February 7, 2025 • 35 mins
We speak with Millie Millgate, the director of Music Australia, established by the federal government two years ago to support our contemporary music scene. It’s a tough gig given the issues facing the local music industry. Festivals have been paused or cancelled. Live music venues are struggling. And local hits are few and far between.
Millgate knows the industry back to front, having started out booking acts for Sydney pubs, then working in artist management, before running the music export initiative “Sounds Australia”. She talks to Sydney Morning Herald senior writer Garry Maddox about everything from the “glocalisation” of music, to the power of algorithms, to how we’ll find the next G Flip or Kid Laroi.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Conrad Marceau and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks,
a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating
people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.
Every week, you can download new episodes in which top
journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about
(00:26):
the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we
speak with Millie Millgate, the CEO of Music Australia. Millgate
knows the industry back to front. Having started out booking
acts for Sydney pubs, then working in artist management before
running the music export initiative Sounds Australia, she's now the
inaugural director of Music Australia, established by the federal government
(00:50):
two years ago to support our contemporary music scene. It's
an interesting time to be in the role given the
concerns percolating in the local music industry. Festivals have been
paused or cancelled. Live music venues are struggling. There were
just five Aussie songs in the Aria's Top 100 for
2024 and Triple J's Hottest 100 only a few weeks
(01:11):
ago had its lowest number of local artists since 1996.
And hosting this conversation about everything from the future of
festivals to where the next Kid Laroi or G flip
will come from, is Sydney Morning Herald's senior writer, Garry Maddox.
S2 (01:30):
Thanks, Conrad. And welcome, Emily. Can I start by asking
you about yourself? Where did you grow up? What sort
of family was it, and were you a musical kid?
S3 (01:38):
Uh, I wasn't a musical kid. I grew up in Davidson,
which is near Frenchs Forest. Uh, mum, dad and a
younger brother. Mum had visions, I think, of both my
brother and I playing the piano to her in her
senior year. So we were both, uh, introduced to music
through Yamaha School of School of Music, which is interesting
(02:00):
because you really learn theory and chords. You don't tend
to really learn to be a great performer. So I
got a little bit of the basics and was quite,
you know, okay with it, but it wasn't really, to
be honest, a passion in that respect. So yeah, you know,
family trips, listening to all the stuff Mum and Dad
listen to, you know, lots of Paul Simon and the
(02:21):
Beatles and but I never was really like, I do
believe a lot of my peers and a lot of
people that find themselves in the music industry are diehard
music fans, or they are musicians that have now found
another path. But I definitely have come of it quite differently.
S2 (02:39):
You started working in music quite early on. Yeah, Macquarie
Uni Events Management. Then you did some booking for the
Annandale and Hopetoun, two famous music hotels. Tell us a
bit about those jobs and what you learned from them.
S3 (02:52):
Yeah, I mean I, I guess coming into music, it
was more event side that I was in, and it
wasn't until I started to really just see when you
were booking music at a university, you know, for every
single student there was on campus, there was a taste.
And so that was just such a really wonderful playground
to be able to explore and to, to program, um,
(03:13):
you know, all kinds of different music. You know, we
did some of the first hip hop out there and,
you know, it was about I just got such a
thrill of seeing people's reactions to new music they hadn't seen,
and being able to bring some of the more established
artists in, uh, gosh, I learned a lot booking live venues.
I mean, it was absolutely about bums on seats, to
(03:33):
be frank. You know, you could have all your favorite,
you know, your own personal favorites. But the publicans I
were working for absolutely needed people to walk into that
building and drink beer and alcohol. And to be honest, that,
you know, the relationship between alcohol and music still very
synonymous and kind of, in a way, some of the
(03:54):
problems we're seeing lives there as well. But I think,
you know, booking a place like the Hopetoun. It again
every single night we would have, you know, different music
from punk to shoegaze to indie folk to, as I said,
some of the earlier hip hop stuff. And the audience
became the room, if you know what I mean. Like,
it wasn't only a certain style, like it just adapted.
(04:16):
And yeah, I got such a really great introduction to
all the different players in the music industry. I guess
all the different booking agents, all the different labels were
doing different things. So I really feel blessed that I
had such a grounding in those really grassroots live music venues,
which is so key now and something that, you know,
(04:36):
Covid absolutely destroyed live music overnight. And I think we're
still recovering. We're absolutely still recovering. But those communities that
were built out of the grassroots were so key and important.
I think we need to really revisit what they offer
and what they bring.
S2 (04:52):
Okay. Tell us about your time managing bands.
S3 (04:55):
Yeah. Um, I think for the first few years when
I was probably what I, you know, absolutely was technically managing,
I never could say I was a manager. You know,
I was helping out, you know, I had some mates
in bands. I think most managers start that way, you know,
you're just helping out some friends. Uh, I think today
the role of the manager is so all encompassing. And
(05:16):
you are really becoming, you know, a specialist in so
many different areas. Uh, I love that you could work
with a very small team. And there was a lot
of us against the world feeling to it. But, you know,
when things got going, um, you know, that managerial role
is so instrumental. Uh, and again, I think in terms
(05:38):
of the grounding for the role that I'm in now, management,
you couldn't have asked for a better decade of experience.
You know, a lot of trial and error. Yeah.
S2 (05:46):
Tell us about what bands they were and and how
they performed. How easy or hard was it to get
a break for them?
S3 (05:53):
Uh, well, look at the time. Look, my my dealings
with artists were indie bands for people that may know
them Bluebottle, Kiss the Camels, Ramona Stone, um, and they yeah,
they definitely were showing progress and going through what the term.
So we're talking late 90s, early 2000 was, was the
time I was really sort of in the deep of management,
(06:15):
but there was some pretty clear pathways that were pretty, um,
you know, you knew you had to try and get
some radio and that that existed, whether you know, all
the really great community radio stations that were there and
still are today, you know, obviously at the time, triple
J and national radio was really key to allow you
to start doing more and more touring and certainly touring
(06:36):
in to the regions. And then, you know, the real
goal of some commercial radio. Um, and then you sort
of parlayed that and married it with trying to get,
you know, building your shows, you know, start with the
first show, bring some, you know, it's always friends and family.
Hopefully it's good enough that you bring more people. You
get a support slot and you sort of sort of
build build that way. But there was a lot, I think,
(06:56):
clearer pathways. There was a lot more music. Australian music
media support, whether that was print media, um, as well as,
you know, the street press, the free street press, every day,
you knew what was going on, you knew what was happening, um, where.
So yeah, quite a different landscape to what we're seeing now.
S2 (07:13):
You ran Sounds Australia, the national music export Initiative. How
successful were you in getting Australian artists on the world stage?
S3 (07:20):
Oh, look, I think over that time we definitely saw
an increase with without Question and the way and why
sounds Australia was set up was they started to be
this idea of a showcase conference event. So you might
have heard of things like South by Southwest, there's The
Great Escape in the UK, a lot of genre events.
So there's classical next for contemporary classical Jazzahead Americana, we
(07:42):
were able to provide opportunities for Australian artists to a
be seen more so get more chance to play. You
often only got one showcase as part of the offer.
As an official artist, we were we were able to
produce a number of showcases so you could be seen
by the industry and really importantly, was creating networking events
that were going to put your managers in front of
(08:03):
key labels or key promoters or key festivals. So, I mean,
there are thousands of examples of success that artists have
had that we know came from introductions, from those initial, um,
emerging events. But I think over the years it's it's
been going for 15 years now. And there's, you know,
if you look at artists like flume, Vance Joy, Rufus
(08:24):
Du Sol, King Gizzard, um, Courtney Barnett, all of their
very first shows were on those those stages.
S2 (08:31):
Okay. How much can you strategize to get success internationally,
and how much is it just down to having the
right song that becomes a hit at the right time?
S3 (08:40):
It's look, without question, the song has to play such
an important role. I think, you know, the valuing of
the IP and the creation of the song needs constant development,
and it really You're not going to go too far
without great songs, but there's a lot that goes around it.
And I think what Australian artists need to understand and
what they're dealing with is they are competing globally. You know,
(09:02):
it used to be that it would be whatever Australian
releases were out that week, you'd be up against those acts.
And then, you know, when you're sort of building territory
by territory, you know, before streaming, you're only competing with
what's being released in Australia now. From the minute you
release your first song, you're global, you're exporting from the
first song you have on Spotify and you're competing with.
(09:25):
I think the statistic was that in every single day now,
like the 120,000 songs that are released, was the total
amount released in the year 1989. So you're looking at
43 million tracks a year. So the idea of how
you compete, how you break through, it's a really big question.
S2 (09:45):
That's a terrifying number.
S3 (09:46):
It is a terrifying number, I agree.
S2 (09:48):
What about young artists? When they start out, they probably think,
all right, this is a form of self-expression. I want
to create something. I want to play music that a
certain group of people respond to. Do they have to
think internationally? Wouldn't it be enough for them just to
have local success?
S3 (10:07):
I don't think look, I think if you're doing it
just for your own self enjoyment and a hobbyist, then
that's one thing. But if we're really talking in terms
of artists that are wanting to break. You can no
longer build or sustain a career domestically. It's just it's
not physically possible. It used to be that you would
record an album, and then you would go out and
(10:30):
tour to drive sales to the record. You were earning
money from every record sale and it was a physical product.
And so the revenue was at a certain level. Now
we've got a situation that's almost 180 degree change, where
people are constantly putting out singles content. It might not
even be a single different kinds of content to grab
(10:50):
attention to, then drive you to a show. So that
entire idea has changed entirely. Do you know what I mean?
So yeah, like you're constantly just you constantly have to
be on your social media releasing so people know who
you are. But the revenue that's coming in from streaming
is really different to what it was in physical sales.
(11:13):
So it's taking longer to earn the revenue, but you
have to have that presence on the socials. It does
seem to have that impact.
S2 (11:20):
It does seem like TikTok has a particular influence on
artists at the moment. Do they have to be on TikTok?
S3 (11:25):
Look, I think artists really the role of an artist
has changed so much. You know, it's the simple idea
that you can write songs and create. Music is a
skill unto itself, and that's amazing. And that should be
celebrated and invested in. It's now then artists really do
need to take, you know, a lot of responsibility for
creating this online presence and profile, because that's the world
(11:48):
they're living in. I don't think every artist should be
on every platform. I think that's crazy. And we need
to really be mindful of mental health and the pressures
that that puts on young artists. But I think, you know,
it's about testing them out and finding where your audience
are and finding what's going to work for you. The
frequency that will work for you. But, you know, if
you really look at the acts that are, you know,
(12:10):
we're not talking established acts that have been able to
harness already existing audiences. Brand new acts that are starting out.
It really is those that have been able to build
these international audiences through online platforms that are having the
most success.
S2 (12:25):
Splendour in the grass is the latest music festival to
either be paused or cancelled. Why do you think festivals
are struggling so much and is this a permanent condition?
S3 (12:36):
Look, I don't think it's permanent. I think at Music
Australia and with the Creative Australia research team, we've now
released two big key pieces of research soundcheck one and
soundcheck two. Really looking at what are these drivers and
where are the issues? Obviously cost of living. You know,
that's not unique to the music industry, but it really
and truly has had a huge impact on festivals. Definitely
(12:57):
seeing the impacts of insurance. And we're doing a third
piece of research into what could a mutuals look like
for the industry. But we're also.
S2 (13:06):
Seeing another form of a better form of insurance.
S3 (13:08):
Possibly. Yeah. Whether it's going to work, we don't know yet.
It's a little bit of a feasibility study, but we're
certainly really mindful of that area for festival promoters. Um,
the other thing, you know, coming out of the pandemic
years is this audience behavior and changes in ticket buying
and how they're holding off. You know, people are really
waiting to the last minute to buy tickets. Now, that's
(13:29):
really hard when you're managing a festival and you need
a certain amount to break even before you call it.
So I think there's definitely things that we've we've seen,
and I think we're starting to see I mean, you know,
laneway has sold out beyond the Valley just did some
of its biggest numbers today. Party in the park. Party
in the paddocks gearing up really well. Like they're a
(13:50):
really great success. Stories still happening and we've seen over
time there's been, you know, swings and roundabouts with festivals
like the Big Day Out like Future like that, that
are here and then for various changes and reasons they're not.
But I think in many ways, when you look at
the splendour in the grass, it does come back to
the way people are listening and that personification of listening.
(14:12):
So where we used to have, you know, broadcast and
everyone was listening to triple J, so if you did
a triple J type lineup, everyone was hearing it. We've
got a lot more narrowcasting where people are listening to podcasts,
they're listening, you know, on their phone and they're listening
to what they want when they want it on demand.
You know, I think for young people now, the idea
of radio, they're going to want like, why are they
(14:34):
waiting around hoping that their favourite song comes on when
they can just listen? But what comes with that? Personalised
listening is also a lot of passive listening, and also
algorithms that are not necessarily Putting Australian artists front and
centre there.
S2 (15:04):
Last year there were just five Australian songs in Aria's
top 100, and we've had just had the lowest number
of Australian artists in the hottest 100 since 1996. How
worried should we be by those dismal numbers?
S3 (15:15):
Yeah, I think it's a real worry, and I think
we've got a lot of, um, dichotomy going on. Australia
as a music market is still the 10th biggest music
market in the world. We just had the live performance
Australia results showed that we have reached record highs in
terms of ticket buying and audience numbers, and a lot
of that is driven by the growth of contemporary music.
(15:37):
So there's no question at all about the appetite for
music by Australians. It's just how much of it is
Australian music? And clearly, Really. Clearly, those results on the
Aria charts and on the triple J 100 are showing
that we're not listening to our own. There was a
report done by a company called Luminate and that shows
(15:57):
that Australian. So this is of the top 10,000 artists.
What are Australians listening to? 62% is US artists from
the US. A little over 16 is from the UK,
and Australian music listened to by Australians comes in third
at 9.2%. That is not great. No matter how you
(16:18):
look at that now, I can't believe that that's a
deliberate choice. I don't believe it's intentional. I just think
it's where we find ourselves. But I also think it
means there's a lot of room for growth and a
lot of new room to be able to shift that.
And I and I think it's, um. Yeah, it's really
fascinating because you look at the Australian artists, it's not
(16:40):
the quality of the product, you know, commercially and critically,
the success Australians are Australians are having internationally is evident.
You look at APRA Amcos, which report on the royalties
and the revenue generated from the song, and that's at
an all time high for the international. The amount of
Australian artists touring internationally has never been higher, and Spotify
(17:00):
put out a report. They've done it for the last
two years called Loud and Clear, and that talks about 80%
of the revenue coming in on Spotify for Australian artists
is from overseas. So you can't question the product. The
product is there. You know, I think it was last week,
the Brit Awards like really the biggest awards for the British.
We had four Australians, so both two for international artists
(17:23):
of the year in Confidence Man and Amyl and the sniffers.
And both Kevin Parker and Sonny Fodera have been nominated
for song of the year. That's huge, you know? So
it's a really fascinating phenomena. I think, um, there's a
term that people are talking about called glocalization, and this
idea that previously we could take Australian music and Western
(17:46):
music was, you know, going globally into different countries. What
we've got now as a result of streaming increases, and
particularly in some of the emerging markets, is they're going
to consume their own. And this is happening when it's
non Australian when it's non English. So if you can
you can see the numbers just growing and growing and growing.
Brazilians are listening to Brazilian German listening to Germany where
(18:09):
that's not happening are in Australia, in New Zealand, in Canada,
in Ireland. And I think for all of those English
speaking countries, you're not getting the benefit of a local
language driver when the growth in the streaming numbers increasing. Instead,
what we're getting is that when people are listening to
really big albums that are coming out by Charli XCX and,
(18:32):
you know, Chappell, Roan and you know, Billie Eilish, it
then continues to listen and they'll be served up the
next US product.
S2 (18:41):
By the algorithm. So we're at the mercy of the.
S3 (18:44):
Algorithm, I think. Yeah, I think there is definitely that.
And I do think it needs to be looked at.
But I also think, you know, those, um, the people,
the Australian based people working for those companies are doing
some really terrific initiatives driving Australian music. And and on
the one hand, globally, what we're doing globally is because
of the DSPs. So it's it's this really interesting when
(19:07):
people talk about, oh, you know, there's not enough on
the triple J hottest 100 or there's not. It's absolutely facts.
There's no denying that, that there are so many multi-faceted
and complex reasons as to why. And there's not one
silver bullet to fix it either. So when Music Australia
looks at our investments and where we're trying to, um,
(19:27):
you know, really strategically look at our, our way of
supporting artists, it has to be across that whole ecology.
S2 (19:34):
Okay. So what direct measures can Music Australia do to
help young Australian artists in particular?
S3 (19:41):
Yeah. Well, I guess you know the things when I
look at what we do, there's ten areas of investment.
We look in artist development, we look at industry development. Absolutely.
Market development. So everything from your festivals and grassroots through
to export also what's happening on screen. So music in film,
music in gaming. Um, we also looking at music education.
(20:04):
We absolutely have to look at, you know, how do
you get not only the learning of the instruments like
Yamaha and you know my brother and I, but what
about learning how to record a song, learning how to
write a song. So getting music back into the curriculum
and having that really start to allow audiences as well,
audience development appreciation, um, we need to look at again,
(20:27):
we're doing a lot of research to try and really
tease out where people can direct investments and the industry themselves,
but I think a big part of our measures is
going to start to be evaluating what impact has the
money we've put into export had, so we've only been
making investments. It's not even 12 months now. Um, in
(20:47):
terms of how we can start to see those results.
But we've got people at the ready to start to
look at, um, you know, what kind of impact will
it have? What kind of growth will it have? Um,
we've made investments most recently into 23 record labels. So
they're really at the coalface of investing in Australian talent, recording,
you know, producing, helping with all the content delivery. Um, but.
S2 (21:10):
They if you give them a grant, they will look
for their own Australian artists or you.
S3 (21:14):
Tell them it's only for Australian artists. So they have
to invest in Australian artists with that.
S2 (21:19):
Um, will you steer them towards particular artists or will
they have to?
S3 (21:22):
No, not at all. No. And in terms of, you know,
you know, certainly the ministers at arm's distance to any
of that selection. I'm fortunate that Music Australia is based
within Creative Australia that has incredibly robust assessing processes. So
we use industry advisers. So they rank all of the,
you know, whether it's an export category or otherwise. And
(21:43):
then we sit around and we have a meeting, a
full day meeting, really looking at, you know, who they
want to support and why. They'll give us the best
possible advice. And then we'll take it from there.
S2 (21:52):
The good news is we still do have brilliant talents emerging.
We've got, um, you know, just to name a few.
G Flip and Royal Lotus and the Kid Laroi. Where
will the next generation of young emerging artists come from?
S3 (22:08):
I think they're going to come from everywhere. Look, I
think our First Nation talent is incredible. And I think,
you know, certainly in hip hop and in country and,
you know, the stories, the stories that they're telling are
so unique. So for them to, you know, hone a
craft and really be able to tell, you know, an
incredible story. Um, well, I mean, they're coming from all
(22:29):
corners of Australia. There's, you know, I think more and
more people, you know, I think part of that statistic
around the 120,000 songs being released today, it's something like
75 million music creators, and that's going to double by
the year 2030. So, you know, they're coming, people. You know,
the access to making music is even easier. You know,
people are able to use AI in innovative ways. We
(22:51):
definitely need to look at how AI is being used
with existing copyrighted music. That's a whole other area that
I think we really need to pay attention to before
it is too soon. And I think, um, it's something
that's going to change the shape of all forms of media,
you know, not not just music. Um, but. Yeah, look,
(23:11):
I talent's not the problem. Every, every day you hear
something new and exciting.
S2 (23:17):
Okay. Uh, the triple J hottest 100 was dominated by
young women who are singer songwriters from overseas. Does that
tell us something about the trends permanently, or is that
and and the notion of who listens to things? Or
is it just a, a nature of how the market
shifts from say.
S3 (23:37):
Yeah, it's a bit, It's a bit. I mean, trends
by definition, I think are constantly changing. I think what's
interesting with the solo artists, I would suggest that in
more recent years there's more and more solo artists. And
if you look at just at a local scenario, it's
because the cost of touring a band is a lot
of money. You know, even the idea of, you know,
(23:59):
every street on a corner had a garage band. These
were the bands that were living in the city and
the inner cities of Brunswick and Newtown. That's not happening anymore.
They can't afford to live in the city. So I
think when you when people are starting out and a
lot of the music that they're, you know, able to
make in their bedroom isn't with 5 or 6 people,
you know, it's very much they're doing it. So there's
(24:20):
a lot more producers. There's a lot more, you know,
performing to track. And the way people are listening to music,
they're used to that. They're used to digital creation. And
it's not all about, you know, seven live instruments. So
I think that's probably had a little bit of an
impact on it. I know of the, you 2.4 million
voters in the triple J hottest, 162% were women that voted.
(24:44):
So I don't know exactly what that tells you, but,
you know, it could really reflect the type of artist
that did well. And I think we saw that with
with a number of the certainly, you know, with both
Billie Eilish and, um, Charli XCX getting, you know, eight
songs apiece.
S2 (25:01):
On.
S3 (25:01):
Top. Yeah.
S2 (25:02):
Yeah. Mhm. Uh, there's been a big switch obviously to
country music in the States. Uh, do we cater for
that market well enough? And if we don't how do
we do it.
S3 (25:11):
I think look I think country here, you know, there
were a lot of people up in Tamworth last week, uh,
is growing and growing. Um, the Luminate data shows that
in terms of Australian growth in country, not only consuming
international artists, but also local artists, you know, I think
Luke Combs is playing out at Acorn on Friday. There
(25:32):
is a real appetite for country music. The country music
festival that happens is just selling out year on year. Um,
and then I think we are seeing more and more
Australian artists really, you know, growing in that field as well.
S2 (25:45):
Okay. Do you think Australia, uh, is over, on top
of all the sort of different styles of music that
appeal to people both here and overseas? Um, you know, uh, rap, uh,
country sort of singer songwriter stuff, hard rock, all of
those things. Do you think we have enough talent across
all of these different areas?
S3 (26:05):
Yeah, I do, I really do. I mean, we have
the privilege of, you know, seeing all the artists that
are applying for export grants. And that really is a
really good split across different genres. And I think, you know,
for a long time, I mean, Australian heavy metal artists like,
you know, the really heavy rock stuff has for a
long time batted above its weight over, you know, in
(26:26):
Europe and are constantly building networks and going back and
forth with no one here knowing what's going on. Um,
so yeah, look, I do and I think it used
to be that you would have to build a career
in Australia and you'd, you know, have to tour the
country X amount of times and release and, you know, get,
get a certain amount of airplay. But as I said before,
(26:46):
you are exporting from the first single you release, and
what you're listening to is so universal and global. Like,
you're really not carving out territories like you used to
anymore either. So I think for a lot of the
new Australian artists, you know, coming through, they're listening and
influenced by, you know, music from everywhere.
S2 (27:05):
Yeah, we see a lot of nostalgia at play when
it comes to buying concert tickets in particular, and probably even, uh,
you know, streaming as well. Is that a good thing
or a bad thing?
S3 (27:16):
Oh, look, I'm going to just say it's a thing.
You know, you can't. I think, you know, we really
leant into nostalgia during the pandemic. And look, let's be fair,
those artists were fantastic. You know, when you look at
Spiderbait and Regurgitator and you am I and something for
Kate and they're all still going, you know, none of
them have stopped. They've just kept going. They've, you know,
(27:37):
in some instances got better. Um, so I think it's
a little bit of a revival for those acts because
they weren't able to export in the same way. So
they've still got these really massive Australian fan bases that
they've been able to, you know, draw on. And I
think a lot of the 90s acts that are touring
and the small one day festivals they put together are
(27:57):
all doing extremely well. What you'd like to see is,
you know, if those people going to those shows could
then also start, you know, seeking out and hunting new
acts as well.
S2 (28:08):
If I'm a young artist listening to this Milli and
I hear talk about, you know, export grants and, uh,
need to know more about the business and be educated
in different ways. I might be a little intimidated because
this is not how I see my career evolving. What
advice do you have for people like that?
S3 (28:26):
I think the thing is, if you can, don't be intimidated.
There are a lot of good people working in different
organizations that whose entire role is there to help? I
think in every single state and territory, there's a music office.
So it's the gaming network. So there's music, New South
Wales music, Queensland music, Tas music NT. I would start
(28:46):
by getting involved with what they've got going on locally.
So whether they're putting on local events where you can
learn more or networking opportunities. A lot of it is
just learning and listening to people that have come before,
you know, it's not an easy, um, thing to to
just suddenly get like, I reckon, coming through. I had
to be explained publishing, music publishing where you've got the
(29:11):
copyright in the song and the copyright in the sound
recording at least 60 times before I understood it. But
for a young artist, they're your two greatest source of
revenue outside of live music. So if you don't understand
how they work and who manages them and how they
can be exploited for good, then it's going to be
really hard. So it's it's definitely you want them to
(29:34):
love it and have their passion for music. And you know,
so much of music is about telling a story and identity.
And we want Australian stories out there. We want Australian
stories to to travel the world. But you can't you
can't not understand. It's a business. As an artist, you
are running a small business. You will ultimately go on
to an employer manager. You will employ a booking agent,
(29:55):
you will engage a record label. They are all working
for you. And if you don't have the necessary skills,
financial literacy, you know, planning, understanding the media depth and
all the different socials and what you need to do online,
it's going to be really hard for you to succeed.
S2 (30:13):
The blockbuster of blockbusters in music was Taylor Swift's Eras
Tour 149 shows, 53 cities, five continents grossed more than
2.2 billion USD. It's, um. She was such a beloved
figure when she was on that tour. She still is,
of course. But tell us what we can learn from
(30:33):
the success and maybe the relationship between artists and their
fans from that tour.
S3 (30:38):
Well, I think that's it. You've just summed it up
with artists and their fans. I think Taylor, from a really,
really early age understood that whilst you've got all these
mechanics in the ecosystem that I've been referring to, ultimately
there's no stronger or more powerful role than that role
that you can have and that relationship and engagement you
can have with your fan. So I think she absolutely
(30:59):
brought that to the forefront in a way no one understood.
You know, we've seen it now with Fred again, you know,
he really has has built a fan engagement through discord.
And you're seeing more and more artists are taking themselves
off platforms owned by others and really bringing people back
to their own websites and their own newsletters. So I
(31:22):
think Dermot Kennedy was another one. James Taylor. It is changing.
People are really understanding that if you have that relationship
with your fan and it can't just be, oh, I've
got a CD out, I'm on tour. It can't just
be this. You're speaking at them, telling them what you've got.
It's about how do you bring them into the conversation?
(31:44):
How do you have that constant.
S2 (31:45):
Respect that works for both people, too, because it sort
of helps artists go on when they're facing knockbacks or
something doesn't work, or a tour falls over or something
like that. The support of bands. Bands of fans, the
support of fans of bands can help and artists can
help them.
S3 (32:02):
Yeah, I think look locally. I think G Flip and
Troye Sivan are really good examples of that. They really
they absolutely know their audience and they, you know, I'm
pretty sure I heard with G flip, um, they'd been
a fan maybe of me, of Meg Mac and, you know,
as a younger artist themselves received a response from a
(32:23):
DM and it really stuck with them that, oh, this
meant so much to me as a fan. I'm going
to do that for my audiences. And, you know, the
amount of time G will spend engaging, you know, one
on one and commenting, like just taking the time, waking
up every day and responding to comments. Okay. It's not
what people probably think they're signing up for in the
(32:45):
music business, but boy, does that make a difference. You know.
S2 (32:48):
Uh, we've talked a lot about the problems facing Australian
music for young artists who are listening, or even artists
who are in the middle stages of their career. Tell
us why they should be optimistic.
S3 (33:01):
I think we've never had the funding that we've had
before in contemporary music, and it's still really, really early days.
So the announcement from the federal government in January 23rd
was for 69 million for the creation of Music Australia Sound,
New South Wales, which is similarly supporting New South Wales artists,
has just been set up. We last week WA announced
(33:25):
a contemporary music package. You know, there are more people
actively with resources than there ever has been. I think
we've just got to start to see that start to
play out and trickle through. Um, and I still think
we're making really great music, and I still think, you know,
now that we've had time and resources to look at
the research, the research that we'll have coming out in
(33:46):
March and then again in April and June really is
going to start to unpack some of this. You know
what we're looking at discovery. We're looking at consumption and engagement.
You know, having that data and really getting deep into it.
How do we then look at campaigns that will, you know,
ultimately we need more Australians consuming Australian music. And I
(34:08):
would love for anyone listening to, you know, listen more,
dig deeper. And and you don't have to, you know,
we'd love you to go and buy CDs, but even
listening more will make such a difference.
S2 (34:19):
Okay, everyone who loves Australian music wishes you every success, Millie.
So thanks for talking to us today.
S3 (34:24):
Thanks.
S1 (34:31):
That was Music Australia boss Millie Millgate being interviewed by
Garry Maddox on the latest Good Weekend talks. If you
enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment
wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for
more compelling conversations. Coming soon, we'll chat with journalist Peter
Greste and the actor Richard Roxburgh, who's playing him in
(34:53):
the upcoming film The Correspondent. Good Weekend Talks is brought
to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing from
(35:13):
Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina
Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
Hi, I'm Conrad Marceau and from the Sydney Morning Herald
and The Age. Welcome to season six of Good Weekend Talks,
a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating
people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.
Every week, you can download new episodes in which top
journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about
(00:26):
the definitive stories of the day. In this episode, we
speak with Millie Millgate, the CEO of Music Australia. Millgate
knows the industry back to front. Having started out booking
acts for Sydney pubs, then working in artist management before
running the music export initiative Sounds Australia, she's now the
inaugural director of Music Australia, established by the federal government
(00:50):
two years ago to support our contemporary music scene. It's
an interesting time to be in the role given the
concerns percolating in the local music industry. Festivals have been
paused or cancelled. Live music venues are struggling. There were
just five Aussie songs in the Aria's Top 100 for
2024 and Triple J's Hottest 100 only a few weeks
(01:11):
ago had its lowest number of local artists since 1996.
And hosting this conversation about everything from the future of
festivals to where the next Kid Laroi or G flip
will come from, is Sydney Morning Herald's senior writer, Garry Maddox.
S2 (01:30):
Thanks, Conrad. And welcome, Emily. Can I start by asking
you about yourself? Where did you grow up? What sort
of family was it, and were you a musical kid?
S3 (01:38):
Uh, I wasn't a musical kid. I grew up in Davidson,
which is near Frenchs Forest. Uh, mum, dad and a
younger brother. Mum had visions, I think, of both my
brother and I playing the piano to her in her
senior year. So we were both, uh, introduced to music
through Yamaha School of School of Music, which is interesting
(02:00):
because you really learn theory and chords. You don't tend
to really learn to be a great performer. So I
got a little bit of the basics and was quite,
you know, okay with it, but it wasn't really, to
be honest, a passion in that respect. So yeah, you know,
family trips, listening to all the stuff Mum and Dad
listen to, you know, lots of Paul Simon and the
(02:21):
Beatles and but I never was really like, I do
believe a lot of my peers and a lot of
people that find themselves in the music industry are diehard
music fans, or they are musicians that have now found
another path. But I definitely have come of it quite differently.
S2 (02:39):
You started working in music quite early on. Yeah, Macquarie
Uni Events Management. Then you did some booking for the
Annandale and Hopetoun, two famous music hotels. Tell us a
bit about those jobs and what you learned from them.
S3 (02:52):
Yeah, I mean I, I guess coming into music, it
was more event side that I was in, and it
wasn't until I started to really just see when you
were booking music at a university, you know, for every
single student there was on campus, there was a taste.
And so that was just such a really wonderful playground
to be able to explore and to, to program, um,
(03:13):
you know, all kinds of different music. You know, we
did some of the first hip hop out there and,
you know, it was about I just got such a
thrill of seeing people's reactions to new music they hadn't seen,
and being able to bring some of the more established
artists in, uh, gosh, I learned a lot booking live venues.
I mean, it was absolutely about bums on seats, to
(03:33):
be frank. You know, you could have all your favorite,
you know, your own personal favorites. But the publicans I
were working for absolutely needed people to walk into that
building and drink beer and alcohol. And to be honest, that,
you know, the relationship between alcohol and music still very
synonymous and kind of, in a way, some of the
(03:54):
problems we're seeing lives there as well. But I think,
you know, booking a place like the Hopetoun. It again
every single night we would have, you know, different music
from punk to shoegaze to indie folk to, as I said,
some of the earlier hip hop stuff. And the audience
became the room, if you know what I mean. Like,
it wasn't only a certain style, like it just adapted.
(04:16):
And yeah, I got such a really great introduction to
all the different players in the music industry. I guess
all the different booking agents, all the different labels were
doing different things. So I really feel blessed that I
had such a grounding in those really grassroots live music venues,
which is so key now and something that, you know,
(04:36):
Covid absolutely destroyed live music overnight. And I think we're
still recovering. We're absolutely still recovering. But those communities that
were built out of the grassroots were so key and important.
I think we need to really revisit what they offer
and what they bring.
S2 (04:52):
Okay. Tell us about your time managing bands.
S3 (04:55):
Yeah. Um, I think for the first few years when
I was probably what I, you know, absolutely was technically managing,
I never could say I was a manager. You know,
I was helping out, you know, I had some mates
in bands. I think most managers start that way, you know,
you're just helping out some friends. Uh, I think today
the role of the manager is so all encompassing. And
(05:16):
you are really becoming, you know, a specialist in so
many different areas. Uh, I love that you could work
with a very small team. And there was a lot
of us against the world feeling to it. But, you know,
when things got going, um, you know, that managerial role
is so instrumental. Uh, and again, I think in terms
(05:38):
of the grounding for the role that I'm in now, management,
you couldn't have asked for a better decade of experience.
You know, a lot of trial and error. Yeah.
S2 (05:46):
Tell us about what bands they were and and how
they performed. How easy or hard was it to get
a break for them?
S3 (05:53):
Uh, well, look at the time. Look, my my dealings
with artists were indie bands for people that may know
them Bluebottle, Kiss the Camels, Ramona Stone, um, and they yeah,
they definitely were showing progress and going through what the term.
So we're talking late 90s, early 2000 was, was the
time I was really sort of in the deep of management,
(06:15):
but there was some pretty clear pathways that were pretty, um,
you know, you knew you had to try and get
some radio and that that existed, whether you know, all
the really great community radio stations that were there and
still are today, you know, obviously at the time, triple
J and national radio was really key to allow you
to start doing more and more touring and certainly touring
(06:36):
in to the regions. And then, you know, the real
goal of some commercial radio. Um, and then you sort
of parlayed that and married it with trying to get,
you know, building your shows, you know, start with the
first show, bring some, you know, it's always friends and family.
Hopefully it's good enough that you bring more people. You
get a support slot and you sort of sort of
build build that way. But there was a lot, I think,
(06:56):
clearer pathways. There was a lot more music. Australian music
media support, whether that was print media, um, as well as,
you know, the street press, the free street press, every day,
you knew what was going on, you knew what was happening, um, where.
So yeah, quite a different landscape to what we're seeing now.
S2 (07:13):
You ran Sounds Australia, the national music export Initiative. How
successful were you in getting Australian artists on the world stage?
S3 (07:20):
Oh, look, I think over that time we definitely saw
an increase with without Question and the way and why
sounds Australia was set up was they started to be
this idea of a showcase conference event. So you might
have heard of things like South by Southwest, there's The
Great Escape in the UK, a lot of genre events.
So there's classical next for contemporary classical Jazzahead Americana, we
(07:42):
were able to provide opportunities for Australian artists to a
be seen more so get more chance to play. You
often only got one showcase as part of the offer.
As an official artist, we were we were able to
produce a number of showcases so you could be seen
by the industry and really importantly, was creating networking events
that were going to put your managers in front of
(08:03):
key labels or key promoters or key festivals. So, I mean,
there are thousands of examples of success that artists have
had that we know came from introductions, from those initial, um,
emerging events. But I think over the years it's it's
been going for 15 years now. And there's, you know,
if you look at artists like flume, Vance Joy, Rufus
(08:24):
Du Sol, King Gizzard, um, Courtney Barnett, all of their
very first shows were on those those stages.
S2 (08:31):
Okay. How much can you strategize to get success internationally,
and how much is it just down to having the
right song that becomes a hit at the right time?
S3 (08:40):
It's look, without question, the song has to play such
an important role. I think, you know, the valuing of
the IP and the creation of the song needs constant development,
and it really You're not going to go too far
without great songs, but there's a lot that goes around it.
And I think what Australian artists need to understand and
what they're dealing with is they are competing globally. You know,
(09:02):
it used to be that it would be whatever Australian
releases were out that week, you'd be up against those acts.
And then, you know, when you're sort of building territory
by territory, you know, before streaming, you're only competing with
what's being released in Australia now. From the minute you
release your first song, you're global, you're exporting from the
first song you have on Spotify and you're competing with.
(09:25):
I think the statistic was that in every single day now,
like the 120,000 songs that are released, was the total
amount released in the year 1989. So you're looking at
43 million tracks a year. So the idea of how
you compete, how you break through, it's a really big question.
S2 (09:45):
That's a terrifying number.
S3 (09:46):
It is a terrifying number, I agree.
S2 (09:48):
What about young artists? When they start out, they probably think,
all right, this is a form of self-expression. I want
to create something. I want to play music that a
certain group of people respond to. Do they have to
think internationally? Wouldn't it be enough for them just to
have local success?
S3 (10:07):
I don't think look, I think if you're doing it
just for your own self enjoyment and a hobbyist, then
that's one thing. But if we're really talking in terms
of artists that are wanting to break. You can no
longer build or sustain a career domestically. It's just it's
not physically possible. It used to be that you would
record an album, and then you would go out and
(10:30):
tour to drive sales to the record. You were earning
money from every record sale and it was a physical product.
And so the revenue was at a certain level. Now
we've got a situation that's almost 180 degree change, where
people are constantly putting out singles content. It might not
even be a single different kinds of content to grab
(10:50):
attention to, then drive you to a show. So that
entire idea has changed entirely. Do you know what I mean?
So yeah, like you're constantly just you constantly have to
be on your social media releasing so people know who
you are. But the revenue that's coming in from streaming
is really different to what it was in physical sales.
(11:13):
So it's taking longer to earn the revenue, but you
have to have that presence on the socials. It does
seem to have that impact.
S2 (11:20):
It does seem like TikTok has a particular influence on
artists at the moment. Do they have to be on TikTok?
S3 (11:25):
Look, I think artists really the role of an artist
has changed so much. You know, it's the simple idea
that you can write songs and create. Music is a
skill unto itself, and that's amazing. And that should be
celebrated and invested in. It's now then artists really do
need to take, you know, a lot of responsibility for
creating this online presence and profile, because that's the world
(11:48):
they're living in. I don't think every artist should be
on every platform. I think that's crazy. And we need
to really be mindful of mental health and the pressures
that that puts on young artists. But I think, you know,
it's about testing them out and finding where your audience
are and finding what's going to work for you. The
frequency that will work for you. But, you know, if
you really look at the acts that are, you know,
(12:10):
we're not talking established acts that have been able to
harness already existing audiences. Brand new acts that are starting out.
It really is those that have been able to build
these international audiences through online platforms that are having the
most success.
S2 (12:25):
Splendour in the grass is the latest music festival to
either be paused or cancelled. Why do you think festivals
are struggling so much and is this a permanent condition?
S3 (12:36):
Look, I don't think it's permanent. I think at Music
Australia and with the Creative Australia research team, we've now
released two big key pieces of research soundcheck one and
soundcheck two. Really looking at what are these drivers and
where are the issues? Obviously cost of living. You know,
that's not unique to the music industry, but it really
and truly has had a huge impact on festivals. Definitely
(12:57):
seeing the impacts of insurance. And we're doing a third
piece of research into what could a mutuals look like
for the industry. But we're also.
S2 (13:06):
Seeing another form of a better form of insurance.
S3 (13:08):
Possibly. Yeah. Whether it's going to work, we don't know yet.
It's a little bit of a feasibility study, but we're
certainly really mindful of that area for festival promoters. Um,
the other thing, you know, coming out of the pandemic
years is this audience behavior and changes in ticket buying
and how they're holding off. You know, people are really
waiting to the last minute to buy tickets. Now, that's
(13:29):
really hard when you're managing a festival and you need
a certain amount to break even before you call it.
So I think there's definitely things that we've we've seen,
and I think we're starting to see I mean, you know,
laneway has sold out beyond the Valley just did some
of its biggest numbers today. Party in the park. Party
in the paddocks gearing up really well. Like they're a
(13:50):
really great success. Stories still happening and we've seen over
time there's been, you know, swings and roundabouts with festivals
like the Big Day Out like Future like that, that
are here and then for various changes and reasons they're not.
But I think in many ways, when you look at
the splendour in the grass, it does come back to
the way people are listening and that personification of listening.
(14:12):
So where we used to have, you know, broadcast and
everyone was listening to triple J, so if you did
a triple J type lineup, everyone was hearing it. We've
got a lot more narrowcasting where people are listening to podcasts,
they're listening, you know, on their phone and they're listening
to what they want when they want it on demand.
You know, I think for young people now, the idea
of radio, they're going to want like, why are they
(14:34):
waiting around hoping that their favourite song comes on when
they can just listen? But what comes with that? Personalised
listening is also a lot of passive listening, and also
algorithms that are not necessarily Putting Australian artists front and
centre there.
S2 (15:04):
Last year there were just five Australian songs in Aria's
top 100, and we've had just had the lowest number
of Australian artists in the hottest 100 since 1996. How
worried should we be by those dismal numbers?
S3 (15:15):
Yeah, I think it's a real worry, and I think
we've got a lot of, um, dichotomy going on. Australia
as a music market is still the 10th biggest music
market in the world. We just had the live performance
Australia results showed that we have reached record highs in
terms of ticket buying and audience numbers, and a lot
of that is driven by the growth of contemporary music.
(15:37):
So there's no question at all about the appetite for
music by Australians. It's just how much of it is
Australian music? And clearly, Really. Clearly, those results on the
Aria charts and on the triple J 100 are showing
that we're not listening to our own. There was a
report done by a company called Luminate and that shows
(15:57):
that Australian. So this is of the top 10,000 artists.
What are Australians listening to? 62% is US artists from
the US. A little over 16 is from the UK,
and Australian music listened to by Australians comes in third
at 9.2%. That is not great. No matter how you
(16:18):
look at that now, I can't believe that that's a
deliberate choice. I don't believe it's intentional. I just think
it's where we find ourselves. But I also think it
means there's a lot of room for growth and a
lot of new room to be able to shift that.
And I and I think it's, um. Yeah, it's really
fascinating because you look at the Australian artists, it's not
(16:40):
the quality of the product, you know, commercially and critically,
the success Australians are Australians are having internationally is evident.
You look at APRA Amcos, which report on the royalties
and the revenue generated from the song, and that's at
an all time high for the international. The amount of
Australian artists touring internationally has never been higher, and Spotify
(17:00):
put out a report. They've done it for the last
two years called Loud and Clear, and that talks about 80%
of the revenue coming in on Spotify for Australian artists
is from overseas. So you can't question the product. The
product is there. You know, I think it was last week,
the Brit Awards like really the biggest awards for the British.
We had four Australians, so both two for international artists
(17:23):
of the year in Confidence Man and Amyl and the sniffers.
And both Kevin Parker and Sonny Fodera have been nominated
for song of the year. That's huge, you know? So
it's a really fascinating phenomena. I think, um, there's a
term that people are talking about called glocalization, and this
idea that previously we could take Australian music and Western
(17:46):
music was, you know, going globally into different countries. What
we've got now as a result of streaming increases, and
particularly in some of the emerging markets, is they're going
to consume their own. And this is happening when it's
non Australian when it's non English. So if you can
you can see the numbers just growing and growing and growing.
Brazilians are listening to Brazilian German listening to Germany where
(18:09):
that's not happening are in Australia, in New Zealand, in Canada,
in Ireland. And I think for all of those English
speaking countries, you're not getting the benefit of a local
language driver when the growth in the streaming numbers increasing. Instead,
what we're getting is that when people are listening to
really big albums that are coming out by Charli XCX and,
(18:32):
you know, Chappell, Roan and you know, Billie Eilish, it
then continues to listen and they'll be served up the
next US product.
S2 (18:41):
By the algorithm. So we're at the mercy of the.
S3 (18:44):
Algorithm, I think. Yeah, I think there is definitely that.
And I do think it needs to be looked at.
But I also think, you know, those, um, the people,
the Australian based people working for those companies are doing
some really terrific initiatives driving Australian music. And and on
the one hand, globally, what we're doing globally is because
of the DSPs. So it's it's this really interesting when
(19:07):
people talk about, oh, you know, there's not enough on
the triple J hottest 100 or there's not. It's absolutely facts.
There's no denying that, that there are so many multi-faceted
and complex reasons as to why. And there's not one
silver bullet to fix it either. So when Music Australia
looks at our investments and where we're trying to, um,
(19:27):
you know, really strategically look at our, our way of
supporting artists, it has to be across that whole ecology.
S2 (19:34):
Okay. So what direct measures can Music Australia do to
help young Australian artists in particular?
S3 (19:41):
Yeah. Well, I guess you know the things when I
look at what we do, there's ten areas of investment.
We look in artist development, we look at industry development. Absolutely.
Market development. So everything from your festivals and grassroots through
to export also what's happening on screen. So music in film,
music in gaming. Um, we also looking at music education.
(20:04):
We absolutely have to look at, you know, how do
you get not only the learning of the instruments like
Yamaha and you know my brother and I, but what
about learning how to record a song, learning how to
write a song. So getting music back into the curriculum
and having that really start to allow audiences as well,
audience development appreciation, um, we need to look at again,
(20:27):
we're doing a lot of research to try and really
tease out where people can direct investments and the industry themselves,
but I think a big part of our measures is
going to start to be evaluating what impact has the
money we've put into export had, so we've only been
making investments. It's not even 12 months now. Um, in
(20:47):
terms of how we can start to see those results.
But we've got people at the ready to start to
look at, um, you know, what kind of impact will
it have? What kind of growth will it have? Um,
we've made investments most recently into 23 record labels. So
they're really at the coalface of investing in Australian talent, recording,
you know, producing, helping with all the content delivery. Um, but.
S2 (21:10):
They if you give them a grant, they will look
for their own Australian artists or you.
S3 (21:14):
Tell them it's only for Australian artists. So they have
to invest in Australian artists with that.
S2 (21:19):
Um, will you steer them towards particular artists or will
they have to?
S3 (21:22):
No, not at all. No. And in terms of, you know,
you know, certainly the ministers at arm's distance to any
of that selection. I'm fortunate that Music Australia is based
within Creative Australia that has incredibly robust assessing processes. So
we use industry advisers. So they rank all of the,
you know, whether it's an export category or otherwise. And
(21:43):
then we sit around and we have a meeting, a
full day meeting, really looking at, you know, who they
want to support and why. They'll give us the best
possible advice. And then we'll take it from there.
S2 (21:52):
The good news is we still do have brilliant talents emerging.
We've got, um, you know, just to name a few.
G Flip and Royal Lotus and the Kid Laroi. Where
will the next generation of young emerging artists come from?
S3 (22:08):
I think they're going to come from everywhere. Look, I
think our First Nation talent is incredible. And I think,
you know, certainly in hip hop and in country and,
you know, the stories, the stories that they're telling are
so unique. So for them to, you know, hone a
craft and really be able to tell, you know, an
incredible story. Um, well, I mean, they're coming from all
(22:29):
corners of Australia. There's, you know, I think more and
more people, you know, I think part of that statistic
around the 120,000 songs being released today, it's something like
75 million music creators, and that's going to double by
the year 2030. So, you know, they're coming, people. You know,
the access to making music is even easier. You know,
people are able to use AI in innovative ways. We
(22:51):
definitely need to look at how AI is being used
with existing copyrighted music. That's a whole other area that
I think we really need to pay attention to before
it is too soon. And I think, um, it's something
that's going to change the shape of all forms of media,
you know, not not just music. Um, but. Yeah, look,
(23:11):
I talent's not the problem. Every, every day you hear
something new and exciting.
S2 (23:17):
Okay. Uh, the triple J hottest 100 was dominated by
young women who are singer songwriters from overseas. Does that
tell us something about the trends permanently, or is that
and and the notion of who listens to things? Or
is it just a, a nature of how the market
shifts from say.
S3 (23:37):
Yeah, it's a bit, It's a bit. I mean, trends
by definition, I think are constantly changing. I think what's
interesting with the solo artists, I would suggest that in
more recent years there's more and more solo artists. And
if you look at just at a local scenario, it's
because the cost of touring a band is a lot
of money. You know, even the idea of, you know,
(23:59):
every street on a corner had a garage band. These
were the bands that were living in the city and
the inner cities of Brunswick and Newtown. That's not happening anymore.
They can't afford to live in the city. So I
think when you when people are starting out and a
lot of the music that they're, you know, able to
make in their bedroom isn't with 5 or 6 people,
you know, it's very much they're doing it. So there's
(24:20):
a lot more producers. There's a lot more, you know,
performing to track. And the way people are listening to music,
they're used to that. They're used to digital creation. And
it's not all about, you know, seven live instruments. So
I think that's probably had a little bit of an
impact on it. I know of the, you 2.4 million
voters in the triple J hottest, 162% were women that voted.
(24:44):
So I don't know exactly what that tells you, but,
you know, it could really reflect the type of artist
that did well. And I think we saw that with
with a number of the certainly, you know, with both
Billie Eilish and, um, Charli XCX getting, you know, eight
songs apiece.
S2 (25:01):
On.
S3 (25:01):
Top. Yeah.
S2 (25:02):
Yeah. Mhm. Uh, there's been a big switch obviously to
country music in the States. Uh, do we cater for
that market well enough? And if we don't how do
we do it.
S3 (25:11):
I think look I think country here, you know, there
were a lot of people up in Tamworth last week, uh,
is growing and growing. Um, the Luminate data shows that
in terms of Australian growth in country, not only consuming
international artists, but also local artists, you know, I think
Luke Combs is playing out at Acorn on Friday. There
(25:32):
is a real appetite for country music. The country music
festival that happens is just selling out year on year. Um,
and then I think we are seeing more and more
Australian artists really, you know, growing in that field as well.
S2 (25:45):
Okay. Do you think Australia, uh, is over, on top
of all the sort of different styles of music that
appeal to people both here and overseas? Um, you know, uh, rap, uh,
country sort of singer songwriter stuff, hard rock, all of
those things. Do you think we have enough talent across
all of these different areas?
S3 (26:05):
Yeah, I do, I really do. I mean, we have
the privilege of, you know, seeing all the artists that
are applying for export grants. And that really is a
really good split across different genres. And I think, you know,
for a long time, I mean, Australian heavy metal artists like,
you know, the really heavy rock stuff has for a
long time batted above its weight over, you know, in
(26:26):
Europe and are constantly building networks and going back and
forth with no one here knowing what's going on. Um,
so yeah, look, I do and I think it used
to be that you would have to build a career
in Australia and you'd, you know, have to tour the
country X amount of times and release and, you know, get,
get a certain amount of airplay. But as I said before,
(26:46):
you are exporting from the first single you release, and
what you're listening to is so universal and global. Like,
you're really not carving out territories like you used to
anymore either. So I think for a lot of the
new Australian artists, you know, coming through, they're listening and
influenced by, you know, music from everywhere.
S2 (27:05):
Yeah, we see a lot of nostalgia at play when
it comes to buying concert tickets in particular, and probably even, uh,
you know, streaming as well. Is that a good thing
or a bad thing?
S3 (27:16):
Oh, look, I'm going to just say it's a thing.
You know, you can't. I think, you know, we really
leant into nostalgia during the pandemic. And look, let's be fair,
those artists were fantastic. You know, when you look at
Spiderbait and Regurgitator and you am I and something for
Kate and they're all still going, you know, none of
them have stopped. They've just kept going. They've, you know,
(27:37):
in some instances got better. Um, so I think it's
a little bit of a revival for those acts because
they weren't able to export in the same way. So
they've still got these really massive Australian fan bases that
they've been able to, you know, draw on. And I
think a lot of the 90s acts that are touring
and the small one day festivals they put together are
(27:57):
all doing extremely well. What you'd like to see is,
you know, if those people going to those shows could
then also start, you know, seeking out and hunting new
acts as well.
S2 (28:08):
If I'm a young artist listening to this Milli and
I hear talk about, you know, export grants and, uh,
need to know more about the business and be educated
in different ways. I might be a little intimidated because
this is not how I see my career evolving. What
advice do you have for people like that?
S3 (28:26):
I think the thing is, if you can, don't be intimidated.
There are a lot of good people working in different
organizations that whose entire role is there to help? I
think in every single state and territory, there's a music office.
So it's the gaming network. So there's music, New South
Wales music, Queensland music, Tas music NT. I would start
(28:46):
by getting involved with what they've got going on locally.
So whether they're putting on local events where you can
learn more or networking opportunities. A lot of it is
just learning and listening to people that have come before,
you know, it's not an easy, um, thing to to
just suddenly get like, I reckon, coming through. I had
to be explained publishing, music publishing where you've got the
(29:11):
copyright in the song and the copyright in the sound
recording at least 60 times before I understood it. But
for a young artist, they're your two greatest source of
revenue outside of live music. So if you don't understand
how they work and who manages them and how they
can be exploited for good, then it's going to be
really hard. So it's it's definitely you want them to
(29:34):
love it and have their passion for music. And you know,
so much of music is about telling a story and identity.
And we want Australian stories out there. We want Australian
stories to to travel the world. But you can't you
can't not understand. It's a business. As an artist, you
are running a small business. You will ultimately go on
to an employer manager. You will employ a booking agent,
(29:55):
you will engage a record label. They are all working
for you. And if you don't have the necessary skills,
financial literacy, you know, planning, understanding the media depth and
all the different socials and what you need to do online,
it's going to be really hard for you to succeed.
S2 (30:13):
The blockbuster of blockbusters in music was Taylor Swift's Eras
Tour 149 shows, 53 cities, five continents grossed more than
2.2 billion USD. It's, um. She was such a beloved
figure when she was on that tour. She still is,
of course. But tell us what we can learn from
(30:33):
the success and maybe the relationship between artists and their
fans from that tour.
S3 (30:38):
Well, I think that's it. You've just summed it up
with artists and their fans. I think Taylor, from a really,
really early age understood that whilst you've got all these
mechanics in the ecosystem that I've been referring to, ultimately
there's no stronger or more powerful role than that role
that you can have and that relationship and engagement you
can have with your fan. So I think she absolutely
(30:59):
brought that to the forefront in a way no one understood.
You know, we've seen it now with Fred again, you know,
he really has has built a fan engagement through discord.
And you're seeing more and more artists are taking themselves
off platforms owned by others and really bringing people back
to their own websites and their own newsletters. So I
(31:22):
think Dermot Kennedy was another one. James Taylor. It is changing.
People are really understanding that if you have that relationship
with your fan and it can't just be, oh, I've
got a CD out, I'm on tour. It can't just
be this. You're speaking at them, telling them what you've got.
It's about how do you bring them into the conversation?
(31:44):
How do you have that constant.
S2 (31:45):
Respect that works for both people, too, because it sort
of helps artists go on when they're facing knockbacks or
something doesn't work, or a tour falls over or something
like that. The support of bands. Bands of fans, the
support of fans of bands can help and artists can
help them.
S3 (32:02):
Yeah, I think look locally. I think G Flip and
Troye Sivan are really good examples of that. They really
they absolutely know their audience and they, you know, I'm
pretty sure I heard with G flip, um, they'd been
a fan maybe of me, of Meg Mac and, you know,
as a younger artist themselves received a response from a
(32:23):
DM and it really stuck with them that, oh, this
meant so much to me as a fan. I'm going
to do that for my audiences. And, you know, the
amount of time G will spend engaging, you know, one
on one and commenting, like just taking the time, waking
up every day and responding to comments. Okay. It's not
what people probably think they're signing up for in the
(32:45):
music business, but boy, does that make a difference. You know.
S2 (32:48):
Uh, we've talked a lot about the problems facing Australian
music for young artists who are listening, or even artists
who are in the middle stages of their career. Tell
us why they should be optimistic.
S3 (33:01):
I think we've never had the funding that we've had
before in contemporary music, and it's still really, really early days.
So the announcement from the federal government in January 23rd
was for 69 million for the creation of Music Australia Sound,
New South Wales, which is similarly supporting New South Wales artists,
has just been set up. We last week WA announced
(33:25):
a contemporary music package. You know, there are more people
actively with resources than there ever has been. I think
we've just got to start to see that start to
play out and trickle through. Um, and I still think
we're making really great music, and I still think, you know,
now that we've had time and resources to look at
the research, the research that we'll have coming out in
(33:46):
March and then again in April and June really is
going to start to unpack some of this. You know
what we're looking at discovery. We're looking at consumption and engagement.
You know, having that data and really getting deep into it.
How do we then look at campaigns that will, you know,
ultimately we need more Australians consuming Australian music. And I
(34:08):
would love for anyone listening to, you know, listen more,
dig deeper. And and you don't have to, you know,
we'd love you to go and buy CDs, but even
listening more will make such a difference.
S2 (34:19):
Okay, everyone who loves Australian music wishes you every success, Millie.
So thanks for talking to us today.
S3 (34:24):
Thanks.
S1 (34:31):
That was Music Australia boss Millie Millgate being interviewed by
Garry Maddox on the latest Good Weekend talks. If you
enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment
wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for
more compelling conversations. Coming soon, we'll chat with journalist Peter
Greste and the actor Richard Roxburgh, who's playing him in
(34:53):
the upcoming film The Correspondent. Good Weekend Talks is brought
to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism. Search,
subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age? This episode of
Good Weekend Talks is produced by Kai Wong. Editing from
(35:13):
Conrad Marshall. Tom McKendrick is head of audio and Katrina
Strickland is the editor of Good Weekend.
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