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September 23, 2025 28 mins

Join us as we discover the delights of the 'Totally Lit' Festival. From 26 September to 10 October in Fremantle/Walyalup, WA’s city of literature will come alive with a bright array of a variety of literature, books readings and discussions, showcasing some of the great authors and creators from WA and beyond.

We talk with Festival curator/producer Sharon Flindell to learn about this fascinating event and some of the highlights, including a wide range of topics such as:

  • Book Launch: The Legend of Jessie Hickman
    Fremantle’s own award-winning author and illustrator team, Mark Greenwood & Frané Lessac are back with a rollicking new picture book about the fascinating but little-known legend of Jessie Hickman, better known as ’The Lady Bushranger’.
  • Story Wheel!
    Step into the Story Wheel gondola and treat the young people in your life to their own private 10-minute story time experience with one of WA’s leading writers for children. Several options for different experiences.
  • Writer, lawyer, academic and attorney-general are a few of the many hats worn by Dr. Tony Buti MLA. As part of the Totally Lit festival Tony brings his experience as a father and his skill as a writer to a conversation about Alkira, the powerful and passionate book he has written about his daughter, Alkira and her life with cri du chat syndrome. Through this deeply personal story, Tony also asks us to consider the ways in which we might move towards a more just and inclusive society for all.

Find out more on the Totally Lit website.

Support Vision Australia Radio: https://www.visionaustralia.org/donate

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:17):
Hello, I'm Simon Chong and welcome to the program In
Plain Sight, a program where we highlight people who are
making a positive impact and a difference within the disability
sector and their community.

S2 (00:29):
Shining a light on those who might otherwise be hidden
in plain sight.

S1 (00:33):
And it's a pleasure to bring you these interesting stories
on a weekly basis here on Vision Australia Radio. Hello,
thanks for joining us. And welcome and welcome, Andrew. How
are you today Andrew.

S2 (00:44):
I'm excellent. Thank you. Exceptional even. How about you, Simon?

S1 (00:47):
Exceptional now. No I'm never excellent. And I don't think
I'm exceptional. But I'm alive, healthy and well and happy.
Happy to be here. The day in the studio is
my happiest day.

S2 (00:59):
One of my highlights of the week, too.

S1 (01:01):
Because I get to see you, Andrew.

S2 (01:03):
Oh, thank you, Simon.

S1 (01:04):
But we.

S2 (01:04):
Also feelings. Likewise.

S1 (01:05):
Well, we get to talk to some fascinating people. And
I do love my job here on Vision Australia Radio.
That gives me the opportunity to meet these really interesting people.
And this week we are going to talk to someone
very interesting about a new literature festival happening here in Fremantle,
Western Australia. And there was a lot going on in

(01:26):
the old town of Fremantle. And it's really great to
promote these different events that are happening and to give
them some time on the Vision Australia radio.

S2 (01:35):
Indeed. And the festival is the Totally Lit Festival, brand
new literary festival. The idea to start a literary festival
in Freo has been kicking around for a couple of years,
as you'll find out from our guest. Yeah, so it's
fantastic to see a brand new literary festival.

S1 (01:51):
It is, and as I mentioned within the interview with Sharon,
Fremantle is well known for many things, and we do
have a great collection of authors and other people in
the writing and literature arena in and around Fremantle. And
one of the people I've been following on my social
media is an author by the name of Mark Greenwood,

(02:13):
and he is going to be presenting at the um
Literature Festival in Fremantle. What's the book called? Andrew.

S2 (02:20):
It's called The Legend of Jesse Hickman.

S1 (02:23):
And what's his partner in Collaborator's name?

S2 (02:25):
Frané. Lessac.

S1 (02:27):
Yeah.

S2 (02:27):
And I beg your pardon.

S1 (02:29):
Franny.

S2 (02:30):
Lessac.

S1 (02:31):
And I would really highly recommend looking up both of
those people on the internet. And Franny will be doing
some other work alongside Mark as well, for children, because
they produce picture books for children, where Mark writes historic
stories that highlight the different aspects of Australian life. And

(02:52):
Franny does illustrations to capture the stories of great Australians,
and in this case, Jesse Hickman is also known as
Australia's most well known female bushranger, so that'd be worth
checking out. And the website for Totally Lit will be
put in our podcast description. If you're listening to the podcast.

(03:13):
Go to there to find out all about the ticketing
and where all the events are. And also when you
see an event that you like on the website, click
on that and go through to the ticketing aspect of
that particular event, and you will see the accessibility features
listed there for that particular event and venue. And as

(03:36):
Sharon states within the interview that I had with her,
given the historic and heritage aspect of many buildings in Fremantle,
some of them are not physically accessible and this is
mentioned within the interview, particular one lecture, an event that's
being held in a building in Central Fremantle, but most

(03:57):
of them have accessibility aspects akin to it. So whatever
your interest in reading or writing or just being part
of the vibe of Fremantle, get along and check out
this wonderful event going on in September and October. What
are the dates again?

S2 (04:16):
Andrew runs from the 26th of September and through to
the 10th of October.

S1 (04:21):
I'm really keen to check it out because, as I
say in the interview, I'm a passionate Fremantle person and
I do like reading, and I like also reading books
that do feature aspects of Western Australia and Fremantle. And
it's great to when you're reading something, to see aspects

(04:41):
of the familiar within that story, isn't it?

S2 (04:44):
It is. It is indeed. Also to note is Vision
Australia Radio is the media partner of the Totally Lit Festival,
and there'll be a number of sessions that will be
recorded and broadcast on Vision Australia Radio. So stay tuned
to Vision Australia Radio to hear those sessions when they
come up over the next few weeks. So here's Simon's

(05:07):
interview with Sharon Flindell from the Totally Lit Festival.

S1 (05:14):
This week our special guest is Sharon Lindell and she
is from the literature festival to be held here in Fremantle,
Western Australia. And it's called the Totally Lit Festival. And
I'd like to welcome Sharon to the studio now. Hi, Sharon.

S3 (05:28):
Oh good morning Simon.

S1 (05:30):
Now, the first thing I'd like to start with is
something a bit fun. I'm really pleased and enjoyed that.
You have a literature festival and obviously with the literature
festival you're good at playing with words, and you've used
the word lit in the title of your festival as
a slang word. It gets used in many circles by

(05:50):
people much younger than me and much cooler and and
so forth. Was that deliberate or just accidental?

S3 (05:57):
No, no, it was it was deliberate. It actually took
us a very long time to come up with the
name for the festival. We we spent months, you know,
talking about it and thinking about it and playing with
different possibilities. And because the festival is located in Fremantle.
You know, we played around with ideas to do with
the port. And at one stage, you know, serial port

(06:19):
was was one of the possible titles, but that got
rejected quite quickly. And there were there were several possible
names for the festival that we went through. And so
we started playing with the idea of lit. And then Andrew,
the festival production manager, said, well, it's totally lit, isn't it?
And we all just went, oh, that's it. That's that's

(06:41):
the perfect name. And of course it embodies a lot
of different meanings. Um, yeah. You know, in, in general
usage it means awesome, extraordinary. It could mean illuminated literature.
So all of those things are sort of encompassed in,
in this.

S1 (06:56):
Well, we just looked it up.

S3 (06:57):
On the title.

S1 (06:58):
We just looked it up on the website. And that's
the catch phrase you've got in your banner on the website.
Awesome illuminated literature. That's it.

S3 (07:04):
Like that. That's it. And of course, it means we
have this fantastic URL totally lit. So it couldn't get
much easier than that for people to remember.

S1 (07:14):
Now it's held in Fremantle. Tell us about the City
of Literature. I was curious about that. I've heard about
this before. So Fremantle is a city of literature?

S3 (07:24):
Yes. Basically where the idea for this festival came about
was actually nearly two years ago now. And a fairly
organic kind of process that started with me having been
in attendance at a conference that's organised by the Literature Centre,
which is an organisation based in Fremantle, and the conference
was called Celebrate Reading. And as the name suggests, it

(07:47):
was about celebrating books and promoting books, particularly in schools
and libraries for young people. So I was at this
event and it was being held at the Fremantle Town Hall. And,
you know, I basically looked around the venue and I
saw so many of the writers and publishers on stage
and in the audience who were resident Fremantle creators. And meanwhile,

(08:11):
you know, we had paper bird Books in the foyer
selling books, and the Literature Centre was hosting this event.
And I just looked around the room and thought, wow,
you know, this is such a collaboration of Fremantle creatives
and and literary organisations. And that just sort of triggered
the idea in my mind just how much Fremantle was

(08:33):
a city of literature. So at the moment, you know,
that's that's not an official title, if you like.

S1 (08:40):
Because I know there is an official UN type thing
called Some Cities and they get official titles. Yeah.

S3 (08:48):
That's right. And and that's the designation that we hope
to see Fremantle achieve in the not too distant future.
So that objective, along with launching this festival, kind of
go hand in hand. It's about putting that spotlight on
Fremantle as a city of literature and a place of
stories and and celebrating that, because it really is a

(09:12):
sort of unique credential. Yes. And an authentic one. So
we just speak about Fremantle as a city of literature.
And I believe that, you know, with the launch of
the festival and continuing to talk about it in that way,
it's going to gain momentum and position the city to
actually be able to to formalize that designation. So there's

(09:34):
there's two cities of literature, Unesco, City of Literature in
Australia at the moment. Melbourne and Hobart. And we think
it's time for Fremantle to join that club.

S1 (09:43):
Um, being a passionate Fremantle person myself, having lived near
the area and frequent the area nearly every weekend and
every week, um, I'm really glad that this festival is
in Perth, and I do recognise what you're saying about Fremantle,
and it has had a long reputation of being artistic
and arty, and obviously I could rattle off ten bands

(10:06):
just off the top of my head that have have
Fremantle connections, and Fremantle does pride itself on the music
scene in Fremantle, and I just remembered one Fremantle based
musician who is now an author as well, who wrote
one of his first books, and it was based in Fremantle,
and Tim Winton based a book in Fremantle. And so

(10:27):
it has had that connection. So well done, Sharon. I'm
really glad that you've got this up and running. So
can you tell us some of the key features of
the totally Lit festival that are coming up, and when's
it coming up?

S3 (10:38):
Okay. Well, the important information is that it's coming up
very soon. We launch on the 26th of September, and
the festival runs for two weeks until the 10th of October.
So it basically spans that spring school holiday period. So
it's a good opportunity for families to take advantage of
a lot of the activities that we have in the program.

(10:59):
And on that note, I just mentioned that a lot
of what's in the program is free.

S1 (11:05):
Okay, great.

S3 (11:05):
So we're really trying to make everything that we have
to offer as accessible as possible. Um, and even in
situations where the events are ticketed, they're, for the most part,
ticketed very affordably. In the $10 range, there's a lot
in this program. We've got over 40 individual events.

S1 (11:26):
Maybe you could just name three of the top things
that highlight the diversity in the program.

S3 (11:31):
Okay, well, that's kind of like asking me to name
my favorite children.

S1 (11:35):
Because there's a wide range of events, some aimed at kids,
some are like higher literacy, some are really academic based.

S3 (11:43):
Yeah, yeah. That's right. So I guess one of the
things to to highlight is that storytelling, oral storytelling plays
an equal part in this festival alongside written and published works. Um,
and we're also looking at writing in a variety of forms.
So it's not just in book form. So, uh, in

(12:04):
terms of oral storytelling, there's a whole range of different
programs available, but one of the key programs, of course,
is Jani Manjari, which is a series of evening storytelling
events featuring First Nations writers and creators and elders. So
that's taking place on Victoria Quay in a in a

(12:26):
site specific venue that we're actually creating for the event.

S1 (12:30):
Near the markets.

S3 (12:31):
Uh, yeah. It's actually in a spot called Workshop Lane,
which is almost adjacent to the Maritime Museum. So the
museum is really the your the landmark to look for
to find workshop Lane and Gage Rose is, is just
across from that site. So um, fortunately also Gage Roads

(12:51):
are supporting us and so they'll be providing food and,
and hospitality beverages and so on, um, in support of
these events so people can come along from 6:00, take
advantage of that gage roads hospitality. And then from 630
to 730 each evening we'll have different First Nations speakers.
The idea for the program was built around the concept of,

(13:14):
you know, yarning around the campfire. We can't, for obvious reasons,
have actual live fire, but we'll be creating an environment
where you can imagine that for yourself. And obviously, it's
a site of significance for indigenous people. With the river
and the ocean meeting. That's a significant.

S1 (13:35):
It was what? Bathers beach was a meeting place, wasn't it?

S3 (13:38):
It was. Yeah. So yeah, there's yarning Manjeri. We've also,
as you said, got a more academic but still very
accessible program based on science writing called Quantum Words. That
program will happen over one day at the Maritime Museum.
4th of October. And there's a range of conversations taking
place in that program that range from the science of

(14:00):
belief and why we believe the things that we do,
particularly in an age of AI and fake news and
conspiracy theories. Conversations around coastal erosion and the human rights
issues associated with that problem as well as, you know,
the the science and economic aspects of that. So there's

(14:23):
a whole range of of really broad conversations taking place
in quantum words with science writers and other experts. We've
also got another program happening at the Maritime Museum, which
we're calling Many Voices. And that's a series of conversations
that's really highlighting Fremantle's cultural diversity and its its migrant

(14:46):
heritage and, you know, contemporary diversity.

S1 (14:49):
So the Maritime Museum, utilizing, uh, the Theatrette lecture Theatre
they've got there.

S3 (14:55):
That's right. Yeah. So some, some programs are in the
lecture theatre and others are in the function room upstairs. So, um,
we have two very special evenings happening at the museum
with a local chef, very well known, um, author chef
Paul Yoda Iskov, aka Yoda and Chef Paul has co-authored

(15:19):
a book called Scale to Tail, which is looking at
seafood and sustainability and offering recipes.

S1 (15:29):
Yeah. So that's he's suggesting how to utilise the whole,
in this case, fish. Yeah, yeah.

S3 (15:35):
To be no waste.

S1 (15:36):
No waste. Yeah.

S3 (15:38):
Is is the concept um, and he's co-authored that with, uh,
an academic, Jordan Gertner, who's a marine biologist. So it's
a really great book, but it's also the basis for
what are going to be two really fantastic evenings in
the Maritime Museum, looking out over the working port and

(15:58):
enjoying a ten course degustation meal created by Chef Paul
on site. So, okay. And throughout the evening, um, Chef
Paul will be talking to guests about the inspiration behind
the various dishes and his approach.

S2 (16:17):
You're listening to In Plain Sight on Vision Australia Radio
with Simon Chong and me, Andrew Williams. Our guest this
week is Sharon Flindell, who is the curator and producer
of Totally Lit, a brand new literature festival in Fremantle.
Coming up from the 26th of September and running through
until the 10th of October. And now it's back to

(16:37):
Simon and Sharon.

S1 (16:40):
Now there's a few things on the programme that really
caught my attention, mostly because I recognise the names, and
one of them was Gillian O'Shaughnessy, who is well known
here in Perth, especially if you listen to the ABC
like I did. I believe she's presenting something about flash fiction,
and this concept of flash fiction really intrigues me. Can

(17:01):
you tell me a little bit about what that is?

S3 (17:03):
Absolutely. Um, flash is an increasingly popular form of, um,
of writing, and it Basically, it's to do with limiting
the number of words that you use to create really
impactful stories, told very concisely. In the case of the
flash fiction workshops that we're offering as part of Totally Lit,

(17:25):
we've set a word length of 100 words. And it
it may sound like, oh, it's only 100 words. And
so that should be really easy to do. But in fact,
it's a very, very skillful form of writing in order
to sort of create the story, the tension, the plot,
the backstory, and to tell it all in that very

(17:46):
limited number of words. Gillian's becoming, you know, a very
well recognized, published author of flash fiction. She's actually got
her own collection coming out next year, and she's already
conducted two workshops for us, both very popular, fully subscribed,

(18:07):
which was fantastic. And then we have one more flash
workshop coming up that will be led by Laura Keenan,
who's the publisher of. Night Parrot Press and Night Parrot
Press specialize in flash in particular. The idea of having
the workshops before the festival officially kicks off is that
it gives us time to consider the work that's produced

(18:29):
in the workshops and make a selection that we will
then be projecting onto the side of the Fremantle Ports Building.
So each night of the festival, we'll have a programme
of flash fiction that you can read on the side
of the building.

S1 (18:45):
So for those that don't know, the the Fremantle Ports
Building is pretty much adjacent to that site you were
talking about before, near the Maritime Museum.

S3 (18:55):
Yeah, that's right, it's on Victoria Quay. It's the iconic
multi-storey building where the port's run.

S1 (19:01):
The other piece on the program that really caught my
attention was the stories in the wheel, the.

S3 (19:08):
I know what you're talking about.

S1 (19:09):
Using the Ferris wheel in the Esplanade Park and people
get an author. Can you tell us about that?

S3 (19:16):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, there are two programs that we're
offering on the wheel. The first one is called Poetry
in Motion, and that will be an opportunity for a
maximum of four people at a time to step into
a Ferris wheel gondola with a local poet, award winning poet,
Caitlin Maling. And they can enjoy the views over Fremantle

(19:41):
and Fishing boat Harbour while they're enjoying the beautiful poetry
of Caitlin Maling, who will give them their own private
poetry readings. And then similarly, but different. The second program
is The Story Wheel, and that's a series of opportunities
for children to have a private storytime experience with a

(20:02):
local children's author.

S1 (20:04):
And there'll be several authors involved in this story in
the wheel.

S3 (20:07):
Yeah, we've got four children's Authors participating in that program,
including Meg McKinley, who's a Prime Minister's Award winning children's author,
and Deb Fitzpatrick, Susan Joy Lew and Jeanette Stampone. So
all fantastic authors of picture books for kids, and each

(20:31):
author is featuring a book for a particular age group. So,
you know, that whole program can accommodate children from 2
or 3 years old through to early teens.

S1 (20:43):
Talking about children's authors, another name that caught my attention
on the program, this was Mark Greenwood, and I forget
his collaborators name, who does the illustrations.

S3 (20:53):
For Le SAC.

S1 (20:54):
And I'm really keen to check that out. I really
like how you have drawn upon not only the local
people from the Fremantle area in Western Australia as well,
but the last person I want to talk about before
we have to quickly finish up is the attorney general, Tony. butI.
I find that fascinating, and I'm looking forward to finding

(21:16):
out more about that. Tell us a little bit about
what he will be presenting. Tony. butI at the festival.

S3 (21:22):
Well, Tony's a participant in the program. I mentioned earlier
many voices. And he'll be speaking with Gillian O'Shaughnessy about
a book entitled Alkira. Alkira is actually Tony's daughter, and
she was born with cri du chat syndrome. And the
book is just a really personal and powerful memoir of

(21:44):
their family's experience of alkira dealing with credit hat syndrome.
And you know how more broadly, how society addresses people
with disabilities and accommodates people with disabilities? It's a really
powerful personal story from Tony, who is, of course, just
an extraordinary author.

S1 (22:05):
All going well. We hope to talk to Tony Abbott
in the studio coming up in a few weeks time
to to talk about that book and and more, which
will be a great and a really exciting. Now we
have to sort of slowly wind up. Now, Sharon, is
there anything in particular that you'd like to tell the
audience about what the festival is and remind us again
where it is and when it is?

S3 (22:28):
When it is, is the 26th of September to the
10th of October, where it is, is Fremantle and.

S1 (22:35):
Numerous locations.

S3 (22:36):
Numerous locations throughout the city. As I've mentioned, Maritime Museum
and Victoria Quay are key locations, but we have events
happening in bars, in restaurants, we have culinary events happening.
We have loads of talks for people to choose from
and discussions for them to come along to with award

(22:57):
winning authors, with scientists and experts across a range of
different fields. We've got a lot of free activities, walking tours,
tours of the port. Um, Um, we're delving into Fremantle's
heritage with conversations like, if these walls could talk, what
stories would they tell? Uh, which is a conversation that's

(23:18):
happening at Emily Taylor. Uh, we have a special collaboration
with the Indonesian consulate. Oh, yes. Um, and I haven't
talked about this at all, but this year happens to
be the 35th anniversary of the signing of an MoU
between Western Australia and East Java. And Fremantle has a
friendship city relationship with Surabaya. So it seemed like a

(23:39):
really good opportunity to spotlight that as part of this festival.
So we're doing that in a season of films at
Luna on Essex, and we also have a visiting chef
from Surabaya who will be creating an extraordinary meal at
Emily Taylor Restaurant.

S1 (23:57):
Oh, nice.

S3 (23:57):
Uh, built around stories that he has written to connect
Western Australia to Indonesia. And we also have a visiting
Indonesian journalist who writes for the Jakarta Post, and he's
joining the Quantum Words program at the Maritime Museum. He'll
be in a conversation with Sophie McNeill. I think I

(24:19):
mentioned this previously, our conversation regarding coastal erosion, which is
obviously a major issue for Indonesia as it is for
Western Australia and Croatia, will also be doing some activities
for UWA Institute of Advanced Studies while he's here.

S1 (24:35):
Now, it'd be remiss of me being on Vision Australia
radio to not ask, but you mentioned that a lot
of the, um, events are free and you've tried to
make them accessible as possible. Can you just briefly tell
us about some of the accommodations and arrangements you might
have for people with disabilities and other impairments?

S3 (24:54):
Well, the Maritime Museum is is a key, uh, for
a lot of our programs. And they have assisted listening
facilities as well as disabled access, of course. And nearly
all of the events that we're presenting are in in
venues that have that are accessible. There are 1 or
2 exceptions to that. And they were exceptions that we, uh,

(25:19):
we made because the buildings themselves were, uh, to the
actual events. So, for example, the story of the Sampson
family in Fremantle, which is an incredibly long story, um,
a sort of continuous story since the, the early 1800s.

S1 (25:37):
Hence why they've got so many names in Fremantle area.

S3 (25:41):
Exactly right. Exactly right. And the Sampson families had such a,
a sort of significant impact in, in many different ways
on Fremantle.

S1 (25:48):
But you've done what you can because we one of
the reasons I mentioned is Fremantle being a heritage city.
Some of the buildings aren't up to scratch. Well, no,
in the 21st century view for what accessibility should be.
But as long as we mention what is and what isn't,
and then that's great. And I like how you also
highlighted that some of the events are revolve around oral

(26:11):
storytelling and of course, being vision impaired myself, I will
find that most intriguing and most inviting. So you've got
something for everyone.

S3 (26:19):
Well, at the heart of this festival is words, basically,
and storytelling. And, you know, in that sense, because we've
tried to accommodate all ages and to to place activities
in locations that amplify the stories and create those resonances.

(26:44):
And so really trying to make it as accessible to
as many people as possible and in, in circumstances where
we can with enhanced those opportunities with, with the resources
that venues like the Maritime Museum can bring.

S1 (27:01):
Well, we'll finish up now. Sharon. Sharon, thanks very much
for coming in and telling us all about the totally
lit literature festival happening in Fremantle the next few weeks,
and I highly recommend coming down to Fremantle Town and
checking it out. It's always worth visiting Fremantle, by the way,
and I hope you get some enjoyment out of the

(27:21):
fabulous events that are on for the Totally Lit Literature Festival.
And thank you once again, Sharon, for coming in and
speaking with us today at Vision Australia Radio.

S3 (27:30):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

S1 (27:32):
Speak to you next time. And that's all we got
for this week, folks. Bye for now.

S2 (27:37):
That concludes in Plain Sight for this week. Join us
at the same time next week on Vision Australia Radio,
VA radio digital and online at VA Radio.com. You can
also listen on demand by searching for In Plain Sight
by Vision Australia Radio. Wherever you get your podcasts, or
ask your smart device to play in Plain sight by

(27:58):
Vision Australia Radio. Thanks for listening.

S4 (28:01):
Thank you.
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Are You A Charlotte?

In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.

Stuff You Should Know

Stuff You Should Know

If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.

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