October 3, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode we talk to author Brigid Delaney, whose writing about her alarmingly numerous misadventures in life belies a more serious, intellectual side. Those two sides came together in her book exploring the wellness industry, Wellmania (comedian Celeste Barber plays a version of Delaney in the Netflix series of the same name).
She recently took a dive into stoic philosophy, including the 2022 bestseller Reasons Not to Worry, and her upcoming novel – The Seeker and the Sage – is billed as a tale to help us navigate our divided and unstable world.
Hosting this conversation – which also covers Delaney’s recent stint as a speechwriter for federal minister Tanya Plibersek – is Good Weekend senior writer Melissa Fyfe.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:25):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
the author, Brigid Delaney. For many years, Delaney penned a
column in The Guardian which detailed her alarmingly numerous misadventures
in life. From actor Russell Crowe offering a reward for
her misplaced laptop to trying to evict a giant lizard
from her country home. She also wrote a book called well, Mania,
(00:49):
which detailed yet more misadventures, this time in the wellness industry.
You might have seen the Netflix show inspired by the book,
starring Celeste Barber as a version of the trouble prone writer,
but the comedy and slapstick humor of these pursuits belied
a more serious intellectual side. In recent years, Delaney started
to delve into stoic philosophy in a life changing way,
(01:10):
releasing the 2022 bestseller Reasons Not to Worry An accessible
packaging of the ancient Learnings of Stoicism. Her upcoming book,
a novel called The Seeker and the sage, is also
about stoicism and is billed as a tale to help
us navigate our divided and unstable world. She talks about
this and her recent stint as a speechwriter for Federal
(01:33):
Minister Tanya Plibersek, with her friend and good weekend senior
writer Melissa Fyfe.
S2 (01:43):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Brigid.
S3 (01:46):
Thanks for having me here, Mel.
S2 (01:48):
So you and I are friends. So this is a
strange sort of territory for me. I've never interviewed a
friend like this before.
S3 (01:56):
Perhaps this is the start of a new career for you,
where you just get on people you know and shoot
the breeze.
S2 (02:02):
Mel and her.
S3 (02:02):
Mates. Yeah. Mel and her mates.
S2 (02:04):
But I'm not going to let you off the hook.
There's going to be a few hard questions coming at you.
But first, I wanted to ask. You've had such a
sort of wild career. You've been a journo columnist. This book,
The Seeker and the sage, is your fifth book. You've
been a TV writer. I even remember a period when
(02:24):
you worked for the state Revenue Office.
S3 (02:27):
Yep. I was writing copy for the land tax section
of their website.
S2 (02:32):
Was that exciting?
S3 (02:33):
Ah, it was about as exciting as getting a land
tax bill.
S2 (02:37):
Um, and recently you've been a speechwriter. Um, so of
all the things you've done, what's your favourite thing?
S3 (02:44):
I think being a travel writer was definitely my favorite.
So basically you get sent, either you send yourself on
a trip and you write about the amazing things that
happen to you, or the interesting foods that you've had
or what you've seen, Ein or I'll say a company
might be opening a hotel or, um, there's an experience
that they want to get publicity for, so they'll send
(03:06):
you there and you get kind of taken around and
given the five star treatment. And that was such a
great job because you're traveling, you're getting to write about
your experiences and often getting access to people and places
in these destinations that you wouldn't usually get access to,
and then you get paid for it. So that was
(03:27):
a dream. Um, but unfortunately, there's only like a few
people that can do that full time. So, uh. Yeah,
watch out, guys, I'm coming for your job.
S2 (03:39):
Because, yeah, you're between jobs at the moment, aren't you?
S3 (03:41):
Yes, I am, well, I've got a book coming out, so, um,
I'm very excited about, like, spending time promoting that and
talking to people about stoicism and, um, doing more writing.
S2 (03:53):
And I was I was thinking about your career and
how you've got this interesting divide in that, the, you know,
the Guardian column that you did for many years was
all about the crazy situations that you were getting yourself into,
some of which I witnessed first hand, but rarely did
I make it into the column. Unfortunately, I'm a bit
sore about that still. But then there's this really serious
(04:15):
side where you were also, you know, your your speechwriter
and a philosopher. Really. Do you sometimes think about that
strange divide?
S3 (04:25):
I think we can we all contain multitudes. And the
most essential characteristic, I think, in any situation is a
sense of humour. And so for me, humour and trying
to see what's funny in a situation is not actually, um,
you know, incompatible with working in a serious job. In fact,
it makes doing a serious job or thinking about serious
(04:47):
things actually a lot more bearable and a lot more
interesting because you're bringing levity into a situation. Um, I
think if you were serious all the time and just
doing serious work. Life becomes a bit grey. Um, whereas
if you kind of train yourself to see the amusing
side of everything you do and sometimes write about that
amusing side, it makes life definitely more enjoyable.
S2 (05:11):
So perhaps when you decided to go and be a speechwriter.
So you were a speechwriter for first Katy Gallagher when
she was finance and Minister for women, and then Tanya
Plibersek as environment minister? Was that a was that a
barrel of laughs? Why did you why did you decide
to do that? I mean, it was quite a turning
(05:32):
point for you to switch from having the kind of
freedom of your own column to going into the belly
of the beast, the political beast. Why did you do that?
S3 (05:41):
I see working in politics as a staffer, as being
a privilege. Like, I'm, um, I support the Labor Party
and have for a long time, and they're, um, I guess,
their ambitions. I grew up in the sort of Hawke
Keating era and was really inspired by politics back then,
I'd always wanted to work like I did youth Parliament
as a kid. I was quite nerdy that way, never
(06:03):
wanted to be a politician, but always wanted to work
within the environment. And, um, read Don Watson's recollections of
a Bleeding Heart, uh, when I was younger and was
really inspired by that book and inspired by his account
of political life and being an insider in terms of
your in an office, but you're also a writer and
(06:24):
you're observing it. And, um, I just thought that sounded
like the most fascinating job. Labor governments don't get elected
all the time. You know, it's kind of was 11
years since the last Labour government. So if you want
to work as a speechwriter for a Labour government, you
do have to bide your time. And, you know, I
think you you spend time within these offices and then
(06:47):
when you leave, which I've done, they just empower you
to kind of know so much more about how how
policy is made, how it works, what the pressures are
on the individual ministers, which are quite immense, how things
get decided. And then as a speechwriter, it's like, how
do you convey sometimes the really kind of thorny sort
(07:08):
of policy things. How do you convey that to a
general audience? Um, how do you how do you also
help the minister when you're working out a speech? How
do you help them think about an issue in terms
of how they'll talk about it? So it felt like
a it felt like a really incredible space to be
working in and was very happy to have that experience. Um,
(07:28):
but it is it is gruelling and it does take
me away from travel writing.
S2 (07:34):
I was going to say, I mean, you know, sort
of live up to that romantic notion that you kind
of got from the from Don Watson's book.
S3 (07:42):
I mean, I didn't have like, Don Watson obviously had
this incredible access to Keating and was there in the
room for a lot of those big decisions. And it
certainly was. That wasn't the case in my experience. You know,
I was very much removed from, you know, if there's
a big decision made in, say, cabinet, you know, sometimes
(08:03):
you find out about it through reading in the paper or,
you know, a conversation with a colleague. But I think
as someone who's a journalist who's interested in public life,
who's interested in, you know, interested in Australia and the
direction it it's going to take and its history and
what we are as a country. I think spending three
years in a political office is a fantastic. I peek
(08:26):
behind the curtain, see it as a great privilege. So, yeah.
S2 (08:30):
I mean, your new book, The Seeker and the sage,
is about stoicism, and it's your second book on stoic philosophy,
which came from the ancient Greeks initially and then the Romans.
You're obviously deeply into stoicism, and you try to live
your own life as a stoic. As I was reading
the book, I kept thinking, you know, I wonder how
(08:51):
better our political class would be if they were all
Or Stoics. Did you ever dispense any stoic wisdom around
the halls of power in Canberra?
S3 (09:02):
It's funny, like when the book came out kind of
quite soon after I took the job and quite soon after,
there's reasons not to worry. Quite soon after, um, Albanese
government had been elected and my publisher sent a box
of books to the PMO. Um.
S2 (09:19):
Do you know if they read them?
S3 (09:20):
Um, well, they were for the staffers. You know, I
think the people who who, um, bear the burden of
a lot of the stress are the people who are,
you know, whose names you'll never know, who are sort of,
you know, working out the policy or assisting in parliamentary aspects, like,
those are the guys I think that really appreciated having
(09:44):
some sort of book that may or may not have
helped them. Um, you know, I sent definitely sent copies
to a handful of ministers. And, you know, a lot
of them don't have time to read. Uh, so it's.
S2 (09:57):
A bit sad, isn't.
S3 (09:58):
It? Both my ministers that I worked for, um, read,
read reasons not to worry. And that was it was
really nice to sort of reflect with them about whether
or not, um, you know, whether stoicism could help help
them with their challenges. But both Tania and Katie are
naturally sort of stoic women.
S2 (10:16):
Yeah. Do you think.
S3 (10:17):
So? Yeah, absolutely. They've both had big, big, interesting lives, um,
adversity and, um, struggle and determination. But I think they're, um,
the way they've overcome things is very much in keeping
with the stoic philosophy.
S2 (10:34):
For people who maybe are coming to stoicism fresh. Can
you give the listeners a rundown?
S3 (10:40):
Yeah, sure. So look, in very simple terms. You know,
the word stoic comes from the old Greek word stoic,
which was the painted porch where Athenians used to gather, um,
and here, you know, philosophy and talk about philosophy. And
so the people that gathered under the porch in the
marketplace became known as the Stoics. And they're essentially a, um,
(11:04):
a group of philosophers that were engaged in civic life.
So they a lot of them, um, particularly in the
Roman period, were political. So they were like Seneca, for example,
was a political advisor to Nero. That didn't work out
so well for everyone. Um, and Marcus Aurelius, of course,
Roman emperor, who used stoicism very kind of directly while governing.
(11:29):
And it was used to prepare sort of young Romans
to go into public life. So it is very compatible,
I think, with people who are working in politics. But
essentially the basis is you can only control a very
small amount of things in life, and that is your actions,
your reactions, um, your, your own character and how you
(11:49):
treat other people and everything else is outside your control.
So rather than spending time suffering, getting angry because your
Uber Eats is 20 minutes late and you're hungry and, um,
but there's a massive thunderstorm outside, so the driver could
have on his bike might have been hit by lightning
(12:09):
or whatever. Like, you can't necessarily control when that food's
going to be delivered to your front door. So why
suffer trying to change something that you can't change? So
that was kind of in a nutshell, this sense of
of what you can and can't control. And they also
had this concept which I really love called ataraxia, which
(12:29):
is just equilibrium well-being. Um, trying to be chill. You know,
no matter what happens, a fantastic things happen. You get
great news. It's okay to be kind of happy, but
not you don't want to go crazy. And conversely, if
something terrible happens, you don't want to go into the
depths of despair. You kind of want to maintain an
(12:50):
emotional homeostasis, which allows you to move through life without
these huge highs and lows that so many of us
are kind of, you know, felled by.
S2 (13:03):
You've not studied philosophy formally, and yet you've written two
books about stoicism. Your first book was a was a
big success. Have you had much, uh, had much blowback
from academics, people in these, this area who professionally consider
themselves experts that feel that you may not have been
(13:24):
qualified to write the books?
S3 (13:26):
Yeah, sure. I've had quite a bit, um, and including
on live radio, like on the BBC, uh, on Women's Hour,
which was like just horrific. Um, they got a professor
from Oxford, I think, who was a professor of stoicism,
and she was appalled that, you know, people like me
were kicking around writing about this sort of stuff. But,
(13:49):
I mean, what I say to her and to others
is like my books. An entry level. You know, it's
it's it's it's very basic. And people, you know, can
come into it who don't have any grounding in philosophy.
It's simple. And then if they like the philosophy, if
it chimes with them, they then progress and they get
more sophisticated books, like maybe this woman's book or books
(14:11):
written by academics. And so it's good in the whole
ecosystem of, I think, stoicism to have people at the
ground floor like, like I am, and then people much
higher up who are contributing more sophisticated, I guess, more
sophisticated kind of interpretations of stoicism. Um, I think there's
a place for everyone. I also think, like stoicism was
(14:33):
of of the on the streets. Like that was the
great thing about that time in ancient Greece is like
it was very egalitarian, like men and women were not
seen as different in stoicism. So back then for a,
you know, very hierarchical system, women were kind of non
non-persons back then. women, men, slaves and on slaves, black
(14:55):
white stoicism saw everyone is equal as long as they
had rationality. So it was an open it was a
really open forum for people to come and learn. And, um,
we're in a kind of post-religious age where I found
this after the pandemic, where people needed some sort of framework,
(15:17):
like people were struggling without a sense of, of order
or ethics that they'd been taught. And stoicism is a
really good I think it's a it's great if you're
secular or agnostic or whatever. Uh, and it provides a
cradle to the grave sort of way of living that
I think is super. It's got lots of integrity. It's
(15:38):
really ethical. It's it prevents you from suffering more than
you need to suffer. It's simple to understand. So. Yeah.
S2 (15:45):
But how would you I mean, the world is so
chaotic and and crazy at the moment. How would you
apply stoic principles to intractable, intractable problems like Gaza or
climate change? Those sorts of things.
S3 (15:58):
Yeah. So I mean, go back to the control test,
which is, you know, where like it's the kind of
foundations of stoicism which is like, you know, can you
control can I sitting here in the studio in Melbourne,
can I control what's happening in the Middle East? No,
I can't, you know, I'm not Netanyahu. Um, I can
(16:19):
do certain things that might try and persuade others or
influence others to think a certain way. I can definitely, um,
you know, protest, or I can, um, donate money. Like,
there are certain things, but I can't control the outcome
of that war on my own. And if I did
assume I could control it, then I would be suffering
(16:40):
because I'd be feeling like I'm not making a difference.
So stoicism isn't necessarily about solving the big, the big
global problems on your own. It's about working out what
you can do that makes it can make a difference.
And that could be things like forming a, you know,
forming a group that acts with others to, to exert pressure.
(17:03):
But once again, you can't control the outcome. So you
can do all the things to try and exert pressure
on your local MP around climate change or around the
Middle East. But because those things are ultimately outside your control,
you should not presume to have an outcome that you desire.
S2 (17:34):
So the new book is a conversation, really, between a
journalist who reminds me a little bit of bit of you, Bridget.
S3 (17:42):
Oh, no, they're like, this journalist is in a bad way.
That's that is not me. Not in fact, I based
I based the character on email.
S2 (17:53):
Nothing like me, nothing like me. Um, and then then
she goes and talks to this wise, stoic man. Why
did you decide to structure the book like that as
a conversation?
S3 (18:04):
I think because, like, it's it's the original way of
learning stoicism was through dialogue was through, um, you know,
it was letters. So Seneca wrote this, um, had this
great book, which was letters to a friend of his, Lucilius,
a younger friend, where they would try and help each
other therapeutically, applying stoicism to the problems. So these letters
(18:27):
are great. They're everything from I think Lucilius is getting
sued at one point. You know, Seneca's annoyed because he's
living above a gym and there's all this noise and
he can't sleep.
S2 (18:38):
Is that in the Greek period, when or is that
in the Roman period?
S3 (18:41):
It's Roman.
S2 (18:41):
In the Greek period, they were nude in the gym.
S3 (18:43):
They were nude in the gym. But he's hearing these, um,
he's hearing the sound of, um, he calls them cheap massages, so.
S2 (18:50):
Oh my.
S3 (18:50):
God. Flash bangs and barbells being dropped on the floor.
So they are you know, they're writing to each other
and they're talking about their problems, but they're also using
stoicism as a as a remedy through letters. And it's
a great way of learning stoicism. And I think self-help books,
of which I would characterize this book in my last book,
(19:11):
you know, they're meant to help the reader like they are.
They are kind of self-help, but there's only so much
I can write about myself and stoicism, like, I haven't
experienced a lot of the things that the Stoics really
focus on, like I haven't experienced my own death, I
haven't experienced illness. I've I'm very lucky at this point
in time. I haven't experienced a lot of grief, haven't
(19:33):
experienced sickness, um, like serious sickness, have experienced intimate forms
of intimate and forms of poverty, but not serious. So, um,
this format allows me to really delve into these problems
Through character. So it means that I can broaden the
scope out to really cover cradle to grave problems that
(19:56):
a lot of readers will have, um, without being kind
of locked into my own experiences. So the character's use
of character allows me to do that, and the dialogue
allows me to tease out like I have. I have
problems with stoicism, you know, it's not a it's not
a full answer to everything. You know, there's real issues around, um,
(20:17):
social justice, as we've touched on.
S2 (20:19):
Yeah.
S3 (20:20):
And I think desire it doesn't do desire very well.
S2 (20:22):
I can see that the journalist in the, in the
book does struggle with that. The trying to place where
trying to want to be passionate and then being told
by the old man that, you know, you can only
be so passionate.
S3 (20:35):
Yeah. You can't have these, you can't have these big
highs without these big lows. So, you know.
S2 (20:41):
It doesn't he doesn't sort of like the idea of
a crazy crash, for example.
S3 (20:44):
Doesn't like crazy crashes, doesn't like even lust. You know,
they're kind of he's a bit down on lost. He's
a bit down on. On too much comfort. On too
much enjoyment. Because, you know, the Stoics say that could
be taken away at any moment. So get used to discomfort. Yeah.
It's a there's a lot of harshness in stoicism as
(21:07):
there is in life. Um, so I really wanted to
explore that harshness through through characters.
S2 (21:15):
I mean, one of the, the other things I think
you might struggle with, but I certainly did reading the
book was that stoicism is very hard. Asked about trauma,
it's like, it doesn't matter. You know what sort of
trauma you've experienced as a child, what you've been through
as a person, the things that have happened to you
that are not your fault. The stoic attitude is like,
(21:35):
pick up, you know, pull your socks up, socks up
and sort of carry on, really. And I don't know
whether that's aged very well in terms of what we
know about neuroscience and those kinds of things and child development.
S3 (21:47):
And yeah, they didn't know any of that stuff back then. Um,
and so we've got to forgive them a little bit,
just like they didn't know about hormones or the unconscious,
you know, when it comes to desire. They weren't, you know,
they didn't really know about women and like, the women's
cycles and, um, so their approach is a little bit limited.
(22:07):
But the trauma thing, I think, is they say you
can control your character. So you do have agency in
terms of how you respond to something. And they say
with with trauma, you can choose to be limited by
it or expand or just, you know, have a life
that is not curtailed in any way. You don't see
(22:28):
yourself as a victim. So they do debate about that
in the book. And that's something, I guess, for readers
to work out how comfortable they are with those discussions
around trauma. But I think it's not an invalid perspective
to advance. I think it's good to be challenged and
it's also good to give. You know, people that have
(22:51):
been through some rough stuff. Give them some agency and
some credit that people can overcome things if they're badly treated.
They can actually choose a higher road. And they they
can have a good character and they can choose how
they react to something. So it can be empowering for
some people to hear that message.
S2 (23:09):
Do you think stoicism is having a moment in the manosphere?
S3 (23:13):
I'm not in the manosphere, so it's hard to know.
I mean, you go to an airport bookshop and you
look at like the the business books, and there is always,
you know, a number of, of stoic texts, all written
by men. And I think probably for men, Ryan Holiday
comes to mind. And he's, he's I think he's a
fantastic guy. Um, and I buy his books for my dad. Um,
(23:37):
but I don't see why it should be just for men. Like,
I feel like the philosophy's helped me immensely in my
own life. Um, it doesn't seem to be gendered at all,
so it's always been confusing to me as to why
it's been picked up by men. Maybe it's the word
stoic appeals to, like, a sense of toughness. I think
women are tough, and I think, you know, women need
(24:00):
stoicism as much as men do. Women can benefit as
much as men. You know, there has been a big push.
Say there's a kind of feminist self-help, which is like
Brene Brown and Gwyneth Paltrow, and it's all about vulnerability.
And stoicism in some ways, is not about vulnerability. You know,
it's kind of it's not saying vulnerability is bad, but
(24:21):
it's certainly not saying it's a virtue. So there is
a kind of gendered, there is a gendered, uh, divide
between what self-help people want or respond to. But I
would say stoicism for everyone.
S2 (24:37):
I mean, the Stoics are famous for doing some crazy things,
like dressing up in embarrassing outfits to remind themselves, I guess,
to keep their ego in check. What, if any, of
these sorts of things have you picked up from the Stoics?
S3 (24:50):
Well, I was doing embarrassing things before I got into stoicism.
I think I went to a music festival with you,
and because I was cold in the middle of the night,
I ended up putting underpants on my head to just
to keep myself warm.
S2 (25:04):
It was a really good look, by the way.
S3 (25:05):
Yeah, it was a great look. So, um, they their
whole thing is. Well, you know, we're stupid clothing be
ridiculed and see that it doesn't actually affect you. Like,
you don't need to spend huge amounts of money on
fashion to have to be a good person. So it's
I mean, that stands today. Um, I follow trends less
(25:28):
than I used to. Um, because, you know, the Stoics
are like, why? You know, why are you following the herd?
You know, it doesn't actually it's it's meaningless. Like, if
you happen to have odd socks that day, if you've
only got two clean socks, ones, red ones black. Go
for it. Just wear the odd socks. Doesn't matter. Of course,
(25:49):
I did not do that in Parliament House, but I did.
You know, I do care less now because of, you know,
stoic values.
S2 (25:57):
And what about this idea of when you're stressed, going
to your inner citadel? Um, what's your what's your inner citadel?
S3 (26:06):
It's the opposite of an inner child. So an inner
citadel is like a phrase used a lot by Marcus Aurelius.
It's kind of like, um, it's a place that's it's
your inner fortress. So it's a place that can't be breached.
So it might be that you are in a you're
getting a flight somewhere, you're in an airport lounge. And
airport lounges these days have become really crowded and really messy,
(26:29):
really gross. And kids are screaming and there's announcements and
the news is on and your flights are delayed and
you're just super stressed and you're in a stressful environment.
So Marcus would say, find that place in yourself that withdraws.
If you can visualize it, great. But you kind of.
(26:50):
It's almost like meditation. You just go to a place
where none of the outside stuff can touch you, because
you're in, you're in a fortress and you visualize that
and you just feel a little less reactive. So you're
a little less likely to be rude to someone who
works at the airport lounge. You're a little less likely
to have that third glass of wine in the lounge
(27:11):
because you're stressed. You're you've retreated in kind of plain sight,
and I think it's a skill that everyone has the
capacity to build.
S2 (27:21):
So you think your life is a lot better with
since you've become a stoic?
S3 (27:25):
Yeah, absolutely. 100 and 100%, because I used to spend
a lot of time worrying about stuff that I have
no control over. So, for example, I don't know, you
might be looking at something on Instagram and there's a
great party that's been and gone. Everyone's looking like they're
(27:46):
having the most amazing amount of fun. And you weren't
invited to that party. Now think about how much energy
is spent going, oh, why was I invited to that? Oh,
that looks so fun. Oh, I've missed out. I've got
FOMO and oh, my life's terrible. And I thought these
people were my friends and. And so you just get
into this spiral that can actually last, like for a week.
(28:06):
Whereas stoicism says you can't control if you're invited to
a party or not. You can control how you respond
or react. If you if you know you're going to
be upset by seeing something that you're not invited to.
If you get FOMO, you delete Instagram or you, you know,
you'd be very selective about what you follow or you
just train yourself to care less. So it's things. It's
(28:29):
small things like that. I'm yet to confront some of
the bigger things in life that we all face, like, uh,
you know, um, serious illness, grief and death and stoicism
is helping me prepare for those things.
S2 (28:41):
Because you rehearse in your mind, like.
S3 (28:43):
The stoic mind? Yeah.
S2 (28:44):
Like you imagine people dying that you care about. Yeah.
S3 (28:49):
All the time. Um, and, you know, I'm. I'm having
a I'm throwing a massive party for this book launch. Sorry.
For those that aren't invited, um, you've just.
S2 (28:59):
Created huge waves of FOMO.
S3 (29:01):
Um, but I'm throwing I'm throwing a really big party
because it's like I love my friends so much. You know,
I love, like, I love my family. I want to
celebrate every moment I can. You know, we're not going
to be here forever. Like, people drop dead all the time.
And it's important to gather people, to have fun, to
create memories while you can, rather than deferring things. So
(29:24):
the stoic use of time, um, and the, the, um,
focus on celebrations and enjoyment is also something that I really, um, love.
S2 (29:34):
Your third book was, well, mania, which was your adventures
in wellness, and I haven't asked you this, but Celeste
Barber obviously played you in the in the series. What
was that like watching her do that play? Kind of.
You really?
S3 (29:50):
Well, she ended up making the character very much her
own character, but, um, which, like Ben Law and I, uh,
chose her. We were like.
S2 (29:58):
It was a Ben was.
S3 (29:59):
A good weekend contributor and contrib. And so we when
we started developing mania, we were like, who's going to
play the main character? And it's like, it's got to
be Celeste. So I knew her like sort of on Instagram.
So that's how I, I just connected with her on
social via social media. I'd never met her. I'd never
(30:20):
seen her act in anything. Just thought she had a
brilliant openness to her. And I loved the physical, like
the physical comedy. I really love slapstick.
S2 (30:31):
She's fantastic at that.
S3 (30:32):
Yeah, she's so good. And so we kind of it
was locked down, which was great for us because it
meant that all the actors were out of work. So
we were like, Celeste, would you be in our show?
And I sent her the book, and she. She signed
up straight away. And, um, we had such fun creating it, so, um. Yeah,
she was.
S2 (30:52):
So she was different. She was a different person. You
didn't recognize the person on screen?
S3 (30:56):
There was one scene that I thought, oh, yeah, this
was me. Um, she's trying to. She's trying to get
something out of her bag, and there's, like, all these
cables and chargers. I thought, oh, yeah, that's me. But look,
you know, she did coke at the Walkleys. I've never
even been to the walkleys. Like, that's not an experience
I've had. Um, so. Yeah, but look, she she's, um, smart, funny, talented.
(31:20):
And she made it her own.
S2 (31:23):
Um, you've got to. Also, I'd love you to tell
me what your favorite wellness treatment is, because, uh, you've
done some crazy stuff, but what's your, like? Not your craziest,
but your, like, the one that you go to that
you like. I want to do this thing because it
makes me feel really good.
S3 (31:40):
I quite like, uh, I quite like. And I've done
this with you, actually. Hot, cold plunges.
S2 (31:46):
Yeah. They're good.
S3 (31:47):
They're really good. So in in Bali, went to a
had an all day workshop of getting into one degree
ice bath and, and lately I've been going sauna, ice bath, sauna,
ice bath. And it does feel like you are high
when you get out.
S2 (32:02):
It feels amazing.
S3 (32:02):
It's so good. Um, and it's very trendy at the moment.
They're springing up everywhere and. Yeah, so that's my current
favourite wellness treatment.
S2 (32:12):
After you were involved in the making of WrestleMania, what
were your impressions of the television industry?
S3 (32:19):
Um, I think it's a tough industry. And, um.
S2 (32:23):
Because WrestleMania didn't get picked up for a second season,
even though it was fantastic.
S3 (32:27):
Yeah. I mean, that was shocking to me. I was like,
it was like number two in Sweden. Well, Swedish loved it,
but also look everywhere else like it did really, really well. Um, Netflix,
you know, they're a really they're a global behemoth and
it was really hard to like. They're not transparent necessarily
as to why they renew things or don't renew things.
(32:48):
So I never found out why it didn't get renewed.
It did end on a cliffhanger with Lorraine getting hit
by a car, so I often get asked. I was
in Thailand last week and I was at this gym
and one of the trainers were talking about WrestleMania and
he's like, what happened to Lorraine? Like, we never found out.
And um, so yeah, so that was sad. But like,
(33:08):
I think with TV, it is like it's a tough
industry to survive in that industry, particularly as a writer
or a show creator. You've got to have balls of steel. So, uh,
hats off to anyone who you know is in there
and making stuff. I think TV is facing the same
challenges that everything's facing at the moment, which is shrinking
(33:31):
attention spans. And, um, you know, the rise of short
form video and all that sort of stuff. So it's
it's fighting for its life. I'm pretty grateful. While many
got made in the first place.
S2 (33:42):
If you could meet one of your literary heroes, who?
Who would it be?
S3 (33:46):
Oh, that's a good question. What am I, literary? I
loved growing up. I loved J.D. Salinger. Like I just
thought I'd catch from the Rye was my favorite book.
But then you read these biographies, like, later on about
how he liked young girls, and he was, you know,
and I'm like.
S2 (34:02):
Don't meet your heroes.
S3 (34:03):
Do I want to meet him? Um, I met Joan
Didion once in New York at a reading. Her husband
had just died, and, um, I got I, like, was
at the signing table and I got up to the
front and I gushed, and I was like, I've always
wanted to meet him. I love you so much. You're
my you know, I'm your biggest fan. And she just
kind of looked at me with this dead stare. She
(34:25):
was just so cold. And I was devastated, and I
was I was out with a New Yorker later and
I said, oh, she was terrible. And he's like, number one,
never meet your hero. Number two don't have heroes. So
maybe there's, uh, maybe literary figures that I'd like to meet, um,
are none of them. Because they, their best selves exist
in their books.
S2 (34:46):
And what are your what are your the sort of
2 or 3 good books that you've read lately, if any?
Maybe you've just been in the Thai gym eating protein?
S3 (34:57):
Um, no. I've been on a reading binge of late,
so I've been reading a lot about AI. So there's
one called The Empire Empire of AI, which is Karen Howe,
which is like good, very meaty book. I've read the
new Elizabeth Gilbert memoir, which I, you know, I have
mixed feelings about. Not not great. It's kind of okay, um,
(35:19):
pretty wild. I've read a book called rejection, which has
been described as, um, a by a guy called Tony.
I can't remember his last name, but it is America's
first incel novel, which was pretty shocking.
S2 (35:34):
Wow. Okay, so it's from the perspective of the incel.
S3 (35:38):
Yeah, yeah. So that was pretty dark. Um, I'm reading
a lot. Loving, loving all the books that are coming
out at the moment. October's a big month, so looking
forward to getting stuck into the titles that come out
that month.
S2 (35:50):
Well, thanks very much for coming in. Thanks for having
a chat.
S3 (35:54):
Fantastic. Great to chat.
S1 (35:59):
That was author Brigid Delaney in conversation with Good Weekend
senior writer Melissa Fyfe on the latest Good Weekend talks.
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate
and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning
in for more compelling conversations. Good Weekend Talks is brought
to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age
(36:20):
proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong.
Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine
for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from
sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond. Every week,
you can download new episodes in which top journalists from
across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive
(00:25):
stories of the day. In this episode, we talk to
the author, Brigid Delaney. For many years, Delaney penned a
column in The Guardian which detailed her alarmingly numerous misadventures
in life. From actor Russell Crowe offering a reward for
her misplaced laptop to trying to evict a giant lizard
from her country home. She also wrote a book called well, Mania,
(00:49):
which detailed yet more misadventures, this time in the wellness industry.
You might have seen the Netflix show inspired by the book,
starring Celeste Barber as a version of the trouble prone writer,
but the comedy and slapstick humor of these pursuits belied
a more serious intellectual side. In recent years, Delaney started
to delve into stoic philosophy in a life changing way,
(01:10):
releasing the 2022 bestseller Reasons Not to Worry An accessible
packaging of the ancient Learnings of Stoicism. Her upcoming book,
a novel called The Seeker and the sage, is also
about stoicism and is billed as a tale to help
us navigate our divided and unstable world. She talks about
this and her recent stint as a speechwriter for Federal
(01:33):
Minister Tanya Plibersek, with her friend and good weekend senior
writer Melissa Fyfe.
S2 (01:43):
Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Brigid.
S3 (01:46):
Thanks for having me here, Mel.
S2 (01:48):
So you and I are friends. So this is a
strange sort of territory for me. I've never interviewed a
friend like this before.
S3 (01:56):
Perhaps this is the start of a new career for you,
where you just get on people you know and shoot
the breeze.
S2 (02:02):
Mel and her.
S3 (02:02):
Mates. Yeah. Mel and her mates.
S2 (02:04):
But I'm not going to let you off the hook.
There's going to be a few hard questions coming at you.
But first, I wanted to ask. You've had such a
sort of wild career. You've been a journo columnist. This book,
The Seeker and the sage, is your fifth book. You've
been a TV writer. I even remember a period when
(02:24):
you worked for the state Revenue Office.
S3 (02:27):
Yep. I was writing copy for the land tax section
of their website.
S2 (02:32):
Was that exciting?
S3 (02:33):
Ah, it was about as exciting as getting a land
tax bill.
S2 (02:37):
Um, and recently you've been a speechwriter. Um, so of
all the things you've done, what's your favourite thing?
S3 (02:44):
I think being a travel writer was definitely my favorite.
So basically you get sent, either you send yourself on
a trip and you write about the amazing things that
happen to you, or the interesting foods that you've had
or what you've seen, Ein or I'll say a company
might be opening a hotel or, um, there's an experience
that they want to get publicity for, so they'll send
(03:06):
you there and you get kind of taken around and
given the five star treatment. And that was such a
great job because you're traveling, you're getting to write about
your experiences and often getting access to people and places
in these destinations that you wouldn't usually get access to,
and then you get paid for it. So that was
(03:27):
a dream. Um, but unfortunately, there's only like a few
people that can do that full time. So, uh. Yeah,
watch out, guys, I'm coming for your job.
S2 (03:39):
Because, yeah, you're between jobs at the moment, aren't you?
S3 (03:41):
Yes, I am, well, I've got a book coming out, so, um,
I'm very excited about, like, spending time promoting that and
talking to people about stoicism and, um, doing more writing.
S2 (03:53):
And I was I was thinking about your career and
how you've got this interesting divide in that, the, you know,
the Guardian column that you did for many years was
all about the crazy situations that you were getting yourself into,
some of which I witnessed first hand, but rarely did
I make it into the column. Unfortunately, I'm a bit
sore about that still. But then there's this really serious
(04:15):
side where you were also, you know, your your speechwriter
and a philosopher. Really. Do you sometimes think about that
strange divide?
S3 (04:25):
I think we can we all contain multitudes. And the
most essential characteristic, I think, in any situation is a
sense of humour. And so for me, humour and trying
to see what's funny in a situation is not actually, um,
you know, incompatible with working in a serious job. In fact,
it makes doing a serious job or thinking about serious
(04:47):
things actually a lot more bearable and a lot more
interesting because you're bringing levity into a situation. Um, I
think if you were serious all the time and just
doing serious work. Life becomes a bit grey. Um, whereas
if you kind of train yourself to see the amusing
side of everything you do and sometimes write about that
amusing side, it makes life definitely more enjoyable.
S2 (05:11):
So perhaps when you decided to go and be a speechwriter.
So you were a speechwriter for first Katy Gallagher when
she was finance and Minister for women, and then Tanya
Plibersek as environment minister? Was that a was that a
barrel of laughs? Why did you why did you decide
to do that? I mean, it was quite a turning
(05:32):
point for you to switch from having the kind of
freedom of your own column to going into the belly
of the beast, the political beast. Why did you do that?
S3 (05:41):
I see working in politics as a staffer, as being
a privilege. Like, I'm, um, I support the Labor Party
and have for a long time, and they're, um, I guess,
their ambitions. I grew up in the sort of Hawke
Keating era and was really inspired by politics back then,
I'd always wanted to work like I did youth Parliament
as a kid. I was quite nerdy that way, never
(06:03):
wanted to be a politician, but always wanted to work
within the environment. And, um, read Don Watson's recollections of
a Bleeding Heart, uh, when I was younger and was
really inspired by that book and inspired by his account
of political life and being an insider in terms of
your in an office, but you're also a writer and
(06:24):
you're observing it. And, um, I just thought that sounded
like the most fascinating job. Labor governments don't get elected
all the time. You know, it's kind of was 11
years since the last Labour government. So if you want
to work as a speechwriter for a Labour government, you
do have to bide your time. And, you know, I
think you you spend time within these offices and then
(06:47):
when you leave, which I've done, they just empower you
to kind of know so much more about how how
policy is made, how it works, what the pressures are
on the individual ministers, which are quite immense, how things
get decided. And then as a speechwriter, it's like, how
do you convey sometimes the really kind of thorny sort
(07:08):
of policy things. How do you convey that to a
general audience? Um, how do you how do you also
help the minister when you're working out a speech? How
do you help them think about an issue in terms
of how they'll talk about it? So it felt like
a it felt like a really incredible space to be
working in and was very happy to have that experience. Um,
(07:28):
but it is it is gruelling and it does take
me away from travel writing.
S2 (07:34):
I was going to say, I mean, you know, sort
of live up to that romantic notion that you kind
of got from the from Don Watson's book.
S3 (07:42):
I mean, I didn't have like, Don Watson obviously had
this incredible access to Keating and was there in the
room for a lot of those big decisions. And it
certainly was. That wasn't the case in my experience. You know,
I was very much removed from, you know, if there's
a big decision made in, say, cabinet, you know, sometimes
(08:03):
you find out about it through reading in the paper or,
you know, a conversation with a colleague. But I think
as someone who's a journalist who's interested in public life,
who's interested in, you know, interested in Australia and the
direction it it's going to take and its history and
what we are as a country. I think spending three
years in a political office is a fantastic. I peek
(08:26):
behind the curtain, see it as a great privilege. So, yeah.
S2 (08:30):
I mean, your new book, The Seeker and the sage,
is about stoicism, and it's your second book on stoic philosophy,
which came from the ancient Greeks initially and then the Romans.
You're obviously deeply into stoicism, and you try to live
your own life as a stoic. As I was reading
the book, I kept thinking, you know, I wonder how
(08:51):
better our political class would be if they were all
Or Stoics. Did you ever dispense any stoic wisdom around
the halls of power in Canberra?
S3 (09:02):
It's funny, like when the book came out kind of
quite soon after I took the job and quite soon after,
there's reasons not to worry. Quite soon after, um, Albanese
government had been elected and my publisher sent a box
of books to the PMO. Um.
S2 (09:19):
Do you know if they read them?
S3 (09:20):
Um, well, they were for the staffers. You know, I
think the people who who, um, bear the burden of
a lot of the stress are the people who are,
you know, whose names you'll never know, who are sort of,
you know, working out the policy or assisting in parliamentary aspects, like,
those are the guys I think that really appreciated having
(09:44):
some sort of book that may or may not have
helped them. Um, you know, I sent definitely sent copies
to a handful of ministers. And, you know, a lot
of them don't have time to read. Uh, so it's.
S2 (09:57):
A bit sad, isn't.
S3 (09:58):
It? Both my ministers that I worked for, um, read,
read reasons not to worry. And that was it was
really nice to sort of reflect with them about whether
or not, um, you know, whether stoicism could help help
them with their challenges. But both Tania and Katie are
naturally sort of stoic women.
S2 (10:16):
Yeah. Do you think.
S3 (10:17):
So? Yeah, absolutely. They've both had big, big, interesting lives, um,
adversity and, um, struggle and determination. But I think they're, um,
the way they've overcome things is very much in keeping
with the stoic philosophy.
S2 (10:34):
For people who maybe are coming to stoicism fresh. Can
you give the listeners a rundown?
S3 (10:40):
Yeah, sure. So look, in very simple terms. You know,
the word stoic comes from the old Greek word stoic,
which was the painted porch where Athenians used to gather, um,
and here, you know, philosophy and talk about philosophy. And
so the people that gathered under the porch in the
marketplace became known as the Stoics. And they're essentially a, um,
(11:04):
a group of philosophers that were engaged in civic life.
So they a lot of them, um, particularly in the
Roman period, were political. So they were like Seneca, for example,
was a political advisor to Nero. That didn't work out
so well for everyone. Um, and Marcus Aurelius, of course,
Roman emperor, who used stoicism very kind of directly while governing.
(11:29):
And it was used to prepare sort of young Romans
to go into public life. So it is very compatible,
I think, with people who are working in politics. But
essentially the basis is you can only control a very
small amount of things in life, and that is your actions,
your reactions, um, your, your own character and how you
(11:49):
treat other people and everything else is outside your control.
So rather than spending time suffering, getting angry because your
Uber Eats is 20 minutes late and you're hungry and, um,
but there's a massive thunderstorm outside, so the driver could
have on his bike might have been hit by lightning
(12:09):
or whatever. Like, you can't necessarily control when that food's
going to be delivered to your front door. So why
suffer trying to change something that you can't change? So
that was kind of in a nutshell, this sense of
of what you can and can't control. And they also
had this concept which I really love called ataraxia, which
(12:29):
is just equilibrium well-being. Um, trying to be chill. You know,
no matter what happens, a fantastic things happen. You get
great news. It's okay to be kind of happy, but
not you don't want to go crazy. And conversely, if
something terrible happens, you don't want to go into the
depths of despair. You kind of want to maintain an
(12:50):
emotional homeostasis, which allows you to move through life without
these huge highs and lows that so many of us
are kind of, you know, felled by.
S2 (13:03):
You've not studied philosophy formally, and yet you've written two
books about stoicism. Your first book was a was a
big success. Have you had much, uh, had much blowback
from academics, people in these, this area who professionally consider
themselves experts that feel that you may not have been
(13:24):
qualified to write the books?
S3 (13:26):
Yeah, sure. I've had quite a bit, um, and including
on live radio, like on the BBC, uh, on Women's Hour,
which was like just horrific. Um, they got a professor
from Oxford, I think, who was a professor of stoicism,
and she was appalled that, you know, people like me
were kicking around writing about this sort of stuff. But,
(13:49):
I mean, what I say to her and to others
is like my books. An entry level. You know, it's
it's it's it's very basic. And people, you know, can
come into it who don't have any grounding in philosophy.
It's simple. And then if they like the philosophy, if
it chimes with them, they then progress and they get
more sophisticated books, like maybe this woman's book or books
(14:11):
written by academics. And so it's good in the whole
ecosystem of, I think, stoicism to have people at the
ground floor like, like I am, and then people much
higher up who are contributing more sophisticated, I guess, more
sophisticated kind of interpretations of stoicism. Um, I think there's
a place for everyone. I also think, like stoicism was
(14:33):
of of the on the streets. Like that was the
great thing about that time in ancient Greece is like
it was very egalitarian, like men and women were not
seen as different in stoicism. So back then for a,
you know, very hierarchical system, women were kind of non
non-persons back then. women, men, slaves and on slaves, black
(14:55):
white stoicism saw everyone is equal as long as they
had rationality. So it was an open it was a
really open forum for people to come and learn. And, um,
we're in a kind of post-religious age where I found
this after the pandemic, where people needed some sort of framework,
(15:17):
like people were struggling without a sense of, of order
or ethics that they'd been taught. And stoicism is a
really good I think it's a it's great if you're
secular or agnostic or whatever. Uh, and it provides a
cradle to the grave sort of way of living that
I think is super. It's got lots of integrity. It's
(15:38):
really ethical. It's it prevents you from suffering more than
you need to suffer. It's simple to understand. So. Yeah.
S2 (15:45):
But how would you I mean, the world is so
chaotic and and crazy at the moment. How would you
apply stoic principles to intractable, intractable problems like Gaza or
climate change? Those sorts of things.
S3 (15:58):
Yeah. So I mean, go back to the control test,
which is, you know, where like it's the kind of
foundations of stoicism which is like, you know, can you
control can I sitting here in the studio in Melbourne,
can I control what's happening in the Middle East? No,
I can't, you know, I'm not Netanyahu. Um, I can
(16:19):
do certain things that might try and persuade others or
influence others to think a certain way. I can definitely, um,
you know, protest, or I can, um, donate money. Like,
there are certain things, but I can't control the outcome
of that war on my own. And if I did
assume I could control it, then I would be suffering
(16:40):
because I'd be feeling like I'm not making a difference.
So stoicism isn't necessarily about solving the big, the big
global problems on your own. It's about working out what
you can do that makes it can make a difference.
And that could be things like forming a, you know,
forming a group that acts with others to, to exert pressure.
(17:03):
But once again, you can't control the outcome. So you
can do all the things to try and exert pressure
on your local MP around climate change or around the
Middle East. But because those things are ultimately outside your control,
you should not presume to have an outcome that you desire.
S2 (17:34):
So the new book is a conversation, really, between a
journalist who reminds me a little bit of bit of you, Bridget.
S3 (17:42):
Oh, no, they're like, this journalist is in a bad way.
That's that is not me. Not in fact, I based
I based the character on email.
S2 (17:53):
Nothing like me, nothing like me. Um, and then then
she goes and talks to this wise, stoic man. Why
did you decide to structure the book like that as
a conversation?
S3 (18:04):
I think because, like, it's it's the original way of
learning stoicism was through dialogue was through, um, you know,
it was letters. So Seneca wrote this, um, had this
great book, which was letters to a friend of his, Lucilius,
a younger friend, where they would try and help each
other therapeutically, applying stoicism to the problems. So these letters
(18:27):
are great. They're everything from I think Lucilius is getting
sued at one point. You know, Seneca's annoyed because he's
living above a gym and there's all this noise and
he can't sleep.
S2 (18:38):
Is that in the Greek period, when or is that
in the Roman period?
S3 (18:41):
It's Roman.
S2 (18:41):
In the Greek period, they were nude in the gym.
S3 (18:43):
They were nude in the gym. But he's hearing these, um,
he's hearing the sound of, um, he calls them cheap massages, so.
S2 (18:50):
Oh my.
S3 (18:50):
God. Flash bangs and barbells being dropped on the floor.
So they are you know, they're writing to each other
and they're talking about their problems, but they're also using
stoicism as a as a remedy through letters. And it's
a great way of learning stoicism. And I think self-help books,
of which I would characterize this book in my last book,
(19:11):
you know, they're meant to help the reader like they are.
They are kind of self-help, but there's only so much
I can write about myself and stoicism, like, I haven't
experienced a lot of the things that the Stoics really
focus on, like I haven't experienced my own death, I
haven't experienced illness. I've I'm very lucky at this point
in time. I haven't experienced a lot of grief, haven't
(19:33):
experienced sickness, um, like serious sickness, have experienced intimate forms
of intimate and forms of poverty, but not serious. So, um,
this format allows me to really delve into these problems
Through character. So it means that I can broaden the
scope out to really cover cradle to grave problems that
(19:56):
a lot of readers will have, um, without being kind
of locked into my own experiences. So the character's use
of character allows me to do that, and the dialogue
allows me to tease out like I have. I have
problems with stoicism, you know, it's not a it's not
a full answer to everything. You know, there's real issues around, um,
(20:17):
social justice, as we've touched on.
S2 (20:19):
Yeah.
S3 (20:20):
And I think desire it doesn't do desire very well.
S2 (20:22):
I can see that the journalist in the, in the
book does struggle with that. The trying to place where
trying to want to be passionate and then being told
by the old man that, you know, you can only
be so passionate.
S3 (20:35):
Yeah. You can't have these, you can't have these big
highs without these big lows. So, you know.
S2 (20:41):
It doesn't he doesn't sort of like the idea of
a crazy crash, for example.
S3 (20:44):
Doesn't like crazy crashes, doesn't like even lust. You know,
they're kind of he's a bit down on lost. He's
a bit down on. On too much comfort. On too
much enjoyment. Because, you know, the Stoics say that could
be taken away at any moment. So get used to discomfort. Yeah.
It's a there's a lot of harshness in stoicism as
(21:07):
there is in life. Um, so I really wanted to
explore that harshness through through characters.
S2 (21:15):
I mean, one of the, the other things I think
you might struggle with, but I certainly did reading the
book was that stoicism is very hard. Asked about trauma,
it's like, it doesn't matter. You know what sort of
trauma you've experienced as a child, what you've been through
as a person, the things that have happened to you
that are not your fault. The stoic attitude is like,
(21:35):
pick up, you know, pull your socks up, socks up
and sort of carry on, really. And I don't know
whether that's aged very well in terms of what we
know about neuroscience and those kinds of things and child development.
S3 (21:47):
And yeah, they didn't know any of that stuff back then. Um,
and so we've got to forgive them a little bit,
just like they didn't know about hormones or the unconscious,
you know, when it comes to desire. They weren't, you know,
they didn't really know about women and like, the women's
cycles and, um, so their approach is a little bit limited.
(22:07):
But the trauma thing, I think, is they say you
can control your character. So you do have agency in
terms of how you respond to something. And they say
with with trauma, you can choose to be limited by
it or expand or just, you know, have a life
that is not curtailed in any way. You don't see
(22:28):
yourself as a victim. So they do debate about that
in the book. And that's something, I guess, for readers
to work out how comfortable they are with those discussions
around trauma. But I think it's not an invalid perspective
to advance. I think it's good to be challenged and
it's also good to give. You know, people that have
(22:51):
been through some rough stuff. Give them some agency and
some credit that people can overcome things if they're badly treated.
They can actually choose a higher road. And they they
can have a good character and they can choose how
they react to something. So it can be empowering for
some people to hear that message.
S2 (23:09):
Do you think stoicism is having a moment in the manosphere?
S3 (23:13):
I'm not in the manosphere, so it's hard to know.
I mean, you go to an airport bookshop and you
look at like the the business books, and there is always,
you know, a number of, of stoic texts, all written
by men. And I think probably for men, Ryan Holiday
comes to mind. And he's, he's I think he's a
fantastic guy. Um, and I buy his books for my dad. Um,
(23:37):
but I don't see why it should be just for men. Like,
I feel like the philosophy's helped me immensely in my
own life. Um, it doesn't seem to be gendered at all,
so it's always been confusing to me as to why
it's been picked up by men. Maybe it's the word
stoic appeals to, like, a sense of toughness. I think
women are tough, and I think, you know, women need
(24:00):
stoicism as much as men do. Women can benefit as
much as men. You know, there has been a big push.
Say there's a kind of feminist self-help, which is like
Brene Brown and Gwyneth Paltrow, and it's all about vulnerability.
And stoicism in some ways, is not about vulnerability. You know,
it's kind of it's not saying vulnerability is bad, but
(24:21):
it's certainly not saying it's a virtue. So there is
a kind of gendered, there is a gendered, uh, divide
between what self-help people want or respond to. But I
would say stoicism for everyone.
S2 (24:37):
I mean, the Stoics are famous for doing some crazy things,
like dressing up in embarrassing outfits to remind themselves, I guess,
to keep their ego in check. What, if any, of
these sorts of things have you picked up from the Stoics?
S3 (24:50):
Well, I was doing embarrassing things before I got into stoicism.
I think I went to a music festival with you,
and because I was cold in the middle of the night,
I ended up putting underpants on my head to just
to keep myself warm.
S2 (25:04):
It was a really good look, by the way.
S3 (25:05):
Yeah, it was a great look. So, um, they their
whole thing is. Well, you know, we're stupid clothing be
ridiculed and see that it doesn't actually affect you. Like,
you don't need to spend huge amounts of money on
fashion to have to be a good person. So it's
I mean, that stands today. Um, I follow trends less
(25:28):
than I used to. Um, because, you know, the Stoics
are like, why? You know, why are you following the herd?
You know, it doesn't actually it's it's meaningless. Like, if
you happen to have odd socks that day, if you've
only got two clean socks, ones, red ones black. Go
for it. Just wear the odd socks. Doesn't matter. Of course,
(25:49):
I did not do that in Parliament House, but I did.
You know, I do care less now because of, you know,
stoic values.
S2 (25:57):
And what about this idea of when you're stressed, going
to your inner citadel? Um, what's your what's your inner citadel?
S3 (26:06):
It's the opposite of an inner child. So an inner
citadel is like a phrase used a lot by Marcus Aurelius.
It's kind of like, um, it's a place that's it's
your inner fortress. So it's a place that can't be breached.
So it might be that you are in a you're
getting a flight somewhere, you're in an airport lounge. And
airport lounges these days have become really crowded and really messy,
(26:29):
really gross. And kids are screaming and there's announcements and
the news is on and your flights are delayed and
you're just super stressed and you're in a stressful environment.
So Marcus would say, find that place in yourself that withdraws.
If you can visualize it, great. But you kind of.
(26:50):
It's almost like meditation. You just go to a place
where none of the outside stuff can touch you, because
you're in, you're in a fortress and you visualize that
and you just feel a little less reactive. So you're
a little less likely to be rude to someone who
works at the airport lounge. You're a little less likely
to have that third glass of wine in the lounge
(27:11):
because you're stressed. You're you've retreated in kind of plain sight,
and I think it's a skill that everyone has the
capacity to build.
S2 (27:21):
So you think your life is a lot better with
since you've become a stoic?
S3 (27:25):
Yeah, absolutely. 100 and 100%, because I used to spend
a lot of time worrying about stuff that I have
no control over. So, for example, I don't know, you
might be looking at something on Instagram and there's a
great party that's been and gone. Everyone's looking like they're
(27:46):
having the most amazing amount of fun. And you weren't
invited to that party. Now think about how much energy
is spent going, oh, why was I invited to that? Oh,
that looks so fun. Oh, I've missed out. I've got
FOMO and oh, my life's terrible. And I thought these
people were my friends and. And so you just get
into this spiral that can actually last, like for a week.
(28:06):
Whereas stoicism says you can't control if you're invited to
a party or not. You can control how you respond
or react. If you if you know you're going to
be upset by seeing something that you're not invited to.
If you get FOMO, you delete Instagram or you, you know,
you'd be very selective about what you follow or you
just train yourself to care less. So it's things. It's
(28:29):
small things like that. I'm yet to confront some of
the bigger things in life that we all face, like, uh,
you know, um, serious illness, grief and death and stoicism
is helping me prepare for those things.
S2 (28:41):
Because you rehearse in your mind, like.
S3 (28:43):
The stoic mind? Yeah.
S2 (28:44):
Like you imagine people dying that you care about. Yeah.
S3 (28:49):
All the time. Um, and, you know, I'm. I'm having
a I'm throwing a massive party for this book launch. Sorry.
For those that aren't invited, um, you've just.
S2 (28:59):
Created huge waves of FOMO.
S3 (29:01):
Um, but I'm throwing I'm throwing a really big party
because it's like I love my friends so much. You know,
I love, like, I love my family. I want to
celebrate every moment I can. You know, we're not going
to be here forever. Like, people drop dead all the time.
And it's important to gather people, to have fun, to
create memories while you can, rather than deferring things. So
(29:24):
the stoic use of time, um, and the, the, um,
focus on celebrations and enjoyment is also something that I really, um, love.
S2 (29:34):
Your third book was, well, mania, which was your adventures
in wellness, and I haven't asked you this, but Celeste
Barber obviously played you in the in the series. What
was that like watching her do that play? Kind of.
You really?
S3 (29:50):
Well, she ended up making the character very much her
own character, but, um, which, like Ben Law and I, uh,
chose her. We were like.
S2 (29:58):
It was a Ben was.
S3 (29:59):
A good weekend contributor and contrib. And so we when
we started developing mania, we were like, who's going to
play the main character? And it's like, it's got to
be Celeste. So I knew her like sort of on Instagram.
So that's how I, I just connected with her on
social via social media. I'd never met her. I'd never
(30:20):
seen her act in anything. Just thought she had a
brilliant openness to her. And I loved the physical, like
the physical comedy. I really love slapstick.
S2 (30:31):
She's fantastic at that.
S3 (30:32):
Yeah, she's so good. And so we kind of it
was locked down, which was great for us because it
meant that all the actors were out of work. So
we were like, Celeste, would you be in our show?
And I sent her the book, and she. She signed
up straight away. And, um, we had such fun creating it, so, um. Yeah,
she was.
S2 (30:52):
So she was different. She was a different person. You
didn't recognize the person on screen?
S3 (30:56):
There was one scene that I thought, oh, yeah, this
was me. Um, she's trying to. She's trying to get
something out of her bag, and there's, like, all these
cables and chargers. I thought, oh, yeah, that's me. But look,
you know, she did coke at the Walkleys. I've never
even been to the walkleys. Like, that's not an experience
I've had. Um, so. Yeah, but look, she she's, um, smart, funny, talented.
(31:20):
And she made it her own.
S2 (31:23):
Um, you've got to. Also, I'd love you to tell
me what your favorite wellness treatment is, because, uh, you've
done some crazy stuff, but what's your, like? Not your craziest,
but your, like, the one that you go to that
you like. I want to do this thing because it
makes me feel really good.
S3 (31:40):
I quite like, uh, I quite like. And I've done
this with you, actually. Hot, cold plunges.
S2 (31:46):
Yeah. They're good.
S3 (31:47):
They're really good. So in in Bali, went to a
had an all day workshop of getting into one degree
ice bath and, and lately I've been going sauna, ice bath, sauna,
ice bath. And it does feel like you are high
when you get out.
S2 (32:02):
It feels amazing.
S3 (32:02):
It's so good. Um, and it's very trendy at the moment.
They're springing up everywhere and. Yeah, so that's my current
favourite wellness treatment.
S2 (32:12):
After you were involved in the making of WrestleMania, what
were your impressions of the television industry?
S3 (32:19):
Um, I think it's a tough industry. And, um.
S2 (32:23):
Because WrestleMania didn't get picked up for a second season,
even though it was fantastic.
S3 (32:27):
Yeah. I mean, that was shocking to me. I was like,
it was like number two in Sweden. Well, Swedish loved it,
but also look everywhere else like it did really, really well. Um, Netflix,
you know, they're a really they're a global behemoth and
it was really hard to like. They're not transparent necessarily
as to why they renew things or don't renew things.
(32:48):
So I never found out why it didn't get renewed.
It did end on a cliffhanger with Lorraine getting hit
by a car, so I often get asked. I was
in Thailand last week and I was at this gym
and one of the trainers were talking about WrestleMania and
he's like, what happened to Lorraine? Like, we never found out.
And um, so yeah, so that was sad. But like,
(33:08):
I think with TV, it is like it's a tough
industry to survive in that industry, particularly as a writer
or a show creator. You've got to have balls of steel. So, uh,
hats off to anyone who you know is in there
and making stuff. I think TV is facing the same
challenges that everything's facing at the moment, which is shrinking
(33:31):
attention spans. And, um, you know, the rise of short
form video and all that sort of stuff. So it's
it's fighting for its life. I'm pretty grateful. While many
got made in the first place.
S2 (33:42):
If you could meet one of your literary heroes, who?
Who would it be?
S3 (33:46):
Oh, that's a good question. What am I, literary? I
loved growing up. I loved J.D. Salinger. Like I just
thought I'd catch from the Rye was my favorite book.
But then you read these biographies, like, later on about
how he liked young girls, and he was, you know,
and I'm like.
S2 (34:02):
Don't meet your heroes.
S3 (34:03):
Do I want to meet him? Um, I met Joan
Didion once in New York at a reading. Her husband
had just died, and, um, I got I, like, was
at the signing table and I got up to the
front and I gushed, and I was like, I've always
wanted to meet him. I love you so much. You're
my you know, I'm your biggest fan. And she just
kind of looked at me with this dead stare. She
(34:25):
was just so cold. And I was devastated, and I
was I was out with a New Yorker later and
I said, oh, she was terrible. And he's like, number one,
never meet your hero. Number two don't have heroes. So
maybe there's, uh, maybe literary figures that I'd like to meet, um,
are none of them. Because they, their best selves exist
in their books.
S2 (34:46):
And what are your what are your the sort of
2 or 3 good books that you've read lately, if any?
Maybe you've just been in the Thai gym eating protein?
S3 (34:57):
Um, no. I've been on a reading binge of late,
so I've been reading a lot about AI. So there's
one called The Empire Empire of AI, which is Karen Howe,
which is like good, very meaty book. I've read the
new Elizabeth Gilbert memoir, which I, you know, I have
mixed feelings about. Not not great. It's kind of okay, um,
(35:19):
pretty wild. I've read a book called rejection, which has
been described as, um, a by a guy called Tony.
I can't remember his last name, but it is America's
first incel novel, which was pretty shocking.
S2 (35:34):
Wow. Okay, so it's from the perspective of the incel.
S3 (35:38):
Yeah, yeah. So that was pretty dark. Um, I'm reading
a lot. Loving, loving all the books that are coming
out at the moment. October's a big month, so looking
forward to getting stuck into the titles that come out
that month.
S2 (35:50):
Well, thanks very much for coming in. Thanks for having
a chat.
S3 (35:54):
Fantastic. Great to chat.
S1 (35:59):
That was author Brigid Delaney in conversation with Good Weekend
senior writer Melissa Fyfe on the latest Good Weekend talks.
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate
and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning
in for more compelling conversations. Good Weekend Talks is brought
to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age
(36:20):
proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong.
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