friend
in Gippsland who was a young mum with four kids. And,
and she just happened to hear about it through him.
(25:18):
And she had a successful, um, liver transplant. And then, um,
I did get offered to go to Sydney, but thankfully
I just started with a new oncologist, Doctor Niall Tebbutt,
who's wonderful. And, um, he had just come under his
care and he said, let me speak to the team here.
I don't know if they're ready to change protocol. I
know they've talked about it. And then by the end
(25:39):
of the day, I got a call saying, you can
have it here in Melbourne at the Austin. And that
was just that was over just about a year ago.
And that was an amazing turn of events. And I
was thrilled for about one minute. And then I was
terrified and I thought, oh my gosh, You don't grow
up in your life thinking you're going to have a
liver transplant. Um, but I waited, um, about. I can't
be precise. Um, unfortunately, on when I had it, just
(26:01):
because of the protocol of not being linked to the
family of the donor. But I did have it in
the second part of last year. Um, and it was
brutal and difficult. And I've had complications, which are very common. Um,
but I've had it and I've now been cured of
stage four bowel cancer, which not many people can say.
And I feel so lucky. And I've lost, as I said,
(26:24):
very close friends who didn't get this chance. So I
feel so grateful. I'm so grateful to the donor and
their family. Um, I haven't really had time to process
it all. Um, but I'm absolutely thrilled with those medical
decisions and advances. Um, Australia is one of only few
countries to do this. Um, and it's because of amazing
(26:44):
research and, um, forward thinking from people in a particular
surgeon in France who did a did a big trial
of this. And he realized that if rectal cancer patients
could have liver transplants or the ones he gave liver
transplants to, they were still 75% were still alive after
five years. So that was that gave everyone all around
(27:07):
the world a boost. New Zealand hasn't done them yet,
but England has just done their first, so there's not
many of us. So I just feel so lucky, um,
and grateful and relieved.
S2 (27:20):
It's wonderful news for you, Lucy. It's for somebody who's
read the book and felt, I mean, at some distance,
I might say, but. But still felt, you know, your
journey quite closely. It's it's very gratifying news. So tell us,
how are you travelling now?
S3 (27:36):
Um. I'm good today. Look, it's only it's only been
a few months. Um, unfortunately, a quarter of all transplant
patients have the risk of bile duct, um, complications, and
I do have that. Um, but my team are team
are amazing. We're dealing with that. I've had a couple
of procedures in the last couple of weeks to help
deal with that, and it's a day by day thing. Um,
(27:58):
hopefully that will be resolved. Um, they're very clever at
the Austin and world class people. Absolutely. World class care. Um,
so I'm just moving through that at the moment, but
I'm very hopeful that can be resolved. Um, and I
just keep moving. As I said, I'll never give up.
Whatever happens, I'll never quit. And that's just how I
have it in my mind, I have to. My children
are 14 and 16. I want to see them get married.
(28:22):
I want to be there for everything. And, um. Yeah,
as you can tell, I'm pretty stubborn. Um, and it's
taken four open operations, a liver transplant, and I'm not.
Many of us live beyond five years, and I've lived
five years, two months. And I just again, very, very grateful. Um,
one of my best friends I made, I dedicate the
(28:42):
book to him, Kieran Gall. He is a snow entrepreneur who, um,
from Pambula, New South Wales. He became one of my
best friends, along with his wife. Life, and he lost
his fight in November 2023. And he knew I was
writing this book and he was so proud I was
doing it. And I quote him in the book a
couple of times, and I just think of people like that,
and that motivates me to keep moving forward, to take
(29:04):
risks with the book and to keep trying to get cured.
I mean, I have been cured of stage four bowel cancer,
but a liver transplant, you know, brings new issues, but
the cancer is not at risk of spreading around my body.
So as far as I'm concerned, I'm still extremely lucky,
even though I do have some complications.
S2 (29:23):
And we're very lucky that you've written this book, because
I think, to my knowledge, it's probably the very first
really comprehensive analysis of the medical research and other evidence
against eating processed meats. So thank you, Lucy. Thank you
for joining us today.
S3 (29:42):
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
S1 (30:00):
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate
and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning
in for more compelling conversations coming soon. We chat with
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(30:22):
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Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
Weekend Talks is produced by Chee Wong. Technical assistance from
Cormac Lally. Editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head
of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks,
a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating
people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.
Every week, you can download new episodes in which top
journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about
(00:26):
the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we
speak with Lucy Morris Meagher after a shock diagnosis of
stage four bowel cancer. The veteran journalist was driven to
investigate the health risks of processed meats. In the course
of that research, she uncovered a raft of scientific papers
linking the nitrates used in many of these meats to
(00:48):
improve flavour and eliminate bacteria with cancer. She's written a
new book on the topic, processed about the hidden downside
of sandwich ham and salami, fried bacon, hot dogs and
pepperoni pizzas, and hosting this conversation about everything from how
these meats are baked into our culinary culture, to why
(01:09):
we ignore the sky high rates of cancer with which
they're linked. Is good weekend deputy editor Greg Callahan.
S2 (01:18):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Lucy.
S3 (01:21):
Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.
S2 (01:24):
Now, you've written a book, processed how the processed meat
industry is killing us with the food we love. And
it contains some amazing research, medical research about the dangers
of processed meat just by definition. Lucy, what is processed meat?
S3 (01:45):
The processed meat I've focused on is the one that
there's the most concerns over. You could call processed meat,
burgers and all sorts of different things, but the one
that they're really worried about is cured meats. These are
the hot dogs, the bacons, the salamis, the ones everyone loves.
They're all delicious. The salty ones. The ones in the picnics.
The ones in the lunch boxes. All the cured ones.
S2 (02:08):
And we've heard for you know what seems like generations
about the dangers of eating saturated fat and eating too
much red meat. But we haven't heard so much about
the processed meat industry, have we?
S3 (02:21):
No, and that's what's worrying, because there have been so
many studies. In fact, in 2015, the World Health Organization
declared them a class one carcinogen alongside asbestos and tobacco.
Of course, they're not as dangerous as some of those things,
but they were classed in that group, and it did
make a world of media headlines at the time.
S4 (02:44):
It was a sobering day for meat lovers, especially in
a country that ranked second in the world for eating
the most.
S5 (02:50):
Meat organization found that often beloved meats like sausage, bacon, ham.
S6 (02:54):
Things like bacon, sausage, hot dogs and sliced meat can
cause colon cancer.
S7 (02:59):
Coming warning from the World Health Organization's cancer research arm
that goes like this. Processed meats cause cancer, and red
meat probably does, too.
S3 (03:08):
And so the food scare happened then. This is nearly
ten years ago, but nothing changed. And I don't think
it's sunk into a general public awareness enough. There's never
been like a book or a major documentary on this angle.
And that's where I stepped in and thought it's time
there was.
S2 (03:24):
I found the book quite a revelation from that, because yes,
I'd read news stories about the dangers of eating too
much processed ham and so forth, and but it hadn't
really seeped into the public consciousness until I read your
book and you had brought together all this information, basically
sort of galvanized the argument against these, um, processed meats
(03:50):
based on, on, on the evidence. So why hasn't the
the public health message got through?
S3 (03:57):
Well, um, the industry in Australia is worth over $4
billion and employs 10,000 people. There's a lot at stake
for the industry to keep this under wraps. There's a
lot of smoke and mirrors with these products. A lot
of them say you go into the supermarket and they'll
say no additives or beautifully raised Australian meat. And and
(04:17):
they don't mention that on the back. You know, one
of the ingredients I really focus on in the book,
during my investigation that came up again and again was
preservative 250, which is sodium nitrate. And that really is
a bad boy in the mix of this, if any
listeners right now paused and went to their fridge, if
they've got any bacon in the fridge, if you've got
any pepperoni or salami, just turn over and look at
(04:39):
the label and there will be more than likely, unless
you've got it from an organic farm somewhere, preservative 250
or sodium nitrate. And that is what people and researchers
all over the world are starting to get very worried about.
And it's the really the Achilles heel for the industry
because that particular ingredient, it helps stop botulism. It Botulism.
It makes your bacon nice and pink. It gives it
(05:03):
shelf stability and longevity in shops and in transport and
in your fridge. But more and more evidence is showing
that those nitrates, in particular in processed meats, are what
can cause cancer and not just bowel cancer. As I
explored in the book, I've read hundreds of clinical studies
during the last four years, and they're actually related to
about ten different serious illnesses.
S2 (05:25):
So tell us, how do how do the nitrates actually
get installed into the meat, if you like? I'm thinking
we all know that basically most of these meats come
from pigs, but at what stage are all these other
chemical nasties added to the meat?
S3 (05:43):
This is when the meat is cured. And essentially, sodium
nitrate is a mix of salt and nitrate. These chemical
nitrates and often they're put in a brine or a powder.
Different forms in the factory process. But where the harm
can happen is the Is the interaction between nitro preservatives
and the meat itself. This does put simply, and they
(06:04):
can cause something called nitrosamines, which can go on to
cause cancer. And it can in the case of bowel cancer,
it can affect the lining of the bowel and, you know,
and cause polyps and that sort of thing that they
grow and they become cancerous. If they grow too big,
they can spread, which is what happened in my case.
I'll never know if you know. Processed meats definitely cause
(06:25):
my bowel cancer, but they're in the frame. They're definitely
in the frame. And, you know, there can be other causes.
And I'm not claiming that's the only cause, but there's
enough research now that shows that in particular, there's a
UK piece of research that showed that they found that 13%
of all UK bowel cancer cases were down to processed meats.
(06:47):
And in 2013, another study, a global study, said that
34,000 people around the world had died of bowel cancer
because of processed meats. So they're able to able to
narrow down and more and more studies are actually coming out,
even since this book went to press. So it really
is a troubling thing that I'm not the person to
(07:08):
reveal this food scare. I'm amplifying it. And that that's
been a privilege as a journalist to to have this mission,
so to speak, since I was diagnosed.
S2 (07:17):
Yes. You're certainly amplifying it from a very personal and
powerful perspective here. Um, look, some people, when they think
of their hot dogs and they think of their ham
sandwiches and so forth, they think, why all this war on? Delicious.
You know, these these foods are delicious. Um, we've got
(07:38):
to eat something. Um, there's a study coming out every
second or third week pointing to this food or this, uh,
environmental factor causing cancer. Why, in your mind, apart from
your very powerful story here, of course. But more broadly,
why do you think that, um, processed meats are so dangerous.
S3 (08:01):
Oh. Just because. Look, you mentioned the personal experience. I
know what bowel cancer is like. I'm lucky to be here.
Speaking today, I had I was diagnosed with stage four
bowel cancer in 2019, but 15,000 Australians are getting diagnosed
with bowel cancer every year. That's just in this country.
And you know, if we apply those UK statistics that
(08:24):
they came up with, that's 13% that comes around five
Australians a day potentially could be being diagnosed because of
eating processed meats. So it's very real. And when you've
had it yourself and I've lost friends from this, it's
been such a long journey. I made great friends in
the bowel cancer community and then sadly, I've slowly lost
many of them. It's been a terrible, terrible thing to witness.
(08:45):
I've also made friends with people who've had it in
the early stages, and they've quickly been cured with a
minor surgery, maybe some chemotherapy. So I've seen it all ends.
But yes. Okay, you could easily say, and people do
say that to me when I mention I said, oh,
don't have your bacon like friends. I say, have some
halloumi for brunch. And I was like, oh, everything causes cancer.
But I think when it's touched you so personally in
(09:07):
so many ways, I just don't want anyone to suffer
this because it's horrendous for you and your family and everything.
And so yeah, that's my personal motivation there. I just
don't want anyone to suffer. And it's something. Processed meats
is something in a way, like a side, you know,
a side dish. You don't have to have it. You
could have mushrooms, you can have halloumi. There's so many
(09:28):
different things, falafels that you know, with a meal that
you know, could easily replace it. And yeah, or sometimes
just have it as a treat. But what I'm seeing
in Australia is it's so embedded in our cultural diet,
increasingly so the sausage sizzles, we make a hero of it.
The Bunnings one, the democracy sausage which is becoming and
children are witnessing that we're giving them sausage sizzles after
(09:51):
every sports game. And they're going to associate that with fun.
And that's going to be passed on into their future
adulthood and also then their children. So it's quite serious
when there's something that's not good for them in quite
a serious way that's getting so embedded in society. I
just thought, I'm going to speak up for it, because
it's really it's really something people are aware of. And
(10:11):
if they're aware of it and they still choose to
eat it, I don't mind your body, your rules. I
don't want to be telling people what to eat. I, just,
as a journalist, want people to be informed.
S2 (10:21):
Yes. Your book begins very powerfully with with your waking
up in ICU and seeing a ham sandwich on a
table adjoining your bed. Tell us a little about why
you were so upset by the sight of that ham sandwich.
S3 (10:42):
Yeah. So this was an operation I had in 2022
as a multiple multiple liver resection. It sounds as bad
as it is. Um, it was my second attempt to
remove new tumors from my liver with an amazing surgeon. Um, and, uh,
I was in intensive care. Woke up by that stage,
I'd already done a lot of research. In fact, I
(11:02):
had a book deal already. I got that in 2021.
It just had to keep getting delayed. The submission of
my manuscript because I was also fighting cancer. Um, but yes.
So I was already writing the book and researching it.
And then I woke up and I wasn't really supposed
to eat at that point, of course. So that was
a bit strange, but there was this ham sandwich and
a drink, like a juice next to me. As soon
(11:23):
as I woke up and I just my heart sank.
And I just thought, even in hospitals, they give. I've
just woken up from an operation which is because of
metastatic bowel cancer, and there's a ham sandwich next to
my bed. And I was I was just incensed. And
even though I wasn't feeling well and I can't remember
doing it, apparently I asked for the catering manager to
(11:43):
come over and the nurses looked very confused and thought,
what the hell? And a few days later he did
appear and he said, I'm here about the ham sandwich.
And I couldn't remember. And I said, oh yes, okay,
let's have a chat about the ham Sandwich, and he
didn't seem to know about the links with bowel cancer.
And I said, that's why I'm here. And across the board. Actually,
(12:05):
I'm from mums that I know from my kids school,
and I've talked to all sorts of people in industry.
I've even spoken once to a minor royal about this
who happened to be at an event. And I don't know,
we just got chatting about what I was writing and
she didn't know much about it either, and she looked
quite upset about the salami she liked having. So I've
talked to people from all walks of life, and they
(12:27):
just seem to be a gap of awareness, um, about
the link to bowel cancer and other other conditions. And,
and it actually motivated me more. I thought, they're giving
this hospital patients because in my research, I also came
across some study that said that by having more nitrates,
if you've already got cancer, if you have more nitrate
(12:48):
coming in, that can make it worse. So yeah, and
in some countries, even in America, there is a call
among a group that was asking for hospitals to ban
processed meats. And this is happening in other countries as well.
It's infuriating. In my hospital admissions, I would often just test,
and when they give you the little menus, I would
circle anything that was processed meats just out of interest.
(13:11):
And some hospitals are better than others, but it's really
bad that the dietitians are giving that out. Each hospital
has dietitians. I know it's really difficult. They have to
cater for so many different diets, people with diabetes, people
who need extra calcium, etc. it's really hard. Hospital food catering.
But I think hospitals can do better and they really
(13:32):
need to definitely take out processed meats as number one priority.
S2 (13:37):
Now, as I'm speaking to you today, I'm looking at
a young woman you were diagnosed at. How old were
you when you were diagnosed?
S3 (13:45):
I was 44 and my children were just nine and 11.
S2 (13:49):
That must have come as such a terrible shock.
S3 (13:52):
Oh, it was absolutely horrendous. And I'm anyone who's had
a cancer diagnosis. Would appreciate that. It sort of it
started off bad and got worse as the day one
particular week went on because you have scans and then
by the end of the week, I was told I
had stage four cancer with a major big tumor, probably
a lime sized tumor in my sigmoid colon, and I
(14:12):
had at least 5 or 6 tumors in my liver.
And I just thought it was November and I thought,
this is my last Christmas. I didn't know enough about
about the treatment. I didn't know anything at that point.
But at that moment I was told I thought that
was it. And that was really, really difficult. My children
were so young. I was flying high. I just had
(14:33):
my first book published, which later won me a Walkley
on the George Pell matter and literally just had this
wonderful book launch. I was invited to lots of festivals
and to do speeches and everything came to a halt.
Everything stopped, everything was cancelled, and that was very, very difficult.
Obviously I soon got a great team and a And
(14:55):
a plan was made. I researched the hell out of it,
being a journalist, of course, and I thought, nah, I'm
going to get through this. I'm there is no way
this is killing me. I just got it in my
head and I just focused on the goal. That goal. Um.
And I was stubborn as anything. Um, look, a lot
of people are. I was also lucky the cancer I
had didn't spread to bones or lungs or brain, which,
(15:18):
unfortunately does happen with bowel cancer. As I said, I've
lost friends. That's happened to. So there was some luck
involved that we were able to control it. So it
didn't do that. But, um, I just, I just I
never forgot this phrase from Tony Robbins, um, the life coach,
and he just said, um, he said to this group,
why did you fail? Um, and they put lots of
(15:38):
reasons up. And he said, no, you failed because you
didn't use every single resource available to you. And I
never forgot that. So I've had four oncologists. I've had
to fire three, and only because I wanted to seek
new ideas, nothing personal against them. I'd probably been in
every hospital in Melbourne. I've contacted the top bowel surgeons
(15:58):
in the world and had consultations with them or, you know,
just found them on Facebook and sent them messages. I
just was absolutely determined. I thought, no, I need my
kids need me. I love my life. I love being
a journalist. I've got to live. And I just was
I was just on a mission. So far, so good.
But it's been hard. I've been chopped to pieces. I've
(16:20):
lost quite a lot of internal organs. I got the
main ones, the ones I need, which is good.
S2 (16:40):
So, Lucy, prior to this crashing diagnosis, had you had
any intimation that something was wrong, did you have any
idea that you might be potentially quite unwell?
S3 (16:51):
Well, interestingly, this is a whole nother area of patient
advocacy that I'm hoping to help with. I did go
to a GP a year before. In fact, I presented
at an emergency department a year before with abdominal pains.
But as a woman, you know, you can get dismissed
as all sorts of things. And this is an issue.
And also, you know, they can say, oh, was it
food poisoning in your own mind? You're like, well, I
(17:11):
did have sushi yesterday. And then the pains went and
then I went back. And then a doctor said it
was diverticulitis, which was a bad guess, unfortunately. And she
gave me antibiotics and they worked in quotes. And so
her foot went off the pedal and so did mine.
And then I was promoting my book and everything. And
then the pains came back. And eventually I had a
(17:33):
colonoscopy nearly a year after my first pains. And I'd
gone to the doctors. I'd gone to the hospital. Um,
this happens a lot, especially among GP's with young onset
cancer situations where they think you're too young. Um, and
there's a big campaign with Bowel Cancer Australia that's run
for a long time called Never Too Young. Um, and
I really support that because it's not just an old
(17:56):
person's disease. There's more and more young people. In fact, 11%
of all those 15,000 Australians who are being diagnosed with
bowel cancer each year are under 50. So I was
one of those. But yeah, by the time I was diagnosed,
I had my colonoscopy and I woke up and I
was taken into a side room and she said the
(18:16):
tumour was so big the camera couldn't get past it.
That was the start of that bad week whereby the
end of the week, they found it was in my liver.
And it was such a shame because a year before,
if I'd been diagnosed properly and had the scans, perhaps
it hadn't spread to my liver at that point. And
that's quite an easy fix. Generally stage 1 or 2
bowel cancer. Look, it's a it's a bowel resection quite
(18:37):
often maybe some chemotherapy. But you can be completely cured
for life. But I'd come past that. And that's why
it was such a shock. It was terrible.
S2 (18:46):
It's quite alarming that bowel cancer is increasing among young people.
Why do you think that's the case?
S3 (18:55):
Oh, look, there's there's lots of new studies and they're
desperately researching it. There needs to be more research. Um,
they're looking at low calcium, low activity. Other risky lifestyle
factors like smoking ultra processed foods is a massive one.
They're looking at, you know, there's consuming sugary drinks and
fast food, um, not doing homemade foods so much anymore. Um,
(19:16):
but the gut biome is a mysterious thing. There's a
lot more research that needs to be done into bowel cancer. Um,
there's all sorts of things that can be linked as well.
Like the use of antibiotics, tooth decay. Um, there is more.
So I'm not saying processed meats is is is the
only thing, but it's something that I thought was so
embedded in our society and is becoming more so. And
(19:37):
it just felt like a really good thing to, for
me to really focus on, um, because it has such
established risks. But no one's listening. And the government and
I think there needs to be clear labelling on meats,
on some meats like sausages, because they can, for example,
they contain sulfates quite often, and people can be allergic.
There's a warning sign. I would like warning signs on
(19:58):
here on on all processed meats that there's a bowel
cancer risk that they contain nitrates. But that's not happening.
S2 (20:04):
Yeah, it's certainly not happening. And it's alarming to for
young people because, um, the reality is with the cost
of living, we are buying more processed foods because they're cheaper.
S3 (20:16):
Absolutely.
S2 (20:17):
Food and vegetables cost a lot more. Yeah. And also
with the pace of living now, there isn't, as you say,
you said a moment ago, there isn't a lot of
time devoted to home cooking, restaurant meals, takeaway. All of
those avenues for buying food are potentially unhealthy because they
contain large amounts of sodium, large amounts of fat in
(20:41):
sauces and creams. It's a problem, isn't it?
S3 (20:44):
It is. And when you also. And I. By the way,
I have no judgement on a family or a mum
or dad who, because of budget restraints, are buying processed meats. Um,
growing up, I mentioned I was with a single mom
in in Hampshire, in England, and she bought a Fray
Bentos pie quite often. Um, or she would buy she
didn't have a car sometimes. And she cycled to the shop,
(21:06):
the corner shop where there was bacon that would last
a while in our fridge and would be tasty, though
of course there wasn't the warnings. Um, there are now.
There was really not the research either. Um, but look,
that's just economically and that's often there's food insecurity that
in this country at the moment. And so, you know,
at Costco, um, you see people queuing up for the
(21:28):
199 hot dog, which is probably one of the cheapest
ways of eating in this country in terms of takeaway,
because it includes a drink that you can refill and refill,
and they've got the whole family. And I don't judge that.
That's what they need to do to feed their family.
If you want to, you can buy a, you know,
a 12 sausages in Aldi. Um, you know, for less
than $10. And again, that feeds those children. And so
(21:50):
it's a shame that they're turning to processed meats, but
sometimes you have to. So I'm coming this with no
judgment whatsoever in terms of what people are choosing, but
it certainly paints a picture of the worrisome ways these
the chemicals in them, the way they're being produced and
people are eating them because they are cheap and there
is this economic pressure as well. So that's another thing
(22:11):
in the mix that's worrying.
S2 (22:13):
In a way, the link between processed foods and and
bowel cancer has been around for generations. I had a
discussion with my own gastroenterologist about this only a year
or two ago, and he was saying that in Japan,
bowel cancer was absolutely so rare that they hardly had
(22:34):
in the entire country of Japan, any bowel cancer specialists
in the 1970s right through until the late 1980s. But
after Japan switched to Western eating, the levels of bowel
cancer soared. so there is the evidence, although it be
(22:55):
an historical one, that there is a definite link, isn't there?
We just have to look outside of our own country
and our own experience to see that there is a
direct link with bowel cancer and processed, highly processed foods.
S3 (23:10):
Absolutely. I do focus on the number one country with
the most bowel cancer deaths is Slovakia, and they're also
the number one consumers of processed meats. I found out
when I compared those two charts. Look again there can
be variables when with bowel cancer statistics because of healthcare,
of monitoring, testing, etc. plus, you know, there's other lifestyle
(23:33):
factors such as smoking and obesity. But look, I thought
it was an interesting thing to find out considering they
are the number one consumers of processed meats. But yes,
as you say, there's countries in the world who, you know,
in Mozambique, for example, might be more rice and beans
on the diet than not so much sausages and ham
and pepperoni and their bowel cancer rates are much lower. Um, but,
(23:55):
you know, these things are being introduced to countries which
previously didn't eat them, like you say, in Japan. And
that just shows the impact it can have on bowel
cancer rates.
S2 (24:04):
Now, Lucy, you're the third person. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In in Australia with stage four bowel cancer to have
a liver transplant. Is that right?
S3 (24:15):
Yes. That's right. It's been a very interesting journey in
the last year. I feel incredibly, incredibly lucky during this
five year journey of mine. The idea of a liver
transplant was never on the table. I used to sometimes
ask several times and they said no, because it's you've
got static cancer, and if it's somewhere else, it would
just take off because of the immune suppressants you'd have
(24:36):
to take. And then suddenly, um, a friend in the
bowel cancer community, I asked him how he was one day. Luckily,
I asked him and he said, I'm great. I've just
become the first person in Australia to have a liver
transplant with bowel cancer, and I nearly just dropped my
phone and fell over. And I just said, please tell
me the name of your surgeon who happened to be
(24:58):
in Sydney, sort of doing a clinical trial effectively. Um, and,
and then I contacted him, um, in the time that
I was contacting him, he did a second, um, transplant,
which was basically the next door neighbor of my friend
in Gippsland who was a young mum with four kids. And,
and she just happened to hear about it through him.
(25:18):
And she had a successful, um, liver transplant. And then, um,
I did get offered to go to Sydney, but thankfully
I just started with a new oncologist, Doctor Niall Tebbutt,
who's wonderful. And, um, he had just come under his
care and he said, let me speak to the team here.
I don't know if they're ready to change protocol. I
know they've talked about it. And then by the end
(25:39):
of the day, I got a call saying, you can
have it here in Melbourne at the Austin. And that
was just that was over just about a year ago.
And that was an amazing turn of events. And I
was thrilled for about one minute. And then I was
terrified and I thought, oh my gosh, You don't grow
up in your life thinking you're going to have a
liver transplant. Um, but I waited, um, about. I can't
be precise. Um, unfortunately, on when I had it, just
(26:01):
because of the protocol of not being linked to the
family of the donor. But I did have it in
the second part of last year. Um, and it was
brutal and difficult. And I've had complications, which are very common. Um,
but I've had it and I've now been cured of
stage four bowel cancer, which not many people can say.
And I feel so lucky. And I've lost, as I said,
(26:24):
very close friends who didn't get this chance. So I
feel so grateful. I'm so grateful to the donor and
their family. Um, I haven't really had time to process
it all. Um, but I'm absolutely thrilled with those medical
decisions and advances. Um, Australia is one of only few
countries to do this. Um, and it's because of amazing
(26:44):
research and, um, forward thinking from people in a particular
surgeon in France who did a did a big trial
of this. And he realized that if rectal cancer patients
could have liver transplants or the ones he gave liver
transplants to, they were still 75% were still alive after
five years. So that was that gave everyone all around
(27:07):
the world a boost. New Zealand hasn't done them yet,
but England has just done their first, so there's not
many of us. So I just feel so lucky, um,
and grateful and relieved.
S2 (27:20):
It's wonderful news for you, Lucy. It's for somebody who's
read the book and felt, I mean, at some distance,
I might say, but. But still felt, you know, your
journey quite closely. It's it's very gratifying news. So tell us,
how are you travelling now?
S3 (27:36):
Um. I'm good today. Look, it's only it's only been
a few months. Um, unfortunately, a quarter of all transplant
patients have the risk of bile duct, um, complications, and
I do have that. Um, but my team are team
are amazing. We're dealing with that. I've had a couple
of procedures in the last couple of weeks to help
deal with that, and it's a day by day thing. Um,
(27:58):
hopefully that will be resolved. Um, they're very clever at
the Austin and world class people. Absolutely. World class care. Um,
so I'm just moving through that at the moment, but
I'm very hopeful that can be resolved. Um, and I
just keep moving. As I said, I'll never give up.
Whatever happens, I'll never quit. And that's just how I
have it in my mind, I have to. My children
are 14 and 16. I want to see them get married.
(28:22):
I want to be there for everything. And, um. Yeah,
as you can tell, I'm pretty stubborn. Um, and it's
taken four open operations, a liver transplant, and I'm not.
Many of us live beyond five years, and I've lived
five years, two months. And I just again, very, very grateful. Um,
one of my best friends I made, I dedicate the
(28:42):
book to him, Kieran Gall. He is a snow entrepreneur who, um,
from Pambula, New South Wales. He became one of my
best friends, along with his wife. Life, and he lost
his fight in November 2023. And he knew I was
writing this book and he was so proud I was
doing it. And I quote him in the book a
couple of times, and I just think of people like that,
and that motivates me to keep moving forward, to take
(29:04):
risks with the book and to keep trying to get cured.
I mean, I have been cured of stage four bowel cancer,
but a liver transplant, you know, brings new issues, but
the cancer is not at risk of spreading around my body.
So as far as I'm concerned, I'm still extremely lucky,
even though I do have some complications.
S2 (29:23):
And we're very lucky that you've written this book, because
I think, to my knowledge, it's probably the very first
really comprehensive analysis of the medical research and other evidence
against eating processed meats. So thank you, Lucy. Thank you
for joining us today.
S3 (29:42):
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
S1 (30:00):
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate
and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning
in for more compelling conversations coming soon. We chat with
the CEO of Music Australia, Millie Millgate, about the many
challenges facing the music industry today. Good Weekend Talks is
brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
(30:22):
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe.
Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
Weekend Talks is produced by Chee Wong. Technical assistance from
Cormac Lally. Editing from Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head
of audio and Katrina Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
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