March 25, 2025 • 21 mins
Would you know if a friend or family member was having money trouble? If they asked for help, would you do it? Join Canna Campbell - a financial planner for 20 years - and Fear & Greed's Michael Thompson as they look at how to recognise the signs of financial distress, and how to help a friend or loved one in a meaningful way, without putting your own financial security at risk.
Need help? Visit the National Debt Helpline or call them on 1800 007 007.
The information in this podcast is general in nature and does not take into account your personal circumstances, financial needs or objectives. Before acting on any information, you should consider the appropriateness of it and the relevant product having regard to your objectives, financial situation and needs. In particular, you should seek independent financial advice and read the relevant Product Disclosure Statement or other offer document prior to acquiring any financial product.
Canna Campbell is a Corporate Authorised Representative and Corporate Credit Representative of Wealthstream Financial Group Pty Ltd ABN 35 152 803 113 Australian Financial Services Licensee AFSL 412079.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to How Do They Afford That, The podcast that
peaks into the financial lives of everyday Australians. I'm Michael Thompson.
I'm an author and the co host of the podcast
Fear and Greed Business News and as always, I'm with
Canna Campbell, financial planner and founder of Sugar mam A TV,
the financial literacy platform that you find just about everywhere
that you can consume content podcasts like this one and
Instagram and threads and TikTok and everywhere all over the place.
(00:23):
Hello Canna, Hello. Can a serious topic today. It's actually
a genuinely serious one and it's one that can be
a little bit delicate at times. We're talking about what
to do when you notice that somebody is in financial trouble.
It might be a friend, it might be a family member,
it might be somebody that you work with. And they
might not have actually necessarily have confided in you that
(00:45):
they are having trouble, but you might have seen some
of the signs that they are struggling.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Or even intuitively pick something up.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, yeah, yeah, just comments that they've made or something
like that. So the question is kind of do you
do anything, how much do you do, how do you
go about it? So there's a fair bit in this,
and as I say, a delicate one. Can we start
with the warning signs, assuming that someone doesn't just come
straight out to you and say, Hey, I'm in trouble.
I haven't got enough money, I haven't got like I
(01:13):
can't afford to pay my rent or something. What are
some of the warning signs that someone that you know
is in financial trouble?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, first of all, some signs can be quite subtle.
Obviously some are quite obvious. So the classic one is
changes in spending habits, so suddenly going becoming incredibly frugal,
or even the opposite, actually becoming quite squndalous and trying
to sort of keep up with the joneses.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh wow, that which there makes a problem so much worse, right.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Exactly just compounds. And then a classic one that I
see quite a bit is people avoiding social situations, so
they'll pull out last minute, or they'll perhaps turn up late,
So turn up late to the restaurant so that you
know when everyone's finishing their meal or just having dessert,
so that they only order a dessert. Oh they'll say, oh, look,
(02:01):
I'm going to drive so I'm not drinking at the moment,
which of course is responsible and there's nothing wrong with that,
but they will sort of delicately tiptoe around the problem
at heart. And then obviously things like having to always
borrow money, so asking for small loans out of the blue,
and you're seeing that happening maybe on a regular basis,
or you see them using their credit card to buy
(02:23):
things all the time that you know isn't necessarily within
their budget, or always using buy now, pay later. And
then there's also the physical appearance, so this look of
stress and anxiety. You can actually sometimes see that in
people's face. They just look worried, they look worn out,
they look stressed, and you know they might be quite
short fused. They could be you know, looking like they're
(02:45):
stressed about bills, or they could be quite irritable, and
you know, this is one of the things about bearing
their head in the sand. And then of course skipping payments,
so completely ignoring any of their financial responsibilities or obligations.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
There's a lot in all of that, but it's actually
that's really quite heartbreaking, isn't it. Particularly I think the
one where they change their behavior where someone is they're
pulling out of they're not seeing their friends because they
can't afford to spend money, or they turn up late
to things to avoid kind of the meal or not drinking.
That it almost feels quite shameful, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And there's nothing wrong with saying, look, I want to
type bart it, or we've been hit with an expense.
And that's the other thing to point out. Because someone's
in trouble financially, people should never assume it's because of
something they've done that's their own fault. Sometimes it's just
a bit of just unfortunate bad luck.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I remember doing that once when this is a few
years ago, and meeting up with a group of friends
and the suggestion had been made, I will go to
this restaurant, and I know it was a very very
very expensive restaurant. And I actually messaged them separately and
I was thought, you know what, I'm not going to
kind of pull out or hide. I said, look at them,
(04:00):
I can't afford it. Things are just a little bit
tight at the moment, I said, I just don't have
it in the budget to go to this restaurant, knowing
that it would be a couple one hundred dollars per
person to go to this place, and I just said, look,
I can't afford it right now. And that person was
like entirely accommodating. They said, actually, you're right, it is
a lot of money, and no one has kind of
(04:21):
spare money at the moment. Let's find somewhere else and
we did.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Great, you broke the ice.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, absolutely, And I was just like, and I think
that more than anything. Just told me that in so
many cases, honesty is actually the best policy, and people
will understand if you are honest.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You create a safe space for other people. Then to
step up and say, actually, you know what, I'm the
same boat, and this is an expensive restaurant. Maybe it's
something that should be held off for a special occasion only.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Perhaps, Yeah, okay, So that's like, these are the signs.
These are the warning signs. If you see this happening,
what are you saying to them? And perhaps not kind
of just coming out and saying it, What are you
saying to them? Are you actually broaching the topic with.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Look, you've got to start with empathy and something nice,
you know, complete and absolute care and compassion, and remember
what is your objective here? It is to help that
particular person so instead of saying, hey, I noticed you
look stressed and you're struggling right now or you can't
afford to pay that, perhaps something that's more gentle, like hey,
I've been thinking about you, like how are things going,
(05:22):
Or when you know that you're about to see someone,
send a message and say, hey, I'm so excited about
seeing Hey, I'm so excited about knowing that we're going
to catch up and see each other. You know, I
can't wait to hear what you've been up to. So
you really make that person feel safe and secure and
most importantly respected, So you know, perhaps you start to
share your own experiences where there was a moment in
(05:45):
your life where you were facing financial stress before, so
you can make it really safe, in a non judgmental
space for that person to open up and feel less alone.
And the other thing I would suggest is asking open
ended questions rather than just bombarding someone with advice, So
things like you know, what can I do that might
help you right now? Or is there anything that you
(06:07):
can think of that would actually help reduce the stress
for you? Instead of saying you should do this, or
you must do that, or you need to do that.
You know this is where you can just come with
a completely different I guess energy and just come from
a really kind, compassionate, understanding place, so that person does
feel safe and they feel safe to open up and
to download.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So really it's about not making them feel judged. It
is about not making them feel embarrassed about it. It
is making them feel like they have got someone that
they can confide in.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Exactly, okay. And also listen, you know some people, some women,
maybe they just need to like vent or download, and
they don't actually want a solution because they're already working
on fixing the problem themselves. They just want to be
able to share what's going on and how they're feeling
and how it's impacting them right now, so they're not
actually asking for help necessarily. And another great question I
(06:59):
think is really important is to ask them what are
they doing to help themselves? You know, if they want
any other ideas or tips or tricks that they might
have themselves that could help that person get through this situation, because,
as I said, sometimes in situations, people need to figure
things out themselves. And you know, it sounds harsh, but
that's when you figure things out yourself, that's sometimes where
(07:20):
the best growth and you learn and gain the most
amoutter of wisdom and you don't repeat that pattern again.
So sometimes part of helping is actually stepping back and
supporting them from the sidelines.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, should you always try to help? Like? Should you?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Like?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I know that that is kind of helping, but stepping
back right and making them know that the support is
there if they need it. But also just kind of
standing back and allowing someone perhaps to kind of work
their own way through it. But should you always do
something or are their circumstances perhaps where it's just best
to stay out of it?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And look, I know this is actually quite a delicate
and tricky.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
One because what I face all the time with people
around me because obviously I'm a financial planner, and I
can sit and see things, you know, professionally and personally,
and I have to pick and choose when I you know,
if it's appropriate for me to say something or not
at all. But look, this is my from personal experience
and professional experience. I really believe that you can't actually
(08:26):
help someone who isn't willing to help themselves, because there
are sometimes people in different phases of their lives that
actually like to stay in a place where they are
a victim. Being a victim feels comfortable. They don't know
anything else but that. However, that definitely does not mean
you don't support or encourage them or even disrespect them
in any way whatsoever. Everyone has their own personal wake
(08:50):
up call, and sometimes your rock bottom where you think
all right, enough's enough is very different to what that
other person's rock bottom is, where enough's enough, and that
moment will come, but it will come at the time
that's right for that person. So you definitely can't be
necessary that person that pulls them out all the time
because then become codependent. But you can definitely be the
(09:13):
person that, as I said, sits on the sidelines and
is the first person to cheer them the moment that
time has come where they go, all right, I get
what you've been saying, enough's enough. I can't live my
life like this. I deserve better. I'm willing to do
the work and help myself. Can you now help me?
So we really need to respect that time, depending obviously
(09:35):
how serious it is.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Okay, so there's clearly no kind of one set solution
here is basing it entirely on the relationship that you
have with that person, the details of their circumstances, how
open they seem to be to receiving help, and just
what you know about them as to what their personality
is like and how much they will need from someone
else and how much they're capable of doing themselves. How
(09:58):
then do you make sure that you're offer of support
if you are talking to them, is actually practical rather
than just well meaning, Because the well meaning side of
it is good just for them to know that you're there, right,
But how do you actually physically help, physically help when
it's you don't just want it to be kind of
empty platitudes like oh it'll get better or yeah, you're okay,
(10:20):
you've got this, like it's nice, but it's not going
to actually do anything.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Right of course, So obviously there's practical things, so you
can help to do a budget, say to that person, look,
why don't we sit down together and do your budget?
Or why didn't I come with you to see a
financial counselor so that you've actually doing the work with them,
holding their hand along the.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Way, And that kind of helps in a number of ways.
If you offer to go and see someone with them,
they've got emotional support they've got kind of someone almost
holding them accountable in a way, kind of making sure
that they get there and don't cancel that kind of
appointment at the last minute. That would be a very,
very kind of powerful thing to do.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And also you've got another set of ears in the
room because you know the counselor or you know that
budgeting experience. There might be a tip that gets missed
by person who needs to help the most, and then
they can gently remind them, Hey, don't forget that. You
know that counselor said, this is very common. You know
this is a great strategy to use. So it is
again it's coming back to that place of care and compassion.
(11:20):
But obviously you've got to be mindful not overstepping the mark.
Obviously you can't be giving superannuation advice to someone who's
really swiss about retirement. You need to understand a fay.
That's probably where a professional steps in and you're offering
guidance here, not control. So you don't want to be
taking over their finances for multiple reasons. But this is
all about helping them help themselves as well and having
(11:41):
boundaries in place. You know, when they're ready to talk
your talk, but if you get to a point where
they're exhausted emotionally, mentally, even financially, that you know, Okay,
all right, We're going to park this conversation for a while.
And a big one I would say here as well,
from a practical point of view, is protecting yourself.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I want to get to that in the moment as well,
about kind of how you make sure those boundaries are
in place to protect you as well, and also to
talk about what happens if the person that you're speaking
with that you have identified as needing some help is
resistant to help and you are worried that their situation
is just going to get worse and worse and potentially
(12:20):
they are at risk. So there's still a bit to cover.
We'll take a quick break and come back with more.
Can We are talking about how to help somebody who
is in trouble, in financial trouble, and we talked about
the importance of approaching it from a really supportive place,
that it is all about having empathy and it is
(12:41):
about making sure that person doesn't feel judged and just
feel supported. What happens though, if they don't want help,
or if they deny that they are having issues because
there is an element of embarrassment absolutely in this. What
if they deny that there's a problem, do you just
drop it?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Or what's worse, they you try and help them and
they throw it back in your face. Well, they don't
actually follow what you suggested at all and go down
a completely different path that actually causes more damage. Yes, look,
it is really hard, and this is where you've got
to protect yourself. I had a recent situation where someone
very close to me was in a lot of financial
trouble and they came to me and confided to me,
(13:21):
and you know, I spent hours going through a list
of all the different things they could do to help
fix the situation, and did the budget with them, did
some goals with them to spoke about their mindset. And
I spent hours and hours and hours, and I pulled
all these special strings for this particular person so that
they had this opportunity to make some extra cash and
quite a bit of extra cash. And they did all
(13:43):
those things, but then they went and bought a whole
new wardrobe with all that money instead of actually dealing
with the actual heart of the financial problem. Now that
was really hard. There was such a mix of emotions there.
I was angry, I was frustrated, I felt disrespected. Then
I felt really sad becuse I could see this situation
that was the exact problem at the first place as
to why this person was in this situation. So you've
(14:05):
got to know when to pull back and when to say,
all right, I'm not of any help here. This person
hasn't actually reached their rock bottom. So this is where
you really need to respect their decision, keep the door open,
let them know that you are still there to help.
But you also just need to move on with your life.
And you know, I really think there's a lot of
power in leading by example. You don't necessarily need to
(14:28):
say you should do this, or I said this is
a great idea. You can sometimes you know, silence and success.
You just get on and do your thing and mention now, yes,
you know, I'm working on this financial goal right now,
or I've managed to save up this much money so far,
or I've finally paid off that credit card. Just lead
by example, and you just peppering did all the things
that you've managed to do and how it feels, and
(14:50):
just talk about that and just lead by example. Over time,
that person may wake up, But you can't help everyone.
And that's what I've really had to realize as well,
as a finance planner who's so passionate about financial illness.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Onto a rather sticky situation now, and that is family
helping family or really close friends. Are there circumstances where
you would ever give or lend money to people in
order to help them through a situation or is this
just too kind of high risk that you can end
(15:24):
up kind of getting dragged into their financial mess as well?
And I suppose if you do do it, how do
you do it in a way that protects you again
putting up these boundaries and trying to protect your own
situation while helping them.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Personally, I would always help someone I cut and Tom
and I both like that, and we've actually agreed that
there are certain people in our lives that we will
always find a way to help them if it got
to that situation. And so if you do decide to
do it, there are a couple of I guess agreed
rules that you must have in place beforehand. Is Number
one is you never lend more money than you can't
afford to lose. So if you almost need to expect
(16:00):
going to get that back, and if you do, that's wonderful.
The other thing is, obviously, if you're in a relationship,
you've got to check with your partner that you're both
on the same page and you agree on the limit,
you reagree on the terms, and that there are no
more loans beyond that particular point. So there are some
firm boundaries that you've communicated upfront and you've communicated to
that particular person. If you lend money, also consider getting
(16:22):
it written down to avoid any misunderstandings as to you
know whether there's interest paid, or whether how long that
money has to be paid back, or you know whether
it can be paid in certain chunks perhaps, and.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
To make it abundantly clear that it is in fact
alone and not a gift exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And at the end of the day, if you can't
lend it, because it's going to put you at financial jeopardy,
explain that back to the person to say, look, I
would love to help you, but we're actually in a
really tight situation ourselves. So by us helping you out,
we're actually going to be you know, it's going to
mean that we're going to default on this and that,
and then that's going to happen, you know, certain repercussions,
but also never forget you know, you can help someone
not necessarily by throwing money at the problem. You know,
(16:59):
it's that on monetary help can sometimes that actually be
of greater value, you know, connecting them with resources like
the National Deadline or for example, you know CBA's Next
Chapter program, which is amazing for people who are suffering
from you know, financial abuse. So there are lots of
different ways you can actually help people without giving them money.
And you know, like I know for times in my
(17:19):
lives where my friends have sent each other quotes or
funny means to help improve their mood as they're going
through a particular challenging time. You know, you can't pour
from an empty cup. So remember that, so that you
have that firm boundary for your own protection when it
comes to helping people.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And I suppose if the person who is approaching you
is a family member, it does add a certain emotional
element to it, Yeah, which you again need to navigate carefully.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Right, you feel so much more obliged to help a
family member, Well, I certainly do think most than a friend.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, And so in terms of then of you mentioned
a couple of results there, and it's probably a good
place to kind of finish up where people can get
help if they need to. And so I'll just get
you to mention those ones again. But also, is it
just a case of providing these details to someone who
needs help, or is it kind of how do you
(18:16):
kind of encourage someone to seek professional advice knowing that
a professional is unless you are the person that they're
approaching for help, a professional is probably always going to
be able to give better advice than say regular person. Right,
how do you get them to get that professional advice
without them feeling pressured?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Well, this is the problem if they're not ready to
get help themselves. I mean, you can take a horse
to the water, but you can't make it drink. So
you need to respect they may have not actually hit
that moment where they go all right, this is my
rock bottom enough, so I'm going to rebuild from here.
That moment may just have not come yet, may in
fact never come at all, and they'll just continue on
living this life. Now, we need to respect that's someone's decision.
(18:56):
They have a choice themselves. And I come back to this,
I've helped so many people who then self destructed again.
People need to learn how to help themselves and it
is the best way to learn most of the time,
not all the time, but most of the time. So
you know, you've got to have your hand on your heart.
So you've got to nowhere to support, where to listen,
(19:18):
where to show compassion, where to step in, and of
course where to just step out and sit patiently on
the sideline. So you are the first person to cheer them,
support them and encourage them the moment they say, you
know what, I'm ready to help myself.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Okay, So those resources, the National Debt Helpline is a
great one, great to start with, and look, the easiest
way to get in touch there is to go to
the website NDH dot org dot au. If you just
google National Debt Helpline, it'll come up. And there are
other resources like so many next next Chapter, through Combank
and others.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
A lot of the churches have free financial counseling as well,
so there are lots of people out there who are
willing to help you for free. And of course then
you you great podcast like this one.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, you know, you've got books.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
You can get from the library. There are lots of
online courses you can do. There are so many things
out there that are for free. They give you some
really great financial literacy to help you get out of
situation you're in, or help that person get up the
situation they're in.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah, in terms of the kind of the formal ones
like the dead help line and those will put a
few links in the show notes as well. Serious topic today,
wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
It was? But it's an important one.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I think so, And I think everyone will have experienced
this at some point, have identified somebody in their life
who is going through Look, and let's face it, there
are a lot of people going through financial trouble at
the moment because everything is just so expensive. So hopefully
there is something in here in terms of those signs
(20:47):
to watch for, the things to watch out for, and
even that very basic principle of help them do it
from a place of compassion and empathy and not judgment
and use those professional resources as the backup. And I
really liked what you said about kind of leading by
example as well, just kind of demonstrating kind of what
you're doing and people will observe that, and it might
(21:08):
be a more kind of tactful way or delicate way
of kind of navigating through, but just be there for
the people who need it around you exactly. Okay, Canna,
where do we find you? If anybody wants more information.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
The best place to get in contact with me is
at Canna Campbell Official on.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Instagram and you can hear me every day with Sean
Aylmer on Fear and Greed daily business news for people
who make their own decisions. Thank you very much for
listening to how do they are?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
For that?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Remember to hit follow on the podcast, and importantly, particularly
for this episode, if there is someone who think might
benefit from hearing it, then please send them the link
to the episode so they can have a listen. Thank
you very much for your company. Please join us again
next week
Welcome to How Do They Afford That, The podcast that
peaks into the financial lives of everyday Australians. I'm Michael Thompson.
I'm an author and the co host of the podcast
Fear and Greed Business News and as always, I'm with
Canna Campbell, financial planner and founder of Sugar mam A TV,
the financial literacy platform that you find just about everywhere
that you can consume content podcasts like this one and
Instagram and threads and TikTok and everywhere all over the place.
(00:23):
Hello Canna, Hello. Can a serious topic today. It's actually
a genuinely serious one and it's one that can be
a little bit delicate at times. We're talking about what
to do when you notice that somebody is in financial trouble.
It might be a friend, it might be a family member,
it might be somebody that you work with. And they
might not have actually necessarily have confided in you that
(00:45):
they are having trouble, but you might have seen some
of the signs that they are struggling.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Or even intuitively pick something up.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes, yeah, yeah, just comments that they've made or something
like that. So the question is kind of do you
do anything, how much do you do, how do you
go about it? So there's a fair bit in this,
and as I say, a delicate one. Can we start
with the warning signs, assuming that someone doesn't just come
straight out to you and say, Hey, I'm in trouble.
I haven't got enough money, I haven't got like I
(01:13):
can't afford to pay my rent or something. What are
some of the warning signs that someone that you know
is in financial trouble?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, first of all, some signs can be quite subtle.
Obviously some are quite obvious. So the classic one is
changes in spending habits, so suddenly going becoming incredibly frugal,
or even the opposite, actually becoming quite squndalous and trying
to sort of keep up with the joneses.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh wow, that which there makes a problem so much worse, right.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Exactly just compounds. And then a classic one that I
see quite a bit is people avoiding social situations, so
they'll pull out last minute, or they'll perhaps turn up late,
So turn up late to the restaurant so that you
know when everyone's finishing their meal or just having dessert,
so that they only order a dessert. Oh they'll say, oh, look,
(02:01):
I'm going to drive so I'm not drinking at the moment,
which of course is responsible and there's nothing wrong with that,
but they will sort of delicately tiptoe around the problem
at heart. And then obviously things like having to always
borrow money, so asking for small loans out of the blue,
and you're seeing that happening maybe on a regular basis,
or you see them using their credit card to buy
(02:23):
things all the time that you know isn't necessarily within
their budget, or always using buy now, pay later. And
then there's also the physical appearance, so this look of
stress and anxiety. You can actually sometimes see that in
people's face. They just look worried, they look worn out,
they look stressed, and you know they might be quite
short fused. They could be you know, looking like they're
(02:45):
stressed about bills, or they could be quite irritable, and
you know, this is one of the things about bearing
their head in the sand. And then of course skipping payments,
so completely ignoring any of their financial responsibilities or obligations.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
There's a lot in all of that, but it's actually
that's really quite heartbreaking, isn't it. Particularly I think the
one where they change their behavior where someone is they're
pulling out of they're not seeing their friends because they
can't afford to spend money, or they turn up late
to things to avoid kind of the meal or not drinking.
That it almost feels quite shameful, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And there's nothing wrong with saying, look, I want to
type bart it, or we've been hit with an expense.
And that's the other thing to point out. Because someone's
in trouble financially, people should never assume it's because of
something they've done that's their own fault. Sometimes it's just
a bit of just unfortunate bad luck.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I remember doing that once when this is a few
years ago, and meeting up with a group of friends
and the suggestion had been made, I will go to
this restaurant, and I know it was a very very
very expensive restaurant. And I actually messaged them separately and
I was thought, you know what, I'm not going to
kind of pull out or hide. I said, look at them,
(04:00):
I can't afford it. Things are just a little bit
tight at the moment, I said, I just don't have
it in the budget to go to this restaurant, knowing
that it would be a couple one hundred dollars per
person to go to this place, and I just said, look,
I can't afford it right now. And that person was
like entirely accommodating. They said, actually, you're right, it is
a lot of money, and no one has kind of
(04:21):
spare money at the moment. Let's find somewhere else and
we did.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Great, you broke the ice.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, absolutely, And I was just like, and I think
that more than anything. Just told me that in so
many cases, honesty is actually the best policy, and people
will understand if you are honest.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You create a safe space for other people. Then to
step up and say, actually, you know what, I'm the
same boat, and this is an expensive restaurant. Maybe it's
something that should be held off for a special occasion only.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Perhaps, Yeah, okay, So that's like, these are the signs.
These are the warning signs. If you see this happening,
what are you saying to them? And perhaps not kind
of just coming out and saying it, What are you
saying to them? Are you actually broaching the topic with.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Look, you've got to start with empathy and something nice,
you know, complete and absolute care and compassion, and remember
what is your objective here? It is to help that
particular person so instead of saying, hey, I noticed you
look stressed and you're struggling right now or you can't
afford to pay that, perhaps something that's more gentle, like hey,
I've been thinking about you, like how are things going,
(05:22):
Or when you know that you're about to see someone,
send a message and say, hey, I'm so excited about
seeing Hey, I'm so excited about knowing that we're going
to catch up and see each other. You know, I
can't wait to hear what you've been up to. So
you really make that person feel safe and secure and
most importantly respected, So you know, perhaps you start to
share your own experiences where there was a moment in
(05:45):
your life where you were facing financial stress before, so
you can make it really safe, in a non judgmental
space for that person to open up and feel less alone.
And the other thing I would suggest is asking open
ended questions rather than just bombarding someone with advice, So
things like you know, what can I do that might
help you right now? Or is there anything that you
(06:07):
can think of that would actually help reduce the stress
for you? Instead of saying you should do this, or
you must do that, or you need to do that.
You know this is where you can just come with
a completely different I guess energy and just come from
a really kind, compassionate, understanding place, so that person does
feel safe and they feel safe to open up and
to download.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So really it's about not making them feel judged. It
is about not making them feel embarrassed about it. It
is making them feel like they have got someone that
they can confide in.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Exactly, okay. And also listen, you know some people, some women,
maybe they just need to like vent or download, and
they don't actually want a solution because they're already working
on fixing the problem themselves. They just want to be
able to share what's going on and how they're feeling
and how it's impacting them right now, so they're not
actually asking for help necessarily. And another great question I
(06:59):
think is really important is to ask them what are
they doing to help themselves? You know, if they want
any other ideas or tips or tricks that they might
have themselves that could help that person get through this situation, because,
as I said, sometimes in situations, people need to figure
things out themselves. And you know, it sounds harsh, but
that's when you figure things out yourself, that's sometimes where
(07:20):
the best growth and you learn and gain the most
amoutter of wisdom and you don't repeat that pattern again.
So sometimes part of helping is actually stepping back and
supporting them from the sidelines.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, should you always try to help? Like? Should you?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Like?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I know that that is kind of helping, but stepping
back right and making them know that the support is
there if they need it. But also just kind of
standing back and allowing someone perhaps to kind of work
their own way through it. But should you always do
something or are their circumstances perhaps where it's just best
to stay out of it?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And look, I know this is actually quite a delicate
and tricky.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
One because what I face all the time with people
around me because obviously I'm a financial planner, and I
can sit and see things, you know, professionally and personally,
and I have to pick and choose when I you know,
if it's appropriate for me to say something or not
at all. But look, this is my from personal experience
and professional experience. I really believe that you can't actually
(08:26):
help someone who isn't willing to help themselves, because there
are sometimes people in different phases of their lives that
actually like to stay in a place where they are
a victim. Being a victim feels comfortable. They don't know
anything else but that. However, that definitely does not mean
you don't support or encourage them or even disrespect them
in any way whatsoever. Everyone has their own personal wake
(08:50):
up call, and sometimes your rock bottom where you think
all right, enough's enough is very different to what that
other person's rock bottom is, where enough's enough, and that
moment will come, but it will come at the time
that's right for that person. So you definitely can't be
necessary that person that pulls them out all the time
because then become codependent. But you can definitely be the
(09:13):
person that, as I said, sits on the sidelines and
is the first person to cheer them the moment that
time has come where they go, all right, I get
what you've been saying, enough's enough. I can't live my
life like this. I deserve better. I'm willing to do
the work and help myself. Can you now help me?
So we really need to respect that time, depending obviously
(09:35):
how serious it is.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Okay, so there's clearly no kind of one set solution
here is basing it entirely on the relationship that you
have with that person, the details of their circumstances, how
open they seem to be to receiving help, and just
what you know about them as to what their personality
is like and how much they will need from someone
else and how much they're capable of doing themselves. How
(09:58):
then do you make sure that you're offer of support
if you are talking to them, is actually practical rather
than just well meaning, Because the well meaning side of
it is good just for them to know that you're there, right,
But how do you actually physically help, physically help when
it's you don't just want it to be kind of
empty platitudes like oh it'll get better or yeah, you're okay,
(10:20):
you've got this, like it's nice, but it's not going
to actually do anything.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Right of course, So obviously there's practical things, so you
can help to do a budget, say to that person, look,
why don't we sit down together and do your budget?
Or why didn't I come with you to see a
financial counselor so that you've actually doing the work with them,
holding their hand along the.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Way, And that kind of helps in a number of ways.
If you offer to go and see someone with them,
they've got emotional support they've got kind of someone almost
holding them accountable in a way, kind of making sure
that they get there and don't cancel that kind of
appointment at the last minute. That would be a very,
very kind of powerful thing to do.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And also you've got another set of ears in the
room because you know the counselor or you know that
budgeting experience. There might be a tip that gets missed
by person who needs to help the most, and then
they can gently remind them, Hey, don't forget that. You
know that counselor said, this is very common. You know
this is a great strategy to use. So it is
again it's coming back to that place of care and compassion.
(11:20):
But obviously you've got to be mindful not overstepping the mark.
Obviously you can't be giving superannuation advice to someone who's
really swiss about retirement. You need to understand a fay.
That's probably where a professional steps in and you're offering
guidance here, not control. So you don't want to be
taking over their finances for multiple reasons. But this is
all about helping them help themselves as well and having
(11:41):
boundaries in place. You know, when they're ready to talk
your talk, but if you get to a point where
they're exhausted emotionally, mentally, even financially, that you know, Okay,
all right, We're going to park this conversation for a while.
And a big one I would say here as well,
from a practical point of view, is protecting yourself.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I want to get to that in the moment as well,
about kind of how you make sure those boundaries are
in place to protect you as well, and also to
talk about what happens if the person that you're speaking
with that you have identified as needing some help is
resistant to help and you are worried that their situation
is just going to get worse and worse and potentially
(12:20):
they are at risk. So there's still a bit to cover.
We'll take a quick break and come back with more.
Can We are talking about how to help somebody who
is in trouble, in financial trouble, and we talked about
the importance of approaching it from a really supportive place,
that it is all about having empathy and it is
(12:41):
about making sure that person doesn't feel judged and just
feel supported. What happens though, if they don't want help,
or if they deny that they are having issues because
there is an element of embarrassment absolutely in this. What
if they deny that there's a problem, do you just
drop it?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Or what's worse, they you try and help them and
they throw it back in your face. Well, they don't
actually follow what you suggested at all and go down
a completely different path that actually causes more damage. Yes, look,
it is really hard, and this is where you've got
to protect yourself. I had a recent situation where someone
very close to me was in a lot of financial
trouble and they came to me and confided to me,
(13:21):
and you know, I spent hours going through a list
of all the different things they could do to help
fix the situation, and did the budget with them, did
some goals with them to spoke about their mindset. And
I spent hours and hours and hours, and I pulled
all these special strings for this particular person so that
they had this opportunity to make some extra cash and
quite a bit of extra cash. And they did all
(13:43):
those things, but then they went and bought a whole
new wardrobe with all that money instead of actually dealing
with the actual heart of the financial problem. Now that
was really hard. There was such a mix of emotions there.
I was angry, I was frustrated, I felt disrespected. Then
I felt really sad becuse I could see this situation
that was the exact problem at the first place as
to why this person was in this situation. So you've
(14:05):
got to know when to pull back and when to say,
all right, I'm not of any help here. This person
hasn't actually reached their rock bottom. So this is where
you really need to respect their decision, keep the door open,
let them know that you are still there to help.
But you also just need to move on with your life.
And you know, I really think there's a lot of
power in leading by example. You don't necessarily need to
(14:28):
say you should do this, or I said this is
a great idea. You can sometimes you know, silence and success.
You just get on and do your thing and mention now, yes,
you know, I'm working on this financial goal right now,
or I've managed to save up this much money so far,
or I've finally paid off that credit card. Just lead
by example, and you just peppering did all the things
that you've managed to do and how it feels, and
(14:50):
just talk about that and just lead by example. Over time,
that person may wake up, But you can't help everyone.
And that's what I've really had to realize as well,
as a finance planner who's so passionate about financial illness.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Onto a rather sticky situation now, and that is family
helping family or really close friends. Are there circumstances where
you would ever give or lend money to people in
order to help them through a situation or is this
just too kind of high risk that you can end
(15:24):
up kind of getting dragged into their financial mess as well?
And I suppose if you do do it, how do
you do it in a way that protects you again
putting up these boundaries and trying to protect your own
situation while helping them.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Personally, I would always help someone I cut and Tom
and I both like that, and we've actually agreed that
there are certain people in our lives that we will
always find a way to help them if it got
to that situation. And so if you do decide to
do it, there are a couple of I guess agreed
rules that you must have in place beforehand. Is Number
one is you never lend more money than you can't
afford to lose. So if you almost need to expect
(16:00):
going to get that back, and if you do, that's wonderful.
The other thing is, obviously, if you're in a relationship,
you've got to check with your partner that you're both
on the same page and you agree on the limit,
you reagree on the terms, and that there are no
more loans beyond that particular point. So there are some
firm boundaries that you've communicated upfront and you've communicated to
that particular person. If you lend money, also consider getting
(16:22):
it written down to avoid any misunderstandings as to you
know whether there's interest paid, or whether how long that
money has to be paid back, or you know whether
it can be paid in certain chunks perhaps, and.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
To make it abundantly clear that it is in fact
alone and not a gift exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And at the end of the day, if you can't
lend it, because it's going to put you at financial jeopardy,
explain that back to the person to say, look, I
would love to help you, but we're actually in a
really tight situation ourselves. So by us helping you out,
we're actually going to be you know, it's going to
mean that we're going to default on this and that,
and then that's going to happen, you know, certain repercussions,
but also never forget you know, you can help someone
not necessarily by throwing money at the problem. You know,
(16:59):
it's that on monetary help can sometimes that actually be
of greater value, you know, connecting them with resources like
the National Deadline or for example, you know CBA's Next
Chapter program, which is amazing for people who are suffering
from you know, financial abuse. So there are lots of
different ways you can actually help people without giving them money.
And you know, like I know for times in my
(17:19):
lives where my friends have sent each other quotes or
funny means to help improve their mood as they're going
through a particular challenging time. You know, you can't pour
from an empty cup. So remember that, so that you
have that firm boundary for your own protection when it
comes to helping people.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
And I suppose if the person who is approaching you
is a family member, it does add a certain emotional
element to it, Yeah, which you again need to navigate carefully.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Right, you feel so much more obliged to help a
family member, Well, I certainly do think most than a friend.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, And so in terms of then of you mentioned
a couple of results there, and it's probably a good
place to kind of finish up where people can get
help if they need to. And so I'll just get
you to mention those ones again. But also, is it
just a case of providing these details to someone who
needs help, or is it kind of how do you
(18:16):
kind of encourage someone to seek professional advice knowing that
a professional is unless you are the person that they're
approaching for help, a professional is probably always going to
be able to give better advice than say regular person. Right,
how do you get them to get that professional advice
without them feeling pressured?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Well, this is the problem if they're not ready to
get help themselves. I mean, you can take a horse
to the water, but you can't make it drink. So
you need to respect they may have not actually hit
that moment where they go all right, this is my
rock bottom enough, so I'm going to rebuild from here.
That moment may just have not come yet, may in
fact never come at all, and they'll just continue on
living this life. Now, we need to respect that's someone's decision.
(18:56):
They have a choice themselves. And I come back to this,
I've helped so many people who then self destructed again.
People need to learn how to help themselves and it
is the best way to learn most of the time,
not all the time, but most of the time. So
you know, you've got to have your hand on your heart.
So you've got to nowhere to support, where to listen,
(19:18):
where to show compassion, where to step in, and of
course where to just step out and sit patiently on
the sideline. So you are the first person to cheer them,
support them and encourage them the moment they say, you
know what, I'm ready to help myself.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Okay, So those resources, the National Debt Helpline is a
great one, great to start with, and look, the easiest
way to get in touch there is to go to
the website NDH dot org dot au. If you just
google National Debt Helpline, it'll come up. And there are
other resources like so many next next Chapter, through Combank
and others.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
A lot of the churches have free financial counseling as well,
so there are lots of people out there who are
willing to help you for free. And of course then
you you great podcast like this one.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, you know, you've got books.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
You can get from the library. There are lots of
online courses you can do. There are so many things
out there that are for free. They give you some
really great financial literacy to help you get out of
situation you're in, or help that person get up the
situation they're in.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah, in terms of the kind of the formal ones
like the dead help line and those will put a
few links in the show notes as well. Serious topic today,
wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
It was? But it's an important one.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I think so, And I think everyone will have experienced
this at some point, have identified somebody in their life
who is going through Look, and let's face it, there
are a lot of people going through financial trouble at
the moment because everything is just so expensive. So hopefully
there is something in here in terms of those signs
(20:47):
to watch for, the things to watch out for, and
even that very basic principle of help them do it
from a place of compassion and empathy and not judgment
and use those professional resources as the backup. And I
really liked what you said about kind of leading by
example as well, just kind of demonstrating kind of what
you're doing and people will observe that, and it might
(21:08):
be a more kind of tactful way or delicate way
of kind of navigating through, but just be there for
the people who need it around you exactly. Okay, Canna,
where do we find you? If anybody wants more information.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
The best place to get in contact with me is
at Canna Campbell Official on.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Instagram and you can hear me every day with Sean
Aylmer on Fear and Greed daily business news for people
who make their own decisions. Thank you very much for
listening to how do they are?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
For that?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Remember to hit follow on the podcast, and importantly, particularly
for this episode, if there is someone who think might
benefit from hearing it, then please send them the link
to the episode so they can have a listen. Thank
you very much for your company. Please join us again
next week
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