September 2, 2025 • 26 mins
This week on the show Simon and Andrew chat to Jenni Crowther the WA state manager of Cérge, a companion website designed to help people with disability access venues. The Australian company allows users to see what accessible functions a venue has before visiting. Essentially being a remote recce to make sure the space accommodates you, any mobility aids or requirements.
This web tool can give you the important information you need to assist, with informative guides outlining accessibility features and arrangements for local facilities and locations.It aims to reduce anxiety and uncertainty when visiting a new place.
If you want to learn more about Cérge click here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:17):
Hello, I'm Simon Chong and welcome to In Plain Sight,
a program where we highlight people who are making a
difference and impact within the disability sector and their community.
We shine a light on those who otherwise would be
hidden in plain sight, and it's a pleasure to bring
you these programmes on a weekly basis here on Vision
Australia Radio. Hi and welcome and hello, Andrew.
S2 (00:39):
How are you?
S1 (00:40):
Simon, I'm really great. I'm always great when I'm in
the studio with you, Andrew, and getting ready to present
this fabulous show.
S2 (00:47):
Likewise.
S1 (00:48):
It's such a rewarding thing and I like to remind
people once again, if you have anything you'd like to
contribute or like, any way of giving us some feedback
or some contributions, feel free to contact us at the
program and the program's email is in plain sight at
Vision Australia. Org. It's in plain sight at Vision Australia
(01:10):
and we'd love to hear from you sometime if you'd
like to do that. Now, Andrew, we had a really
interesting conversation with our guest this week.
S2 (01:17):
We did.
S1 (01:18):
And it really sparked us into great ideas for what
we could come up with in the future. And I'd
like to also talk about right now, there's a lot
of conversations in the media about the NDIS, and yes,
it costs a lot of money to run an organisation
like that, and governments need to contain and control spending
(01:40):
in regards to everything they do. But in doing that,
important services like health and disability and emergency services and
so on shouldn't be the brunt of financial cutbacks that
government departments decide they need to do. I'd also, whilst
I'm in this editorial mode, I'd like to remind certain
(02:02):
people that using measurements like mild and serious and things
of this nature are not helpful. It's old thinking. It's
old style medical model way of reducing things to a measurement,
and also like to remind people that most disabilities, impairments
(02:24):
and serious illness is permanent just by its nature and
we don't have to prove it anyway. So that's me
on my soapbox this morning. Andrew, I hope you don't mind.
Everyone just get that off my chest, because there's a
lot going on in this disability world at the moment.
S2 (02:41):
The occasional soapbox is good, I reckon.
S1 (02:43):
Indeed. Now, Andrew, our guest today, Jenny, is going to
be talking to us about an app that we can
use to assist us in our accessing businesses and services.
Do you have any favorite apps on your smart device
that you like to use? Andrew.
S2 (02:59):
The most frequent one I use I think is probably
the Transperth one. Looking up when the next train's going
to come or the bus or whatever. What else do
I use? I use the ABC iview app. Yes, being
an ABC listener, as well as a Vision Australia radio listener. Indeed.
So yeah, Spotify, all those kinds of things.
S1 (03:19):
I like my smartphone very much. And in regards to
the Transperth app, for instance, that's a good example. It's
a very helpful app. And Transperth is the government authority
that runs public transport here in Perth, Western Australia. And
again it has flaws in it in regards to accessibility.
(03:39):
It's really disappointing and it's one of those things where
it could be and should be a lot better than
it is in regards to disability access for the app.
So I'm glad you brought that one up. But there's
simple things on the phone that come with the phone
that can be useful for everybody with a disability. And
(04:01):
for me, one of the things I've discovered is that
there's a magnifying app on my iPhone that is free.
It's part of the iPhone and it has so many
more functions. It's just magnifying things. And it's a great
app that I can use to read instructions on how
to cook something, or whatever it might be, or the
heading of a letter, and just simple little things that
(04:22):
these smart devices can help us with. And it's great.
And it's also great to use these innovations to make
things more accessible and easier to use for not only
people with disabilities, but for everybody. And Andrew, just quickly
tell us a little bit about our guests coming up.
S2 (04:41):
Our guest this week is Jenny Crowther, and she's the
the WA state manager for surge. It's newly discovered, I guess,
for the two of us. We've only just discovered this app,
but it's been around for about five years.
S1 (04:53):
So I'd be keen to hear from you what apps
that you use that help you in your everyday life.
If you have a disability, vision impairment, whatever it is
that you think might be useful for others to learn about.
It's great to share these ideas. And that's what this
interview is all about. And this week we have a
(05:16):
guest in the studio. Her name is Jenny Crowther and
she is a disability advocate and state manager for surge.
Surge is a new, innovative app to help people with
a disability and to help with communication and other aspects
of life. And I'd like to welcome Jenny to the
studio now. Hi, Jenny. Hi. Thanks for having me along.
Now we'll get to basics. What is surge? And roughly,
(05:38):
what is it all about?
S3 (05:39):
Okay. So surge is a website and companion app. And
basically it's about giving people the information or know before
you go, um, about a venue, about accessibility, about what
it's going to look like, what it's going to feel
like and how to get around.
S1 (05:55):
I'm interested that you said two things there. It's a
website and a companion app. How how do you define
a companion app?
S3 (06:03):
So the app is like a little friend in the pocket.
The way it works is it has the same information
on the accessible venues embedded into it, but it also
has a function to allow people to communicate with the venue.
And as we start talking about what the website and
the app do, I can explain how the companion app
comes into that.
S1 (06:23):
So surge is an Australian organization company.
S3 (06:27):
So surge is an Australian company. It was created by
a couple over in Queensland through their own lived experience.
And you can read about both of them on the website.
But Victoria has lived experience of PTSD and understandably for
people that have PTSD or anxiety or anything like that,
(06:48):
sometimes going to a new place is just too much.
But if you knew what it was going to look
like and you knew what to expect, you'd be more
confident to go. And that's how surge was born.
S1 (06:58):
And how long have you been with surge? Jen?
S3 (07:00):
Not long. I met them late 2024 on a co-design
project and then started working with them, um, a little
bit earlier this year.
S1 (07:10):
Now we better get this out of the way. Serge,
how do we spell Serge?
S3 (07:13):
So it is c e r g e and the
e is the little accent on it. The first e.
S1 (07:20):
So Serge is from French. It's a shortened form of concierge. Concierge. Yep.
As you find in a hotel.
S3 (07:27):
Yep. And that's pretty much what it tries to do.
S1 (07:29):
So it kind of welcomes you and lead you to
where you need to go. Are there other apps or
websites of this nature out there, you think?
S3 (07:39):
Um, from what we've seen, there's not. There's some that
do different elements. Certainly. So there's a couple out there
that provide that access information, or there's venues that do
virtual tours. So I'll backtrack a little bit and say
what Serge actually offers. So when it onboards a business
or a venue, tourist spot, whatever it is a leisure center, library,
(08:01):
it creates a 360 virtual tour, which obviously we know
what they are. They go through with the images they
show around. You can also measure spaces as well. So
if you've got mobility devices that might be a little
bit wider. And you know that in some places it's
a bit tricky to navigate, you can actually measure it
to make sure that it's suitable. It also does a
visual story and sensory guide, so similar to a social
(08:25):
story that tells you where to go and what to expect.
This one has the venue broken down into different areas,
and it describes each area with matching photos. And then
what you can see, hear, feel, smell. And for people
that might be autistic particularly, you know, my child has autism.
Knowing that stuff can help them prepare physically and mentally
(08:47):
for a new venue. There's an audio guide, which is
obviously really helpful for people that process information. Um, audio, um,
or for people that might have a vision impairment. There
is also keyword sign, communication board and accessibility guide that
gives you an idea of all the information about accessibility.
(09:07):
but it's laid out really easy and clear. In dot
points for people that don't want a lot of over
the top information. And then also there's an AI wayfinding,
which allows the people to chat to the AI about
the venue and start to prepare to go. So it
can be simple things like, you know, opening hours, where
(09:28):
do I go? Right up to information about the accessibility
features as well. So the question that you had was
about other apps. So there are some out there that
gather information and put it out there, but it's very
hit and miss. It's not all inclusive. So they might
focus on one element. Um, we try to provide information
along lots of different avenues to receive that information. So
(09:51):
it tries to meet as many people as possible. The
other benefit is that because it's all in one, so
you don't have some venues that might have a virtual
tour but don't have the other elements? Mhm. Um, it
doesn't matter how you sort of need to engage with
that information. You can get it there. And because we
visit the sites and get the information, and it's a
subscription based for the businesses that we make sure that
(10:15):
the information is always up to date. When you have
apps that are relying on community to put in the
information and no one is monitoring it, then you have inaccuracies,
which can be actually really detrimental for someone visiting.
S1 (10:29):
That's been an issue in the past. Yeah. Talked about
that in the past where such and such leisure center
had a great staff person working there who knew all
about disability, inclusion and access and so on. So they
get a they get a tick in the box saying, yeah,
this is a great accessible venue. That person leaves. This
website's not updated. And then it's no longer accessible. So
(10:52):
yeah it's saying you're saying that that's sort of been addressed.
That type of.
S3 (10:56):
Yep. By having the subscription there we can remind the
business to look over things and we will check with them.
So can you please look at your virtual tour? Can
you please look at this and make sure it's up
to date. And there's that constant feedback as well. Also,
with the AOA finding, we know that currently with AI
there's a lot of inconsistencies. There's incorrect information. But because
(11:20):
our AI is trained on the venue and what information
about the venue we provide, it only pulls from that
information and therefore it's most accurate.
S1 (11:30):
You mentioned that it's subscription based, so you better tell
us how it works and how users can access the
app and the costs involved for users. Are the costs
for users?
S3 (11:43):
No, there's no cost for users. So whether you have
a disability or not, if you find knowing about a
venue is beneficial for you before you go, you can
access the website and the app for free. All the
costs refer to the businesses that subscribe to that. The
companion app, which I mentioned earlier, allows you to actually
communicate with the venue, New, for example, we find that
(12:07):
a lot of people might go to a pool and
need to use a hoist by the time they get there.
By the time they find a staff member that's familiar
with how hoist works, or where it is or how
to operate it. You might be there for 30 minutes
or so. While this here allows you to send them
an app, a little notification saying I'll be there in
30 minutes. Um, my name is Jenny. I am a
(12:30):
wheelchair user or whatever you want to share. I need
to access your hoist. And that way the business can
prepare in advance.
S1 (12:38):
There's a few features on there. As I was looking
through the app the other day that really caught my eye. Now,
far as I could tell, the virtual tour doesn't have
any audio with it, so that is a bit tricky
for the blind folk out there. But you do have
an audio description. Uh, there's a tab.
S3 (12:58):
The audio guide.
S1 (13:00):
Now, I looked at that and that's basically a description
of when you press the audio guide, it's the description
of all the key features of the venue. The facility.
It will say where the entrance is, how to find
this and how to find that and that type of thing.
Is that right?
S3 (13:17):
Yeah. That's correct. And they try to focus on the
accessible elements or the elements. That would be a barrier,
a barrier to accessibility. For example, we know that cobblestone
flooring can be really tricky for wheelchairs or people that
use white canes. Yeah. So they make sure that that
information is in there so you know in advance what
to expect.
S1 (13:38):
And obviously, being vision impaired, myself and a number of
the audience is as well. Tell us. I'm really curious
about the AI wayfinding aspect of this app. How does
that work?
S3 (13:52):
Similar to if anyone's ever used ChatGPT, your screen reader
will pick it up just the same if you're using
a screen reader so you can just type in or
say your question, and then it will be able to
say it back to you.
S1 (14:05):
So it's not used like what some of us might
be familiar with a GPS or, um, a navigation app.
Some blind people use navigation apps and other similar things.
Like you say, this is a companion. So with that
AI wayfinding tool, be used once you're at the venue
or to prep you before you go.
S3 (14:25):
Predominantly to prep you. But you can certainly bring it
up when you're at the venue as well to ask
any other questions so it can provide prompting. If you're
there and you say, say you're at the front and
you go, where do I go to? And give an example,
it would be able to give you that reply of
where to go, but a lot of people use it
to prepare for going to the venue.
S1 (14:45):
I noticed on the app a lot of the venues
that are already listed are aquatic centers and recreation centers
and this type of thing, um, and um, even cinemas
and theaters and whatnot. So if you think of your
average big suburban aquatic center, they have so much going
on like there's a cafe over there, there's a swimming
(15:05):
pool over there, there's a gym there and there's basketball courts.
And I can really envisage that this type of companion
app would be very useful just to, like you say,
prepare people who have anxiety or have disability or vision
impairment to to have a better understanding of what to
expect and what not to expect.
S3 (15:26):
Yeah, 100%. And I think sometimes, um, if you talk
about people that might have sensory aversions, sometimes there's a
way that they can put strategies in place if they
know what to expect. So for example, if it's, um, noisy,
they might be able to wear noise cancelling headphones. But
also we know that no matter what we do with venues,
(15:47):
you can never make it perfect for everyone in their needs,
because sometimes one person's needs is actually completely conflicting with
another person's needs. So really, this app is about empowering
people to know if a venue is suitable for them
and if it's not, they've got that chance to connect
with that venue and see what accommodations can be made.
So really, it's about just giving as much information about
(16:09):
a venue so that people can physically and mentally prepare
and then have that touch point with the venue if
there's extra things that they might need to know.
S2 (16:18):
You're listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio
with Simon Chong and me, Andrew Williams. Our guest this
week is Jenny Crowther, WA state manager of surge, an
Australian developed app that's free for people with disability to
assist with accessing business and services. And now it's back
to Simon and Jenny.
S1 (16:38):
Now I need to sort of try to get through
to some practicalities of the app. I was having a
look at it the other day, as I mentioned. There
seems to be a whole list of venues already on
the app, like sort of such and such leisure centre.
So click on that. And then there's all the options
of how to explore it in a virtual space and,
(16:59):
you know, the AI and so on. If I have
a particular venue, let's just say Bill Smith's Recreation Centre
in in Mosman Park. Does that have to be registered?
The business Bill Smith's Recreation Centre has to register to
be on the app and subscribe. Is that how it works?
S3 (17:15):
Yeah. That's correct. So in order to keep it free
for people with disability, we rely on businesses to subscribe
to the app. Uh, we are getting much, much bigger. Um,
I know there was over 30 venues over in Queensland
that were uploaded the other day. There's four coming in
Perth at the moment. Uh, they're just trying to really
(17:36):
start branching out. So it was a Queensland based company obviously.
And then now they've got state managers like myself starting
to pop up in different states across the world as well.
There's a few international venues on there. Uh, so I
think the more people that know about it, the more
people will get on board.
S1 (17:51):
So say, I, um, know that Bill Smith's Recreation Centre
has registered, has subscribed. How do I actually find that
particular venue on the app.
S3 (18:02):
So on the app it will pick up what's nearest
to you if you're out from your house. You can
also use the search function. You can also have it
as a favorite and on the website similar, you can
go to the website, you can go to exclusive venues
and then you can search via the type of venue,
the suburb. Um, also be able to favorite it.
S1 (18:22):
I'm glad that there's a website as well because some
of us, me included, prefer using a website than an
app because they're a lot easier to navigate, a lot
easier to use. And for me, being visually impaired, I
can actually get a better view literally of of things
and the layout and so on. Rather than tapping at
(18:43):
my smartphone and having a computer say things at me.
So would that be the same information as I would
get on the app on the website?
S3 (18:53):
Correct. It's exactly the same. It's mirrored. Uh, and I
do think a lot of people prefer, um, having that
option as well, because I think what I like the
most about working with this company is that they're always
open to, you know, expanding and changing, which is how
I met them through a co-design last year. They constantly
(19:13):
work with the community, um, engage with people with lived
experience such as myself to look at, okay, how do
we actually make this better? How do we keep on
moving forward? The great thing about technology at the moment
is it's constantly changing. We're constantly getting new things that
we can do. And everyone I'm coming across that from
the co-founders, Chris and Victoria, um, to the other staff,
(19:35):
is that it's always about what next? How can we
make it better for the people that are using it?
S1 (19:40):
Say, I have a venue that I would like to
go to. How do I find out if that venue
is on the surge app or the website?
S3 (19:50):
Yep. So the way the surge works with the businesses,
it's through a white label solution. So it is embedded
into their website too. So you should be able to
see if you're on their website. It will have a
link to the surge applications. Likewise, if you search them
up on the surge website or app, you'll see if
they're on there. Um, if they're not, I'm always open
(20:10):
to people reaching out to me saying, you know, it'd
be great to see this because we can have the
conversation with the venue. They may not do it, which
is fine. But again, it's about knowing what would be
most useful to the community.
S1 (20:21):
If I say, ah, I've got a venue I really
like and they're really helpful and they're really great, but
they're not on the app yet. How do I recommend
them to surge?
S3 (20:31):
Um, they can always reach out to me.
S1 (20:33):
If you're listening to the podcast, we will put the
details of Jenny and Surge, um, in the podcast description
and all the relevant links within that. So, uh, if
you're listening on the radio, go back, try and find
us on the podcast In Plain Sight by Vision Australia Radio.
And um, the information will be in the podcast description.
(20:54):
So I guess a business who wants to register does
the same thing. Yeah, they I think I've heard about this.
I've had a person tell me that it could be
good for us and they just contact this contact.
S3 (21:06):
Yeah. And it's a tiered model as well because we
understand that, you know, different venues are different sizes and
different levels of complexity. So we can work with the
business about their size and their needs.
S1 (21:17):
You know how many people might be using this here
in Western Australia?
S3 (21:21):
I did actually have the number. It is constantly growing
because I think more people are hearing about it. And
as more venues get on board, um, we're seeing that
a lot of people are engaging with the website. I
think at the moment there'll be people that are, you know,
certainly going on there and looking up and then are seen, oh,
there's not many venues for this site or this area. Um,
which is one of the things I'm really excited to
(21:43):
represent Western Australia is to get more of us, our
businesses and our community venues up on that website to
make sure that we are being inclusive to anyone that
needs to know information before they visit a venue.
S1 (21:56):
Yeah, I think it's fabulous and I'm really keen to
explore this new innovation. And I don't have anxiety as such.
I don't have it. Clinical anxiety diagnosis. I do think
it's interesting to know as much as I can about
(22:16):
a venue before I attend. And sometimes I think this
could be really useful to know. Actually, that seems a
pretty easy venue to navigate. And that looks like a
pretty friendly place. I might not need to take an assistant,
a companion, or a support worker with me. I think
I can handle it on my own. Would that be
(22:36):
one of the benefits that people are using this kind
of thing for?
S3 (22:39):
Jenny 100%. I think that what people really want is
autonomy to go places without having to rely on others
to support them. And sometimes it's just purely the lack
of information about a venue that prevents them from doing that.
So if we can provide that information and that means
that person can go there independently. That's exactly what we
(23:01):
want to see.
S1 (23:01):
One of the other aspects I want to pick up
on is the communications assistance type aspects of it, especially
for those who can't communicate verbally or have other communications difficulties.
Can you tell us a little bit about that quickly
before we have to finish up soon?
S3 (23:17):
Yep. So there's both a communication board and keyword sign
board for each venue. So communication board has basic words
or concepts that people can point to. So I need
to go to the toilet or I need to go
out or I want you to stop. The key word
sign again has those signs that can be used. It
also allows you they're all created by speech therapists. And
(23:42):
with every keyword sign, it actually links back to the
website they were created from, where there's a video, so
you can actually learn it as well. So the people
can use the sign, um, on their app or the
communication board. And likewise the staff member can have that
as well. So it actually opens up conversation for people
that don't, um, might not be verbal, um, and use
(24:04):
those elements to communicate.
S1 (24:06):
Now we've run out of time, unfortunately. Jenny, again, is
there anything else you'd like to tell us about surge
and how to get involved with it before we have
to finish?
S3 (24:15):
Really, we just want people to be able to know
before they go so they can be prepared and, um,
just start the conversation. Um, the more people that know about, um,
the applications and how it can help, the more likely
we are to get people taking it for their businesses.
S1 (24:31):
That's fantastic. Well, thanks, Jenny, for coming in and speaking
to us today and sharing this information about this fabulous
new app and website that can be really assistive to
people with a disability and, uh, other impairments. Um, so
thanks for joining us, Jenny.
S3 (24:48):
Thank you for having me.
S1 (24:50):
And just before we wind up this conversation, I probably
should say that this is not a paid endorsement in
any way, and I'm just talking about the app because
I think it's interesting and relevant to our community. And, uh,
we has no affiliation at the moment with Vision Australia
or anything else. So just check it out if you
(25:11):
find it interesting. And it's all there on the internet. Uh,
good luck everybody. Thanks for joining us. Speak to you
next time. Bye for now.
S2 (25:23):
That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us
at the same time next week on Vision Australia Radio,
VA radio digital and online at VA Radio.com. You can
also listen on demand by searching for In Plain Sight
by Vision Australia Radio. Wherever you get your podcasts, or
ask your smart device to play in Plain sight by
(25:45):
Vision Australia Radio. Thanks for listening.
S1 (25:47):
Thank you.
Hello, I'm Simon Chong and welcome to In Plain Sight,
a program where we highlight people who are making a
difference and impact within the disability sector and their community.
We shine a light on those who otherwise would be
hidden in plain sight, and it's a pleasure to bring
you these programmes on a weekly basis here on Vision
Australia Radio. Hi and welcome and hello, Andrew.
S2 (00:39):
How are you?
S1 (00:40):
Simon, I'm really great. I'm always great when I'm in
the studio with you, Andrew, and getting ready to present
this fabulous show.
S2 (00:47):
Likewise.
S1 (00:48):
It's such a rewarding thing and I like to remind
people once again, if you have anything you'd like to
contribute or like, any way of giving us some feedback
or some contributions, feel free to contact us at the
program and the program's email is in plain sight at
Vision Australia. Org. It's in plain sight at Vision Australia
(01:10):
and we'd love to hear from you sometime if you'd
like to do that. Now, Andrew, we had a really
interesting conversation with our guest this week.
S2 (01:17):
We did.
S1 (01:18):
And it really sparked us into great ideas for what
we could come up with in the future. And I'd
like to also talk about right now, there's a lot
of conversations in the media about the NDIS, and yes,
it costs a lot of money to run an organisation
like that, and governments need to contain and control spending
(01:40):
in regards to everything they do. But in doing that,
important services like health and disability and emergency services and
so on shouldn't be the brunt of financial cutbacks that
government departments decide they need to do. I'd also, whilst
I'm in this editorial mode, I'd like to remind certain
(02:02):
people that using measurements like mild and serious and things
of this nature are not helpful. It's old thinking. It's
old style medical model way of reducing things to a measurement,
and also like to remind people that most disabilities, impairments
(02:24):
and serious illness is permanent just by its nature and
we don't have to prove it anyway. So that's me
on my soapbox this morning. Andrew, I hope you don't mind.
Everyone just get that off my chest, because there's a
lot going on in this disability world at the moment.
S2 (02:41):
The occasional soapbox is good, I reckon.
S1 (02:43):
Indeed. Now, Andrew, our guest today, Jenny, is going to
be talking to us about an app that we can
use to assist us in our accessing businesses and services.
Do you have any favorite apps on your smart device
that you like to use? Andrew.
S2 (02:59):
The most frequent one I use I think is probably
the Transperth one. Looking up when the next train's going
to come or the bus or whatever. What else do
I use? I use the ABC iview app. Yes, being
an ABC listener, as well as a Vision Australia radio listener. Indeed.
So yeah, Spotify, all those kinds of things.
S1 (03:19):
I like my smartphone very much. And in regards to
the Transperth app, for instance, that's a good example. It's
a very helpful app. And Transperth is the government authority
that runs public transport here in Perth, Western Australia. And
again it has flaws in it in regards to accessibility.
(03:39):
It's really disappointing and it's one of those things where
it could be and should be a lot better than
it is in regards to disability access for the app.
So I'm glad you brought that one up. But there's
simple things on the phone that come with the phone
that can be useful for everybody with a disability. And
(04:01):
for me, one of the things I've discovered is that
there's a magnifying app on my iPhone that is free.
It's part of the iPhone and it has so many
more functions. It's just magnifying things. And it's a great
app that I can use to read instructions on how
to cook something, or whatever it might be, or the
heading of a letter, and just simple little things that
(04:22):
these smart devices can help us with. And it's great.
And it's also great to use these innovations to make
things more accessible and easier to use for not only
people with disabilities, but for everybody. And Andrew, just quickly
tell us a little bit about our guests coming up.
S2 (04:41):
Our guest this week is Jenny Crowther, and she's the
the WA state manager for surge. It's newly discovered, I guess,
for the two of us. We've only just discovered this app,
but it's been around for about five years.
S1 (04:53):
So I'd be keen to hear from you what apps
that you use that help you in your everyday life.
If you have a disability, vision impairment, whatever it is
that you think might be useful for others to learn about.
It's great to share these ideas. And that's what this
interview is all about. And this week we have a
(05:16):
guest in the studio. Her name is Jenny Crowther and
she is a disability advocate and state manager for surge.
Surge is a new, innovative app to help people with
a disability and to help with communication and other aspects
of life. And I'd like to welcome Jenny to the
studio now. Hi, Jenny. Hi. Thanks for having me along.
Now we'll get to basics. What is surge? And roughly,
(05:38):
what is it all about?
S3 (05:39):
Okay. So surge is a website and companion app. And
basically it's about giving people the information or know before
you go, um, about a venue, about accessibility, about what
it's going to look like, what it's going to feel
like and how to get around.
S1 (05:55):
I'm interested that you said two things there. It's a
website and a companion app. How how do you define
a companion app?
S3 (06:03):
So the app is like a little friend in the pocket.
The way it works is it has the same information
on the accessible venues embedded into it, but it also
has a function to allow people to communicate with the venue.
And as we start talking about what the website and
the app do, I can explain how the companion app
comes into that.
S1 (06:23):
So surge is an Australian organization company.
S3 (06:27):
So surge is an Australian company. It was created by
a couple over in Queensland through their own lived experience.
And you can read about both of them on the website.
But Victoria has lived experience of PTSD and understandably for
people that have PTSD or anxiety or anything like that,
(06:48):
sometimes going to a new place is just too much.
But if you knew what it was going to look
like and you knew what to expect, you'd be more
confident to go. And that's how surge was born.
S1 (06:58):
And how long have you been with surge? Jen?
S3 (07:00):
Not long. I met them late 2024 on a co-design
project and then started working with them, um, a little
bit earlier this year.
S1 (07:10):
Now we better get this out of the way. Serge,
how do we spell Serge?
S3 (07:13):
So it is c e r g e and the
e is the little accent on it. The first e.
S1 (07:20):
So Serge is from French. It's a shortened form of concierge. Concierge. Yep.
As you find in a hotel.
S3 (07:27):
Yep. And that's pretty much what it tries to do.
S1 (07:29):
So it kind of welcomes you and lead you to
where you need to go. Are there other apps or
websites of this nature out there, you think?
S3 (07:39):
Um, from what we've seen, there's not. There's some that
do different elements. Certainly. So there's a couple out there
that provide that access information, or there's venues that do
virtual tours. So I'll backtrack a little bit and say
what Serge actually offers. So when it onboards a business
or a venue, tourist spot, whatever it is a leisure center, library,
(08:01):
it creates a 360 virtual tour, which obviously we know
what they are. They go through with the images they
show around. You can also measure spaces as well. So
if you've got mobility devices that might be a little
bit wider. And you know that in some places it's
a bit tricky to navigate, you can actually measure it
to make sure that it's suitable. It also does a
visual story and sensory guide, so similar to a social
(08:25):
story that tells you where to go and what to expect.
This one has the venue broken down into different areas,
and it describes each area with matching photos. And then
what you can see, hear, feel, smell. And for people
that might be autistic particularly, you know, my child has autism.
Knowing that stuff can help them prepare physically and mentally
(08:47):
for a new venue. There's an audio guide, which is
obviously really helpful for people that process information. Um, audio, um,
or for people that might have a vision impairment. There
is also keyword sign, communication board and accessibility guide that
gives you an idea of all the information about accessibility.
(09:07):
but it's laid out really easy and clear. In dot
points for people that don't want a lot of over
the top information. And then also there's an AI wayfinding,
which allows the people to chat to the AI about
the venue and start to prepare to go. So it
can be simple things like, you know, opening hours, where
(09:28):
do I go? Right up to information about the accessibility
features as well. So the question that you had was
about other apps. So there are some out there that
gather information and put it out there, but it's very
hit and miss. It's not all inclusive. So they might
focus on one element. Um, we try to provide information
along lots of different avenues to receive that information. So
(09:51):
it tries to meet as many people as possible. The
other benefit is that because it's all in one, so
you don't have some venues that might have a virtual
tour but don't have the other elements? Mhm. Um, it
doesn't matter how you sort of need to engage with
that information. You can get it there. And because we
visit the sites and get the information, and it's a
subscription based for the businesses that we make sure that
(10:15):
the information is always up to date. When you have
apps that are relying on community to put in the
information and no one is monitoring it, then you have inaccuracies,
which can be actually really detrimental for someone visiting.
S1 (10:29):
That's been an issue in the past. Yeah. Talked about
that in the past where such and such leisure center
had a great staff person working there who knew all
about disability, inclusion and access and so on. So they
get a they get a tick in the box saying, yeah,
this is a great accessible venue. That person leaves. This
website's not updated. And then it's no longer accessible. So
(10:52):
yeah it's saying you're saying that that's sort of been addressed.
That type of.
S3 (10:56):
Yep. By having the subscription there we can remind the
business to look over things and we will check with them.
So can you please look at your virtual tour? Can
you please look at this and make sure it's up
to date. And there's that constant feedback as well. Also,
with the AOA finding, we know that currently with AI
there's a lot of inconsistencies. There's incorrect information. But because
(11:20):
our AI is trained on the venue and what information
about the venue we provide, it only pulls from that
information and therefore it's most accurate.
S1 (11:30):
You mentioned that it's subscription based, so you better tell
us how it works and how users can access the
app and the costs involved for users. Are the costs
for users?
S3 (11:43):
No, there's no cost for users. So whether you have
a disability or not, if you find knowing about a
venue is beneficial for you before you go, you can
access the website and the app for free. All the
costs refer to the businesses that subscribe to that. The
companion app, which I mentioned earlier, allows you to actually
communicate with the venue, New, for example, we find that
(12:07):
a lot of people might go to a pool and
need to use a hoist by the time they get there.
By the time they find a staff member that's familiar
with how hoist works, or where it is or how
to operate it. You might be there for 30 minutes
or so. While this here allows you to send them
an app, a little notification saying I'll be there in
30 minutes. Um, my name is Jenny. I am a
(12:30):
wheelchair user or whatever you want to share. I need
to access your hoist. And that way the business can
prepare in advance.
S1 (12:38):
There's a few features on there. As I was looking
through the app the other day that really caught my eye. Now,
far as I could tell, the virtual tour doesn't have
any audio with it, so that is a bit tricky
for the blind folk out there. But you do have
an audio description. Uh, there's a tab.
S3 (12:58):
The audio guide.
S1 (13:00):
Now, I looked at that and that's basically a description
of when you press the audio guide, it's the description
of all the key features of the venue. The facility.
It will say where the entrance is, how to find
this and how to find that and that type of thing.
Is that right?
S3 (13:17):
Yeah. That's correct. And they try to focus on the
accessible elements or the elements. That would be a barrier,
a barrier to accessibility. For example, we know that cobblestone
flooring can be really tricky for wheelchairs or people that
use white canes. Yeah. So they make sure that that
information is in there so you know in advance what
to expect.
S1 (13:38):
And obviously, being vision impaired, myself and a number of
the audience is as well. Tell us. I'm really curious
about the AI wayfinding aspect of this app. How does
that work?
S3 (13:52):
Similar to if anyone's ever used ChatGPT, your screen reader
will pick it up just the same if you're using
a screen reader so you can just type in or
say your question, and then it will be able to
say it back to you.
S1 (14:05):
So it's not used like what some of us might
be familiar with a GPS or, um, a navigation app.
Some blind people use navigation apps and other similar things.
Like you say, this is a companion. So with that
AI wayfinding tool, be used once you're at the venue
or to prep you before you go.
S3 (14:25):
Predominantly to prep you. But you can certainly bring it
up when you're at the venue as well to ask
any other questions so it can provide prompting. If you're
there and you say, say you're at the front and
you go, where do I go to? And give an example,
it would be able to give you that reply of
where to go, but a lot of people use it
to prepare for going to the venue.
S1 (14:45):
I noticed on the app a lot of the venues
that are already listed are aquatic centers and recreation centers
and this type of thing, um, and um, even cinemas
and theaters and whatnot. So if you think of your
average big suburban aquatic center, they have so much going
on like there's a cafe over there, there's a swimming
(15:05):
pool over there, there's a gym there and there's basketball courts.
And I can really envisage that this type of companion
app would be very useful just to, like you say,
prepare people who have anxiety or have disability or vision
impairment to to have a better understanding of what to
expect and what not to expect.
S3 (15:26):
Yeah, 100%. And I think sometimes, um, if you talk
about people that might have sensory aversions, sometimes there's a
way that they can put strategies in place if they
know what to expect. So for example, if it's, um, noisy,
they might be able to wear noise cancelling headphones. But
also we know that no matter what we do with venues,
(15:47):
you can never make it perfect for everyone in their needs,
because sometimes one person's needs is actually completely conflicting with
another person's needs. So really, this app is about empowering
people to know if a venue is suitable for them
and if it's not, they've got that chance to connect
with that venue and see what accommodations can be made.
So really, it's about just giving as much information about
(16:09):
a venue so that people can physically and mentally prepare
and then have that touch point with the venue if
there's extra things that they might need to know.
S2 (16:18):
You're listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio
with Simon Chong and me, Andrew Williams. Our guest this
week is Jenny Crowther, WA state manager of surge, an
Australian developed app that's free for people with disability to
assist with accessing business and services. And now it's back
to Simon and Jenny.
S1 (16:38):
Now I need to sort of try to get through
to some practicalities of the app. I was having a
look at it the other day, as I mentioned. There
seems to be a whole list of venues already on
the app, like sort of such and such leisure centre.
So click on that. And then there's all the options
of how to explore it in a virtual space and,
(16:59):
you know, the AI and so on. If I have
a particular venue, let's just say Bill Smith's Recreation Centre
in in Mosman Park. Does that have to be registered?
The business Bill Smith's Recreation Centre has to register to
be on the app and subscribe. Is that how it works?
S3 (17:15):
Yeah. That's correct. So in order to keep it free
for people with disability, we rely on businesses to subscribe
to the app. Uh, we are getting much, much bigger. Um,
I know there was over 30 venues over in Queensland
that were uploaded the other day. There's four coming in
Perth at the moment. Uh, they're just trying to really
(17:36):
start branching out. So it was a Queensland based company obviously.
And then now they've got state managers like myself starting
to pop up in different states across the world as well.
There's a few international venues on there. Uh, so I
think the more people that know about it, the more
people will get on board.
S1 (17:51):
So say, I, um, know that Bill Smith's Recreation Centre
has registered, has subscribed. How do I actually find that
particular venue on the app.
S3 (18:02):
So on the app it will pick up what's nearest
to you if you're out from your house. You can
also use the search function. You can also have it
as a favorite and on the website similar, you can
go to the website, you can go to exclusive venues
and then you can search via the type of venue,
the suburb. Um, also be able to favorite it.
S1 (18:22):
I'm glad that there's a website as well because some
of us, me included, prefer using a website than an
app because they're a lot easier to navigate, a lot
easier to use. And for me, being visually impaired, I
can actually get a better view literally of of things
and the layout and so on. Rather than tapping at
(18:43):
my smartphone and having a computer say things at me.
So would that be the same information as I would
get on the app on the website?
S3 (18:53):
Correct. It's exactly the same. It's mirrored. Uh, and I
do think a lot of people prefer, um, having that
option as well, because I think what I like the
most about working with this company is that they're always
open to, you know, expanding and changing, which is how
I met them through a co-design last year. They constantly
(19:13):
work with the community, um, engage with people with lived
experience such as myself to look at, okay, how do
we actually make this better? How do we keep on
moving forward? The great thing about technology at the moment
is it's constantly changing. We're constantly getting new things that
we can do. And everyone I'm coming across that from
the co-founders, Chris and Victoria, um, to the other staff,
(19:35):
is that it's always about what next? How can we
make it better for the people that are using it?
S1 (19:40):
Say, I have a venue that I would like to
go to. How do I find out if that venue
is on the surge app or the website?
S3 (19:50):
Yep. So the way the surge works with the businesses,
it's through a white label solution. So it is embedded
into their website too. So you should be able to
see if you're on their website. It will have a
link to the surge applications. Likewise, if you search them
up on the surge website or app, you'll see if
they're on there. Um, if they're not, I'm always open
(20:10):
to people reaching out to me saying, you know, it'd
be great to see this because we can have the
conversation with the venue. They may not do it, which
is fine. But again, it's about knowing what would be
most useful to the community.
S1 (20:21):
If I say, ah, I've got a venue I really
like and they're really helpful and they're really great, but
they're not on the app yet. How do I recommend
them to surge?
S3 (20:31):
Um, they can always reach out to me.
S1 (20:33):
If you're listening to the podcast, we will put the
details of Jenny and Surge, um, in the podcast description
and all the relevant links within that. So, uh, if
you're listening on the radio, go back, try and find
us on the podcast In Plain Sight by Vision Australia Radio.
And um, the information will be in the podcast description.
(20:54):
So I guess a business who wants to register does
the same thing. Yeah, they I think I've heard about this.
I've had a person tell me that it could be
good for us and they just contact this contact.
S3 (21:06):
Yeah. And it's a tiered model as well because we
understand that, you know, different venues are different sizes and
different levels of complexity. So we can work with the
business about their size and their needs.
S1 (21:17):
You know how many people might be using this here
in Western Australia?
S3 (21:21):
I did actually have the number. It is constantly growing
because I think more people are hearing about it. And
as more venues get on board, um, we're seeing that
a lot of people are engaging with the website. I
think at the moment there'll be people that are, you know,
certainly going on there and looking up and then are seen, oh,
there's not many venues for this site or this area. Um,
which is one of the things I'm really excited to
(21:43):
represent Western Australia is to get more of us, our
businesses and our community venues up on that website to
make sure that we are being inclusive to anyone that
needs to know information before they visit a venue.
S1 (21:56):
Yeah, I think it's fabulous and I'm really keen to
explore this new innovation. And I don't have anxiety as such.
I don't have it. Clinical anxiety diagnosis. I do think
it's interesting to know as much as I can about
(22:16):
a venue before I attend. And sometimes I think this
could be really useful to know. Actually, that seems a
pretty easy venue to navigate. And that looks like a
pretty friendly place. I might not need to take an assistant,
a companion, or a support worker with me. I think
I can handle it on my own. Would that be
(22:36):
one of the benefits that people are using this kind
of thing for?
S3 (22:39):
Jenny 100%. I think that what people really want is
autonomy to go places without having to rely on others
to support them. And sometimes it's just purely the lack
of information about a venue that prevents them from doing that.
So if we can provide that information and that means
that person can go there independently. That's exactly what we
(23:01):
want to see.
S1 (23:01):
One of the other aspects I want to pick up
on is the communications assistance type aspects of it, especially
for those who can't communicate verbally or have other communications difficulties.
Can you tell us a little bit about that quickly
before we have to finish up soon?
S3 (23:17):
Yep. So there's both a communication board and keyword sign
board for each venue. So communication board has basic words
or concepts that people can point to. So I need
to go to the toilet or I need to go
out or I want you to stop. The key word
sign again has those signs that can be used. It
also allows you they're all created by speech therapists. And
(23:42):
with every keyword sign, it actually links back to the
website they were created from, where there's a video, so
you can actually learn it as well. So the people
can use the sign, um, on their app or the
communication board. And likewise the staff member can have that
as well. So it actually opens up conversation for people
that don't, um, might not be verbal, um, and use
(24:04):
those elements to communicate.
S1 (24:06):
Now we've run out of time, unfortunately. Jenny, again, is
there anything else you'd like to tell us about surge
and how to get involved with it before we have
to finish?
S3 (24:15):
Really, we just want people to be able to know
before they go so they can be prepared and, um,
just start the conversation. Um, the more people that know about, um,
the applications and how it can help, the more likely
we are to get people taking it for their businesses.
S1 (24:31):
That's fantastic. Well, thanks, Jenny, for coming in and speaking
to us today and sharing this information about this fabulous
new app and website that can be really assistive to
people with a disability and, uh, other impairments. Um, so
thanks for joining us, Jenny.
S3 (24:48):
Thank you for having me.
S1 (24:50):
And just before we wind up this conversation, I probably
should say that this is not a paid endorsement in
any way, and I'm just talking about the app because
I think it's interesting and relevant to our community. And, uh,
we has no affiliation at the moment with Vision Australia
or anything else. So just check it out if you
(25:11):
find it interesting. And it's all there on the internet. Uh,
good luck everybody. Thanks for joining us. Speak to you
next time. Bye for now.
S2 (25:23):
That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us
at the same time next week on Vision Australia Radio,
VA radio digital and online at VA Radio.com. You can
also listen on demand by searching for In Plain Sight
by Vision Australia Radio. Wherever you get your podcasts, or
ask your smart device to play in Plain sight by
(25:45):
Vision Australia Radio. Thanks for listening.
S1 (25:47):
Thank you.
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