December 12, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, we talk to Tania Lacy. The comedy pioneer became one of the biggest stars on Australian television in the 1980s, but at the height of her fame, Lacy seemingly vanished without explanation. In this revealing interview, she opens up about the reasons for her sudden disappearance, including her controversial sacking by the ABC; her addictions to heroin and alcohol; her mental health challenges; the damaging rumours spread by her peers; and a Hollywood dream that turned into a nightmare. Reflecting on what it was like being a young woman in a male-dominated industry, Lacy talks about all this and more in a feature story in the magazine this weekend - Disappearing Act - and hosting this conversation is the journalist behind that profile piece, The Age’s senior culture writer, Michael Lallo. Listeners should be advised that this episode deals with suicide and depression. If you are seeking help, please contact Lifeline on 13 11 14.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:14):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:36):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Tanya Lacey. The comedy pioneer became one of the biggest
stars on Australian television in the 1990s. But at the
height of her fame, Lacey seemingly vanished without explanation. In
this revealing interview, she opens up about the reasons for
her sudden disappearance, including her controversial sacking by the ABC,
(00:59):
her addictions to heroin and alcohol, her mental health challenges,
the damaging rumors spread by her peers, and a Hollywood
dream that turned into a nightmare. Reflecting on what it
was like being a young woman in a male dominated industry,
Lacey talks about all this and more in a feature
story in the magazine this weekend. Disappearing act and hosting
(01:21):
this conversation is the journalist behind that profile piece, The
Age's senior culture writer Michael Lallo. Listeners should be advised
that this episode deals with suicide and depression. If you
are seeking help, please contact lifeline on 13 1114.
S2 (01:40):
Thanks. Conrad and Tanya, welcome.
S3 (01:42):
Hi there.
S2 (01:43):
Now let's start with the unexpectedly eventful phone call that
you and I had in early November. What happened?
S3 (01:53):
Well, I was talking to you on the phone as
I was, um, just getting my things ready for work,
and I was walking down the front stairs. It was
a very rainy day and I slipped, fell and broke
my back.
S2 (02:08):
Literally broke your back.
S3 (02:09):
Broke my back. Michael.
S2 (02:13):
Are you okay?
S3 (02:15):
I'm still in pain. Like, and I, I have I
can only stand for so long. I can only sit
for so long. I can only you know, it's not
like I was before this accident. So it's just a
question of waiting for the bones to heal. And as
we all know well, who is good at patience, you know.
S2 (02:33):
Yes. Now, a lot of our listeners will remember you
from TV shows like The Factory and Countdown Revolution, which
aired on ABC in the late 80s early 90s. What
role did Molly Meldrum play in giving you your very
first appearance on television?
S3 (02:53):
Well, I was a countdown dancer, and one day I
was mucking around in the studio before we were doing
the taping and he came through and I was actually
impersonating him, and he came through and said, I'm going
to get you to open the show. And apparently he
went into the green room and was like, got this girl.
She's going to open the show. So I did that.
And then a couple of weeks later, I got a
(03:13):
call from Grant rule saying, we'd like you to audition
for this new show that we're doing.
S2 (03:17):
And Grant rule was the executive producer of countdown.
S3 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, I don't even know
how they got my number. Seriously. And I turned up,
and I thought that all the dancers had been called
and all the dancers. And I turned up thinking it
was going to be a dance audition.
S2 (03:34):
You were part of a crew?
S3 (03:35):
Yeah. And no, it was just me talking to her.
S2 (03:38):
And it was just you now. Countdown. Of course, a
lot of people might know this, but you actually played
a part in helping Kylie Minogue launch her singing career.
Tell us about that.
S3 (03:50):
Well, you know, everything Kylie is today is because of me. No,
not at all. Not even close. Um, well, um, I
was on countdown when I was approached by Amanda Pelman,
who had signed Kylie, and she asked me if I'd
be interested in choreographing a film clip for Kylie, and
(04:12):
I said yes. And so we did, uh, locomotion.
S2 (04:17):
Her very first music video.
S3 (04:19):
Yeah. And, you know, I did a couple of other
clips too. But yeah, that was the big one. That
was the first one, and it was amazing. She was
an incredible, quietly confident person, very keen in doing a
great job. And there was no drama, no nothing. It
was just great.
S2 (04:40):
Yeah. You've never said this publicly before, but as a choreographer,
you feel that you let Kylie down in terms of
your work on locomotion. Why do you feel that way?
S3 (04:51):
I think because there were a lot of factors coming
into play. There was like, um, things like we had
to wear these, this wardrobe, and we were all club dancers,
but I didn't feel like in the wardrobe that we
were wearing that I could sort of do the moves
that I really wanted to put in the clip.
S2 (05:10):
Those sexy club moves that were really popular in the
late 80s.
S3 (05:14):
You needed the bike shorts. You needed the crop top.
La la la la la. And you know, also, Kylie
was very I'm not going to say she was very
innocent at that point. She hadn't been exposed to a lot.
And so I was kind of tenderly kind of trying to,
you know, I didn't want to do anything that was
(05:34):
going to upset her. And I think I just felt
like it fell short, you know. But then she went
on to England and she was exposed to a lot
more life, you know, different fashion, different clubs, different music,
different everything. And I watched her grow as a person.
And as that happened, her performance evolved? Yes. And I
(05:58):
think just, you know, we were just very early on
in her career and, um, none of that had been educated,
if you like. And I really didn't feel like I
could push it as far as I wanted to push it.
S2 (06:10):
Yeah. When you met Kylie through locomotion, you hit it
off straight away. Occasionally, she'd drop by and visit you
in your little bedsit, flooding. Q what would you and
Kylie Minogue talk about?
S3 (06:22):
Um, I can't really remember, but I do remember, she
told me, because no one knew that she was dating Jason.
And I do remember she talked to me about that.
S2 (06:31):
And this was a huge deal. I mean, Kylie and
Jason Donovan.
S3 (06:35):
Um, so no one knew about that, but she did
talk to me about that. Yeah, I really liked her.
I wished that we'd remained friends, you know, remained in touch,
but it just wasn't to be.
S2 (06:46):
Well, she went to the UK.
S3 (06:47):
Yeah. And I had my own, you know, path to follow. And. Yeah,
I'd really like to see her these days. I'd really
like to talk to her and Yes. You know.
S2 (06:57):
Yeah, yeah. Now, for someone who was so well known
as a comedian and TV presenter, you never actually aspired
to be either of those things when you were growing up.
What did you want to be?
S3 (07:11):
I wanted to be a dancer. There was just no
two ways about it. That was my lifelong goal. And
I just loved it. There was. I could never do
too much ballet.
S2 (07:22):
And this was from basically the time you could stand.
You were already. I mean.
S3 (07:27):
We moved around a lot. So, you know, I did
ballet in Toowoomba for like three months, and then we
were off to Singapore, and then I did ballet in
Singapore for a little bit, and then we came back
to Melbourne. But you know, my parents weren't were not
as committed as I was. I was like, really? You know, like, mum, dad,
you need to lift your game.
S2 (07:45):
Um, you were a tiger child, not a tiger mum.
S3 (07:48):
Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, mum, I just don't feel
like taking you. And I'd just be like, come on,
we need to lift our game. I want to go. So, yeah,
I guess when I started in Glen Waverley when I
was about 11, that was when I was like, just
so in love with it. This is what I wanted
to do.
S2 (08:07):
Yeah. You were so good at ballet that at the
age of 12, you auditioned for the Victorian College of
the Arts and you were accepted. Why on earth did
you turn that offer down?
S3 (08:20):
Well, because, Michael, I thought they'd made a mistake. Um,
I remember when I auditioned, they, um, the lead auditioner.
He pulled me aside and asked me to do some
jumps for him, and then they were sort of pointing
at my legs and my body and oh, so much talent.
Shame about the body and.
S2 (08:39):
Shame about the body.
S3 (08:40):
Yeah, and that's the comment that pursued me through my
dance career. I mean.
S2 (08:46):
As in other people made that comment too.
S3 (08:49):
Yeah, because I had talent, but I didn't have the body.
S2 (08:54):
And in their mind, what was the deficiency?
S3 (08:59):
I have short limbs.
S2 (09:00):
But you were still an extremely talented ballerina.
S3 (09:04):
It didn't matter in those days. Nowadays I look at
dancers and I'm like, wow, I could have made it
today because, hey, she's got a body like an athlete.
S2 (09:13):
But also here's this, here's this young woman, this girl
who is extremely talented and strong physically and mentally. And
yet your strength was seen as a weakness.
S3 (09:25):
Mm. Yeah. I mean, things have changed nowadays. Dancers do
have varied shapes. Yes. And, you know, you can be
quite athletic. You don't have to be a, you know,
a willow. You can be an athletic looking dancer and,
you know, make a career out of it.
S2 (09:43):
Yeah. Back in the 80s, I remember hearing the mums
at my primary school talking about, um, the girls at school,
and they'd say things like, oh, she's such a gorgeous
looking girl. Beautiful face, but oh, look at the size
of her. And these comments were routine. How common was
it for adults to comment on girls bodies when you
(10:05):
were growing up?
S3 (10:06):
It was par for the course. It was like a right,
you know? Now it's incredibly offensive. And you wouldn't do it. Well,
you'd hope you wouldn't. But it was something that people
did talk about. I think the acceptance of different shapes
has been, um, you know, such a progression. But at
the same time, at the moment, I'm just watching everyone
(10:28):
get extremely thin. You know, I'm seeing it in the
jawlines of people. Like, it's just gotten crazy again. And, um,
there was only one shape that you were allowed to be,
and that was thin. And it wasn't just thin, it
was achieved thinness that people wanted. It wasn't just that
you were born thin. You had to have that achieved
(10:50):
thinness and that showed your dedication and that. And this
was in dance and showbiz as well.
S2 (10:58):
Yeah.
S3 (10:59):
So, yeah.
S2 (11:00):
Now, 1984, you'd finished high school. You auditioned again for
the Victorian College of the Arts, and you're accepted. The
middle of your second year, one week before your 21st birthday,
something awful happened. Tell us about that.
S3 (11:16):
Well, a drunk teacher dropped me in class as I
was doing a split leap. He lifted me above his
head and then, of course, couldn't guide me to the ground.
He wasn't holding my body and so dropped me backwards
and I snapped my leg, bottom half from the top
half of the knee joint.
S2 (11:34):
And you had no idea that he was even going
to pick you up to touch you?
S3 (11:38):
No.
S2 (11:38):
As far as you knew, you were doing a split
leap by yourself.
S3 (11:42):
That's right.
S2 (11:43):
And then all of a sudden, there's this man's hands
on your body, and you come crashing to the studio
floor and tear two knee ligaments. How excruciating was the pain?
S3 (11:57):
It was extremely excruciating because if I'd done a clean tear,
it probably wouldn't have been as painful. But I had
one little strand hanging, so it was extremely painful. Um,
I did have surgery and extensive rehab. Um, but it
was never the same.
S2 (12:16):
Um, because, of course, classical ballet is so physically demanding.
That injury effectively ended your dreams of being a professional ballerina.
What did you do next?
S3 (12:28):
Okay, well, when I realized I just couldn't keep up,
which was the problem, because my leg just couldn't didn't
have the strength and it was too loose my knee joint.
I went into commercial dance and I started choreographing fashion parades. Um,
and they were fashion parades with a point of difference,
you know, like they were very theatrical. And I did
(12:50):
parades for Lindy Lane West, Co Pitigliano. You know, and
at that point too, um, prior to Bettinelli, I know
having her own store that her and her sister had
a store with all these Melbourne designers. So they were
the young Melbourne designers. So I choreographed for all of
those people. And we put on these amazing parades at like,
(13:11):
you know, nightclubs across Melbourne. Yeah. And they were always
received really well. And, you know, I was making a
living as a choreographer. It was amazing.
S2 (13:20):
And you thought, this is my new career and I
love it.
S3 (13:23):
Yep. Totally.
S2 (13:26):
And then you got the call from Grant rule?
S3 (13:28):
Yes.
S2 (13:29):
The former producer of countdown. And so 1987, the ABC
axed countdown, and they needed a new music based show.
And that's when Grant came up with A factory, which
aired on Saturday mornings. Now, you were meant to be
a kind of youth reporter for the show. How did
(13:49):
you end up writing, producing, and editing your own comedic sketches?
S3 (13:55):
So essentially, I had this space where I could just
do my own thing, and I had a like minded
producer who saw potential and encouraged me. Yes. And so
and I had my cameraman and my sound guy. And
so together we just stuck together. We did all these
(14:16):
outrageous things. We had so much fun. We were together
every day. And, you know, then I started writing sketches
and characters and. And this producer, let's go for it.
Let's go for it. And so I really carved out
my own space. And then suddenly it was like, well,
who is this girl that's getting the fan mail, you know?
(14:37):
And who is? Why are the press swinging for Tanya?
Who's Tanya? Um.
S2 (14:42):
Because ABC's publicity department had done nothing to promote you
by this point.
S3 (14:46):
I didn't even have a fan card for the show.
And then when I did get one, I would put
it up in the foyer, you know, because they had
the the hosts up there, but they didn't have me.
S2 (14:56):
So yes. So the two male co-hosts were up there
but not, you.
S3 (15:00):
Know.
S2 (15:01):
And on that foyer in ABC's Elsternwick studios, what was
the proportion of male versus female presenters?
S3 (15:09):
I think there was one female presenter and her name
was Mary Delahunty.
S2 (15:13):
Who was reading the news at the time.
S3 (15:15):
Correct.
S2 (15:16):
So when you would stick your photo up, you instantly
doubled the number of female faces on display.
S3 (15:22):
Indeed I did. Well, yes.
S2 (15:28):
And how long would the photo stay up before somebody.
S3 (15:31):
Oh, it'd be gone by the end of the day. So,
you know, every day I'd put it up and every
day someone would pull it down.
S2 (15:41):
Now it was the factory where you came up with
some of your most memorable characters. Um. And this includes Carlos,
the lecherous lover of Annette, the librarian. What were the
inspirations for these characters?
S3 (15:57):
One was an ex-boyfriend for Carlos, and then just Carlos became, um,
I don't know, a voice that I didn't have as
a woman. Um, so it was very convenient. Um, so.
S2 (16:12):
You could speak as a man?
S3 (16:14):
Yeah, I could.
S2 (16:15):
And how is that different to speaking as a woman?
S3 (16:18):
You get away with a lot more, um, and you
can have crazy opinions, and people don't. Are not offended.
S2 (16:27):
Were you allowed to be more risque and boundary pushing
in your.
S3 (16:30):
Totally. One time I said one thing, and management was
down there. Don't ever say that again on air. And
I was like, well, maybe if you watched my stories
before they went to air, you know, like, it's no
good coming to me afterwards and going, this is wrong.
S2 (16:46):
The minute you stick a mustache on and put on
a bad wig. Suddenly you can get away with anything.
S3 (16:51):
I got away with so much saying so much stuff
that was just sexist, you know, to make a point.
I was like, aware that I was able to make
this point now.
S2 (17:01):
Annette, the librarian, one of your most memorable characters, as
I call her, she's a sweetly vulnerable dork. You've said
that she is the character who is the closest to
you in real life. In what ways are you like Annette?
S3 (17:19):
Annette, um, is someone who, despite appearances, is not afraid
to be herself. She, um, has very high expectations of,
you know, like honorable expectations of herself and others. And
she's smart. Yes.
S2 (17:40):
Yeah.
S3 (17:41):
She's smart. And.
S2 (17:43):
Yeah, not only is she smart, though, she seems to
be hesitant About telling the world that she's smart, or
showing the world that she's smart.
S3 (17:51):
Well, yeah, you don't want to do that as a woman. Um,
that's going to get you into trouble. Um, I learned
that the hard way. Um, I think I, I knew
very early on. I mean, you know, how, like, say
you were good at drawing, right? And you looked around
the classroom and you went, oh, my God, I'm better
than the other kids. You kind of know stuff, right?
(18:13):
As a child. Yeah, well, I knew I wasn't good
at drawing, but I did know I was smart. And
because I looked around the room and I did get
things quicker than others, and I did catch on, and
I got good marks. Yes. So I was aware that
I was smart, but I also became very aware very
early on in life. Don't show people that you're smart.
(18:35):
It's not going to help you.
S2 (18:36):
And how did you learn that? What are some examples?
By being.
S3 (18:40):
Humiliated.
S2 (18:41):
Humiliated.
S3 (18:42):
Humiliated. Literally humiliated by teachers or whatever. who just, you know,
like this was a problem to have someone who was
in the classroom who was actually advanced. This was an issue.
S2 (18:56):
So say a teacher asks a question and you answered
it correctly. Could that sometimes provoke a negative response?
S3 (19:04):
Not you. Someone else? Or how about the time the
teacher threw my pencil out the window and said, go
and get it?
S2 (19:10):
Uh, why?
S3 (19:11):
Because she asked. Okay, I understand what. Okay. She asked
everyone to stop because they weren't understanding the concept that
she was explaining. But I only had two to go,
so I was like, I'm just gonna finish this. And
I didn't put my pencil down. So she grabbed my pencil,
threw it out the window and said, go and get it.
S2 (19:28):
And how often did those things happen to the male students?
S3 (19:31):
Never. Not in my not in my presence anyway.
S2 (19:35):
So right from when you were a girl, in many
different ways, in many different realms, you were getting the
message that, uh, smart women shouldn't show that they're too smart.
S3 (19:48):
I, I really did become quite afraid of people knowing
that I was clever. It became quite a fear.
S2 (19:56):
This is such a contrast to the confidence you had
when you were four years old. I mean, this story
to me is so illustrative because, uh, you told your
mum that you were going to visit your brother at
primary school, and your mum happily waved you off because
she thought you were going to play with the boy
next door like you normally did. You actually walked. What
(20:19):
was it, a kilometre.
S3 (20:21):
A couple of kilometres, a.
S2 (20:22):
Couple of kilometres over busy roads to get to to
this primary school. And you were four and you did
that by yourself?
S3 (20:30):
I did. And then by the time I got back home,
the police were there. My mother's crying, showing pictures. This
is what she looks like. Um, yeah, I did do that.
And I remember not being the slightest bit afraid.
S2 (20:45):
Wow.
S3 (20:46):
Just like I'm going to school.
S2 (20:49):
But then, of course, once you're at school and you
started receiving these messages in many different ways, it seemed
like that slowly began chipping away at your confidence that
your view of yourself.
S3 (21:02):
And I think that I think that women who show
talent in, you know, whether it is art or whatever,
art I think is a little bit different because it
doesn't require, you know, a voice like the evidence is
there in whatever they create. Yes. But, you know, like,
(21:23):
I don't know why, but I just felt like, you know,
I had teachers call me a smart ass, like in
year ten.
S2 (21:30):
And were you being as smart as or just smart?
S3 (21:33):
Um, I don't think I was being a smart ass,
but I would stand up for myself if I felt
something that was unjust. And that's not appropriate.
S2 (21:41):
It's already a violation of gender norms.
S3 (21:43):
Yeah. So that was that was a big problem for
some teachers. Yeah. Um, and if they felt that they
were doing something unfair, I could argue quite well with them. Why?
I didn't believe it was fair. And that too was quite, um,
you know, off putting for them, I think.
S2 (22:01):
And the fact that you're a girl, do you think,
added to their, if not humiliation, just annoyance?
S3 (22:08):
Yeah. Well, yeah. And I mean, I even feel stupid
saying that I'm clever. Like, but why shouldn't I say
I'm clever? Like, why? Why should I be afraid to
say that.
S2 (22:18):
Mhm. Now right from the start of your media career,
you were very popular with viewers, but there were certain
groups of people that you were particularly popular with. Who
(22:38):
were those people?
S3 (22:39):
Anyone who was an outsider. I have had people talk
to me to this very day about this. You know, like,
I had one guy in Adelaide who told me that
I saved his life and I was like, how did
I save your life? And he said, I was a
gay boy in a country town in South Australia. You know,
you showed me I could be who I wanted to be.
(23:01):
And I was just so deeply touched by that. You know,
and I hear things like that a lot from people,
women who tell me you showed me I could be
anything I wanted to be. You know, like, I get
a lot of messages still to that people saying that
to me and their messages even now. Yeah.
S2 (23:19):
So people who saw sketches, you know, 35, almost 40
years ago, it had such an impact that they're still
contacting you now. Mhm.
S3 (23:28):
Yeah. And even when my husband and I came to Australia,
he couldn't believe it when we'd walk down the street
and people would come up to me and make comment
like you showed me I could be anything I wanted
to be, or you gave me the confidence to try
this or, you know, he just couldn't believe.
S2 (23:46):
It because your husband, of course, you met in LA
and then you lived in Berlin. So, uh, he didn't
know you as a famous person until you came to Australia.
So that would have been quite an experience for him.
S3 (23:57):
Yeah, he was kind of shocked. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (24:00):
Why do you think your work resonated so strongly with
those outsiders? What was it that those people were connecting with?
S3 (24:10):
Well, there were all of a similar age, and I
guess that age is the age where you can be rebellious.
And I think that spoke to a generation, the rebellion element, the. Well,
I'm not going to listen to that. I'm going to
do this instead. Oh, you're not making sense by saying that.
So I'd like to point out this, and I think
(24:30):
that that was the kind of thing that they latched
on to. Um, you know, this person has a voice
and I want that voice. So, I mean, I was
really fortunate because I feel like I wasn't just a celebrity.
I made a difference in a way. And that to me,
is what I am so proud of. You know, like that.
(24:53):
I actually feel like I, I helped people in some way,
that my humor was really worthwhile.
S2 (25:01):
And for you, that was a lot more important than
just getting your mug on telly.
S3 (25:05):
Oh, yeah. God, yeah, yeah.
S2 (25:07):
Yeah. It was 1989 that the ABC ended the factory
and decided to launch Countdown Revolution, uh, which was created
by Molly Meldrum as a kind of successor program to countdown. Um,
even though he wasn't going to be in front of
the camera himself. Now, this was a big, ambitious show.
(25:28):
It was five nights a week, uh, 6:30 p.m. prime
time on the national broadcaster. It got off to a
bit of a wobbly start, and after a while it
was rejigged. And You and Mark little, who played Joe
Mangel on Neighbours, were appointed as the co-hosts. What was
(25:50):
it that the producers told you they wanted from you
and Mark?
S3 (25:54):
They wanted anarchy.
S2 (25:56):
Anarchy.
S3 (25:57):
Anarchy they. That word was thrown around like confetti. It
was just anarchy. Anarchic. I'm sure they made up anarchy, words,
you know, anarchy, Buddhism. Um. I just was ridiculous how
much it was thrown about. And that's what they wanted.
They wanted our opinions. They wanted, you know, all those things.
(26:18):
But it turns out they didn't. So they wanted anarchy.
Just not that kind of anarchy.
S2 (26:25):
So they're telling you they want a reference. Unpredictability. The
whole thing, the the honest album reviews, the whole the
whole parcel. The reality, though, was very different. What would
happen when you tried to deliver on what they asked
you for.
S3 (26:43):
Well, what started happening is the show started rating. And so,
you know, the show was gaining some power. Yeah. So
then it became stop tape. No, you can't say that. Uh,
we'll do that again. Ah, okay. What was wrong?
S2 (27:02):
As time goes by, you will Mark. Little are becoming
increasingly frustrated because not only could you not give your
honest opinions. Um, you also weren't allowed to let the
musicians perform live, which seemed very strange as well. So
you decided to stage a protest by going on strike
(27:23):
while you were live on television? What do you remember
about that episode?
S3 (27:30):
Well, I think actually that episode was the best episode
of Countdown Revolution that we ever did. It was exactly
what they wanted. You know, they were cutting away quickly.
They were going to this. They were going to that.
It was alive. It was vibrant. We weren't standing there
for like two minutes until the director cut to the clip.
You know, it was just like we were out. They
were gone. Music was playing. I think it was the
(27:52):
closest thing we'd ever done to the show that they
actually wanted.
S2 (27:56):
I mean, I I've seen that episode a number of
times now. Um, what I recall is that it opened
with Mark, uh, scrunching up the run sheet, which is, um,
the list of what's going to happen in the episode.
And then you held up a placard saying TV is
a lie. Um, and then you held up the phone
(28:17):
numbers for the switchboards of every ABC station in the
country and urge viewers to jam the switchboards. Um, and
this all happened within the space of a few minutes. Um,
at what point did the control room cut the live
feed and switch to music videos?
S3 (28:36):
Um, pretty quickly. But then they came. They were running
a clip and they said to us, okay, you've got
two minutes. Say your thing and then you're out. Yep.
But yeah, it was I don't know, it was just
such a mess, the whole thing.
S2 (28:52):
Now it's the early 1990s. You've been very publicly fired
by the ABC. You had to move back in with
your parents and you were on the dole. Mhm. It
was around that time that you tried heroin. Mhm. What
were you really seeking when you took heroin for the
first time. Were you looking for relief and escape to
(29:15):
numb the pain. What were you seeking.
S3 (29:17):
Well pain relief. I mean it's a very painful thing
to go through to actually be someone that, you know,
had so much opportunity and then to nothing. You know,
it is really painful. Um, and, you know, those invites
(29:39):
drive dry up pretty quickly. And those things that people
used to hire you for suddenly see someone else doing it.
And yeah, I was really hurt.
S2 (29:50):
Not just the invitations, though, but, um, people you thought
of as friends.
S3 (29:54):
There was no one around, Michael. There were no friends
that they all disappeared.
S2 (29:59):
Do you think they were worried they would be tainted
by association?
S3 (30:03):
I don't know. I think there was a little bit
of schadenfreude there. A little bit of joy in watching
me fall. Um.
S2 (30:11):
Why? Because you had been so successful at such a
young age.
S3 (30:14):
Yeah, because Australians loved that. You know, I was the first.
I was like, we should have filmed this. It would
have been the first reality show. Someone's fall from grace.
You know, everyone would have tuned in for that. Well, imagine.
That's actually my life. Yeah. And I really felt like, um,
people kind of did enjoy watching me fall.
S2 (30:36):
Over three months. You checked yourself into rehab seven times.
What was different about that seventh time? What made you
finally quit?
S3 (30:45):
I told my parents.
S2 (30:47):
Why?
S3 (30:48):
Because I knew that I would stay. I wouldn't get
away with it anymore.
S2 (30:54):
How hard was it to tell? Your parents.
S3 (30:56):
Are shocking. Oh, it was awful. But I knew if
I didn't, I would just keep using. And so I.
I told them.
S2 (31:05):
And it did the trick. You haven't touched heroin since.
Now you've been clean and sober now for more than
23 years, which is an incredible achievement. Yet you still
feel like people see a woman who fell apart and
never really got her shine back. Why do you think
that is?
S3 (31:25):
Probably because it's the truth. Um.
S2 (31:28):
In what way?
S3 (31:30):
Well, nothing ever really got back to where it was.
You know, I never really Made a lot of money again.
I never really, um, had the success that, you know,
I had initially when I started out. And so for me,
it just became like, oh, well, people must view me
(31:52):
as a loser because I'm clearly not winning. Um, and um, yeah,
I think it, it just I never was given the
chance to get back up there either. You know, I,
I did a very specific thing and to try and
pigeonhole me into some other thing just didn't seem to work.
S2 (32:13):
It's interesting when men conquer their drug addictions, they're treated
as oracles. People seek their advice. Um, why don't they
do that with women?
S3 (32:24):
Because it's seen as tragic, you know? So you're always
viewed as some kind of immoral tragedy.
S2 (32:31):
Mm.
S3 (32:32):
Um. But it's just mental illness.
S2 (32:35):
Mm. Paul Kelly, the musician who became friends with in
the early 90s, told me that you've had a lot
of setbacks in your life, but whenever you get blocked
in one way, you find something else to do. And
in the 90s, for you, that involved one woman shows
and involves short films. You were winning awards. Then there
(32:55):
was commercial television and you worked for seven, nine and
ten across dozens of programmes. Would it be fair to
say that commercial TV was not a good fit for you?
S3 (33:08):
Yeah, I don't think it was. Um, there were always constraints. Um.
S2 (33:13):
What kind of constraints?
S3 (33:15):
Well, I don't know. I just wasn't allowed to be
as freewheeling as I was, you know? And it was.
Advertisers were a big part of the equation. Um, it
is commercial television, you know. But I think also one
of the reasons I didn't really fit was because I
didn't have my team. You know, I didn't have my
(33:37):
my camera guy, my sound guy, my producer. We were
a team. I didn't miraculously have this career because I
did everything. I had this career because there were some
people around me who really believed in me and loved
doing what I did, too.
S2 (33:53):
Mm. People forget this about television because they see the
person on screen and they forget about all, or they
don't see all the work that goes into it behind
the scenes.
S3 (34:04):
Yeah. I mean, James Lipscomb, my cameraman Greg Parish, and
my sound guy, Chris. We were so close. Like, we
miss each other. Like James has unfortunately died. And I mean,
that was just one of the biggest blows in my life. Yeah. Um,
because we were just so tight. You know, we stuck
(34:26):
up for each other. We supported each other. You know,
this wasn't just me doing this. This was three other people.
S2 (34:35):
2008 you were diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Can you
explain a bit about what it is and what kind
of symptoms you experience personally?
S3 (34:47):
First of all, I have to say it was kind
of a relief to be diagnosed because I didn't feel
like I was moving forward with any psychological treatment. I
didn't feel like I was getting better. So it was
nice to know what I was dealing with. And I'm
dealing with a demon, you know, like it's not an
easy illness. Um.
S2 (35:04):
How does it manifest?
S3 (35:05):
It manifests in, um, extreme moods, like, very difficult to
regulate your moods. You feel very deeply. And, um, so
you will feel lost. You will feel abandonment. You will
feel these things so deeply that it becomes difficult to
(35:26):
actually function. Mhm. Um, there's, you know, some body dysphoria.
There's a lot of self-harm, whether that, um, happens via
drug addiction or actual, you know, self-harm.
S2 (35:44):
Yes.
S3 (35:45):
It can vary, um, extreme and impulsive behavior.
S2 (35:50):
Yeah. Do you feel that people ever use your borderline
personality disorder, uh, to dismiss you, to blame you, to
shift attention away from their own bad behavior?
S3 (36:02):
Yeah. Of course. I mean, that's human, isn't it? Unfortunately, it's, um.
I think it's easy to, you know, if I'm in
a situation where I might be, um. Correct. But that
doesn't want to be admitted. It's easy to go. Well,
(36:23):
you know, she's crazy. Yeah. It's very easy to just
dismiss someone because of an illness. Now, the reason, too,
that I went public with that illness is because I
hoped that I could make a difference and say, look,
you know, because a lot of people have a very
fatalistic attitude about this illness. You know, you can't cure
people with this, but you can. Mm. Um, like my
(36:46):
therapist had said to me, I think that you don't
behave like a borderline personality disorder person anymore, but you
certainly feel on the same level that you always have.
And that's true. Um, so, you know, I hoped that
announcing my illness would help people. And there are people
(37:07):
who've contacted me who have been helped by it. But
I didn't expect it to ever be quite the weapon.
It has been.
S2 (37:16):
The weapon? In what way?
S3 (37:17):
Well, it's a well known rumor, you know, she's crazy.
I don't get hired because I'm crazy.
S2 (37:24):
So it just feeds into that crazy lady trope. Yeah. Yeah.
Now I want to go to 2023 when I saw
you perform at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, the show
Everything's Coming Up Roses, it was brilliant. Um, as I've said,
I've seen probably more than 500 comedians in my time.
(37:46):
I know a good show when I see one. The
reviews were excellent, and yet that was the show that
made you decide to quit the industry altogether. Why?
S3 (37:56):
It just became apparent that nothing was going to change.
I could do this great show and I was really
proud of that show, but I wasn't going to get anywhere.
And that really made me sad, and I felt I
just couldn't continue. And I'm sorry.
S2 (38:19):
No.
S3 (38:20):
It still makes me sad because it's what I love.
But there's no I have to make a living.
S2 (38:29):
Yep.
S3 (38:29):
And I didn't.
S2 (38:31):
You lost money on that show. So it was a
it was a heartbreaking decision to have to give up
something that you had poured decades of your life into.
S3 (38:42):
Mhm.
S2 (38:43):
And you had to do it for financial reasons.
S3 (38:47):
Yeah.
S2 (38:47):
Yeah.
S3 (38:48):
And I, I still I hate it that I have
to that I can't perform. Well I can perform but I'm,
I'm choosing not to because I just can't deal with
it anymore. I can't deal with the hurt. I can't
deal with the rumors. I can't deal I can't fight
the rumors.
S2 (39:06):
Because you no longer have the platform that you once did.
This is the thing, I guess, about being famous. And
then not being famous is you suddenly no longer have
a platform from which you can tell your side of
the story.
S3 (39:20):
Yeah. So these stories become the truth, because I'm not
in a position to be able to defend myself because
I'm not in that world.
S2 (39:29):
Mm. Now you're due to graduate law next year, which
is incredible. Why did you decide to move into law?
S3 (39:38):
Um, well, my father was a barrister. And then, um,
was senior deputy president at Fair Work Australia. What is
now Fair Work Australia? Um, so I've grown up around law.
I watched my father do his law degree part time
over ten years and get his law degree when he
was 40. So my lesson from that was it's never
(40:02):
too late. Yeah. You know, so, you know, knowing that
I have to make a living, I decided, well, damn it,
I'll do a law degree. Yeah.
S2 (40:13):
And you're almost there.
S3 (40:14):
Almost there.
S2 (40:15):
One subject, one subject to go, one subject.
S3 (40:18):
Next year, I have to wait till trimester two, and
then I can do it. And then I'm done.
S2 (40:23):
And then you're done. Well.
S3 (40:25):
Um.
S2 (40:26):
As you know, I spoke to a lot of people
who know you while I was working on this story.
Virtually all of them said the same thing that Tanya
is an incredibly talented person. She's extremely hard working. She's
very generous towards other people, but when it comes to herself,
she can be very critical. Would you agree with those assessments?
S3 (40:53):
Definitely. And I think, um, a lot of that criticism is,
you know, fear of me dropping my standard, you know, like, I,
I want to maintain a standard that I feel proud of.
So in order to do that, I, I guess I'm
very harsh on myself.
S2 (41:13):
And just to finish up, you and I have probably spent,
I think, at least 30, 40 hours in conversation. We've
had two full days at your house, we've had dinner.
We've had hours and hours on the phone. What have
you learned about yourself throughout this whole process.
S3 (41:31):
Oh, I've learned, I think, that I've had a fairly
interesting life.
S2 (41:36):
Um, certainly.
S3 (41:37):
True, even though it's been very up and down and
that I've actually achieved some good things.
S2 (41:45):
Can you recognize that now?
S3 (41:47):
Yeah. It's been quite emotional, though, for me to actually
go on that journey and admit that, um, that's actually
been quite hard.
S2 (41:56):
It's interesting you use the word emotional because only your
lovely husband said to me he thinks you recognise your
achievements at an intellectual level, but accepting them emotionally has
been harder for you.
S3 (42:09):
Um.
S2 (42:10):
So the fact you're feeling that at an emotional level
is progress.
S3 (42:15):
Well, yes. And I've got you to thank for that. Michael,
you saw a story here that no one else saw.
And I think I'll I'll be forever grateful for that
because it's given me a chance to come to terms
with things and just think about things that are not
really thought about or verbalize things that I'd never really
(42:40):
thought that I could verbalize.
S2 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah.
S3 (42:43):
I just hope I don't sound like a wanker.
S2 (42:47):
Trust me, I've met plenty of wankers in my time
covering the entertainment industry over 20 years. You're not one
of them.
S3 (42:54):
Thank you very much. And good night.
S2 (42:57):
What a lovely note to end on. You're not a wanker.
Thank you. But genuinely, Tanya, it has been an absolute
pleasure talking to you. Really getting to know you. Um,
thank you again.
S3 (43:11):
Well, thank you from this end, too, because it really
has been a great moment for me. Thank you.
S1 (43:19):
That was comedian Tanya Lacey in conversation with The age
culture writer Michael Lallo on the final episode of Good
Weekend Talks for 2025. A note of housekeeping. We're taking
a little break for a few weeks over the summer
while we gear up for season seven of the podcast.
But in our absence, we'll be dropping four of our
most popular episodes from 2025 into the Feed. Chats with
(43:42):
a scientist and a swinger, an author and a musician.
Season seven starts on January 17th with none other than
Australian tennis champion Alex de Minaur. Thanks for listening and
see you in 2026. Good Weekend Talks is brought to
you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud
newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe
(44:06):
Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by
Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Our executive
producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio
and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:36):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
Tanya Lacey. The comedy pioneer became one of the biggest
stars on Australian television in the 1990s. But at the
height of her fame, Lacey seemingly vanished without explanation. In
this revealing interview, she opens up about the reasons for
her sudden disappearance, including her controversial sacking by the ABC,
(00:59):
her addictions to heroin and alcohol, her mental health challenges,
the damaging rumors spread by her peers, and a Hollywood
dream that turned into a nightmare. Reflecting on what it
was like being a young woman in a male dominated industry,
Lacey talks about all this and more in a feature
story in the magazine this weekend. Disappearing act and hosting
(01:21):
this conversation is the journalist behind that profile piece, The
Age's senior culture writer Michael Lallo. Listeners should be advised
that this episode deals with suicide and depression. If you
are seeking help, please contact lifeline on 13 1114.
S2 (01:40):
Thanks. Conrad and Tanya, welcome.
S3 (01:42):
Hi there.
S2 (01:43):
Now let's start with the unexpectedly eventful phone call that
you and I had in early November. What happened?
S3 (01:53):
Well, I was talking to you on the phone as
I was, um, just getting my things ready for work,
and I was walking down the front stairs. It was
a very rainy day and I slipped, fell and broke
my back.
S2 (02:08):
Literally broke your back.
S3 (02:09):
Broke my back. Michael.
S2 (02:13):
Are you okay?
S3 (02:15):
I'm still in pain. Like, and I, I have I
can only stand for so long. I can only sit
for so long. I can only you know, it's not
like I was before this accident. So it's just a
question of waiting for the bones to heal. And as
we all know well, who is good at patience, you know.
S2 (02:33):
Yes. Now, a lot of our listeners will remember you
from TV shows like The Factory and Countdown Revolution, which
aired on ABC in the late 80s early 90s. What
role did Molly Meldrum play in giving you your very
first appearance on television?
S3 (02:53):
Well, I was a countdown dancer, and one day I
was mucking around in the studio before we were doing
the taping and he came through and I was actually
impersonating him, and he came through and said, I'm going
to get you to open the show. And apparently he
went into the green room and was like, got this girl.
She's going to open the show. So I did that.
And then a couple of weeks later, I got a
(03:13):
call from Grant rule saying, we'd like you to audition
for this new show that we're doing.
S2 (03:17):
And Grant rule was the executive producer of countdown.
S3 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, I don't even know
how they got my number. Seriously. And I turned up,
and I thought that all the dancers had been called
and all the dancers. And I turned up thinking it
was going to be a dance audition.
S2 (03:34):
You were part of a crew?
S3 (03:35):
Yeah. And no, it was just me talking to her.
S2 (03:38):
And it was just you now. Countdown. Of course, a
lot of people might know this, but you actually played
a part in helping Kylie Minogue launch her singing career.
Tell us about that.
S3 (03:50):
Well, you know, everything Kylie is today is because of me. No,
not at all. Not even close. Um, well, um, I
was on countdown when I was approached by Amanda Pelman,
who had signed Kylie, and she asked me if I'd
be interested in choreographing a film clip for Kylie, and
(04:12):
I said yes. And so we did, uh, locomotion.
S2 (04:17):
Her very first music video.
S3 (04:19):
Yeah. And, you know, I did a couple of other
clips too. But yeah, that was the big one. That
was the first one, and it was amazing. She was
an incredible, quietly confident person, very keen in doing a
great job. And there was no drama, no nothing. It
was just great.
S2 (04:40):
Yeah. You've never said this publicly before, but as a choreographer,
you feel that you let Kylie down in terms of
your work on locomotion. Why do you feel that way?
S3 (04:51):
I think because there were a lot of factors coming
into play. There was like, um, things like we had
to wear these, this wardrobe, and we were all club dancers,
but I didn't feel like in the wardrobe that we
were wearing that I could sort of do the moves
that I really wanted to put in the clip.
S2 (05:10):
Those sexy club moves that were really popular in the
late 80s.
S3 (05:14):
You needed the bike shorts. You needed the crop top.
La la la la la. And you know, also, Kylie
was very I'm not going to say she was very
innocent at that point. She hadn't been exposed to a lot.
And so I was kind of tenderly kind of trying to,
you know, I didn't want to do anything that was
(05:34):
going to upset her. And I think I just felt
like it fell short, you know. But then she went
on to England and she was exposed to a lot
more life, you know, different fashion, different clubs, different music,
different everything. And I watched her grow as a person.
And as that happened, her performance evolved? Yes. And I
(05:58):
think just, you know, we were just very early on
in her career and, um, none of that had been educated,
if you like. And I really didn't feel like I
could push it as far as I wanted to push it.
S2 (06:10):
Yeah. When you met Kylie through locomotion, you hit it
off straight away. Occasionally, she'd drop by and visit you
in your little bedsit, flooding. Q what would you and
Kylie Minogue talk about?
S3 (06:22):
Um, I can't really remember, but I do remember, she
told me, because no one knew that she was dating Jason.
And I do remember she talked to me about that.
S2 (06:31):
And this was a huge deal. I mean, Kylie and
Jason Donovan.
S3 (06:35):
Um, so no one knew about that, but she did
talk to me about that. Yeah, I really liked her.
I wished that we'd remained friends, you know, remained in touch,
but it just wasn't to be.
S2 (06:46):
Well, she went to the UK.
S3 (06:47):
Yeah. And I had my own, you know, path to follow. And. Yeah,
I'd really like to see her these days. I'd really
like to talk to her and Yes. You know.
S2 (06:57):
Yeah, yeah. Now, for someone who was so well known
as a comedian and TV presenter, you never actually aspired
to be either of those things when you were growing up.
What did you want to be?
S3 (07:11):
I wanted to be a dancer. There was just no
two ways about it. That was my lifelong goal. And
I just loved it. There was. I could never do
too much ballet.
S2 (07:22):
And this was from basically the time you could stand.
You were already. I mean.
S3 (07:27):
We moved around a lot. So, you know, I did
ballet in Toowoomba for like three months, and then we
were off to Singapore, and then I did ballet in
Singapore for a little bit, and then we came back
to Melbourne. But you know, my parents weren't were not
as committed as I was. I was like, really? You know, like, mum, dad,
you need to lift your game.
S2 (07:45):
Um, you were a tiger child, not a tiger mum.
S3 (07:48):
Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, mum, I just don't feel
like taking you. And I'd just be like, come on,
we need to lift our game. I want to go. So, yeah,
I guess when I started in Glen Waverley when I
was about 11, that was when I was like, just
so in love with it. This is what I wanted
to do.
S2 (08:07):
Yeah. You were so good at ballet that at the
age of 12, you auditioned for the Victorian College of
the Arts and you were accepted. Why on earth did
you turn that offer down?
S3 (08:20):
Well, because, Michael, I thought they'd made a mistake. Um,
I remember when I auditioned, they, um, the lead auditioner.
He pulled me aside and asked me to do some
jumps for him, and then they were sort of pointing
at my legs and my body and oh, so much talent.
Shame about the body and.
S2 (08:39):
Shame about the body.
S3 (08:40):
Yeah, and that's the comment that pursued me through my
dance career. I mean.
S2 (08:46):
As in other people made that comment too.
S3 (08:49):
Yeah, because I had talent, but I didn't have the body.
S2 (08:54):
And in their mind, what was the deficiency?
S3 (08:59):
I have short limbs.
S2 (09:00):
But you were still an extremely talented ballerina.
S3 (09:04):
It didn't matter in those days. Nowadays I look at
dancers and I'm like, wow, I could have made it
today because, hey, she's got a body like an athlete.
S2 (09:13):
But also here's this, here's this young woman, this girl
who is extremely talented and strong physically and mentally. And
yet your strength was seen as a weakness.
S3 (09:25):
Mm. Yeah. I mean, things have changed nowadays. Dancers do
have varied shapes. Yes. And, you know, you can be
quite athletic. You don't have to be a, you know,
a willow. You can be an athletic looking dancer and,
you know, make a career out of it.
S2 (09:43):
Yeah. Back in the 80s, I remember hearing the mums
at my primary school talking about, um, the girls at school,
and they'd say things like, oh, she's such a gorgeous
looking girl. Beautiful face, but oh, look at the size
of her. And these comments were routine. How common was
it for adults to comment on girls bodies when you
(10:05):
were growing up?
S3 (10:06):
It was par for the course. It was like a right,
you know? Now it's incredibly offensive. And you wouldn't do it. Well,
you'd hope you wouldn't. But it was something that people
did talk about. I think the acceptance of different shapes
has been, um, you know, such a progression. But at
the same time, at the moment, I'm just watching everyone
(10:28):
get extremely thin. You know, I'm seeing it in the
jawlines of people. Like, it's just gotten crazy again. And, um,
there was only one shape that you were allowed to be,
and that was thin. And it wasn't just thin, it
was achieved thinness that people wanted. It wasn't just that
you were born thin. You had to have that achieved
(10:50):
thinness and that showed your dedication and that. And this
was in dance and showbiz as well.
S2 (10:58):
Yeah.
S3 (10:59):
So, yeah.
S2 (11:00):
Now, 1984, you'd finished high school. You auditioned again for
the Victorian College of the Arts, and you're accepted. The
middle of your second year, one week before your 21st birthday,
something awful happened. Tell us about that.
S3 (11:16):
Well, a drunk teacher dropped me in class as I
was doing a split leap. He lifted me above his
head and then, of course, couldn't guide me to the ground.
He wasn't holding my body and so dropped me backwards
and I snapped my leg, bottom half from the top
half of the knee joint.
S2 (11:34):
And you had no idea that he was even going
to pick you up to touch you?
S3 (11:38):
No.
S2 (11:38):
As far as you knew, you were doing a split
leap by yourself.
S3 (11:42):
That's right.
S2 (11:43):
And then all of a sudden, there's this man's hands
on your body, and you come crashing to the studio
floor and tear two knee ligaments. How excruciating was the pain?
S3 (11:57):
It was extremely excruciating because if I'd done a clean tear,
it probably wouldn't have been as painful. But I had
one little strand hanging, so it was extremely painful. Um,
I did have surgery and extensive rehab. Um, but it
was never the same.
S2 (12:16):
Um, because, of course, classical ballet is so physically demanding.
That injury effectively ended your dreams of being a professional ballerina.
What did you do next?
S3 (12:28):
Okay, well, when I realized I just couldn't keep up,
which was the problem, because my leg just couldn't didn't
have the strength and it was too loose my knee joint.
I went into commercial dance and I started choreographing fashion parades. Um,
and they were fashion parades with a point of difference,
you know, like they were very theatrical. And I did
(12:50):
parades for Lindy Lane West, Co Pitigliano. You know, and
at that point too, um, prior to Bettinelli, I know
having her own store that her and her sister had
a store with all these Melbourne designers. So they were
the young Melbourne designers. So I choreographed for all of
those people. And we put on these amazing parades at like,
(13:11):
you know, nightclubs across Melbourne. Yeah. And they were always
received really well. And, you know, I was making a
living as a choreographer. It was amazing.
S2 (13:20):
And you thought, this is my new career and I
love it.
S3 (13:23):
Yep. Totally.
S2 (13:26):
And then you got the call from Grant rule?
S3 (13:28):
Yes.
S2 (13:29):
The former producer of countdown. And so 1987, the ABC
axed countdown, and they needed a new music based show.
And that's when Grant came up with A factory, which
aired on Saturday mornings. Now, you were meant to be
a kind of youth reporter for the show. How did
(13:49):
you end up writing, producing, and editing your own comedic sketches?
S3 (13:55):
So essentially, I had this space where I could just
do my own thing, and I had a like minded
producer who saw potential and encouraged me. Yes. And so
and I had my cameraman and my sound guy. And
so together we just stuck together. We did all these
(14:16):
outrageous things. We had so much fun. We were together
every day. And, you know, then I started writing sketches
and characters and. And this producer, let's go for it.
Let's go for it. And so I really carved out
my own space. And then suddenly it was like, well,
who is this girl that's getting the fan mail, you know?
(14:37):
And who is? Why are the press swinging for Tanya?
Who's Tanya? Um.
S2 (14:42):
Because ABC's publicity department had done nothing to promote you
by this point.
S3 (14:46):
I didn't even have a fan card for the show.
And then when I did get one, I would put
it up in the foyer, you know, because they had
the the hosts up there, but they didn't have me.
S2 (14:56):
So yes. So the two male co-hosts were up there
but not, you.
S3 (15:00):
Know.
S2 (15:01):
And on that foyer in ABC's Elsternwick studios, what was
the proportion of male versus female presenters?
S3 (15:09):
I think there was one female presenter and her name
was Mary Delahunty.
S2 (15:13):
Who was reading the news at the time.
S3 (15:15):
Correct.
S2 (15:16):
So when you would stick your photo up, you instantly
doubled the number of female faces on display.
S3 (15:22):
Indeed I did. Well, yes.
S2 (15:28):
And how long would the photo stay up before somebody.
S3 (15:31):
Oh, it'd be gone by the end of the day. So,
you know, every day I'd put it up and every
day someone would pull it down.
S2 (15:41):
Now it was the factory where you came up with
some of your most memorable characters. Um. And this includes Carlos,
the lecherous lover of Annette, the librarian. What were the
inspirations for these characters?
S3 (15:57):
One was an ex-boyfriend for Carlos, and then just Carlos became, um,
I don't know, a voice that I didn't have as
a woman. Um, so it was very convenient. Um, so.
S2 (16:12):
You could speak as a man?
S3 (16:14):
Yeah, I could.
S2 (16:15):
And how is that different to speaking as a woman?
S3 (16:18):
You get away with a lot more, um, and you
can have crazy opinions, and people don't. Are not offended.
S2 (16:27):
Were you allowed to be more risque and boundary pushing
in your.
S3 (16:30):
Totally. One time I said one thing, and management was
down there. Don't ever say that again on air. And
I was like, well, maybe if you watched my stories
before they went to air, you know, like, it's no
good coming to me afterwards and going, this is wrong.
S2 (16:46):
The minute you stick a mustache on and put on
a bad wig. Suddenly you can get away with anything.
S3 (16:51):
I got away with so much saying so much stuff
that was just sexist, you know, to make a point.
I was like, aware that I was able to make
this point now.
S2 (17:01):
Annette, the librarian, one of your most memorable characters, as
I call her, she's a sweetly vulnerable dork. You've said
that she is the character who is the closest to
you in real life. In what ways are you like Annette?
S3 (17:19):
Annette, um, is someone who, despite appearances, is not afraid
to be herself. She, um, has very high expectations of,
you know, like honorable expectations of herself and others. And
she's smart. Yes.
S2 (17:40):
Yeah.
S3 (17:41):
She's smart. And.
S2 (17:43):
Yeah, not only is she smart, though, she seems to
be hesitant About telling the world that she's smart, or
showing the world that she's smart.
S3 (17:51):
Well, yeah, you don't want to do that as a woman. Um,
that's going to get you into trouble. Um, I learned
that the hard way. Um, I think I, I knew
very early on. I mean, you know, how, like, say
you were good at drawing, right? And you looked around
the classroom and you went, oh, my God, I'm better
than the other kids. You kind of know stuff, right?
(18:13):
As a child. Yeah, well, I knew I wasn't good
at drawing, but I did know I was smart. And
because I looked around the room and I did get
things quicker than others, and I did catch on, and
I got good marks. Yes. So I was aware that
I was smart, but I also became very aware very
early on in life. Don't show people that you're smart.
(18:35):
It's not going to help you.
S2 (18:36):
And how did you learn that? What are some examples?
By being.
S3 (18:40):
Humiliated.
S2 (18:41):
Humiliated.
S3 (18:42):
Humiliated. Literally humiliated by teachers or whatever. who just, you know,
like this was a problem to have someone who was
in the classroom who was actually advanced. This was an issue.
S2 (18:56):
So say a teacher asks a question and you answered
it correctly. Could that sometimes provoke a negative response?
S3 (19:04):
Not you. Someone else? Or how about the time the
teacher threw my pencil out the window and said, go
and get it?
S2 (19:10):
Uh, why?
S3 (19:11):
Because she asked. Okay, I understand what. Okay. She asked
everyone to stop because they weren't understanding the concept that
she was explaining. But I only had two to go,
so I was like, I'm just gonna finish this. And
I didn't put my pencil down. So she grabbed my pencil,
threw it out the window and said, go and get it.
S2 (19:28):
And how often did those things happen to the male students?
S3 (19:31):
Never. Not in my not in my presence anyway.
S2 (19:35):
So right from when you were a girl, in many
different ways, in many different realms, you were getting the
message that, uh, smart women shouldn't show that they're too smart.
S3 (19:48):
I, I really did become quite afraid of people knowing
that I was clever. It became quite a fear.
S2 (19:56):
This is such a contrast to the confidence you had
when you were four years old. I mean, this story
to me is so illustrative because, uh, you told your
mum that you were going to visit your brother at
primary school, and your mum happily waved you off because
she thought you were going to play with the boy
next door like you normally did. You actually walked. What
(20:19):
was it, a kilometre.
S3 (20:21):
A couple of kilometres, a.
S2 (20:22):
Couple of kilometres over busy roads to get to to
this primary school. And you were four and you did
that by yourself?
S3 (20:30):
I did. And then by the time I got back home,
the police were there. My mother's crying, showing pictures. This
is what she looks like. Um, yeah, I did do that.
And I remember not being the slightest bit afraid.
S2 (20:45):
Wow.
S3 (20:46):
Just like I'm going to school.
S2 (20:49):
But then, of course, once you're at school and you
started receiving these messages in many different ways, it seemed
like that slowly began chipping away at your confidence that
your view of yourself.
S3 (21:02):
And I think that I think that women who show
talent in, you know, whether it is art or whatever,
art I think is a little bit different because it
doesn't require, you know, a voice like the evidence is
there in whatever they create. Yes. But, you know, like,
(21:23):
I don't know why, but I just felt like, you know,
I had teachers call me a smart ass, like in
year ten.
S2 (21:30):
And were you being as smart as or just smart?
S3 (21:33):
Um, I don't think I was being a smart ass,
but I would stand up for myself if I felt
something that was unjust. And that's not appropriate.
S2 (21:41):
It's already a violation of gender norms.
S3 (21:43):
Yeah. So that was that was a big problem for
some teachers. Yeah. Um, and if they felt that they
were doing something unfair, I could argue quite well with them. Why?
I didn't believe it was fair. And that too was quite, um,
you know, off putting for them, I think.
S2 (22:01):
And the fact that you're a girl, do you think,
added to their, if not humiliation, just annoyance?
S3 (22:08):
Yeah. Well, yeah. And I mean, I even feel stupid
saying that I'm clever. Like, but why shouldn't I say
I'm clever? Like, why? Why should I be afraid to
say that.
S2 (22:18):
Mhm. Now right from the start of your media career,
you were very popular with viewers, but there were certain
groups of people that you were particularly popular with. Who
(22:38):
were those people?
S3 (22:39):
Anyone who was an outsider. I have had people talk
to me to this very day about this. You know, like,
I had one guy in Adelaide who told me that
I saved his life and I was like, how did
I save your life? And he said, I was a
gay boy in a country town in South Australia. You know,
you showed me I could be who I wanted to be.
(23:01):
And I was just so deeply touched by that. You know,
and I hear things like that a lot from people,
women who tell me you showed me I could be
anything I wanted to be. You know, like, I get
a lot of messages still to that people saying that
to me and their messages even now. Yeah.
S2 (23:19):
So people who saw sketches, you know, 35, almost 40
years ago, it had such an impact that they're still
contacting you now. Mhm.
S3 (23:28):
Yeah. And even when my husband and I came to Australia,
he couldn't believe it when we'd walk down the street
and people would come up to me and make comment
like you showed me I could be anything I wanted
to be, or you gave me the confidence to try
this or, you know, he just couldn't believe.
S2 (23:46):
It because your husband, of course, you met in LA
and then you lived in Berlin. So, uh, he didn't
know you as a famous person until you came to Australia.
So that would have been quite an experience for him.
S3 (23:57):
Yeah, he was kind of shocked. Yeah, yeah.
S2 (24:00):
Why do you think your work resonated so strongly with
those outsiders? What was it that those people were connecting with?
S3 (24:10):
Well, there were all of a similar age, and I
guess that age is the age where you can be rebellious.
And I think that spoke to a generation, the rebellion element, the. Well,
I'm not going to listen to that. I'm going to
do this instead. Oh, you're not making sense by saying that.
So I'd like to point out this, and I think
(24:30):
that that was the kind of thing that they latched
on to. Um, you know, this person has a voice
and I want that voice. So, I mean, I was
really fortunate because I feel like I wasn't just a celebrity.
I made a difference in a way. And that to me,
is what I am so proud of. You know, like that.
(24:53):
I actually feel like I, I helped people in some way,
that my humor was really worthwhile.
S2 (25:01):
And for you, that was a lot more important than
just getting your mug on telly.
S3 (25:05):
Oh, yeah. God, yeah, yeah.
S2 (25:07):
Yeah. It was 1989 that the ABC ended the factory
and decided to launch Countdown Revolution, uh, which was created
by Molly Meldrum as a kind of successor program to countdown. Um,
even though he wasn't going to be in front of
the camera himself. Now, this was a big, ambitious show.
(25:28):
It was five nights a week, uh, 6:30 p.m. prime
time on the national broadcaster. It got off to a
bit of a wobbly start, and after a while it
was rejigged. And You and Mark little, who played Joe
Mangel on Neighbours, were appointed as the co-hosts. What was
(25:50):
it that the producers told you they wanted from you
and Mark?
S3 (25:54):
They wanted anarchy.
S2 (25:56):
Anarchy.
S3 (25:57):
Anarchy they. That word was thrown around like confetti. It
was just anarchy. Anarchic. I'm sure they made up anarchy, words,
you know, anarchy, Buddhism. Um. I just was ridiculous how
much it was thrown about. And that's what they wanted.
They wanted our opinions. They wanted, you know, all those things.
(26:18):
But it turns out they didn't. So they wanted anarchy.
Just not that kind of anarchy.
S2 (26:25):
So they're telling you they want a reference. Unpredictability. The
whole thing, the the honest album reviews, the whole the
whole parcel. The reality, though, was very different. What would
happen when you tried to deliver on what they asked
you for.
S3 (26:43):
Well, what started happening is the show started rating. And so,
you know, the show was gaining some power. Yeah. So
then it became stop tape. No, you can't say that. Uh,
we'll do that again. Ah, okay. What was wrong?
S2 (27:02):
As time goes by, you will Mark. Little are becoming
increasingly frustrated because not only could you not give your
honest opinions. Um, you also weren't allowed to let the
musicians perform live, which seemed very strange as well. So
you decided to stage a protest by going on strike
(27:23):
while you were live on television? What do you remember
about that episode?
S3 (27:30):
Well, I think actually that episode was the best episode
of Countdown Revolution that we ever did. It was exactly
what they wanted. You know, they were cutting away quickly.
They were going to this. They were going to that.
It was alive. It was vibrant. We weren't standing there
for like two minutes until the director cut to the clip.
You know, it was just like we were out. They
were gone. Music was playing. I think it was the
(27:52):
closest thing we'd ever done to the show that they
actually wanted.
S2 (27:56):
I mean, I I've seen that episode a number of
times now. Um, what I recall is that it opened
with Mark, uh, scrunching up the run sheet, which is, um,
the list of what's going to happen in the episode.
And then you held up a placard saying TV is
a lie. Um, and then you held up the phone
(28:17):
numbers for the switchboards of every ABC station in the
country and urge viewers to jam the switchboards. Um, and
this all happened within the space of a few minutes. Um,
at what point did the control room cut the live
feed and switch to music videos?
S3 (28:36):
Um, pretty quickly. But then they came. They were running
a clip and they said to us, okay, you've got
two minutes. Say your thing and then you're out. Yep.
But yeah, it was I don't know, it was just
such a mess, the whole thing.
S2 (28:52):
Now it's the early 1990s. You've been very publicly fired
by the ABC. You had to move back in with
your parents and you were on the dole. Mhm. It
was around that time that you tried heroin. Mhm. What
were you really seeking when you took heroin for the
first time. Were you looking for relief and escape to
(29:15):
numb the pain. What were you seeking.
S3 (29:17):
Well pain relief. I mean it's a very painful thing
to go through to actually be someone that, you know,
had so much opportunity and then to nothing. You know,
it is really painful. Um, and, you know, those invites
(29:39):
drive dry up pretty quickly. And those things that people
used to hire you for suddenly see someone else doing it.
And yeah, I was really hurt.
S2 (29:50):
Not just the invitations, though, but, um, people you thought
of as friends.
S3 (29:54):
There was no one around, Michael. There were no friends
that they all disappeared.
S2 (29:59):
Do you think they were worried they would be tainted
by association?
S3 (30:03):
I don't know. I think there was a little bit
of schadenfreude there. A little bit of joy in watching
me fall. Um.
S2 (30:11):
Why? Because you had been so successful at such a
young age.
S3 (30:14):
Yeah, because Australians loved that. You know, I was the first.
I was like, we should have filmed this. It would
have been the first reality show. Someone's fall from grace.
You know, everyone would have tuned in for that. Well, imagine.
That's actually my life. Yeah. And I really felt like, um,
people kind of did enjoy watching me fall.
S2 (30:36):
Over three months. You checked yourself into rehab seven times.
What was different about that seventh time? What made you
finally quit?
S3 (30:45):
I told my parents.
S2 (30:47):
Why?
S3 (30:48):
Because I knew that I would stay. I wouldn't get
away with it anymore.
S2 (30:54):
How hard was it to tell? Your parents.
S3 (30:56):
Are shocking. Oh, it was awful. But I knew if
I didn't, I would just keep using. And so I.
I told them.
S2 (31:05):
And it did the trick. You haven't touched heroin since.
Now you've been clean and sober now for more than
23 years, which is an incredible achievement. Yet you still
feel like people see a woman who fell apart and
never really got her shine back. Why do you think
that is?
S3 (31:25):
Probably because it's the truth. Um.
S2 (31:28):
In what way?
S3 (31:30):
Well, nothing ever really got back to where it was.
You know, I never really Made a lot of money again.
I never really, um, had the success that, you know,
I had initially when I started out. And so for me,
it just became like, oh, well, people must view me
(31:52):
as a loser because I'm clearly not winning. Um, and um, yeah,
I think it, it just I never was given the
chance to get back up there either. You know, I,
I did a very specific thing and to try and
pigeonhole me into some other thing just didn't seem to work.
S2 (32:13):
It's interesting when men conquer their drug addictions, they're treated
as oracles. People seek their advice. Um, why don't they
do that with women?
S3 (32:24):
Because it's seen as tragic, you know? So you're always
viewed as some kind of immoral tragedy.
S2 (32:31):
Mm.
S3 (32:32):
Um. But it's just mental illness.
S2 (32:35):
Mm. Paul Kelly, the musician who became friends with in
the early 90s, told me that you've had a lot
of setbacks in your life, but whenever you get blocked
in one way, you find something else to do. And
in the 90s, for you, that involved one woman shows
and involves short films. You were winning awards. Then there
(32:55):
was commercial television and you worked for seven, nine and
ten across dozens of programmes. Would it be fair to
say that commercial TV was not a good fit for you?
S3 (33:08):
Yeah, I don't think it was. Um, there were always constraints. Um.
S2 (33:13):
What kind of constraints?
S3 (33:15):
Well, I don't know. I just wasn't allowed to be
as freewheeling as I was, you know? And it was.
Advertisers were a big part of the equation. Um, it
is commercial television, you know. But I think also one
of the reasons I didn't really fit was because I
didn't have my team. You know, I didn't have my
(33:37):
my camera guy, my sound guy, my producer. We were
a team. I didn't miraculously have this career because I
did everything. I had this career because there were some
people around me who really believed in me and loved
doing what I did, too.
S2 (33:53):
Mm. People forget this about television because they see the
person on screen and they forget about all, or they
don't see all the work that goes into it behind
the scenes.
S3 (34:04):
Yeah. I mean, James Lipscomb, my cameraman Greg Parish, and
my sound guy, Chris. We were so close. Like, we
miss each other. Like James has unfortunately died. And I mean,
that was just one of the biggest blows in my life. Yeah. Um,
because we were just so tight. You know, we stuck
(34:26):
up for each other. We supported each other. You know,
this wasn't just me doing this. This was three other people.
S2 (34:35):
2008 you were diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Can you
explain a bit about what it is and what kind
of symptoms you experience personally?
S3 (34:47):
First of all, I have to say it was kind
of a relief to be diagnosed because I didn't feel
like I was moving forward with any psychological treatment. I
didn't feel like I was getting better. So it was
nice to know what I was dealing with. And I'm
dealing with a demon, you know, like it's not an
easy illness. Um.
S2 (35:04):
How does it manifest?
S3 (35:05):
It manifests in, um, extreme moods, like, very difficult to
regulate your moods. You feel very deeply. And, um, so
you will feel lost. You will feel abandonment. You will
feel these things so deeply that it becomes difficult to
(35:26):
actually function. Mhm. Um, there's, you know, some body dysphoria.
There's a lot of self-harm, whether that, um, happens via
drug addiction or actual, you know, self-harm.
S2 (35:44):
Yes.
S3 (35:45):
It can vary, um, extreme and impulsive behavior.
S2 (35:50):
Yeah. Do you feel that people ever use your borderline
personality disorder, uh, to dismiss you, to blame you, to
shift attention away from their own bad behavior?
S3 (36:02):
Yeah. Of course. I mean, that's human, isn't it? Unfortunately, it's, um.
I think it's easy to, you know, if I'm in
a situation where I might be, um. Correct. But that
doesn't want to be admitted. It's easy to go. Well,
(36:23):
you know, she's crazy. Yeah. It's very easy to just
dismiss someone because of an illness. Now, the reason, too,
that I went public with that illness is because I
hoped that I could make a difference and say, look,
you know, because a lot of people have a very
fatalistic attitude about this illness. You know, you can't cure
people with this, but you can. Mm. Um, like my
(36:46):
therapist had said to me, I think that you don't
behave like a borderline personality disorder person anymore, but you
certainly feel on the same level that you always have.
And that's true. Um, so, you know, I hoped that
announcing my illness would help people. And there are people
(37:07):
who've contacted me who have been helped by it. But
I didn't expect it to ever be quite the weapon.
It has been.
S2 (37:16):
The weapon? In what way?
S3 (37:17):
Well, it's a well known rumor, you know, she's crazy.
I don't get hired because I'm crazy.
S2 (37:24):
So it just feeds into that crazy lady trope. Yeah. Yeah.
Now I want to go to 2023 when I saw
you perform at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, the show
Everything's Coming Up Roses, it was brilliant. Um, as I've said,
I've seen probably more than 500 comedians in my time.
(37:46):
I know a good show when I see one. The
reviews were excellent, and yet that was the show that
made you decide to quit the industry altogether. Why?
S3 (37:56):
It just became apparent that nothing was going to change.
I could do this great show and I was really
proud of that show, but I wasn't going to get anywhere.
And that really made me sad, and I felt I
just couldn't continue. And I'm sorry.
S2 (38:19):
No.
S3 (38:20):
It still makes me sad because it's what I love.
But there's no I have to make a living.
S2 (38:29):
Yep.
S3 (38:29):
And I didn't.
S2 (38:31):
You lost money on that show. So it was a
it was a heartbreaking decision to have to give up
something that you had poured decades of your life into.
S3 (38:42):
Mhm.
S2 (38:43):
And you had to do it for financial reasons.
S3 (38:47):
Yeah.
S2 (38:47):
Yeah.
S3 (38:48):
And I, I still I hate it that I have
to that I can't perform. Well I can perform but I'm,
I'm choosing not to because I just can't deal with
it anymore. I can't deal with the hurt. I can't
deal with the rumors. I can't deal I can't fight
the rumors.
S2 (39:06):
Because you no longer have the platform that you once did.
This is the thing, I guess, about being famous. And
then not being famous is you suddenly no longer have
a platform from which you can tell your side of
the story.
S3 (39:20):
Yeah. So these stories become the truth, because I'm not
in a position to be able to defend myself because
I'm not in that world.
S2 (39:29):
Mm. Now you're due to graduate law next year, which
is incredible. Why did you decide to move into law?
S3 (39:38):
Um, well, my father was a barrister. And then, um,
was senior deputy president at Fair Work Australia. What is
now Fair Work Australia? Um, so I've grown up around law.
I watched my father do his law degree part time
over ten years and get his law degree when he
was 40. So my lesson from that was it's never
(40:02):
too late. Yeah. You know, so, you know, knowing that
I have to make a living, I decided, well, damn it,
I'll do a law degree. Yeah.
S2 (40:13):
And you're almost there.
S3 (40:14):
Almost there.
S2 (40:15):
One subject, one subject to go, one subject.
S3 (40:18):
Next year, I have to wait till trimester two, and
then I can do it. And then I'm done.
S2 (40:23):
And then you're done. Well.
S3 (40:25):
Um.
S2 (40:26):
As you know, I spoke to a lot of people
who know you while I was working on this story.
Virtually all of them said the same thing that Tanya
is an incredibly talented person. She's extremely hard working. She's
very generous towards other people, but when it comes to herself,
she can be very critical. Would you agree with those assessments?
S3 (40:53):
Definitely. And I think, um, a lot of that criticism is,
you know, fear of me dropping my standard, you know, like, I,
I want to maintain a standard that I feel proud of.
So in order to do that, I, I guess I'm
very harsh on myself.
S2 (41:13):
And just to finish up, you and I have probably spent,
I think, at least 30, 40 hours in conversation. We've
had two full days at your house, we've had dinner.
We've had hours and hours on the phone. What have
you learned about yourself throughout this whole process.
S3 (41:31):
Oh, I've learned, I think, that I've had a fairly
interesting life.
S2 (41:36):
Um, certainly.
S3 (41:37):
True, even though it's been very up and down and
that I've actually achieved some good things.
S2 (41:45):
Can you recognize that now?
S3 (41:47):
Yeah. It's been quite emotional, though, for me to actually
go on that journey and admit that, um, that's actually
been quite hard.
S2 (41:56):
It's interesting you use the word emotional because only your
lovely husband said to me he thinks you recognise your
achievements at an intellectual level, but accepting them emotionally has
been harder for you.
S3 (42:09):
Um.
S2 (42:10):
So the fact you're feeling that at an emotional level
is progress.
S3 (42:15):
Well, yes. And I've got you to thank for that. Michael,
you saw a story here that no one else saw.
And I think I'll I'll be forever grateful for that
because it's given me a chance to come to terms
with things and just think about things that are not
really thought about or verbalize things that I'd never really
(42:40):
thought that I could verbalize.
S2 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah.
S3 (42:43):
I just hope I don't sound like a wanker.
S2 (42:47):
Trust me, I've met plenty of wankers in my time
covering the entertainment industry over 20 years. You're not one
of them.
S3 (42:54):
Thank you very much. And good night.
S2 (42:57):
What a lovely note to end on. You're not a wanker.
Thank you. But genuinely, Tanya, it has been an absolute
pleasure talking to you. Really getting to know you. Um,
thank you again.
S3 (43:11):
Well, thank you from this end, too, because it really
has been a great moment for me. Thank you.
S1 (43:19):
That was comedian Tanya Lacey in conversation with The age
culture writer Michael Lallo on the final episode of Good
Weekend Talks for 2025. A note of housekeeping. We're taking
a little break for a few weeks over the summer
while we gear up for season seven of the podcast.
But in our absence, we'll be dropping four of our
most popular episodes from 2025 into the Feed. Chats with
(43:42):
a scientist and a swinger, an author and a musician.
Season seven starts on January 17th with none other than
Australian tennis champion Alex de Minaur. Thanks for listening and
see you in 2026. Good Weekend Talks is brought to
you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Proud
newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search, subscribe
(44:06):
Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of Good
Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by
Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Cormac Lally. Our executive
producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is head of audio
and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.